Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society - by Shaffer & Barrows

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

The year is 1946.  Juliet Aston, a writer looking for her next book subject, finds herself "gloomier than she ever was during the war."  Quite out of the blue she finds her subject, one  that will change her life, with the arrival of a letter from a member of a book club in Guernsey, a British Channel island occupied by the Nazis during the war.

Discussion Schedule: Feb. 1-7   *Letters -- January 8, 1946 - March 1, 1946 Feb. 8-14    *Letters -- March 2, 1946 - May 13, 1946 Feb. 15-21   *Letters -- May 14, 1946 - July 15, 1946 Feb. 22-28     *Letters -- July 17, 1946 - Sept. 17, 1946

Feb. 15-21    Letters -- May 14, 1946 - July 15, 1946

1.  How had the Islanders adapted to the presence of the volatile German soldiers,  sometimes friendly,  sometimes brutal?   Can the Occupation soldiers be trusted?  Ever?
2.  What do you think of the Guernsey girls who took favors from the Germans and turned in John Booker for a new lipstick?  Can you see Elizabeth McKenna falling in love with one of the  them?
3. Is Elizabeth MeKenna a believable character to you?  Do you have a favorite "Elizabeth"  anecdote?
4. What did you think of  Mark's reasons for believing he and Juliet are right for one another?  Is it significant that she tells him not to come to Guernsey, but is delighted that Sidney is coming?
5. Why does Juliet think Dawsey looks like Charles Lamb?  Do you see  him as a possible "swain" for Juliet? 
6.  Can Isola slip an elixir into Sidney's coffee powerful enough to  overcome the obstacle between him and Juliet?  From Bronte to Austen in one cozy weekend with Sidney?
7. Is the name of the  "Dead Bride" game whichJuliet and Kit are playing significant to you?
8. What shocking news does Remy Girard's letter convey to the members of the literary society?   
9. Can you share the episodes that made you smile during this tragic period?

Related Links: Author's Biography; Visit Guernsey ;   A history of Guernsey during the German Occupation 1940 - 1941 ; Charles Lamb - Selected Essays ; the letters of Seneca

Discussion Leaders:  JoanP and Pedln

[pedln]

Welcome ivmfox.  We’re so glad you found us, and we’d love for you to stay – but that’s up to you,  for as Joan has said, we’re discussing the third section of the book and we don’t want to be spoilers for you.  My personal opinion is that this book is so rich in characterization, in communication, in its relationships to other books, that even knowing what’s going to happen (before you get there) would not spoil it for the reader.  I have read and re-read so many of the letters, and always seem to find something new.

Babi, I’m glad too, that we’re seeing both kinds of Germans.  Probably more of the “good” ones than the other kind.  Bunting, in Model Occupation points out that this was considered a “good billet” by most of the German troops sent there.  Many had come from the horrors of the Russian front, so assignment to Guernsey was like being sent to an island paradise.  There were actually palm trees. And, when they first arrived, fruits and vegetables.  And a concerted effort, when they first arrived, to get along with the locals.  One soldier who was later interviewed told of his comma ding officer saying – (about all the flowers) “You may look at the flowers.  You may smell the flowers, under no circumstance can you pick the flowers.”   The only diabetic to survive the occupation was 14 years old, in the hospital .  The German doctor liked him and would do jigsaws with him.  The boy thought he was going to die and wanted to die at home, so he checked himself out. At home, a German soldier came to the door with insulin because the doctor had told him there was a diabetic boy there.  The soldier had been trying to find insulin for his mother in Cologne, but when he got it, Cologne had been bombed and his mother dead, so he gave it to the boy, who doled it out in small amounts and said it kept him alive for months.

About Elizabeth, yes, she’s believable, a very strong woman, willing to do what she believes is right,– nursing the Todt worker, getting Booker set up as Lord Tobias, staying with Jane until she has her baby, -- and fight against what she knows is wrong – like Adelaide scaring the children and the guard beating the prisoner.  She comes across as perhaps more determined, more focused than Juliet, but they are both prone to act first, think afterwards.

[Steph]

I was so sorry that my suspicions were correct. Actually for the stories sake, Elizabeth had to die.. I find her more of an ideal than a person though. There are always people in every situation who have the need to make others suffer.. I dont think it was lipstick as much as it was power though.

[JudeS]

For those who asked "The Book Thief" is by the Australian author Marcus Zusak. His book is unforgettable ! Its about an orphaned Christain girl who steals books and the people who she meets along the way.  It would be a good read for this group if you can stand another look at WW2 and Germany under Hitler.

Adodonnie:
The Bookseller of Kabul is on my want to read list.  Thanks for reminding me to look for it sooner than planned.

A favorite letter?  Well I chose one that spoke to me because of the effect an understanding person (Sidney) can have on another human being (Isola).  It was magical how she awakened to Jane Austen and the fun of a Cuckoo Clock.  She had never experienced being treated with so much respect and indeed took seriously the secret Sidney gave into her keeping.  The fact that her parrot bit the head off of the Cuckoo out of jealousy struck me as such a moment of reality that, for me because  of this scene , Guernsey itself came alive . (Letter 8th of July Isola to Sidney)

Jude

Jude

[bellamarie]

JoanP,

Do any of you know women like Elizabeth?
What are her human frailties?  Are they treated as weaknesses or as  admirable virtues?

The one person I knew, that is most like Elizabeth, is my Mom.  She was a lady who was there for everyone, even when she had seven children of her own to raise, she took in three nieces needing a home.  We were so poor, yet she would take in any stray relative or friend in need.  She nurtured the sick, she comforted the mourning, she could make you laugh on a dime with her quirky wives tales, she would stand up to anyone, regardless of her small size.  She was a spitefire if you angered her.  She was as gentle as a lamb, when caring for a sick person, and much like Elizabeth, she would be honest and tell you its gonna hurt, but let's get it over with. Everyone knew they could depend on her in a time of need.  She would be alive today, had she cared more about her own well being, instead of so much of others.  She was a true example to what a Christian should be, and lived the Beatitudes here entire life.  She would be friends with people in our small town, that others would not have approved of, because she took the time,to see each individual for who they were, on the inside.  Her human frailties, were probably, she allowed herself to become involved, due to the unfair treatment of others, and also allowed her emotions over ride good judgements at times.  Yes, I believe they were weaknesses in a way there were times she needed to say no, although many, admired her for her frailties because they knew how much she denied herself and her own children to do for others. 
I many times asked her to take better care of herself, and let others figure things out for themselves.  She wouldn't hear of it, and in her last days, when I was feeding her soup, she cried, and said, " I never wanted to ever let anyone see me like this,  in this situation as weak and needing to be fed."  I told her, "You cared for me as a child, teen and adult, when I was very sick, it is only fair,you allow me to do this for you now."

She was my Elizabeth.  Both Elizabeth and my Mom, emulated Mother Teresa.

[FlaJean]

I finally received and read "Guernsey" as I couldn't renew it due to the reserve list.  It was such a satisfying read.  I can't say that I've ever met anyone like Elizabeth but have known several Juliets.

[JoanP]

Good morning!

After learning of Elizabeth's final days, did you feel as I did that the story was over?  Think of the effect on the members of the literary society who carried on their book club meetings, attracting new members, caring for Kit, all the while waiting for news of Elizabeth and her return.  How devastating this must have been for them, how deflating.  But life must go on - and there is Kit, now an orphan.  Officially?

Steph  writes -

"for the story's sake, Elizabeth had to die"

The more I think about it, the more I agree.   

"I find her more of an ideal than a person though."

  Is Eliabeth meant to be an ideal character, unlike most of us?

 Pedln  -

she’s believable, a very strong woman, willing to do what she believes is right,  and fight against what she knows is wrong.

Bellamarie sees a similarity between her own mother and Elizabeth - 

she allowed her emotions over ride good judgements at times.  Yes, I believe they were weaknesses.  There were times she needed to say no, although many, admired her for her frailties
 

FlaJean - 

"I can't say that I've ever met anyone like Elizabeth but have known several Juliets."

We've noted earlier the similarities between Elizabath and Juliet - do you see differences?

I keep forgetting that Juliet spent the war years  in London - her home was bombed, she lost  her prized possessions - her books!  And yet we hear nothing more of what she experienced. Does she appear traumatized to you?

Traudee, I didn't remember that Christian Hellman was a field surgeion.  On the island of Guernsey - during war time.     Don't you find this a bit odd?  Were we told why he has been sent to  this "island paradise"  - as Bunting described this  "good billet" in Model Occupation?

Jude -

Australian author Marcus Zusak's "The Book Thief"

sounds fascinating - about an orphaned girl who steals books.  A recent publication? (Which reminds me, where is our own Australian girl, Gum?

We must carry on, without Elizabeth, for Kit's sake. There is much more to come.

[bellamarie]

There does not seem to be much discussion this week.  Has everyone finished the book, and trying not to give anything away?  After reading Elizabeth was killed, and the other sad parts, it has been difficult for me to collect my thoughts.  

JoanP, 

After learning of Elizabeth's final days, did you feel as I did that the story was over? 

We were posting at the same time JoanP.  I guess you put it into the words I felt.  I do feel like the story has ended.  I am fighting the urge, to just go ahead and read the ending pages now, as others have.

I have been missing our "tooth fairy" Gumtree also.

JoanP,

"We must carry on, without Elizabeth, for Kit's sake. There is much more to come."

It may be better if we did finish the last pages, so we can see the "much more", these pages seem to have left everyone in a bit of a slump. 

We hit such highs in our discussion, with searching for clues, the author, etc. and then contacting Annie and learning things about how and why they wrote the book, I fear it may have taken the lustre out of our curiosty and conversations.  I have learned a huge lesson, I won't go searching for the author and answers before I finish a book from now on.  So....in saying this, I am going to go ahead and finish the book since there doesn't seem to be much discussion in these pages.

[Steph]

Oh me, I dont feel the story is over.. Just Elizabeths part of it. Juliet is becoming the kind of person I would like to know finally. A last parting from Mark and she will have become quite a human being. Kit never knew her mother except for stories, so I suspect she is not as affected as another child might have been.
no, no Elizabeths in my life.. What I really want in my life is Isola.. Quirky has alway been my aim. My mother was a terror. She loved and hated with the same intensity. A typical southerner of her era.. Prejudiced in the abstract.. loving and kind in the individual. Lots of friends... clubs..and after widowhood, a real passion for interesting men.. Ah me.. no Elizabeth, but I treasured her just the same.

[Babi]

  We're not at the end yet; this is only week three.  Let's not miss some of the delights of this section, because it ends so sadly with the news of Elizabeth's death.  Even receiving that news brings in a new character that Elizabeth befriended, who now needs the help of the Guernsey friends.

  I enjoyed how everyone pitches in to get a house ready for Juliet.  Wouldn’t that make you feel warm and welcome?  Another big grin: Dawsey’s ‘job’ is keeping Isola alive, as that doughty woman climbed up on the roof to check for loose tiles!  Then, Juliet arrives in Guernsey and recognizes people from their letters.  The woman in the ‘mad’ hat, purple shawl and glittering brooch, looking in the wrong direction, has to be Isola. The man standing with the tall boy by his side must be Eban and Eli. 
  I haven’t received a written letter in years.  I certainly don’t correspond with anyone enough to get an idea of what they would look like.  I wonder if anyone does, anymore.

5/27  Juliet to Sidney   A concise description of Guernsey:  “..fields, woods, hedgerows, dells, manors, dolmens, wild cliffs, witches corners, Tudor barns and Norman cottages of stone.”Oh, I long to see it all.  Whatever is a ‘witches corner’?!! 

Okay, I found this picture of a ‘witches corner’,  but I still don’t understand what it is. Can someone else please tell me?

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/steve.thompson90/Photo_page_271.htm

[pedln]

Oh Bellamarie, not to worry.  There’s plenty left here before we get to the final section. (I’m on my third reading of this book and am still finding new in every section..  The real problem will come in June when my f2f group discusses it, after the paperback release.There is just not enough time to talk about it in one afternoon.)  I’ll bet you have your own questions from the reading for this week.  Don’t hesitate to ask away. 

In the meantime, I’ll have to agree with Steph and Babi

Oh me, I dont feel the story is over.. Just Elizabeths part of it. Juliet is becoming the kind of person I would like to know finally.

  from Steph

Let's not miss some of the delights of this section, because it ends so sadly with the news of Elizabeth's death.  Even receiving that news brings in a new character that Elizabeth befriended, who now needs the help of the Guernsey friends.

from Babi

The man standing with the tall boy by his side must be Eban and Eli.

from Babi

There have been a couple of times when Juliet mentions Kit riding on Eli’s shoulders, and I can’t help but think, what a sturdy boy he has become.  It’s sad that Eben missed his growing up years, but he must take joy in the boy before him now.

Babi, you’ve sent me on a goose chase, but not a wild one,  trying to find the definition of Witches Corner.  (Great picture.  I’ve been to Maastrict – years ago, a lovely city, but I never heard of a Witches Corner).

Has anyone heard from Joan Roberts?  She was going to get that book about Ebeneezer Le Page.

[JudeS]

Babi

In answer to your query about handwritten letters-
Recently I recieved a four page lwtter from a 95 year old lady .  the penmanship was beautiful and the ideas sparkling. She lives in a retirement home and attends a weekly book group in which non-fiction is discussed. When I mentioned fiction she told me she had read very little but "Great Expectations" was a work that had influenced her life.  Having recently read "Mister Pip" by Lloyd Jones I sent her my copy since this is a book about a young girl whose life is deeply effected by the same book. My acquaintance is by profession a bio-medical researcher and she researched aspects of the book I never thought of.  She also convinced her book club to read this novel and hopes that perhaps they may even attempt Great Expectations itself.

Bellamarie

"The Book Thief "is a fairly new novel , published just a year or two ago.  It won a number of prizes.

Jude

[pedln]

Jude, that’s fascinating, and how nice for you to have such an interesting person to correspond with.  I read and enjoyed Mr. Pip and would like to know what she researched from the book. Some time ago I checked out The Good Thief from the library, but for some reason did not pursue.  After seeing your comments about it I think I will try it again; at least spend more time getting started. Sometimes mood plays a part in what we read or don’t read.

Babi, I missed your question about letters.  About the only handwritten letters I get are from the grandchildren writing the obligatory thank yous.  I must admit they do get quite creative.  The only other person I know who writes and receives regularly is my friend Bonnie who doesn’t have and doesn’t want a computer.  She keeps up with her family, weekly letters to her son, and of course, they must reply in kind.  No email there.

[bellamarie]

I think nothing can take the place of handwritten letters.  There are the strokes of the pen, that show a person's personality, that is lacking in keystrokes.  My 13 yr. old grand daughter will be making her Confirmation, at the end of March, and has asked me to be her sponsor.  I received a letter from the church, explaining they want sponsors to write a letter to the confirmant. telling them about their relationship and faith journey.  I immediately went to the computer to compose the letter.  After reading Babi's post, I have decided to hand write it to her.  I will get lovely stationary, and a special pen, just for this occasion. 

[bellamarie]

One question I have is...

Do you think the author timed the news, of Elizabeth's death, too soon after Juliet's arrival? 

I was just enjoying the excitement of Juliet finally arriving in Guernsey, getting to know everyone, and Kit accepting Juliet, when I turn the page and there it is!  I suspected all along Elizabeth would be dead, I guess I just was not prepared, to learn of it so quickly after Juliet arrived.  It seems I had a difficult time going from, Juliet arriving, to the very dark, sad, painful events that followed her arrival, so quickly.

My favorite part of these pages were: "I've just received a wonderful package from your new secretary....She found Kit two books of paper dolls_ and not just any  paper dolls either.  She found Greta Garbo and Gone With the Wind paper dolls_pages of lovely gowns, furs, hats,boas__oh, they are wonderful."

I am sensing Juliet is having the time of her life, getting to experience, playing with Kit.

[bellamarie]

pedln,

Has anyone heard from Joan Roberts?  She was going to get that book about Ebeneezer Le Page.

I fear we have lost track of a few of our members.  Gumtree..."tooth fairy"....are you lurking?   Is everyone just lurking. waiting to jump in once we are at the last week, since they have already finished the book?  I'm feeling a bit lonely here, like talking to myself.  lolol            

[JoanP]

Oh me, I don't feel the story is over.. Just Elizabeth's part of it.

  I agree, Steph - and let's face it, Elizabeth's stroy  has been over for a long time...since before Juliet started receiving the letters from Guernsey.

Babi, every day I check the mail for "first class, " remembering how I used to look forward to the sound of the mailman. I suppose we have to just appreciate email now and not look back to the "good old days."   These letters really bring back the memories, though.  Don't they?

I love the excitement and the anticipation when news spread that Juliet was actually going to come to Guernsey!  Especially Isola -  those were hilarious scenes you have described, Babi.  I'll bet we all know - and love at least one Isola.

Do you think the author timed the news, of Elizabeth's death, too soon after Juliet's arrival? Bella

We all feared that something had happened to Elizabeth - the war over for some time.  I think the news could have come at any time...even before Juliet's arrival.  By the time the news comes to Guernsey, Kit is warming up to Juliet.  Don't you think Juliet is a comfort to these Islanders?  She seems to have made herself right at home.  Everyone is so gratified for the splendid article she wrote about how the Guernsians held on during the occupation with the help of the literary society.


This morning Annie Barrows sent along a response to Pedln's question -
"I understand that you and your aunt both read widely about Guernsey and
World War II, and that Ms Shaffer visited Guernsey in 1976.  Did either of
you visit again?  Also, one of our members, spurred on by your book, has
borrowed Madeleine Bunting's Model Occupation from her library and noted one
of the sources included there was a diary kept by a school teacher.  She
would like to know if you were able to get hold of primary source material
like diaries, letters, or even participate in interviews with Guernsey
residents.   So many in our group would like to learn more about the occupied
islands and would appreciate it if you could point them in the right
direction."

Here is Annie's response, which we are currently saving along with all earlier responses:
 

Actually, the family consensus is that Mary Ann visited Guernsey in 1980. She never put the year on her letters, so we thought for a while she had been to the Channel Islands during her first English trip, in 76. She only went there that once. I went to Guernsey last summer, primarily to see if all the stuff I made up was correct. As for primary sources, I read a collection of interviews in a book called Liberation! and The Diary of the German Occupation of Guernsey by JC Sauvery. The other books I used were secondary (Island Madness). The Occupation government did not allow letters to leave or enter the island, so there are only a few of the Red Cross postcards from the period. I didn't interview any Islanders.

I like to think that the actual residents of the occupied islands had such a wonderful distraction as the reading, if not the joys and comfort of a  literary circle, don't you?    I like the complement  Dr. Stubbins paid to Juliet - With her article in the Times - she had made "distraction" an honorable term.  Why would he say that?

 Do you feel the word "distraction" is a dishonorable term  for passing one's time?  I am interested to hear  more stories about how the isolated Islanders really got through the dreary years of occupation and intend to follow up on the sources mentioned here.  I can see why Juliet feels there is a book here somewhere.




 

[bellamarie]

JoanP, Since you are keeping reponses from Annie, I thought you might add this to your collection. 

bellamarie to Annie:

"I don't know how the book ends as of today, but, what is the possibility of you writing Juliet's book, and bring Elizabeth's memorial to us readers?"  I was a bit melancholy after reading Elizabeth was killed, and the thought of a sequel cheered me up.

Annie to bellamarie:

Dear Marie--
I'm so sorry to disappoint a melancholy reader, but I'm afraid there won't be a sequel to Guernsey. As the story originated with my aunt, I feel that a sequel would be an invasion. I am, however, writing another novel for grown-ups. It's not set in the Channel Islands during the war, but West Virginia in 1938.
 
Cheers,
Annie

[bellamarie]

JoanP,

Elizabeth's story has been over for a long time...since before Juliet started receiving the letters from Guernsey.

I'm not so sure I agree, "Elizabeth's story is over", ... or "has been over for a long time....since before Juliet started receiving the letters from Guernsey."

I don't think Sidney feels its over either.  On the contrary, I feel he is feeling her story needs to be told.  Elizabeth's life is over, but her story, has not even yet been told.  In these last few pages, of this week's assignment, we are just now hearing from people, that knew Elizabeth, that were not even a part of the prior letters.  The pieces of the puzzle are just now beginning to fit into place, that will tell Elizabeth's story.  There can be no closure, until all the pieces are revealed, by all that knew her and can complete her story, which I believe Mary Ann is doing in these pages and the ones to follow.  Even Elizabeth's drawings, that Juliet found, are alive, and telling parts of her story.

Does anyone else have odd feelings about Juliet living in Elizabeth's cottage, going through her personal belongings, attaching herself to Kit, and resuming the place of Elizabeth?  Although she is comforting the islanders, who were near and dear to Elizabeth, I feel in a sense she has assumed and invaded Elizabeth's privacy and life.  It is one thing to come to the island to write articles about the life of Guernsey, and to become friends with those involved, but I just feel odd, she has stepped right into Elizabeth's life. 

[pedln]

Bellamarie, thank you for posting your response from Annie about forthcoming books.  I can well understand her points.  And it would really be sad if a sequel came out and was a disappointment because it didn’t live up to the original.  That has happened.  I am glad to hear that she is writing a novel for adults,  West Virginia in 1938.  Isn’t her and Mary Ann’s family from West Virginia?

More later.  I just stopped in to scan and dinner beckons.

[JudeS]

Hi Pedlin

Here we are talking about another book (Mister Pip) in the midst of our discussion of GLPPPS.  But how strange that both books are about small islands and very brutal happenings on those islands . In answer to your question my friend figured out approximately where the island was in relation to Australia and who the brutes were-the copper miners owners private army.

To return to the book in hand and in answer to one of the questions i.e. Is Dawsey a possible swain for Juliette?
As the book advances Dawsey takes on more and more flesh and bones and goodness of character .  However he is still very different from the sophisticates she has known. If his depth of character be measured against the former men in her life then his maturity may be the thing that tips the weight in his favor. A lot depends on whether Juliette is ready to settle down on this island which she adores.  However I am still not sure she adores it as a permanent place or the way we fall in love with an exciting and beautiful place which we visit for a long awaited vacation.
Next week all will be revealed.

Jude

[BarbStAubrey]

Jude seems to me Mr. Pep was one of the last 5 contenders for the Booker last year I remember being so pleased with myself because I did read 3 of the 5 – fascinating how the character of Pep was woven into that story wasn't it. Another story that included the horrors that man can inflict upon man.

OK – wasn't sure I could share my views in this discussion but decided to step into the water – as long as we can accept there is no “right” view - that as many an author will say - once the book is in the hands of the public it is no longer their story because we as readers all have our own history of experiences that we bring to what we read. As well, many authors have shared with us how they were astounded at the connections that we readers were able to make that further the point of their story that while writing, was not on their minds. And so with that said, I would like to add my two cents.

Someone in a more recent post said something to the affect that they wondered if the story was over with the death of Elizabeth – and I think it was Bellemaria who was emotionally caught over seeing Elizabeth acting out protective kindness – Well – that got me looking at Elizabeth in a different light – I am not sure she acted out of kindness or even protection of the women prisoner –

I see it as if Elizabeth snapped and no longer could tolerate cruel injustice – that led me to re-examine the other examples of her taking care of someone – I see her reacting to any sign of weakness or victimization as well as to others encouraging weakness or fear – she bucks-up Eli by getting him to spit twice on the medal - she does not just gently pin it on him as if he was a rabbit to be cuddled – she slaps Adelaide for preaching fear into the children – when we first read of the Literary society it is Elizabeth who is not going to be cowered by the Germans but with spunk come up with a bold rational for their after curfew outing.

Well that was the unraveling of the story for me – all of sudden what came to mind was ‘Rule Britannia’ – Elizabeth believed in the courage of lions – I looked to the story again and she is the child of a housekeeper who is brought up with all the advantages of a ruling class Englishwomen, that typically are characterized as intelligent, sensitive, sympathetic - another thought came to mind - Elizabeth is about justice not charity –

Charity responds to an immediate need, is socially acceptable, lauded by politicians and celebrities. Charity can buy you votes, a good feeling.

Justice promotes change in institutions, policies and systems; is socially, politically, and economically the biggest risk you'll ever take. Social justice can get you shot.

And so with that, I had to ask what is this story really about – what metaphors and themes are we dealing with in this story.

We may like or not the characters or see them differently than what has become common mythology but we know a story that has legs – that will last - is more than about likeable or admirable characters acting out a storyline.

[BarbStAubrey]

I  see the story of Elizabeth inside the story of Juliet – Stanley may have suggested making the story about Elizabeth but the story is really about Juliet on a quest writing about these folks – their losses - a portrait of, including a portrait of herself, replacing a doomed personal life with a meaningful participation in a political world, in a community.     

I look at some of the metaphors in this story – both Juliet and Elizabeth have the advantage of ruling class childhood in Britain and both act out childhood independence that continues in their adult life. They remind you of Conrad’s Emilia Gould, Britain incarnate - the ideal civilized woman who deny fatigue and substitute sadness for energy.

Hate to revisit the section about Rob with so many strong opinions of his behavior shared earlier in this discussion but I must share another perspective –

First of all I roared laughing while reading that bit – two thoughts – I had only shared a discussion the night before with someone I know and love, who was being outraged over all the money and attention that a University puts into Football and Basketball when in her mind the University should be about the purity of education using the mind, not athleticism. And so here, we had the classic argument played out with books versus athletic trophies – a riot –

And then the second thought was - had any woman joined him in his house and while he was out she packed up half his workshop tools so she could have a place for her Christmas wrapping ribbons and paper you could hear it now – and rightly, since there was no asking what tool [books] were important – the packing was done with no care for what the owner would choose to cull from their collection.

But more, it tipped us that he was joining her in HER house – and so where that scenario showed us she was all about books and to damage or discard a book was as if you blackened her eye or pulled out her fingernails, the books were more important than a relationship. Which said her identity was more important and she was going to protect her turf so that her identity was not moved aside.

And so like Elizabeth, she snapped when it was about protecting what she believed regardless of the consequences – Now we may argue over her choice of what she protected but from the story we know that she and her books were one and the same – we may have handled it differently but let’s see what this says about the theme of the story because that is what we are trying to identify.

Now Mark was an easy one for me to catch – my cousin married an English Sailor just before we entered the war and she lived out the war in England – she came back with her 5 month old son in ’49, when I was a Jurnior in high school - Ken, her husband had to wait on the quota and came two years later with their daughter who was just past 2 when Florence left England – at that time age 2 was the break off to travel on a mother’s passport.

I remember baby sitting and seeing Florence package boxes of food and soap that when I questioned I was shocked to learn they were still experiencing the shortages we experienced during the war but more, I learned of the average English view of Americans – we were all spit and polish but we were not supposed to have the courage and stamina since we did not experience bombs falling on us – they were upset because the GI came with gifts from the canteen but took the girls and even married them when the English boys were tired and worn fighting in Africa – and so where the Yanks were a blessing they were also considered lightweights who charmed themselves  into the community and took the girls from under the helpless noises of the Tommies – then, after the war, because Eisenhower was the allied leader rather than Montgomery, there was this whole concept that the Americans liked to tell the Europeans how it is done.

And so it was easy for me to see that Mark cast as a polished, wealthy, American was saying something about his character since this was an English story – That he would not be marrying Juliet because if he did the story would be a slap in the face to the courage and pride of Britain. More and more I am seeing a theme here that is the courage of Britain.

Then it hit me – of course, we are told the whole book in the first paragraph of a story. Back to page one – I would say in this book it is all on the first page rather then limited to the first paragraph.

There it is – indomitable, regardless of rations, a celebration demands a level of civilized cuisine and the ingredients were procured with money relegated to a lesser value then keeping the proper entremets for the celebration – it is about English Foibles under extraordinary conditions – these are not English Bunny feel good stories and characters, even if the countryside, the location of the stories, is the stuff of Beatrix Potter.

[BarbStAubrey]

I've more I would like to share but later tomorrow - this invite I thought delightful - Seaton Cove is a place in Austin where interesting discussions are scheduled and an Austin lawyer who is a political activist and poet will chair for two Thursday's in a row a luncheon meeting to discuss The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society from a different perspective.

The invitation is --

A serendipitous discovery in a used book leads to the unearthing of a community of like-minded literary eccentrics on an Island in post WWII England.  This enchanting book, by Mary Ann Shaffer and Annie Barrows, will lead us into a light-hearted discussion of how we each found our own love of literature and how it has strengthened our spiritual quests.  That and an exercise in our own letter writing will make for two delightful luncheons of discussion and reflection.

 

[Steph]

I envy you the live discussion of Guernsey. I love our methods of communication, but it would be fun to be in a give and take live one.
I know that I must be a solo one, but I do think about all of you, the people now of Seniorlearn.. I put dream faces and /or personalities just from your posts. I know how much fun it was when we went to Charleston to the beach for the week. Then we got to put faces on all of these people you think you know so well..
Personal letters in the mail.. Cant remember the last one. Probably thank yous and things.

[JoanP]

Good morning,  Early Birds!   Barbara, when do you sleep!?  You left us so much to think about today in your long meaty post!

Steph - can you imagine the spirited conversation in a give and take discussion of this book!  Do you think everyone would be talking at once?  I do remember some of the face to face SN gatherings in the past. It was really weird at first to find yourself talking to someone you've never laid eyes on - a totally unfamiliar face, and yet someone you "know" very well from daily online conversation.  It doesn't take long to get over the "strange face" part, does it?  I guess you have to leave behind the "dream faces" and connect with the familiar personalities...

Juliet wondered what the Guernsey letter writers would look like...if Dawsey would like like Charles Lamb. What did she mean?   She did send Dawsey a portrait of CL, but did she expect him to physically resemble the writer? I think her "dream face" and his actual face was exactly what she expected.
OK, back to Barbara and Jude's late night posts...need to reread them carefully...and if I forget, thank you much for the early morning coffee chat!

ps.  Barbara. are up going to accept the invite?  I certainly hope so!  Would love it if you returned here, or to the Fiction discussion and give us a report as to how it went. 

"...a light-hearted discussion of how we each found our own love of literature and how it has strengthened our spiritual quests." 

This would be an interesting topic for us right  here, don't you think?

[JoanP]

Is Dawsey a possible swain for Juliette?

Jude..."As the book advances Dawsey takes on more and more flesh and bones and goodness of character."  I'm wondering if this means that Juliet is attracted to him?  Is she finding something in Dawsey that is lacking in Mark.  Poor Mark, he doesn't stand a chance does he?  Did you sort of recoil at all his reasons why he and Juliet were "right" together?

Here's something I had stored in the back of my mind...about Charles Lamb and Dawsey.
For whatever reason, he and his sister Mary adopted an orphan girl, Emma Isola. 
Charles never married - and when Mary died, he raised Emma Isola himself - alone.
Clearly our authors have examined this bit of Lamb's biography.  I have wondered if it foreshadows a similar situration with Dawsey and Kit?

Jude, I'm not sure that Juliet wants to stay in Guernsey either, once her book is finsihed.  Is she a London girl at heart?  I'm quite sure she doesn't want to go to NY with Mark, but she is fitting right into the Guernsey society isn't she?

Does anyone else have odd feelings about Juliet living in Elizabeth's cottage, ...going through her personal belongings she has assumed and invaded Elizabeth's privacy and life? Bellamarie

I agree that Juliet has filled a void Elizabeth has left in the lives of the members ...and Kit.  But I don't think it was unusual that she would be interested in Elizabeth's books and drawings that are in the cottage.  She is a writer, after all.    Plus, it was not Juliet's idea that she rent Elizabeth's cottage - the Islanders had arranged it for her...

[JoanP]

"I see the story of Elizabeth inside the story of Juliet – Stanley may have suggested making the story about Elizabeth but the story is really about Juliet on a quest writing about these folks – their losses - a portrait of, including a portrait of herself, replacing a doomed personal life with a meaningful participation in a political world, in a community."   Barbara

   
I don't think I'm going to comment on everything that Barbara has posted concerning Elizabeth  in the wee small hours - will leave that to all of you.

But I would like to pose a question for your consideration:
At this point in the story, what do you see as the authors' main purpose/focus in writing this book -

a.  Elizabeth's role in protecting and sustaining the oppressed during the occupation.
b.  Juliet's role in writing a book about how  individuals coped with the Occupation
c.  The members of the literary society and how reading and discussing books sustained them during the days of the occupation and afterwards.
d.  Other

[Babi]

JUDE, I envy your correspondent with the 'beautiful handwriting'.  Mine was never beautiful, but it was at least legible before I learned to type.  Over the years, I used the typewriter, then the computer, more and more, until now I have lost all legibility.  I want to write as fast as I can type, and the results are really bad. 

Bellamarie, I love your plan to give your granddaughter a handwritten letter for the occasion of her confirmation.  I'm sure she will treasure it.
  On you comment:

"she (juliet) has stepped right into Elizabeth's life."

  I did feel that Juliet was beginning to help fill the void that Elizabeth left amond her friends in Guernsey.  I was glad, tho', that JoanP pointed out that it was the islanders who decided to prepare her cottage for Juliet's visit; it wasn't Juliet's idea.

"Elizabeth is about justice not charity".

  I think you are right about this, Barb. Elizabeth was kind and she was protective, but it was cruelty and injustice that brought the strongest reaction. I think you are also right that fighting against injustice can make you a target. There is more than one example of that in history.

  I think it was Sidney's reaction to news of Elizabeth's death that I most identified with, as the most appropriate response from someone other than her close friends...  “God damn. Oh, God damn.”

[Gumtree]

JoanP Thanks for the wake-up call. I've been lurking about but haven't had the energy to get involved in the discussion since the bushfire disaster took over Australia's  heart and mind.  - we have family in the affected areas and though they are all safe it has been a worrying time. - and fires are still burning over large areas. It has been a very emotional and draining period as the legion of heart rending stories unfold of those who lost everything they owned, of those who only just escaped the firestorm  - and of the 200+  souls who didn't make it.

The discussion here has really taken off and raised so many questions and issues. Wonderful to have the contact and input from Annie Burrows.

You ask : what was the authors' main purpose/focus in writing this book.

I believe the points  you pose at a. b. & c. are important elements in the book but I don't see them as being the primary aim of the author.

I think it is more likely that Mary Ann's fundamental purpose was to bring the fact of the German Occupation of Guernsey to the attention of a new audience such as ourselves. I believe she felt this little piece of WWII history was neglected in literature and needed to be aired - and she chose the medium of an epistolary novel to tell the tale.

That she achieved this end is evident in our discussion where posters have made it clear that they formerly knew little or nothing of Guernsey's Occupation by Germans and perhaps less still of Guernsey
 itself.

I see Elizabeth's role in 'protecting and sustaining the oppressed' to be representative of many on Guernsey and elsewhere who undertook incredible acts of self-sacrifice to help  and protect their fellows in wartime .

To me Juliet's role in writing a book about how individuals coped is one of the devices Mary Ann uses to tell her story. Juliet and Elizabeth are very alike - superficially they slap faces and throw teapots -  but fundamentally they are alike in that neither has a real home. I think they both need to be needed are are seaching for a place in which to belong. Elizabeth found her place with Christian Hellman - I guess  Juliet is still a work in progress.

The literary society and their reading was an inspired masterstroke as it allowed Mary Ann to not only talk about some of her favourite authors and their works but to develop her characters in relation to their reading, She shows us how reading can change an individual and draws attention to the solace reading can bring in times of stress. Though I'd say she's preaching to the converted here at Seniorlearn!

 

Almost 1am - well it is, now -so  this 'tooth fairy' is off to bed. G'Nite all.

PS: The Book Thief mentioned above by JudeS would also make for a great discussion  - as would The Reader - both have much to say about reading.

 

[JudeS]

JoanP
In answer to your question about the meaning of this novel and the author's intentions. A book starts out as one thing and after a while gathers its own momentum and often includes ideas that the author hadn't planned at the outset. sometimes the characters themselves demand to say things that the author writes but is surprised by.

In my mind I see a parallel to a prisoner in a cell who has unfairly been jailed.  He knows that it is a terrible mistake but he still has to maintain himself through the time.  He will think mainly of these things:
The fight to regain his freedom

Reading Books that keep his courage alive and in which courage and justice are rewarded.

The loved ones he has left behind

If we move the idea of a single prisoner in his lonely cell to an island cut off from the world (no radio or newspapers) and we have an insulated society trying to cope.  Then FREEDOM! How do we cope with the changeover? How do we pick up the pieces based on all the things we learned during incarceration?

Perhaps as a child Shaffer read , as I did, the ultimate Island story: Robinson Crusoe. Here a man is isolated on an island   J
 and copes and hopes.  Then" Friday" appears and so much changes. Another human to share the fate and the pain and help find solutions.
Just as Robinson Crusoe got under my skin as a child so does this book  hold me.

Jude


 

[bellamarie]

Gumtree, I am so sorry to hear of your conditions and the losses of the people in Australia.  How terribly sad it must be.  Imagine, us going on about the desvastation of WW 11, and here you are experiencing such devastations and pain.  My prayers are with you and all of Australia.

JoanP,

I agree that Juliet has filled a void Elizabeth has left in the lives of the members ...and Kit.  But I don't think it was unusual that she would be interested in Elizabeth's books and drawings that are in the cottage.  She is a writer, after all.    Plus, it was not Juliet's idea that she rent Elizabeth's cottage - the Islanders had arranged it for her...

I'm aware the islanders decided for Juliet to stay in Elizabeth's cottage.  My concern, is , that she assumed Elizabeth's place almost instantly.  Being a writer, does not excuse her violating Elizabeth's personal things. My suspicions are, Juliet will not stay in Guernsey.  She came for material to write articles and now seems to think there is a possible book.  She was anxious to meet the people in the letters, she made friendships with them, but ultimately, she is not an islander, and I can't see her marrying Dawsey, raising Kit, and living happily ever after in Guernsey.  I think Dawsey is a bright enough man to realize this. 

BarbStAubrey,

Elizabeth is about justice not charity –     

Charity responds to an immediate need, is socially acceptable, lauded by politicians and celebrities. Charity can buy you votes, a good feeling. 

Justice promotes change in institutions, policies and systems; is socially, politically, and economically the biggest risk you'll ever take. Social justice can get you shot.

I respectfully must disagree with your definition of Charity.  I see charity as an act of Christianity.  It is a virtue. (a commendable quality or trait .)

I looked up the definition:


Main Entry: char·i·ty 
Pronunciation: \ˈcher-ə-tē, ˈcha-rə-\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural char·i·ties
Etymology: Middle English charite, from Anglo-French charité, from Late Latin caritat-, caritas Christian love, from Latin, dearness, from carus dear; akin to Old Irish carae friend, Sanskrit kāma love
Date: 13th century
1: benevolent goodwill toward or love of humanity
2 a: generosity and helpfulness especially toward the needy or suffering ; also : aid given to those in need b: an institution engaged in relief of the poor c: public provision for the relief of the needy
3 a: a gift for public benevolent purposes b: an institution (as a hospital) founded by such a gift
4: lenient judgment of others
synonyms see mercy

Now this is the definition of justice:


Main Entry: jus·tice  
Pronunciation: \ˈjəs-təs\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French justise, from Latin justitia, from justus
Date: 12th century
1 a: the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments b: judge c: the administration of law ; especially : the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity
2 a: the quality of being just, impartial, or fair b (1): the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action (2): conformity to this principle or ideal : righteousness c: the quality of conforming to law
3: conformity to truth, fact, or reason : correctness

So..while I can agree, Elizabeth acted out against the injustices being done, I feel it was the virtue of charity that caused her to feel the need to react at all. 

In essence, it was charity and justice together, that caused Elizabeth's reactions. 

In saying this.  I must ask if she was reckless and irresponsible, considering she had a small child, who's life would be effected by her actions.  Truth in point, Kit now has to be raised by many, rather than her mother.  Although, I suspect, we possibly, have not seen the last of her father.

[JoanR]

Pedln:  I'm still here!  I have been holding down the other end of the couch which has been thoughtfully supplied for lurkers!  I finished our book some time ago, just couldn't help it!! - but have been faithfully following the discussion and finding that it has been sending me back to re-read portions of the text.

I love it that the book has brought other books to our attention.  I did get "The Book of Ebenezer le Page" and am well into it while my sister has already finished her copy.  The style of writing brings the island speech so much to life - this is such an enjoyable book that I hope some of you folks will manage to get hold of it.

Jude:  By the way," Robinson Crusoe" seems to be Ebenezer"s only book that I've noticed so far!

Our county interloan system has sent me "Elizabeth and Her German Garden" in a very beat-up paperback.  It looks like a keeper though so I'll have to invest in a new paperback from Amazon - it's not expensive.

Barbara - You have given me much to think about as have all of you.  I've been enjoying this discussion so much.

Gum:  I have been reading about the dreadful fires in Australia and my heart goes out to you all.

[bellamarie]

JoanP, At this point in the story, what do you see as the authors' main purpose/focus in writing this book -

In the words of one of the authors herself, Annie Barrows:

"Just like the Guernsey Literary Society itself, part of our purpose was to goad people into reading the books we love.

The wonderful thing about books—and the thing that made them such a refuge for the islanders during the Occupation—is that they take us out of our time and place and understanding and transport us, not just into the world of the story, but into the world of our fellow-readers, who have stories of their own.

Its members are spread all over the world, but they are joined by their love of books, of talking about books, and of their fellow readers. We are transformed—magically—into the literary society each time we pass a book along, each time we ask a question about it, each time we say, “If you liked that, I bet you’d like this.” Whenever we are willing to be delighted and share our delight, as Mary Ann did, we are part of the on-going story of The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society.

In it she offers, for our enjoyment, a catalogue of her delights—the oddities that enchanted her, the expressions that entertained her, and above all, the books that she adored. 

Suddenly, the rest of the world had a seat at the table where I had been feasting my whole life, and, as with any family party, they clustered around Mary Ann, weeping with laughter—or sorrow—as her stories billowed forth.

I feel her focus was to entertain, inform, and enlighten, her readers, to all that she had to offer and cherish about her love of books.  Guernsey is her stage, and all the characters are the actors and actresses.  She of course is the producer and director.  We the readers, her audience applaud her wonderful story, and storytelling.  I am honored to have a seat at her table/theater.  Bravo!!!!!

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh dear Bellamaria - those are famous words about Justice and Charity - there are organizations and web sites about the difference - 
http://www.starthrowerfoundation.org/social-justice.html
http://tiny.cc/SpoWW

The impulse to act based on charity or justice can each bring about a different result - since we are looking for what the characters represent so that we may find the themes within a book - we may all be discovering different themes - Charity may build a theme supported by other metaphors then a theme and metaphor using Justice -

Bellamarie I do not think we need to disagree because we are not building concensus - my life, as your life is different - the reading you have experienced I am sure is different then the reading I have experienced - we come from a differing view of the world - no book is based on one view - if it were it would not become a classic - the well written book allows all of us to open rooms in our hearts and minds - If you notice even the characters in this story disagree with famous author's assessments of life and what is important to include in a book - 

I think what we do here is read someone's assessment that opens us to a deeper look at the issue - for some of us we may have a similar understanding - also some viewpoints are based on accepted myths but some are individually understood and sharing that individual understanding is what has always made discussing books on SeniorNet so rich - I know we are no longer SeniorNet but we are carrying on the traditions that were set back in the 1990s - and so please - we are not acting like a jury where we have to argue till we come up with one agreed upon explanation and result.

For me, I am seeing these characters as portraying the strong indomitable spirit that with grace and belief in themselves while not only coming through these historical times but like barnacles to a rock keep their identity alive. And yes, I agree both Juliet and Elizabeth were from Britain so that they brought an added dimension with different myths governing their instincts. The folks on Guernsey opened their arms and  hearts to both women and to Booker, another Brit - the backgrounds of all the characters add riches to their continuing story just as the Germans added to the story and will continue to affect Guernsey through Kit.

In fact to me that is the hardest thing to learn and be at peace with - Ambiguity - so much more of life is ambiguous where as most of us were taught in childhood to consider life in black and white terms - right versus wrong - I think it intersting that we remark about 'good' Germans where as soldiers from our own armies we isolate as bad apples or we do not acknowledge in literature their cruelties - Next on my pile is to read a few of Schlink's books and I was mesmerized by the PBS special featuring Monika Hertwig, daughter of Nazi Amon Goeth.

Even on Guernsey there were some who betrayed their neighbor and so all was not trust and good will among the oppressed. And so, where I agree the character Elizabeth acted out charitable acts for me I saw her instinct to be more than love but rather from an innate sense of justice - Bellamaria it appears you and others may not see that and that is OK - we are simply seeing different themes in this book.

[BarbStAubrey]

 Owww Judi your post about being a prisoner and Robinson Caruso etc. opened me to another thought - what floated in was the expression "No Man is an Island" - well of course I had to refresh my memory of how Donne used the expression and found it...

"All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated...As therefore the bell that rings to a sermon, calls not upon the preacher only, but upon the congregation to come: so this bell calls us all: but how much more me, who am brought so near the door by this sickness....No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."

And then I had a thought - each individual could be an island unto himself after the Germans disrupted their usual means of communication and pattern of life - like prisoners - but what I am seeing here is that by reading we add to our individual imprisonment another voice and that voice then can be a conduit for community as it was for those who attended the Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society.

But further, it says to me with the voices of authors in our heads regardless the imprisonment of our bodies we are not an Island separated by our prison.

[bellamarie]

BarbStAubrey,   

I know we are no longer SeniorNet but we are carrying on the traditions that were set back in the 1990s - and so please - we are not acting like a jury where we have to argue till we come up with one agreed upon explanation and result.

Bellamaria it appears you and others may not see that and that is OK - we are simply seeing different themes in this book.

Please accept my apology, if in my reply it indicated, I was "arguing my point till we come up with one agreed upon explanation and result."  I with all due respect, did not intend to convince anyone, to see things my way.  I do play the devil's advocate alot, which puts me on the other side of views, which I feel can give us all another perspective.  Yes, I agree, "we come from a differing view of the world", and it truly is okay, that we and others may see different themes in this book.

There is no right or wrong, two people can read the same sentence and see a totally different interpretation and come away with different feelings.  That is the fun of discussing books.  Can you imagine the differences of opinions with the GLAPPPS?  Lo and behold, I can only imagine if Adelaide would have participated.  lolol   

You have my sincere apology, if in any way you or anyone, saw my post argumentative or offensive.


 

[BarbStAubrey]

Not to belay this point further but I must add some of us learned so long ago that it is difficult to write and have others hear what and how we say things because we are all reading with our own voice - I am sure your enthusiasm for the story and how the characters relate to those in your life call you to justify the lives of those you hold dear - great - but please - some of us do not look at characters in a book without understanding they are there to further not only the story but the intent behind the story and so where they remind us of folks in our lives and we feel for them as if they were real we know that their characterizations are for us to examine and find the metaphor or advance a theme.  No disrespect to you, and your loved ones is intended. Whew - OK - lets move on - great -  Bellamarie I wish we were where we could pickup our cup of coffee or tea or glass of wine, nod and go on to the next bit of wonderment that we will be discovering while reading this book.

[straudetwo]

JoanP and Pedln, 
Yesterday the local book group discussed The Elegance of the Hedgehog, and it was  quite a discussion!! 
Since I had suggested the book, I made I sure I was thoroughly prepared. Some members confessed
"they couldn't get into it", and those of us who loved it urged them to continue, and assured them that do so would be well worth the effort. 
Even so, de gustibus non est disputandum ...

Now I need to catch up on the Raj Quartet site but will return to this folder in short order to answer personal questions.

Gumtree,  I have followed the horrible tragedy of the bushfires  in southwest Australia and the national mourning.  Small wonder there was  also impotent rage when it was learned that arson was the cause (and that copycat fires were lit afterwards).  A friend e-mailed me a series of pictures which I found almost impossible to view.

[Steph]

To pick up on the theme.. I really agree that c: the islanders stories is what interests me the most in the book. The story of Elizabeth is one of those over and over stories of the war. There were so many heros and heroines, who died for various reasons. The camp stories alone can rend your heart. I once spent about six months reading a wide variety of stories of the camps and the aftermaths.
Soo. I find the island very interesting indeed. The germans reacted a bit differently than their normal occupation. I think because they were not fighting all the time. A closed society is always interesting.