Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society - by Shaffer & Barrows

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

The year is 1946.  Juliet Aston, a writer looking for her next book subject, finds herself "gloomier than she ever was during the war."  Quite out of the blue she finds her subject, one  that will change her life, with the arrival of a letter from a member of a book club in Guernsey, a British Channel island occupied by the Nazis during the war.

Discussion Schedule: Feb. 1-7   *Letters -- January 8, 1946 - March 1, 1946 Feb. 8-14    *Letters -- March 2, 1946 - May 13, 1946 Feb. 15-21   *Letters -- May 14, 1946 - July 15, 1946 Feb. 22-28     *Letters -- July 17, 1946 - Sept. 17, 1946

Feb. 15-21    Letters -- May 14, 1946 - July 15, 1946

1.  How had the Islanders adapted to the presence of the volatile German soldiers,  sometimes friendly,  sometimes brutal?   Can the Occupation soldiers be trusted?  Ever?
2.  What do you think of the Guernsey girls who took favors from the Germans and turned in John Booker for a new lipstick?  Can you see Elizabeth McKenna falling in love with one of the  them?
3. Is Elizabeth MeKenna a believable character to you?  Do you have a favorite "Elizabeth"  anecdote?
4. What did you think of  Mark's reasons for believing he and Juliet are right for one another?  Is it significant that she tells him not to come to Guernsey, but is delighted that Sidney is coming?
5. Why does Juliet think Dawsey looks like Charles Lamb?  Do you see  him as a possible "swain" for Juliet? 
6.  Can Isola slip an elixir into Sidney's coffee powerful enough to  overcome the obstacle between him and Juliet?  From Bronte to Austen in one cozy weekend with Sidney?
7. Is the name of the  "Dead Bride" game whichJuliet and Kit are playing significant to you?
8. What shocking news does Remy Girard's letter convey to the members of the literary society?   
9. Can you share the episodes that made you smile during this tragic period?

Related Links: Author's Biography; Visit Guernsey ;   A history of Guernsey during the German Occupation 1940 - 1941 ; Charles Lamb - Selected Essays ; the letters of Seneca

Discussion Leaders:  JoanP and Pedln

[JoanP]

Lucky, this is our "lucky" day as you found us and jumped right into the discussion, feet first. Welcome!
  I see that you had participated in the Raj Quartet at one time.  You will be pleased to know that they are carrying on right here on SenorLearn.

Wasn't that  a hilarious scene with the pig swap?   - How meticulous the Germans were with their notekeeping - Death certificates for pigs!  Whose idea it to swap the corpse of the dead pig from farm to farm?  Do you remember?  I'll just bet is was Elizabeth...
It was interesting to learn that the character of Elizabeth was based on the Danish resistance fighter -  a young man named Kim Malthe-Brunn.

[bellamarie]

JoanK, Thank you, I am just thrilled we have her actual thoughts on how she and Mary Ann went about the characters etc.  I do love the quote you used from her.  Yes, we all do feel just like she described her family did sitting and listening to her stories.  Oh and by the way JoanK, I want to congratulate you on a long and happy marriage.  Sounds like you found your, Prince Charming" too.  (although like mine, sometimes they can turn into frogs, when leaving their socks on the floor and the toilet seat up.)  lolol  Just kidding.

JoanP,  Yes, I agree, we don't want to dupicate the questions.  Of course at the time, I first wrote to Annie, I had NO idea you had also.  In my second email I hope you don't mind I copied the questions you and Pedln had posted.  I don't feel she overlooked any of the questions, on the contrary as she stated, "As a sort of consolation prize (maybe), I'm attaching an essay I wrote that will appear as the Afterword in the paperback edition. I think it will answer some questions." 

I am quite pleased with what Annie has shared with us, and I do feel some things are better left to the imagination and curiosity of the mind when reading.  Keep in mind, she has made it very clear, this is a book for enjoyment and to goad readers to read the books they loved.  We all may have over thought, and over analyzed, many parts of the book, that did not have any more intent then to give us whimsical, quirky and interesting characters that made up the story.

Sometimes, too much information, can take away from the enjoyment of the book.  I like the fact we all have been going in so many directions, and questioning and concluding, our own ideas and thoughts.  That's been the pure joy of this, that is exactly what Mary Ann and Annie had hoped would happen.  I just bet all the members at the GLPPPS did the same thing.

[bellamarie]

JoanP, Whose idea it to swap the corpse of the dead pig from farm to farm?  Do you remember?

It was Amelia's idea to use the same dead pig for the AO certify in the book.  And imagine, ole Adelaide said Amelia was one of the only two respectable ones.  lolol

[JudeS]

Bellamarie and JoanP,
Thanks for bringing Annie Barrows on board-even if it is a fleeting visit. I appreciate all the hard work you put into that task.

Now to return to the subject of Adelaide, whom I belittled and belabeled in a former post when first I read her letters to
Juliette.  I have given the issue more thought and here are some surmises I came up with regarding her role in the book.
These surmises may all be true or maybe none of then are true. However it was fun to come up with them.

1. Adelaide appears in the book to show that not EVERYONE in Guernsey is nice or charming.

2.Adelaide is there to remind us that mean , evil thoughts can grow in Guernsey as well as in Germany.

3.Adelaide is secretly jealous that she was not invited to the GLPPPS meetings and finds revenge in badmouthing some of its members.

4.Adelaide has a sad and miserable past that has twisted her into a bitter, mean old woman.More shall be revealed in future chapters.

Any other possibilities out there to add to this list?

To those who mentioned or asked about remembering poems from my childhood and adolescence.  Yes, I happily remember many poems and songs that stick in my head from that period not leaving enough room for new material.

Jude

[bellamarie]

pedln,

Bellamarie, somehow I find it hard to believe Adelaide is a true Christian or a follower of any faith that believes in man’s humanity to man.

pedln, I am not so sure she is myself, that is why I posted,"It appears Adelaide is a Christian person."  Though for me to judge her, would be no different than her, judging the society.

In defense of Adelaide, I do feel in her heart she thinks, she is doing what is Christian, and her moral responsibility. 

I was appalled, and then lauged so much, I thougth I would bust at this:

pg.126 Isola speaking, "She (Adelaide) gathered a circle of children around her and commenced singing "For Those in Peril on the Sea" over their little heads.  "But no, safety from storms" wasn't enough for her.  God had to keep them from being blown up too.  She set about ordering the poor things to pray for their parents every night_who knew what the German soldiers might to to them?  Then she said they had to be especially good little boys and girls so that Mama and Daddy could look down on them from Heaven and BE PROUD OF THEM.  I tell you, Juliet, she had those children crying and sobbing fit to die.  I was too shocked to move, but not Elizabeth.  N0, quick as an adder's tongue, she had ahold of Adelaide's aren and told her to SHUT UP.  Adelaide cried, "Let me go!  I am speaking the Word of God!" Elizabeth, she got a look on her that would turn the devil to stone, and then she slapped Adelaide right across the face_nice and sharp, so her head wobbled on her shoulders_and hauled her over to the door, shoved her out, and locked it."

And we ask why Adelaide has such disdain for Elizabeth?  We should be asking, why not?  lolol  That Elizabeth is a spit fire, bless her soul.  lol

[EvelynMC]

I have just caught up with all the posts. 

Thanks, Bellamarie and Joan P. for emailing Annie Barrows.  I enjoyed her essay.  It is very kind of her to take time from her writing to answer emails.  I have saved her essay to my Word program, so I can read it again at my leisure.  We certainly have been encouraged to read other authors.

Juliet seems so human, so full of our fallacies. --- World War II Guernsey has certainly been brought alive for us, hasn't it.  All the people seem so real.    I absolute love Dawsey, he is so kind.

I agree with ? --- The Guernsey Literary Society would not have come together without the German invasion.  These people probably would have still been in their little niches.  So it is wonderful they were able to rise above all the bad that was happening to them and find solace in one another's company and of course discussing books and the authors. It opened a whole new world to some of them. And a wonderful escape.

I had to laugh at Clara Saussey reading recipes filled with all the goodies they couldn't get.  I think she reads cook books like I do, as a story.

By the way, my books are sorted by genre, I have a book case filled with cook books, approximately five shelves.  I keep thinking I am going to donate them to the library book sale, but I can't part with them.  I do like to cook, not bake.  And I am not a gourmet cook.  Just plain, nutritious cooking.--- My other books are history, biography, fiction, and miscellaneous.  My spices are also sorted by type and then alphabetically. ---

I'm enjoying all your posts. 

Evelyn

[pedln]

JoanP and Bellamarie, it may have been Elizabeth’s idea to swap pigs, but actually it was Will Thisbee’s pig that died.  Then after the “recording officer” had seen it,  he took it over to Amelia who called the officer, and then she passed it on to another friend.  And as you know, they kept this up until the Germans caught on.  It was fun while it lasted.

Evelyn, so glad you caught up with us.  And you are right when you say that World War II Guernsey has been brought alive for us.  I don’t know when I’ve read fiction that has made me want to know more and has sent me looking for more information in so many different places.

Jude, thanks for the summary of Adelaide.  That seems to pretty well cover her, and you’ve pointed out that victims on the same side don’t necessarily like each other.  After my daughter and I saw the Academy Award winning The Counterfeiters, about couterfeiters imprisoned by the Nazis to make pounds and dollars, she said she was surprised by the animosity expressed by the prisoners towards each other.  No doubt part of that could be attributed to the pressures of wartime. However, I don’t think we can offer Adelaide that excuse – peacetime, wartime, she’s not likable no time.

[bellamarie]

pedln, "JoanP and Bellamarie, it may have been Elizabeth’s idea to swap pigs, but actually it was Will Thisbee’s pig that died."

bellamarie,

It was Amelia's idea to use the same dead pig for the AO certify in the book.  And imagine, ole Adelaide said Amelia was one of the only two respectable ones.  lolol

pg. 76..Yes, it was Will Thisbee's dead carcass, and he took it to Amelia.  So which of them came up with this idea first?  Did Will bring it to Amelia, with the intent to pass it off so they could hide her pig, and so on?  Why would Will decide to take it to Amelia?  Seems, everyone trusts Amelia, including dear old Adelaide.  lolol

[Laura]

Yes, Joan, please include the questions and answers from Annie Barrows I post on your page.

Thank you for missing me in this discussion.  I have been lurking, waiting to jump in with Annie’s comments.  Most of them are pertinent to the whole book, so you will have to wait a bit longer on most of them.

I don’t remember all the details of the book, having read it last August, and am not re-reading it now, so I am keeping quiet until a few comments I have at the ending.

[Laura]

A B&N reader wrote:
I am amazed as to how easy it is to read a book of letters.  I've always had trouble with such books in the past.  It is very much to the writer's skill that makes this book so easy to follow, and enjoy.
 
It is very imaginable to figure how lonely these people were, and how much they felt it was them vs. the Germans, and the rest of the world didn't exist or care about them.  Isolation will do this.  That's why any outside communicator was such a miracle to them.
________________________________________
Annie wrote:
I think the problem with most epistolery novels is too few narrators. It's very difficult to believe in a story that's told through forty-page letters by one character (who writes forty-page letters, much less forty-page letters complete with dialogue, descriptions, and background?). I believe the solution is not to bag the epistolery novel, but to have so many characters that no single one is responsible for all the story-telling. I have to say, it was tremendous fun to tell a story through so many voices. Each one gives the story a separate little charge, and each one has his or her own quirks and ideas. I don't know how I'm going to return to regular narrative again.

[Laura]

A B&N reader wrote:
Did you make up the names as you went along or did you have an ongoing list of names to some day include in a book?  I think the names are just darling and found myself looking forward to meeting a new character just to see what the name would be.  I think you should consider another book in letter form for some time in the future.
________________________________________
Annie wrote:
I adore naming characters, and so did Mary Ann. Some of those names come from our family--poor Edwin Mulliss, upon whose tombstone Juliet sits, is a third cousin of mine. And Juliet herself is an homage to a dear friend of Mary Ann's, plus a passing reference to another J. A., Jane Austen. Some of the wackier names are pure invention. I know that Clara Saussey is related to sausage. I don't think that Mary Ann had a list of names to work from, and I know I didn't--when I needed a name, I just stalked around the house until a good one appeared in my brain.
 

[Babi]

JOANP, I wondered if Adelaide's considering Eban and Amelia 'respectable' meant simply they were of the proper social class. Her objections to some of the members had nothing to do with morality, but the fact that they were 'a rag-and-bone man' and 'a swineherd'.
  I don't doubt that Adelaide considered herself a Christian; unfortunately, it became her excuse for venting her spite and jealousy. IMO, the hallmark of true Christianity is compassion.

JOANK, I marked the same lines in Ms. Barrow's essay. I can't help but think they are reflected in Juliet. I see Juliet as delighted in people and their 'fleeting moments of grandeur'.

 The letter Eli wrote to Juliet reminded me what thoughtful gifts people think of in this book.  Sending blocks of different wood to a budding woodcarver.  The postcard picture of Charles Lamb that Juliet sent to Dawsey with his Selected Letters.  I went back looking for other thoughtful gifts, and found Dawsey and the cakes of soap he rendered from pig fat.  That soap may have been the most appreciated gift his friends ever received. 
  On a contrary note, I notice that J. Markham Ramsey’s imagination never soars above flowers, the more showy and expensive the better.

  Dawsey to Juliet: “Some days I wear myself out with wishing for Elizabeth to come home."   I, for one, have come to the greatest admiration for Elizabeth, and want very much to see her come home.  I think, wouldn’t it be wonderful if the publication of Juliet’s book on Guernsey brought Elizabeth to wide attention, and resulted in her being found?  I would very much like to see that happen. Most of us, though, seem to fear that will not happen.

[bellamarie]

Babi,

Dawsey to Juliet: “Some days I wear myself out with wishing for Elizabeth to come home."   I, for one, have come to the greatest admiration for Elizabeth, and want very much to see her come home.  I think, wouldn’t it be wonderful if the publication of Juliet’s book on Guernsey brought Elizabeth to wide attention, and resulted in her being found?  I would very much like to see that happen. Most of us, though, seem to fear that will not happen.

I very much would love to see Elizabeth return, but, I am one of them that fear she won't.  But, then again, as Annie pointed out, she hates for books to end, and the readers are sad to see this book come to an end.  So........who knows, if Elizabeth does not return in this book, there could always be a sequel.  Afterall, we surely can see Annie would be up to the task.  (hint, hint) 

[maryz]

I just finished the book, and will lurk rather than comment.

[pedln]

MaryZ, lurk away, tho you know we’re delighted to hear from you anytime.

Babi, I was impressed by the thoughtfulness of the gifts, too.  Simple, but with a real understanding about what would please the ‘giftee.’  Good point about Mark and his gifts -- 

J. Markham Ramsey’s imagination never soars above flowers, the more showy and expensive the better.

Laura, thank you again for bringing us Annie Barrows comments.  The info you and Bellamarie have supplied gives the rest of us a lot more insight.  Who would have thought Clara Saussey is related to sausage, but now it’s clear.  I can’t get that one comment out of my mind – “butter their little bodies” – no wonder they threw her out. That's almost obscene. Did Barrows by any chance say where Dawsey’s name came from?  It’s unusual. Has anyone heard it before.

I’ve been having fun coming across some names here and then seeing them pop up in other readings.  The alcoholic Booker tells about sipping a glass of Chateau Margaux when the Germans came to call on  him.  Then two days later in P.D. James’ Original Sin, Frances Peverall is drinking the very same.  I’d never heard the name before. Then in latin class I didn’t know how to translate the ablative Phillipo to English, and there it is in Booker’s line in the play – Phillipi.  Then Ginny is telling the latin 101s about the Romans and soap and oil, and here’s Dawsey and Booker making it out of pig carcass.  What a fun read this is turning out to be.

[JoanP]

Good morning, Pedln...I just see you now as I post this.  (I wrote it before I saw yours.)

Laura, thank you much for the added comment from Annie Barrow.  Indeed we will put them on the page of Annie Barrows' comments on this book.  We look forward to hearing more from you - and it is good to know that you are lurking on the sofa in the corner with Maryz, snacking on some of Will Thisbee's pie.
Pedln...old Will Thisbee brought the dead pig carcass to Amelia!  Surely it was his idea to substitute it for her living pig!  Will, all he wanted to do was sit in the corner, eating his pie.  I was rather grossed out to imagine potato peel pie covered in a cocoa topping though.  Maybe he was talking about about another dessert pie.  He, like Clara Saussey, had no interest in reading - just wanted to be part of the group.  Even the minor characters have something to add and are entertaining, I agree with you,  Evelyn.

  I wondered if Adelaide's considering Eban and Amelia 'respectable' meant simply they were of the proper social class.

Babi, I almost was going to add this to Jude's list or reasons why Adelaide has it in for the society, (except for Amelia and Eben)  - but then I went back to check on Eben's background to see if he in fact was from the proper social class.  Read two of his letters to Juliet...rather long ones. 
He was the son of a tombstone-cutter, a long line of them.  Carving was the  family specialty.   
Before Annie Barrows revealed that Eben  was
named after the hero of a wonderful book about Guernsey called The Book of
Ebenezer Le Page, I had thought the connection was to the Hebrew meaning for Eben -

Rock or stone of help. Famous bearer: the Old Testament Samuel gave the name Ebenezer to a stone set up in recognition of God's assistance in defeating the Philistines

But Eben is a fisherman.  He writes that like the others (except for Elizabeth, Mrs. Maugery and perhaps Booker, he had little to do with books since his school years.
There's got to be another reason Eben is on Adelaide's good side.  Do you suppose we will hear more about this woman - and Eben,  before the story ends?  I expect we will!

The war, the occupation, the brutality and the suffering seem to be getting a little too close for comfort, as we read of the increasingly dire situation on Guernsey...after DDay.  Mustn't it have been hard for the Islanders to keep quiet about DDay after learning about it on the few hidden wireless radios?  I'm sure they must have spread the news.

I'm with Steph - 

I suspect she is dead. I would like to know a good deal more about her. But not sure we will.

  The war is over, the Germans are gone - if she's in a hospital, she would have got word out - would have wanted to get in touch with Kit to let her know she's okay. But Elizabeth is a resourceful girl, we've learned that about her.

[mabel1015j]

Since i had to finish the book to returen to the library, i, like MaryZ must be careful of what i say, so i'll stick to the side issues - accept for this comment: At some point while reading "Dawsey" my mind went to "Dorsey." Depending on your accent the two words sound very much alike and the love story between he and Juliet has similarities to Austen's story.

My mother sometimes made soap and OHHHH what a stink.....the lye in it  is what made it smell so badly. She sometimes also made ketchup - another stink! She did both of those chores when i was small, thru the 40's and into the 50's. I always tho't it was to save money, and i'm sure that was part of it, but now i'm thinking it may have also have had something to do w/ the war and the scarcities, especially of fat/lard re: the soap. Of course, there are always more tomatoes than one can use growing in the garden, so i'm sure that making ketchup was both a money saver and a way to use up the tomatoes. I liked the idea of using paprika and cinnamon in the soap and that the men came up w/ the idea. They reminded me of my brother who in his life has liked to cook and has made apple butter and apple cider many, many times, cooking the apples in a big iron kettle in the yard. He also has bee hives and provides us all w/ honey.

Adelaide ? - very often people who live by very rigid rules are very insecure people who feel more comfortable knowing the "right" way to behave and not having to decide - because their decisions might be "wrong" - each time a stiuation presents itself. Elizabeth, on the other hand, being secure in herself, can explore and flit and enjoy the world, feeling confident that she can handle whatever arises. We must also remember that European society - and maybe particularly English society - had very strict rules of behavior for each "class." So Adelaide may be, in large part, presenting us w/ popular thinking about how people of various classes behaved - or were supposed to behave.  Those "rules," of course, got largely smashed during and after the war. I'll bet there were many more Adelaides in that society than we see represented in the book.

Just in case Annie is sneaking in here to have a look at us - - - - - thank you for your comments and your time. I'm sure we'll all be looking forward to any future books you write............................jean

[Laura]

Did Barrows by any chance say where Dawsey’s name came from?  It’s unusual. Has anyone heard it before.

I don't recall her saying.

Lots more comments from Annie to come, but they will have to wait lest they be spoilers.

[bellamarie]

Laura,

Lots more comments from Annie to come, but they will have to wait lest they be spoilers.

Thank you for saving til later.  I already felt a little regret, knowing what I know.  I have not read ahead, and will NOT finish the book early, because I don't want it to end this soon.  I don't feel I have to know all the specifics about who, what, when, where, why, or how the authors came about writing the book.  I want to enjoy this as much as possible, and take it all in, and feel what I feel without too much examination or facts, from the author at this point.  I am very grateful to Annie, for answering my emails and her allowing me to share them with all of you, I hope it in no way spoiled anything for anyone.  My sincere apology if indeed it took the lustre from any of you after posting.  I struggled with whether I should post at this time, but then I left I would be selfish in not sharing my emails with all of you.  I'm not even sure now, if I want more facts even after I have finished reading.  I may be very happy and comfortable with just keeping all these characters and Guernsey in mine own eyes, mind and heart as I feel Mary Ann and Annie intended the readers to do.  So, after saying this, I am ready to read next week's assigned pages. 

[JoanK]

WELCOME, LUCKY!! Yes, I wonder if this theme of pigs will carry through to the end.

[kiwilady]

I apologise for being absent for a week. I have had the most dreadful week. My 14 yr old bichon frise had to be put to sleep last Tuesday and two days later I had to rush my other 14 year old bichon frise to the vet and found she is also terminally ill. Its borrowed time for us. She is not in pain and I will do the right thing when the time comes. My heart is aching. I have meds for her heart and maybe I will be blessed to have her for a little longer. She also has a mass in her body cavity so it definately is a terminal condition. I will try to get back into the book in a couple of days.

Carolyn

[bellamarie]

Oh dear Carolyn, I am so very sorry to hear about your sweet dogs.  I had a miniature Schnauzer, who I had to have put to sleep a few years ago. He was 14 yrs old, and I know the pain you are feeling.  I will keep you in my prayers.  I now have a Shitz Zu and he has brought me such joy, I thought not possible after my precious Bobo.  Good luck.

[EvelynMC]

Carolyn,

I am so sorry about your doggies.  My Maggie became very ill last weekend and we had her into the vet on Monday.  She had/has pancreatitis.  He said she was into some fatty foods or toxic food she ate.  We only give her IAMs dry food, so she must have gotten into a dead animal.  She had to have intravenous fluids, antibiotics and some other medication.  She is just starting to come around today and I am going to watch her like a hawk to make sure she doesn't get into anything again. We came very close to losing her.  She is 12 yrs old.

I am sorry you lost one of your dogs and the other one is so very ill. As a fellow animal lover, my heart goes out to you.  I am sending kind thoughts your way and will be thinking of you.

Evelyn

[straudetwo]

Carolyn,  what sad news! I am so sorry to hear about your two bichons frisés and fully understand your feeling of loss.  You,  like your fellow New Zealander Carole Corner,  have invested years of love, care and grooming in this special, cuddly breed that shows and photographs so well.  How are granddaughters Brooke and Grace taking this?

My last canine companion was a gentle, valiant Greyhound I adopted from a rescue kennel here in Massachusetts (where, by the way, Greyhound racing will at last be banned by 2010 after the referendum question finally passed at the last local election). I renamed her Zola and she let my visiting grands crawl all over her. One day, years later,  she became listless, her eyes lost their sparkle. Surgery would have been possible but the prospects were dim and I did not want her to suffer any more. She was cremated and I brought home her ashes.  I miss her every day.

Sorry for going into such detail.

[straudetwo]

JoanP, pedln,  I'm sorry I haven't been able to articulate some answers to your questions but, as usual, I am working on several projects simultaneously though perhaps not as adroitly and effortlessly as I did in the past.

The WW II era is very much my own; I grew up in Europe and experienced the war there,  bombing and loss of home included.   As one of the characters in our book said (and I paraphrase), "no one who has lived through war will forget it", whether he/she as involved on the home front or on the battle front. 

[kiwilady]

Traude - Brooke and Grace are devestated. This morning they just spent time cuddling Zoe. Zoe was very pleased to see them. This afternoon Ruth came and Zoe was very happy to see her too. Her eyes are bright today and she even chased the cats ( she can't really get to them but she leaps at the screen door and they take off from the doorstep in high dungeon!) She also hung around my feet while I was eating dinner.

Carolyn

[straudetwo]

My apologies.  I just noticed that only part of my long post (just finished) showed. Thankfully I have a copy and will resend the rest tomorrow.

Carolyn, my heart goes out to you and the girls. The only solace at this point is to know Zoe is not in pain.
Take care.

[JoanP]

Good morning,

Oh Carolyn, those of you who have loved and lost a family pet understand just what you are going through right now.  Please accept my sympathy.   Your Zoe is feeling the loss and the love too.
I was struck by the feelings expressed in the letter signed by "an animal lover"  in one of the letters here.  While it was sad to learn what happened to the pets left behind by the families who evacuated the island, it was understandable in a way, wasn't it?  difficult to face up to the reality of war.

Traude knows...

no one who has lived through war will forget it", whether he/she as involved on the home front or on the battle front.

  We are getting a dose of what those on the home front had to endure - even those on the isolated island of Guernsey.

And yet, life went on - Jean, I think it is Adelaide's "insecurity"  that made me sympathize with her.  (Am I the only one?)  She is such a bitter and lonely person, excluded from the literary society which might have given her some  comfort and distraction from the reality of war for at least a little while.

Laura, I seem to remember some reference to Dawsey's name, but can't remember or even find a note about it.  This morning I am amused at Jean's parallel - Dawsey/Dorsey.  What do you think - is Pride and Prejudice one of the greatest love stories ever written?

Looking forward  today to hearing your reaction to the latest batch of letters the busy postman has just delivered...

[bellamarie]

Oh dear, my suspicions have come true....The questions at the top for this week are good questions, but let's not pretend, there is a big elephant in the room.   I am so sad at this point, I don't even know what to post.  The gruesome treatments, the dear friends of Elizabeth in mourning, poor little Kit, no longer having a mother, Rem suffering as she did, etc., etc.  I don't want to get too far ahead of the discussion for this week but I feel I must begin with this question....

Is Elizabeth Mc Kenna a believable character to you?

I have to tell you, all along, I have seen Elizabeth as a guardian angel. 

How is it she came to be in so many places, helping so many people?  Where did she get the stamina, to hold up in the most horrible conditions, and situations?  I suppose there are thousands of people, that have lived through wars, that can vouch for a person like Elizabeth.  Strangely as it seems, I now see Elizabeth more like Mary Ann, and Juliet more like Annie.  Mary Ann began the book and is no longer with us, and now Annie is left to carry on her memory and the legend of this book, and Elizabeth is no longer with Guernsey, and Juliet is living in her cottage, with her little girl and all her friends, carrying on her legend and memory and finish her book. Sidney has the insight to challenge Juliet to get involved on a more personal level in order to write her story, just as Mary Ann's family, challenged Annie to do the same to finish her story. 

Annie, like Juliet, is left to complete the tasks, Mary Ann and Elizabeth began.  They are left to comfort those who mourn their loss, they are left to give hope and love to those who loved these two women so very much, yet they must also deal with this loss on their own personal level.  They are left to live on, in the shadows and shoes of these two wonderful women.  What a compliment and honor to have. Okay, well enough for now, I still have so much more to absorb.

One little tidbit I do want to share, is last night my husband and I sat watching "Somewhere in Time' a 1972 movie with Christopher Reeve, and Jane Seymour.  Interesting enough, I realized Elise's last name was none other than, "McKenna", so what do you make of that? 

Elise McKenna, Elizabeth McKenna, coincidence or not?  It was a movie about traveling through time.  Talk about sitting and getting goose bumps, realizing the similarities was just spooky.  The movie is set in 1912, on an island in Mackinaw, Michigan.  I have visited Mackinaw Island, and seen the Grand Hotel, and its striking the likeness to Guernsey Island's picturesquare, small quaint, beauty.  I remember taking the ferry boat to the island, and seeing the beauty as we approached, and then standing on the island and looking out onto the water, thinking, "Is there a more beautiful sight in all the world?"  I may never travel to Guernsey Island, but I will certainly return to Mackinaw Island.

Sorry, if like I said, I got ahead of the this week's discussion.  I am certain we are all feeling a bit sad, after learning all this week's assignment revealed.

[Babi]

"very often people who live by very rigid rules are very insecure people who feel more comfortable knowing the "right" way to behave and not having to decide - because their decisions might be "wrong" - each time a situation presents itself

.     (Mabel)
   
   MABEL, I feel this is so true.  I have drawn the same conclusion in thinking about some church folk.  Christ did all he could to free people from the hide-bound thinking of the Pharisees, who were all bound up in their 'rules'. But so many people are much more comfortable with rules, that allow them to feel safely righteous without the necessity of too much thought or study.

 Someone was asking if we thought the portrayal of Elizabeth to be realistic. I, for one, definitely do.  There are people like that; I only wish there were more.
Here is another perfect vignette of Elizabeth's character, in a letter from Sally Ann Frobisher to Juliet.
   Sally Ann had developed scabies, much to her embarassment.  She goes to the hospital to be treated. The doctor has assured her it will not hurt.  There she meets ‘my friend, Elizabeth McKenna’.  Have you noticed that everyone refers to Elizabeth as their friend? (Except for the self-righteous Ms. Addison, of course.) 
   Anyway, she tells Elizabeth that the Dr. told her the treatment wouldn’t hurt.  Elizabeth replies, “He lied.  It’s going to hurt like hell.  Don’t tell your mother I said ‘hell’.”   Which of course made Sally giggle.  It was the perfect thing to say.  She tells Sally the truth, while at the same time giving her something to laugh about, and distracting her while the first cut is made.

[straudetwo]

Again my apologies.  While I was typing last night what became a rather longish response - only one paragraph of which ultimately appeared - a sudden outburst of music filled the room. I have no idea how the itune icon my granddaughter Hannah had implanted there on one of her visits had become activated. I managed to lower the sound but the beat could still be faintly heard, which was a bit upsetting, I admit. Then I blithely resumed typing here and, at the end, faced the even bigger shock of seeing only one paragraph of the whole! 

But this is a new week and there are new questions to ponder. So I'll repeat only a few of the answers that got lost last night.

JoanP, some European writers do in fact reflect, refer extensively to and cite/quote their literary heritage. That is true also for Muriel Barbery and The Elegance of the Hedgehog. The local book group will discuss that book on Tuesday, and, because it had been my suggestion,  I'm a little anxious about their reactions.

In our book  here I don't believe the literary references have a deeper meaning that we search for, but rather represent the personal preferences of the authors.

Christian Hellmann  was a field surgeon, an officer, an educated man, fully the equal of Elizabeth. Since I am of the WWII generation I can speak to the German educational system of the time. For one thing, it was very much a matter of class. The high schools were public but tuition had to be paid; there were no scholarships. High schools were also segregated by gender. 
Coeducation began after the war when Germany (like Austria) was separated into four occupied military zones; the American, English, French and Russian zone respectively. 
All courses in the college-preparatory were mandatory in my time  (they still are, I hear), including Latin, French, English; all types of math, geometry, trigometry, calculus (mercy!) and all sciences separately, history and geography (!)  ;electives non-existent. I mention this only to demonstrate that it is perfectly natural that Christian Hellmann was fully conversant in English and had been exposed to Charles Lamb and other literary greats.

What I meant to say in my post last night was that bombs are still falling, shots are still being fired in many parts of the world. Peace in the world remains elusive, perhaps an illusion.  Wars have been a continuum for centuries;
the means used for annihilating the enemy have become ever more sophisticated.  It is impossible to explain to an American what it means to be attacked in one's own country by a foreign power and/or occupied. But we have our book as a clear reference. Countless other examples of the same phenomenon abound.

On Mark, we might remember that the description of him is a reflection of what the authors saw: the spontaneous
warmth, the white teeth, the tanned, open face, the devastating smile.  Britain continued to suffer after the war; rationing continued there (and elsewhere in Europe), and ration cards/coupons, both for groceries and articles of clothing were  often useless because the merchandise just wasn't there.  Even after the war survival was a daily concern in all  the war-torn areas of Europe. Fraternization has always existed in some form, just think of the female camp-followers of the Middle Ages (!)

Much more remains to be said but my just grandson has appeared. He needs to use my computer for making some sophisticated additions to an essay for school, so I will be offline. Thank you for this lively discussion.

In haste, Traude

[JudeS]

I too have an old dog.  He's 16 and a half and has had a number of operations to remove growths .  But the story I want to tell is of our previous dog, Buster, a Rhodesian Ridgeback who lived till fifteen.  He loved and was loved by our cat, Kitty, and they ate together, slept together and except for his walks hung out together most of the day.  When Kitty died (aged 16)  Buster kept looking for her every minute of the day.  After a month he just lay down on their mat and died.

I am telling this story because one of the questions for this week was about Elizabeth's love for a German soldier who was a doctor and seemed a fine person.  He was not the only good German as we now know,and she could see through his uniform to his kind, warm heart. There are exceptions to every rule like my cat and dog and Elizabeth and her love.

If we put all Germans in the same pot we would be simple.  Not all Guernseyans were perfect either.  There was a thriving black market and some of the"silly young things" sold there bodies for lipstick and stockings. 

For those who would like to read about the good Germans may I suggest the book "The Book Thief"  which will put you in the world of good Germans and  how they managed to survive the war.

Jude   

[ANNIE]

Due to a busy week ahead, I may only have time for lurking only.  I also have read and listened to the whole book but won't give anything away when I return to posting.

Jude
Yes, I agree with you about the Germans also having good people.  Heck, there are good people who love the U.S. in Iran.  I might look for the book that your mentioned.  Have you read "The Bookseller of Kabul"??  Another siting of good people stuck in the middle of something completely not their idea.

[bellamarie]

Jude, Thank you for your story, and the book recommendation.  I learn something new, every day I come in here.  What am I going to do when we finish this book?

Not all Guernseyans were perfect either.  There was a thriving black market and some of the"silly young things" sold there bodies for lipstick and stockings.

  Jude 

JoanP,

I think it is Adelaide's "insecurity"  that made me sympathize with her.  (Am I the only one?)  She is such a bitter and lonely person, excluded from the literary society which might have given her some  comfort and distraction from the reality of war for at least a little while.

No, you are not alone JoanP.  Previously, I posted my thoughts on Adelaide, and they fall in line with how you feel.  Like Jude pointed out, "Not all Guernseyans were perfect either."  I always look for the good in every person I meet, regardless of the behavior and appearance they show me.  It is sometimes difficult, but generally, if you look close enough, you will find something, just like Elizabeth was able to look beyond the uniform of the German soldier. 

[pedln]

Thoughts that come in the night --  Kit is named for her father – didn’t we see somewhere that her full name was Christine or Christina.  Amelia is right to have been concerned about divulging her paternity.  No doubt the Germans in authority would have been delighted to return the Aryan child to her father’s homeland, even tho we can surmise that the father, had he survived, would have returned to Guernsey.

Babi, one of the delights of this section are the humorous anecdotes about Elizabeth, and the one described by  Sally Ann was one of my favorites.  Maybe humorous is not the word – feel good, then.

[ivmfox]

Greetings,
I have lived in  the Notting Hill  section of London for the past 16 months. A friend recommended this book to me, she knew the author briefly when they worked together in the  library in a town outside of San Francisco.  I haven't started reading Guernsey Literary yet, I'm at home in Mclean, Va. for the next few weeks, but I enjoy this discussion and will look forward to beginning the novel when I return.
As an aside, there was a great furor in London recently when Carol Thatcher, daughter of Margaret, and  presenter for the BBC made a comment, off the air, to a fellow presenter, that a French tennis player was lie a "golliwog".  The comment was considered by many to be racist and she was to be banned from working on the show.  I don't know the outcome.

[JoanP]

Welcome, welcome, Ivmfox!   (An interesting name! May we call you IV?)  We are neighbors here in VA.  I wish I had know you when I made the potato peel pie several weeks back -would have invited you over for some roast pork and pie!

  As far as I know, BBC has let go of Carol Thatcher for the golliwog comment.  If the story is true, she made it off air to a friend, as you say,  and another BBC staffer overheard it and leaked it to the press.  That staffer is also under investigation and may also be dismissed. 

When do you return to London?Do you have computer access in Notting Hill?  Beginning March 1, we will be discussing Doris Kearns Goodwin's very readable  Team of Rivals and on April 1, Muriel Barbery's The Elegance of the Hedgehog.
You say you have not yet read Guernsey yet?  I really don't want to discourage you from staying with us, BUT we are now over halfway through the book and about to discuss what I am afraid will be a "spoiler"  for you.  Please come back to us after you have read the book.  This entire discussion will be available to you in the Archives if you read the book after February 28.

We all look forward to hearing from you again!

[JoanP]

Let's consider Juliet and Elizabeth together today?  We know Juliet from her letters (all written in the year following the war) ; everything we know about Elizabeth is "heresay - anecdotes that took place during the occupation."
Evelyn writes -

Juliet seems so human, so full of our fallacies

Our weaknesses and frailties.
Is this what makes her "human"?
Bellamarie sees Elizabeth  as a guardian angel. Supernatural?  Superhuman?
Babi - 

I, for one, have come to the greatest admiration for Elizabeth

The  question before us - is Elizabeth a  believable character?

Babi

definitely -  There are people like that; I only wish there were more.

Do any of you know women like Elizabeth?
What are her human frailties?  Are they treated as weaknesses or as  admirable virtues?

Traude, where were you exactly during  the war?  We value your childhood memories - and your input regarding the young German men who joined (were conscripted?) Hitler's army.
Elziabeth was not such an ideologue that she classed all Germans as bad guys, not to be trusted. 
Jude, do you remember the author of The Good Thief?

Pedln -

No doubt the Germans in authority would have been delighted to return the Aryan child to her father’s homeland

  This explains why Elizabeth did not reveal Kit's paternity.  In one of the letters I remember reading that had she made known the fact that the father was a German officer, Elizabeth would have been saved.  What  do you think would have happened to her? You have to wonder, don't you?  If both Kit and Elizabeth would have been saved, why did she choose to remain silent?

Have a great day, everyone.  We are on the way downtown with the grandboys to the newly opened Ford's Theater...not sure if we will take the four and six year old into the house across the street to view the bed in which Lincoln died.  THe six year old is clamoring for it, while the four may be...too young.
Will stop in when we return...

[Babi]

5/14 Isola to Juliet:
  Isola makes clear that there were great differences in the German soldiers occupying Guernsey. Some were as cheerful as tourists, shopping, admiring the scenery, being friendly and buying ‘ice lollies’ for the children.  Then there came the troop of ‘goose-stepping’ soldiers, heavily armed, looking at no one.  Frightening.  I remember seeing them in newsreels. I am glad the book speaks of both 'sides' of German actions/behavior, instead of only the horrors.

5/16  John Booker to Juliet ….Belsen, and the Germans forcing the prisoners’ band to play music as other prisoners dug trenches and burned the bodies of their dead fellow prisoners. What could the Nazis have been thinking?  What is there about this that reminds me of “Brave New World”?  Perhaps, the passing out of candy to children brought in to observe people dying.