Classics Book Club, The

[JudeS]

 
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

Now reading:

March 28---Book VIII:  
At the court of Alcinoös  

Odysseus on the island of the Phaiacians
Peter Paul Rubens (1577 - 1640)

Odysseus and Nausicaa
Salvator Rosa (1615 - 1673)
The Hermitage, St. Petersburg

  

Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny  

Odysseus weeps at the singing of Demodocos
John Flaxman
1805

Useful Links:

1. Critical Analysis: Free SparkNotes background and analysis  on the Odyssey
2. Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:
3. Initial Points to Watch For: submitted by JudeS
4. Maps:
Map of the  Voyages of Odysseus
Map of Voyages in order
Map of Stops Numbered
Our Map Showing Place Names in the Odyssey

Nausicaa
Frederic, Lord Leighton (1830 - 1896)

Ginny
Re Jane Gardams books "Old Filth" and "The Man in the Wooden Hat"- I would say they are an enjoyable and satisfying read. They tell the story of a childless couple in a certain era in English history and keep us interested all the time.Not a Noble Prize winner but certainly the kind of book you would want to read while plunging into the depths of the Odyssey.

Roshanarose
Number seven is indeed fascinating. I may be repeating some info but here are some interesting facts on the number seven.
Pythagoreans saw it as sacred because it is made up of three and four which themselves were considered lucky numbers.
The Hebrew word for seven" Sheva" (soft e) is the same root as to swear which literally means to come under the influence of seven things.
In the Bible there are many mentions and its importance is  immense.Seven days of creation, seven days of the week,seven graces, seven deadly sins etc.

[bookad]

Barb/Ginny/Joan--about laundry being washed in the great outdoors--must tell you a cute, true bit about someone I met and her laundry experience
1976 a friend and I went on a ship cruising from Vancouver, British Columbia to Alaska, thru the inland passages, seeing places like Glacier Bay, Sitka, Juneau, Ketchican --there were a group of ladies from ports in Alaska who would join the boat and join the passengers to relate their Alaskan experiences...we lucked out as the person on our cruise also sat at our table for dinning...her first name was Helen...

she relayed her laundry experience when her children were small, she would wash their items in the river-ocean and one day she was distracted and she saw her diapers floating out to sea....with nowhere to buy diapers she had 2 options, either to let her kids go diaperless, or get in the water and rescue the diapers; which she did...even though it was June we were wearing warm clothing ...and I imagine the water temperature was invigorating to say the least when she had to rescue her diapers

Deb

[JoanK]

That scene, of the women washing clothes in the ocean, is my favoprite scene in the Odyssey. Here's why.

Some years ago, I was teaching English as a second language for the Literacy Councel. my student was a young woman from Salvador. She was homesick, and was telling me about her life in a small jungle village. When she was a teenager, she and all the
young girls in the village would go down to the river to do the laundry. They would laugh and play; it was the fun time in the week. The boys would hide in the bushes and watch them.


I had goosebumps. Here 2000 years later and half-way around the world, was the same scene that Homer depicted so vividly.

[sandyrose]

Ginny, just to let you know I am keeping up with the posts and reading Lombardo and Rieu.     Learning alot from all the posts.

I realize we are moving on to 6 and 7 Wednesday, but want to say I was sort of bothered that Athena intervened.  Odysseus was given a veil and instructions by Ino/Luecothoe the White Goddess so that he would make the swim safely.  Maybe because he doubted her....

I also was taken by O's prayer to the river god.  Beautiful. 

[Mippy]

Ginny ~  did I try to coin a non-word?  By non-proper noun I meant a noun that is not a proper noun, which is traditionally capitalized, such as place names and names of people or books.
So in some uses, has odessey become a lower case word?

Sandyrose ~  Hi, we miss you in Latin class!  I actually like the way Athena keeps showing up.  To me it is a reminder that this was a song-story sung by bards, before it was written down.   A good song-story needs a good helping of fantasy, doesn't it?

[ginny]

Oh these are marvelous memories of washing in the river, and I loved, Joan K, that it was a happy time your student remembered. One sees photos of people washing  clothes in the Ganges and one wonders how on earth they can get clean.

Deb, what a priceless memory and again washing comes up! Oh my word: .her first name was Helen....  I'm not even going to go there, but Homer would have wrought his own tale about your meeting Helen!

Mippy, what do I know? I thought if a noun was not proper (the name or title of persons or books, etc.) it was called common but again, who knows today?

Washing! I am so temped, don't laugh but I am tempted to take something dirty to our creek it's quite a nice flow and there are nice rocks and see what I can do with it. No soap. What were the old wash boards for? Do any of you remember them? Am I a relic from the past? I remember people violently rubbing clothes against washboards, whatever for?

 I have totally messed up and read Book 8, for some reason I got started and ended up with 8 and now I am wondering what sort of people these Phaeacians ARE!  The more you go on the more mysterious they get.

This is like sci fi, these people look normal but these little hints and stuff, as somebody so wisely said earlier and I can't find it, these people are ODD. They stick to themselves, they are odd. I love the little hints Homer gives here and he keeps expanding on it, it's very like the old horror shows where the man and woman's car breaks down in a  storm and they arrive at the spooky old mansion; something is not RIGHT in the mansion, and that's the case here. But wow, the hospitality. But wait, the towns people might turn on a stranger or...what's Nausicaa's reasoning to Odysseus as they go to town? That seemed at variance with the "hospitality" motif we've seen, or did it? And wait, the stranger is sitting in the ashes of the hearth!

What did you like best about Books 6 and 7,  and what did you like least?

SandyRose,  I am so glad to see you here and me too!! but want to say I was sort of bothered that Athena intervened

I found myself in these two (three) books totally irritated at her, she's appearing now as this person and then as that person, and I'm beginning to find her irritating. Why doesn't she let him alone? She is having a good time, anyway. Do you all think he really could not make it without her?

The Greeks seem to accept her now as this or that person, and I have to say there's a strong movement in 2011 to see God in every person, so this is not particularly out of line I guess, but it's so ODD that she keeps this UP. It's as much about HER as it is him. I have a feeling this is not an accident.

The bit about going into the city, I did not understand that at all? What's the deal?  ...Nausicaa tells him to do one thing but what happens? It's strange. These people seem on the outside very solitary and not interested in strangers and then my goodness at the hospitality.

What did you like best about these two chapters and what least?

Here are some questions on it from Temple U:  I think the questions in red here are really good ones, can we answer them?

Book 6

168-72 Note the history of the Phaeacians early on, and consider whether this affects their reception of O. Athena visits Nausicaa, princess of Scheria, in a dream and tells her to go wash clothes at the river. She meets O (naked), who asks for help. What does Athena appeal to in Nausicaa? Try to visualize O's meeting with this young woman. What do we learn about O's character in this encounter? What information does he withhold?

172-8 O addresses Nausicaa; she gives him clothing and food, and instructs him on how best to approach her parents. Why does'nt she take him herself? On reaching the city, O waits outside in Athena's grove. Why do you think Athena fails to reveal herself to O? Describe Skheria.

Book 7

O is hospitably received and promised convoy home. Queen Arete questions him and he describes how he came to Scheria. Who wears the pants in this family? Compare the reception with those we have seen so far. Note exactly what O says about himself. Is he a good guest? Who are the Phaeacians, anyway?

And I have another question. This seems, prima facie, like a simple little adventure tale.  IS there anything here other than these interesting scenes? The new stories our young people read now of super heroes seem very similar: lots of exciting adventures, but the hero, tho bruised and battered, always rises to the top of each new adventure. Is this all it is?

I am wondering what this stop over, this detour, this segue into the land of the Phaeacians is here for? These are strange people. Having read 8 I'm sort of leery of saying too much.

What annoyed me most about this section: Athena. She's all over the place. And then we have a bizarre thing in 8, coming up.

What I liked the most: the washing scene, makes you want to carry some out to the stream yourself, and the description of the palace:

The bronze walls, surmounted
With a blue enamel frieze, stretched from the threshold
To the inner hall. The outer doors were golden,
And silver doorposts were set in the bronze threshold.
The lintel was silver and the door handle gold.
Flanking the door were two gold and silver dogs
Made y Hephaestus with all his art
To guard the palace, and they were immortal
And ageless....

(Lombardo, 94...)

Quite a place, and the description here is just marvelous. Must have glittered in the sun. A magic kingdom a long time before Disney,  in more ways than one, apparently, having read 8. I love the way Homer sucks us into this,  but hist, O is sitting in the ashes.

What did you make of these two chapters? What did you like best and least, what is your opinion on Athena here and what do you think of the questions in red? There are no right or wrong answers (or if there are, I don't know what they are), let's discuss what  YOU think?



This is strange, what did you make of any or all of this or what questions do YOU have here?

[ginny]

Oh Jude, I forgot to say, you had the 1000th post, you win a prize!! More later on that, congrats, all, that's a record for a Book Club Online discussion!

[Babi]

Oh, my!  Lastman's depiction of Nausicaa is hardly the delicate young 16?-year old of my
translation. And there's a crowd there, instead of just her three maids.

  GINNY, the old washboards offered the same dirt-bashing aid that the rocks in the river
did, and the beaters in your washing machine do now. The loosen the ground in dirt so the
water can flush it away.

  Odysseus is a strong character and will do all that it is in his power to do.  But let's face it,..
without Athena he would still be languishing on Calypso's isle.  And having those young women
to help him and take him into the city was...well, literally 'providential'.

   I was startled at the long speech made by the ‘child’ who led Odysseus through the city to the king’s mansion.  It seems so inappropriate for a “small girl child”  to provide so much pertinent information, unasked.  After all,  Odysseus is not supposed to know who this really was.   I finally decided that if the child was a natural chatterbox, delighted to have a grown-up listening to her, she might proudly tell  all the stories she knew about her city and her king.   Putting it mentally into a film setting, I can see where that would work.

[JoanK]

"So in some uses, has odessey become a lower case word?" Yes, and different things are referred to as "odysseys".

" IS there anything here other than these interesting scenes?" There's berilliant literature! The delicacy of this scene with Nausicaa and her maid, following the rough sea adventure and preceeding the Cyclops is just what the book needs. There is no love story in Oddysey to provide a human touch to balance the roughness of the adventures. This takes it's place.

Do you remember in the Iliad, a story of war, we had the scene where Vulcan makes Achilles" sheild with the picture of men and women playing in the woods? The peaceful life that is possible when war is over. That is what Oddyseus is seeing here, hidden, and as an outcast, looking on.

And the delicacy whith which he approaches it, knowing it is something precious that can be broken. His delayed approach to town is part of that delicacy. Remember the restricted role of women in this society. If N were seen going through town with a strange man, her reputation would be ruined forever.

[sandyrose]

Thank you Mippy.  I miss Latin class and all of you--it gives me a nice feeling when I see you post here.  And thank you for the reminder that this is fantasy....and I am enjoying the song-story very much.

What were the old wash boards for? Do any of you remember them? Am I a relic from the past? I remember people violently rubbing clothes against washboards, whatever for?

I am a relic from the past and used a washboard--especially for scrubbing dirty socks.  Then I decided I was probably rubbing holes in them and hung the washboard on the wall for a decoration.  The river washing reminded me of times we went "up north" and I washed diapers in a tub of lake water and rinsed them in the lake.

I was wondering why a princess should have to do her own laundry?? She even drove the cart??

[JudeS]

Washboards were for washing clothes. I remember my Mom using one when I was a tot.
Today they are for sale for 14.95 on the web.
The Columbus Washboard Co. in Logan Ohio is still manufactoring them! You can buy ten differeny types depending wether you want to wash on them or use them as a musical instrument or as a decoration for your wall.
And if you are ever in Logan they offer free tours to their factory.
Washboards were popular in 1941 when this company alone made a million and a quarter washboards.
Other companies sell imported wahboards. So they must still be popular in other places in the world  where the need for them still exists.

[Frybabe]

I vaguely remember a washboard, but it could be my imagination. What we did have, when I was little, was a deep tub basement sink with the wash grooves set right into front side which was slightly angled rather than straight up and down. And then there was the wringer washer. Ouch! That was my arm it tried to wring. Fortunately it didn't break my arm, but it did swell up a bit after being squished.

[Gumtree]

My mother used a washboard, a copper and a wringer - then the magic washing machine came along 

[roshanarose]

Gumtree - my mother had all that washing apparatus.  I remember being fascinated with the copper lining of the copper.  My mother took advantage of this and asked if I would like to clean it every week.  I think I used Ajax or something.  Very corrosive, but we didn't know about things like that then.   There were no liquid cleansers.  Gumtree - did you mother also use those little Reckitts blue thingies?  Now one can use Napi-San to keep clothes white - it costs a bomb.  And Mum used one of those rather strange looking clothes line (before Hills hoists) of a couple of sticks hoilding the "line" up in the middle.  Pre-dryers of course.  I don't have a drier, I choose that option for a number of reasons, including financial and environmental.

I bet Athena never had to do the washing

[kidsal]

O addresses Nausicaa; she gives him clothing and food, and instructs him on how best to approach her parents. Why does'nt she take him herself?

Nausicaa asks Odysseus to go ahead of her as she fears the people will believe she prefers a stranger for a husband which will cause a scandal.  

The story of Athene taking O into the city is a little scrambled.  First she has him hidden in clouds.  Then she speaks to him as a little girl.  Has she taken away the clouds?  Is she speaking to clouds? The she has him in a mist.  Still speaking to him.

Amusing that Athene made him look like a hunk -- taller, broader.  Why?  Were these people more handsome?

Phaeacians had long boats that they took out into the open sea rather than skimming the coast.  Thought of as great sailors.  They were said to be aloof and didn't interact with other peoples yet they sailed out into the open sea.  Wonder where?

[Babi]

 SANDY, I believe the 'kings' of that age, and their families, were not as lofty as they
later became. Their homes would be a bit larger, but very much like everyone elses. They
still managed their flocks/herds/farms...whatever they had. The women had help, but they
still managed the household. Few were as wealthy as Menelaos.
 Feel free to correct me, anyone, if I'm wrong about this.

 I find myself speculating whether the 'Phaecians' could have been ancestors of the
Phoenicians?  They seem to be remarkable seamen, as the Phoenicians certainly were. I
was surprised to read that the Greeks got their alphabet originally from the Phoenicians.
Some disagreement as to the time period on that.

[Gumtree]

Roshanarose: re Wash boards - My mother used all of the things you mention including Reckitts Blue (good for bee stings) and Silver Star Starch  - I used both of those myself. I don't think Ajax was invented when I had to clean the copper. Mother had some preparation we used - don't really know what it was. Old Coppers are just the thing for cooking crabs and prawns... they fetch good prices due to the copper content whenever anyone is pulling one out of an old house. The old clothes lines strung between supports were everywhere as were the 'props' - fashioned by aborigines out of young saplings and straight branches of ... you guessed it ... gumtrees. 

[Gumtree]

It seems to me that the Phaeacians rarely, if ever saw a stranger - they were "the farthermost of men, and none of her mortals are conversant with them" - so the girls doing the washing would naturally be cautious when O appears before them starkers.

Book VI tells us that Phaeacians at one time "dwelt in Hyperia of the broad-dancing place"  close by the Cyclopes who were stronger and used to injure the Phaeacians - and then we're told of the move by the Phaecaians to colonise Scheria.

Then godlike Nausithoos rose up and led them off
And settled them in Scheria, far from bread-earning men.
He set a wall around the city, built houses,
Made temples to the gods, and divided up the fields. (Cook Book VI:7-10)

So it seems that the Phaeacians isolated themselves - a wall around their city - fields divided and obviously they were rich and self sufficient - any strangers would be obvious and rare due to the location ofScheria thought to have been 'far off'.  I have seen somewhere (aeons ago) that Scheria was thought to be Corfu whilst others claim it was Atlantis. In any case they were a fair way from anyone else.

Now as Ginny is wont to say Odyssey is everywhere among us today -
and she's right ... today I took down an Australian classic novel, For Love Alone by Christina Stead and nearly fell off my  chair as I read the preamble in which Stead describes something of Australia

...This island continent lies in the water hemisphere. (thousands of miles from anywhere etc )
- and a page later there's this):
 
It is a fruitful island of the sea-world, a great Ithaca, there parched and stony and here trodden by flocks and curly-headed bulls and heavy with thick-set grain. To this race can be put the famous question "Oh, Australian, have you just come from the harbour? Is your ship in the roadstead? Men of what nation put you down? ..."

How apropos of our reading is that ? The inference is so clear and how reminiscent of 'fruitful' Phaeacia it all is and Stead's copying the Homeric use of the hyphen  - sea-world - curly-headed bulls - thick-set grain -  and then substitute 'stranger' for 'Australian' and you have Odysseus.

I just had to share...

[JoanK]

GUM: that's neat!

I think we've all done too much laundry to appreciate this passage. remember it was written by a man, who probably never knew what a hard job it was. He sees the young women playing ball and laughing while waiting for their clothes to dry.

I used a washboard in Israel in the 60s. I'm sure there are many places where women still use them.

Notice how unique a request is seems when N asks to launder the clothes. If they only did the laundry when Athena reminded them, I'd hate to be around these folks.

[Dana]

Hi everyone, I've been travelling the last couple of weeks and not bothering with email, but did take along the Odyssey and it made great bedtime reading.  In fact I'm into book 10 so will have to slow down.  I've been skimming thru the previous emails and I agree, its a super story and a great adventure.  The descriptions are terrific, how could a blind man be so observant of the way nature behaves, doesn't make sense to me.  I read somewhere that the blind harper Demodocus is the reason that the ancients started thinking Homer was blind, and then everyone else followed along in that assumption....if he was blind, he must have gone blind in later life, maybe cataracts......anyway, I realise I'm quoting ahead of the group--where are we supposed to be reading to now?  I think Arete is definitely the power behind the throne, and one smart lady (her daughter takes after her!).  Alkinoos is a garrulous, sensitive and impulsive man.  Odysseus however is more of a cardboard copy of a hero to me so far, again I think I'm saying the same as some of you already have, have not been particularly impressed by his deviousness yet, either!!

[Babi]

 Thanks, GUM. Now I need to see what I can find out about Hyperia.  I did note during my
'research' that the Phoenicians colonized all around the Mediterranean.

  Okay, it seems that Hyperia may be an older name for the island of Amorgos, the
easternmost island of the Greek Cyclades. The remains of an ancient walled city can still
be seen there, scattered about the island.  All this is speculation, with no mention of
Phoenicians and some possibility of settlement by Cretans.  And to bring all this
speculation full circle, the earliest know literary sources for Greek mythology are....
The Iliad and the Odyssey!   

[Frybabe]

I really love the passage in Book VII (Pope's version) that describes the garden at Alcinous' palace.
Close to the gates a spacious garden lies,
From storms defended and inclement skies.
Four acres was the allotted space of ground,
Fenced with a green enclosure all around.
Tall thriving trees confess'd the fruitful mould:
The reddening apple ripens here to gold.
Here the blue fig with luscious juice o'erflows,
With deeper red the full pomegranate glows;
The branch here bends beneath the weighty pear,
And verdant olives flourish round the year,
The balmy spirit of the western gale
Eternal breathes on fruits, unthought to fail:
Each dropping pear a following pear supplies,
On apples apples, figs on figs arise:
The same mild season gives the blooms to blow,
The buds to harden, and the fruits to grow.

Here order'd vines in equal ranks appear,
With all the united labours of the year;
Some to unload the fertile branches run,
Some dry the blackening clusters in the sun,
Others to tread the liquid harvest join:
The groaning presses foam with floods of wine
Here are the vines in early flower descried,
Here grapes discolour'd on the sunnyside,
And there in autumn's richest purple dyed,

Beds of all various herbs, for ever green,
In beauteous order terminate the scene.

Two plenteous fountains the whole prospect crown'd
This through the gardens leads its streams around
Visits each plant, and waters all the ground;
While that in pipes beneath the palace flows,
And thence its current on the town bestows:
To various use their various streams they bring,
The people one, and one supplies the king.

I got curious as to the origin of pears and apples. I knew that apples are believed to have originated in China (Tien Shan Mountians). Apparently, pears originated in the same area (although I saw claims of European origin). The first mention of pears in literature is none other than The Odyssey. Apple remains have been found as early as 6500bc in the Middle East and may have reached these areas as early as 8000bc.

[JoanK]

"I got curious as to the origin of pears and apples."


I had a translation of "The Song of Songs" with notes. In the passage "comfort me with apples, for I am sick with love.", as I mentioned before the word for "apples" is an orphan only appearing the once, and no one knows what it means. This translator argues that it couldn't be apples, as they were unknown in the Middle East at that time, and argues for apricots. Your source seems to contradict this.

[JoanK]

I love thinking of things like this: had these people ever seen an apple? a pear? Did they have fruits unknown today? If you wanted to be comforted by a fruit, what would it be?

[Frybabe]

This is by no means the end all be all of the debate of when and where apples came from, but it has a nice timeline.
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/maia/history.html

Other tidbits: Our modern name "pear" apparently came from the German or French. The Romans didn't eat pears raw; they liked to stew them in honey.

Actually, if I wanted a comfort fruit in would probably be a strawberry.

[ginny]

I am LOVING the conversation here! So many interesting things brought up!

What kind of fruit is comfort? I love that question. I keep thinking pears tho I can't imagine why. I love apples, Fugi apples. I love cherries. Maybe an apple? Unfortunately I have not moved to the point where "comfort food" means fruit. Tomato soup now and a grilled cheese sandwich? Yes. hahahaa cake? Yes. er...

There are tons of myths about apples, so unless they had a different fruit in mind I guess they had apples.  OK I looked it up,  so far as the Romans went, according to Warsley they had  a "choice of fruits," from "olives (is an olive a fruit?), raisins, apples, apricots, melons, peaches, cherries, grapes, oranges, pineapples, dates, figs, bananas, pears, and plums, though some were imported."

Frybabe, how interesting, the first mention of a pear was in the Odyssey! So many firsts, I did not know that. Loved the Pope, he was quite lyrical. I don't really know anything about him but he sure can write.

Babi, isn't that evocative: The remains of an ancient walled city can still
be seen there, scattered about the island. The Phoenicians fascinate me. We know they founded Carthage but that's another hero who left behind another woman who loved him, trying to get home, Aeneas.

Seems to be a common thread if I'm reading Naucisaa right, what's this from her father at the end of 7? He's just MET Odysseus, and he's already:

"My kind of man--would marry my daughter
And stay here and be called my son."

Dang, that's fast.

Even tho he's just said he lost all his crew crashing on Ogygia with Calypso. And they are seafarers. They are really strange.

Now when they talk of the "Spinners" in line 210 Lombardo (whose lines are off, this is between 198-231) are they referring to the Three Fates? I always thought they were eerie and wondered which one was the most important: Clotho, Lachesis or Atropos and I hope they are right as I memorized them a long time ago.

But which is more important, the one who spun the thread of life, the one who measured it out or the one who cut it?
Anyway, love those three.

 Dana, welcome back!  I agree he's not shown us a lot of deviousness yet or particularly much thinking except for arguing with the goddesses.
 
In the interest of not writing 800 mile long posts, I'll try a new one.

[ginny]

Frybabe, what an interesting time line! Strawberries, now, yummmm,   I may change my comfort food to strawberries and cream or ice cream, or maybe even shortcake, yum! I made a raspberry fool last Sunday and it really was good and I actually don't care for raspberries having had to eat so many as a child.

Babi I was kind of taken with the "little girl" guise of Athena, too. She said they were not particularly welcoming and were intolerant of strangers, isn't that odd?

I did like the mist she put around him so nobody could see him. I bet you a dollar that's where Rowling got her Harry Potter stuff, she has a classics background which shows.

hahaha SandyRose, you put your finger right on it!
I was wondering why a princess should have to do her own laundry?? She even drove the cart??

OH good point, with all those servants, or is this some kind of ritual wedding thing or something?

Gumtree, how fabulously interesting, it's getting spooky how it's all around us!!!  I love that aspect of reading, thank you for that!

The thing IS,  if we were not reading this, that might have slipped by, unnoticed. Makes you wonder how many other allusions slip by.

People used to read the Classics in translation just TO understand the references. Looks like that benefit is not gone!

That's a good point, too, they may have just been so isolated they were suspicious.

Sally,
The story of Athene taking O into the city is a little scrambled.  First she has him hidden in clouds.  Then she speaks to him as a little girl.  Has she taken away the clouds?  Is she speaking to clouds? The she has him in a mist.  Still speaking to him.

This makes  me laugh. Lombardo has a mist instead of a cloud. haahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa It must be late, I find him traveling in a cloud impossibly funny. hahaa Shades of Monty Python.

Amusing that Athene made him look like a hunk -- taller, broader.  Why?  Were these people more handsome?

Now that's a good point.  Well Nausciaa is, she has "white arms." What does that mean?

I've been noticing how many times she makes him look godlike or fabulous. Maybe appearances do matter? The thing is we've all had moments when somebody has looked really fabulous and never again or one looks especially great. I love the idea that they did,  then, too, and attributed it to the gods.

This IS  sort of an amusing chapter in some ways. Apparently that ceases in 9-12.

Everywhere he goes the ladies fall for him,  hard. I am trying to figure out why? He's a regular Adonis apparently. Maybe a Clark Gable, then I could understand it. Ok Clark as O.

So he's safe when he meets the little girl, as he's in a mist, but I agree this is kind of scattered and magical. He speaks to the "little girl" first. One assumes he's now visible, just like Harry Potter.

 But why a little girl? Why not look like a  man or a cobbler or somebody they all know like Mentor was in Ithaca?

Why all these disguises?  Why not keep him in a cloud the whole time? hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Monty Python, I can't stand it. hahahaa

And then Athena told O in the guise of the little girl they are allowed to sail by Poseidon. I am not sure if she means like everybody else on the sea or if they have a special friendship. Or relationship? Or kinship? Does the king say somewhere they have a special kinship with somebody?  If they have any kind of relationship with Poseidon,  it's going to get very sticky here.

SHRIEK! hahahaa Joan K, you are so funny: If they only did the laundry when Athena reminded them, I'd hate to be around these folks.  hahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

One thing that the Romans thought really set themselves off from the other peoples of the ancient day was  the Baths: they bathed. Daily. Imagine. hahahaa

You all are a hoot on these washboards, from Sandy not wanting to rub holes in the socks, to Gum and another Greek mythology reference: Ajax!

This just blew my mind, Jude: The Columbus Washboard Co. in Logan Ohio is still manufacturing them! You can buy ten different types depending whether you want to wash on them or use them as a musical instrument or as a decoration for your wall.

You're KIDDING! I want one. I told my husband this and he said well there's the creek and the rocks. Droll droll man.  ho ho ho  Don't you wonder where those Cracker Barrel Restaurants get those old timey things? I guess we know now  where they get the washboards!

Margie those ringers have really messed people up. I used to be in total fear of them, you were lucky: I've seen people's fingers lost. Why wringers, they would wring things before hanging them on the line? Golly moses it's a wonder the women of yesteryear weighed 50 pounds. I wonder what percentage of time daily was taken with this kind of hard physical labor.  And it seems as if I recall more than one stage in the wringer? There was a high wringer but did it go thru another one? Man one feels old here. hahahaa

OK here are two as yet unaddressed questions to go with our great reader questions as we're contemplating our comfort fruit:

On reaching the city, O waits outside in Athena's grove. Why do you think Athena fails to reveal herself to O?

That's a good question, she sure puts on enough other costumes, you'd think it was Halloween. Did he know who she was as the "little girl?"

No wonder the man's depressed, nothing is who or what he thinks it is.

How about this one?:

What do we learn about O's character in his first encounter with Nausicaa?  What information does he withhold?

Let's go on to 8? Itr is so EASY to read these little snippets at a time and they do seem to be contained in themselves.

Does anybody know why the books are organized as they are?

Why the breaks? 7 and 8 are about the same thing, why are there breaks? Does any source tell about how these came to be arranged in books?

 I want to discuss these odd people, this is very like Harry Potter, isn't it?

OK here a couple of chapters from the end of 7, Alcinous, the king, tells O ( about 4 paragraphs from the end of 7)


You will lie down and sleep
While they row you over the calm water
Until you come to your home....

But you will see for yourself
How good our ships and rowers are."

Ok mark that, the rowers thing. He's said twice they "row."  

 Let's read 8 for Monday and see if they actually DO row?

He sure has taken a fancy to O, hasn't he?

Could we do 8 for Monday? It's kind of hard to stop reading in places, this gets very interesting.

 OH peaches and ice cream, now there's something that's hard to beat?

[JoanK]

DANA: glad you're with us! Fun, isn't it.

FRY: great history of apples.I never thought of this before: apples do have a connection wwith sin, don't they. First:

"The sexual and romantic connotations of the apple were powerful reasons why apples came as dessert at the end of the meal. They not only tasted heavenly and were good for digestion but were regarded as a cunning transitional aphrodisiac for the pleasures that followed. "

(I must be eating the wrong sort of apples).

And then, an artist depicts the forbidden fruit in Eden as an apple, and so it's assumed that it was (does this mean we don't know what it was?).

Once it's identified as the forbidden fruit, it's shunned by the illiterate but popular with the literate. What does THAT mean?

[Dana]

isn't there a Latin saying
ab ovo usque ad malam   from the egg to the apple
from soup to nuts
I guess they had apples then

I was thinking about what I said about Odysseus--that he didn't really make an impact on me "personalitywise"  and I realise that's not true, he actually rather irritates me--all that endless debating with himself (eg
when clinging to the tiller, later deciding how to approach Nausicaa) and weeping  (well that annoys me with Penelope too) and then later on he turns out to be his own worst enemy....but mustn't jump the gun, I think I'll not say any more till I'm back in line with everyone again because its too hard not to be influenced by the progression of the story

By the way, was just reading in Newsweek that Atlantis may have been found (again!) situated near Gibraltar round about Cadiz--apparently they found some concentric circles there as mentioned by Plato. Also artefacts. Thought to have been destroyed by a tsunami about 4000 years ago.  Not mentioned in the Odyssey tho!

[roshanarose]

For comfort and sensuality all rolled into one delicious pagkage, it is mangoes every time....  They say the best place to eat them is in the bath

[Gumtree]

roshanarose - you ccan have all the mangoes - I'm so allergic to them that if I even touch one I have severe reactions.

As for my comfort fruit - I like them all it's hard to choose but one thing I really do like is the tomato. A well grown and vine-ripened tomato has everything - it is succulent, rich and tasty,  and with just an added touch of sharpness - for me, the king of all fruits. 

[BarbStAubrey]

A fresh picked tomato warm from the sun - I can see my grandmother now in her Hoover standing in the garden eating a red tomato trying to keep the juice from dripping down her chin. The tomato is an Aztec fruit traced back 700 AD

Gumtree - I only read the reason the tomato was considered poisonous in Europe was because the acid leached out the lead in the pewter - since poor folks used wooden spoons and plates they were not made sick and so the recipes using tomatoes came from the peasants.

Roshanarose - I did not know the history of the Mango - wow - we are talking ancient
http://www.plantcultures.org/plants/mango_history.html
I had no idea it was related to cashews and pistachios. All of sudden the color of the mango and now that I know more of its history is bringing up scenes of an arched gazebos with sheer silken sari cloth floating in a breeze on a dark blue sky summer night - ahhhh.

Frybabe I am trying to remember who it was but only last week or maybe the week before - I think on the Charlie Rose show of all places there was someone on who was singing the glories of Kazakstan and among the tidbits he was saying, they take credit for the first domesticated apple and evidently the countryside is covered in apple orchards - it is mountainous and apple trees are in bloom covering the landscape in white. This site has the history pretty much as you shared it...http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/maia/history.html

Are the Scuppernong's your comfort fruit Ginny? http://www.scuppernongs.com/id2.html

For me a comfort fruit - I flirted with the idea of a peach drooling down my chin but had to settle on the apricot with its warm soft and fuzzy skin - sweet without being cloying sweet - no sugar or cream needed to heighten the flavor - just like kissing a child's cheek rosy from the sun and best of all the dried apricot in winter is a delicious treat along with apricot jam between layers of yellow cake and slathering a pork roast - yes, an Apricot it is. http://www.apricot-oil.com/en/apricots/apricot_history.html Evidently in China a branch of apricot is used as a bridal decoration much as we think of a branch of orange blossoms.  

[BarbStAubrey]

I read more symbolism in King Alcinous' palace. The dog is symbolic of Fidelity, watchfulness, nobility philosophical principle of life. A keeper of boundaries between this world and the next; guardian of the passage, associated with all messenger gods and gods of destruction - an  attribute of Hermes - Homer suggests the dog is shameless and also accompanies the hunter Orion. The monster dog Cerberuis guards the entrance to the underworld - there are many more meaning on a full page devoted to the Dog -

A Symbol is considered the instrument of knowledge and is the most ancient and fundamental method of expression which reveals aspects of reality that escape other modes of expression. Symbolism urges meditation, is international and stretches over the ages, is fundamentally basic to the human mind.

A door symbolizes Hope; opportunity; opening; passages  from one state or world to another; entrance to a new life; initiation; the sheltering aspect of the Great Mother. The open door is both opportunity and liberation.

hmmm I wonder if this door symbolism is strengthened as an aspect of the Great Mother by Odysseus being instructed to seek out the queen.

Silver is symbolic of the moon, virginity, the feminine aspect with gold as the masculine - the queen with the King as gold. Gold the sun, illumination, self-luminous, the quality of sacredness, incorruptibility, wisdom, durability, nobility, the equilibrium of all metallic properties, superiority, wealth.

All the fruits mentioned have a symbolic meaning - i am just going to include the oldest symbolic meaning since later in history and in other cultures there are additional meanings. Grapes wisdom, Figs peace and prosperity, Pear hope and good health, Pomegranate immortality, unity, plenty, rejuvenation, emblem of Hera, Ceres, Persephone the return of Spring, fertility to the earth, grew from the blood of Dionysos. Apple fertility, joyousness, knowledge, wisdom, luxury, love, sacred to Venus, as love and desire, a bridal symbol and offering,. Apple branches are an attribute of Nemesis and Artemis and in the rites of Diana. the Apple of Dionysos was the quince. The Apple tree was associated with health and immortality, sacred to Apollo. Olive Immortality, fruitfulness, fertility, peace, plenty, achievement. Grass usefulness, submission, conquest of a land, surrender.

[Babi]

 FRYBABE, it's lovely poetry, but again I feel as though I'm reading Pope, not Homer. The
sense of a saga told by a minstrel is just not there.

 I agree, GINNY. Daddy's assessment of Odysseus for a future son-in-law was awfully quick.
I'm more inclined to think that Homer is just gilding his hero a bit more, showing everyone
esteeming him highly.  Nausicaa's 'white arms', now, I think is an indication that this is
a lady, not some sun-tanned farm wench.

 Grown-up men crying is not widely acceptable today, is it, DANA? And even women we now
prefer to think of as strong, and not weepy. (They are excused, of course, for weeping over
the loss of a loved one.)  From all the weeping going on in Homer, tho', I would say that
emotional displays were quite acceptable in ancient Greece.

[JoanK]

Yum, yum. I think I would go with that peach.

[PatH]

Well, I was going to say my favorite fruits are raspberries and apricots, but then roshanarose mentioned mangoes, and that reminded me of something.  Forty years ago, an Indian friend, returning from a visit home, brought us some mangoes he had brought back on the plane.  I think maybe a different variety of mango thrives in India, and these were absolutely dead ripe.  They tasted like a super-idealized perfect idea of what a mango could only dream of becoming.  If I could get mangoes like those, they would definitely be my favorite fruit.

[Frybabe]

You may be right Babi, but then he may be closer to the way it was written. The references I looked at say that the Odyssey was written in dactylic hexameter and more than likely accompanied by music. I am not sure whether that means that the poems were simply related with a background of music or whether they were actually sung. Who knows, it could have been an ancient form of Rap  I am not much of a poetry person, so I can't tell if Pope tried to stay close to the dactylic hexameter form or if he used his own poetic style to tell the tale. I think very early on in the discussion there was mention of poetic forms at which my eyes glazed and skimmed over.

[PatH]

I'm back in town, and finally gotten my wind after the worst plant trip I've had in decades.  Now to play catch-up and say the things I've thought of while away.

Constellations:  some of them are quite ancient.  Here's some info from my star maps (old, but with a text by astronomer Donald Menzel).  Stone age carvings in caves in Sweden unmistakably show the Great Bear (big dipper).  Astrology developed about 1200 BC, and the Assyrians and Babylonians had already divided the zodiac, mostly into the same constellations we now use.

The "Bear (also known as the Wagon)" is probably the Big Dipper, not the Little Dipper, since that's the one that is also the wagon.  But either would be in the north, so by sailing with the Bear on his left, Odysseus is going east.  It is "aloof from the wash of Ocean" because it never sets.

[bookad]

my thoughts about 'the Odyssey' are all over the place so here goes.....

when I read of Odysseus crying  and carrying on because being marooned on the island with Calypso...why doesn't he do something beside feel sorry for himself.,.. begin creating a raft, start storing up provisions so when the opportunity arises he is ready to leave/escape...why is he sleeping with calypso when he has Penelope back home pining for him

so many discrepancies...are they due to the translations...the time period and not understanding how people of that era thought...is Homer a poor writer of the era, but the one that came thru the ages for us to read (will I get chastised for that last thought!!!!)

one more point though having trouble with the princess telling Odysseus to travel alone for the sake how her friends would view her   instead it was easily found out that she had already met him and then allowed him to continue alone ...so she gets chastised by her parents for doing so

 I am not very empathetic for Odysseus as a character
what happened ...of course 20 years more or less and he could have shifted in his character, loss of confidence...he may be the hero of our story but my empathies don't really lie with him...and then a part of me says well he is genuinely expressing his feelings something we feel men have shut out of their lives in our society quite often, so why do I condemn him for this  


as far as Athena...would Athena not be letting Odysseus realize her identity so not to let him get dependent on her super powers as a Goddess!!!......he seems to be an 'oh woe is me' type person, yet in his battle actions was a man of action with confidence and daring and 'go get them' attitude while in Troy...maybe Homer did another first writing of a character 'depressed' and not able to manage his life while in this mind set


if my thoughts are totally out in left field tell me and I'll back off

Deb

[roshanarose]

Au contraire Deb - I think you make excellent points about Odysseus.  A psychologist of today would probably describe him as suffering from clinical depression and post-traumatic stress.  At least that is how he appears.  (Psychologists most welcome to argue this point) It is so tempting to put people in pyschological boxes, and I hope that I am not doing O a disservice.  Maybe he got sick of being the tough guy with the troops for so long in the Iliad.  A man, a King is not meant to show emotion during war.  He is, after all, a "creation" of Homer's.  But Homer is writing about him a couple of hundred years after the "fact". We, necessarily, look at him with modern eyes. People's emotions haven't changed, but so many other things have.  btw psycho in Greek is pronounced Pseehee, p and s are pronounced together, i.e. the p is not silent (Ancient Greek)- ψυχή = breath (Latin) anima. In Modern Greek the word has taken on a slightly diferent meaning - soul, spirit, energy and butterfly.