Classics Book Club, The

[BarbStAubrey]

 
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

Now reading:

March 14---Book V:  Odysseus, Calypso, and Hermes  

A Fantastic Cave Landscape with Odysseus & Calypso
Jan Breughel the Elder (painted with Hendrick de Clerck)
c. 1612

Calypso offers Odysseus a chest
Lucanian red figure hydria
c. 450 BC
Museo Nazionale, Naples

  

Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny  

Hermes' message to Calypso
Engraving and etching on paper
John Flaxman
1805
Tate Gallery

Useful Links:

1. Critical Analysis: Free SparkNotes background and analysis  on the Odyssey
2. Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:
3. Initial Points to Watch For: submitted by JudeS
4. Maps:
Map of the  Voyages of Odysseus
Map of Voyages in order
Map of Stops Numbered
Our Map Showing Place Names in the Odyssey

Hermes visits Calypso and Odysseus
Etching
Hubert Maurer (1738-1818)

and who among us was it that suggested we find all the goddesses and see if they had half human children - well here is the list of gods and goddesses - hmmm and how many weeks is this discussion   Alphabetic list of Gods and Goddesses and from the same site, probably easier to take it in by going to this page first -  Family trees - Genealogy of the gods

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh my we have to know this poem about Ithica the home of Odysseus now in the twentieth century -

Ithaka - The Canon
            ~ By C.P. Cavafy, Translated from the Greek by Edmund Keeley/Philip Sherrard

As you set out for Ithaka
hope the voyage is a long one,
full of adventure, full of discovery.
Laistrygonians and Cyclops,
angry Poseidon—don’t be afraid of them:
you’ll never find things like that on your way
as long as you keep your thoughts raised high,
as long as a rare excitement
stirs your spirit and your body.
Laistrygonians and Cyclops,
wild Poseidon—you won’t encounter them
unless you bring them along inside your soul,
unless your soul sets them up in front of you.
 
Hope the voyage is a long one.
May there be many a summer morning when,
with what pleasure, what joy,
you come into harbors seen for the first time;
may you stop at Phoenician trading stations
to buy fine things,
mother of pearl and coral, amber and ebony,
sensual perfume of every kind—
as many sensual perfumes as you can;
and may you visit many Egyptian cities
to gather stores of knowledge from their scholars.
 
Keep Ithaka always in your mind.
Arriving there is what you are destined for.
But do not hurry the journey at all.
Better if it lasts for years,
so you are old by the time you reach the island,
wealthy with all you have gained on the way,
not expecting Ithaka to make you rich.
 
Ithaka gave you the marvelous journey.
Without her you would not have set out.
She has nothing left to give you now.
 
And if you find her poor, Ithaka won’t have fooled you.
Wise as you will have become, so full of experience,
you will have understood by then what these Ithakas mean.

[roshanarose]

Barb - It was I who was curious about goddesses having children with mortals.  That is a fabulous link, thank you.  Who would have known there was such a comprehensive family tree?

Great to see my favourite Modern Greek poet up.  Cavafy got it right.

[roshanarose]

Barb - Yes.  When you measure the height of a horse you say "15 hands high".  And of course there is the word digital (from Latin)which makes it even clearer in our digital world.

We use the metric system here, but I have never got used to saying 135 centimetres.  I am much better with weights (kilos) and distance (kilometres). 

[ginny]

Great links and information, such a rich discussion! Thank you all!

Babi:

GINNY, so far in our reading the only lines cut as being "thought spurious or out of
place in antiquity" are from Book I. These are lines 275-278 and 356-359.  Naturally, I
don't know what those lines said, as they are not in my translation. I'd be curious to
know what they are.

OK on these lines in English (and I can put in the Greek if needed)

275-278:

Let her go back to the hall of her powerful father, and there they will prepare a wedding feast, and make ready the gifts in their abundance, all that should go with a well loved daughter. And to yourself I will give wise counsel, if you will listen.  Man with 20 rowers the best ship you have and.....

Lines 356-359:

..the loom and the distaff and bid your handmaids be about their tasks; but speech shall be men's care, for all, but most of all for me, since mine is the authority in this house.

She then, seized with wonder, went back to her chamber, for she laid to her heart the wise saying of her son.  Up to her upper chamber she went with her handmaids...

So here the very things we commented on, and found meaningful:  T telling her it was HIS control now and the possibility of her returning to her father, the suggestion and re marrying seem to be thought additions or not correct?

Do your books say anything about this?

Thank you  Babi!

[ginny]

I keep thinking back to the main plot, the man traveling trying to get home. I keep thinking about this theme, hasn't it been repeated in countless movies? I'm thinking of the George Clooney movie where he went about firing people, it was just on TV last night. A traveling man with his own demons and obstructions. Bill Murray in that one a couple of years ago, about a traveling man on the road constantly (we can tell who goes to movies, I can never remember the names of them) but each one about a man alone, despite whatever affairs, longing for something else, always something ELSE to complete him, and having to struggle against modern odds.

It's true they don't have Poseidon coming out of the sea, but those who stood on the wing of that airplane in the Hudson might have a feeling of intervention,  too. So I'm trying to think how these characters relate to us in 2011, what character traits they have that we CAN relate to.

Odysseus, for instance, I can see in NYC in a skinny minute, arguing with everybody he meets. Thinking always thinking. I am well familiar with this type of man, from my own childhood in Philadelphia, he  was quite common.   As Sally says, the way his life has gone, he's not trusting anybody, can we understand that? Do you know of have you ever met anybody like this?

He's a slick talker, too, he tells Calypso with whom he's sleeping that his own wife at home couldn't compare to her in beauty,  but he remains true to his wife, that's novel, and hard to pull off: a man up front about his wife. No "she doesn't understand me," no "I'm really separated" (and O really is) just, I want to get home,  take me as I am,  or not. Both the Murray character and the Clooney character were up front about their aloofness but I think both weakened, in the end. Did they?  So far Odysseus has not.

Would you call him a strong man? Despite all these tears and moaning?

Is his a case of the green green grass of home in memory overpowering the real thing? Haven't you ever gone "back home" to find everything so much different than it was when you were a child? O did not leave home as a child but perhaps his longing has gilded the lily. I know a LOT of people like this.  Again in my own childhood I heard tales of the "old country," from adults,  those who came to America to escape WWII's horrors, and Poland particularly (in my part of the country) was really portrayed as a wonderful place. Before.

Then he encounters Ino and says, "Not this. Not another treacherous god...I will not obey....I'll play it the way that seems best to me."

His experiences have produced this reaction, do we know anybody like this?

Calypso has offered him the moon to stay with him: Immortality!

He's apparently turned it down. How many times we've seen this theme in literature. Dr. Faustus. Dorian Grey. How many modern celebrities have given practically their souls in exchange for some fleeting fame? How many authors write TO ensure their own immortality?

What is Modern Immortality anyway?

Do you know anybody like Odysseus? If you remove the pesky gods (and I'm not sure you should because there are enough Angels in America television productions and movies to counter this issue for the positive) do you know anybody like Odysseus? James Joyce did, do we?

[Babi]

 Thank you for those lines, GINNY. That explains why I did not find the line quoting
Telemachos as saying "mine is the authority in this house", when all that discussion was
going on.

"Would you call him a strong man? Despite all these tears and moaning?"

I don't think these ancient Greeks thought tears a sign of weakness. So far in our 
reading there have been several instances of emotional Greeks shedding tears freely. It
seems to be perfectly permissible.

  I notice “Homer” does express some social views.   He points out the discrepancy in the gods reaction to  immortal/ mortal relationships.  He also makes a statement, “..the best thing in the world being a strong house held in serenity where man and wife agree.’  He shows us
again and again the importance of hospitality to the traveler and lordly treatment of the guest.
Not to mention the importance of a bath, before anything else! 

[JudeS]

The Odyssey is the first great novel..Its an adventure story that is hard to beat.
Odysseus is an optimistic , resourceful person who is physically handsome, strong and charismatic.He is also clever and can be devious if necessesary.According to Calypso he is also a great lover yet loyal to his wife.
Can you believe all this?
Even if you can't you want to.
Authors from Swift (Gulliver) to Burroughs(Tarzan) to Fleming (Bond,James Bond) have fashioned heroes who we would like to meet but never will. They are too good to be true.
I think Shakespeare said "Oh, this too, too mortal flesh".

[Gumtree]

Babi Re the lines omitted from your copy - my Cook translation has much the same as Ginny's one by Murray:

line 274...
And your motherm if her spirit urges her to marry
Let her go back to the hall of her father who is great in power.
They will prepare a wedding and set in array
The many gifts that ought to go with a dear daughter.
For yourself, I strongly advise you, if you will listen,
To fit out the ship that is best with twenty oarsmen

line 356...

Well come into the house and apply yourself to work,
To the loom and the distaff, and give orders to your servants
To set at the work. This talk will concern all of the men,
But me especially. For the power in the house is mine.

She was amazed at him, and back into the house she went.
The sound-minded speech of her son she took to heart.
She entered the upper chamber with her serving women,...

Cook makes no mention of these lines being thought to be spurious. Babi, Does your author give any more background for omitting them?

[Frybabe]

Just a note to let Ginny know that I am still lurking. I have been reading and actually am actually keeping up with the chapters and posts. Amazing!

[JoanK]

BARB: what a wonderful poem. Thank you. I think that poem tells us the timelessness of this story: why it has been and will be repeated over and over again in literature.

" I think we readers often do this, BARB; attach hidden or symbolic meanings that the author never intended." I had an instance of this when we read "The Jane Austen Club" with the author. I asked her if ----- was a symbol for -----. She politely answered. "Oh, I never thought of that. What a good idea." Since then, I've been slower to attach symbolic meaning to things.

FRY: isn't it!

JUDE: "heroes who we would like to meet but never will. They are too good to be true." yes, they are. But at the same time, Odysseus is us, don't you feel?

[BarbStAubrey]

I know - what to do -  I had a couple of English Lit classes that were all about knowing and reading from the symbolic message - and then you hear from authors who tell you - oh  ya - interesting - that fits but not what I was thinking when I was writing it - I am with Babi on this - I think there is an inner knowledge which still comes out in our dreams that I think when it is put in our face we can see more clearly what is going on .

I love it Jude - "Can you believe all this?" - Because I too hit the roof with Odysseus suggesting before his night, or if we read other accounts his many nights, of love with Calypso that she, Calypso had it all over Penelope - Ya, we've all heard that before... - I was up in arms pacing the living room - why should I read this claptrap - just because "MEN" in places of literary importance think it is good for our souls - oh I was on a tear along with Margaret George, who has Helen of Troy having no truck for Odysseus - he is on the bottom of Helen's list as far as men go and looking at it from her point of view it is easy to see why. But then I reviewed the symbolisms - breathed - and I have a different take...

I see this chapter as a resurrection - in fact it was just those words used in the bit explaining the Alder tree - it is as if  Odysseus is reborn like many the soldier after years of war - they have a journey of the soul to rejoin a peaceful society - I see it as if we have Odysseus coming out of the ferment of the earth - like it or not, for thousands of year women were considered close to the earth because of their ability to bring to term a man's seed -

Odysseus experiences like Noah, or even the creation story and pieces of the Death and resurrection of Christ - there are pieces of all of it - the storm at sea - the waves - the raft or boat built in the four days which is the sacred number to Hermes - his raft had a mast signifying the Tree of Life  the cosmic axis transcending good and evil, called also, the Tree of  Knowledge with its knowledge of good and evil - bringing him close to the banks but he had to be wary of where he landed and then choosing the Olive bush with two bushes from the same root -  two, duality of nature, conflict and reflection - and the Olive - Achievement, Immortality, fertility, peace, plenty, Zeus' crown to Hera's moon - but mostly it symbolizes renewal of life.

And so like many of the stories including Nursery Tales that are nothing more than mythology dressed up or is it down - the stories are often brutal filled with monsters inflicting monstrous acts or stories with wild sexual escapades. I think some take all this at face value - and even try to in-act what they read - while others see a deeper symbolism is what we believe is behavior worthy of a jail cell.

I do like what James C. Thompson,  B.A., M.Ed. says about women in ancient Greece - "Most of our written evidence from the ancient world was produced by educated, well-to-do men. They have undoubtedly left us a reasonably accurate picture of their own life, but how much trust can we put in the comments they made on the lives of everyone else Nowhere is this situation more troubling than in Ancient Greece where women were largely regarded as inferior creatures scarcely more intelligent than children. Most of the written record comes from Athens; the little bit we know about the other Greek states was more often than not written by an Athenian

The picture that emerges is that seen by the men of the age. There is no reason to doubt its accuracy as far as the law and public appearance is concerned and we certainly know what men thought of women. What women's life was like out of public sight or in the company of other women must remain largely a mystery to us.

Keep that caveat in mind as you proceed to the pages on specific aspects of Ancient Greece."

[BarbStAubrey]

Just thought of something - sorta off the wall but fun - if in legend, alder trees surrounded Apple orchard islands for protection I wonder if there were Apple Trees on this lush, luxuriant island of Ogygia and Calypso was our first Eve.

Evidently Odysseus looses all his mates in war and  those aboard the ship returning to Ithaca before he came to Ogygia - how do we know this? Is this explained in the Iliad? Or is it just the 'oh by the way' bit of information that we can take from the brief announcement with no backstory included in Book 5 - or do other translations go into more detail as to how and when and where and who and how many etc that this shipwreck if that what it was happened.

[roshanarose]

Jude : According to Calypso he is also a great lover yet loyal to his wife. Calypso, and those who believe this are missing the obvious, aren't they? 

I read somewhere (sorry Ginny I forgot the source) that after 10 years as a warrior and therefore devoid of female company, Odysseus was eager to leave the company of men.  Perhaps that is why "The Odyssey" (as someone else has suggested) is more about women than the "Iliad".   

[Babi]

Sorry, GUM, he doesn't. His note states, "Line numbers throughout this book refer to the
Greek text. A few lines thought spurious or out of place in antiquity, and later, have been
omitted from the translation." He lists them.
  Fitzgerald then goes on to thank various people for their comments, corrections and suggestions. The line that really intrigued me, though, was "One salutary blast came from Ezra Pound." Now I would love to know what that was about!

  I was about to add another note, but I see it is not from Ch. Five.  I am finding the "Odyssey"
so easy to read, I keep getting ahead of the discussion.

[Gumtree]

Babi Oh yes, I am too -finding O easy to read - for me the Cook translation is perfect and Rieu is Ok too... but I'm only just level pegging with the reading and discussion.

Ezra Pound - I can't say that this is what your Fitzgerald was referring to but wouldn't mind betting that it is. This extract is published along with other comments from various sources in a section of my Cook.

Ezra Pound  - [The Homeric World]

The Homeric world, very human. The Odyssey high water mark for the adventury story, as for example Odysseus on the spar after shipwreck. Sam Smiles never got any further in preaching self-reliance. A world of irresponsible gods, a very high society without recognisable morals, the individual responsible to himself.

Source  The Odyssey Homer, Trans & ed Albert Cook. (Norton Critical Edition) Page 406

There is a note which indicates the extract comes from Ezra Pound, Guide to Kulchur (New York, New Directions Publishing Corp n.d) p.38 copyright 1970.

I had to look up Sam Smiles -23 December 1812 – 16 April 1904 he was a Scottish author and reformer.
The origins of Smiles' most famous book, Self-Help, lay in a speech he gave in March 1845 in response to a request by a Mutual Improvement Society, published as The Education of the Working Classes. In it he said:

I would not have any one here think that, because I have mentioned individuals who have raised themselves by self-education from poverty to social eminence, and even wealth, these are the chief marks to be aimed at. That would be a great fallacy. Knowledge is of itself one of the highest enjoyments. The ignorant man passes through the world dead to all pleasures, save those of the senses...Every human being has a great mission to perform, noble faculties to cultivate, a vast destiny to accomplish. He should have the means of education, and of exerting freely all the powers of his godlike nature.[2]

The book was initially rejected by publishers but Smiles published it at his own expense 1859 and it sold like a hot cake. 20,000 copies in one year and by the time of Smiles' death in 1904 it had sold over a quarter of a million.
 Self-Help "elevated [Smiles] to celebrity status: almost overnight, he became a leading pundit and much-consulted guru.

Source was Wikipedia --- Shhh... don't tell Ginny

 Smiles was certainly preaching self reliance and of course this is exactly what we, (as well as Ezra Pound) are finding in Odysseus -even though he is being helped by the Gods,  he relies on himself to build the raft and he doesn't jump immediately to suggestions made by Ino but continues on until he is forced to abandon his craft. Even then he relies on himself to find a landfall.

I like Ezra Pound's summary -a very human world - the high water mark for adventure stories - irresponsible gods - high society without morals - and individual responsibility.  I think the discussion has touched on all of those already.

[ginny]

hahaha Oh wow Ezra Pound! We had to read no end of him in college, I wonder why,  now. He was considered a Modern American (was he American?) poet.

Shows you how old I am? hahahaa Oh horrors I just read his bio in the famous Wikipedia, why on earth did they insist we read so much of him? Golly moses, I think I'll pass on reading any more, I had no idea.

Man this hits it right on the spot, doesn't it?

Ezra Pound  - [The Homeric World]


 A world of irresponsible gods, a very high society without recognizable morals, the individual responsible to himself.

Last night for lack of anything whatsoever on TV I watched Jersey Shore. There were several episodes of it on at once. I sat fascinated. I had never seen it.  I have been trying  to figure it out ever since. But one thing is clear: without recognizable morals and the individual responsible to himself certainly fits this series. Everything old is new again.

I wonder if that's good or bad. I liked your analysis Gum of how he sets to and does it without advice. Of course this process has not particularly won for him now. I guess if I were he, given my own temperament, I'd have concluded it wasn't working. But he... is he persevering or is he just sitting and crying?  When you look at him really what is he doing? Who gets him up and out?

Is it his efforts  or is it Zeus, Hermes,  Calypso?

I dunno maybe I'm being too hard on him,  I mean why hasn't he been able to out talk Calypso, he's sassy enough with her when she tried to help (or gives him an ax) ahaha I still can't get over that.

Babi, what a good point on: He points out the discrepancy in the gods reaction to  immortal/ mortal relationships.  He also makes a statement, “..the best thing in the world being a strong house held in serenity where man and wife agree.’

And at present it's clear O agrees with nobody.

I'm still trying to get over Jersey Shore. What's the point of that program? I wonder if any of them have ever read the Odyssey?

RR, this is interesting: Perhaps that is why "The Odyssey" (as someone else has suggested) is more about women than the "Iliad".  I am sure after 10 years of war he's sick of it, but he seems unhappy here. He may have done better WITH the men, tho I seem to remember a lot of arguing and jockeying for position, particularly with Ajax. He's probably depressed to have been gotten the better of by women (would you say he has been gotten the better of?) I wonder what's keeping him with Calypso.

This is a really good question, Barbara: Evidently Odysseus looses all his mates in war and  those aboard the ship returning to Ithaca before he came to Ogygia - how do we know this? Is this explained in the Iliad? Or is it just the 'oh by the way' bit of information that we can take from the brief announcement with no backstory included in Book 5 - or do other translations go into more detail as to how and when and where and who and how many etc that this shipwreck if that what it was happened

I think Homer is going to do flashbacks and show us how.  I bet the reaction of somebody sitting around a campfire listening to this would be the same: how did it happen? And they would be full of interest. Maybe it's a teaser,  we know he set out with tons of man but they are all gone. We've presented with the end result and don't know how it happened. I bet we find out.

I thought this same thing: if in legend, alder trees surrounded Apple orchard islands for protection I wonder if there were Apple Trees on this lush, luxuriant island of Ogygia and Calypso was our first Eve.  It sounds like Eden, anyway. In the creation myths of the Greeks there WAS a sort of Eden too, that time is divided into four ages. But he's a very unhappy  Adam.

That is a very interesting quote by James C. Thompson! I am glad you put it in here.

I keep thinking about Jersey Shore and the Odyssey.  

 I am finding this easy to read too, I'm surprised, it's easy and fun in short bursts,  and I am shocked to see that 6 and 7, so short, are actually half way through my book!!

?? How can we be halfway thru, we just started?

So he's landed on Pyrhgia but there's no place TO land. I love this section, so exciting:

Lombardo:

 411:

Ah, Zeus has let me see land I never hoped to see
And I've cut my way to the end of this gulf,
But there's no way to get out of the grey saltwater.
Only sharp rocks ahead, laced by the breakers,
And beyond them slick stone rising up sheer
Right out of deep water, no place for a foothold,
No way to stand up and wade out of trouble.
If I try to get out here a wave might smash me
Against the stone cliff. Some mooring that would be!
If I swim around farther and try to find
A shelving shore or an inlet from the ea,
I'm afraid  that a squall will take me back out
Groaning deeply  on the teeming dark water,
Or some monster will attack me out of the deep...

Then he slams up against the rocks and gets the skin torn off his hands when the backwash hits him and drags him back out to sea.

That's just great writing. It's better than any movie, or so I think. There's something about it that's....what?

I want to build a raft and stock it full of all the care and provisions she did, such love in those provisions. If you were sending a child off to college you couldn't pack a better care package.

Love this chapter. At least he's trying to do something other than the Jersey  Shore bunch.

Do we want to do 6 and 7 for Wednesday? PatH says they are short?

[BarbStAubrey]

Wow Gumtree did you open Pandora's box for me today - I had all these tasks lined up and instead started to look into Samuel Smiles - at first I was real proud finding and was going to even share here his books on Amazon with the first chapter available to read - then it hit me - his books have to be more than 100  years old and therefore, are no longer under any restrictions. Sure enough they are on Gutenberg and several other places.

I've been fascinated reading Self Help and then decided to look into Character - oh my - oh, oh my Y'all MUST read the second chapter of Character - this is written before 1900 - talk about seeing women/mothers in particular being more valuable than we received credit but more, he promotes that for a successful nation and successful adult population the women need to be educated - the one paragraph of course says exactly what we have been riling about reading Homer with the examples of Penelope in his story.

First here is the link to Character by Samuel Smiles, Gutenberg

And then the quote near the end of this chapter:

The highest praise which the ancient Romans could express of a noble matron was that she sat at home and span—"DOMUM MANSIT, LANAM FECIT." In our own time, it has been said that chemistry enough to keep the pot boiling, and geography enough to know the different rooms in her house, was science enough for any woman; whilst Byron, whose sympathies for woman were of a very imperfect kind, professed that he would limit her library to a Bible and a cookery-book. But this view of woman's character and culture is as absurdly narrow and unintelligent, on the one hand, as the opposite view, now so much in vogue, is extravagant and unnatural on the other—that woman ought to be educated so as to be as much as possible the equal of man; indistinguishable from him, except in sex; equal to him in rights and votes; and his competitor in all that makes life a fierce and selfish struggle for place and power and money.

Now before we get too excited he also is true to the paternal views of the Nineteenth century - he wants women at least to be educated BUT...he espouses the bird in the gilded cage sort of thinking...

But while it is certain that the character of a nation will be elevated by the enlightenment and refinement of woman, it is much more than doubtful whether any advantage is to be derived from her entering into competition with man in the rough work of business and polities. Women can no more do men's special work in the world than men can do women's. And wherever woman has been withdrawn from her home and family to enter upon other work, the result has been socially disastrous. Indeed, the efforts of some of the best philanthropists have of late years been devoted to withdrawing women from toiling alongside of men in coalpits, factories, nailshops, and brickyards...

Nor is there any reason to believe that the elevation and improvement of women are to be secured by investing them with political power. There are, however, in these days, many believers in the potentiality of "votes," 1122 who anticipate some indefinite good from the "enfranchisement" of women. It is not necessary here to enter upon the discussion of this question. But it may be sufficient to state that the power which women do not possess politically is far more than compensated by that which they exercise in private life—by their training in the home those who, whether as men or as women, do all the manly as well as womanly work of the world.

[roshanarose]

Ginny:  He's probably depressed to have been gotten the better of by women (would you say he has been gotten the better of?) I wonder what's keeping him with Calypso.

I have been puzzling over this too.  Or rather I have been puzzling over why Homer allowed his "hero" to spend so much time in one place.  I am making a concerted effort NOT to read Homer as history.  It has been said before, but O is definitely out of the action during those 7 years he is with Calypso.  Maybe Homer condensed the Calypso story, or maybe it was a "snippet" of a longer adventure.  Does anyone know?    

At this stage of The Odyssey I don't think O has been "gotten the better of by women".  Poseidon seems to be his main problem.  I agree that V is a beautifully written "Book".  If you have been hurt by rocks while swimming or surfing it is easy to identify with O's attempts to gain land.

[ginny]

Wow, I just turned on CNN, Operation Odyssey  Dawn just hit the Ghadafi Compound. I didn't know they called it Operation Odyssey Dawn!

[BarbStAubrey]

haha NOT Rosy Fingered Dawn but Odyssey Dawn - ah so - maybe it has to do with the first letters actually having another meaning OD - I am thinking a lot of these war names hide what they really would like to say... a lot of fireworks for sure - seems more like Iliad Dawn or Trojan Dawn than Odyssey Dawn - it sure is easy isn't it Ginny to be rooted in front of the news on a day like this - what a week...

roshanarose - what about considering the meaning of the number 7 - that may have something to do with why 7 years -  the universe was created in 7 days - 7 is considered a complete number with 3 of the heavens and the soul and four of the earth and the body. It is the first number that contains both spirit and body - it is considered a perfect number and is the number of the Great Mother - there are 7 cosmic stages, 7 heavens and 7 gates to 7 hells, 7 pillars of wisdom, 7 days of the week, 7 notes of the Diatonic scale, 7 wonders of the world, 7 deadly sins, 7 branches on the Tree of Life each having 7 leaves, 7 strings on Apollo's lyre, Pan has 7 pipes, and 7 is the sacred number for Apollo, Minerva and Mars.

As the battle goes on today, if the universe was made in 7 days as we know a 24 hour day I wonder if similar to those who think the 7 day theory is simply the use of a number then, the number 7 could have been used to convey a message - in all actuality this is a story and who knows how long or, if a real Odysseus was on that Island - somehow the torment of this character, that showed itself in tears along with nights in a love-nest cave, seemed like 7 years - Wait a minute - I remember reading - during this time in history there was no knowledge of an actual year except for the seasons of the year - so even at best we can assume 7 Springs, 7 Summers, 7 Autumns and 7 Winters of his discontent have gone by...

I am amazed at his physical strength to be buffeted around in deep water by a storm for 2 days and then jockey his swim for a landing location on the beach for another day and actually getting himself to a spot under the olive bushes rather than simply landing half conscious where ever a wave swept him ashore or where ever he could climb over rocks to reach the shore. I guess living on what is described as a lush Island allowed him a food supply that aided his physicality.

hmm - just looked it up and Cadmus, the father of the girl with the lovely ankles, Ino - evidently he is credited with bringing the alphabet to the Greeks, the Phoenician letters.

However, I'm with Babi - I would like to get on with the story - Ginny are we planning on a week for each of the 24 chapters or is there an alternate plan that I have forgotten...I'm  imagining the next chapter will help us put in place the chapter preceding each chapter.

[kidsal]

Received my Loeb Homer, Odyssey, Books 1-12 with Murray translation yesterday.  Will order the remainder next week.  Tiny book!

[ginny]

Sally, isn't it? Tiny. In some ways it brings back long forgotten memories of old old Latin texts with their (was it called rice paper? What IS rice paper? Thin thin pages, tho these are sturdy enough). Still it does resonate and actually adds to the thrill. I am such a sucker for literal translation. But even IT has to be changed to go with today's idiom.

Barbara, I did not make that connection! Rosy Fingered Dawn is not the best application for a coalition attack, possibly,  but I missed that connection to Dawn  completely.  I just jumped at Odyssey. What do we think the coalition means by Odyssey Dawn?

What an interesting post on 7 and his physical strength, had not thought  of that.  And now battered and bruised, he's pulled leaves up over him on a new land.  I was taken by his prayer to the river god, too.

The Phoenicians and their travels with the alphabet has always seemed impossibly romantic to me. They are one reason that Severus and Hannibal's portraits look like they did, people forget about the Phoenicians.

RR oh yes, the Earthshaker Poseidon, he's been busy lately, hasn't he? What awful disasters, what a time we're living in. No I meant between men and women, how is he faring, how does he measure up? I'm thinking the women at this point are stronger, or are they? Just musing, I agree Poseidon has done a job on him.


This is an excellent question, can anybody find out?  Maybe Homer condensed the Calypso story, or maybe it was a "snippet" of a longer adventure.  Does anyone know?

Why would the Calypso story be included at ALL, do you think? I never thought of it much till you mentioned it.


____________________________________________________

Barbara asked about the schedule, we don't have one! We said we'd go along and then when ready move on. Would you like to do 6 and 7 for  Wednesday? They are short, so PatH says?

I want (1) not to leave these wonderful descriptions and (2) to get to the Cyclops. Thus far O is not perhaps the deepest drawn character there is, but how might there be time with all these adventures? Kind of like Spider Man or something, the Man on a Mission. But he does seem to tell us about himself, his wants, his grief, the jury is still out here. Any last thoughts n 5 or  1-5? Let's move to 6 and 7 for Wednesday?

[ginny]

I want to say I'm so glad we're reading this. I'm so glad you wanted to read this and we can talk about it together. It's so...comforting.... somehow with this crazy world we're living in, TO be reading it. I've read a lot of good books lately. I'm reading Old Filth which is a great book, perhaps not one we might discuss in public,  but a great book on the lines of an R rated  Major Pettigrew,  but nothing comes close to the thrill of the depth of the Odyssey, what a joy!

[Babi]

 That was excellent, GUM! I had the impression Pound's contribution to Fitzgerald's
translation was more personal, but your find could very well be correct reference.
I do like his summary of the 'Homeric World'.
 I've never watched "Jersey Shore", GINNY, but I've had glimpses of similar shows. The
only reason I can see for the popularity of such shows is that they seem to justify
immorality and irresponsibility by making it seem that 'everyone is doing it'. What really
bugs me is that young people watching such shows assume that is true.

"..the chapter preceding each chapter"?  Am I missing something here, BARB? This seems to suggest a pattern in which alternate chapters are introductions to the succeeding chapter.
I haven't noticed anything like that.

[BarbStAubrey]

Babi I find any book I read that the next chapter always clarifies for me the preceding chapter - like any continuous story will - it is so easy to get caught up with baited breath on the part of the story we are hearing or reading but to connect it to the whole is a journey and the next chapter most often shades the last bit that is part of the story.

Thanks for mentioning the Major Ginny, I finally took time last night to start reading Major Pettigrew's Last Stand and it is living up to the delight that others have championed - of you are looking for a story with an undercurrent of light humor to balance your reading this great Epic, that does enlist strong reactions, the Major's story is a contemporary, romantic story for the over 60 crowd that I have to thank, with a tip of the hat, those who read the book and recommended it to us here on Senior Learn.  

Oh I am so glad we are pushing ahead Ginny - the story grabs you and then all the bits can - or it least for me can - cause a jamlog that in order to sort out reminds me of seeing the loggers jump from one log to another at times barely hanging on to their balance. Now, it would be easy to simply read this as a story but once past the adventure it is bringing up all sorts of connections and references - so far, nothing enlists a hearty laugh while reading but who knows we may yet be hit by that emotion - Homer seems to be hitting so many. This last chapter reminded me of the old silent movies about tying the heroine to the railroad track - so the gods do the tying and then it takes the humans to cut themselves loose and get on with life.

I never did get very far reading Ezra Pound's poetry - I even purchased a couple of cheat books to help me understand his work but I decided I need a class to understand what he is saying - I do remember the Canto as starting with Odysseus on his way to I think hell to get answers about the future - it all got mixed up for me between the Odyssey and Dante - Babi have you read Pound's work - were you able to follow along - please, post in the Poetry discussion any help you can offer - this poet is a challenge.

Funny how things come to you in the oddest times - as I was taking a shower a picture popped in my head about not having a calendar to track time and yet, a poet talks about years - I bet tracking yearly time was like tracking Easter - it comes every year but the time is different because it is dependent on the moon. And so I could see the issue of time as years of Easters - ancient Greeks cannot go look up on a calendar to figure out when Easter was last year never mind predict when it will occur next year because it is always when the moon is such and such and when the leaves are such and such or, certain fish are running or, flies are swarming or, whatever that is a special event in nature that goes with the moon's activity - just trying to get a handle on what it was like to live without the very basic things we take for granted.

Lots of reading on my plate while trying to fit in so many Spring time activities - I could use an 8 day week about now.

[ginny]

Yes Major Pettigrew is a wonderful book and Pedln's daughter knows the author and came to her book club too!

Babi: The only reason I can see for the popularity of such shows is that they seem to justify
immorality and irresponsibility by making it seem that 'everyone is doing it'.

I am already loving Book VI! Washing on stones, I love this entire thing. I hope to learn how one actually washes anything on a stone. Is that why people used to use washboards?

 I want one of those new washers, front loaders, are they British or German? I have seen them in both countries. They use a teaspoon of water, how does this get clothes clean? Yet they swear it's cleaner! How can it be? (Despite, the German ones, taking  half a day to even begin to wash).

Can't wait to hear this: the issue will be: water: is more better or worse? hahahaa

[JudeS]

Ginny
If you are reading "Old Filth" by Jane Gardam you must follow it up with "The Man in the Wooden Hat" which is the sequel.  It is the same story but from the wife Betty's point of view. The two books together round out the picture that is one sided in each book.
Let me know what you think of the book(s).

[ginny]

Oh thank you! I was looking it up for something for my e-reader by the same author and saw that one but they don't give (in my Ibook store) reviews, so I thought (she's written a bunch of them) that I'd go to Amazon and look there first. If you recommend it I'll get it, too, but for the e-reader.

Did you like either?

[JoanK]

BARB: "Evidently Odysseus looses all his mates in war and  those aboard the ship returning to Ithaca before he came to Ogygia - how do we know this? Is this explained in the Iliad?"

No, here  in the Odyssey. Homer has jumped us into the middle of the story (actually, near the end of the story). Chapters 8 on will tell us how he got to where we now find him.

Odyssey has become a word meaning any long journey or quest: I'll bet that's the sense in which it's being used. The beginning of the journey to freedom. I'll bet they're saying "It's a long journey, but were here only to get it started."

Okay, I can't wait to get to the next chapter. tell you why then.

Smiley sounds like a typical "enlightened" view of his day. To misquote Orwell: men and women are equal, but some are more equal than others.

[BarbStAubrey]

Thanks Joan - so the explanation will come - great - maybe many things will be cleared up as we read...

OK Ginny if you want an experience doing laundry in the river here is your opportunity  
Wash laundry in the river as they did 1000s of years ago

And here is a link to a modern in comparison History of laundry
From what I have read on other sites it appears during the BC time it wasn't dirt so much as lice and also, the setting of the dyes after weaving, and finally for warmth the first we had after skins was felt - where ever there was weaving there was felting which is taking the wool cloth to the river and tumbling and swishing it - it is the action in the water that causes the felting to occur - so when your wool items shrink it is because you swished them in the water - lay them and let them float and do not wring them out and they will not shrink up, which is the start of the felting process. Used to teach the history of design and the history of needlework and weaving,.

Oh yes the cleaning and bleaching and ridding clothing of lice was done with a combo of mud that was a clay mud mixed equally with water and urine - sorry but that is it. In recent history we know the molecular make up of this combo but then it simply did the job. Some areas had pumice that is an excellent stone for cleaning but I do not know if that was a stone used in ancient Greece or if the rivers of Greece had pumice stones. I understand pumice is the rock from lava.

[BarbStAubrey]

 Pedln wow to know someone who is achieving fame - does your daughter live near Helen Simonson? Her memory of her home is written as if she was a British author - wonderful and amazing - but then she may go back to visit family often enough to keep her memories fresh and alive. The story is a delight and her writing is so refreshing - I am loving the book. I think Joan P was going to ask Helen Simonson to join us for the discussion - if she is overwhelmed with all that must be expected of her I hope she could peek in at least one time. We shall see what we shall  see - in the meantime there are enough topics in her story to explore so that we will easily be busy for the month.

Sorry Ginny a by the way - back the the journey of Odysseus...or again, another side path - just spent the last hour listening to what is going on with Odyssey Dawn - I like that Joan - it sounds so right - a journey towards freedom for Libya - interesting difference between the leader of Libya as compared to the long time leader that was in Egypt -

Looks like Homer's Odysseus meets another god or is it a goddess - I found several - who is Pallas - under which shell is Pallas - is the Pallas in the story yet a different Pallas from any of these...

PALLAS - a Titan god of warcraft and the Greek campaign season of late spring and early summer. He was the father of Victory, Rivalry, Strength and Power by Styx (Hate), children who turned to the side of Zeus during the Titan-War. Pallas' name was derived from the Greek word pallô meaning "to brandish (a spear)." Some say he was the winged husband of Styx, the father of Nike and (if the rumors are true) Eos.

PALLAS - a nymph of Lake Tritonis in Libya, North Africa. In the mythology of the local tribes, both she and the Libyan Athena were  daughters of Triton (a Libyan sea-god identified with Poseidon) and Tritonis (goddess of the salt-water lake Tritonis, identified with Amphitrite). In their childhood war games, Athena accidentally slew Pallas. The story was reenacted in an annual festival celebrated by the lakeside tribes.    

PALLAS ATHENA - Greek goddess of wisdom, of household arts and crafts, of spinning and weaving, of textiles. Inventor of the flute, the plough and the ox-yoke, the horse bridle and the chariot. Athena, goddess of war, guardian of Athens, the city named for her; defender of heroes, champion of justice and civil law, who sprang fully-grown and fully-armed from the head of her father, Zeus, ruler of the gods on Mount Olympus.

PALLAS(#4): A son of EVANDER and best buddies with Aeneas.

PALLAS(#5): A son of Pandion, King of Athens, who had fifty sons known as Pallantids. They were all wiped out by THESEUS.

[kidsal]

Odysses Dawn means nothing.  The army has a list of words and they must select one word from the A list (between, for example O and W) and one word from the B list (between A and F)

Book VI.  Interesting that the Phaeacians live aloof from other peoples.  Have no interaction with them.
Nausicaa asks Odysseus to go ahead of her as she fears the people will believe she prefers a stranger for a husband which will cause a scandal. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Kidsel did you get the notion that the parents the mother and father she speaks to are her intended parents - the parents of her future husband - and that she is trying to ingratiate herself with them by offering to do the laundry? The description of her sleeping arrangement had me thinking she was a young women in her home but then the way she worded the bit about his [her father's] sons when she seeks his permission for the wagon -  unless the sons who I would assume then would be her brothers are possible marriage partners??!!?? 

And this Pallas from the beach pops up again in this chapter - who is he or it a she?

[Mippy]

Hi, all!   I'm reading along  and find your posts  most informative!

Barb wrote:  Pallas from the beach pops up again in this chapter - who is he or it a she?
She's the goddess,  Pallas Athena, master/mistress of many disguises:

Here's a link:    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena
                                                          
Sally/Kidsal ~ Odyssey Dawn means nothing.  That's right!  I was about to post that, too.  Thanks!  The word odyssey is creeping into English as a non-proper noun, isn't it.

[ginny]

Sally, that's priceless: it means nothing. What a hoot.

Why would Odyssey be on the list in the first place? It must mean something for them to put it there or is it as Mippy says a ...what is a non proper noun, Mippy?

Listen, just jump in any time and say your own piece!

Barbara, thank you for the washing stuff and the felt issue, who knew felting? Why am I getting a picture of wrinkled ancients running around wrinkled? I'll read the link next! There are lots of places people still beat on rocks.

I keep thinking of Poe and The Raven: a pallid bust of Pallas just above my chamber door.


And the raven, never flitting, still is sitting, still is sitting
On the pallid bust of Pallas just above my chamber door

I love Poe.

[Babi]

Okay, BARB, I see what you mean. My unhelpful response to your question about Pound is
posted in Poetry.
   Oh, I'm sure this is the daughter of the house.  I'm not surprised that she refers to her brothers, in speaking to her Father, as his sons.  My husband and I frequently referred to our
children, in their troublesome mode, as "your son" or "your daughter".   

[pedln]

Just marking my place, am trying to follow along, but behind in reading.  Barbara, I'm emailing you.

So Odyssey Dawn means nothing.  What a disappointment.  Like being told there is no Santa Claus.  I think the powers-that-be have made a big mistake.  They could have said  that it's the beginning (Dawn/day) of a quest -- for -- ?  Is "quest"  the now non-proper meaning for odyssey?

[roshanarose]

Hi Barb - I am fairly certain that this is the closest personification of Athena Pallas you are enquiring about.  

"PALLAS - a nymph of Lake Tritonis in Libya, North Africa. In the mythology of the local tribes, both she and the Libyan Athena were  daughters of Triton (a Libyan sea-god identified with Poseidon) and Tritonis (goddess of the salt-water lake Tritonis, identified with Amphitrite). In their childhood war games, Athena accidentally slew Pallas. The story was reenacted in an annual festival celebrated by the lakeside tribes."    But she is also personified in items one and two on your list.  A combo, so to speak.

Apart from the Parthenon (meaning Virgin) Athena also has another  beautifully proportioned temple on the Acropolis.  Its name is the Temple of Athena Nike.  Nike means victor/victory in AG and MG.  In modern day English we use it for the 'SWOOSH" a symbol (imagine a large tick) for a popular brand of sneakers.  It is pronounced Ny-kee.

Parthogenesis means "virgin birth" an extremely unusual medical condition.    Mary, mother of Jesus, is probably the only woman we know who has experienced parthenogenesis.
If you know of any other instances of this rarity, please tell us.

Barb - btw thanks for the very interesting symbolism of the number 7.  It has always been my favourite number.

[BarbStAubrey]

ohhh so we are talking about Athena again - she sure gets around - I will look for your email pedln - as usual it takes forever to comb through the daily allotment  - running late - one of those days...