Classics Book Club, The

[PatH]

  
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May 20-----Book  XIV:  Eumaeus the Loyal Swineherd   

Odysseus and Eumaios
17th century etching
Theodor van Thulden (1606 - 1669)
Fine Arts Museums of San Francisco

  

Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny  

Useful Links:

1. Critical Analysis: Free SparkNotes background and analysis  on the Odyssey
2. Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:
3. Initial Points to Watch For: submitted by JudeS
4. Maps:
Map of the  Voyages of Odysseus
Map of Voyages in order
Map of Stops Numbered
Our Map Showing Place Names in the Odyssey

Odysseus conversing with Eumaios
Engraving and etching on paper
John Flaxman
1805
Tate Gallery

Thank you, PatH

[PatH]

A knot is a nautical mile per hour.  A nautical mile is 6,076 feet (a land mile is 5,280 feet), so 7-8 knots is 8-9.2 miles per hour.

The name knot comes from the way they used to measure the speed of a ship.  You have a rope, attached to a specially designed piece of wood, with knots tied in it at intervals.  You throw the log overboard, and let the rope slip freely through your fingers.  You count the knots that slide by during 28 or 30 seconds, timed with an hourglass.  The knot spacing has been calculated so that the number of knots equals the speed in nautical miles per hour.

Why is a nautical mile longer than a land mile?  It's the distance of one minute of latitude.

[PatH]

Ooops, Gumtree, you were posting while I was writing.  I didn't know how fast the triremes could sail though.

Can the Odyssey be a tragedy when the main characters overcome their adversity and don't come to grief?

[bookad]

Babi--I read once of a person who considered her/him self to be an arm chair traveller
and he/she travelled vicariously--love that word
Deb

[Frybabe]

I remember often hearing that getting there is more than half the fun. I think that, often, people are so tuned into the "getting there" that the actual end of the journey is somewhat anticlimactic.

[JudeS]

Ginny
My post # 591 mentions "The Albatross" and quotes some lines from that poem.
 Now that was a tragic poem! You felt the horror and the tragedy right from the beginning. I find it very hard to relate to the Odyssey as a tragedy.
The Odyssey (at least so far) is a rip roaring adventure story.  The Hero always gets away.  The Hero overcomes all the difficulties he comes upon. If he has a flaw, it is being TOO adventuresome and losing his neverending crew to the horrors that he personally overcomes. However since his crews are almost all faceless for us, I do not think many people could see their loss as  the underpinnings that make The Odyssey a tragedy.

A great tragedy,say KIng Lear, ends in the death and\or destruction of a beloved chaeacter. The death is usually caused by a misunderstanding.  Think Romeo and Juliet. We see these situations as tragic since they could have been avoided ..if only......

[JoanK]

I think the idea that we can avoid our fate if our character is pure is more modern than the greeks. In Greek stories, everything that the characters do to avoid their fate, instead lads them directly to it (for example Oedepus). It is our "Protestant Ethic" interpretation to say that his character must have been flawed, if he was only a better person, he coould have avoided it.

[Frybabe]

Okay, where are we? Still on Chapter 13?

Done with classes, exams out of the way. Hurray!

[Gumtree]

Ginny asked : Is this tragedy?   The question has been dogging me all day so here are some thoughts dredged up from the dim and distant past...
I had an equally long, but I think, more coherent post all ready and lost it somewhere in cyber space...

The classic definition of tragedy, at least for Greek tragedy, is Aristotle’s Poetics which is important to any study of tragedy because Aristotle’s ideas and their implications have become woven into our general conception of what constitutes tragedy even though it is no longer regarded as being the final word on the subject. Within its limitations Poetics is as valid today as it ever was and there is no doubt that Aristotle's work has given rise to the ideas we have on the theory of tragedy and the effect tragedy has upon the individual.


Poetics is concerned with poetry as a form of artistic expression and the term poetry is meant to include ‘all imaginative writings’ and so covers the whole range and gamut of literature. Aristotle is particularly concerned with what he considered to be the two highest types of poetry: the tragedy and the epic, and he goes on to examine their nature and to discuss the way the poets obtain their effects and what effect the work has upon the audience.

The chief examples he uses are Homer’s Iliad and Odyssey - he also refers to the great tragedies of Aeschylus, Sophocles and Euripides and he tends to regard the Oedipus of Sophocles as some kind of perfection in tragedy. His comments on tragedy are therefore based on what is regarded as the chief and best work of the Greek creative mind and one reason why his comments are so valuable to the study of tragedy is that he was referring to works which we can still read today and so we can relate his comments to the texts he was using for his examples.

All of the discussion revolves around the assertion that tragedy arouses and stimulates pity and fear to such a pitch that those emotions are released from us and we are left feeling appeased and satisfied and perhaps better able to deal with our own lives. If this is so, then tragedy has a deep psychological impact upon us and it is no wonder that the theatre was considered to be an essential part of Greek education.

Another concept to be found in the Poetics is the theory of the ideal tragic hero and his tragic flaw and there has been a widespread acceptance of Aristotle’s thought on these ideas. For example, the idea of tragic flaw is frequently used in criticism of Shakespeare’s tragedies: Macbeth’s overwhelming ambition, Othello’s unreasoning jealousy and so on. Some folk believe that if you find the flaw you will have the meaning of the play in a nutshell but of course the tragic flaw is not all there is to a tragic hero especially in the hands of Shakespeare or Sophocles.

In tragedy, the characters are often ignorant of the nature of their deeds and unaware of the implications of their action. Sometimes they don’t know the true identity of the people about them. Then at some point in the play there is the recognition of what they have done and who the others really are.

The classic example of this is of course Oedipus where these two factors are present and closely interwoven. At his moment of truth, or recognition, Oedipus realises that he has indeed fulfilled the prophecy that he had taken so much trouble to avoid; he had unknowingly killed his own father and married his mother in ignorance of her identity and his own. He recognises his deed and his subsequent self-blinding is a symbolic act.

There seem to be two fundamental aspects of tragedy. One is man,  working out his own destiny or making his own choices. The other is the everlasting laws of a definite order which is unchanging and under the guidance of the Gods and the plays concentrate upon the interaction between the two. It is the resultant struggle between them which gives us an Oedipus and an Antigone.

Fundamentally, tragedy, like other forms of great literature,  deals with essential moral questions about our being. It expresses universal truths about the human condition. There is always a conflict between some inevitable power and the tragic hero. The tragic hero always makes a real and conscious effort to avoid disaster. The inevitable power is always the winner and the hero is always destroyed.

Writers on this subject often draw a distinction between classical tragedy which generally attributes the human disaster to fate or chance and modern tragedy which attributes the disaster to a failing in the human character. But, in both cases the disaster is brought about by some overriding necessity and the final result is inevitable.

In his book The Spirit of Tragedy Herbert  J Muller wrote:

   Throughout the ages men have known tragedy in their earthly existence, they have always lamented that life is hard, that man’s fate is to toil, to suffer and to die. All civilised societies have produced literature, and most have produced drama. Yet men have very rarely written what we call tragedy. By general consent, there have been only four important periods, all of them brief: the ancient Greek, confined to Athens of the 5th Century BC; the Elizabethan, in the generation of Shakespeare; the French classical, in the generation of Corneille and Racine; and the modern, inaugurated by Ibsen.

At that, there is some dispute about the genuineness of French classical tragedy, and much more dispute about modern tragedy. Furthermore these periods have all been confined to the Western world; none of the great Eastern civilisations produced tragedy.

The question, then, is why the experience that all men know has so seldom found its appropriate expression in literature, and then only in one quarter of the globe.  The question involves the distinctive values of Western civilisation. It is accordingly a large subject. It is also a highly controversial one. But it is forced upon us, I believe, by any serious consideration of the nature and uses of tragedy.

Muller goes on to argue his case in an erudite and scholarly manner for some 600 odd pages but ultimately, along with many other writers on the subject, he too can reach no definite conclusions as to the nature and cause of tragedy in our literature. We are left then to simply enjoy the experience of tragedy in literature.

The question we have is whether Odyssey is tragedy or not and certainly there are aspects of our story which are indeed tragic. The story meets some of the criteria needed for tragedy - a hero suffering at the whim of the 'fates' or Gods --  with often the inevitability of the outcome taken right out of his hands -the everlasting laws of nature - and there are moral questions and universal truths in plenty - but whether Odysseus is a tragic hero is not clear - not yet anyway - we'll have to wait until the end....

[JudeS]

Gumtree,
Very erudite. However I must go with my gut feeling re The Odyssey.  I feel no sorrow whatsoever for the character, who I imagine, as we all know or can guess, will succeed in the end. That is why it is an adventure rather than a tragedy.
I will quote from a little text on Greek and Roman writers by an unknown professor,Rev.W.T.McNiff:OSC: he is discussing the difference between the Illiad and the Odyssey:
"...the Illiad must move inevitably to its tragic climax and somber end. The resourceful and optimistic character of Odysseus makes his story an entirely different one-a romantic novel with a happy ending. Intellectually and physically gifted, always sure of himself, always in control of the situation, Odysseus is the ideal Greek hero.
...The plot of the Odyssey is complicated. Odysseus'wanderings are interwoven with two important sub-plots: Telemachus search for his father and Penelope's diffuculties with the suitors."
So  complex yes. Tragic, no.

[JoanK]

"none of the great Eastern civilisations produced tragedy."

Is that true? I know very little about it, but I thought some of the Noh plays were tragic. Of course, it would depend on ones definition of tragedy.

"always sure of himself, always in control of the situation, Odysseus is the ideal Greek hero."

What Odessey is he reading? That's not the Odysseus we've seen.

But I agree -- I don't see The Odessey as a tragedy at all. The embedded story of Agammemnon maybe.

[ginny]

What interesting posts!

Babi, that was interesting on the role of journeys in our lives and literature. I remember attending a writing workshop by the poet laureate of SC who said, the idea for writing a mystery is to say to the reader, "I'm going on a journey, you come, too." I thought that was neat.  

I liked Deb's vicarious traveler and Frybabe's interesting point on the end of the journey for some people being anticlimactic, we sort of have that here but we're not to the climax yet. (I don't think landing on Ithaca is the climax of the story, do any of you?)


Jude, I knew there was some reason the Ancient Mariner was haunting me! Thank you for that mention of your prior post on it! I now remember nodding right along to the albatross allusion, not sure where my mind is. hahaha Sorry.

Gum, he haunts me daily.

 Gum and PatH, thank you for the nautical mile. That's pretty fast, to me, I mean for rowers to get you there? 5 mph is a pretty good clip on land, that's how fast my grandson's little tractor goes and it seems fast to me.

And THANK you eternally PatH for this:
The name knot comes from the way they used to measure the speed of a ship.  You have a rope, attached to a specially designed piece of wood, with knots tied in it at intervals.  You throw the log overboard, and let the rope slip freely through your fingers.  You count the knots that slide by during 28 or 30 seconds, timed with an hourglass.  The knot spacing has been calculated so that the number of knots equals the speed in nautical miles per hour.

Why is a nautical mile longer than a land mile?  It's the distance of one minute of latitude.

You lost me on the latitude (I can see I'd be no sailor) but I've always been interested in  the knot thing, and just the image of the log  thrown overboard, reminds me of Sherlock Holmes counting telephone poles from a train.

Those are wonderful thoughts on whether the Odyssey is a tragedy,  Jude, PatH,  Joak K (I stopped short at that description myself), I wondered also about the Odyssey. .

Gum, we appreciate so much your going to that trouble to put that here, I'm always confused on the Aristotelian Tragedy, thank you for condensing it so well. It's a very complex subject.   I remember very clearly Maryal in our Julius Caesar discussion talking about different kinds of tragedy over the ages and the  Aristotle definition was one of many today. Of course the Odyssey IS ancient Greek.

Does anybody have a definition of  today's idea  of "tragedy?"

So this:
The classic definition of tragedy, at least for Greek tragedy, is Aristotle’s Poetics....Aristotle is particularly concerned with what he considered to be the two highest types of poetry: the tragedy and the epic, and he goes on to examine their nature and to discuss the way the poets obtain their effects and what effect the work has upon the audience.

The chief examples he uses are Homer’s Iliad and Odyssey - he also refers to the great tragedies of Aeschylus, Sophocles and Euripides and he tends to regard the Oedipus of Sophocles as some kind of perfection in tragedy. His comments on tragedy are therefore based on what is regarded as the chief and best work of the Greek creative mind and one reason why his comments are so valuable to the study of tragedy is that he was referring to works which we can still read today and so we can relate his comments to the texts he was using for his examples.  is wonderful.

But we tend to think if the ending is not death or whatnot it's not tragic. If the hero does not come to a bad end, we don't consider it tragic. I don't.  

And then when you add to it the fact that this is an Epic as well,  why you've got some kind of thing going.

According to the OCCL, "an epic is a narrative poem on the grand sacle and in majestic style, concerning the exploits and adventures of a superhuman hero engaged in a quest or some serious endeavour. The hero is distinguised above all men by his strrength and courage, and is restrainged only by a sense of honour."

And this book along with the Iliad, is the earliest surviving form of Greek literature.  I do think it says something for it and us that we can read it at all here in 2011.

These are good points:

There seem to be two fundamental aspects of tragedy. One is man,  working out his own destiny or making his own choices. The other is the everlasting laws of a definite order which is unchanging and under the guidance of the Gods and the plays concentrate upon the interaction between the two. It is the resultant struggle between them which gives us an Oedipus and an Antigone.

So the Odyssey has some but not all of the criteria. So far?

Strangely enough I found Chaucer wrote a definition of tragedy as he knew it:

Tragedie is to seyn a certeyn storie,
As old bookes maken us memorie,
Of hym that stood in greet properitee,
And is yfallen out of heigh degree
Into myserie, and endeth wrecchedly.
And they ben versified communely,
Of six feet, which men lepen exametron.

("Tragedy is, as old books inform us, a kind of story concerning someone who had enjoyed great prosperity but has fallen from his high position into misfortune and ends in wretchedness. Tragedies are commonly written in verse with six feet, called hexameters." )

So the Odyssey to our modern eyes lacks what we would consider the punch line: the "ends in wretchedness." We're not TO the end yet, he's wretched enough so far, and fallen from high estate as a hero...isn't this interesting speculation, tho?  If it ended HERE with him in raqs on the shore or living with the swineherd then I think we could say it's a tragedy, but it's going on for another half of the book.

Homer may have done something way outside the box  with this thing. I appreciate it more and more  every day.


The story meets some of the criteria needed for tragedy - a hero suffering at the whim of the 'fates' or Gods --  with often the inevitability of the outcome taken right out of his hands -the everlasting laws of nature - and there are moral questions and universal truths in plenty - but whether Odysseus is a tragic hero is not clear - not yet anyway - we'll have to wait until the end....

But just in case we ARE pondering the similarities so far to classic Aristotelian tragedy, what might seem O's tragic flaw, if he has one?

Just a super discussion here! Thank you all! And more....

[ginny]

Congratulations on ending up your courses, Frybabe! I know you are glad and I hope they ended well for you!

We are, in fact, still on 13. I got the impression some were behind, are we all ready to try 14? 14's not very long and it's sweet but there he goes AGAIN, lying, or is there a reason?

(Interesting note that Bernard Knox makes in his Introduction to Fagles, cited by Spark Notes in that the gods themselves are able to make an exception to xenia, the hospitality thing, when their own egos are bruised.  They say that Fagles claims the most powerful gods never "allow human concerns---the interests of the people whom they favor---to precipitate conflict among themselves....For Zeus, preserving  stable relations with his brother is more important than returning favors to one of his most suppliant peoples.")

I did think that was unfair, to punish the Phaecians by turning their boat into stone when all they were doing was helping like they were supposed to. Now in 14 we have another example of hospitality, let's read ahead for Friday, is everybody willing?

Meanwhile, I love the journey question. I'm trying to think of a book lately I've read which does NOT involve a journey, can you think of one? Of one thing or another? Old Filth certainly has one.

I love these questions! Forgive me for putting them back in here, I can't stop thinking about them:



* Heroes: Why do societies create heroes? What values do we expect our heroes to represent? What values did the Greeks expect their heroes to represent? How does the idea of the "tragic flaw" change the way we look at our heroes? Do we look for tragic flaws today?

* Journeys: Almost all societies contain myths/stories of "The Journey." Why? What is the attraction we have to journeys? What are some of the American Journeys? What lessons, what themes, what values do we see played out in the stories of journeys? (Specific to 'The Odyssey: What was the difference between Odysseus' journey and Telemachus' journey?)

* Character: Whose story is this? Who is the main character, Odysseus or Telemachus? (I love this idea, because we got around the idea of which character changed over the course of the story. Is Odysseus' story really just a vehicle for showing Telemachus' coming of age?) There is so much potential for debate here.

Do you think that the days of Odysseus as a hero are over or will they continue on Ithaca? .

While we're waiting to start discussing 14, assuming we can read it by Friday, what do you think of this one:

 How does the idea of the "tragic flaw" change the way we look at our heroes? Do we look for tragic flaws today?

Let's see, today on the news we hear that Governor Schwarzenegger like former Senator Edwards, appears to have fathered a love child. Another Governor self destructed (thinking about Mark Sanford) both his marriage and his career over the same type of thing.

Do we consider these "tragic flaws?" Do they occur only in literature? Do we even talk about them today? Tragic flaw: something that ....what's the definition of a tragic flaw?

 Babi said, " A 'tragic flaw' is one of those things that seal one's fate. It didn't have to happen, but because of an innate compulsion there was no doubt that it would. It's not simply a bad decision, it's a personality trait. "Othello"
is a good example. He was not a bad man; he was a jealous man who was too ready to believe that he was not loved.  "

And Gum said, "The tragic hero's 'tragic flaw' is usually a kind of stumbling block - often related to pride - but he has to show courage to a high degree and there is an inevitability about his ultimate defeat which occurs by one means or another."

What's an example of a modern "tragic flaw?"

And how about this one? Heroes: Why do societies create heroes? What values do we expect our heroes to represent?

My husband used to dislike  those comic books and movies the kids loved about the "Superhero," SpiderMan, Star Wars, even certain aspects of   Star Trek, tho I argued against it,  and we just about memorized Star Trek, but  he saw something in the creation of the more fantastic  heroes, (the Hulk, the man who turns into dirt, the fire man, the...)  that suggested something to children which was not real about solving problems or something. I did point out the moral positions of Star Trek.  (I think he felt there were enough real life heroes to inspire anybody, if people took the time to learn about them instead. )

 Why ARE these heroes, how ironic a new one, the Governator is just out, so prevalent and popular today?

[ginny]

I just  noticed that Spark Notes has a cute little quiz on the Odyssey, multiple choice, which we can turn into sort of a Millionaire Game, so we can look forward to that at the end and see what we've gotten out of it besides a great read and a wonderful discussion, that is. Might be fun, I love those Millionaire things because sooner or later you can get it.

[kidsal]

American journeys?  Those people who stepped out into the unknown to settle the West.

[Babi]

 Oh, my. Van Thuldens sailors have remarkable feminine backsides. I don't
think the Phaecian sailors would be at all pleased or amused. Mr. Flaxman's
version is much more appropriate.

(That's me, BOOKAD. I can happily visualize what the author describes, without
the heat, bad weather, the long climbs, or the seasickness!)

 I agree, JUDE, the greatest tragedies are those that could have been avoided.
Romeo and Juliet..I wanted to shake some sense into them! Othello! Someone
needed to get in his face and tell him what an ass he was being! Needless
tragedies just make me angry.

  I'm not sure purity of character is key here, JOAN. The flaw of character
that causes one's downfall could easily be an excess of a virtue. And the old
John Knox 'ethic' that it wouldn't happen if you didn't do something to
deserve it, ..I don't think many accept that notion anymore. To put it another
way, "the rain falls on the just and unjust alike".
 I agree with your comment about the Noh plays. The Japanese adore tragedy!

 I am definitely looking ahead to Book 14. One of the thoughts I had when Athena turned Odyssseus into a ..literally...dirty old man, was whether the fine tradition of Greek hospitality applied to wandering bums as well. Happily,  I find that the title of the next book is “Hospitality in the Forest”.

[JudeS]

Ginny
You opened up a conundrum for me when you asked about "American Tragedies".I went to the internet.
One site said that there were only three examples of tragedy in American Lit.:
The Old Man and the Sea-Hemingway
The Great Gatsby-Fitzgerald
Death of a Salesman-Miller
My mind kept going to "A Long Days Journey into Night".
I wasn't so sure about the three books that were listed so I continued to research until I came to the Brittanica list of the Fifty Great Tragedians in Western Literature (starting with the Greeks).
The ONLY American author to make the list was Eugene O'Neill.
I know this is off topic from the Odyssey but I'm glad I read these articles. So thanks Ginny for an interesting sidebar.

[roshanarose]

The more "dilapidated" "the bum"the ever vigilant Greeks who were permanently aware of their Gods' and Goddesses' trickery, the more likely they were to offer hospitality.  This worked well for professional "bums".    The mostgenuine people in giving hospitality I have found are the Hazara people of Afghanistan. 

Ginny - Re Heroes.  I am sure we discussed this earlier in regard to "The Odyssey".

[Gumtree]

Why do we need Heroes:  Yes, I think we did have some discussion on this question quite early on... though there's always more to say...

thought you might like this little quote from Nietzsche: Birth of Tragedy:

  The hero takes the suffering of the world on his shoulders and thus relieves us of the burden.

 So perhaps we need lots of heroes simply because there is so much suffering in the world. He goes on to talk about the tragic hero…

 The tragic hero also serves as an example to us, for he prepares himself for higher existence through his own destruction, not his victories.

Which of course, begs the question of whether we need such an example – what is the ‘higher existence’ and are we all seeking it? – is it our own personal ‘kleos’?

[Gumtree]

Jude: those three American tragedies are an interesting selection - as I read it I thought, 'what about O'Neill?' but like most lists they are usually subjective. I'll check out the Brittanica list just out of interest. thanks..

Arthur Miller's plays have always aroused controvery as to whether or not they are tragedy - especially 'Salesman'

From Miller’s essay  Tragedy and the Common Man 
“The tragic feeling is evoked in us when we are in the presence of a character, who is ready to lay down his life, if need be, to secure one thing – his sense of personal integrity.”

 Miller suggests that we need to rethink the idea of “tragic flaw,” which he sees  not necessarily as a weakness. He says the flaw, or crack in the character, is really nothing but the character’s inherent unwillingness to remain passive in the face of what he conceives to be a challenge to his dignity, his integrity, his honour and his image of his rightful status.

In this essay Miller sees the tragic vision as an optimistic and positive demonstration of  “the indestructible will of man to achieve his humanity”

[Gumtree]

One more:

American playwright Maxwell Anderson called theater "a religious institution dedicated to the exaltation of the spirit of man"

and said, "The theme of tragedy has always been victory in defeat, a man's conquest of himself in the face of annihilation. . . . The message of tragedy is that men are better than they think they are. This message needs to be said over and over lest the race lose faith in itself entirely".

[Gumtree]

JoanK and Babi: I tend to agree with you on the tragic aspect of the Japanese theatre but most writers I've read agree with Muller's assessment that they are not tragedy in the sense we are speaking of here.
The Noh is regarded as essentially religious and often with military heroes depicting the salvation of the soul - which for any believer is far from being a tragic outcome.
The Kabuki concentrates in part on the exploits of historical warriors and there are some domestic dramas focussing on social matters -  but again our appreciation of these is subjective.

[Babi]

Good point, ROSHANA. It would be just like those meddling 'gods' to disguise
 themselves as bums to test their reception. I'm reminded of some of the 'old hag
into bountiful princess' fairy tales.

 I like Miller's description of tragedy, GUM. It seems to me that says it all.
Thanks for finding and posting that little gem. A
   From what little scraps I've seen of Noh,  their tragedies do seem to focus on a character
who lays down his/her life in adhering to a duty or integrity. That does fit Miller's definition of
tragedy, and perhaps Anderson's as well.

[JoanK]

Miller: The tragic feeling is evoked in us when we are in the presence of a character, who is ready to lay down his life, if need be, to secure one thing – his sense of personal integrity.”

I can see why the debate on whether "Death of a Salesman" is a tragedy. Willie Loman does commit suicide rather than accept the loss of what he sees as his personal integrity, but the tragedy lies in the fact that this definition of personal integrity is flawed. the tragedy is in the societal loss, not his personal loss.

[ginny]

Sally what a good point about the journeys west. I used to love Little House on the Prairie and the stories of the pioneers going West and having to leave their worldly goods along side the road  when the going got rough.


 Oh, my. Van Thuldens sailors have remarkable feminine backsides. I don't
think the Phaecian sailors would be at all pleased or amused. Mr. Flaxman's
version is much more appropriate.

hhaha  Babi, I am  sorry you don't like the illustrations and invite anybody to submit anything they can find on Eumaeus and Odysseus for 14. I look forward to seeing what you find, that stands for the entire discussion, too.

Babi and Joan K, I'm not familiar with the Noh tragic tradition I must bone up on it.

Oh JoanK, what an intresting point, but the tragedy lies in the fact that this definition of personal integrity is flawed. the tragedy is in the societal loss, not his personal loss.. Wow, would it have to BE his personal loss to qualify as a tragedy? This is quite interesting!!!

Gumtree, love that Maxwell Anderson quote and it sure suits O to a "T."

Thank you right back, Jude, I would never have chosen those books! What about Dreiser:  An American Tragedy, do people feel that is not a tragedy?  It's obvious that we're dealing with several definitions of tragedy here, and over a long time span. The Old Man and the Sea!

And what of....well I guess Ibsen is NOT American, and therefore he can't be counted. But Dreiser is, isn't he? Gosh no  Steinbeck?

What an interesting quote, Gum, on Miller's definition. I'm ashamed to say I never read Death of a Salesman but I saw it on Broadway.

Roshanna Rose, good point on the dilapidated disguise. Yes we talked about Heroes, you're right,  I guess I would like to say more. I am struck by the new ones coming  out, it's a pretty au courant topic, actually.

For instance the new issue of Newsweek Magazine (May 23 and 30: Double Issue),  has a full page on which Redux is best in terms of movies? (They chose Godfather II). The names of some of the nominees however sort of stood out, wonder why?

Spider Man 2
The Dark Knight
Iron Man 2
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2
Lord of the Rings: Return of the King
The Empire Strikes Back
Aliens
Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
Exorcist 2
Shreck 2


They left out the Pirates of the  Caribbean (why CAN'T I spell that word!)  with its Calypso and apparently in the newest version debuting tomorrow,  mermaids! ( Sirens!) ~

Left out, possibly not sequels but certainly featuring super heroes are  Thor, Governator, Hulk, the 4 people who turn into dirt and fire (I like them) and many many more.

Why now? I liked this point, Gum: Which of course, begs the question of whether we need such an example – what is the ‘higher existence’ and are we all seeking it? – is it our own personal ‘kleos’?

What a good question! Our 15 seconds of fame. Why? I sometimes thnk that's why authors write.

And it  interests me that there seems to be a real effort by the creators of these super heroes to humanize them. To take Superman and give him human sensibilities, why? Does it show that we too can be supermen under the right circumstances? I just think it's a fascinating topic and there's always something that lays him low. And here Ulysses is laid low over and over and enters his own kingdom as a beggar.  And this mkorning of course is running through my head the song "We don't need another hero..."

This is going to be interesting.

So tomorrow we embark on Book 14, Eumaeus the Loyal Swineherd.

Why does O conconct that LONG LONG story, LONG involved story for Eumaeus?

I can't figure out why Chapter or Book 14 is in the book. Any ideas?

[kidsal]

Would think the dogs' behavior would have made Eumaeus wonder about who O was.  O's story to Eumaeus about where from and who he is forshadows Eumaeus' story about his past.

[ginny]

OH what a good point about the foreshadowing thing, Sally, I didn't catch that!!

Why would the dogs barking at a stranger cause the swineherd to wonder if it were O?

Here we are at last, at home, we're in disguise but why can't O reveal who he is?

I just read that he DOES drop a hint, I didn't see it, do any of you?

And what's this about his wanting a blanket? What has that to do with O?

I can't understand why this little interlude is here? Why, in fact, this little chapter is here, it's such a switch!

Is it hospitality again? RoshanaRose made a point about the beggar disguise thing and how looking really  more like  a bum was likely to elicit hospitality.

I found this interesting question about that subject on the new Odyssey questions  page I cited back there a while:

5. The ancient Greeks truly believed in caring for strangers. Traditional voices in our culture have attempted to continue that tradition by advising all to care for strangers in need and teaching that such assistance is particularly pleasing to God. The media is quick to praise good Samaritans, and civic groups still award medals to humanitarians. But what forces in our time threaten to extinguish this tradition of kindness to and care for strangers? What can we do to care for strangers in need?

I totally forgot about the good Samaritan! I seem to recall that the turning aside to help this person was actually somewhat dangerous. Naturally we'd all think we'd be a good Samaritan but the truly horrific stories of what happens if you let IN a person cancel that out.  Perhaps in 2011 there is a difference in turning aside when a need is seen and in letting somebody into your home?

 I'm sure we could all have come up with at least one cautionary true tale we've heard. Is it that our world has changed SO much?

I remember no end of tales after the Great Depression and the Dust Bowl and bums and hobos who would come to the door, but now we have also great need, what has changed?


In this peaceful setting there's a LOT of hog butchering and it seems to take place in about as little bit of time as unwrapping a carton of bacon. In reality I understand (I have not participated nor am I ever going to in hog butchering) it's an awful, awful  thing and takes a long long LONG time, to do one much less the number here. Kill the fatted calf again.

But under this idyllic pastoral loyal scene of hospitality are  deception and lies,  for the purpose of revenge.

Why would O not tell Eumaeus who he is? Does O not trust Eumaeus? Eumaeus seems super loyal.  Is this a test?  Does Eumaeus pass? Why did O not go to his father, his own father who is pining for him, first?

IS this book actually a change of pace at all?

[Babi]

GINNY, I love the illustrations! It's just that some of them I find funny and have
to take a poke at them.

 ON humanizing superheroes. one of the charms Nevil Shute holds for me is that he took everyday sorts of people and let them accomplish extraordinary things. Now that did give me a sense of something us ordinary folk could aspire to.

[Dana]

I had the same questions about this chapter as you, ginny.
Why the long complicated lie?  I can see why he would want to test out Eumaius' loyalty but the involved story makes me think he just likes the joy of spinning a yarn--part of his devious nature?

And then, two pork meals in one day?  Two piglets for lunch and a boar for supper??  Surely not.......

And then the business with the cloak.  Why couldn't he just say I'm cold for heaven's sake?  Another example of his devious ways I guess....there was the whole issue about not accepting any gift for what might be a lying story about Odysseus, but surely the loan of a cloak or cover is just hospitality--like being given the swineherd's goatskin to lie on when he arrives.....

[Frybabe]

Why would the dogs barking at a stranger cause the swineherd to wonder if it were O?

Pure speculation of course, but maybe it was the way the dog barked at him, not to mention doggie posture when the recognize someone they know as opposed to a stranger invading their territory.

[Dana]

I don't get it about the dogs--this is 20 years on, the dogs could not have known him, I know his own dog has survived, but that's pretty unusual.  These dogs didn't know him at all, surely?

[JudeS]

I think Homer never had his own dog.
My last two dogs lastest 16 years each and I was told by two different vets how amazing that was.
Had a friend with a 20 year old cat but not a dog.
Would a puppy even remember a twenty year old scent? Hmm.....
I wondered what Homer was doing in this chapter.  From going over it carefully,I think what the purpose is, is to show how bad and greedy are the suitors.  Therefore they will deserve their punishment when it comes.
That is the true foreshadowing of Chapt. fourteen.

[JoanK]

Homer is EVERYWHERE! I was reading an article on  Mathematics ("Mathematics and Folkways" by Martin Gardner), and it talked about the discussion of homer's use of color that we had earlier. Gardner refutes (as we agreed) the idea that the ancient greeks were less able to discriminate color than we are, saying that just because they might have one word for colors that we have different names for doesn't mean that they are less able to distinguish them.

I've been revisiting the question. It may mean that they had less societal need to distinguish them. With our elaborate fashion industry, I am always seeing new names for shades and tints of color. I'll bet artists have many more color names than are commonly used. These differences are needed for communication. (Matching colors). The greeks (certainly blind Homer) might have had fewer dyes and paints, so no need to identify many colors.

But would that mean that some greeks would lose their ability to distinguish colors from lack of use? I've read that babies initially babble with all kinds of different sounds. the ones that aren't used in the language they learn drop out, and in some cases, the ability to distinguish different sounds is lost. When I taught ESOL, there were many exercises in the book to teach the student to recognize differing sounds (eg: many Asians can't hear the difference between "L." and "R". I founed the exercises did little good. The student either could or couldn't hear the difference. I had the same trouble in Israel: I COULD NOT hear the difference between the two "t's" in Hebrew. (tav and tet). Every time I used tet, I was corrected, but I couldn't hear the difference from what I had said.

Could the same be true of colors. Could our ability to distinguish some colors die out through lack of use?

[Frybabe]

Interesting question, JoanK. It's been a long time since I've read anything on perception and the senses. I vaguely learning that we could actually distinguish a rather low number of colors (forget what it was) but now studies are saying in the millions.

[bookad]

regarding the question of the dog's behaviour--and the thought of recognition or not of Odysseus---is this book using the same concept of time as we are using today, ...remembering in the old testament of the ages of people being in the hundreds of years, I believe...!!!

would Homer use time unrelated to the calender we use?

just thought I'd throw this thought in....

Deb

[PatH]

One thing strikes me as very odd about this chapter.  Although it's told in the same third person as the rest of the poem, in my translation (Lombardo) it also seems to be told by Odysseus.  In 5 places (lines 63, 183, 388, 476, 547 in Lombardo) we have the line:

"And you answered him, Eumaeus, my swineherd:"

What's that about?

[roshanarose]

JoanKHomer is EVERYWHERE! I was reading an article on  Mathematics ("Mathematics and Folkways" by Martin Gardner), and it talked about the discussion of homer's use of color that we had earlier.

Do you have a link for the above JoanK, or was it hard copy?

Joan I didn't realise that you had taught ESL/ESOL.  I did too for 22 years.  It was the best of jobs.  I think, just by saying "tav" and "tet" to myself that tav is unvoiced and that tet is voiced. All very well to make this point, but quite difficult to achieve in a second language I grant you.

The colours thing fascinates me too.  I look at the pix that I have of the frescoes at Knossos and Santorini and the colours are predominantly blue, brown (ochre) with some touches of red and white.  The Greeks used murex (shellfish?) for purple as later did the Romans.  By the time the Romans started to use murex, it was evidently becoming very scarce and expensive, thus only those of noble rank could wear it..

"Murex is a genus of medium to large sized predatory tropical sea snails. These are carnivorous marine gastropod molluscs in the family Muricidae, the murexes or rock snails. [1]

The common name "murex" is also used for a large number of species in the family Muricidae, most of which in the past were originally given the Latin generic name Murex, but most of which have now been grouped in other newer genera.

The word murex was used by Aristotle in reference to these kinds of snails, thus Murex is arguably one of the oldest classical shell names still in use by the scientific community"


I once put together a quiz on Greek colours (online quiz) asking for the (and if) the words for colours in Modern Greek were the same as in Ancient Greek.  It was fun to put together but only Greeks got it right  Anyone who likes a challenge, I will send it to you.  That's how I got interested in Greek colours in the first place.

[Babi]

  Me, too, DANA.  While I understand that O did not wish to reveal himself,  I
could not understand why he felt he must provide this elaborate lie to the man
who was being so kind and gracious to him. He would not be the first to make his way home after shipwreck and loss. He could have spoken of that without a lie.
  Part of it, I think, is that the tradition of hospitality to the stranger
includes the sharing of news...they had little other means of hearing it....and
entertaining one another with stories.   The swineherd had told Odysseus the
story of his master and the behavior of Penelope’s suitors. So O'  told him a
really good one in return....just not a true one.
  Actually, on reading further on, I find O' did tell partial truth. After establishing a
false background, he went on to tell some of the real story.
   Yes, indeed, the mandate of hospitality applies to bums as well.  O is welcomed by the swineherd and good food and wine is put before him.  The good swineherd does remark that the guest is a wanderer like his own master,..if he is living still.  That may be one reason,  But the overriding law is still,  “All wanderers and beggars come from Zeus.”  
  It just occurred to me, that’s not so far off from the Christian mandate,
“Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have entertained angels without knowing it.” (NIV, Heb. 13:2)

   In my version, the dogs were definitely not being friendly. The swineherd had
to chase them away yelling and throwing stones. Perhaps bringing up the subjecct of Odysseus immediately was the swineherd's way of establishing who he was and where the stranger had come to in his travels.

   
 

[ginny]

Oh man, I was all over those fierce dogs, I just knew there was a clue there! Of course, you're right,  these dogs of the swineherd would not have known O, super point, Dana, the dogs could not have known him. Good, now I can stop trying to find that one! hahaha

Of course we know O had a dog and it will soon recognize him, kind of a pitiful story there.

I did find what appears to be a credible source on:  Longevity, ageing, and life history of Canis familiaris, from: http://genomics.senescence.info/species/entry.php?species=Canis_familiaris,

and they state:

There is considerable variation in life history among the different dog breeds, including differences in longevity. In general, smaller breeds of dogs tend to live longer and may age slower [0423], though some have argued this might be due to artificial selection for high growth rates [0726]. Dogs are considered old after they are about 12 years old, though a few can live over 20 years [0434]. There are anecdotal reports of dogs living around 30 years, including one Australian cattle dog named "Bluey" living 29.5 years. These records are unverified and the maximum longevity of dogs is currently 24 years (J. Veronica Kiklevich, pers. comm.).

Who knew?!  So apparently dogs can live somewhat longer than we may have personally thought.

Good thought, Deb, on the length of years in ancient Greece, it appears that they had a civil year of 12 months with 29 and 30 days alternately, each month beginning on the new moon.  The year then contained only 354 days.  They named the months and these  appear very ancient.  Hesiod (@700 BC) mentions a lunar calendar used by sailors and farmers. (Oxford Companion to Classical Literature) so it appears that their years would not be that far off.

The colors/ retained language/ memory  thing is fascinating as well,  Roshanna Rose, Joan K, and  Frybabe, thank you all for this! On  the tet tev, if a person were to lose the ability to tell either a color or a sound, can that then be remedied?


And then the business with the cloak.  Why couldn't he just say I'm cold for heaven's sake?  Another example of his devious ways I guess....there was the whole issue about not accepting any gift for what might be a lying story about Odysseus, but surely the loan of a cloak or cover is just hospitality--like being given the swineherd's goatskin to lie on when he arrives.....

Doggone if I know, it may well be his devious ways, what's significant about a cloak and what does that website mean about his "hinting?" I'm going to have to reread book 14, I saw NO hints by O about who he might be.  Anywhere!  

[Mippy]

Good morning, all,
Sorry to have have been somewhat AWOL, but it's been a hectic few weeks.   I've been going back and forth from my daughter's house, near Boston, to help with my new granddaughter Erin, born on April 27th.   She's an adorable tiny girl, almost sleeping through the night.
She's our grandchild #6, but each and every child is a blessing!
                                                       
Back to our subject,
RoshannaRose ~ please do send or put up here your colors (colours?) of the Greeks, as I'm most interested.  I'm reading a terrific book that covers a similar subject, called The Last Speakers by K D Harrison (2010), about languages and cultures which have almost died out.
                                             
Haven't many of us heard or repeated the story that the Eskimos have dozens of words for snow or for the color white?   It's a myth, it's an example of bad science.  He refers to The Language Instinct by Steven Pinker, who found that Eskimos have no more words for snow than English does.   
That's why I'm curious about the Greek words; for example, wine-dark sea shows up in novels over and over.   What other words does Greek have for the color of the sea?  Would you like to post some examples?

I'm reading along and hope to find something to say about O  soon ...