Classics Book Club, The

[ginny]

 
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

Now reading:



May 20-----Book  XIV:  Eumaeus the Loyal Swineherd  

Odysseus and Eumaios
17th century etching
Theodor van Thulden (1606 - 1669)
Fine Arts Museums of San Francisco

 

Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny 

Useful Links:

1. Critical Analysis: Free SparkNotes background and analysis  on the Odyssey
2. Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:
3. Initial Points to Watch For: submitted by JudeS
4. Maps:
Map of the  Voyages of Odysseus
Map of Voyages in order
Map of Stops Numbered
Our Map Showing Place Names in the Odyssey

Odysseus conversing with Eumaios
Engraving and etching on paper
John Flaxman
1805
Tate Gallery

[ginny]

PatH, good catch: "And you answered him, Eumaeus, my swineherd:"

What's that about?

Again that one brought me up short, who is the speaker? And you cite it again in In 5 places (lines 63, 183, 388, 476, 547 in Lombardo)

I don't know, I just reread Fagles again, around 547, he doesn't say "my," and it doesn't appear that the third person narration has changed, quotation marks are used. What do the other translators say?

 I also don't see anything in what O says here, either hinting who he  is or the significance of the cloak (referring to the earlier questions: what hint?) He says I told O that I would freeze and he had a plan but it was Thoas who took off his cloak to go fight, what has that to do with anything?...

Who is the narrator of 14?  If we can't find the answer online maybe we could write Dr. Lombardo, tho I hate to because they  make a point in the intro and the translator's notes about the impossibility of direct handling of the ancient idiom (they put it a lot better).

Jude, this is a great point: I wondered what Homer was doing in this chapter.  From going over it carefully,I think what the purpose is, is to show how bad and greedy are the suitors.  Therefore they will deserve their punishment when it comes.
That is the true foreshadowing of Chapt. fourteen.

I think you are right, and as sub themes they mention Agamemnon again too for contrast and we also have the suitors eating way too much pork (!) and despoiling things and loyalty in the form of the most humble, who even can't go in the house or shack at night but must stand guard on his master's herds, (warmed O's heart).

Eumaeus is not looking for O, he presumes him dead, even when somebody purports to tell him, he says  no. I don't believe it. The present condition and appearance of O is not how Eumaeus expected him. Of course things in the palace are not as O expected either.

Now Athene has gone to get Telemachus so they can plot a revenge, that's interesting, why can't she just send for him? Mercury?

Babi: Actually, on reading further on, I find O' did tell partial truth. After establishing a
false background, he went on to tell some of the real story.  Do you see him hinting anywhere who O really IS? I just don't see it.

It's absolutely amazing as Joan K says how Homer is all around us. And I am loving the segues, because they often are the most memorable thing and they also help (I've just learned this last bit this morning) to cement the original idea in place.

I had one myself this morning, in reading a book called Understanding Roman Inscriptions (which is absolutely fabulous and nothing like it sounds, strongly recommended.) They had an illustration of the Arch of the  Sergii in Pula, which I had never heard of and in looking up the Stuart gouache (Gum, what is a gouache? I have read the description on two sites but it makes no sense?)_

I always kind of thought it was a Mapp and Lucia affectation, apparently not.

Anyway in finding some fabulous photos of said arch and the James  Stuart A View of the Arch of the Sergii at the V&A in London, but unable to find a print  of same,  (so bad because it shows the artist himself on TOP of the arch in his enthusiasm!),   I was stunned to see this pop up on the search the V&A shop pages: http://www.vandaprints.com/image/14446/ulysses-deriding-polyphemus-after-j-m-w-turner

Isn't that a beauty? So even when one's mind is eons away from the Odyssey, there it IS again! It's everywhere, it's everywhere!

Now do we agree O is biding his time? What's he doing here? He's waiting for  T to return so they can plan a revenge? (I hope these O's and T's don't bother you all, but my typing is absolutely awful and it's so much easier!)

Here's a bit on the concept of Revenge: http://www.sblair.com/odyssey/discussion.htm

6. Revenge as a means of obtaining justice was more acceptable in Homer’s society than in our modern society, which has a formidable criminal justice system. Even so, Homer’s idea of revenge bears qualification. Define the nature of revenge in the Odyssey that suggests under what conditions it is an acceptable means of justice.

Revenge is a....would we say non PC thing today? Outdated? Uninformed? Or does this idea only pertain to certain religions? Apparent not the ancient Greeks as Athene is helping? And certainly Poseidon and Zeus both have done their share. This appears to be another major theme now emerging in a sea of themes!

Careful careful planning.

I just thought of this one: does O actually learn anything from Eumaeus that he did not know? What,  if so? Off to see what I can find on the narrator of 14.

[ginny]

OK so far and I'm not through but there's enough out there to choke a horse, the narrator of book 14 appears  to be Homer himself:

I've found this:


* . . . you then answered him and said: Here the narrator makes an unexpected shift and addresses one of the characters in person ("you"), suggesting a certain closeness between the narrator and the character.  While this is not common in Homer, it does occur several times (e.g., with Menelaus in the Iliad).

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Texts/Odyssey/Odyssey14.html

And from: English 240: Ancient Literature

Study Questions on Homer's Odyssey

http://www.ajdrake.com/e240_fall_03/materials/authors/homer_sq.htm

2. How would you characterize the narrator, the fictive "Homer" whose voice we imagine as singing the verses of the Odyssey?



So the only books  O is supposedly narrating are 9-12, and the "you" and "my" are apparently the voice of the creator, Homer.

The "my" appears to be a Lombardo addition which I quite like now, as it clearly shows the possession of the author or creator narrator.

I must say that is what I thought originally,  does that fit with what you all thought or not? It IS startling.  It starts and ends in the 3rd person. Still looking.

That last bunch of questions are good, too!

I do like this one:

Book 14

44. What is the function of Eumaeus the swineherd? How does he treat Odysseus, and how does Odysseus treat him? How much of the truth does Odysseus tell him?

[ginny]

Mippy! THERE you are, I was just wondering  where you were, and bingo! Welcome back!

Tell us about this book, The Last Speakers by K D Harrison (2010), about languages and cultures which have almost died out, I don't know it!

[Dana]

The notes to the translation I have say that the narrator addressing the swineherd (fifteen times apparently in books 14 thru 17) is "one of the most curious features of The Odyssey".  Apparently in The Iliad this convention of addressing a character is used with 5 characters from 8 to 1 times each.  It says that it may be that the convention of doing this may have become outdated by the time The Odyssey was completed and may have survived in the one case of the swineherd. "It may be a vestige of a primitive ballad singer's phrase".  The protocol of ballads to this day, he says, requires the narrator to apostrophise one or more figures.

[ginny]

Wowza! Is that Fitzgerald? It's wonderful! Thank you!

[Dana]

He goes on to say, "Stanford" (whoever he is) "rightly rejects the idea that this apostrophe is a mark of the poet's special affection for Eumaeus." And it is "highly uncharacteristic of Homer's very impersonal style."

[Dana]

Yes, this is notes to Fitzgerald by Ralph Hexter.

[ginny]

ooo, thank you,  I was just about to ask you which apostrophe he was referencing as I don't have one when I looked HIM up and I see his

 Guide to The Odyssey
by Ralph Hexter


This book is available on your iPhone, iPad, or iPod touch with iBooks.


Description

For those of us who know and love the incomparable Odyssey of Homer (and there are many), Dr. Hexter has created a valuable, detailed analysis, taking into account many of Homer's most fascinating subtleties.

Available  for the I phone!!!  Now who can resist that one? Off to see what this valuable, detailed analysis says! Thank you!

[ginny]

OK I see it now! Apostrophes, who knew?!

O my swineherd!

The "my" is definitely there! Dana's quotation  is correct. He says the Odyssey only uses it with the one character but the Iliad uses it in connection with 5: Patroklos: 8 times, Menelaos 7 times, Phoibos, two times; Melanippos and  and Akhilleus (1 each, data from Stanford 2.218 on XIV 55) so there's Stanford,  then he says "the relative frequency of these apostrophes...") and what Dana quoted.

And the definition is: Apostrophes:  An exclamatory passage in a speech or poem addressed to a person (typically one who is dead or absent) or thing (typically one that is personified).

Who knew?

And then he concludes "A translator of The Odyssey into English might well be justified in removing this last vestige of the convention."

And obviously some of them have. Isn't that interesting? I don't really remember any of them in the Iliad, do any of you? But something about the Patroclus mention rings a long dead bell which may have to ring hahaha


 Dr. Hexter is quite an interesting man with an impressive vita. I like the way he writes.

I've learned something new today. Thank you Dana!

[JoanK]

ROSE: The article I read was in hard copy, in a collection of Martin gardner's essays called "The Night is Large".

I taught ESOL as a volunteer for a few years after I retired. There is an organization in the States called the Literacy Council that teaches both ESOL and literacy for adults who have managed to go through the school system without learning to read. They use volunteer teachers. Only limited instruction is given, but the materials are quite structured and easy to follow. The teaching is one-on-one -- I had the same student for two years, and at the end of that time she was able to reach her goal, which was to get a job where  she had to talk, read, and write only in English.

I found the experience quite rewarding -- if any of you aare looking for volunteer work, I recommend it.

[JoanK]

I, too, was puzzled by the shift in voice, as if suddenly O was talking. I found it touching, but surprising.

I loved the detail of the swineherd working on his shoes. Irrelevant to anything, but it made him seem very real, somehow.

Were you-all surprised that he was a slave? I THINK this is the first mention of the fact that many of the people who served our heroes were slaves.

[roshanarose]

JoanK - It is generally believed that the Greek philosophers and others of their ilk could never have achieved the fame they did without slave labour.  After the Romans occupied Greece they took the smartest Greeks back as tutors for their children. 

Mippy - I would love to post some questions about Greek colours here, but it is only polite to ask permission from Ginny.  A refusal will not offend and I can send the questions by email to Mippy (or anyone else) who is interested.

Lost Languages - a fascinating though sad topic.  Tocharian is the one that interests me.  Actually Ancient Greek is not "dead" as such as it continues in Modern Greek. 

btw the word colour is how we spell it here and also in the UK.  Also flavour, favourite etc.  Originally these spellings came into English with French kings, queens and courtiers and later the Normans.   There are lots more.  Also we double our consonants e.g. traveller, leveller, etc. One way of spelling is not "superior" to the other.  It is all about usage.

[kidsal]

When I spoke of foreshadowing I was refering to the fact that when O describes his background he is actually telling the story of Eumaeus being the son of a king who was stolen by a maid and brought to Ithaca and sold.

[Gumtree]

Oh my! a discussion on Homer's Odyssey leads to talk about Bluey, the legendary 29-1/2 year old Australian Cattle Dog - it just shows how all pervading this story is.

 I should say that half the Aust. Cattle Dogs are called Bluey - mainly because their coats are bluish in colour but just as often they are called Bluey if their coats are reddish. They are a great working dog and were bred from tamed dingoes crossed with the Northumberland Drovers' Dog and are a recognised Breed.
They are generally called Blue Heelers or Red Heelers and on average live for about 14 to 16 years - no wonder that the long lived Bluey is so legendary.

Gum, what is a gouache? I have read the description on two sites but it makes no sense?)_

Ginny: Fundamentally Gouache is simply a heavy, opaque water colour paint. It's usually used on watercolour paper and sometimes on mountboard - they are generally  brilliant in colour. Because Gouache is opaque it is often shunned by watercolour purists who prefer the effects of transparent washes. Though gouache can be reworked the medium can be difficult for beginners to use - if the washes are too thin the result can be powdery and if too thick the paint may crack on top as the gum arabic binder is absorbed by the underpainting. I've never used water based paints much but if I did get serious about them I would be tempted to use gouache as I far prefer the results it gives over transparent watercolours and the acrylic based paints.

[Mippy]

Off topic:
Roshanarose ~  Thanks for your comment.   Perhaps you could post just one or two examples here, if you have time.
   
Ginny ~  re: your question about the book by the linguist
Dr. K D Harrison:  The Last Speakers (2010, National Geographic Society):   He studies in the field  some of the remote tribes in Asia and in South America, whose languages and cultures are about to die out, as the children only speak the broader language, such as Russian in the first example.   I've just read the first 85 pages or so, and hesitate to suggest this book yet, as it is a bit uneven.  
This has very little to do with our topic, here, except the naming of colors having some interest.  

[ginny]

RoshannaRose, oh yes, by all means, bring the colors ON~!~ Thank you!

Thank you Mippy, that sounds an interesting book, wasn't there something quite recently on that same subject, a tribe somewhere whose language died out as a result of being discovered by  modern civilization? I'm foggy on it but it sounded like a modern morality tale.

Thank you, Gum, for gouache. (Pronounced goo ahsh? I hope?) I must now go see one in person so I can compare it to the water color, so many things have been labeled gouache that I admit to sort of saying oh that's nice and skimming right over.

Art is such a subjective field, or so I think. There was recently a big hoo hah somewhere on an artist I never heard of who was supposedly superior to Vermeer and they had some of his works. You can't tell anything in a magazine, perhaps? I know when I stood in the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam and looked at that Vermeer with the woman and the pitcher I swear it glowed, it was the most incredible moment.

Sally, When I spoke of foreshadowing I was referring to the fact that when O describes his background he is actually telling the story of Eumaeus being the son of a king who was stolen by a maid and brought to Ithaca and sold.

Wow. And this Hexter book says neither of them, Eumaeus or O is what they seem to be? I need to go back and  see if I can find out why, in the case of Eumaeus? Does anybody know? Such a good pointing out of parallels!

This is the type of thing I personally just LOVE. You all are so much more intuitive as readers and catch things I totally miss. Then we've got these commentators, like Hexter,  who pick up on things I would never have seen. I totally admire ANYBODY in ANY field who has shown such passion and devotion that they took the time to KNOW things that none of the rest of us do and then to share it, because it adds so much to our understanding.  To me that's the truest education you can have, to enlarge your own parameters by this exposure,  and what a joy it is to have such wonderful careful readers here with such experience in so many fields (am still telling everybody I  know about knots hahhaa...and was quite disappointed my husband already knew about the log thing!) hahahaa so we can get so much more out of it together than apart.

I missed, for instance, Sally's parallel there entirely on my own. It has something to do with the way I read I guess.. Super point.

Gum, I just read that often in inscriptions the Romans would paint the carved letters with cinnabar!  It was called "minium" and can survive in crevices of the lettering! I well remember our discussion on cinnabar a while back. Understanding Roman Inscriptions says "According to the Elder Pliny, ' minium is used in  books and it makes lettering more visible, both i walls and on marble, and on tomb monuments as well.'" It also says that "sculptured details on the stone were also sometimes painted, an a variety of colours. Today we are accustomed to seeing inscribed stones looking rather plain and grey."

So there's color again too.


Joan K, I didn't even catch that Eumaeus WAS a slave! So O, in establishing his rightful kingdom here is himself as a beggar and with the help of a slave and a boy to take on the mighty suitors.

One thing I missed is that O called Eumaeus, "Eumaeus," thus in danger of giving himself away, reminds you of an old Andy Griffith show where a stranger to town knew everybody's name, but apparently this was not a slip but O could have heard others refer to him. A close call apparently, tho.

Apparently in the great "tale of the cloak," O accomplishes (according to Hexter) what his previous hints have not, that ODYSSEUS needs a cloak! Homer's audience would then enjoy the secret that O himself IS here. Sort of letting the audience in on the joke while E remains blissfully ignorant. This irony continues throughout the book.

Sort of like screaming at the screen on a TV soap, no no, don't let him GO!

Kind of a neat subtle touch by Homer.

Also a play on words with Thoas who runs off, his name means, the root of his name is thoos "swift,"  from theo "to run." (Greek infinitive theein).

Apparently also if you know ancient  Greek Homer does a lot of puns here, especially in around 144-152 with the word "roamed,"  aletheh and rover alalemenos, and then to  andres aletai, and "then produces the root of his pun: 'truth" 152; alethea. So when this is written  all out in Greek, it's quite a sight, all those words,  and Hexter says, "Homer's wordplay reveals a truth over Eumaios' head: Odysseus is hidden within this wanderer, as 'truth' is in the word 'wanderer.'" And Eumaeus, unwittingly, picks it up further.

So Homer here to his audiences who did understand ancient Greek is really hammering on the audience's delight and tension to hear O's name!

I'm getting kind of excited, too, to find out what happens and how. Want to go on to 15 or do we want to remain here for a bit?

You to say!

[Babi]

van Thulden's  etching is beautiful. The background appears to be an image from the story Odysseus is telling.

   In all fairness, after telling the lies about who he was and where he came from, Odysseus told his story truthfully, I believe, from his viewpoint.  He was surely describing himself when he said,
              “My strength’s all gone, but from the husk you may divine the ear  that stood tall in the old days.  Misery owns me now, but  then great Ares and Athena  gave me valor and man-breaking power, whenever I made choice of men-at-arms to set a trap with me for my enemies.  Never, as I am a man, did I fear Death ahead, but went in foremost in the charges....”
   

[Gumtree]

Mippy's reference to The Last Speakers made me think of the Australia tribal languages which have already been lost and others which are in danger -

 In 1788, there were about 250 separate Aboriginal languages spoken in Australia, plus dialects. Today, only two thirds of these languages survive and only 20 of them (eight per cent of the original 250) are still strong enough to have chance of surviving well into the next century.

 remedial steps are being taken to preserve what is left but unfortunately as the younger indigenous  generations become more mainstream they tend to lose their tribal languages.

Ginny:  Vermeer and the 'glowing' -  well, it is Vermeer you know.
As for the minium - I think Romans used the term for all red paints including cinnabar/vermilion and mixes - minium is actually 'red lead' highly toxic. It was used by the ancients and later on the illuminated manuscripts - and as you well know from minium we get miniature et al.

Gouache is pronounced 'gwash' - g as in gun - wash as in squash. It was used as the medium in much of the Indian and Islamic art miniatures but actually its use dates from ancient Greece ... so there we are back into Homer's territory.

 

[Dana]

Minim is what the Roman generals celebrating a triumph used to paint on their faces, isn't it, and it was red....

[roshanarose]

Dana - a nice lead in for my first Greek Colour question.  Of course, anyone may answer.  Thanks Ginny and Mippy.

The Modern Greek word and the Ancient Greek word for red/scarlet are the same.
What is the word out of these six?

rubiros
rufus
rouge
russo
kokkino

This question is really "a process of elimination question".

[Gumtree]

Dana:  I believe so, though not all generals painted their faces   - they painted the faces of the Gods with it as well - It would be interesting to know whether those  who did paint themselves suffered afterwards from the effects of lead poisoning as minium is rapidly absorbed through the skin and if ingested has severe effects upon the liver.

[ginny]

Red red red!!! We're seeing red this morning. hahaha

Greek for red?

RR, with my luck the red answer would be the only one not spelled like the others: kokkino

I wonder if that's where they got Kokomo  Looks like coquina, a strange little sea shell creature found on the East coast. What's the answer? I really have no idea.


 I'd really love an authoritative source for the generals face painting thing, Dana. I keep hearing this but I am short of a reference to read more on it, do you have one?

Gum, It appears they called  any vermillion minium:

  Cassell's says minium is an Iberian word and means (1)  native cinnabar.

and (2) a red lead (Vergil, Suetonius).

So there are apparently two applications, including calling everything red minium.

Lewis and Short says:

minium, apoc form of min. Vergil, Quintilian. Spanish; native cinnabar.

II. Red lead, minium: Pliny, Vergil, Suetonius,  Vitruvius.

minius, a, um: of cinnabar or minium, cinnabar-red, vermilion (Appuleian).

So some of the usages must have been generic.

I also did  some reading up on  it, and you are right and it  appears Agatha Christie missed  a great poison to use, it appears to be as toxic as you get, due to the mercury?? (is that right?)  in it? I am no chemist. It must be special raw properties or something.

 Am I the only one who remembers playing with the mercury in a thermometer? I wonder why I'm not dead. Must be a different form, but even then they talked about how dangerous it was. And what was it that people would lick the brushes for fine work, was it during WWII? Painting something small? Watches? And then were poisoned?

Was it the same thing?



At any rate at Pompeii today the audio tapes talk about rare cinnabar, so they must have figured out how to use the real  cinnabar in some way, even tho apparently it blackens upon exposure to air.  Or  maybe they are wrong!

But back to the subject at hand: Babi, I agree on Van Tulden and also that some of his stuff is strange. How clever of you to notice the background depicted, it must BE the story O has woven, I never even saw it. These engravings all appear to be from a book, and the text follows below, if one can translate it, one knows what the picture depicts. Wouldn't it be a hoot to try to read it?

I would kill to have a facsimile of this book and if I'm ever in San Francisco again I'd love to see it. Let me see if I can blow up an image here and we can try to make the writing under the etchings  out: I think it's in French but am not sure: it's really hard to see.  I actually in looking at that one can't figure out which person is O and which one is Eumaeus. I take it in the picture of the story being depicted as background   that the giant personage is Athene?

Let's see now that you've opened this Pandora's box if we can figure out  what it is!

hahah  Gum, well golly and GWASH! hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Will not forget THAT one soon. Thank you!

Babi!! Good one on answering the question about when does O tell the truth: you appear to have NAILED it!

My strength’s all gone, but from the husk you may divine the ear  that stood tall in the old days.  Misery owns me now, but  then great Ares and Athena  gave me valor and man-breaking power, whenever I made choice of men-at-arms to set a trap with me for my enemies.  Never, as I am a man, did I fear Death ahead, but went in foremost in the charges....”

Good one!

So this little chapter is so deceptive, itself, isn't it?  Seems on the outside to be so simple but layered over with word play and levels of story telling and meaning, it's pretty darn amazing!

What else have you all noticed here or would like to comment on? Or shall we move on to 15 if you are ready?

Let's move on, for Wednesday, 15?  I am absolutely stunned in reading back over what we've done with 14 what we've covered!!!

[ginny]

Drat. No it isn't telling us at all what the scene behind is, it, instead, is apparently talking about O and his swineherd Eumaeus and pointing out a famous maxim which I never heard of, something wbout he who is Great? Or would be great and something about the loyalty of his domestiques hahahaa Pas devant les domestiques.  But I'm not sure I can make out the words, can any of you?

[ginny]

Oh for heaven's sake! I will shut up about this, but it's fascinating. Look:



Book Description

Paris: Melchior Tavernier, 1634

. First Edition in Latin (first published with French text the previous year). This series of etchings by Flemish painter and engraver, Theodor Van Thulden, a former pupil and assistant of Rubens, documents the large fresco scenes from the Odyssey which Francesco Primaticcio and Niccolò dell'Abbate executed between 1541 and 1547 in the Château de Fontainebleau. The murals were destroyed in 1739, when some structural alterations were made in the palace. oblong folio. [ff. 5]. 58 etched plates. woodcut title vignette & 2 woodcut initials. modern wrs. (title creased, stained & backed & with 2 small inconsequential holes, text leaves browned & soiled - 2 with dampstain in upper margin, upper outer corner of dedication leaf renewed, last plate trimmed & mounted, scattered light spotting & marginal soiling, outer edge of plate 24 trimmed to just inside plate mark)

Title:


Errores Ulyssis, Adumbrati A S. Martino, ut in Regio Fontis-bellaquae spectantur. A Nicolao Depicti; et in aes incisi a Theodoro Van-Tulden, Una cum argumento, & interpretatione morali cuiuslibet Fabulae

by THULDEN, Theodor Van [1606-1669]
Price: $1,665.00
$8.00 standard shipping to USA

My goodness. So the first version was in French, this ad is for the Latin version.  The originals were in Château de Fontainebleau, as frescoes, he did this on his own, copying them,  as etchings. The originals were destroyed (!), this is all that's left, and you, too, can own the Latin version of the Wanderings (not Errors hahha) of Ulysses  for only $1,665.00.

[Dana]

The one quote for the minium painting of Roman generals' faces at their triumphs is from Pliny the elder, Natural History, 36.7, quoting one Verrius Flaccus

I don't believe painting their faces for a couple of hours would have harmed them.  Its inhaling the vapour from the mercury for hours, day after day that did it--hatters--(remember the mad hatter).

[ginny]

Thank you for that reference. I finally, after reading about no end of doves and old birds, some 30 and 40 years old, which I thought that fit in here nicely hahahaa (volume X, books 36, 37)but finally I    found this:

XXXVI. Minium or cinnabar also is found in silver mines; it is of great importance among pig­ments at the present day, and also in old times it not only had the highest importance but even sacred associations among the Romans. Verrius gives a list of writers of unquestionable authority who say that on holidays it was the custom for the face of the statue of Jupiter himself to be coloured with cinnabar. as well as the bodies of persons going in a triumphal procession, and that Camillus was so coloured in his triumph, and that under the same ritual it was usual even in their day for cinnabar to be added to the unguents used at a banquet in honour of a triumph, and that one of the first duties of the Censors was to place a contract for painting Jupiter with cinnabar. For my own part I am quite at a loss to explain the origin of this custom, although at the present day the pigment in question is known to be in demand among the nations of Ethiopia whose chiefs colour themselves all over with it, and with whom the statues of the gods are of that colour. On that account we will investigate all the facts concerning it more carefully.


This is interesting. Of course, a  lot of the 4th c BC legends attributed to  of Camillus are apocryphal. And, again,  not all of Pliny's observations or conclusions in his Natural History are correct, either: to quote: "In spite of many errors and much carelessness, credulity, superficiality, unscientific arrangement and the tedium of dry catalogues, the work is remarkable  for the vast labour and the boundless curiosity of the author that it represents;  it contains  much that is interesting and entertaining, and much unique information about the art, science, and civilization of the author's day." (OCCL)

 I've read that his chapter on amber,  and the history of painting and sculpture in books 35 and 36 are  especially interesting. Unfortunately, like many of his day, he had no use for the Greeks.

You know what? We may want to put him on our possible list of reads for the future because I am reading about some of the fantastic things he talks about and it would make exciting reading and discussion? (Some of it is X rated but we can skip that.)  A literary Cabinet of Curiosities, in truth.  I love the directions this discussion is taking us!

In  Edit II: Apparently the movie Rome for HBO had a red painted triumphator? I haven't seen it but it's spawned a lot of websites with that information.  Mary Beard's book The Roman Triumph apparently  ...well I'm not sure what they conclude here.... but the issue is apparently talked about somehow in comparison to Mantegna's Triumph of Caesar. Man what a coincidence:  I just saw that last year. You need good eyes to see those paintings, I don't recall any red face but (Edit III) having just read Mary Beard's book section on it (which I wish I had had when I saw the paintings ) she says that "what we now see and admire is in almost no part the original fifteenth-century brushstrokes  of Mangegna. Instead, it is the historical product of centuries of painting and painting."  Here's the article: http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/the-roman-triumph-by-mary-beard-765125.html

I love these seques, it's hard to get back to the topic hahaha. I just read 15, it's a stunner, do we want to go ahead for Wednesday?

[ginny]

Duh. I thought to myself, the cover on that Mary Beard's The Roman Triumph on Amazon looks familiar. It should, it's staring me in the face on the shelf here. I'll let you know what she says for better or worse.

[Dana]

oh yes I saw that quoted when I was looking for the reference, wondered if it would be worth reading?  (It was amazing--a big chuck of what she said about painting came right up in front of me ! I can't really get over this ease of tracking stuff down.......)

[sandyrose]

Like Mippy I have been AWOL--lots going on here including a trip with my outdoor women's group.  Nine of us headed to far northern Wisconsin and spent four days hiking to waterfalls.  Fantastic trip.  Took Odyssey with me and was surprised most had not read it. 

So interesting reading all the posts to catch up.  Now on to catch up reading 14 and 15.  I will be lurking.

[JoanK]

I'm ready to move on, if you all are.

What a shame we can't get the sense of Homer's wordplay. Of course that is one thing that is almost impossible to translate.

[JudeS]

Eumaeus story is told in the next chapter which I thought we were reading for today. It's quite a story! In Fagles version lines 461 -540.

Meanwhile I had seconfd thoughts on many things ,especially on the age of the dog.  I realized that this book is partially Science -Fiction or Historic Fiction. If we can have a Cyclops why shouldn't we have a 20 (or 30) year old dog with superior powers?

I thiink that sometimes I get confused trying to sort out fact from fiction.  Have decided that is a waste of time.  Just sit bck and go with the flow.

[roshanarose]

I think my question got lost.  Posted for Mippy - where is she?

Ginny - Yes.  You are right - good going    Kokkino it is.  I kind of thought it was related to cochineal a type of beetle whose wings are crushed to make red dye.  Evidently the word derived from a kermesberry, used to dye cloth scarlet.  I think the Latin is ruber.

A quick search has revealed that I was right about the insect.  This is such a rare event, ie that I am right,  I thought I would show you what I read:

seeds, of a brown or purple color, a"Coccus cacti
Cochineal Coch"i*neal (k[o^]ch"[i^]*n[=e]l; 277), [Sp. cochinilla, dim. from L. coccineus, coccinus, scarlet, fr. coccum the kermes berry, G. ko`kkos berry, especially the kermes insect, used to dye scarlet, as the cochineal was formerly supposed to be the grain or seed of a plant, and this word was formerly defined to be the grain of the {Quercus coccifera}; but cf. also Sp. cochinilla wood louse, dim. of cochina sow, akin to F. cochon pig.] A dyestuff consisting of the dried bodies of females of the {Coccus cacti}, an insect native in Mexico, Central America, etc., and found on several species of cactus, esp. {Opuntia cochinellifera}. [1913 Webster]

Note: These insects are gathered from the plant, killed by the application of heat, and exposed to the sun to dry. When dried they resemble small, rough berries or nd form the cochineal of the shops, which is used for making carmine, and also as a red dye. [1913 Webster]

[kidsal]

Licking brushes for fine work -- as I remember it was for watches with hands that glowed in the dark  - probably military watches.

[Mippy]

Roshanarose ~  Not lost, but I'm staying at my daughter's house, helping with her new baby, and cannot get to a computer as often as when I'm home.
Ginny had guessed the color quiz by the time I'd seen it.  Thanks.  

[ginny]

Sandy!! I wondered where you were!


Nine of us headed to far northern Wisconsin and spent four days hiking to waterfalls.  Fantastic trip.  Took Odyssey with me and was surprised most had not read it.

My goodness you get the prize!! Taking the Odyssey along on your own Odyssey! I've never BEEN to northern Wisconsin, was it just gorgeous? What a trip! I won't ask if you recited parts of it over a campfire, but it's such a thought! Invite them IN here and they can enjoy it with us! Do not lurk, say what you're thinking so we can all benefit.


Mippy, 6 grandchildren and aren't you lucky to get to help!! Nothing like a new baby in the world.  Mippy  and RoshanaRose:  a nice lead in for my first Greek Colour question.  Of course, anyone may answer.

Whoops, sorry, hahaha,  Let's have another,  that was quite interesting,  and we can leave that one for Mippy.

 Interesting on the Cochinea tie in, thank you so much.

Sally I think you're right, what was the substance, do you recall?

Jude, I like the old dog thing, but I also like your approach to the book as we've gone along, too. and oh good Joan K and Jude, so you're ready to move on, these are quite the chapters and they look so simple.

Dana, yes, it's really  excellent.  I like it even better than her Pompeii book,  but she seems to be taking the 5th on the red face  while at the same time lumping it in with things we conventionally  think which are not so. She says of those: I'll address only two. Shame.  I really like her approach to things, she does address the problems but she  doesn't jump,  as so many do,  on the bandwagon of  conclusions but wants to examine things based on the evidence, such as we have.  It's a GOOD book, all 300 plus  pages of it.  I'll wait a bit before telling her thoughts on Pliny and another of his statements.

Nobody lurk, it's just getting good! Jump right in with any thoughts so far and we can tackle 15 tomorrow.

Speaking of grandbabies, I only have one and am sooo lucky to get to keep him some during the week. Today's one of our days and it's 7:00 and am already late for pick up,  so will see you all later. I love coming in to read what struck each person as they read. I don't think we're missing much. Is there anything which puzzles you so far that we haven't talked about? Together I'm sure we can solve it!

[kidsal]

In 1902, inventor William J. Hammer left Paris with a curious souvenir. The famous scientists Pierre and Marie Curie had provided him with some samples of their radium salt crystals. Radioactivity was somewhat new to science, so its properties and dangers were not well understood; but the radium’s slight blue-green glow and natural warmth indicated that it was clearly a fascinating material. Hammer went on to combine his radium salt with glue and a compound called zinc sulfide which glowed in the presence of radiation. The result was glow-in-the-dark paint.
 
Hammer’s recipe was used by the US Radium Corporation during the First World War to produce Undark, a high-tech paint which allowed America’s infantrymen to read their wristwatches and instrument panels at night. They also marketed the pigment for non-military products such as house numbers, pistol sights, light switch plates, and glowing eyes for toy dolls. By this time the dangers of radium were better understood, but US Radium assured the public that their paint used the radioactive element in “such minute quantities that it is absolutely harmless.” While this was true of the products themselves, the amount of radium present in the dial-painting factory was much more dangerous, unbeknownst to the workers there.
US Radium employed hundreds of women at their factory in Orange, New Jersey. Few companies at that time were willing to employ women, and the pay was much higher than most alternatives, so the company had little trouble finding employees to occupy the rows and rows of desks. They were required to paint delicate lines with fine-tipped brushes, applying the Undark to the tiny numbers and indicator hands of wristwatches. After a few strokes a brush tended to lose its shape, so the women’s managers encouraged them to use their lips and tongues to keep the tips of the camel hair brushes sharp and clean. The glowing paint was completely flavorless, and the supervisors assured them that rosy cheeks would be the only physical side effect to swallowing the radium-laced pigment. Cause for concern was further reduced by the fact that radium was being marketed as a medical elixir for treating all manner of ailments.

A US Radium dial painting factoryThe owners and scientists at US Radium, familiar with the real hazards of radioactivity, naturally took extensive precautions to protect themselves. They knew that Undark’s key ingredient was approximately one million times more active than uranium, so company chemists often used lead screens, masks, and tongs when working with the paint. US Radium had even distributed literature to the medical community describing the “injurious effects” of radium. But inside the factory, where nearly every surface sparkled with radioluminescence, these dangers were unknown. For a lark, some of the women even painted their fingernails and teeth with radium paint on occasion, to surprise their boyfriends when the lights went out

[Babi]

"you, too, can own the Latin version of the Wanderings (not Errors hahha) of Ulysses for only $1,665.00."

Is that all?  What a bargain! 

  I've already made a couple of posts referring to Book 15, JUDE,  as it seemed
we were through with Book 14.  Still lots of other subjects under discussion, tho', so I guess I 'jumped the gun'.

[JoanK]

BABI: that's ok, we're all jumping in after you.

The story of the watchworkers makes me sick to my stomach! KIDSAL, could you let us know what you are quoting? Do they say what happened to the women?

[Frybabe]

This all reminds me of Karen Silkwood, who tried to blow the whistle on Kerr-McGee for safety violations at one of their plants (plutonium, I think).