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[ginny]

  
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June 8-----Book  XVII:  Odysseus is in the House!    

Odysseus returns home

The suitors throw Odysseus scraps
17th century etching
Theodor van Thulden (1606 - 1669)
Fine Arts Museums of San Francisco

  

Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny  

Useful Links:

1. Critical Analysis: Free SparkNotes background and analysis  on the Odyssey
2. Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:
3. Initial Points to Watch For: submitted by JudeS
4. Maps:
Map of the  Voyages of Odysseus
Map of Voyages in order
Map of Stops Numbered
Our Map Showing Place Names in the Odyssey

Odysseus and Argos
Engraving and etching on paper
John Flaxman
1805
Tate Gallery

Argos recognises Odysseus
17th century etching
Theodor van Thulden (1606 - 1669)
Fine Arts Museums of San Francisco

[ginny]

Oh such wonderful posts here, on the Laertes thing, Babi, and Dana,  and us not seeing our own water we're swimming in, Joan K, and our way not the only way (RoshanaRose) and emotions amongst the  Greeks, fabulous stuff. Like Deb I'm so enjoying reading them. Is it just me or are there suddenly so MANY things that are out there I don't personally know?

This is a super way to  find out about them. I just read that entire article, with its 1957 ads and prices about the Tudors, it's absolutely wonderful, I love it.

I don't know if you do this but Mippy sort of nailed it here: The emotion they display seems quite sincere!  I really like this chapter, after what seems like months and months of waiting for O. to get home again.

I woke up this morning thinking about this chapter and wondering why I liked it also. I realized that for once O is actually DOING something. We've not seen him in action much, now we do. He's planning, he's taking charge, he's making detailed [plans for revenge. I am not sure that we'd qualify this as revenge or taking back what's his or both?

But at any rate, he's got quite the plan here, the wily O, and I'm trying to think when else we've seen this: the Cyclops, and....possibly in the....Trojan Horse, right? Attributed to him, but otherwise he's been pretty passive and so has the story. NOW he's ready finally and so are we!

Has he been a take charge guy otherwise? The wax in his ears and the tying to the mast  for the Sirens was not his idea. The cattle of Helios, they didn't listen, right?  When have we seen him take control, plan, and execute other than what I've mentioned here?

We are READY to see our hero in action and he's not flying in (he's not got enough numbers) so he has to plan it carefully.

I GUESS the weapons from the "black ship" which had gone out to ambush, would have been brought ashore and put in the hall, so they, too, would be spirited away for the big confrontation.

Now Joan K had proposed every 5 days we  move on. Are we ready then to do 17 for tomorrow or is it too soon or is there something we've not covered?

I can see the listeners around the fire hunching closer, leaning in to hear: we're getting finally to the good stuff now!

Our hero is home, but has not completed his final task.

[PatH]

It's disappointing to learn that even at Hampton Court it'll take me over half a year to get enough boar tusks for my helmet.

I'm ready to move on.  We can always fill in anything we've missed.

[roshanarose]

U r cute PatH.

[ginny]

Ok super! Then let's move forward tomorrow with 17, giving everybody a day to read it, if necessary.

In 17 things really heat up and we can see why T's new friend is there! Or can we?

O goes to his own palace at last and Penelope sends for O to find out any news of O! This will be their first meeting in 20 years!  It should be very exciting!

How simple this little tale seems, almost a caricature of a fairy story, there's no great introspection  in our hero, it's just a comic book or so it seems.  Quite different from the Iliad.   Yet underneath all the activity on the surface, all I see is teeming symbolism, and pretty big themes, actually. I am seeing here in the elaborate plans to "test" the loyalty of what appears to be everybody on earth, issues of faith, loyalty, trust, and revenge.  He's home but his home is usurped and that impacts his own quest for "homecoming," and reunion. I wonder if the savagery of his response when it comes is related TO these thwarted desires. Would almost be too much for some, in any age. How to handle these feelings of....well, what would be YOUR feelings if you arrived home at last to find your house full of riotous...let's see, most of us are women, riotous playboy bunnies? Or Real Housewives of Orange County? And your erstwhile husband not being able to choose?


But here for one more day in 16, while we're reading on, are some questions from Creighton U on 16 which I find quite interesting.  What, offhand, do you all think about these? Particularly the "justified" part and the last question?


What do you think about the fact that Odysseus reveals his identity to his son? What of their plot to kill the suitors? Is it justified? Does it accord well with the principles of justice set forth in the Odyssey ? What do you think of Athena's eagerness to see the suitors killed? Is that proper in a divinity? Is Athena, the goddess of wisdom, wise?

[Babi]

 By our definition, GINNY, I think Athena as we see her here would be considered shrewd rather
than wise.  Perhaps she shows 'wisdom', as we see it, in other legends.

 The re-union of father and son is poignant.  But before Odysseus identified himself, I was surprised that this ragged guest dared to speak as he did to the Prince Telemachos.  I can’t
quite imagine him saying  “are you resigned to being led?”   And “..if I were son of Odysseus, or the man himself,  I’d rather have my head out from my shoulders by some slashing adversary, if I brought no hurt upon that crew!”     I was surprised when Telemachos quietly explained the situation rather than taking offense.    But then,  Homer often refers to him as ‘clear-headed’, doesn’t he? 
  Telemachos definitely is not ‘scatterbrained’, as he himself says. He quietly makes a sound argument against part of his Odysseus’s plans, persuading him they didn’t have time to check out the loyalty of every one of O’s field hands before making their attack on the suitors. He's
certainly right there.  His own life is in imminent danger.

[JudeS]

Ginny
You asked about clever actions that O. did before his present plan to get rid of the suitors. Here are two examples.
Another of O.s actions that show planning was when he hid the presents (gold and such) in the cave when he arrived back home.
Still another wily thing (and I liked this one the best) was tieing his men under the belly of the sheep in order to escape from Cyclops cave.
There are others, but let these suffice for the moment.

Here is where my mind is wandering-far from others, I'm sure.
In the back of Fagles book are listed all the names of people and places that appear in the book.  There are more than 300. Yes three hundred! The way Homer always mentions characters lineage in relation  reminded me of all the "BEGATS" in the Old Testament Bible. I wondered if Homer could have been influenced by this book or if the writers of the Old Testament could have been influenced by the Greek writers.  So I searched for the dates. Nobody can be 100% sure but there are dates given in many sources both for the Bible and for the Greek writers and Greek history.
I even found a site that includes both. Also peered into a few books.
It seems that the Bible was more or less finished when Homer and the later Greek writers were writing.
Most sites claim that the earliest date for the first stories of the Bible are from 4,000 B.C.(Genesis mainly).
However during the last thousand BC years the Apocrypha was being put together. The Apocrypha, for those interested, were the book that were not allowed into the Bible after it was codified i.e.closed for changes. The Apocrypha contains the stories of the Maccabees and other exciting, heroic people.
I couldn't find a definite date for Homer but did find the tragedian Aeschylus at525-456 BC.
I found Plato at 427 BC. There is a claim that the Apocrypha was being written from 560BC
So, I think there was some cross-pollination between Greek and Hebrew writers in the BC years.
Hope this isn't too off the topic.

[JoanK]

" I wondered if Homer could have been influenced by this book or if the writers of the Old Testament could have been influenced by the Greek writers."

I had the same question reguarding a Roman writer, Virgil. In one of his poems he wrote about ploughshares being turned into swords. It reminds me of the phrase in the bible about swords being turned into ploughshares. Of course, that could have been literally what they did then: metal must have been precious to poor people.

[JoanK]

I'm ready to move on tomorrow. the next chapter is quite interesting, as we see what kind of reception O gets when he returns to his house in disguise I'm sure we all want to know.

[ginny]

Isn't that interesting, thank you Jude.  Homer's dates are thought to be around 800 BC but that does not mean the two cultures couldn't  have come in contact with each other.

Certainly it would not be the only time that disparate religions took from each other. It's interesting you mention Virgil, Joan.

Apparently it was St. Augustine's endorsement of the  Sibyls as prophets to the pagans  which gave them their cachet. The fourth of Virgil's Eclogues appears to contain a Messianic prophecy by the Sibyl.  Augustine's approving remarks about them apparently lent support to the movement that although the Jews were preeminently the recipients of revelation before Christ, the pagans also  were given glimpses of divine truth, and thus they are found prominently in the  Sistine Chapel.

And then there were the  Sortes Virgilianae  or Virgilian Lots, attempts to foretell the future by opening his books and picking a line at random, which lasted from the Emperor Hadrian to  at least Charles I at Oxford, and Dante regarded him as a prophet of Christianity also.

Interesting!

I'm still reeling with Jude's 300 characters! I had no idea, did you all? He's slipped a lot of them in on us, 300 characters in the book!!

[bookad]

I am so glad I didn't try to graph the characters to try and keep them all straight....its impressive the author/storyteller could remember all their names
Deb

[ginny]

Isn't it? I'm sure I could not, even with no end of memory devices!

It's interesting to me that none of the artists dealing with the death of Argos, the faithful dog, describe what the text does. Or possibly your own texts say something different? 17 has it all, I can't wait to see what you think of it, it's longish tho.

[Dana]

The Argos story brought a tear to my eye

............................................he did his best
to wag his tail, nose down, with flattened ears,


poor Argos, he dies without even getting a pat, a sign of recognition.

[roshanarose]

Agamemnon - my least favourite character of Homer's, makes number two on Ancient History's worst fathers list.  Cronus makes number one.  Further information can be found on www.about.com in the Ancient History section. If you can think of any worse examples of these dastardly dads, you are free to add them to the list.  

Ginny - Was it Nero who kicked his pregnant wife in the stomach?  Poppeae (sp), I think.  Charmer that he was.  

I am trying to think who is a bad dad in the Odyssey?

[Babi]

I am firmly persuaded, JUDE, that though Job lived centuries earlier, the written
version of the story was not penned until after the return from the Babylonian captivity.
There are too many things appearing in Job that were no part of the pre-captivity beliefs.
Plus, the book is written in the Greek style and features a theme that was prominent in
the Babylonian 'golden period' of literature; ie., 'Why do the innocent suffer?"

The suitors are concerned that Telemachos could bring “the whole body of Akhaians to assembly”, and rouse them against the suitors.  Telemachos earlier attempt to do that was not successful, but his successful journey has apparently established him now as a man to be reckoned with.   Antinoos proposes to murder him, then share his flocks and herds among them all.  The house will be awarded to whomever marries Penelope .      The plot thickens!
       
   Penelope, knowing her son to still be in danger, finally gathers up her courage and pours out a tirade on the lot of them.  “Infatuate, steeped in evil!”,  she calls them.  Good for her!
     She reminds Antinoos that Odysseus once saved his life when everyone was against him.  Who knows what he might have replied, but Eurymachos was ready with a smooth lie, swearing to protect her son.  “Blasphemous lies”,  Homer called them.   I begin to see why Zeus might indeed involve himself in the coming conflict, just as Athena said.
   

[ginny]

Dana, that's what I have too. It IS sad.

RoshanaRose, yes the Empress Poppaea, (who is credited with owning Oplontis) was said to have died in 65 pregnant again from a kick given her by Nero in a fit of temper.  Suetonius is often cited as the source, it may only be rumor, however.

Bad fathers, what an interesting question. Do we have any bad fathers here (Father's Day being next Sunday, it's a good question)... besides Agamemnon, who I agree, qualifies in spades.

Babi, yes the plot really thickens. I loved 17, and I loved the way it ends, such a cliffhanger!! Also they are stepping up the invective against the suitors, you are right, with particular ones notes, one has to think, for particular destruction later.

Meet me at night!! And as the book closes:

They were singing and dancing
And having a good time, for it was evening now.

LOVE IT!  What suspense! Such echoes of the Ancient Mariner.

I'm beginning to like the Creighton U questions and here are theirs for 17:


Why does Odysseus wish to go to his own palace disguised as a beggar? What does the beggar disguise symbolize? Why is it important for him to show patience and self-restraint, even when hit and insulted? What is the meaning of the death of Argos, Odysseus' old hunting dog? Consider the advice of Athena to Odysseus (lines 470-473). Is that a consistent statement? Does it reveal an internal contradiction?

What IS the meaning of the death of Argos, Odysseus' old hunting dog? These are excellent questions, and no answers are given, what do YOU think? About anything here?

[ginny]

Man and the foreshadowing of doom for the suitors is like a drum roll here. If I were making up questions I'd ask how MANY instances of foreshadowing of death for the suitors is in this chapter and what are they?

[ginny]

This is apropos of nothing, please don't let it get you off the track, but I just found out yesterday that some of us can't see the script here: can YOU see the writing in script at the top?

[Frybabe]

I see the script just fine, Ginny.

[kidsal]

Yes, I can see the script.

Even though some suitors are more innocent than others they are all complicit.

Why does Odysseus wish to go to his own palace disguised as a beggar? Why is it important for him to show patience and self-restraint, even when hit and insulted?

O wants to get the lay of the land before the battle.  He doesn't want to be recognized until he is sure of what is happening and who is to blame.

[PatH]

Where is the script?

[ginny]

Here it is, Pat.

I'm glad some of you can see it, I think it's pretty. It's the last (blank) choice among the font choices in the drop down menu, anybody can use it. Whether or not the reader can SEE it depends on their own computer.

Sally, good point. And I am wondering if this means that he's changed, no longer the rash rush in and smash em kind of guy? He's also wanting to do some testing to see who is loyal tho Lombardo has it pretty plainly set out that it makes absolutely no difference if he does or not:

line 389 or thereabouts:

Athena
Drew near to him and prompted him
to go among the suitors and beg for crusts
And so learn which of them were decent men
And which were scoundrels--not that the goddess had
The slightest intention of sparing any of them.

This extends to Penelope too but we're not there yet. So O wants to know.

And again it's said when Telemachus,  right when Penelope finishes speaking, sneezes (around 589)

Just as she finished, Telemachus sneezed,
A loud sneeze that rang through the halls.
Penelope laughed and said to Eumaeus:

Go ahead and call the stranger for me!
Didn't you see my son sneeze at my words?
That means death will surely come to the suitors,
One and all. Not a single man will escape.

Hexter makes an interesting point. He says typically when Homeric characters weigh two courses of action, they execute one. Here, Odysseus alone,  by exercising self-control, chooses to do neither. The departure from the standard scene of "inner debate" underlines Odysseus extraordinary willpower. So this section is about showing what willpower he has too.

Hexter's  got a lot on the dog.  The word Argos "is based on an adjective that can mean both 'shiny' and swift. Standford suggests 'Flash' as an  English approximation. The name sharpens the indignity of his present bed of manure."  But why have the dog at all? I guess O couldn't approach the dog. Would that give him away? I think there's something a lot more likely to give him away here.

Gosh there's a lot here.

Why do you think Antinous threw a stool at him? I mean why is this in the plot?

On the sneeze, Hexter says: "Sneezes were regarded as (minor) incursions of the divine into this world--many people still say 'Bless you,' to anyone  who has just sneezed-- and Penelope interprets Telemachus' sneeze, coming ass it did immediately after her wish, as a favorable omen. Hence her laugh, wonderful amid her cares."

And we DO, don't we? hahahaa

[JoanK]

I was struck by the same passage GINNY quoted. It seems important to Athena in this chapter to find out who are the really bad guys and who are (at least sorta) good. yet it won't make any difference in the end to their fate in this world.

And in the next??? We are so used to the ideas of heaven for the good and hell for the bad that it's hard not to think there was some equivilant in greek religion. Does anyone know?


Perhaps the difference will be in the manner of their death (honorable or not). We'll have to waitand see.


Quibble: why did the dog lie in the manure? Why didn't he just move over a few feet?

The scene of the dog recognizing him is the one I knew about from childhood, before I read The Odyssey. I guess, it makes a big impression on everyone.

[Dana]

"What is the meaning of the death of Argos?"

A strange question I thought.
Some deep meaning, or what?
Maybe each person reads something a little different.
To me it means, "life's a bitch and then you die....."  Maybe its a reality wake up call.  Odysseus is going to win thru in the end, the suitors are going to get punished as they deserve, but the dog dies helpless on a dung heap with the promise of a better tomorrow before his eyes, but too late for him. So either he dies with regret in his heart, or contentment at seeing his master...I don't think the latter, too saintly....he dies in pain, aged and alone.
So its a reality check amid the fantasy.

The Greeks didn't like old age. And thought that life was a trial often.
Here's a couple of couplets:

Men are foolish and childish,who weep for the dead.
and not for the flower of youth that perishes.


Enjoy yourself please dearest one. Soon again there will be other men,
and I having died, will be black earth.

[Frybabe]

Oh boy, another font. I didn't know it was there Ginny. How did you find it? I wonder why it is a blank space on the drop down menu.

[Dana]

I found the poetic translation of couplet no 1, by TF Higham--original, Theognis;

What fools men are to weep the dead and gone!
Unwept, youth drops its petals one by one.


And how about this: (Mimnermus, translated by G. Lowes Dickson):

.........................But painful age
The bane of beauty, follows swiftly on,
Wearies the heart of man with sad presage
And takes away his pleasure in the sun.

[JudeS]

Dana
I have a longer bit of the same poem but by a differeent translator:

We are as leaves in jewelled springtime growing
That open to the sunlight's quickening rays:
So joy in our span of youth,unknowing
If God shall bring us good or evil days.
Two fates beside thee stand;the one hath sorrow,
Dull age's fruit, that other gives the boon
Of Death, for youth's fair flower hath no tomorrow,
And lives but as a sunlit afternoon.

In other words ""Gather ye roses while ye may'.

[ginny]

Whoa, those are beautiful, thank you Dana and Jude.

Dana, that's certainly as good a speculation or couple of speculations  about the dog dying as any. Dog manages to live all that time, sees master, and dies. I would probably tend to think the dog was happy to see his master again. Hope is here? The dung heap, Joan K, a good question. I guess the dog was worn out and it's obvious nobody was caring FOR the dog, so he just lay where he was, I guess.  I'm not sure why O going over TO the dog would have revealed himself, the dog is really old and probably doesn't object to anybody any more.

Hexter has his own interpretation tho this is not his question.  I mean you have to wonder why the dog episode is in the book at all?

Hexter says "The man in disguise is recognized only by 'man's best friend.' This phrase is more apt in its Odysseyan context than in times when the relationship is one of a pet to his owner. Dogs were not regarded as items of luxury, but, like other domestic animals, working members of the household: they served as guards or aided in the hunt....Argos had been trained by Odysseus to fulfill his function as a necessary auxiliary to one of the standard peace time pursuits of a man of property and standing. His unappreciated existence had become one of  meaningless misery, which demonstrates clearly the impact of Odysseus' twenty year absence. The rot and waste of a land without its lord, of a house without its master, is reflected here by the life of an animal."

So Hexter sees him there to embody the extent of the ruin.


But nobody else recognizes Odysseus.

What do you think of the prophesy of Telemachus' friend?  Does he leave after making this prophesy? I mean, is THIS his only purpose? Talk about a walk on part!

...for I will prophesy.....
I swear, ....

That this same Odysseus, mark my words,
Until  this moment in his own native land,
Sitting still or on the move, learning of this evil.
And he is sowing evil for all the suitors.
Such is the bird of omen I saw
From the ship, and I cried it out to Telemachus.

But apparently he only said this to Penelope, is that what you got? One might think if this was said, given the superstition of the times, people would be even MORE apt to look for O in every stranger, including the new beggar?

It seems like the cast is being divided now into camps: loyal and disloyal. We've got the two loyal servants, the swineherd and the serving lady, and the dog who died, and Telemachus and Penelope. That's a VERY small army to help O against 108+ Then Odysseus tells his Kretan story yet again. Hexter says he changes it and  Antinous interrupts this change before the swineherd can realize it's changed, if he remembers it at all,  and Odysseus makes the point that Antinous himself is nothing more than a beggar living off the wealth of another.

Here is where Antinous throws the stool.  The others gave him something, tho, am I right? So here whether or not they give to him they are doomed. I am not sure why these passages are in here unless it's to heighten the audience's appreciation of what's coming for Antinous and lest they think OH that's too much?

And speaking of questions with no answer I've found more. I love seeing what aspects  people zoom IN on, these are from: http://faculty.gvsu.edu/websterm/Odyssey.htm

In  books 13-19 why do you suppose Homer emphasizes the lies that unscrupulous beggars will tell to get a meal? (See 11.373-86, 13.259-64, 13.299-345, 14.137-182, 14.389-438, 19.219-225, 19.286-345.)


In what ways can you connect Odysseus' disguise as a beggar with the themes of "a man" and re-establishing his name and fame? In what ways can you connect his disguise with the themes of "the book of the belly"—gifts, greed, hunger, eating? (See pp. 88, 101, 210-211, 232-3 [15.375-79], 263, 265 [17.310-16], 266-271, 276-77, 280, 287-8, 319-21).

Why do you think pigs and dogs are associated with recognition scenes (p. 240, 265-66) and with begging and the belly (pp. 263-5, 279)?

Now that last one makes one think, doesn't it?

What do YOU think about anything in Book 17 or anything else?

[Babi]

 Isn't the disguise, the self-restraint and patience, a necessary tactic? You can't just
march in and start fighting that many enemies at once. Some of the famous Odysseus guile
and strategy is definitely called for here.
  And isn't it sort of a tradition of the 'faithful old dog', that he keeps going until
his master returns. Having seen him once again, he dies happily?  The pile of manure
may be the result of keeping the dog chained in one spot. A cruel thing to do, but it still happens
with puppy mills and thoughtless dog owners.
 
 It seems to me so pointless to determine which of the suitors are comparatively decent
men, when the plan is to kill them anyway.  Why bother?  Do they want to say something
nice about them at the funeral?

[ginny]

That's a good point, Babi. Maybe they won't even HAVE a funeral, that would, in the  Greek world, diss them permanently.  I have a feeling when the bloodletting starts we'll all be saying oh it's too much, so in this way by demonizing the enemy, the enemy seems to "deserve" it.

Good point on the caution we suddenly see with O.

Frybabe, marcie added the new font but for some reason it won't show its name.

[bookad]

belatedly...Ginny I was able to see the script
Deb

[PatH]

I was able to see it too.  I had misunderstood and though you meant there was some script actually in the painting.

[Dana]

Amazon just sent me a recommendation for The Orestia, trilogy of plays by Aeschylus, Agamemnon, The Libation Bearers and The Eumenides.  All our favorite people--Agamamnon, Klytaemnestra, Athena.  Translated by Fagles.  The reviewsare interesting.  I would like to recommend it for our next endeavour.

[JoanK]

I got the Orestia on my kindle, hoping we would read it. Don't remember the translator, and we are learning how important the translators are.

I'm feeling very stupid: Don't know the answers to any of the questions. But it's interesting to hear about" the themes of "the book of the belly"—gifts, greed, hunger, eating?". Is that a fair description of the Odessy?

[JoanK]

I'm reading a book by a captain of a fishing boat (Seaworthy by Linda Greenlaw) and she says "There are no athiests at sea". Would you say the Odyssey bears that out? She also talks a lot about is (or should be) held responsible when something goes wrong. After she nearly loses a crew member at sea, she worries a lot about whether, and how much to hold herself responsible versus nature, fate, God. She says it's human nature to want to hold SOMEONE responsible.

how does The Odyssey deal with this problem? How would it be different today?

[JoanK]

BABI: that website of biographiesthat you posted a few days ago is wonderful! In case anyone missed it, here it is again.

http://www.third-millennium-library.com/readinghall/GalleryofHistory/DOOR.html

[Babi]

 It does offer a lot, doesn't it, JOANK.  Glad you like it, too.

 Homer places what you might call a real 'mouthful' into our faithful Eumaios. .Eumaios manages in one sentence to make an observation about the care given the dying dog, servants, and mankind in general, including Odysseus.
“You know how servants are; without a master they have no will to labor, or excel.  For Zeus, who views the wide world takes away half the manhood of a man, that day he goes into captivity and slavery.”     
  I have nothing whatever to add to that.

[PatH]

That's another black hole site, Babi.  The choices of modern men to be included seems rather odd.

[JudeS]

Josn K
re: No atheists at sea:
I heard the saying from WW1 "There are no atheists in the trenches."
and from WW 2 "There are no atheists in foxholes."
 So the more perilous the world around us, the greater the need to hold on to something sublime and bigger than the precarious moment.

I will be going away to an Elder Hostel in Baltimore so I will be back on line in about two weeks. I imagine that the discussion will still be going on. I will miss all of your clever remarks and yes Ginny, even the questions that we recalcitrant pupils keep refusing to answer.

[JoanK]

JUDE: have a great time! Looking forward to learning what you saw and did there.