Author Topic: Classics Book Club, The  (Read 492826 times)

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #600 on: February 19, 2011, 03:06:01 PM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.



Now reading:


February 22- Books II and III: Telemachus goes on his own quest


Attic black figure kylix, 530BC
Attributed to Exekias
Antikensammlungen, Munich

In this scene, set between 'eyes', warriors fight over the body of Patroclus,
stripped of his armour. One attempts to drag the body away.


The Murder of Agamemnon
Pierre Narcisse Guerin (1774 - 1833)
Louvre, Paris

  
Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny  



Useful Links:

1. Critical Analysis: Free SparkNotes background and analysis  on the Odyssey
2. Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:
3. Initial Points to Watch For: submitted by JudeS
4. Maps:
http://www.seniorlearn.org/latin/ulysses_penelope/Odysseusmap.jpg
http://www.wesleyan.edu/~mkatz/Images/Voyages.jpg
http://www.seniorlearn.org/latin/ulysses_penelope/Odysseusmap2.jpg


Clytemnestra and the body of Agamemnon
Attic red figure kylix
attr. to the Byrgos Painter
c. 490 BC
Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York


Telemachos, accompanied by Athene disguised as Mentor, searches for his father
Engraving and etching on paper
John Flaxman
1805
Tate Gallery

   

JUDE: we were posting together. Yes, homer lets us see all of the effects of war. The aging father as well.

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #601 on: February 19, 2011, 03:26:01 PM »
MIPPY: I missed your post on Hebrew -- it was at the end of the heading, and I must have scrolled past it. Do you speak or read Yiddish? Is it written right to left, as hebrew is?

Dana

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #602 on: February 19, 2011, 04:17:57 PM »
The word used to describe Athena is glaukopis Athene.
 In the lexicon glaukos= "in Hom.,prob. without any notion of color, gleaming, silvery, of the sea. Later,certainly with a notion of colour, bluish green, gray, Lat. glaucus, of the olive. glaukopis as epith. of Athena, with gleaming eyes, bright-eyed."

glaux, glaukos is the word for owl, "so called from its glaring eyes"  Athena is also called owl eyed I believe.

Dana

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #603 on: February 19, 2011, 04:27:34 PM »
"I'm not surprised that Clytemnestra was held to be more typical than Penelope. Cultures that hold women in low esteem, always seem to have an undercurrent of "the evil woman"."

JoanK.....
That is the point I was trying to make a while back.  The evil woman held in low esteem is the stereotypical cultural attempt of the male to rationalize the unconscious fear of woman's power as the bearer of life


JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #604 on: February 19, 2011, 04:41:16 PM »
DANA: your post about eyes was one of four in a row that I missed seeing. Something must have happened.

So perhaps it would seem that the progression MIGHT have gone like this: originally, the word in Homer was gleaming, silvery, of the sea. Then the idea of color got added. Then, because owls had a similar name because of their gleaming eyes, Athena's eyes became associated with owls.

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #605 on: February 19, 2011, 09:53:23 PM »
JoanK - The Roman Goddess of the Hunt is Diana.  The Greek Goddess of the Hunt is Artemis.

I have also been wondering why Athena favoured Odysseus.  It could have had something to do with her half brother, Poseidon, who was Athena's rival for the patronage of the city of Athens.  Zeus, father of both, pitted them against each other and wanted to know what each of them could offer Athens.  Poseidon offered a spring of saltwater (or was it fresh water?); but Athena offered olive trees.  Zeus chose Athena's offering.  In my reckoning and having read about gods and goddesses ego, Poseidon was probably miffed about it.  There is likely to be something in the Iliad about Athena's and Poseidon's attitude to Odysseus.  The gods did have to arrange Odysseus voyage home to coincide with Poseidon's visit to AEthiopia.  

Also, according to some sources Athena was largely responsible for the idea and execution of the Wooden Horse and gave Odysseus ideas on how to build it.

Athena and Hera both sided with the Greek side in the Trojan War, said to be due to Paris' choice of Aphrodite in that beauty competition.
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #606 on: February 19, 2011, 10:09:11 PM »
FYI Greek/Roman gods and goddesses

Apollo - Apollo
Aphrodite - Venus
Ares - Mars
Artemis - Diana
Athena - Minerva
Demeter - Ceres
Hades - Pluto (see more info on link)
Hephaestos - Vulcan
Hera - Juno
Hermes - Mercury
Hestia - Vesta
Kronos - Saturn
Persephone - Proserpina (I once had a possum called Persephone)
Poseidon - Neptune
Zeus - Jupiter

www.ancienthistory.aboutcom/od/romangods
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

Babi

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #607 on: February 20, 2011, 08:55:13 AM »
Quote
"Zeus chose Athena's offering.  In my reckoning and having read about gods and goddesses ego, Poseidon was probably miffed about it."
   
 Anybody else hear an echo of another story in JOANK'S words? This reminds me of Cain's reaction when God preferred Abel's offering to his. (There was a good reason for that, but that's another story.)
 It's clear the various gods and goddesses  have favorites among the
mortals, whom they support and defend in times of trouble.  So of
course, this brings them into sly conflict with those gods supporting
favorites on the other side. I can see why they are often seen as playing games with mortal lives for their own amusement. And of course, as rivals for dominance in cities and the worship of these humans.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #608 on: February 20, 2011, 09:25:30 AM »
What  interesting posts these last have been.

I am glad to have Jude taking up the cause of the father in absentia, too, and what a good point, another father/ son relationship.

Roshannarose, thank you for those great musings on Athena/ Odysseus, it's fascinating to see what all may lie behind these 14 initial pages, and the Roman equivalent of the Greek gods, we probably need to put that up somewhere too. We're saving all these for a Reader's Guide we will construct of your questions and charts, links and comparisons,  so we're saving as we go.

Babi, what an interesting series of thoughts on the pettiness of the Greek gods.

You said, I can see why they are often seen as playing games with mortal lives for their own amusement.

Let me wonder this with you all:  this concept of "Gods Behaving Badly," being spiteful, taking sides, quarreling like children, and a lot more and a lot worse, how does this strike your own 2011 sensibilities?

Is this a deal breaker as regards being able to relate to these people?  How does this conflict with the way  we view our own idea of deity  in 2011? Can you relate to these gods with these all too human traits?  There ARE "modern" gods with these traits, am I thinking of the pantheon of Indian (the country of India) gods? And are there more around the world?

How does one reconcile "gods" who behave like children?

Great points here!

Roxania

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #609 on: February 20, 2011, 01:39:04 PM »
I suspect that Odysseus might be Athena's guy because they have so much in common.  Odysseus is described as "wise," but with the main meaning of "clever" and "cunning."

In her book "The Goddesses in Everywoman," Jean Shinoda-Bolen, a Jungian therapist, describes Athena as the ultimate Daddy's girl, having been born from the head of Zeus.  She's the goddess of wisdom, but she has a lot of cunning in her makeup, too.  As Shinoda-Bolen says, if Athena were around today, she'd be the kind of woman who succeeded by kissing up to the powerful men in her organization, while not giving any other women a hand up.  And the first thing she does after the conversation with Zeus is hop into a disguise--the first of many.  (Granted, that's what the gods did when interacting with humans, but in her case it seems especially appropriate.  I love the way she never even seems to have to think about which disguise she should assume.)  

I've been wondering about the whole political set-up in the story--are we looking at the end of a matrilineal succession?  Otherwise, why would Odysseus be king if his father were still around?  And Laertes is referred to as "Lord Laertes" and "that good old man," so it doesn't sound as though he was ever a king.  It would make sense if Odysseus became king by marrying the daughter of a previous queen.  That would also explain why there are all these suitors, even though Penelope has also, presumably, produced an heir--but only a male one.  If she had had a daughter, I'd bet the suitors would be after her instead.  

It makes me wonder whether, if Graves is right about whatever events inspired the story happening about 800 years before the Odyssey was written, Homer, who didn't have access to GoogleScholar, wouldn't necessarily have known about the matrilineal aspect of it, and so superimposed the story onto the patriarchal kingship model of his own time.  It's the sort of thing Shakespeare did with his sources, after all.

And if you buy that idea, we can add yet another tension--the old matrilineal system vs. the new patriarchy, where Telemachus inherits because he is Odysseus's son.

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #610 on: February 20, 2011, 02:39:05 PM »
ROSE: thank you for that list of Greek-Roman names. Your possum would have been proud of you.

I admit I prefer the name that's the easiest to spell.

"Also, according to some sources Athena was largely responsible for the idea and execution of the Wooden Horse and gave Odysseus ideas on how to build it."

Then she definitely was on O's side during the seige of Troy, and is just continuing her help. The gods do seem to be loyal -- once they pick someone to help, they stick with them. Unfortunately, once they pick someone to be against, they stick with that also.



JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #611 on: February 20, 2011, 02:43:13 PM »
ROXANIA: an interesting take on Athena. And I had no idea that greece had been matrilineal. Do historians have dates for that?

Dana

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #612 on: February 20, 2011, 02:49:43 PM »
I think the kings come to power thru a power struggle,not necessarily a transfer from father to son..  As T. says,

"There are eligible men enough,
heaven knows,on the island,young and old,
and one of them perhaps may come to power
after the death of king Odysseus."

Interestingly, I discovered that Penelope, Klytaemnestra and Helen are all related.  K. and H. are sisters and P. is their cousin. Her father is Agamamnon and Meneaus' brother.  They are kings in their own lands.

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #613 on: February 20, 2011, 02:52:27 PM »
Goodness! The relationships among these Greeks get very complicated, don't they.

Roxania

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #614 on: February 20, 2011, 03:31:28 PM »
If they ever were, it would have been in pre-historical times.  It's just an idea that I got because I read Margaret Atwood's The Penelopiad, and she put me onto Graves--and the whole idea of a Mother Goddess cult being replaced by the Olympians was just kind of a throwaway line in a larger discussion.  Plus, it seems to account for Laertes not being a king and all those suitors.  So I'm definitely running away with something that could well be pretty flimsy.  But if it had been the case, a religious shift like that would probably involve a change in the political system as well--separation of church and state not having been invented yet!

I once read an interesting book by a guy who got interested in the question of why so many ancient shrines around the Mediterranean that had originally been dedicated to female gods were later rededicated to male gods.  He comes up with an explanation, but I'm not entirely sure I buy it:

http://www.alphabetvsgoddess.com/

From what little I've read, there seems to be a general sense that matrilineal succession was practiced in many early European societies, but I'm not sure how much hard archaeological evidence there is for it--or who was doing it, or when they stopped.  I do seem to remember that, ages ago, when I was an undergrad, the theory was that Mother Goddess worship came into being before primitive people figured out the connection between sex and the arrival of a baby nine months later, and ended when they figured it out--and men decided they were responsible for the whole process, and women were merely incubators.  So obviously it's something very early in human history.  And as Telemachus said, it's hard to be sure who your father is.  Your mother is pretty obvious.




Frybabe

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #615 on: February 20, 2011, 03:57:46 PM »
Roxiana, your comments are enough to make me want to go off and do some investigating. I remember reading about matriarchal and other kinship groupings long ago in anthropology classes. I don't recall if it was considered common in ancient times.

Since I am reading the Pope version, your comment about Shakespeare hit home. Every time I pick it up to read, I feel like I am reading a Shakespearean play.

Dana

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #616 on: February 20, 2011, 04:09:04 PM »
I wrote that wrongly--for what its worth I meant to say that Penelope's father is the brother of Helen and Klytemnestra's father.......!

re the greek gods as portrayed here anyway--I see them as mankind's best fantasy of the ideal life....immortal, eternally vigorous and enthusiastic, given to feasting and lovemaking and for diversion interfering in the affairs of mankind...

they certainly add a delightful dimension to the story

perhaps these people who play virtual reality games today feel a bit like Greek gods!

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #617 on: February 20, 2011, 05:51:47 PM »
"perhaps these people who play virtual reality games today feel a bit like Greek gods!"

or goddesses :)

Next week we'll read Book 2.

Roxania

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #618 on: February 20, 2011, 06:52:19 PM »
Frybabe, I REALLY feel like I'm getting a Shakespearean version, because I'm listening to Ian McKellan read the Fagles translation--and I can't tell whether it's because of the translator or the reader!  Certainly I've never heard anyone else who could pump so much nuance into a single syllable!  I'm also reading the Lombardo translation, which is more like Hemingway!  I also think the whole thing is kind of Shakespearean, because each character has such a well-developed point of view--and I'm not sure we really get that again until Shakespeare turns up.  There was a long time during the Middle Ages when writers relied a lot more on idealizations and stock character types.

Dana and JoanK, I loved your comments about the video games!  We inherited some ancient video game set years ago--the only one we've ever had--from a relative who upgraded.  One of the games, which I think was called "Populus," pretended that each of the players was a god.  At first all you could do was raise or lower the level of the earth to cause floods, but your power increased as your number of followers grew, and then you could cause wars and disease and all kinds of stuff for your opponents' followers, and deliver prosperity and victory to yours.  The idea, obviously, was to get as many followers as you could, while eliminating everyone else's followers.

Poor Telemachus can't seem to do anything by himself!  Athena recruits the crew, loads the supplies, provides the winds, tells him what to say to Nestor (which explains why he asks about that promise between Odysseus and Nestor, which he otherwise probably wouldn't have known about).  Makes you wonder why she ever thought he had any potential at all.


Dana

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #619 on: February 20, 2011, 07:13:25 PM »
yes, I agree, Telemacus is a youth who needs to grow up.  A case of retarded developement!

mabel1015j

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #620 on: February 20, 2011, 07:17:39 PM »
As i had said before, i read When God was a Woman too long ago to remember details, but i tho't some of might enjoy reading it, and i might go back for a second reading.

Here is the Amazon site for the book. The description is not helpful, but the consumer reviews are thoughtful and very interesting and give you a better idea of what is in the book.

http://www.amazon.com/When-God-Woman-Merlin-Stone/dp/015696158X

Jean

Roxania

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #621 on: February 20, 2011, 09:24:49 PM »
Sounds interesting--thanks, Mabel!

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #622 on: February 20, 2011, 10:57:02 PM »
I always thought that The Earth Goddess was first and then the Sky God.  These deities don't only exist in Greek religion (Gaia and Zeus).  The Earth Goddess was worshipped because she was the mother and controlled the seasons, and fecundity in general, or so it seemed.  After humans had stopped their nomadic existence and settled  in one particular location, fights developed among the inhabitants of different settlements as to who should have the land with the most water, the best soil and the best farming land.  As soon as the fights began, men being physically stronger, became higher in status, and protectors of goods, and the warlords began to worship the Sky Gods, in the Greek case, Zeus.  Just a theory.  I read it somewhere, but can't remember where.  In short - Earth Goddess = Peace; Sky God = War.

I have visited Olympia in Greece twice.  The original temple built there was to Hera, Zeus' wife in Olympian terms.  btw Olympia and Mt Olympus are not the same place.  Mt Olympus is on the mainland, a fair way north of Athens, and Olympia in the Pelopponese.  Olympia is a beautiful place, peaceful, serene and beautifully set not too far from a river.  The running track is straight and is about 50 metres long.  There is no seating, just sloping banks of grass for the masses.  There is however, one prominent marble seat, resembling a throne.  Our guide told us it was originally for Hera and the Women's Games which took place in history before the games were for men only. Women were then forbidden to attend the Olympic Games.  After I wrote this (from memory)I checked about Heraia, Hera's games for women.  Some say it took place at Olympia the same year as the Olympics were held, but on different days to the mens' games.  One other site says that the Heraia were held in Argos.   

Another interesting point about temples in Greece.  It is normal to see a Orthodox Church built on the foundations of an ancient Greek temple.  They wouldn't want to let those amazing sites go to waste.  One church I saw in Paros, with a magnificent view, had huge marble slabs as its foundation.  A wall, also on Paros, was built mostly of column drums and slabs from an ancient temple.  They like to recycle.  Of course I would have preferred to see the original temple, but I was told that it was a matter of convenience that the Islanders of Paros recycled the marble for building, after all people never TAKE marble to Paros.
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #623 on: February 21, 2011, 07:26:08 AM »
Odysseus is mortal; his Father; Laertes – Grandparents; Arcesius, and Chalcomedusa
Odysseus’ Mother; Anticleia – Grandparents; Autolycus and Amphithea

     Laertes, the son of Arcesius, King of Ithaca and Chalcomedusa.

          Grandmother: Chalcomedusa - chalcos ("copper") and medousa ("guardian" or "protectress"), identifies her as the protector of Bronze Age metal-working technology.

          Grandfather: Arcesius was the son of Cephalus, and king in Ithaca. Zeus made his line one of "only sons": his only son was Laertes, whose only son was Odysseus, whose only son was Telemachus. - Cephalus is an Ancient Greek name, used both for the hero-figure in Greek mythology and carried as a theophoric name by historical persons. The word kephalos is Greek for "head", because Cephalus was the founding "head" of a great family. It could be that Cephalus means the head of the sun who kills (evaporates) Procris (dew) with his unerring ray or 'javelin'. Cephalus was one of the lovers of the dawn goddess Eos.

     Odysseus’ mother Anticleia is the daughter of Autolycus and Amphithea. His mother, Anticleia is the granddaughter of the trickster god Hermes (who was the father of her father, Autolycus).

          Grandfather: Autolycus is the son of Hermes and Chione. Chione was the daughter of Daedalion. She was very beautiful, and had countless suitors, including the gods Apollo and Hermes. Apollo waited for nightfall and then approached her in the guise of an old woman. Hermes put her to sleep and raped her. She became pregnant with twins, one (Autolycus) the son of Hermes, and the other (Philammon), the son of Apollo.

Here is a nice web page of the Zeus Family of Gods and Goddesses

I thought this was an interesting quote
Quote
The majority of Zeus' children were only linked to him with the briefest of genealogical references. Most of these were the mythical founders of certain (historical) noble and royal houses, who naturally wished to claim descent from the king of the gods.
And then later in history we have kings and Rulers crowned with the blessings of the Holy Roman Church which was the considered direct link to God. These noble and royal houses sure like to advertise a pedigree that cannot be topped…
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #624 on: February 21, 2011, 07:36:39 AM »
Researching and someplace I did read that the reason the games were boys only is because the boys were nude. The reason for that is that earlier there were girls who dressed as boys and won - the embarrassment was too great and so to assure that boys were the winners, in keeping with the original plan for the games, as an all boys games, naked the proof was assured. The chariot races evidently were the only part of the games that were coed. However, the Olympic games originated after the Trojan War and after the Odyssey - 776 BC is the beginning of the Olympic Games

So far I am finding it was the Minoan civilization that held women in high esteem with women jumping over bulls on wall decorations and goddesses ruling the roost. They appear peaceful as compared to the Mycenaean civilization of pre-Greeks who were war-like and who existed on piracy and trade.

I wanted to look at the culture from the point of view of what marriage meant for women, and what part of the house they could enter. One thing leads to another and timing for this story becomes part of making suppositions - the Polis, ‘City/State’ concept of governing came after the Dark Age, which was after this Bronze Age, which is the time of the stories, the Iliad and the Odyssey. There seems to be many who say that Homer is telling a story that happened 800 years prior to his lifetime - and so I am guessing some of his references would be during the time he lived - as everyone agrees there was no books much less the internet to make sure his references were timely.

Sparta had a different culture than most of the other areas in what we now consider the Greek World. The women wore lighter fabric, short, tunic dresses and had more power that allowed them to inherit land from their husbands and fathers. I cannot find anything specific about Ithica, however, the time of the story is before the Dorians, during the time when clans and tribes were the way of life.

Think of what we have learned about Tribal law since Iraq. Trial culture and law is as a result of family loyalty that started with a clan and grew to include several families. - Early Roman families include I believe 7 families among the earliest tribes of Rome that later became a dozen and grew from there. During the time of Odysseus I cannot find the  number of tribes in this area - we do know that Tribal law is not the same as the Democratic system of the Polis. Sparta is credited with an early City/State form of government but not until 800BC which is after the Odyssey - and Athens Democracy is around 508 BC.

And so again, we are talking of a time before City/State, Polis, when Tribal Law and Clan loyalty was the rule. The communities of people would have been alike and in one way or another all related to each other. There are sites explaining who could or could not marry and so there had to be some understanding of defective children as a result of in-marriage. I am also thinking Hollywood has so glamorized the people in these stories and during this time in history that we may be trying to imagine behavior, ethics and personal morality based on our conception of modern man - and so I question the motive of Penelope based on Love. Love in marriage is a medieval concept.

It sounds like Odysseus was a clan chieftain or king. The marriage rituals that describe women dressing the bride, that include a long ceremony, took place in a later time around 600-525 BC coinciding with the art found on the various archaeological vases that also depicts women talking at fountains - the Trojan War and the Odyssey took place some 300 - 400 years earlier -

There were two marriage rituals in keeping with tribal societies during the Late Helladic, in the area of Mycenae, Troy, Athens and other nearby areas during the Bronze Age. I cannot tell which Penelope would have experienced. One practice involved Bride kidnapping. The more a girl kicks and screams the more she is thought to be virtuous and if she refuses to eat or sit she is again thought to be pure and virtuous.

Another marriage ritual involve the new wife tucked away in a room - head shaved -  wearing boys clothes - [that I cannot figure out why] - and the groom, after eating with  his chums, sneaks in - this sneaking in to see his wife secreted away can go on for weeks on end so that some women are pregnant when they finally join the household.

After marriage, we learn from our story that a women had quarters on the second level. Again we have no information if this was Homer telling the story from his perspective 8oo years later since we only have evidence of stone houses after archeological digs.

Known is that after 600 BC the Greek house was a two story timber framed house with a  tile, slate or stone roof, built around a courtyard. There was a 'men's apartment or 'banqueting hall' and the women's quarters, which were the rooms on the second floor with the men’s quarters directly underneath. Usually women were kept secluded in their second floor quarters, out of way of male visitors whom the husband might be entertaining at a banquet and symposium.

The symposium is a 'drinking party'. All who attend wore wreaths and reclined on couches. A female double-aulos player, who often was a hetaira, a call-girl, entertained the men along with female slaves or other female entertainers (like dancers or acrobats). Although wine was the drink of choice it was always mixed with water. The host decided the ratio and everyone abided with the choice.

It was more honorable for women to remain indoors. The household was under her management; where as for men it was more shameful to remain indoors rather than taking care of affairs outside the house. The husband lived out of doors in the Agora, the Assembly, the gymnasium, on the farm, and in time of war, on warships or on the battlefield.  

Because women were viewed as incapable of a rationally informed moral decision, she was not trusted to go outside of the house unaccompanied; the husband or a slave did the shopping. The only times a woman could go outside without damaging her reputation would be to attend weddings, funerals, and religious festivals limited to females
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #625 on: February 21, 2011, 07:56:45 AM »
From what I am reading it appears that a matriarchal society could have been active during the Minoan Civilization - they were big on Goddesses and they honored women, who wore distinctive high hair styles - no time now but a look see to find any women rulers would probably give us a clue.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #626 on: February 21, 2011, 08:22:29 AM »

Goodness gracious what a discussion you're making of this, and all the elements you bring in here dazzle more than the last. One of the huge benefits of our book discussions here, is that  it's like talking to a million encyclopedias, and so many of your ideas are things I've personally never heard of. Or thought about.

Now today we start with Books II and III which I personally loved. Pirates of the  Caribbean has nothing on the Odyssey, and Lombardo is in his element here. How are your  translations holding up in this section?  I WOULD like to hear McKellen on this!

So Telemachus starts out on his own Odyssey, another parallel!  What struck YOU most  about Books II and III? We'd like to hear from everybody today, Presidents Day in the US with all it's ancient backgrounds and ramifications, believe it or not.

One of our overarching questions needs to be does this book have anything to say to US in 2011?  Isn't that the definition of a "classic?"   That it still speaks to us? Standing in the way of that somewhat is the behavior of the gods, perhaps?

But this morning we have Tension #...is it 13 or 14?--the old matrilineal system vs. the new patriarchy, where Telemachus inherits because he is Odysseus's son.We're keeping a list, good one Roxania!

Geneology, the political structure, the women goddesses, the I also think the whole thing is kind of Shakespearean, because each character has such a well-developed point of view--and I'm not sure we really get that again until Shakespeare turns up element, and the game Populus, which made me just about fall out of my chair! You all do know that some of the most popular video games (and board games) involve creating your own Roman kingdom and getting to play god with the characters. This:  "Populus," pretended that each of the players was a god.  At first all you could do was raise or lower the level of the earth to cause floods, but your power increased as your number of followers grew, and then you could cause wars and disease and all kinds of stuff for your opponents' followers, and deliver prosperity and victory to yours.  The idea, obviously, was to get as many followers as you could, while eliminating everyone else's followers. blew me out of the chair....sounds like a combo of Facebook and Twitter and the ancient Greek gods.  Amazing the things which come up in these discussions!

What will be discussed today? This discussion reminds me of a sushi bar I just saw in Heathrow Airport, where the diner sits expectantly with his own thoughts and watches a silver spiral of wondrous treats, each different and interesting,  on a moving track snaking in front of him. He grabs what he wants and enjoys regarding  the rest, and he gets to make a full meal and something to talk about later on. You can't beat that experience,. and we have it right here without undergoing a scanner, too. :)
 

Here  YOU are providing the sumptuous feast! What are your thoughts on Books II and III? I absolutely loved them.

I'm going to glory in what you just said one more time and then frame some thoughts on II and III.


ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #627 on: February 21, 2011, 08:54:39 AM »
Marcie has done these two spectacular pages for us, which will appear as links in the heading, and I wanted to call your attention to them as our headings here will be filled with art (submissions always welcome):

http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/odyssey/odyssey_points.html  : Jude's list of initial points to watch for

http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/odyssey/odyssey_translations.html

Everybody's translations.

Beautiful work, I thought you'd like to see it!  Thank you, Marcie!


Mippy

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #628 on: February 21, 2011, 09:14:20 AM »
The discussion about matrilineal succession has been astonishing!   I'd previously assumed the sons of kings were kings, as in the background of the Greek Alexander the Great.

Is any of the confusion about who would rule because Ithaca was a City-State, not a big kingdom?
Other nearby city-states have their own active kings or chieftains.   Perhaps the suitors include some
of the younger sons of those chieftains, who do not expect to inherit wealth at home.   So they are fortune hunters, as Lombardo says:  eating (Penelope) out of house and home.

Apparently Laertes, the former king, is retired, not disabled:

In Lombardo  [line 205]
Go and ask old Laertes.  They say he never
Comes to town any more, lives out in the country,
A hard life with just an old woman to help him.

Here is some of the Pope version, line numbers not in Kindle
Laertes can relate
Our faith unspotted and its early date;
Who press'd with heart-corroding grief and years,
To the gay court a rural shed pretors,
Where, sole of all his train, a matron sage
Supports with homely fond his drooping age ...
    
In edit:  Babi, I agree.  The poetry of Book II's opening is extraordinary! 
Want to jump on a plane and go to the Greek Isles!!       :D
quot libros, quam breve tempus

Babi

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #629 on: February 21, 2011, 09:18:02 AM »
 GINNY, my 2011 sensibilities tell me that the Greek and Roman gods were pretty much
a reflection of mortal behavior. Some virtues, some power, quarrelsome, envious,
lustful, etc. 

 Good questions, ROXANIA. We do know, tho', that Penelope was the daughter of another
Greek king. I had thought that Laertes must have simply retired to spend his old
age tending his vineyard. One would think, tho', that he should return when his
daughter-in-law and grandson needed him. It may be, as you suggested, that Odysseus
did not inherit his 'kingdom' but carved it out for himself.
  What you wrote about Mother Goddess worship sounds very likely to me. It would be
only natural to worship the females when they apparently were solely responsible for
the survival of the race.

 Book II....I loved the opening verses, with their description of Telemachus waking and preparing
to confront his mother's suitors.  I can't help thinking, tho', that with "a god's brilliance upon him"
a "clarion voice"  and "a sunlit grace that held the eye of the multitude",  the men he called to
assembly should have been more impressed.  Obviously, some managed not to be awed.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #630 on: February 21, 2011, 09:36:49 AM »
Oh good points,  Babi,  and more contrasts, why not, one wonders? With all that godlike sparkle, why have they managed not to be awed?

 Poor Telemachus shows his testosterone oats, girds his loins, says the power is his now in this house, tells mom to go upstairs, goaded on to this by Athene, and what's the result?

Book II lines 326 ff: Lombardo:

Ah, Telemachus, the dauntless orator,
That's the spirit! No hard feelings now!
Let's  just eat and drink as we always have.

The townspeople will provide you with everything--
A ship, a crew--to speed you on to sacred Pylos
In your search for news of your noble father." --Antinous who came up to Telemachus "with a laugh."

The suitors are laughing at him! Antinous, do we see him as  sort of the ring leader?

In these two sections we hear why the neighbors don't help, why the suitors are there, it made sense to me, did it to you?

THIS one was ELECTRIC to me:

II: line 268ff, another suitor, Leocritus, speaks:

And do you think that even with superior numbers
People are going to fight us over a dinner?
Even if Odysseus, your Ithacan hero himself
Showed up, all hot to throw the suitors out of his house---well, let's just say
His wife wouldn't be too happy to see him,
No matter how much she missed him, that's how ugly
His death would be. No, you're way off the mark."

What on earth does this mean? Why does he say this? Is he right?

We could talk on these two books forever! Let's do hahaaha

Mippy

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #631 on: February 21, 2011, 09:49:10 AM »
To reply to Ginny's post:
His wife wouldn't be too happy to see him,

I think that's a misdirection by an angry suitor, not a fact about how Penelope would feel.
There is a large amount of tension here about what Penelope is up to, especially keeping in mind that the Homeric listeners would already know the end of the tale, wouldn't they?

We, the modern readers, do not yet know, in theory, how Penelope would feel if her husband showed up after so many years.  Were the passage of years felt differently by ancient people?  
We can hardly walk in their footsteps, as we are annoyed if an Internet page takes more than a few seconds to update.  
The big hint that Penelope does want to put off the suitors for years and years is the famous weaving and unraveling at night, isn't it?
quot libros, quam breve tempus

sandyrose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #632 on: February 21, 2011, 04:32:52 PM »
In the Introduction to the revised Rieu translation, Peter Jones says.....Homer does not precisely record for us....the moment when the suitors invade the house.  ....One reason must be that Homer is interested primarily in the consequences of their intrusion, because this is what makes the return of Odysseus so urgent.  ....... and Homer does not explain why everyone acquiesced in it. 

What in particular, was Laertes doing? Why did not Mentor summon help?

Homer suppresses these questions because it is not in his interest to have them asked.  In particular, he has seen what a rich and complex situation can be created in Ithaca by thrusting the growing Telemachus into the limelight,

and this requires that Odysseus' father Laertes, whom one would expect in normal circumstances to take over when his son left for Troy, be shunted quietly off the stage.

Also in Peter Jones' introduction...During the period that Odysseus has been away, his mother Anticleia has died; Ctimene has left to be married; Eumaneus has been sent out to a country estate; and his father Laertes has retired to the country in grief -- (shunted quietly off the stage :) )

And now I must go out and shovel snow...Our Goddess of February weather, winterstorm Dana, has dumped over a foot of snow on us and it is still snowing.
 

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #633 on: February 21, 2011, 06:03:13 PM »
"I also think the whole thing is kind of Shakespearean"

Funny you say that, because I had exactly the same thought, just from reading Lombardo, the most modern of the translations. It made me glad I was reading it, and moved me.

have we pinned down what that "Shakespearean  "quality is? Do we know if Shakespeare was familiar with Homer?

I took the remarkabout Penelope not being too happy to see him to mean because she would have to watch them kill him.

Good point about Athena having to do everything for Telemachus. The whole sequence in Books I and II doesn't make sense: telemachus calls a meeting one day (in book I) to tell them that he's going to call a meeting the next day (which he does in Book II). What was the point of the first meeting? I felt like I was back working in theGovernment! ;)

The whole situation doesn't quite make sense to me, as several of you have said. All the people who could have resolved it (Laertes, P's father. the townspeople) are kept offscene. Oh well, it makes good drama.

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #634 on: February 21, 2011, 06:07:29 PM »
The suppositions about matrilineal descent and the worship of goddesses is very interesting, and makes a lot of sense.I would like to read "When God Was a Woman".

I got confused, and only read Book II for today -- off to read Book III. Want to see how Telemachus does away from home. Will Athena still tell him every move to make?

Roxania

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #635 on: February 21, 2011, 06:16:53 PM »
1.  That speech just sounded to me like Penelope wouldn't be too keen to see Odysseus if the suitors ganged up on him and brutally murdered him--a none-too-veiled threat.  The sort of thing the Godfather would say.

2.  I'm a little confused about the whole possibility of sending Penelope back to her father's house.

In Book I, it sounds as though it's Penelope's choice, since Athena tells Telemachus (Lombardo, line 294 ff):

Your mother--if in her heart she wants to marry--
Goes back to her powerful father's house.
Her kinfolk and he can arrange the marriage,
And the large dowry that should go with his daughter.

In Book II, line 56 ff., Telemachus says of the suitors:

They shrink
From going to her father Icarius' house
So that he could arrange his daughter's dowry
And give her away to the man he likes best.

In this speech, it sounds as though Telemachus is criticizing the suitors for not following a traditional procedure, in which THEY would go to her father and ask for her hand.

But then, in lines 144 ff., Telemachus says:

It would not be fair
If I had to pay a great price to Icarius,
As I would if I sent my mother back to him
On my own initiative.  And the spirits would send me
Other evils, for my mother would curse me
As she left the house, and call on the Furies. . .

So it sounds like sending Mom to her father's house really isn't an option.  Penelope can go of her own free will, the suitors can go and ask for her hand, but poor Telemachus--the guy that everyone keeps telling to send his mother away--is the one guy who really can't afford to do it.  (And don't we all wish we could have called in the Furies when our kids were teenagers!)

I also thought the speech by Antinous about this was telling (lines 123 ff.):

Send your mother away with orders to marry
Whichever man her father likes best.
But if she goes on like this much longer,
Torturing us with all she knows and has,
All the gifts Athena has given her,
Her talent for handiwork, her good sense,
Her cleverness--all off which go far beyond
That of any of the heroines of old,
Tyro or Alcmene or garlanded Mycene,
Not one of whom had a mind like Penelope's,
Even though now she is not thinking straight--
We will continue to eat you out of house and home. . .

So Penelope is yet another member of this family that Athena is really keen on.  And despite the fact that Athena has bestowed these amazing intellectual gifts upon her, this thug of a suitor still feels entitled to declare that "now she is not thinking straight."  The condescension!  The sheer nerve!  How would he know?

3.  Lines 159-161:

But I will pray to the gods eternal
That Zeus grant me requital:  Death for you
Here in my house.  With no compensation.

This is an exact repetition of Book I, lines 399-401.  

Telemachus does seem concerned about the likelihood of having to fork out money for one thing or another.  Though here I think he means to emphasize that killing the suitors would be just, so no compensation would be needed.  I don't remember how Fagles translated it (a disadvantage of audiobooks), but I really like the rhythm of "Death for you.  Here in my house.  With no compensation."  It sounds almost like a knell tolling.


Roxania

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #636 on: February 21, 2011, 06:24:58 PM »
Do we know if Shakespeare was familiar with Homer?

Well, he wrote "Troilus and Cressida," set during the Trojan War, in which "Ulysses" plays a minor part.  But we don't know much about Shakespeare's education, apart from the fact that he attended school in Stratford.  He spent seven years in London, during which we have no idea what he was doing, so it's conceivable that he studied further. 

Ben Jonson famously remarked that Shakespeare knew "small Latin and less Greek."  Given the sheer number of words that Shakespeare coined from Latin roots, he may have been being facetious.

JudeS

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #637 on: February 21, 2011, 06:33:16 PM »

Roxania

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #638 on: February 21, 2011, 06:36:26 PM »
Jude, I can't see whatever you posted.  Flickr says it's private and not open to everyone.

JudeS

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #639 on: February 21, 2011, 06:39:29 PM »
fOR THE GENEALOGY OF THE rOYAL hOUSE OF ODYSSEUS CLICK ON THE LINK IN THE POST ABOVE THIS. 

Sorry this is so messy but I tried several ways to get this link up so we could have it to refer to in front of us. 
This genealogy appears on page 497 0f Fagels translation. Perhaps one of you who has Fagels knows a way to get this page onto this site.