Plutarch--October Classics Book Club

[PatH]

Plutarch's Lives

Plutarch at the Museum of Delphi, Greece.

Ruins of the temple of Apollo at Delphi, where Plutarch was a priest

The readers have spoken and our next read October 1 will be: Plutarch (c.46 A.D.- c. 120 A.D.) in his famous "Lives" or Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans; also called Parallel Lives.


     Schedule:

     Oct. 1-?: Pompey

     Oct. ?:  Anthony

     Oct. ?: Alcibiades, Coriolanus and comparison

     Oct. ?: Demosthenes, Cicero and comparison

     ?:  Windup

Pompey the Great

Questions for Week I: Pompey:

1. Someone once saidthat everyone wants either money, fame, or power. Which of these was most important to Pompey? What avenues were open to Romans to acheive these goals? Does this differ from modern society?

2. If Plutarch wrote these lives as moral lessons for the young, what do you feel is his moral assessment of Pompey? What is yours?

3. In a period where there was almost no threat to the Roman Empire from the outside, there was almost constant war. Other than reasons already given , what do you think are the reasons for this? Are there any parallels in modern times?

4. How is the US government based on the Roman Republic. What does Pompey's life tell us about how that Republic worked in practice? How is that different from the way ours works (or is it)? Could our Republic be ended at one stroke as the Roman's was?

5. What does Pompey's life tell us about the role of women in Patrician Roman society?

Discussion Leaders: JoanK and  PatH

Clough Translation-Roshanarose's Link

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[PatH]

roshanarose, when I was reading the Iliad, a friend suggested I really should learn the ancient Greek; he claimed it would be easy, since the vocabulary was quite small.  I knew there had to be a catch to that one.  Now I know what it was.

[Babi]

ROSHANA, thank you. Now I understand the old saying, "The Greeks have a word for it." It
seems they actually did!
   What of this story that a man named Vindius was killed by some Picentines for commenting
about Pompey, that he was “come from the school-room to put himself at the head
of the people..”   I can’t help wondering how reliable that story is.  It seems a rather extreme
reaction to a mild put-down.  If it did happen,  I would have to wonder if the killers had been
encouraged to act. 
      Certainly Pompey was masterful at military strategy,  and courageous in battle.  It’s easy
to see why his men would love him.  And why wouldn’t Sylla love a man who presented him
with a substantial army, well fitted out and armed, and with a record of successful battles
behind them.   The title of “Imperator”....which I understand means ‘Commander’...is a small
price to pay for a gift like that.
   

[JudeS]

Money, Fame or Power?
Well first Pompey became wealthy, then he became famous because of his personality and brilliance on the battlefield, then he went after Power.
Thus this is not an either or question but rather a developmental one.He couldn't acheive power without fame and wealth.
Was this a "trick question"?
Along with all these accomplishments Pompey had numerous wives and concubines. Although Plutarch says here and there that  he was "not as bad as some of the powerfull men".
Pompey wasn't all money, fame, power and sex. He also tried to improve the lives of his fellow countrymen.  The building of the huge theatre and arena struck me as a "Bill Gates moment" in the narrative (even if  Pmpey perhaps had an ulterior motive).

[JoanK]

JUDE: "Was this a "trick question"?" Not at all. Most mere mortals specialize in one or another (or none, in my case). Plutarch is impressed at how modestly Pompey lives compared to others in his circumstance, and that, at first, he is not interested in being consul.

I saw something interesting on an Intro to Art class given on TV by the local college. The instructor credited Rome with being the first society interested in portrature. As opposed to the idealized sculptures of the Grreks, if you look at the bust of Pompey, it looks like a real person in his middle age that you would recognize if you met him. Prettified, no doubt, but real.

[JudeS]

I read a number of articles (from Wiki) on marriage in Rome.
One interesting fact stuck with me more than others: A Patrician woman , after she had borne three living children , could participate in business or affairs outside the home.  A lower class woman could do the same after bearing four living children.

In other words once a woman had done her duty to her husband and to the state (or Army) she could find other things to do.
It was not clear what professions were open to women. Market stalls was one and weaving  was another  (perhaps designing togas?).
Woman couldn't be soldiers or farmers or teachers. Though it seems wealthy, well educated women often taught their own children whatever they themselves had learned.
Most patrician women married around age 15 while poorer women somewhat later at about 20. Divorce and remarriage was accepted. With all those men dieing in battle there surely must have been a glut of widows. Almost no woman married for the first time  after the age of 30.
Beauty mattered but connections mattered more among the wealthy. Marriage for love  was rare but occasionally occurred.

I don't think I would have wanted to live in those times.

[PatH]

Has anybody been keeping track of Pompey's wives?  I kind of lost count after a while.  It seems to be accepted to divorce one wife so you could marry another, including, in Pompey's case, a woman in an advanced state of pregnancy.

[Frybabe]

Yes, Jude, and at one point Roman women were given medals and honored for having three children. I forget who instituted that practice, but it was an attempt to increase the population.

I don't know about the rest of you, but my Plutarch is a little hard to get through. It seems I am having trouble keeping the thread of sentences that are extremely long with lots of commas interspersed. That never used to bother me. I intend on looking at the Roshanarose's online version when I have a minute.

[PatH]

Frybabe, I found the same thing,especially at first. But as the chapter went on, it got better, as I learned when to tease things out and when just to get the general drift.  Also, the plot gets simpler, and maybe the sentences do too, though it's never easy.  But by the end, I was reading it in big chunks and was really interested.  I've already forgot a lot though, I'm skimming over it again as we talk about different parts.

There aren't a lot of translations out there.  You may be reading the same one as Roshanarose's.  I certainly am.

[roshanarose]

PatH - Learning Ancient Greek in order to just read the Iliad would be a foolish endeavour unless one was a monk or a bored academic.  Did the person who suggested that know anything about Greek at all?  Both Modern and Ancient Greek have very rich vocabularies.  Take a look at the Greek dictionaries.

I haven't spotted any Greek versions of Plutarch online.  It would be good to know if there are any just for reference, if required on here.

[ginny]

For my part, I find the death of Pompey the Great and the events leading up to it almost unbelievably poignant. And so memorable, you never forget them.

Starting with Cornelia's lamentation to Pompey, before you married me you had 500 ships now it's my fault, I have been decreed to bring about the ruin of Pompey.

And his answer to her: "It behooves us, who are mortals born, to endure these events, and to try fortune yet again; neither is it any less possible to recover our former state than it was to fall from that into this."

Think of all the formerly famous and rich men of our own age who fell. Just in the last year. Does Pompey deserve this? Has he cheated hundreds of people of their money?  IS this Pompey's fault? He says  it's the Fates, it's Fortune. I tempted fortune and now I have to endure. He's not blaming anybody. He's steadfastly "just keeping swimming."

He's sanguine about it.

And brave.

And what's the result?

Probably one of the most poignant scenes of antiquity: the formerly famous great general of 500 ships now in a  rowboat approaching the shore of Egypt where he does hope to find help, with his wife and children watching:

Nearing the shore and seeing it not covered by a royal welcome but crowded with soldiers. Seeing the few fishing boats approaching in welcome instead of what he expected or hoped for, a Royal ship.  Even if he wanted to turn back now he could not, and he will not give them an excuse for turning on him. Imagine Cornelia's distress at seeing this, she obviously loves him. She is lamenting his death as he says goodbye because she sees what is coming.

"I am not mistaken, surely, in believing you to have been my former fellow soldier."  He reaches out and when he only gets a nod, just keeps swimming, reading over his address to the boy king. He steadfastly keeps up hope when possibly a lesser man would have turned back.

What, ultimately, I wonder, does his death say about him? And about all men.

And he, too, just like Caesar, took up his robe about his face, and "neither saying nor doing anything unworthy of himself, only groaning a little, endured the wounds they gave him."

And died in his 59th year, the day after his birthday.

What a privilege it is to be able to read such a thing and to enter into the last minutes and hours of a great man's life.

Why, do you suppose, Caesar cried when he received Pompey's seal?

What a pitiful end, and how Philip gathered up the remains, wrapping it in his own shirt, finding some pieces of fishing boat, and making a funeral pyre with one of the old soldiers who considered it an honor to help.

Obsequies were extremely important to the Romans.  For Pompey's remains to lie unheralded in death was the worst insult. Did Pompey deserve it?

Is the moral of this story "Sic transit gloria mundi:" (known today often as "sic transit...") Thus passes the glory of the world?  Lo, how the mighty have fallen?

Did Pompey deserve this? Why did  Caesar cry? We don't hear of too many instances of Caesar crying, this poignant scene 2000 years later makes me almost want to cry.

And what happened to Cleopatra's brother the boy king Ptolemy? AND the main adviser  Theodotus?

The stories of the fall of the mighty continue to fascinate us in 2011 and this is one of the most poignant in history, right up there with Cicero, Caesar, Crassus and many more.  What's the lesson we need to learn from it?

Does it make a difference how a man dies?

[Babi]

 Oh, dear, you are all seemingly at the end, and I'm still making notes from the middle.  I don't
know whether to post them or not.

   What are we to think of Pompey’s response to the Mamertines who objected to his jurisdiction
over their courts?  “What! will you never cease prating of laws to us that swords by our sides?”
Is he an advocate of ‘might makes right’?  Or is it a simple, ‘I have the upper hand; I’ll do as I
d--- well please.’  Which of course is every tyrants viewpoint.   And Pompey is a humanitarian tyrant, right?
    In dealing with the Sylla’s particular enemies, Plutarch sees Pompey as being under a necessity to demonstrate severity, but that elsewhere he acted with clemency as far as possible.
I am seeing a man who is practical where political necessities are involved.  He won’t alienate
powerful allies.  But where he can act mercifully, he will.  I was impressed with the story of
Sthenis, who took upon himself the blame for his city’s support of Pompey’s opponents.
Pompey was so impressed by the man’s courage and honorable behavior, he pardoned both
him and his people.  I haven’t read anything about Pompey that earns my respect and liking more.

  JUDE, from what I've read of Roman history, the building of arenas and theatres was a
way for the wealthy to obtain the backing of the populace. They wanted to be entertained...free of charge.

[EvelynMC]

PatH

Pompey's wives.  He had five.

1st - Anistisia
2nd - Aemilia Scaura (Sulla's stepdaughter)
3rd - Mucia Tertia (whom he divorced for adultery, according to Cicero's letters)
4th - Julia (Caesar's daughter)
5th - Cornelia Metella (daughter Metellus Scipio)

My source is New World Encyclopedia.  I just googled Pompey and that's what I got.

Evelyn

[PatH]

Oh, dear, you are all seemingly at the end, and I'm still making notes from the middle.  I don't
know whether to post them or not.

YES, POST THEM.  In the discussion, we haven't even reached the middle, and I bet that half of us haven't yet finished reading the chapter.  We want to say everything we think of about any section we want.  Post things whenever you want.

[JoanK]

BABI: "I am seeing a man who is practical where political necessities are involved.  He won’t alienate
powerful allies.  But where he can act mercifully, he will,"

That sounds right to me. What do the rest of you think?

GINNY: that brought tears to my eyes. Yes, now I see why you wanted to read about this man.

[JoanK]

OK. After reading about all these rebellions, I'm feeling rebellious, too. We all voted to read Antixerces, next. the problem is, it involves a whole new time and casdt of chaaracters, just as we're finally getting used to these. And I've started it, and frankly, it doesn't "float my boat" as a friend used to say.

I suggest instead we read Anthony next. It has the story of him and cleopatra (don't you want to know how she practiced with the asps?) and takes up the careers of some of the people we've already met.

Could I have a vote for how you all feel about that? 

[PatH]

BABI: "I am seeing a man who is practical where political necessities are involved.  He won’t alienate
powerful allies.  But where he can act mercifully, he will,"

That sounds right to me. What do the rest of you think?

Yes.  Look at the way he treated the captive pirates; he couldn't turn them loose to go back to pirating, but he didn't want to kill them, so he settled them in some sparsely populated towns, turning them into farmers.  A lot more trouble than just executing them.

[EvelynMC]

JoanK,

Anthony is okay with me.

Evelyn

[ginny]

Oh I am SO sorry. I noted with some anxiety this morning that today is the 5th and Pompey only goes thru the 7th and I was so afraid I'd miss him entirely and felt really guilty, just don't read my post above until you're ready to talk or read about the end!!

 I am sorry!

[roshanarose]

Antony next seems a good idea, although I will be away most of next week.  I am going to the glitzy Gold Coast for a couple of days. 

I haven't been there for years and am interested in seeing how it has changed.  I will catch up when I get back.  Although on the 17th I am having seven teeth pulled by a maxillo facial surgeon.  Not looking forward to it but it has to be done.

[PatH]

Goodness, roshanarose, what an ordeal.  I hope it goes well.

[roshanarose]

Thanks PatH - I feel happier because my darling daughter will drive me to aforesaid surgeon and back home again.  It is a result of osteoporosis.  One of the teeth is directly below the sinus, that is why a surgeon has to treat me.  What it costs is $1,520.75 but all that will be refunded by Medicare.  I don't like the idea of paying for pain.

[kidsal]

Reminds me of Homer with the thousands of people in the army.  How could they afford to have so many people off to the wars. Who took care of the farms?  Did they fight and then go home to plant?  
Battle between Caesar and Pompey:  "The pick of the manhood and power of a single city was here clashing in internal conflict, with members of the same families bearing arms against one another, brothers arrayed against brothers, all under the same standards.

"He never had any extra-marital affairs ..."  "This is something which women seem to have found very attractive..."

[PatH]

Reminds me of Homer with the thousands of people in the army.  How could they afford to have so many people off to the wars. Who took care of the farms?  Did they fight and then go home to plant?  

I think that was a real problem.  Even if wars had an off button for planting time, you couldn't march all the way back from northern Gaul in time.  Rome's economy seems to have been based on getting wealth from conquest rather than production, but you still need grain from somewhere.

Soldiers were indeed also farmers.  One of Pompey's demands when he came back from his Eastern campaign was farmland for his soldiers.

[PatH]

I like JoanKs suggestion to do Anthony next.  I feel like I'm finally beginning to get some of the people and politics of this time through my thick head, and I wouldn't mind working at it a bit more.

Please, everyone, tell us what you want.  We want to do what everyone wants.

[PatH]

EvelynMC, thanks for the list of wives.

"He never had any extra-marital affairs ..."  "This is something which women seem to have found very attractive..."

Some of the marriages seem very loving, especially the last two, Julia and Cornelia.

[ginny]

I'm ok with Antony, we could do a real Roman immersion now that we are learning the background. Sometimes the Romans did exaggerate the numbers in combat,  but usually of the opposition, so they looked even more magnificent to themselves. It's hard to get an accurate count of the opposition, they knew exactly how many were in their own fields, however.

It might be fun to research the composition of their armies, it's quite interesting. At the time however the Romans were a fighting machine unequaled by anybody else.

But it's the MAN to me who shines through, and tomorrow is our last day scheduled with Pompey, are you proposing extending it?

RR, that sounds traumatic, I hope that it goes well and you make a fast recovery. 4 teeth are the most I've had extracted at once (wisdom teeth). Good luck!

[Babi]

 Try to look at it this way, ROSHANA. You're not paying for the pain; you're paying to
avoid what could happen otherwise. We recently ran into a similar problem with the car;
that is, paying too much to resolve a problem that could have been resolved much earlier
and much cheaper.

 I'm glad there were at least two of his marriages that were loving, as the earlier
ones seemed purely political. It gives us an answer to Question #5 as to how women
were regarded. Obviously, they were trade goods..offered like a sack of grain to seal
a bargain or gain an ally. I was absolutely horrified when Aemilia was torn from from
her husband, pregnant, and forced into a marriage with Pompey. How could her father do
that to his daughter?  Did he hate her?  Under those circumstances, I'm not surprised
she did not survive the birth of the child.

[PatH]

Kidsal and Babi, you were two of the three votes for Artaxerxes.  How do you feel about switching to Anthony?

[PatH]

Babi, it would be interesting to know what Pompey felt about Aemilia's death.  He was heartbroken when Julia died, but he was besotted with her.  He hardly knew Amelia.  Did he feel sad or guilty?  I guess we'll never know.

[Mippy]

Good morning, friends and a special Hi to Ginny!
I'm supposed to be packing for our semi-annual migration, like the birdies, as this Sunday we head south to FL.  So instead I started reading the Pompey section, thanks for the link, on my PC.   As much as I love my Kindle, it's easier to read on my laptop, this time.
   
I'm so glad someone posted the list of the wives of Pompey.   There's a wonderful fictional account of the marriage of Julia, Caesar's daughter, to P. in the book by Colleen McCullough, one of the 6 vols. on Roman history.  (at other house, so cannot say which vol).   According to the fictional version, Julia fell in love with Pompey when she was a mere teen, like girls nowadays fall for singers or sports stars.   So when her father told her about her impending engagement, she was delighted!   As you may know, patrician girls had no choice whatsoever about whom they'd marry; the father made the choice in every case I've heard of.  So it was a marriage with love, and then, alas, Julia died in childbirth.   Apparently Caesar was away in Gaul on the battlefield and could not return to Rome in time for her funeral.

If anyone has corrections to the above, do post!  This is all from memory, as I've been reading historical fiction about Romans and Greeks for decades!  Never had time to study either Latin or history in college, so making up for it now!

[PatH]

It looks like we're just finally getting to the meat of things here.  How about we keep on with Pompey for a few extra days until we're ready to move on?

[PatH]

Are we going to do Anthony instead of Artaxerxes?  So far, several ayes and no nays.  JoanK says Anthony is easier reading than either Artaxerxes or Pompey.

[JoanK]

MIPPY: HI, HI. Great to see you here!

So you migrate with our beloved birds. Good for you. Looking for ward to hearing from you when you're settled.

Yes, let's extend the diwscussion for a few days, until we feel we're ready to move on. A section a week may have been too ambitious.

I haven't heard from many of you, but those who have spoken agree that to stick with the Romans for awhile makes sense. So let's plan on Antony (I learned him as Mark Anthony) next. There's a lot of interesting story there, and we get to see some of the same characters some years later.

We are skipping Julius Ceasar. You probably all remember that he became emporor, ending the republic, and was killed in the Senate (on the Ides of March) by a conspiracy that included cassius and Brutus (the son of Pompey's brutus) after about a year. Antony's story starts after that.

[EvelynMC]

The book Mippy was referring to was Caesar's Women by Colleen McCullough.  It's a paperback version from 1996.  I can no longer read such small print but I still hang on to it.

Evelyn

[JoanK]

Can you imagine what it must have been like to live in such a time, with constant wars and political change? here is Virgil, writing a little later, but things haven't gotten any better, maybe even worse:

(here, Mars is the god of War, as well as the red planet).

From Georgics I

I feel the dread,
And the sun burns me, burns like a fever.
The world is full of war, and at home, crime
resembles a war. Men flock to the city
leaving their fields to weeds, their tools to rust.
Plowshares now are beaten into swords.
It's bad in Asia, bad in Europe, bad...
No treaties hold, no laws hold, nothing
but Mars, blood red ... he holds it all,
hurtling through the sky in his chariot.
I feel those wheels rumble. I feel the sway
of speed. The horses are mad and running faster.
they ought to check. They ought to answer the reins.
There ought to be reins.

                                    But there are none.
                                                        

(tr. David R. Slavitt)

[PatH]

In my case, rereading the chapter has really paid off.  Here's one thing that didn't sink in the first time.

Pompey started off with increasingly impressive victories in Spain and elsewhere, and now he was going to be used against a crucial enemy--the pirates.  Pirates had gotten control of all the Mediterranean, boxing the Romans in at all their ports.  A law was passed giving Pompey the resources to fight this.  Look what he got; absolute power and authority in all the seas within the pillars of Hercules (the whole Mediterranean) and in the adjacent mainland for the space of 400 furlongs from the sea(that's most of the territory anyone cared about), power to take what money he wanted from the treasury, 200 ships (later raised to 500), power to press soldiers and seamen (later raised to 120,000 infantry and 5000 horse) and some other stuff.

What a lot of power.  No wonder Caesar had to deal with him in some way, first by alliance in the triumvirate, and later turning against him.

[JudeS]

I'm all for Alexsander next.  Seems a logical transition.

I read somewhere, that the Romans  went to war so much because that was the main way they got their wealth-especially gold.  Each kingdom, or Pirate group they conquered was a way of enriching themselves, their men and their city.

I also read that soldiers were promised farming land on their return home but this was not always carried out in an honest way by their commanders.

If you think the Romans were warlike .the Nabatim tribe that lived in what is now known as Petra in Jordan made their living by attacking caravans that passed through their valley.  If one of their members grew a blade of grass or a flower, let alone , crops , they were put to death.  This ensured that the tribe would continue to live by plunder alone. In Petra all the homes are cut into the red mountains doing away with the need for building materials , builders or slaves.

[PatH]

So those beautiful rose-colored classical buildings have a ruddy history.  I'm not surprised.  Rome lived by plunder too.  I'd love to see a chart of flow of grain from production to consumption.  I think that though grain production was always a problem, the Romans produced most of the food they needed, but I don't really know.  For sure, the luxuries came from plunder.

I also read that soldiers were promised farming land on their return home but this was not always carried out in an honest way by their commanders.

That's another example of Pompey's quality.  He made a big deal of insisting his troops got their land.

[roshanarose]

If you want to see Petra on film rent Mr Speilberg's "Raiders of the Lost Ark". 

Babi - You always give such good advice.  I would have had to have the work done anyway.  I am just a whinger 

I am interested in Artaxerxes because he gave Themistokles a haven after he (Themistokles) was ostracised from Athens.  One of my favourite poems by Cavafy "The Satrapy" is about that topic.  So from a selfish point of view I would like to see Artaxerxes included.  After all, the great men of history weren't just Greek and Roman.