Author Topic: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club  (Read 62226 times)

Gumtree

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #80 on: September 23, 2011, 03:21:02 PM »
Plutarch's Lives



Plutarch at the Museum of Delphi, Greece.


The readers have spoken and our next read October 1 will be:
Plutarch (c.46 A.D.- c. 120 A.D.) in his famous "Lives" or Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans; also called Parallel Lives.


     Schedule:

     Oct. 1-?: Pompey

     Oct. ?:  Anthony

     Oct. ?: Alcibiades, Coriolanus and comparison

     Oct. ?: Demosthenes, Cicero and comparison

     ?:  Windup

Questions for Week I: Pompey:

1. Someone once saidthat everyone wants either money, fame, or power. Which of these was most important to Pompey? What avenues were open to Romans to acheive these goals? Does this differe from modern society?

2. If Plutarch wrote these lives as moral lessons for the young, what do you feel is his moral assessment of Pompey? What is yours?

3. In a period where there was almost no threat to the Roman Empire from the outside, there was almost constant war. Other than reasons already given , what do you think are the reasons for this? Are there any parallels in modern times?

4. How is the US government based on the Roman Republic. What does Pompey's life tell us about how that Republic worked in practice? How is that different from the way ours works (or is it)? Could our Republic be ended at one stroke as the Roman's was?

5. What does Pompey's life tell us about the role of women in Patrician Roman society?



Ruins of the temple of Apollo at Delphi, where Plutarch was a priest

Discussion Leaders: JoanK and  PatH


Clough Translation-Roshanarose's Link

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Weird - I agree - but how interesting:
Was it a digitally printed copy - that sometimes causes problems with letters

Quote
Paulianus allures us that his vilage was homely-, but at the fame time declares,that inp.i. it of li e andUrc- igth no man lit Feloponnelus exceeded him.

-Pausianus assures us that his visage was homely, but at the same time declares that - the next part defeats me - no man but Feloponnelus exceeded him.

H'mm such fun!  who was Feloponnelus?







Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #81 on: September 23, 2011, 04:32:21 PM »
Good grief, Jude, what a bummer!  Since there seems to be a pattern of writing Ls in place of some of the Ss, I'm guessing that Feloponnelus is Peloponnesus.  My index doesn't have Pausianus, but it does have a Pausanias.  But none of the references are anything like this passage.  Anyway, you're trying to read biography, not play at cryptography.

JoanK

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #82 on: September 24, 2011, 02:58:32 PM »
One eek til the start of our discussion. I think we will need some background before we tackle Pompey: I'll get that up before the first.

PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #83 on: September 24, 2011, 03:45:37 PM »
Jude's problem leads me to wonder: is anyone missing some of the lives we picked?  My single book doesn't give the divisions into 3 volumes.  Pompey is on page 739 out of 1300, so he's probably in volume 2, but Artaxerxes is practically the last one, and Demosthenes and Cicero are near the end too.  Alcibiades is close to the beginning.

Does anyone have a problem?



JudeS

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #84 on: September 24, 2011, 03:50:02 PM »
Sent the book back to Amazon with many snarky comments. First time I've ever done that.

I can download the chapters from the Gutenberg Site.  Lots of paper but still cheaper and easier to read than the monster I received.

PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #85 on: September 24, 2011, 04:04:53 PM »
Jude, they deserve every snarky comment you can think of.  Is Pompey in volume 2?

Frybabe

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #86 on: September 24, 2011, 06:09:13 PM »
PatH, the volume I downloaded from Amazon (which said it was complete) does not have the comparison chapters. The freebie from Gutenberg does, but it doesn't have an active link TOC. George, to the rescue, suggested (mind you he doesn't have a Kindle) that I use the find feature to get to the appropriate chapters faster. Duh!  :P  He knows me only too well. If there is a long way or difficult way to do things, that is what I think of first. (My excuse for not thinking of it myself)

Oh, that reminds me. Did Plutarch actually make the comparisons or did the translator?

PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #87 on: September 24, 2011, 08:50:59 PM »
Frybabe, the comparisons are Plutarch's.  If you have a Kindle, JoanK is the authority on TOCs.  She paid a whopping 95 cents to get a version with an active TOC.  We aren't doing any comparisons until week 3, so that will give you a chance to sort things out.

Frybabe

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #88 on: September 24, 2011, 09:23:20 PM »
PatH, thanks. When I originally read Plutarch, there weren't any comparison chapters either. In fact, I got two books, one for Roman and one for Greek and, if I remember correctly, they only had 7 or 10 in each. Anyway, the one I got from Amazon was titled Plutarch's Lives Complete in One Volume and was translated by George Long, Aubrey Stewart and Hugh Clough. I got it for $1.99. The contents begin with the regular preface, then a Preface to the Civil Wars of Rome and then the Life of Plutarch. Afterwards it goes on to the individual lives. I thought the preface to the Civil Wars and the bio of Plutarch himself was nice. That's why I got it, but I forgot to check to see if the comparisons where there. Odd that they would call this "complete in one volume" and then leave out the comparisons.

JoanK

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #89 on: September 24, 2011, 10:09:08 PM »
And my (kindle) version has the comparisons, but not the nice inttro material. I'll have to shop sme more.

But don't worry, you guys. We're in this together, and we'll get it together.

At this point, I'd like to know who has and doesn't have what. Could you let me know the following:

1. What Volume is each of our selections in?

2. Are you missing Volume 3 with it's selections?

3. Are you missing any comparisons? Or anything?

(If any of the particular selections or comparisons we chose turn out to be a problem, we can just choose something else. It's our discussion. So don't kill yourself trying to get something that's hard to find. Tell us.)


Babi

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #90 on: September 25, 2011, 08:14:05 AM »
 I am fortunate to have all the selections we've chosen in my one, unnumbered volume.  I
have wondered, however, if that may mean my copy is abbreviated and does not have the
full translations.  I do hope I don't find I'm lacking passages that everyone else is reading.
  Only six more days, counting today.  I'm going to be re-reading background on Plutarch, too.
 It's always helpful, isn't it, to know where the writer is 'coming from'?
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

kidsal

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #91 on: September 25, 2011, 10:39:50 AM »
All I have is Pompey. 

JudeS

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #92 on: September 25, 2011, 12:16:04 PM »
I have downloaded Pompey, Artaterxes and Alcibiades and Coriolanus.
Wondered  that the latter is only three pages long while the other two go on for page after page. Also wondered how we can compare two people we haven't met before?

For background I am reading The Way of The Greeks by Edith Hamilton.
Any opinions on this book?

JoanR

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #93 on: September 25, 2011, 02:18:10 PM »
Jude - Something must be amiss!
               Alcibiades  pages 233-262;  Coriolanus  pages 262 -290; the comparison of the two men is page 290-293.
I'm taking that from the big one-vol. edition from Modern Library Giant.  It's the Dryden translation.  I think that Ginny has the same book.  I borrowed this from our library but although it seems pretty heavy for me, I'm ordering my own copy.  I would like to see it split up into a couple of vols. to save weight but after hearing about your problems with multi-volumes, I'm sticking with this big fellow!!  It has everything (I think!)
I also have an Oxford edition of " Plutarch - Roman Lives" translated by Robin Waterfield.  It only has 8 of the "lives" but reads nicely and has some good introductions.  I'll be reading Caesar's "life" for background for Latin class.
Pompey is also in this book - I've looked at it and the style of the translation is of course different from Dryden's - and a bit easier to read.

PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #94 on: September 25, 2011, 02:26:02 PM »
Jude, the two chapters before Comparison of Alcibiades with Coriolanus are Alcibiades, 29 pages, and Coriolanus, 28 pages.  By the time we get to the comparison, we'll have plenty of material.  I guess I should re-word the schedule to avoid ambiguity.

I haven't actually seen The Way of the Greeks, but I've heard of it, and I bet it's excellent background.  I have her Mythology, which I used as a resource in our Iliad and Odyssey discussions.  Although simply told, it's very good, copious, and her love of the material shines through.

PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #95 on: September 25, 2011, 02:37:54 PM »
JoanR, we were posting at the same time.  I have the same book you and Ginny do, identical page numbers.

I think most of the translations were not actually done by Dryden, but by a stable of translators.  Dryden wrote the introduction, and lent the glamor of his name to the project.  I don't know how copious Clough's revisions were.

I found the language a bit daunting at first, but after a few pages I kind of got into the rhythm and spirit of it, and now I'm enjoying it.

JoanK

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #96 on: September 25, 2011, 02:53:01 PM »
OK, so far, only kidsal lacks some Sections. What about the rest of you?

bookad

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #97 on: September 25, 2011, 08:30:57 PM »
is 'comparisons' different than reading info /person in the online
source noted for our group?  I was wondering why one week there was one name then another there was 2; !!
confused, please advise

thanks
Deb
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #98 on: September 25, 2011, 09:47:15 PM »
Deb, it is a bit confusing, especially if you don't have a Table of Contents.  Plutarch made pairs of many of his bios, then compared the two men.  In week 1, we are reading about one person, Pompey.  In week 2, we are reading about one person, Artaxerxes.  In week 3, we are reading the chapter on Alcibiades and the chapter on Coriolanus, and the 3 page comparison of the two men which follows Coriolanus.  In week 4, same sort of thing, Demosthenes, plus Cicero plus the 3 page comparison of the two after Cicero.

If your online version doesn't have the short comparisons, you can probably wing it.

pedln

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #99 on: September 26, 2011, 01:01:04 PM »
PatH, I'm glad you explained that about the comparisons -- they follow the chapters about the "comparisonees."  I've been getting acquainted with moving about the Kindle when you don't have a clickable table of contents.  Fortunately it's much easier to search on the PC where you have a keyboard.  I wonder if I can export my notes and bookmarks to the Kindle itself.

For Pompey, if any Kindle user needs it, he will be found in

  Lives of noble Greeks and Romans at location 16050
  Plutarch's Lives Vol 3  p. 212, location 3160

Artaxerxes in the same book is at location 27337

JudeS

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #100 on: September 26, 2011, 04:38:13 PM »
PatH
Thanks for the explanation.
All is clear now.
Demosthenes and Cicero are in volume three. Will have to figure out a way to get hold of that volume.

bookad

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #101 on: September 26, 2011, 07:54:00 PM »
funny how things work--by the way thanks for the
explaination about the comparisons

-but went to the Barrie library today and found vol1,2, 3 of
Plutarch's Lives--do we know why he chose to compare the people

-initially I thought Pompey was a place...you have a real rookie on your
hands here

Deb
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #102 on: September 26, 2011, 08:34:00 PM »
Actually, Deb, we're all rookies.  Some of the Latin students probably have some background, but I'm working away hard to get the things straight.

I wonder why vol 3 is so hard to get.  My library doesn't have it either, though it has lots of 1 and 2, and a few copies of the whole thing.  Maybe they think you're going to read it in order, and no one will last as far as 3.  ;)

roshanarose

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #103 on: September 26, 2011, 10:34:40 PM »
PatH et al - I have always wondered who "al" was?

I borrowed two Plutarch's from my local library.

FYI - They are "Makers of Rome" by Plutarch which includes a bio of Coriolanus but not Pompey, published by Penguin Classics ISBN 9 780140 441581

and the other:

"Greek Lives" by Plutarch, which includes Solon, Alcibiades and the incomplete Alexander.  Published by Oxford World's Classics ISBN 9 780192 825018.

Pat H - We had a similar situation with the Odyssey, ie having many different copies to read and quote from.  I, personally, thought it made the process of writing about the Odyssey more interesting from a comparative point of view.

I also think it is understandable that some of those who wish to participate, should be confused about books, translations etc.  But we should really just stick to the individuals from Plutarch that we voted for.    

The site that I use and find very useful is

http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/p/plutarch/lives

It has all the bios we have voted for, including the comparisons.  So I figure with two books and this site I am set.

Hope this helps :o




How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

JudeS

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #104 on: September 27, 2011, 01:03:24 AM »
Roshanarose
Thanks for the site you posted. I will use it rather than trollimg around for volume three.

Gumtree

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #105 on: September 27, 2011, 03:58:16 AM »
Me too ! Thanks RR

I really haven't had time to even start searching for the texts and plan on using the online link  in the heading.
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

Frybabe

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #106 on: September 27, 2011, 07:54:24 AM »
Thanks, Roshanarose. I've downloaded it to my computer. I think my Kindle accepts ePub files, if not I have a nifty little program I can try to convert it from ePub to pdf or .azw. So now I will have three sources to read from. Nothing like overkill.

Babi

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #107 on: September 27, 2011, 08:54:02 AM »
BOOKAD,  Plutarch was very much interested in promoting ethics and honor in young people.
He made his comparisons between people who by their behavior demonstrated, in his opinion,
having or lacking these qualities.  It was one reason he thought biographies to be important and worth his time pursuing.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

pedln

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #108 on: September 27, 2011, 10:43:30 AM »
Quote
He made his comparisons between people who by their behavior demonstrated, in his opinion,  having or lacking these qualities.  It was one reason he thought biographies to be important and worth his time pursuing.


Babi, thanks for that.

That reminds me of a friend who's son is in prison, unfortunately for life.  But she has said more than once how books were important to him, and how he wanted to read about people who had made successes of their lives.  I'm going to tell her what you said.  She can't take books to him -- they can only come from a certain source.  I don't know about computer access.

bookad

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #109 on: September 27, 2011, 04:28:19 PM »
thank you Babi
Deb
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

EvelynMC

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #110 on: September 27, 2011, 05:20:24 PM »
I'll be here.

Evelyn

roshanarose

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #111 on: September 27, 2011, 09:42:27 PM »
Welcome EvelynMC.
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #112 on: September 28, 2011, 08:19:41 AM »
Welcome, EvelynMC!  Hope you'll enjoy this.  Are you set up with a translation?

Babi

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #113 on: September 28, 2011, 08:20:14 AM »
 Bless you, EVELYN, we haven't heard from you for ages.  Where have you been?  Pleased to
know you are back.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #114 on: September 28, 2011, 08:44:21 AM »
Online translation glitch.  Since I have the book and hate reading online, I hadn't been reading from that link I posted, but I took a good look at the Pompey chapter today, and it's not all there.  By searching in the help section on the site, I found out that a "glitch", which they are trying to correct, has "truncated" some of the selections.  Grrr.  Would someone with a PC please check for me that this is not just a Mac problem?  The last sentence should say what happened to Pompey's ashes.

I have put a link in the heading to Roshanarose's translation, which is complete, and will remove the old link when I find out it doesn't work for PCs either.

Thanks, Roshanarose.

pedln

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #115 on: September 28, 2011, 11:43:50 AM »
I'm not sure where you were looking, Pat.  I found this with my  Windows PC

The ashes of Pompey were .   .    .   .    .   

Plutarch; Clough, Arthur Hugh (2011-03-30). Plutarch: Lives of the noble Grecians and Romans (Kindle Locations 17333-17334). Kindle Edition.

JudeS

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #116 on: September 28, 2011, 11:43:52 AM »
Pat
I downloaded 19 pages from the Gutenberg site but didn't look at the last page. Now that I have, I see that it stops in the middle of a sentence.  The sentence is:
For he seemed to be under sail in the Euxine Sea with a propsperous gale, and just in.........

And then nothing!
You have a sharp eye Pat.
What should I do to find the ending?

PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #117 on: September 28, 2011, 01:22:03 PM »
Judy, try the new link, to Roshanarose's site.  It's in the heading, marked Roshanarose's link.  That has the whole thing.  I don't know if there are any snags to downloading, since I only checked it online, where it seems to be complete.  In my printed book, the chapter is 58 pages, and by doing the proportions, I calculate the online version is equivalent.

PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #118 on: September 28, 2011, 03:18:30 PM »
When you start reading Pompey, there is a forest of detail about armies, the military situation, and the government.  JoanK worked out some summaries that help a lot in keeping things straight.  Probably the Latin students won't need all this, but I sure did.

Unfortunately, her computer is acting up again, but luckily she sent them to me yesterday, so I'll post them.

PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #119 on: September 28, 2011, 03:23:03 PM »
From JoanK:

The first thing I thought when I read Pompey was WHAT ON EARTH is all this fighting about?

I looked in my copy of Story of Civilization to get a feel for the times when Pompey lived. At that time, Rome ruled all of Italy, and in addition was conquering neighboring areas. There were three areas of tension that an ambitious soldier could use to his advantage to gain wealth, glory and/or power.

First, Rome's wealth depended on capturing new lands, bringing back wealth and slaves to sustain Rome.

Second, Italians outside of Rome were resentful of Rome's power. While they didn't rebel during this period, a Roman who had been expelled from Rome could go to another Roman town and raise an army, promising future favors.

Third, within Rome, itself, the government was supposed to provide a balance between the Patricians (descendents of the oldest families) and the Plebes (all the other citizens). But in fact, the patricians ruled the roost. The Plebes resented this, and if someone wanted to seize (or keep) power in Rome, he could get the backing of the Plebes by promising concessions.

The men  with armies oftened combined these missions. A man might raise an army to go and fight a rebellion, while he was there, going on to conquer new lands for Rome. When he came back to Rome, he was supposed to disband his army and enter Rome in peace. Sometimes that happened, and sometimes he was honored and offered a position of power. But If he had enemies in Rome, another army might be sent out to meet him, with the winner getting the power.

This sort of thing seemed to happen in Pompey's lifetime, not once or twice but again and again. You can't always tell reading Plutarch exactly what's going on, since he assumes we know who all the people are. But I don't think we have to know in detail about each battle, as long as we understand the thrust. A lot of conquering of non-Romans, combined with a lot of power struggles between Romans (indeed between Patricians) with no wider aim than to change which of them was at the top of the heap.

Indeed, although some of these fights involved promises of change to plebes or Italians, in fact, there was no fundemental change involved. These civil wars are not comparable to ours, or to the revolution, say, where fundemental structural changes resulted.