Author Topic: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club  (Read 61990 times)

PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #240 on: October 10, 2011, 08:44:19 PM »
Plutarch's Lives



Plutarch at the Museum of Delphi, Greece.





Ruins of the temple of Apollo at Delphi, where Plutarch was a priest


The readers have spoken and our next read October 1 will be: Plutarch (c.46 A.D.- c. 120 A.D.) in his famous "Lives" or Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans; also called Parallel Lives.


     Schedule:

     Oct. 1-10: Pompey

     Oct. 11- ?:  Antony

     Oct. ?: Alcibiades, Coriolanus and comparison

     Oct. ?: Demosthenes, Cicero and comparison

     ?:  Windup





Antony


Questions for Week 2: Antony

(1). We've discussed Pompey's ambitions: what are Antony's? How do they affect his life?

(2) What evidence do you see that the Roman "republic" is not a republic? If you don't know, what do you think will happen to Rome's system of governance now?

(3) What is your reaction to the scene where the three generals meet, and divide up the Roman Empire (the Second Triumvirate)? How well did that work?

4) Cleopatra is one of the famous women in history. How does her story exemplify women's role? Challenge it? What does it tell us about women's role in Egypt?

(5) Are there any similarities between the role of women in Pompey and Antony's lives? Do you agree with Plutarch that Cleopatra ruined Antony's life? What do you think might have happened to him if he had never met her?

(6) Do you think Plutarch is fair in his assessments of Ptolemy and Antony? In his assessments of Cleopatra and Octavia? What do those assessments tell us about PLUTARCH's character? About his views on women?

(7) What was Cleopatra doing at Actium? Do you think that she panicked? Betrayed Antony? Plotted with Antony?

(8 ) What do you think of Antony and Cleopatra's long preparation for death (the dyers club, the practice on slaves)? Throughout Plutarch, do you think the Roman attitude toward death is the same or different from ours?
  


Discussion Leaders: JoanK and  PatH


Clough Translation-Roshanarose's Link

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roshanarose

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #241 on: October 10, 2011, 09:21:34 PM »
Hot off the Press

The movie "Coriolanus" inspired by Will Shakespeare should be showing in the US any time now.  

Ralph Fiennes (the Thinking Woman's Crumpet :-*) directs and stars as Coriolanus, Gerard Butler (Leonidas in "300") and Brian Cox (Agamemnon in "Troy"and Vanessa Redgrave also star.  Read the right hand sidebar links for some interesting info about setting etc.  Set in War (necessarily) but not any war of Rome.  Temporal and spatial changes big time.  See side bar link Ralph Fiennes' - Full metal Coriolanus.

www.guardian.co.uk/film/2010/mar/11/ralph-fiennes-directs-coriolanus
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

ginny

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #242 on: October 11, 2011, 07:33:47 AM »
Not any war of Rome?  Gosh.

 I look forward to seeing what Fiennes does with it. I still can't watch Ian McKellan's Richard III, he's SOOO MEAN!  

PatH I loved what you did with your summary above, that was splendid and I love the questions, JoanK, in the heading. Really good ones.

I just came in to say how much I am enjoying the Antony sections and how surprised I am at Plutarch's open bias against  "Caesar." (Octavian). It's a super read. I have  never read the whole section, I love it, and  it shows how difficult it is to look anything up in Plutarch, he's got stuff all over everywhere, here we have the so called 2nd triumvirate and the Proscriptions but it's Antony who leaves me gape jawed. I think I'll get out my  Cleopatra with Richard Burton again, he did a better job than I thought. (Of course who else could have played Antony?)

(We might want to say  Antony, not "Anthony.")

I think Plutarch's description beats the movie, tho, so far, but am not through. A super choice!

No last words for Pompey? The scene of Pompey's death is one of the most memorable in history and the way Plutarch writes it is lyrical.  But I still don't know what Pompey  meant by HIS last words to his wife. I really have no clue, why did he quote Sophocles? Did he mean from that point on his life would be changed?   Was he trying to warn her? Of what? Yet he went boldly on. But what choice did he have?  I don't know what he meant.




Babi

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #243 on: October 11, 2011, 09:12:01 AM »
 Hmmm, I've never read 'Coriolanus'. Since I'm interested in seeing the movie,I guess
it's time I read the play first.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #244 on: October 11, 2011, 12:49:35 PM »
His ending was so tragic - I could hardly read the last few pages.
Me too, but it also had an awful fascination such that I couldn't put it down.  You're watching Pompey fall apart before your eyes.  He starts making worse and worse decisions.  He leaves Rome; he gathers an army and navy, but keeps them scattered.  He ignores his own instinct to choose a favorable time and place for battle, giving in to his advisers, making a stand where he is outnumbered, with inexperienced troops.  His conduct of the battle is that of a man who has lost his nerve.

Then, to me the most moving bit of all, he retreats to his tent in shock, so stunned by his realization of what has just happened that he can't even speak.

JoanK

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #245 on: October 11, 2011, 02:41:54 PM »
Here are the questions to think about while we read Antony. They are in the heading as well.


(1). We've discussed Pompey's ambitions: what are Antony's? How do they affect his life?

(2) What evidence do you see that the Roman "republic" is not a republic? If you don't know, what do you think will happen to Rome's system of governance now?

(3) What is your reaction to the scene where the three generals meet, and divide up the Roman Empire (the Second Triumvirate)? How well did that work?

4) Cleopatra is one of the famous women in history. How does her story exemplify women's role? Challenge it? What does it tell us about women's role in Egypt?

(5) Are there any similarities between the role of women in Pompey and Antony's lives? Do you agree with Plutarch that Cleopatra ruined Antony's life? What do you think might have happened to him if he had never met her?

(6) Do you think Plutarch is fair in his assessments of Ptolemy and Antony? In his assessments of Cleopatra and Octavia? What do those assessments tell us about PLUTARCH's character? About his views on women?

(7) What was Cleopatra doing at Actium? Do you think that she panicked? Betrayed Antony? Plotted with Antony?

(8 ) What do you think of Antony and Cleopatra's long preparation for death (the diers club, the practice on slaves)? Throughout Plutarch, do you think the Roman attitude toward death is the same or different from ours?
  

JoanK

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #246 on: October 11, 2011, 02:57:35 PM »
Antony starts tomorrow. it's a much easier read than Pompey. We are already familiar with the society and most of the main characters.

We see also in this what happens to Julius Caesar. It's not always spelled out. But we probably all remember that he marches his army into Rome, declares himself Emporor (the formal end of the Republic) and is murdered a year or so later on the Ides of March, in the Senate by (among others) Cassius and Brutus. We'll find out in Antony what happens to THEM! (See if you can catch a phrase that Shakespeare borrows almost word for word from Plutarch).

JoanK

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #247 on: October 11, 2011, 03:01:06 PM »
I'm trying to think what other background we might need. When we meet Cleopatra, she already has a child by Julius Caesar, so he's been there. Antony is following in his footsteps?

There are various political posts mentioned. A tribune is a member of the other house of their congress, the Tribunal (the equivelant of our House of Representatives) and are supposedly elected by the people.

I found out yesterday that in the US, like in Rome, originally only the House of Representatives was elected by the people. The Senators were (until the 20th century) elected (appointed) by committee. The Senate and House are modeled on the Roman Senate and Tribunal. As, of course is the british Parliament (House of Lords and House of Commons).

Magistrate was another powerful position. I believe that it was the Magistrates that appointed the Senators: I'm not sure.

JudeS

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #248 on: October 11, 2011, 07:23:30 PM »
In te intro by A.H.Clough (1819-1861) to Plutarch's Lives we find this poem which supposedly was found on a statue of Plutarch.

"Charonean Plutarch, to thy deathless praise
Does martial Rome this greatful staue raise,
Because both Greece and she thy fame have shared,
(Their heroes written, and their lives compared).
But thou thyself coudst never write thy own;
Their lives have parallels, but thine has none."


I thought this was a really beautiful pean to Plutarch, who, with more and more interest, I find myself reading.What a project he took on when he wrote these lives and dared to compare them.
How could I have considered myself a well read individual and never read Plutarch before? 
So thanks Joan and all my" fellow travelers" for this site.
 

Mippy

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #249 on: October 12, 2011, 11:56:43 AM »
Joan posted the following summary:
(Julius Caesar) marches his army into Rome, declares himself Emperor (the formal end of the Republic) and is murdered a year or so later on the Ides of March

Goldsworthy in his book Caesar runs this period for almost 50 pages, so I'll try to type in some highlights.   My first point is that when he crossed the Rubicon and entered Rome near the end of July 46, he was not doing so in order to become the emperor.   He had been a vocal supporter of the Republic all his life.

Caesar celebrated four triumphs, over Gaul, Egypt, Asia, and Africa, where he conquered the land of King Juba.  The celebrations lasted from Sep 21 through Oct 2.   Pliny the Younger wrote that Caesar had killed 1,192,000 enemies in his four campaigns;  Goldsworthy questions how that number was calculated.   Caesar gave 5,000 denarii to each of his soldiers, more than a legionary would earn in 16 years of service!

Goldsworthy says that at that time Caesar wanted to be consul for the second time, not dictator or emperor!  He was, however, elected consul in the subsequent years through a 5th term.  It's thus obvious that Caesar had great power, but scholars disagree about his overall aims.  Much criticism of Caesar comes down to us in the publications of Cicero.   Goldsworthy says (p 487) that the majority of the Senate was willing to tolerate Caesar's extraordinary power in order to avoid civil war.

                (stopping here, too much?)
                                              
quot libros, quam breve tempus

PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #250 on: October 12, 2011, 12:49:21 PM »
Not too much at all, Mippy.  The more background we have, of events and motives, the easier it is to understand what we're reading.  This was recent history to Plutarch's audience.

I've been reading some background too.  One book (sorry, I forget which one) said that when Caesar, Pompey and Crassus first hooked up, Caesar wanted the consulate, Pompey wanted the money and land for his troops that he felt was their due, and Crassus wanted some tax fiddle with the eastern lands that I didn't bother to sort out.  Pompey had dismissed his troops, as required by law, so was not in as powerful a position as he might have been.

Mippy, does that fit with what Goldsworthy says?




EvelynMC

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #251 on: October 12, 2011, 12:56:06 PM »
Mippy

Thanks for the interesting info.  No, I don't think it is too much.  I think everything anyone brings here is very helpful to understand the background and what was going on in Rome at that time.

Evelyn

Mippy

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #252 on: October 12, 2011, 12:57:45 PM »
Thanks, PatH and EvelynGoldsworthy (p 254 ff):
In 59, the 2 wealthiest and most influential men in Rome, Pompey and Crassus, had joined to achieve the immediate aims, using Caesar as their tool to overcome opposition that until then had proved too solid.   Pompey had secured his Eastern Settlement, in order to have land for his army veterans, while Crassus had renegotiated the tax-famers' contracts.  The two were satisfied, as was Caesar with his land reform and military command, but only for the moment.  
  
Each had further ambitions for the future.  It had suited each to combine their efforts for a while, permitting a degree of success that none could have managed on his own.   But it was not an alliance built on deep roots of shared ideology or commitment to a common cause.
  
In spite of Caesar's outstanding, recent successes in Gaul, he was clearly the junior partner.  Pompey and Crassus actually disliked each other intensely, and their rivalry was just below the surface, at that time.   No one else in Rome could match Pompey and Crassus in their wealth, fame and auctoritas.
quot libros, quam breve tempus

JoanK

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #253 on: October 12, 2011, 07:46:57 PM »
JUDE: I love that inscription:

"Their lives have parallels but thine has none."

MIPPY: " Goldsworthy says (p 487) that the majority of the Senate was willing to tolerate Caesar's extraordinary power in order to avoid civil war."

Exactly! One of the main things I learned from the discussion in "Story of civilization", reading through many centuries of history in many countries is that this pattern occurs again and again in history. There is a period of chaos or danger. In order to control it, the leader is given extrordinary powers, which he uses wisely to bring about a period of peace and prosperity. However, when he dies, his successors are not as wise, and start using the same piowers for amassment of power and gold. Things go downhill rapidly.

This is exactly what will happen in the years after our story. Octavius (Augustus Caesar) will bring about a "silver" age for Greece, but get even more powers. When he dies, things will really fall apart.


kidsal

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #254 on: October 13, 2011, 05:22:15 AM »
From reading my book "Cleopatra" by Stacy Schiff:
Women in Cleopatra's time made their own marriages, could divorce and get alimony, the house and child support, could loan money, operate barges, serve as priests, own property, introduce lawsuits. 

Cleopatra was funding the war at Actium.  Also acted as interpretor as she spoke several languages.

Found an instance where Shakespeare copied Plutarch's dialogue:  Charmion, Cleopatra's maidservant, in response to Octavian's soldiers remark at death of Cleopatra "A fine deed this Charmion."  Charmion replied "It is indeed most fine, and befitting the descendant of so many kings."

Mippy

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #255 on: October 13, 2011, 06:38:40 AM »
Cleopatra by Stacy Schiff is indeed a fine background source for our Antony discussion, Kidsal/Sally.   I need to locate my copy.

My recollection is that Cleopatra funded a great many of Antony's elaborate schemes in the years after they met.   Her wealth outshone his by orders of magnitude.   Do you recall if women's ability to plan their own marriages was limited to royalty and upper class citizens?  I had thought that lower class women had no rights of their own at all.

No only does Shakespeare use Plutarch as noted, but his play Julius Caesar lifts material from Plutarch.  The famous "friends, Romans, countrymen" speech may not be historically accurate, but it no doubt made many of us today think of Mark Antony as a hero.  My question: do you think Antony was a hero when in the civil war he fought against Octavian?  Comments? 
quot libros, quam breve tempus

ginny

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #256 on: October 13, 2011, 07:33:34 AM »
Great stuff here! My question: do you think Antony was a hero when in the civil war he fought against Octavian?  Comments?


Great question!

I'm not quite there. I'm watching Antony disintegrate. I'm fascinated by his commerce and interaction with the Parthians. In this age of no phones, no internet, no walkie talkies, no means of electronic communication at all, it's amazing how the enemy are  constantly talking to each other.  I am totally caught up in watching him fall.  I love this book and wish it were not so heavy, you can't hold it UP in bed (my copy anyway).

Yet his men still love him. And he's betraying them. He's making very bad decisions and costing lives, PLUTARCH says because of his total infatuation with Cleopatra.

Was it that, I wonder?  It's obvious he's a hard living type of guy. Could it be too much vino? Or was it something else? He deliberately delayed..because of HER! What was the reason again? He's losing respect but they are still holding their admiration for him amidst rumors of defection.

The Romans hated Cleopatra. Here in Plutarch we see some of that sneaking thru but in his own bias, she's at fault.

And my goodness Octavia! Talk about powerful women, look what SHE did, averted a civil war yet, well done, you go girl! A paragon among women as she will prove to be yet after everybody (Antony)  is dead including Cleopatra. I wonder how many of us would do what she did.

And the awful "decimation."  How long one wonders can Antony hold ON to the loyalty of his army? It's clear he was a powerful commander, once. I can't imagine him against Octavian. Roman against Roman.  Just this scene here makes me understand his deep depression after Actium,  how could he even live hearing and picturing the screams of his men as he sailed away from them, literally over them struggling in the water when they as Plutarch says preferred "his good opinion of them to their very lives and being. "

Powerful powerful stuff, I love it. Better than any Real Housewives of anything! Love the description of them kneeling down covering selves with shields like a testudo, tortoise formation and rising up all at once, wonderful stuff.


kidsal

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #257 on: October 13, 2011, 07:59:29 AM »
http://historicmysteries.com/role-of-women-in-ancient-egypt

Discusses role of women throughout Egyptian history.

Babi

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #258 on: October 13, 2011, 09:07:57 AM »
Whatever Plutarch’s ultimate judgment,  it appears he is being as even-handed as he
can.  I freely describes Marc Antony’s  good qualities.  Despite his early association with
disreputable types, he finally left them for Greece and the study of 'eloquence’ (rhetoric?)
and military training.  He “gave proofs of his personal valor and military conduct”,  humanity,
and gallantry.
   He seems to have been a young man who wanted to be liked, who enjoyed popularity and
being ‘one of the boys’.  “What might seem to some very insupportable, his vaunting, his raillery, his drinking in public, sitting down by the men..and eating...off the common soldiers’
tables, made him the delight and pleasure of the army”.   Plutarch refers to his ‘generous
ways’.   
   This popularity, and his speaking skills, stood him in good stead as tribune and augur. He
made an effective representative of the people,  and was able to be most useful to his party.
Nevertheless,  he also showed signs, imo, of immaturity and petulance.  Being commanded
by the consul Lentulus to leave the Senate, because he was effectively thwarting the consul’s
wishes in the matter,  he disguises himself and fleeing to Caesar, has himself a nice tantrum.
His report about the actions of the Consul were true enough, but I  question whether he was
actually in danger of his life.  Still, perhaps he was.

 On the question of early signs that the Republic was no longer existent,  the very fact that a
Consul could order a duly elected Tribune out of the Senate for doing his job is, to me, clear
evidence that the laws of the Republic no longer held.

 I found most interesting Plutarch’s assessment of Caesar’s response, and his motives.  He
accuses Caesar of “unquenchable thirst of empire, and the ....ambition of being the greatest
man in the world, which was impracticable for him, unless Pompey were put down.”  I’ve
always had a better impression of Caesar than that.  He was immensely proud, of course. His
actions following his captivity and ransom by the pirates prove that.  Still.... Thanks for that
summary, MIPPY.  That sounds much more like the true Julius Caesar to me.

   On reading your post, PatH, I couldn't help wondering if 'Crassus' was where the word
crass comes from.  ;)
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanK

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #259 on: October 13, 2011, 03:43:59 PM »
Thank you for that reference to the role of women in Egypt, KIDSAL. According to the reference above (Alfred Jones), it seems that this role varied a lot. At one point the author states that Egypt was unique in that there was no idea of male superiority.  This equality was fragile, and varied through the years. In the time of Cleopatra VII (I hope that's our Cleopatra) she could be a powerful queen, but didn't call herself "Pharoah", a title reserved for men. With the fall of Cleopatra, women's roles became subserviant until the 20th century.

We have to be a little careful. Just as some might falsely assume that because we have a black President, there's no racial predjudice here, having a powerful queen doesn't necessarily mean that ordinary women had control over their lives.

JoanK

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #260 on: October 13, 2011, 04:01:17 PM »
BABI: "On the question of early signs that the Republic was no longer existent,  the very fact that a
Consul could order a duly elected Tribune out of the Senate for doing his job is, to me, clear
evidence that the laws of the Republic no longer held."

Exactly. Can you imagine how Congress or Parliament would function id every time a member lost a vote, they had to flee for their lives?

JudeS

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #261 on: October 13, 2011, 06:59:28 PM »
I checked the list of Plutarchs Lives..The subjects are all male.
Is this a personal bias of Plutarch or is he just reacting to the general attitude toward women as important figures in the history of Rome and Greece?
From what I've read about Plutarch himself , he was a good father and husband. Not one for hanky-panky. So perhaps his strait laced virtuous personality didn't like what went on between Anthony and Cleopatra. No matter Plutarch's personal attitude toward this couple , their romance was obviously deeply felt and there love has become a symbol for lovers throughout the ages.
Cleopatra may have started out as using Antony for political purposes but by the time they had three children together she was deeply enough attached that she was willing to die when he did. In other words ,without Antony life was not worth living.

I don't think Cleopatra was a typical woman or even a typical monarch. First and foremost she was brilliant, mistress of many languages, physically beautiful  and capable of deep love. Growing up among conniving court and royal persons she was not naive or innocent but a person who knew how to use power and the people that weild it.

Because she is so atypical  her name and persona have managed to shine not only among scholars but with anyone who has a basic interest in history and especially in women's history. And of course Shakespeare helped her image quite a bit.
 

Babi

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #262 on: October 14, 2011, 09:19:57 AM »
I was surprised to read that the position of “Master of the Horse”  meant second in power and
authority to the dictator himself.  Why was ‘Master of the Horse’ so prestigious?  Well,
naturally,  I had to find out.  All I could find was the importance of cavalry.  It didn’t really
explain why that title might be given to the most powerful man in Rome in the absence
of the dictator.  Perhaps it was simply that the leader of the cavalry was second only to
the commander of the Army, and trusted by his leader. http://rtw.heavengames.com/history/general/the_history_of_cavalry_infantry_and_ranged_units/index.shtml

   It becomes evident that while Antony shone in the military,  he had no aptitude for the
responsibilities of a more settled office.  His dissolute youth returned more rambunctious
than ever, and soon lost him the favor of even those who had admired him. His soldiers,
reportedly, began to imitate him in his “acts of license and rapacity”.   When Caesar
finally came home he had himself a fine mess to clean up.
  
  I was really amazed that, tho' reversing many of Antony's actions, Caesar was surprisingly mild
with him.  I wonder why he chose to be so patient?  Was it perhaps because he was a relative of
Julia's?   In any case, if turned out to be a wise decision.  According to Plutarch, he was able to
succeed in "curing him (Antony) of a good deal of his folly and extravagnce. He gave up his former
courses, and took a wife, Fulvia"....apparently a strong personality in her own right.
Antony back on the right track
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Mippy

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #263 on: October 14, 2011, 10:08:56 AM »
Good morning!  just a few notes:  
Antony was a cousin of Gaius Julius Caesar, both being members of the Julian family.  Many of the family's girl children were typically named Julia, which can be confusing.                              
As noted more than once in these posts, the Caesar in this reading is Octavian (not Octavius) the great-nephew of Julius Caesar, who later took the name of Augustus.  Octavian was not in Rome when Caesar was killed.
  
Additional supplementary reading is the historical novel by Colleen McCullough:  Antony and Cleopatra.   Although fictional, her scholarship appears to be excellent and she does not distort historical facts, just adds a lot of conversation that an historian could not put in.
   
McCullough (p 54ff) suggests that Cleopatra encouraged Antony to engage in the civil war in order to keep Roman legions from turning to Alexandria and plundering Egypt.   At that time, she was also afraid that there was a Roman plot to kill her son by Julius Caesar, Caesarion. 
quot libros, quam breve tempus

PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #264 on: October 14, 2011, 10:51:59 AM »
He gave up his former
courses, and took a wife, Fulvia"....apparently a strong personality in her own right.
Antony back on the right track
On track for a while at least.

I love the description of Fulvia: "...a woman not born for spinning or housewifery, nor one that could be content with ruling a private husband, but prepared to govern a first magistrate, or give orders to a commander-in-chief.  So that Cleopatra had great obligations to her for having taught Antony to be so good a servant, he coming to her hands tame and broken into entire obedience to the commands of a mistress."

Plutarch can be devastating when he doesn't approve.

EvelynMC

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #265 on: October 14, 2011, 12:55:10 PM »
PatH

I loved that bit about Antony "...he came to her hands tame and broken into obedience to the commands of a mistress."  It made me giggle.  :D

Evelyn

JoanK

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #266 on: October 14, 2011, 03:51:10 PM »
I'm the one guilty of writing OctaviUS instead of OctaviAN. Sorry.

Off to run (the seemingly endless) errands. Back later.
I like this discussion -- there's a lot to think about here.

(I wonder if Antony and Caesar ran errands. I'll bet they had a slave to take care of all that).

PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #267 on: October 14, 2011, 07:47:38 PM »
Found an instance where Shakespeare copied Plutarch's dialogue:  Charmion, Cleopatra's maidservant, in response to Octavian's soldiers remark at death of Cleopatra "A fine deed this Charmion."  Charmion replied "It is indeed most fine, and befitting the descendant of so many kings."
I found another.

Plutarch: "'It is not,' said he (Caesar) 'those well-fed, long-haired men that I fear, but the pale and hungry-looking;' meaning Brutus and Cassius...."

Shakespeare: "Let me have men about me that are fat;
Sleek-headed men and such as sleep o' nights;
Yond' Cassius has a lean and hungry look;
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous."

Frybabe

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #268 on: October 14, 2011, 10:25:41 PM »
I've just started Antony. He seemed easily swayed by others in his early years.

Mippy

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #269 on: October 15, 2011, 07:00:24 AM »
JoanK, amica mea ~  I did not mean to be harsh when I corrected the spelling/typing of Octavian.   Please forgive me.

Yes, any upper class Roman had many, many slaves to run errands.   Most household slaves were literate and numerate and many were freed upon the death of their owner.   They then became Roman citizens and could vote!   Do any of you recall:  A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum?   Sondheim's lyrics are spot on, as said in the UK.   I might quote a bit here, later 
                                                                 
The names of these players is enough to drive us mad, isn't it.  It especially bothers me when Plutarch switches to calling Octavian Caesar.   However, Octavian's officers did quickly start to address him as Caesar, according to McCullough, since he was named by Julius Caesar as his heir.   
quot libros, quam breve tempus

Babi

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #270 on: October 15, 2011, 09:03:32 AM »
He does, indeed, FRYBABE. My impression was that Antony wanted to be liked, and was
willing to go along with whatever the popular leader wanted. When he became a leader
himself, he still wanted everyone to like him, and went out of his way to associate
with his soldiers in a 'one of the boys'sort of way.

  I found it most interesting to learn that the conspirators had sounded out Antony, to see
if he might join them in their attack on Caesar.  He would not, but I guess he felt that
having put him on guard, they would not proceed.  At any rate, he did not betray the one
who had approached him.  I was also pleased to see that Brutus refused to allow the group
to include Antony in their plans for assassination because “an action undertaken in defence of
right and the lawsmust be maintained unsullied, and pure of injustice”.   
Brutus was indeed
an honorable man, though Shakespeare had Antony using that point to telling effect after
Caesar’s death.
   I was astonished, though, that Antony had given his son as hostage when he urged the
conspirators to ‘come down’ from the capitol.  His plea was successful, tho’, and all in all,
I think he showed more political acumen and civic responsibility than I would have credited
to him before.

 I was puzzled by the term 'act of oblivion’ which Antony proposed before the Senate, after
the assassination.  I found this definition in the Free Dictionary
   <I>The action of a government by which all persons or certain groups of persons who have committed a criminal offense, usually of a political nature that threatens the sovereignty of the government are granted immunity from prosecution. 
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

ginny

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #271 on: October 15, 2011, 11:49:07 AM »
Margie,glad to see you back, hope George is oK?

Jude, what a super assessment of Cleopatra and what a job Plutarch does on her and on Octavia. I wonder which would, in the eyes of somebody in 2011, be considered the more fine example of womanhood?

I am loving Antony's chapter. Just loving it. I love reading it right before going to sleep even tho it's impossible to hold up. I am distressed to see it already ending (where I am, anyway) and us  already at Actium, the final sea battle, such as it was, and Plutarch's stunning assessment of what Cleopatra was doing there and her own plans. I am absolutely LOVING this!

Also PatH brings up some Plutarchisms, I have laughed out loud at several of them. I liked that the enemy in the battle of the Parthians "did not think it convenient to advance any further" hahaha he's SO like Caesar in his speech (Julius, that is).

 I loved his assessment of the King of the Parthians, here Antony (isn't that an amazing bit about the water!!??) is running about on the front lines and here the Parthian king is retired at the rear: "for he himself was never present in any fight."


I cannot imagine Antony later abandoning soldiers who tried to carry water in their hands and helmets, when there was none so they could fight for him. But supposedly he did, according to Hollywood, to follow Cleopatra like a love sick puppy.

Over and over Plutarch portrays Antony as a lovesick boy who leaves everything for Cleopatra. This is the same slant the movie Cleopatra took on  Antony when Richard  Burton left the battle of Actium. It's now not thought accurate for Actium. I can't wait to see what Plutarch says.


Babi: Brutus was indeed an honorable man, though Shakespeare had Antony using that point to telling effect after
Caesar’s death.


I myself am in Dante's camp. He placed Brutus and Cassius in the lowest rung of his hell, along with Judas for the same reason.

That honorable man stuff, that vain flattery  is what killed Brutus's soul and his real honor, trying to be like his ancestor Brutus, he should have studied his history more. What a play HE would have made!~

LOVE this! To me Octavia wins the Real Woman battle here, hands down.

ginny

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #272 on: October 15, 2011, 12:39:55 PM »
Here, for those vaguely interested is Spark Notes on Dante's Fourth Ring of the 9th Circle of   Hell in the Inferno and why Brutus is there:

From: http://www.sparknotes.com/poetry/inferno/section13.rhtml

.
Analysis: Canto XXXIV

Here in the Fourth Ring of the Ninth Circle of Hell, at the utter bottom, Dante comes to the end of his hierarchy of sins and thus completes the catalogue of evil that dominates and defines Inferno. Although Inferno explores most explicitly the theme of divine retribution and justice, the poem’s unrelenting descriptions, categorizations, and analysis of sin makes human evil its fundamental subject.

The positioning of fraud as the worst of sins helps us to define evil: fraud, more than any other crime, acts contrary to God’s greatest gift to mankind—love. A deed’s degree of wickedness thus depends on the degree to which it opposes love. So-called ordinary fraud only breaks the natural bonds of trust and love that form between men; other categories of fraud reach an even greater depth of evil because they break an additional bond of love. Of these, frauds against kin, country, and guests constitute the lighter end of the scale, for they violate only socially obligated bonds—our culture expects us to love our family and our homeland and to be a good host.

 But fraud against a benefactor constitutes the worst fraud of all, according to Dante, for it violates a love that is purely voluntary, a love that most resembles God’s love for us. Correspondingly, one who betrays one’s benefactor comes closest to betraying God directly. Thus, the ultimate sinner, Judas Iscariot, was a man who betrayed both simultaneously, for his benefactor was Jesus Christ.

The justice of Brutus and Cassius’s placement in the lowest depths of Hell is more problematic. History tells us that these men did betray and murder Julius Caesar, but Caesar’s status as a great benefactor remains disputed.

The explanation for their presence lies in Dante’s often-implied belief that Rome is the sovereign city, destined to rule the world both physically and spiritually. Just as Christ, whose church is centered in Rome, was the perfect manifestation of religion, Dante feels that Caesar was the perfect manifestation of secular government, as the emperor of Rome at the height of its power.

Since spiritual concerns must, in the end, outweigh temporal ones, Judas has committed the greater sin, and his head, rather than his legs, feels the constant chewing of Lucifer’s teeth. However, the fact that Brutus and Cassius suffer a punishment only slightly less harsh demonstrates Dante’s belief that church and state play equally important roles, each in its own sphere. Throughout Inferno, Dante has expressed the view that church and state should remain separate but equal. Now, Dante finds an arrangement for the final circle of Hell that both completes his vision of the moral hierarchy and makes one last, vivid assertion of his politics.


PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #273 on: October 15, 2011, 12:52:45 PM »
Ginny, you bring up an interesting point.  My view of Brutus and Cassius is colored by Shakespeare.  But they did have reasons for what they did.  What were they?  Were any of them good?  What does anyone think?  Would you put them in the 9th circle?

JudeS

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #274 on: October 15, 2011, 01:48:52 PM »
PatH
When Dante wrote his words Hitler, Mao and Stalin had not yet been born.
So many evil people since Dante wrote(1265-1321) . Who today would put Brutus and Cassius next to Genghis Khan or
those who wiped out the South American Indian tribes?

So many years, so much evil.
Personally I get too upset if I think about evil people and the horror they have caused.

Someone famous said "The evil men do dies with them, the love they leave lives on."
Philosophically it is possible to debate that statement but this is neither the place or time.

ginny

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #275 on: October 15, 2011, 06:24:25 PM »
GREAT discussion!

No, I agree, for sheer bestiality the 20th century beats the ancients any time.  Rwanda alone. Pol Pot and his Killing Fields in Cambodia alone.

Would I put Brutus and Cassius in the lowest rung of hell? I wouldn't put anybody there but then I didn't write the Inferno, with such a wonderful honorable man as Brutus,   one wonders why Dante put him there?

The point is, he did.  Living when he did. Would anybody today put him there? It might depend on the criteria you apply. The most evil man in the world? no. The greatest mass murderer? No. Those don't appear to be the criteria Dante applied either.

Did Cassius have good reasons? Apparently not, according to Plutarch, who says of him:  
"And they were well persuaded that Cassius, being  a man governed by anger and passion, and carried often, for his interest's sake, beyond the bound of justice, endured all these hardships of war and travel and danger most assuredly to obtain dominion to himself, and not liberty to the people. (Marcus Brutus section, page 1204...I don't  know what page that is in other editions).

But of Brutus Plutarch says, "But Brutus for his virtue was esteemed by the people, beloved by his friends, admired by the best men, and hated not by his enemies themselves.  For he was a man of a singularly  gentle nature, of a great spirit, insensible of the passions of anger or pleasure or covetousness; steady and inflexible to maintain his purpose for what he thought right and honest. And that which gained him the greatest affection and reputation was the entire faith in his intentions."
(Plutarch in the chapter Marcus Brutus, page 1204).

And yet Brutus for all this great honor,  and sense of honesty, and everybody finding him spotless in intent, entered into a dishonest cowardly  conspiracy to kill the man who had not only pardoned him twice and his friends, and elevated him to high office,  but who saw him as a friend and possibly  successor in some way.  Plutarch quotes  Caesar, who apparently was able to see thru Brutus, when he was told of the conspiracy and that Brutus was part of it, "Brutus will wait for this skin of mine," intimating that he was worthy to bear rule on account of his virtue, but would not be base and ungrateful to gain it."  (Caesar section page 888 in this book). Again this is repeated slightly differently,  in another part of Plutarch, paraphrased as Caesar held up his hand,  as surely Brutus can wait for this little body.

Plutarch also says of Brutus, "But the honors and favors he received from Caesar took off the edge from the desires he might himself have felt for overthrowing the new monarchy. For he had not only been pardoned himself, after Pompey's  defeat at Pharsalia , and had procured the same grace for many of his friends, but was one in whom Caesar had a particular confidence....Nor would Caesar afterwards listen to some who spoke against Brutus..."

Caesar had also pardoned Cassius, when Cassius deserted his friend Pompey when Pompey's fortunes turned bad at Pharsalus and nevertheless was pardoned afterwards by Caesar.

Caesar was too lenient a man,  and too generous in his pardons, in my opinion. So why did Dante put the most honorable man alive into Hell, and not only Hell, in the lowest possible place? What did he know we don't? Even by Dante's time genocide and torture had taken place on a large scale.

The name Brutus in Latin means stupid.  It  literally means "idiot."  Brutus is not the family name, it's his cognomen, kind of like a nickname.   He claimed descent from the first Brutus tho this was somewhat  doubted. Again possibly a problem with the "honest" bit. (There's a nifty story about the first Brutus, the honorable ancestor that Marcus Brutus hoped to emulate and how he did a play on words on his name).
 
As for our Marcus Junius Brutus, surely when the most honorable of men  saw his secret group running about putting on wreaths on statues of Caesar to slander him and  arouse the public against him, and the conspirators meeting in secret meetings,  he felt perhaps ashamed.   His reported inability to sleep before the murder was much remarked on. Maybe we should read Brutus before we're through.

 I guess it depends on what a person thinks is character and loyalty.  He didn't seem to have a problem with Pompey's sole consulship.  Plutarch says in the  Brutus section again page 1204,  "For it had not ever been supposed that Pompey the Great himself, if he had overcome Caesar, would have submitted his power to the laws, instead of taking the management of the state upon himself, soothing the people with the specious name of consul or dictator, or some other milder title than king."

In other words, the "Republic" was already done. It was Caesar, not Pompey, nor Brutus, who increased the number of senators to 900.

 Cicero's letters  also reveal a slightly different slant on Brutus' character:  on his financial dealings with the people of Salamis (in Cyprus) he lent money at 48 percent interest, and was said to be  prepared to go to any length   to recover the debt.

Both  the Caesar and the Brutus chapters are  very interesting sections. On the positive side Plutarch  quotes Antony himself who is said to have observed that "Brutus was the only man that conspired against Caesar out of a sense of the glory and the apparent justice of the action, but that all the rest rose up against the man himself, from private envy and malice  of their own."

"The glory and the apparent justice of the action, sounds positive,  unless you think  it's not glorious or in the name of justice for any reason  to surround and stab an unarmed man 23 times.

Goldsworthy remarks of the conspirators that "Yet although these men believed that they were doing what was right for the Republic, they would not have been Roman aristocrats if they did not also crave the fame and glory that they felt would be attached to such a deed.  It should also be noted that the conspirators, especially the most distinguished of them like Cassius, Marcus and Decimus Brutus, Trebonius and Galba, were bound to do very well politically if the venture succeeded. They were men likely to be foremost amongst those senators who would guide the restored Republic, especially since it was scarcely likely that those who had remained staunchly loyal to Caesar would prosper after his death. But Marcus and Decimus Brutus gave up certain consulships, but could confidently predict that they would win the magistracy in  the election.  (Page 504).

Why did Dante put Brutus there with Cassius?  It may have something to do with  betrayal of loyalty and friendship. What a cowardly act it was, to me.
  

JoanK

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #276 on: October 15, 2011, 08:37:51 PM »
MIPPY: of course, goes without saying.

JUDE:"The evil men do dies with them, the love they leave lives on."

We can argue aboutwhether it is true, but we all WISH it were true.

WE never get to find out whether Brutus would have restored more Democracy or not. Somehow, I doubt it: even if he'd tried, he would have been overthrown. I agree that things had gone too far.

I think I'm the only one in the world who can't take Dante seriously. I think it's a hoot, making up all those punishments for his political enemies and anyone he didn't like. We.ve all felt that way, but didn't have the excuse of great poetry to excuse us.

In the spirit of evil dying and love living on, I think we should make up levels of Heaven for people we like. No, on second thought, that wouldn't do. Would our friends call us "You only gave ME the First level of heaven and SHE got the third?" 

Babi

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #277 on: October 16, 2011, 09:16:59 AM »
 My view on Brutus and CAssius are surely also colored by Shakespeare. Nevertheless, I
see Cassius as greedy and ambitious, and Brutus as manipulated into joining the conspiracy
by persuading him that Caesar was reaching for a crown and it was his duty as a good
Roman to help bring him down.  I don't think either man quite qualifies for the bottom
run of the inferno, tho'.  There have been been men quilty of far worse. Greed,ambition
and betrayal are really rather common sins, don't you think?

    “It was his character in calamities to be better than at any other time.  Antony, in misfortune, was most nearly a virtuous man.”
     The dichotomy in Mark Antony’s character does not appear to change as he matures. He is
still the ideal Roman in battle...a fine strategist, bold, courageous, well able to handle himself.
In civilian life, however, he returns to his dissolute and extravagant ways and appears utterly
lost to all sense of what is right, honorable or wise.
  Is battle, for him,  just another way of having fun?  Is that why he slips away, when it isn't
fun anymore?
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

PatH

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #278 on: October 16, 2011, 03:01:51 PM »
That's a good take on Antony's character, Babi, especially:

"Is battle, for him,  just another way of having fun?  Is that why he slips away, when it isn't fun anymore?"

Ingenious.  I bet you're right.

He certainly made a mess of his last campaign, when he was really more interested in trailing after Cleopatra, and passed up all sorts of good chances.  I don't completely trust Plutarch to give an even-handed account, but it's pretty clear.

JudeS

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Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #279 on: October 16, 2011, 03:54:19 PM »
Ginny
You certainly analyzed the issues down to the Nth degree!
Very impressive!

However look at things this way Who would you rather "hang out" with if you were a well to do Roman?
Who did all the woman fall for?
Who today remains a sort of"Superhero"?
Marc Antony of course.

JoanK
I'm with you. If you don't take Dante seriuosly he is quite a "hoot".