Author Topic: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online  (Read 204109 times)

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #360 on: March 10, 2012, 11:33:59 AM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in
 
Bleak House                            
by Charles Dickens
                   

  

Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.

The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.

The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name.  Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
 
  
 
Caddy's Flowers
 (click to enlarge)

 

INSTALMENT

VI
VII
 


 DATE of PUBLICATION
 
 Aug 1852
Sept 1852


 
 CHAPTERS

17-19
20-22  
   
 

 DISCUSSION DATES

Mar.11-15

 Mar.16-20
 
 Little Church in the Park
(click to enlarge)
               Some Topics to Consider

In this section Dickens sets up a lot of puzzles and throws out a lot of hints, without giving any answers, but we can have a lot of fun speculating.  If you've read ahead, please don't give away anything for those of us who haven't.  You can just chuckle with your superior knowledge.

Chapter XVII  Esther's Narrative

1.  Do you think that Richard's careless attitude regarding his education and future prospects is due to the Chancery suit or to the educational system of his time?  Can you discern what Esther thinks of him?

2. "The virtues of the mothers shall occasionally be visited upon the children, as well as the sins of the fathers."  What did Jarndyce mean by this when discussing Ada's future happiness with her?  Do you think  he knows Ada's father?

3.  Did her Guardian reveal any new information to or about Esther,  when he told her it was time to discuss her history with her?

4. Do you think we've heard the last of Allan Woodcourt as he heads off to India or China for a long voyage?  Do you think he left that nosegay for Esther?

Chapter XVIII  Lady Dedlock

1. Esther observes Richard's spending - his magic 'Fortunatus' purse.  Do you see Richard's spending habits like Skimpoles' or do you see a difference?

2. Do you think there is more to the animosity between John Jarndyce's friend, Boythorn and Sir Leicester, than the disputed property line?   Why are Jarndyce and the girls heading out to Lincolnshire to meet up with Boythorn?

3.  How does Dickens heighten the intensity in the much anticipated meeting between Esther and Lady Dedlock in the little country church in Lincolnshire?  How would you describe their reactions to one another when they came face to face?

4. What new information regarding  a history between Jarndyce and Lady Dedlock is revealed at the end of this scene?


Chapter XIX  Moving On

1.  Did you expect Jo to have a hard time on the streets with that gold coin he received from Lady Dedlock?  Why did the constable bring him to the Snagbys'?  Is there any place in the world where Jo can move on?  

2.  What brought Mr. Guppy  to the Snagbys'  parlor, just in time to hear Mrs. Chadband's surprising revelation?



 

                                                  

 Bleak House
 "A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge.


DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi,   JoanK  




JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #361 on: March 10, 2012, 12:11:23 PM »
I agree with you, Jonathan - Tulkinghorn is in a class of his own. He's the only one who scares me - 

We've yet to witness a murder, unless you count Nemo's death as murder. (and there was Tulkinghorn, right his death bed.)   But we know there will be one.  Does Tulkinghorn seem the sort who would get involved in a murder?  I can't really see it - but at the same time  I can't help but notice the different adjectives and images Dickens used to portray him - always black and dark, his face an expressionless mask, secretive - no household staff, no law clerks, heartless, ruthless... I was startled to see how coldy he issued that order against poor broken Gridely. But a murderer? And yet...


Aha, Babi - you see Jarndyce as independently wealthy - not dependent on the outcome of the Jarndyce and Jarndyce case in any way.  Even if costs must be paid - won't he feel it?  He's Tom Jarndyce's heir - lives in the house that belonged to Tom Jarndyce!  Is he so confident that the case will never be decided?  Or if it is, it will be in his favor? 

Does anyone know why the case is called "Jarndyce AND Jarndyce"...is there another Jarndyce involved besides Uncle Tom?

Jude, Skimpole's place in the novel is puzzling, isn't it? I'm not seeing him as a scam artist...at least I don't see him scamming Jarndyce. What is Dickens telling us with this character?  Is he simply comic relief - for us, the readers, as well as for Jarndyce, who is tired of the many requests for his support?.  At least Skimpole is a source of amusement - worth the money.  He really isn't a good example for young Richard Carstone, is he?  Why doesn't Jarndyce see this?

 Shall we add Skimpole's postition in the novel to our list of questions?  Perhaps it will become clearer as we get deeper into the story.  Our list gets longer -  think there is only one that has been answered - can you find it?  Here's the list - UNSOLVED MYSTERIES



marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #362 on: March 10, 2012, 02:15:27 PM »
Babi, I too got the impression that Jarndyce's income is separate from the money tied up in the lawsuit.

Laura, those are awful descriptions of the poverty and mire in which Jo lives. The "deadly stains" that "contaminate" Lady D's dress are especially vivid. "into a corner of that hideous archway, with its deadly stains contaminating her dress."

JoanP, that's so interesting that Dickens wanted to name the book "Tom All-Alone's." I can't figure that out.

I'm worried, too, about the gold coin. What would a boy like Jo do with a gold coin!?

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #363 on: March 10, 2012, 03:45:25 PM »
Even getting change for a gold coin might be a problem for Jo, and people would be suspicious of how he got it.

Lady Dedlock's attitude toward Jo is striking.  She looks at him with loathing, and doesn't seem to regard him as human.

I agree, John Jarndyce is rich in his own right.

Jonathan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #364 on: March 10, 2012, 04:07:10 PM »
Hasn't Dickens taken us into a morass of people and events? I don't think I have ever read a book like this one. I'm hooked. I'm already thinking of the next Dickens book. It will probably be Great Expectations, with that new movie coming up in April. But meanwhile, back in Tom-all-alone's... What will Jo do with his gold coin? How will he explain it? With the same answer he has for every question: I know nothing. I don't believe it. Not from a kid who lives on the street. One can't even guess how often he's asked for information. By coroners and ladies of fashion!

That deadly stain on her gown does look terrible. But better on the outside than on her soul. She seems like such a loner despite being the object of society gossip. Is she anybody other than Sir Leceister's wife? Did she come up the 'deportment' way?

Interesting, Jude, the questions you have about Skimpole. What's he doing in this story? I believe he represents a great alternative to all the misery in Bleak House. Perhaps comic relief. Everybody loves him. Hasn't he just told us that Boythorn has invited him out to his place? His cockeyed ideas amuse all his listeners. He has novel ways of looking at life's problems. He's a great and successful sponger. Nobody is fooled. Except himself. He feels bilious. He knows many men with property who are bilious. And so he feels propertied himself.

So I think he is a shining example for Mr Jarndyce, who carries the weight of J and J on his shoulders. He's certainly trying to get out from under. Trying to rebuild the family that has been torn apart for generations. Like the Gridleys. Jarndyces have been fighting Jarndyces through the years, caught in the legal trap. At the cost of sixty to seventy thousand pounds. That would be about five million pounds in todays money.

Barbara mentiond Queen Victoria in her post. Not long ago I watched the Mrs Brown movie. She's holed up in Sandringham Castle feeling unloved by her people. A constitutional crisis is looming. Prime Minister Disraeli goes up there to get her out of her self-imposed exile. The people love you, he tells her. your book on the Highlands is outselling Dickens!

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #365 on: March 10, 2012, 04:24:23 PM »
OH dear - colored lines - shoot which one to pick up first - trying to remember how I started to see this because since I have an entire schismatic in my head of many colored lines that is affecting how I am seeing characterizations and life lessons from the story.

It hit me back when I noticed John Jarndyce was generous however, he surrounded himself with the people he helps like an art collector or collector of trophies - this is NOT said to be judgmental but is a characteristic that as an element of a story is called the "exposition" and therefore, if that characteristic was interrupted or put to the test it could be the "conflict" that leads to a "climax" or one of the many climaxes that the author brings to "resolution". So far with the understanding of charity at this time in history Richard could be teetering but John Jarndyce seems to accept much behavior different than his own just as long as the person he is helping remains in his life.

Then a bunch of character pairings in the story plus many of you acknowledged the reason for many children was to provide security for their parents in their old age - not mentioned but, along those lines is how farmers needed hands for the fields with the promise the farm would be theirs one day.

OK two divergent thoughts here - like Frost's Walk in the Woods - OK first this one - a quick reference to a sociology text that compares the children of the world.

"If the fate of the majority of babies is in doubt, it follows that the community into which a child is born would be reluctant to make a deep emotional investment until the child's viability was confirmed. Our survey revealed that most societies do not automatically confer personhood upon the newborn."

This chapter continues to talk about how swaddling and cradle boarding is explained by moms that children are made strong with these practices and without swaddling or cradle boarding when they are older they will drift into deviant behavior.

And so, for Esther and many other moms, we substitute swaddling with nurturing that matches a certain expectation of "look" - clean, neat, no potty mouth, patched in a nice way, educated, regular hours, helpful, socially acceptable behavior, if not a pride to the family at least not an embarrassment etc. etc. We are as concerned as Esther is for Caddy, Peppy, all the Jellyby Children - we put white hats on the nurturers in the story and question anyone who seems distant that we interpret as uncaring especially, someone who "brags" about their uncaring with what we think is a lame excuse.

OK we could go deeper and deeper into this characteristic as it applies to characters in the story and to ourselves and life today. Now the other bit - that has often, many times, helped me and is carried to extremes in the story but it does have validity. I see this concept as opposed to those who put greater emphasis on trophy taking especially in business, marketing, what we expect from ministers sermons and in the story not only Skimpole but the difference between Caddy and Peppy.

Every time Jonathan posts about Peppy he sees the independent, adventurous, free little boy that is anything but swaddled or cradle-boarded. Compare Peppy to Mrs. Pardiggle's children.

Did you know a dandelion can have up to 2000 seeds in each flower head? Can you imagine a dandelion holding on to its seeds and not letting go? And who doesn’t love to blow the seeds off a dandelion! Wind and children seem to be the best at it.

I see how the internet has blown all sorts of information into the wind - wishes we are told should be let go into the wind - we have no idea where or when they may sprout like seeds. Certain business practices only give information if they have a way to capture you as a client - taking trophies - marketers want to measure the affect on profit if they blow information into the wind - but we do want our ministers to preach blowing their seeds of wisdom for us to accept or reject or at times not even hear rather than as a source for a bigger collection or to direct our attitudes about others in the world.

Mrs. Jellyby blows her children in the wind and Peppy thrives but Caddy had expectations placed on her - and that is what I think she is chaffing under just as any child whose principle role after birth is to take care of the parents that brought him or her into life or to receive a gift and the message is clear we must use the gift in a certain way and make it a part of our life - how many of us stored gifts in the attic to be brought out when the giver came to visit and finally used it in an elephant sale - another example of a gift given to secure a connection to your own values rather than as a seed blown by us as in blowing a dandelion.

John Jarndyce sees the wind and if there is trouble, someone who does not measure up to what he can accept the east wind is mentioned however Skimpole is a child and epitomizes blowing his children to the wind.

On one side there is - “Kites rise highest against the wind, not with it.” and then there is, "The Answer My Friend is Blowing in the Wind", "Let it be", "la beauté est un voyage"

The age old question do we help the poor expecting them to use the help and the leg-up as we think or do we allow the poor to have the freedom that the help temporarily provides. This to me is one of the questions that Dickens is exploring in Bleak House - the courts, the law like the government cares less about those who are within their jurisdiction and have blown them to the wind - and by making Skimpole a character that is not to be admired it is easy to see when in all scenes so far he is a foil to John Jarndyce.

Like Miss Flite we can cage up our values till the courts that control stop controlling words and documents paying attention to people, common sense that we see as justice however, the story says those caged values will be supper for those who have been flexing their aggressive behavior -

Is the caged Lady Dedlock supper to the likes of Tulkinghorn - Caddy is breaking free of her cage and Peppy never stepped into the cage - Richard and Ada are in the cage built by the courts and so forth - so I see...

the difference between blowing a Dandelion and collecting Trophies - Business wants to count Trophies - Marketing wants to count and collect Trophies - Good Will can either blow itself in the wind or be a Spider Web - did Dickens allow his boys freedom or did he hold them to his expectations - is their moving away interpreted by another as an example of control over freedom - hmmm we can look at it both ways because he sure did not stop their journeys on the wind.




“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #366 on: March 10, 2012, 06:24:47 PM »
PatH, you say, "Even getting change for a gold coin might be a problem for Jo, and people would be suspicious of how he got it." I agree. All he can say is that a "servant" gave it to him. Not a very believable story.

Jonathan, you have a great sense of humor. No wonder you are captivated by Dickens. LOL re Queen Victoria outselling Dickens!

Barbara, you've focused on two of Dickens important metaphors: cages and winds. I'm going to re-read your post and think some more. I want to follow your colored lines.


BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #367 on: March 10, 2012, 06:58:06 PM »
Mercie there are times when I think my colored lines are like Jo's muddy crossroad

I see that Mrs. Jellyby blew all her children to the wind except Caddy who is her trophy child - I think that is why Caddy is angry with her mother - she has felt like her mothers trophy without being free to do her own thing.

I see that Skimpole in the story is around either John Jarndyce or Esther both who seem like Spider webs - with JJ collecting trophies and Esther desiding the behavior that is worthy of being a trophy.

Miss Flite keeps her dandelions [birds] caged without using her power to either blow any into the wind or to collect a trophy but promises if she gets a trophy she will blow some of her caged captives into the wind.

Then you have Caddy becoming stronger for rising against being caged not because she is rising against the wind however, Mr. Gridley becomes more nurturing and compassionate than he was to his brother because he has been blown to the wind by the court system and in his freedom without a farm he rises and takes on the care of two of the children.

And so I am not seeing a consistency that suggests being blown to the wind is any less valuable than being taken as a trophy. They do represent a way of seeing some of the conflicts because Dickens does have JJ fully accepting of Skimpole - the courts, who seem to blow people into the wind depend upon another wind blower in Mrs. Jellyby. Dickens does not treat too kindly Mrs. Pardiggle and her controlled trophy boys.

In fact, that is what Richard seems to be doing - there are hints that he may not be angry like Caddy says she is with her mother but, he seems to want to go his own way.

Well it opened my eyes to a dichotomy that I see in my choices today and how I interpret some of my experiences. Freedom, I think Dickens is saying comes with risk where as doing the socially acceptable is controll and maybe caged versus the winds of change which is freedom.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #368 on: March 10, 2012, 11:18:22 PM »
hmmm, Barbara, when you say that Esther is "deciding the behavior that is worthy of being a trophy," do you mean her own behavior? So that she is worthy of being someone's "trophy" or do you see her deciding or judging the behavior of others?

It seems to me that Dickens is very hard on the Courts which seem to be controlling the destiny of so many people. Caging (as the Courts do) seems akin to taking trophies in some way. I am not sure that Dickens is for caging versus freedom.


BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #369 on: March 11, 2012, 01:21:21 AM »
Esther seems to judge others and is approving or being diplomatic or finds a way to enter the persons space to make a difference or simply moves on - I get the impression she became a watcher of herself and others as a child as she was told and realized she was a problem to her Godmother.

And yes, I am with you - I do not think Dickens has come down on either caging or blowing in the wind - caging is protection and nurturing so that both dandelion blowing and being a trophy have their virtues - Caddy would never have learned to write nor be so determined to find better in life if she had not been a trophy - and you have to wonder if Jo is experiencing a better life living in the streets versus being in an orphanage as we know from Oliver Twist what that experience was like.

What I do see is that each character is projecting a value and if something came along to disrupt  - for instance, how would John Jarndyce handle helping someone who decided to be independent and not stay under his patronage while engaging in risk that could bring about further and greater calamity or if Caddy could not make a better life and had to stay as a secretary to her mother her entire life.

I do not think we as a reader have to judge if a trophy or caging is better or worse than being blown forth in the name of freedom. Our history honors freedom but we look for security and think that children should be protected -

I was taken with the piece that explained how mothers will hold off investing their feelings in their babies because so many die which reminds me of the stories of how on earth a mother in Africa today can leave a child on the side of the road to die in order to save the other children - we hear how some mothers cannot make that decision and they die but thank goodness we hear that from a father who continued on with the children - how many mothers die with their children that we don't hear about - In order to have a future the mother who chose children to save at the cost of another child's death must divest themselves of their feelings - One on one we are devastated with these thoughts and images yet, divesting of feelings is what is being perpetrated by the court system in addition, Dickens was addressing society that divests their feelings about the poor.

Further reading about the bones piled in the cemetery - Nemo's bones - since there was not enough cemetery space in London corpses were dug up and dismembered in order to make room for the next - there were knives and hatches for this purpose left in a locked cemetery. The poor robbed coffins to use as firewood and sold any cloth as rags - white rags received more money than colored rags and the bones were sold to make knife handles, buttons and boiled to remove the fat that was used to make candles - no wonder the servant lady was distraught in contrast to Jo who took it all as normal with no outward feelings about his friend Nemo.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #370 on: March 11, 2012, 08:59:38 AM »
Dickens ended the 5th installment with a cliff hanger, didn't he?  Lady Dedlock left that "cemetery" with her stained skirts and Mrs. Rouncewell telling Rosa she's never heard the step upon the Ghost's Walk more distinct than it was that night.  Though I don't think anyone saw her out that night - except Jo, of course, we're left with the sense that she is going to be found out.  Did you enjoy the fact that she returned from this outing for a fancy dinner and not one, but two balls!  :)  

"She looks at him (Jo) with loathing, and doesn't seem to regard him as human."  PatH, I too puzzled over Lady D's reaction to the sight of poor Jo   Do you think she was regarding him as part of the whole - as part of the condition in which this man she obviously knew, had lived...and died?  The whole place, including Jo, would have been appalling and depressing to her.

Jo returns to that run down flophouse  - "Tom-All-Alone's."  You were surprised that Dickens came close to giving this name to his novel?   "Tom-All-Alone's" is a bleak house, isn't it?  Are you thinking what I'm thinking? 

I'm quite excited to get into this new installment- in which John Jarndyce is to discuss Esther's history with her!  Not to mention the prospect of Esther and Lady Dedlock coming face to face for the first time!  Dickens, the master storyteller!





Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #371 on: March 11, 2012, 10:00:56 AM »
  Since court costs were paid out of the contested estate, John Jarndyce would not have to
pay those, JOAN. And obviously he is wealthy enough to take in Esther, Ada and Richard.
Not to mention being besieged by do-gooders wanting funds.
  I agree, I can't see Tulkinghorn as a murderer, either. He is far too cautious and careful
to do anything that would put himself at risk.  I assume that it was 'Jarndyce and Jarndyce'
because other family members challenged the original will. It is now obvious they would
have been happier and wealthier if they had accepted it.

  Unfortunately, BARB, Richards 'own way' appears to be an idle enjoyment of life with
no real responsibilities,..which of course requires a happy outcome from the lawsuit.
So, where does that leave him?  Does anyone think Jarndyce and Jarndyce is going to be
resolved to anyone's satisfaction?
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #372 on: March 11, 2012, 11:12:09 AM »

Babi - I'll bite.  Yes, I think the case will be resolved - but "to anyone's satisfaction" - that is a good question.  I think that new information will come to the fore that will settle the original reason for the suit...but the rest of it is anyone's guess.
Do we know who brought the suit in the first place?  As Tom Jarndyce's heir, don't you think that John Jarndyce is involved in the case?  I thought Tom Jarndyce died penniless - except for BLEAK HOUSE...

Quote
"Esther seems to judge others and is approving or being diplomatic or finds a way to enter the persons space to make a difference or simply moves on." Barbara


This instalment  opens with a visit from Mrs. Bayham Badger of all people!  I'd been wondering how Esther viewed Richard, Barb. Perhaps she'd been diplomatically waiting for an opening such as this.  I was surprised at the way the opportunity presented itself.  What did she think of Richard?

 Do you think that his careless attitude regarding his education and future prospects is due to the Chancery suit or to the educational system of his time? Would he be this way even had he not had those prospects?

JudeS

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #373 on: March 11, 2012, 01:18:42 PM »
In Chapter 17 Dickens opens up Richard's character flaws-and so elegantly spoken by the  writer:
 
"Richard had no habit of application and concentration..... Like fire and water though excellent servants they were very bad masters.If they had been under Richard's direction, they would have been his friends, but Richard, being under their direction, they became his enemies."

"He had the careless spirit of a gamester who felt he was part of a great gaming system."

Esther sees these parts of Richard but still likes him.  I had the feeling, by the end of the chapter, that there was a bit of Skimpole in Richard. This was a sad revelation.

There are so many chapters left. Perhaps in the end Richard will redeem himself in some way. At the moment he is like a feckless Frat Boy.Charming but really worthless.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #374 on: March 11, 2012, 01:37:54 PM »
I missed the bit about the two balls - maybe I would have had an earlier clue who she was - it wasn't till Jo spoke of her rings that I figured it out because I thought it was Lady D's personal maid or a yet identified relation to Nemo since they indicated he was at one time a man of substance.

A lady being out alone at night in this part of town - I can see how un-nerving that must have been and to have to call upon the help of a stranger who represents in looks and speech all that this part of town represents - I think she was thinking of her own safety and not the feelings of Jo. We know him as the sweet orphan but Lady D never met him and had no idea what to expect - I may not say anything for fear of being hurt but if it were me today I do not think I would be capable of being that risky.

Well I feel like as you say a cliff hanger but even more - I think we have turned the page and we are now into the meat of this story - the characters are introduced with their characteristics - the underlying themes of the story are outlined and now Dickens will be showing us the conflicts and getting to the climax of each conflict - I cannot imagine there will be introduced additional important characters - maybe a few minor ones to help flush out the conflicts. Sixteen chapters devoted to the soup course - I wonder if we could have stayed mucking about pre-WWI with Downton Abbey that long - although the original Upstairs Downstairs was 68 episodes.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

salan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #375 on: March 11, 2012, 02:28:06 PM »
Oops!  I've fallen behind.  Just now starting on chapter 16.  Will wait to read posts until I've caught up.  Anyone else having trouble keeping up?? 
Sally

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #376 on: March 11, 2012, 03:45:31 PM »
Our Welsh mom and Dickens fun attempt to write the names of the mythical heroes of Wales - he was au courant - Lady Charlotte Guest had in 1849 finished translating into English the - Mabinogion and Culhwch ac Olwen along with the other myths of Wales in two volumes.

The Mabinogion is a series of 4 Romance stories and included in anther series is Culhwch ac Olwen which is a story of a young knight whose step mother put a curse on both him and his father - he must marry her daughter - he never sees her but is drawn to her and in order to find her enlists the aid of Arthur - with 6 of Arthur's best they find her but the wedding is delayed because if it takes place the death of the king, his father is part of the curse. hmmmm
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #377 on: March 11, 2012, 04:05:04 PM »
Well for heaven's sake - last one in the world I would expect but it appears Miss Flite's daily shilling came from Mr. Woodcourt!
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #378 on: March 11, 2012, 07:24:44 PM »
This installment looks promising to reveal more of the story - but we are not halfway into the book...How much will Dickens give away so early?

Sally
, you really aren't that much behind, but you are wise to go off with a nice hot cuppa and catch up a bit.  Can you read XVI, the scene in the grave yard and then the first chapter of this installment, Chapter XVII? .  We'll watch for you.

Is anyone else having a hard time keeping up?   How would you feel about stepping up the pace?  Or is this pace - three chapters every five days?

Barbara was describing Dr. Woodcourt's mother in her last post.  Really?  Mr. Woodcourt is leaving those 7 shillings for Miss Flite?  I missed that.  The poor surgeon?  Another generous man - like John Harndyce?  Are we a bit too quick to assume that JoHn i Jarndyce is the only source of generosity?  Maybe Dickens is showing ua that there are other "philanthropists" at work here.  
This doctor could probably reveal something more  about his patient - the mysterious Nemo - don't you think?  Surely the methodical Mr. Tulkinghorn will arrive at this same conclusion.
  Didn't we learn that Mr. Woodcourt is off for China or India?  Do we know why?  

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #379 on: March 11, 2012, 08:10:17 PM »
Woodcourt as benefactor blew right by me.  I still thought it was Mr. Jarndyce.  I'm surprised, because Woodcourt is broke.  That's why he's off to be a ship's surgeon.  To make a go of it in London, he needs a way to keep going while he builds up a reputation and a practice and is making enough to live on, and he has no monetary cushion whatever.

I was amused by his mother's Welsh names.  I think Dickens was mostly making them up to be the sort of mangled thing Esther would produce hearing them once and not knowing any Welsh.

Jonathan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #380 on: March 11, 2012, 09:09:06 PM »
Esther telling the reader about Allan Woodcourt's mother: She was a pretty old lady, with bright black eyes, but she seemed proud...after expatiating to us on the fame of her great kinsman, said that, no doubt, wherever her son Allan went, he would remember his pedigree, and would on no account form an alliance below it....She talked so much  about birth, that, for a moment, I half fancied, and with pain - but, what an idle fancy to suppose that she could think or care what mine was! The exclamation mark is Esther's. She has taken a shine to Allan, obviously.

I think Dickens is having a little fun, here, with people looking for ancestors. Royal Welsh blood in ones veins. Wow. Perhaps, in due time, Esther will also acquire some, and be a somebody.


Jonathan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #381 on: March 11, 2012, 09:22:34 PM »
It has occurred to me (perhaps it has already been mentioned and I missed it.) that the Tom of Tom-all-Alone's was Tom Jarndyce, the Jarndyce who blew his brains out, which persuaded John Jarndyce to dissociate himself from the suit. Is the Tom-all-Alone's slum property the part of the Jarndyce estate that has been paying the costs all these years?

Jonathan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #382 on: March 11, 2012, 09:36:10 PM »
It was the part of the Jarndyce wealth that was left in trust that has caused all the problems over the years. Esther has it explained to her in Chapter 8. Was it intended irony in Chapter 14, when talk of a court settlement among Ada, Esther and Richard has Ada saying to Richard: 'But I'm afraid if we trust to it, it will make us unhappy.' And Richard replies: 'But, my Ada, we are not going to trust to it! We know better than to trust it.' He's confident of his rights and is going to continue the court action.

bookad

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #383 on: March 11, 2012, 11:05:47 PM »
hi there
my vote is to continue with the current number of chapters/days that we are doing?

I too missed the mention of the person helping Miss Flite with her financial situation.  I couldn't imagine reading this book as I generally do ...I would be missing so much...a fair number of times I must reread sections to really get the gist...and now reading from the 'Norton Critical Edition of "Bleak House" '...with all the background material...well...but how fascinating a read

on PBS radio stn. recently there was a program about how English changes from place to place with the movement of people and also thru the ages...and this book really has quite a different mode of English from todays published material...I wonder what Dickens would have thought about today's English!!

I seem to remember early in the reading learning that the Jarndyce owned property in central London area that was needing a lot of attention as it was in poor repair ...until the court case money came thru ??!!

what a book

I just noticed there are 10 chapters titled 'Esther's Narrative' & the last chapter is titled 'The Close of Esther's Narrative'

Deb
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #384 on: March 12, 2012, 08:18:07 AM »
Dickens has put so much into this work, hasn't he?  Some of it is important to the mystery, some of it is there simply to amuse, to entertain,  and some of it provides him the opportunity to comment on the social issues of his time.  It does require careful reading.. Can you think of another book like it?   
 
I've recorded Deb's vote to stick to the original five days per installment.  Does anyone else have  a preference?

I like those Esther Narratives , Deb- especially the ones in which her Guardian takes her into his confidence.  In Chapter XVII he has decided it is time to let her know her history.  I thought, "at last we're getting to it."  At first, I was disappointed.  But I put the book down and thought about it for a bit - and concluded that what he has told her is all Jarndyce really knows about her background.  Did he reveal anything to her that Esther didn't know already?

I'm going to go get the information on the title - I think it supports what Jonathan and Deb posted yesterday about "Tom All-Alone's"  house...

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #385 on: March 12, 2012, 08:51:54 AM »
The Norton Critical Edition includes Dickens' notes for the title of Bleak House.  These notes, in his own hand on the usual blue sheets of paper, can be viewed today in the Victoria and Albert Museum in London.  I really don't think they give away anything important to the plot at ths point...at least I hope not.  But they do support  Deb's comments on the house in town and Jonathan's connection between Tom-All-Alone's and Tom Jarndyce.  I'll type them here, just as I see them. 


1. Tom-All-Alone's
     The Ruined House

2.  Tom-All-Alone's
      The Solitary Home
      That never knew happiness
      That was always shut up
                Bleak House Academy
                The East Wind

3.    Tom-All-Alone's
                Building
                 Factory
                  Mill
           The Ruined House
            That got into Chancery
            and never got out

 
4.  Tom-All-Alone's
       The Solitary House
        where the grass grew

5.  Tom-All-Alone's
      The Solitary House
       That was always shut up
                          never lighted

6.   Tom-All-Alone's,
      The Ruined Mill,
      That got into Chancery
         and never got out

7.   Tom-All-Alone's
      The Solitary House
       Where the Wind howled

8. Tom-All-Alone's
           House
    The Ruined Mill   
     That got into Chancery
     and never got out

9.  Tom-All-Alone's
       The Ruined House
   In Chancery
   That got into Chancery
    and never got out.

10.                      Bleak House
           and the East Wind
      How they both got into Chancery
      and never got out
                     ____________________
 
                      Bleak House

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #386 on: March 12, 2012, 09:08:49 AM »
Quote
Do you think that his careless attitude regarding his education and future prospects is due
to the Chancery suit or to the educational system of his time? Would he be this way even
had he not had those prospects?
  JoanP
  Is it really a case of either/or, JOAN? I think both elements contributed to Richard's
attitude. But no, I don't think he would have this kind of approach to life without the
exectation of wealth. He would have known early on that he must find some way to make his
living.

Ah, Mrs. Woodcourt, mother of the young surgeon who has been drifting lightly in the
background of the story.  She is immensely proud of her lineage from Morgan ap-Kerrig,
a Welsh ancestor.  I always love stories of Welsh history and was sad to learn Morgan is
entirely fictional.  :(
  Mr. Woodcourt, though generous and compassionate, is not at all wealthy. As PatH says,
he is taking employment in the hopes of advancing his career. All of which continues to let
us know, gradually, what a fine fellow he is. I am persuaded that he will be the one to gain
Esther's love. Dickens has given us enough clues to suggest that, I think.

  I think Esther is also quite correct, JONATHAN, in suspecting that Mrs. Woodcourt was
trying to tactfully let Esther know that she was not a suitable prospect for her son.  But like
so many mothers, I think her own expectations for her son are much higher than is reasonable from a worldly viewpoint.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #387 on: March 12, 2012, 12:41:07 PM »
I agree about Richard.  Nothing in life has forced him to buckle down to working at anything important.  Had he always known he had to make a living or starve, he might not have become a world-beater, but he would have been more responsible.

There is a crucial difference between Richard and Skimpole.  Both are unrealistic about money, but Richard only spends money he actually has.  When he pays 5 pounds for a fancy waistcoat, he can do so because he is "in funds" that summer, not because he has found a tailor who doesn't know any better than to give him credit.  When he gives all his money to Neckett to keep Skimpole out of jail, he then feels he won't be able to spend anything for a while.  Maybe he didn't earn it (I assume his parents had made some provision for him, probably dealt out by Jarndyce under court supervision) but at least it's his actual money he's spending.  To me, that's a vital character difference.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #388 on: March 12, 2012, 01:08:36 PM »
Pat do you think Richard has living parents? I cannot tell but my impression was they were all three wards that were taken in by John Jarndyce - I am not remembering any mention of where Ada or Richard lived before joining Esther on their journey to Bleak House.

There is a difference isn't there between Skimpole and Richard - I just get the impression that Richard not only is fixated on the outcome of Jarndyce versus Jarndyce but I do not get the impression he has passion for anything in life - including Ada - oh I think he is smitten but not in the way of giving up everything for her or anything in his life.

But yes, there does not appear to be anything conniving about Richard where as Skimpole appears to be thinking all the time how to justify blowing through someone's life licking up all the drippings and then some. Not too different than the Chancery.

And so we have a visual showing us what the actions or rather inaction of the Chancery does to a case in the form of Tom-All-Alone's - and more interesting is that is where our beloved Jo finds shelter that would not be available to him if the buildings were maintained. Sounds too much like the similar story of Mr. Gridley whose life is "All-Aone's" taking on the care of the two younger children while Charlotte works.

And so Mr. Woodcourt is off to find his fortune or at least a living at his profession in the east - I wonder if he meets or becomes John Jarndyce's east wind.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #389 on: March 12, 2012, 01:17:41 PM »
Right, Barb, Richard must be an orphan, but in his social class his parents probably had money to leave him, and probably had set up some system for doling it out until he was of age.  It can't be enough to live on permanently, though, or he wouldn't have to find a profession.  I think you're right about no passion.

Jonathan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #390 on: March 12, 2012, 02:43:35 PM »
'I think he is smitten but not in the way of giving up everything for her or anything in his life.' Says Barb, about Richard's love for Ada.

Isn't that very hypothetical? He has nothing to give up. It's asking too much at this stage of their romance. Is there anything in the 'working notes' and 'plan sheets'?

How interesting to read of all the work Dickens put into plotting his novel. Deciding on a title was quite an exercise. Notice the refrain that runs through many of the options: "the house that got into Chancery and never got out'  

Could the notes be a spoiler for the reader? Seeing how the author considers many options, and calculates the narrative consequences.

JoanP asks a good question. Do we know why Mr Woodcourt is off to China or India? We have every reason to wonder. Mrs Woodcourt has him (maybe) finding a rich wife in India.

What does seem certain to me, is that the author wanted him out of the way for a bit.

JoanK

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #391 on: March 12, 2012, 03:04:01 PM »
I saw little snippets of the PBS version of Bleak nHouse a few years ago: not enough to ever figure out the plot. The only thing I remember is the actress who played Lady Dedlock. Don't know her name, but she had exactly the feel of the Lady dedlock in the book -- dark, mysterious, aloof, you always wanted to know more about her and what was under that facade.

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #392 on: March 12, 2012, 03:53:25 PM »
JoanK - the lady is usually aloof - but seeing her out at night in disguise in that part of town - somehting has shaken her out of her usual coolness or boredom.  Does she feel threatened?  We're told that the steps on the Ghost's Walk in Lincolnshiire is exceptionally loud this night.  Does this mean that disgrace is about to come to the Leicester name - because of this outing?  Did anyone see her...besides Jo?

Jonathan, I certainly hope the title suggestions weren't a spoiler.  I think that Dickens was working on a title all along - it wasn't until he decided on the ending that he came up with the title, Bleak House.   When the installments came out, the readers didn't see the titles he was considering, did they?  Nor did they know that Tom-All-Alone's was almost the title of the book...

Barbara -  in the beginning of the book in the third chapter of the first installment when Esther, Ada and Richard meet  in Mr. Kenge's office -

They each have prospects.  Wouldn't it be funny if the case was decided in Ada's favor, and not Richard's?- and he had to pay costs?
Does anyone remember if the cousins are related to John Jarndyce?  Cousins?

Interesting that both young men, Richard and   Allan have chosen the same profession to improve themselves..  - both will have to work hard to become officers - ship doctors.  Did you think that Richard was going to apply himself under the guidance of the Bayham Badgers?

  Babi asked if we thought the case was going to be settled before the book ends.  What is your guess?



PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #393 on: March 12, 2012, 04:28:14 PM »
Richard and Ada are distantly related to John Jarndyce.  In the first chapter, when the question is brought up in Chancery, he is described as "He is a cousin, several times removed.  I am not at the moment prepared to inform the court at what exact remove he is a cousin, but he is a cousin."

I'm guessing the case will be settled before the book ends, but judging from Dickens' remarks, starting in the first chapter, I doubt it will do anybody any good.

Laura

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #394 on: March 12, 2012, 05:09:32 PM »
I don’t think Jarndyce and Jarndyce is ever going to be resolved at all, let alone to anyone’s satisfaction!  It seems to me that too many people involved in the law as lawyers and such are involved and derive their livelihood from it.  They have an interest n keeping it going, so they can keep their income.

I don’t think that Richard’s careless attitude regarding his education and future prospects is due to the Chancery suit or to the educational system of his time.  I think it is his personality.  I am sure that other young gentlemen with his educational background are gainfully employed.  I cannot explain why Richard is the way he is any more than I can explain why Mr. Skimpole is the way he is.

Barbara, with regards to more characters, we still haven’t met Mr. Bucket, a detective, who I would expect to be a major character.  I have no idea where this story is going!  It is quite the journey trying to figure it out!

I still like the current pace of the reading and discussion.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #395 on: March 12, 2012, 05:32:52 PM »
Oh my Laura - a Detective - that sounds ominous - have two more chapters from this package to read - I wonder if the paper it was published in was sold by subscription - do you think some folks had the paper with the story delivered to their door? I cannot find anything that says where in this time of history a paper was purchased - anyone have a clue?

When I was a kid there was either the corner tobacco store with all the papers lined up on benches in front with a rock on each pile to hold them from the wind - they were also sold by newsboys who brought them into the bars - thinking about it where ever the men hung out - never in the Drug store or 5 & 10 and only one paper to the owner of the Grocery and Fish store hmmm maybe a left over from when women were not taught to read but were taught to do needlework, cook and take care of the sick. So I wonder where the papers were sold in 1852. I am thinking if there were paper boys Jo would be selling papers rather than sweeping streets hoping for a tip and to find some lost change among the paves.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Laura

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #396 on: March 12, 2012, 07:50:51 PM »
I do think there is a good chance that Mr. Woodcourt could find a wife in India.  His mother told him “that there were many handsome English ladies in India who went out on speculation.”  My book has a footnote stating:

“In the absence of other or better marriage prospects, some daughters were encouraged to seek husbands among the officers stationed in India and the civil servants of the East India Company, whose prosperity made them attractive candidates.”

I read a whole book about women doing just such a thing.  It was called East of the Sun.  Here’s a link:

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/east-of-the-sun-julia-gregson/1100364427?ean=9781439101124&itm=1&usri=east+of+the+sun

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #397 on: March 12, 2012, 09:09:34 PM »
Laura, do you really see Allan Woodcourt looking for a wife?  I know Dickens gives us little reason to think that there is anything going on between Esther and the young surgeon.  His mother is making it clear that blood is more important when considering marriage.  Maybe it was his mother's idea that he go to India or Chna.   But there's the matter of that nosegay.  Caddy seems to be delivering it to Esther - from  Woodcourt.  Or do you think that he meant it for someone else?
At this point, I agree with Jonathan, Dickens has plans for Woodcourt - but not just yet.  Jarndyce has enough on his hands with his two wards, his young cousins.

 Everyone suspected Richard was not really interested in medicine, though he liked the idea of sailing.  But the family was hopeful when he went off with the Bayham Badgers.  I didn't think he'd get out of it quite so fast though - I thought it was funny the way his career at sea came to an end- just as Allan set sail.   Unexpected turn of events.             -                                                                                                                                                                                            
ps  Bucket is a detective - before he comes on the scene, we need a crime.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #398 on: March 13, 2012, 12:23:18 AM »
Looks like this is a very long soup course or maybe we are into the Fish course with a wet walk by a shoeless Mademoiselle Hortense.

All we get is that Lady D. and her sister went their separate ways - you get the impression that Lady Dedlock and John Jarndyce knew one other quite well and were barely speaking of a shared history.

Dickens did himself proud describing the country side in fine weather and in a storm - his descriptions were so picturesque it was like a camera showing film in my head.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Laura

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #399 on: March 13, 2012, 06:49:28 AM »
Joan, I do think the nosegay was from Mr. Woodcourt to Esther.  I do think they have feelings for each other.  However, he is supposed to be “away a long, long time.”  A wife may find him.