Author Topic: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online (Read 204089 times)

JoanP · « **Reply #400 on:** March 13, 2012, 07:39:47 AM »

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Bleak House
by Charles Dickens

Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.

The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.

The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name. Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.

Caddy's Flowers
(click to enlarge)

INSTALMENT

VI
VII

DATE of PUBLICATION

Aug 1852
Sept 1852

CHAPTERS

17-19
20-22

DISCUSSION DATES

Mar.11-15
Mar.16-20

Little Church in the Park
(click to enlarge)

Some Topics to Consider

In this section Dickens sets up a lot of puzzles and throws out a lot of hints, without giving any answers, but we can have a lot of fun speculating. If you've read ahead, please don't give away anything for those of us who haven't. You can just chuckle with your superior knowledge.

Chapter XVII Esther's Narrative

1. Do you think that Richard's careless attitude regarding his education and future prospects is due to the Chancery suit or to the educational system of his time? Can you discern what Esther thinks of him?

2. "The virtues of the mothers shall occasionally be visited upon the children, as well as the sins of the fathers." What did Jarndyce mean by this when discussing Ada's future happiness with her? Do you think he knows Ada's father?

3. Did her Guardian reveal any new information to or about Esther, when he told her it was time to discuss her history with her?

4. Do you think we've heard the last of Allan Woodcourt as he heads off to India or China for a long voyage? Do you think he left that nosegay for Esther?

Chapter XVIII Lady Dedlock

1. Esther observes Richard's spending - his magic 'Fortunatus' purse. Do you see Richard's spending habits like Skimpoles' or do you see a difference?

2. Do you think there is more to the animosity between John Jarndyce's friend, Boythorn and Sir Leicester, than the disputed property line? Why are Jarndyce and the girls heading out to Lincolnshire to meet up with Boythorn?

3. How does Dickens heighten the intensity in the much anticipated meeting between Esther and Lady Dedlock in the little country church in Lincolnshire? How would you describe their reactions to one another when they came face to face?

4. What new information regarding a history between Jarndyce and Lady Dedlock is revealed at the end of this scene?

Chapter XIX Moving On

1. Did you expect Jo to have a hard time on the streets with that gold coin he received from Lady Dedlock? Why did the constable bring him to the Snagbys'? Is there any place in the world where Jo can move on?

2. What brought Mr. Guppy to the Snagbys' parlor, just in time to hear Mrs. Chadband's surprising revelation?

Related Links:
Characters in Bleak House by Groups; Map of London 1851 (double click); UNSOLVED MYSTERIES ; Interactive Map of London

Bleak House
"A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge.

DLs: JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi, JoanK

JoanP · « **Reply #401 on:** March 13, 2012, 08:16:50 AM »

Good morning, Laura! You're up early - first one here. You're right of course - Mr. Woodcourt is going to be away for a good long time. Mr. Dickens has not spent as much time on him as he has with minor characters, has he? There is that nosegay, but that's really not much, is it? Do you get the impression that Esther might be destined for old maidenhood? She doesn't know how to ...to flirt - to let a young man kno that she takes notice of him, or that she welcomes his attention. Which reminds me - where's Mr. Guppy? Is he still stalking? Or "lovesick", as Jude sees him? Or has his attention waned..

I had such high hopes when this Installment arrived - that at least some of the mysteries would be revealed. That's not to say I didn't enjoy this issue. John Jarndyce feels compelled to reveal Esther's history to her. Is this because they are going to Lincolnshire? Does Esther know anymore now than she did before their talk? Has her Guardian told her everything he knows?

Why this trip to Lincolnshire, so near to the Dedlock's home? Barbara, I feel we went beyond the soup course when it was revealed that John Jarndyce and Lady D. had a shared history, didn't you?
And yes, I think we all need to keep an eye on Mademoiselle Hortense as well, Barb. Dickens seems to be enjoying these big scenes in Lincolnshire, doesn't he?
Looking forward to everyone's impressions after reading these pages. Hope you are getting caught up, Sally -

Babi · « **Reply #402 on:** March 13, 2012, 09:20:19 AM »

BARB, I believe the fact that Ada and Richard are wards of John Jarndyce means they
are orphans. There is never any hint of keeping in touch with other family, so I
assume there was none.

Your comment got me to thinking, JONATHAN. Now, I'm guessing Woodcourt was removed
from the scene so that Dickens could develop other story lines before picking up on Esther/Woodcourt again. Otherwise, the readers would be expecting some further developments there.

I would like to believe that Richard will stick with his latest choice of profession, JOANP, but I can't. There has been no real change in his attitude that I can see.

LAURA, sounds very much like the 'mail-order brides' that went West for husbands after the civil war. So many of the young men had been killed back East, that prospects were very poor indeed.

Did anyone else find Mlle. Hortense' action as disturbing as I did? The woman has such intense, emotional reactions. It's a bit like disturbing a hornet's nest.

Mr. Jarndyce and his friend Boythorn are such very different a persons. Boythorn is loud, energetic, full of life, vigor, and violently exaggerated opinions. He might be intolerable, if he did not laugh so heartily at himself. I find I like him, noisy as he is.

JudeS · « **Reply #403 on:** March 13, 2012, 01:25:22 PM »

I propose another mystery.

Where did Richard and Ada spend their childhhod?
Why are they now wards of Mr. Jarndyce?

These questions come my way because Dicken's gives us so much info. on Esther's background and so little on theirs.

If we knew for sure that it was Richard's schooling that made him the way he is or some character flaw? Or both. Dicken's does say that there are many young men like Richard but what exactly happened that made him develop in this way?

Yes as was pointed out , Rick differs in character from Skimpole in that he only spends what he has and doesent occur debt.Yet he is still very young and perhaps we will seehim become more responsible.

On another topic I think that there were always newsboys selling papers in London and there
were little stands that sold papers as well.If you watch the Sherlock Holmes on PBS that is often the opening scenes. Boys shouting
READ ALL ABOUT IT!! BODY FOUND IN THE THAMES!!

Besides this I read somewhere that during the 1850s the British Postal System was becoming highly developed so many periodicals (monthlies) went out by mail.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #404 on:** March 13, 2012, 02:33:08 PM »

ah -

no pony express

but good info thanks - that matches the picture of English life shown to us in Lark Rise to Candleford which must be around the same time since the railroad was well on its way since 1830 with the greatest number of track laid hitting it peak in 1860.

Jonathan · « **Reply #405 on:** March 13, 2012, 02:43:29 PM »

Y'all find such interesting detail for comment and make such good points. What a tasty, appetising soup. Very promising. Dickens is sure to serve up a fantastic main course. When do we start looking for motivation? Or do we continue to wonder about character?

I'm going to differ with you, Jude, about Dickens giving us so much info on Esther. What do we know about her other than what she herself has told us? Is she modest, or is she boastful. And as if we don't have enough characters, she herself is seen as many people. As least everyone sees her differently at different times. For one she is Dame Durden. For another turns into Mother Hubbard. Then she becomes Mrs Shipton. 'My dear Minerva' (wisdom?) says Richard. Who were these people? And John Jarndyce frequently calls her 'little woman'. Is he suggesting maturity?

She certainly reads everyone else. On Richard: 'the uncertainties and delays of the Chancery suit had imparted to his nature something of the careless spirit of a gamester, who felt that he was part of a great gaming system.'

Nothiing is lost on the ever alert Esther. Such as Mr Jarndyce's thoughtful comment, aimed at Ada, but surely meaning Esther: 'I think it must be somewhere written that the virtues of the mothers shall, occasionally, be visited on the children....'

By now we have to consider Lady D in that role, don't we?

JoanP asks: 'Did anyone see her, besides Jo? We're told, near the end of Chapter 16, that Mr Tulkinghorn did not see her as she passed his window. That woman, 'an upper servant by her attire, yet, in her air and step...she is a lady.' Neither did she look at Mr T's window.

She read about little Jo in the newspaper. Everybody knows little Jo. Hers wasn't the first tip. He was getting them from Nemo all the time.

Mlle Hortense could have murder on her mind, being replaced like that.

JoanK · « **Reply #406 on:** March 13, 2012, 03:07:53 PM »

BARB: "Now, I'm guessing Woodcourt was removed
from the scene so that Dickens could develop other story lines before picking up on Esther/Woodcourt again. Otherwise, the readers would be expecting some further developments there."

That's exactly what I thought. In fact, he may have meant to leave her unmarried, and when he saw the reactions to her thought he'd better insert a husband.

What do you all think of Hortense? Is she a bit of a stock figure? The sly frenchwoman?

We'll see her again, soon. And meet the mysterious Bucket! I can't wait.

PatH · « **Reply #407 on:** March 13, 2012, 05:10:54 PM »

Hortense is somewhat of a stock figure (the volatile foreigner). I see her as a stock plot device too. She is angry and revengeful because she has been displaced. I'm guessing that somewhere down the road she is going to get even by revealing something or doing something that will mess up Lady Dedlock.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #408 on:** March 13, 2012, 07:44:17 PM »

JoanK that was Babi that remarked about Woodcourt being set aside for awhile - Woodcourt appears to be just one more ribbon to this story that we must follow to find the gift at the other end...

I Just thought it was comical imagining Hortense sloshing shoeless through the wet grass - and you just knew the grass had to be uneven and not like a manicured lawn so probably a foot high in places - there were no electric lawnmowers - not only wet feet but the bottom of her dress would be wet and stained from the wet grass - nothing like hurting yourself because of a hot temper. But then to see Lady D. just leave her there - oh my -

I was having fun with Dickens description of hot weather and the 6 week vacation taken during the season of heat. Changed it up to fit Austin but then we would not shut up tight anything leaving doors open for the slightest breeze unless the building was air conditioned - but it was fun using his litany to describe - this time he outdid himself. Not sure about this chapter - it almost seemed like a filler letting things marinate a bit.

We did see the same not knowing where we want the homeless except to move on - many towns still ask them to move on and the few that have some accommodations require they not sit on the sidewalk or lay on benches or sit for a time in the parks - we really have no solutions now any better than 1852 London do we...

JudeS · « **Reply #409 on:** March 13, 2012, 11:40:43 PM »

Jonathan
We disagree about Esther. I feel I know her better than any other character .
Because of that I had to write a ditty to convince you that you too know her quite well.She is, it seems, destined to be the main figure in the story.

Esther

This lady we can't roast.
She doesn't ever boast.
Eats her jam only on toast
Never from her spoon.
No man can make her swoon.
Always so prim and proper,
Really who can top her?
She's gold , others copper.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #410 on:** March 13, 2012, 11:56:07 PM »

Babi · « **Reply #411 on:** March 14, 2012, 08:34:35 AM »

I was also curious about those nicknames for Esther, JONATHAN. I did some checking. It seems
that Dame Durden was from a traditional song, a name for a housewife. Mother Shipton was
an even more interesting,...and real...person. Here's a link about her.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Shipton

I'm wondering now, if I could find those instances where Esther was called Mrs. Shipton, if they
were occasions when she had made some prediction as to the outcome of some situation.

JoanP · « **Reply #412 on:** March 14, 2012, 09:24:53 AM »

Good morning, Babi!

I've a footnote which describes the terms the members of the household affectionately call Esther -
"Nicknames referring to folklore mother-figures. The fairy who brushes the cobwebs off the sky is Cobweb, in Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream - one of the fairies whose task is to look after the needs of others. Mrs. Shipton, usually called Mother Shipton, was a Welsh prophetess whose predictions were popular in the early nineteenth century. Mother Hubbard, who attend to the needs of her dog... Dame Durden - heroine of a song about a countrywoman who employed five manservants who mated with her five maid servants on St. Valentine's Day."

Babi, let's watch to see if this describes Esther when the others refer to her as Mrs.Shipton. Here's one example - When she brought up the subject of Richard's career - asked him if he'd thought of a more congenial pursuit, he called her Mrs. Shipton and told her he'd been thinking of the law.

JoanP · « **Reply #413 on:** March 14, 2012, 11:35:43 AM »

I see Jude is up to it again - admirably defending Esther's solid gold qualities.

Jude, you know Esther so well. Was her reaction to meeting Lady Dedlock in that little church enough to indicate to you that Esther, on some level, recognizes her as her mother? Or was it simply that her face reminded her of her godmother's - and we know that Miss Barbary's sister gave birth to Esther? Do we know for certain that Lady Dedlock and Miss Barbary are sisters?

We have to watch Dickens - he's the master of suggestion. I'm reminded of the last private talk between Esther and her Guardian. Mr. Jarndyce explains the letter he had received nine years ago from a lady in seclusion, about an orphan girl then 12 years old.

Ada and Richard are orphans...cousins of John Jarndyce, and both are parties of the giant Jarndyce lawsuit. But Esther, what of Esther? Who is Esther? Do we have any real facts, yet?

In the third and final chapter of this Installment, we are left with a rather startling revelation from an unlikely source, a new character, who hasn't had much to say until now.... Do you think we are getting somewhere at last?

And then there's a matter of Hortense...angry Hortense. Will she turn on Lady Dedlock? Lady D, who shows such interest - in those young girls - - Rosa and then Ada? (Why do you suppose LadyD showed such interest in Ada and Rosa - and hardly a glance at Esther?)

The outrage - leaving Hortense out in the rain...

PatH · « **Reply #414 on:** March 14, 2012, 02:06:48 PM »

Esther's face to face encounters with Lady Dedlock are interesting. First, there is Esther's strong agitation and jumble of confused thoughts on first seeing Lady D. in church--a pretty strong hint of their probable connection. Second, we finally get a description of Lady D. from inside the head of another character. Sheltering in the lodge, Esther finds her very beautiful, and "She was as graceful as she was beautiful; perfectly self-possessed; and had the air, I thought, of being able to attract and interest anyone, if she had thought it worth her while."

One wonders how often she thinks it worth her while.

Jonathan · « **Reply #415 on:** March 14, 2012, 03:34:17 PM »

Beware, Barb. That 'filler' may turn out to be the glue holding it all together. The hints and suggestions are really scattered about. And I don't have to remind you that symbols are hidden everywhere. Would Dickens have been allowed to dally in Austin? Of course he was always on the move, but noticed everything in passing.

Esther. She doesn't ever boast. She's so prim and proper. And even if she did, why stop her. She does seem overwhelmed by strange feelings in the vicinity of Lady Dedlock. Is it the orphan or the daughter in her?

She does tell us a lot about herself. And the names she is given by others tell just as much. She is so helpful to others, gets so involved in everyone's affairs, and is concerned about their welfare. I'm beginning to think she is Dickens' answer to the overly agressive methods of Mrs Jellybe and Mrs Pardiggle. So many acts of kindness.

JudeS · « **Reply #416 on:** March 14, 2012, 03:53:40 PM »

JoanP
You asked an interesting question.The answer is dependent on a number of factore.
These are a few of them.("Did Esther, on some level recognize LadyD. as her mother?")
IF Lady Dedlock is her mother...
Did Lady D. come to visit E. when she was an infant.?
If she did visit, what age was E. when those visits stopped?
Did E's Godmother have a photo or a sketch of Lady D. hidden where E. might have seen it?
Was her Godmother Lady D.s sister? If so how much did they resemble each other in face and manner?
Is there something in E's own face that resembles Lady D. in some way?
Sometimes we meet a relative, unknown to us before, and we recognize a family resembalence..
Perhaps not in the exact way the person looks but in the movement of the head or the type of smile or frown.
Perhaps Guppy saw the resembalance in the portrait but wasn't sure if he imagined it. It piqued his curiosity and perhaps his desire for the lovely Esther.

I imagine that Dickens will reveal all eventually.

JoanP · « **Reply #417 on:** March 14, 2012, 03:58:17 PM »

Jude...if Esther recognized features in Lady Dedlock's face - from portraits that she'd seen before - or from a family resemblance (Miss Barbary), I have to wonder why Lady D reacts not at all upon meeting Esther.
I think it's funny, Pat, that Lady Dedlock finds not much worth her while, but she did seem taken with both Rosa and Ada. She didn't have the same reaction to Esther - as Esther had to her.

Jonathan, I've a note from Norton that Dickens based Esther on his sister-in-law, Georgina Hogarth, who excelled in managing his household. (His wife Catherine was not skilled in this area.) It was reported by a Leslie Staples that Miss Hogarth herself, late in life, remarked that although she strongly disliked to be identified with the character Agnes in David Copperfield, she did not object to being likened to Esther in Bleak House.

The inscription on her tombstone reads : 'In loving memory of GEORGINA HOGARTH, "AUNTY", Sister-In-Law of Charles Dickens.'

She was the younger sister of Dickens's wife Kate and, in spite of the breakdown of the marriage, remained in his household until his death. The novelist's will stipulated : "I give to my dear sister-in-law Georgina Hogarth the sum of £8,000 free from legacy duty ; all my personal jewellery and all the little familiar objects from my writing-table and my room, and all my private papers whatsoever and wheresoever, and I leave her my grateful blessing as the best and truest friend man ever had."

ps I can't find any indication that "Aunty" ever married...

Laura · « **Reply #418 on:** March 14, 2012, 05:06:10 PM »

While we still don’t know much about Esther, I feel like I know enough to feel that she will not become and old maid. Even though she is quiet, she is competent, she is not overbearing, she is not high maintenance, and she genuinely cares for others. People recognize that in her, and I feel certain that she would be the ideal wife for many men.

I am not convinced that Lady Dedlock is Esther’s mother; just not enough information for me yet. It doesn’t seem like we know anymore about Esther from what Mr. Jarndyce revealed. We only had a few small clues revealed to us in this section of reading. I am ready for some more plot development!

Mlle. Hortense is like a steaming pot ready to explode. I am keeping an eye on her, but for what, I am not exactly sure.

marcie · « **Reply #419 on:** March 14, 2012, 11:58:14 PM »

It seems like seeing Lady D for the first time in church, Esther thinks of herself looking in the mirror when she was very young. I am interpreting Esther's reaction as her recognizing--not on a fully conscious level--some of her own features in Lady D.

I think that Lady D purposely ignores Esther either to hide her secret or because she has very confused feelings about Esther. If she is Esther's mother, did she not know where Esther was living/is living now?

It sounds like Lady D, and her sister, knew Mr. Jarndyce long ago. Did Mr. Jarndyce not suspect that the person writing to him to ask him to be the guardian of the young orphan girl, was the sister of Lady D, who he knew fairly well? She said she was writing to him under an assumed name.

PatH · « **Reply #420 on:** March 15, 2012, 09:00:54 AM »

When Jarndyce told Esther "all he knew" about her, I had the definite feeling he was actually keeping something back, probably the identity of her mother. He knows or suspects.

Babi · « **Reply #421 on:** March 15, 2012, 09:36:24 AM »

Good example, JOANP, and does suggest the idea Mrs. Shipton nickname was used when Esther
guesses what Richard might be thinking. Actually, one doesn't have to be a prophetess
to guess what someone you know well will do, or is thinking.

I think Lady Dedlock would have loved to have a daughter. Sweet, pretty young ladies
like Rosa and Ada appeal strongly to her. As to Esther, perhaps the similarities in
appearnce to Lady Dedlock herself are a painful reminder of what she lost.

I think we must assume Mr. Jarndyce would have recognized the true name of Esther's
guardian. There would otherwise be no point in using an assumed name. She must know
Jarndyce to be a generous and philanthropic man as she confidently writes to him
about Esther's future, without telling him exactly who Esther is.

JoanP · « **Reply #422 on:** March 15, 2012, 09:52:00 AM »

These people may be better actors than we'd expect. Lady D. shows very little interest in Esther - and yet has been drawn to Rosa and Ada - we had to note her extreme boredom - except when she notices these two girls. Is she really able to hide her emotions if she recognizes her daughter - in the same way Esther reacted to her?

And what of Jarndyce, Marcie? If he knows the identity of Esther's mother, did he set up this visit to Boythorn's to see how they would react to one another? Would he be that cruel to Esther?

I'm going to say that neither one is going to win an Oscar - I don't think that Jarndyce knows anything more about Lady Dedlock in connection with Esther. PatH, he might have been holding something back when talking to her, but I really don't think he knew that Esther's aunt, Miss Barbary, was Lady Dedlock's sister.
And maybe you're right, Laura. Maybe Lady Dedlock doesn't recognize Esther because Esther is not her daughter.

Daughter or not, why do you think she (Lady Dedlock) "took a graceful leave of Ada - none of me"(Esther) - before saying her goodbyes to Mr. Jarndyce. I thought that very strange. Even if she didn't know Esther, Lady Dedlock is usually the model of politeness.

JoanP · « **Reply #423 on:** March 15, 2012, 10:10:02 AM »

We're posting together, Babi. Can't you picture Dickens readers having this very same conversation as they pool their impressions from these passages? I see Lady Dedlock drawn to these two pretty young girls, knowing she had a daughter about their age , dreaming her daughter would look like one of them.

He sure knows how to "Move On" to the next installment - which he did with the last chapter of this one - "Moving On." I was beginning to wonder why we had to listen to the sermonizing by the pompous Rev. Chadband. I cannot imagine how Mr. Snagsby could stand him - or poor long-suffering Mrs. Chadband for that matter. She knows to keep her mouth shut, rather than give him any opening for a new topic. But suddenly there is a knock on the door - and in marches the constable, with poor Jo...and Mr. Guppy too. The scene is set for the silent Mrs. Chadband to open her mouth and reveal the fact that will make up for the disappointing revelations in the first two chapters - and assure the readers will return for the Seventh Installment.

What else did you learn from Chapter XIX, the Moving On chapter? Are you ready to move on tomorrow?

bookad · « **Reply #424 on:** March 15, 2012, 10:39:05 AM »

hi there

just wanted to get my 2cents worth in before we move on the next group of chapters
the 'Norton' edition makes it easy to pinpoint areas of my interests as they number the lines like "The Odessey" was in Homer's writings from last years classics group

what a climate the area of Britain must be --

Quote

well stocked orchard...kitchen garden...lime tree walk...cherry trees...peaches...sweet smell of herbs and all kinds of wholesome growth (to say nothing of the neighbouring meadows where the hay was carrying) made the whole air a great nosegay

--the picture Dickens presents including all the senses

Nortons states pg 223

Quote

high up, a disused nail and scrap of list

list = cloth am wondering if that was how our word 'list' came to be???

love what must be Mr Boythorn's sense of humour

Quote

a sentry in a smock-frock, day and night, whose duty was supposed to be, in cases of aggression, immediately to ring a large bell hung up there for the purpose, to unchain a great bull-dog established in a kennel as his ally, and generally to deal destruction on the enemy. Not content with these precautions, Mr Boythorn had himself composed and posted there, on painted boards to which his name was attached in large letters, the following solemn warnings: “Beware of the Bull-dog. He is most ferocious. Lawrence Boythorn.” “The blunderbus is loaded with slugs. Lawrence Boythorn.” “Man-traps and spring-guns are set here at all times of the day and night. Lawrence Boythorn.” “Take notice. That any person or persons audaciously presuming to trespass on this property, will be punished with the utmost severity of private chastisement, and prosecuted with the utmost rigour of the law. Lawrence Boythorn.” These he showed us, from the drawing-room window, while his bird was hopping about his head; and he laughed, “Ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha!” to that extent as he pointed them out, that I really thought he would have hurt himself.

I really enjoy what ever Mr. Skimpole has to say...how he rationalizes the world revolves around him and for his interests...good thing we all don't think that way
Mr. Skimpole's remarks...with a straight face I imagine
“

Quote

I take it that my business in the social system is to be agreeable; I take it that everybody’s business in the social system is to be agreeable. It’s a system of harmony, in short. Therefore, if you object, I object."

and

Quote

“Enterprise and effort,” he would say to us (on his back), “are delightful to me. I believe I am truly cosmopolitan. I have the deepest sympathy with them. I lie in a shady place like this, and think of adventurous spirits going to the North Pole, or penetrating to the heart of the Torrid Zone, with admiration. Mercenary creatures ask, ‘What is the use of a man’s going to the North Pole? What good does it do?’ I can’t say; but, for anything I can say, ...he may go for the purpose — though he don’t know it — of employing my thoughts as I lie here. "

and

Quote

they people the landscape for me, they give it a poetry for me, and perhaps that is one of the pleasanter objects of their existence.”

I love the descriptions of 'the storm'. and its aftermath..

Quote

.....watching the storm. It was grand to see how the wind awoke, and bent the trees, and drove the rain before it like a cloud of smoke; and to hear the solemn thunder, and to see the lightning; and, while thinking with awe of the tremendous powers by which our little lives are encompassed, to consider how beneficent they are, and how upon the smallest flower and leaf there was already a freshness poured from all this seeming rage, which seemed to make creation new again.

just beginning chapter 19 today

Deb

PatH · « **Reply #425 on:** March 15, 2012, 11:25:40 AM »

After Skimpole makes this fine speech about "enterprise and Effort", Esther says: "I always wondered on these occasions whether he ever thought of Mrs. Skimpole and the children, and in what point of view they presented themselves to his cosmopolitan mind. So far as I could understand, they rarely presented themselves at all." Humph.

I'm beginning to think that whether he means it that way or not, it's an act of charity toward the rest of the family for Jarndyce to put up with Skimpole. It keeps him out of worse trouble. At least while he's living off the luxury of Jarndyce and Boythorn he isn't buying furniture with money he doesn't have.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #426 on:** March 15, 2012, 12:32:21 PM »

Talk about poetry Bookad - thanks for repeating that for us - you can read the beat in every paragraph so they are like small poems.

While waiting for the storm to abate Lady D. and John Jarndyce are either each very cagy with what they are saying to each other or we can take them at their word and where the person who asked him to take on the care of Esther was concerned for her they did it anonymously - so to surmise it was Lady D. is simply us surmising - we do not know any of the circumstances of the Esther's birth to know what Lady D. does or does not know about her.

Her not knowing what became of Nemo who it does appear to have been someone she loved from her reaction at the cemetery gate coupled with our knowing women of comfortable means were so called sheltered and protected by keeping from them information - and then her character is flittering here and there to engage in fashionable intelligence which is a pursuit of knowledge - if knowledge is denied all the more reason to be driven for knowledge for its own sake however, she may not be the one who asked John Jarndyce to care for Esther - she may not even realize Esther is her child.

If her child is not with her at Chesney Wold that says a child would be an embarrassment to the Dedlock family and so I could see Leicester having a hand in what happened to Esther - as a man much in love with his wife as it says and tied strongly to his family's heritage he would do the 'right' thing so that the family name and his wife were not disgraced.

JudeS · « **Reply #427 on:** March 15, 2012, 01:14:06 PM »

As to Lady Ds reaction to Esther...
If I was she I would react in the same way.
What shame,what misgivings must be flowing through her upon seeing the grown and talented Esther who she feels has no need for her.
Although giving up a child feels right at the moment it is done there always remains at least a modicum of sorrow and "what ifs".

Lady D also does not know what will be the reaction of Esther if and when she finds out about her mother. John Jarndyce did not reveal or hint who that mother might be. Esther does not suspect who her mother is and is certainly not really prepared for the revelation. And yet in her inner self she sees something familiar about Lady D.

Dickens is keeping us in suspense as is his wont.

PatH · « **Reply #428 on:** March 15, 2012, 04:48:47 PM »

Yes, he's good at knowing how much to hint and how much to leave unsaid.

Jonathan · « **Reply #429 on:** March 15, 2012, 05:32:33 PM »

Dazzling quotes, Deb. That last one especially, about the raging storm, ending with fresh flowers and a new creation. That sounds promising to me. A happy ending to this storm of mystification and suspense.

You will enjoy Chapter 19. A brilliant piece of writing. Lawyers turn out to be human beings after all. Courtroom demeanours are shed when they go on vacation. Chancery is deserted, with nothing much happening until the Snagsbys have some company in. Mr and Mrs Chadband.

Jo, the know-nothing crossing sweeper is definitely the star in this chapter. He shares the stage with others but the spotlight is on him. He is harrassed by police, preached to by a minister of religion, and cross-examined by the clever Mr Guppy, who gets just enough information out of him to tantalize the ladies into wanting to know more of another lady seeking out a burial place. Jo does move on, escapes, to have deep thoughts at Blackfriars Bridge about the Cross on St Paul's Cathedral while munching on his crust of bread.

What a shame to read of how everyone got a piece of that 'sov-ring'.

The mother/daughter mystery certainly has us speculating. I liked Laura's reminder that Mlle Hortense is 'like a steaming pot ready to explode'. She has to make way for a younger woman. Lady D seems to be looking for a 'daughter'.

Thanks, JoanP, for the information about Georgina Hogarth. The Dickens' household does sound interesting. I read somewhere recently that Dickens' wife Catherine saved all her letters from her husband with instructions that they be deposited in the British Museum. The world should know that he loved her once.

PatH · « **Reply #430 on:** March 15, 2012, 05:37:45 PM »

We move on tomorrow, so I'd better say something about Moving On. It seems to me in this one Dickens stretches the long arm of coincidence so far he almost pulls it out of its socket.

The policeman, stopping Jo on the street, finds a suspicious amount of money on him. Jo, needs someone to vouch for him. Guppy, happening to be passing by, says that Snagsby knows him well. Everyone goes to Snagsby's, where the Chadbands are taking tea. Jo tells his story of the mysterious woman in a veil, who wants to see Nemo's dwelling place, burial place, and Snagsby's house/office, and gives Jo a sovereign.

Thus the previously secret incident becomes known to a remarkable number of interested parties:

Snagsby, who used to give Nemo work.

Guppy, who is in love with Esther, maybe suspects something about Lady Dedlock, and is part of the law firm of Kenge and Carboy, also interested.

Mrs. Chadband, who had charge of Esther at one point.

I can swallow the others, since they're pretty local, but Mrs. Chadband is a bit much.

Still, it's setting us up for a number of possible plot complications.

pedln · « **Reply #431 on:** March 15, 2012, 05:47:05 PM »

Jude, I’m glad you asked, as I’ve been wondering the same thing – are Lady D’s sister and Esther’s godmother one and the same. Miss Barbary? Who kept saying to the child – “Esther, do this, Esther do that.”

Was it Alice who said,”Curiouser and curiouser?” And so Bleak House has become. Someone mentioned earlier that Dickens doesn’t have characters without a reason for them being there, and that certainly is showing. I was beginning to tire of that pompous old Chadband, until we found out about his wife’s connection with Kenge and Carboy. And that sly Guppy will not let that bit of info go to waste. He has been well-rewarded for his good deed of sticking up for Jo. But, can we trust him? He is becoming something of an enigma.

And poor Jo. True to his knowing nothink. I wondered when Lady D gave him the gold coin if that would get him into trouble.

JoanK · « **Reply #432 on:** March 15, 2012, 05:55:56 PM »

PatH: "it's setting us up for a number of possible plot complications."

Yes, that is what we're going to get, I imagine.

And on we go. There will be new questions in the heading. And we get a feel for what lawyers do in the lazy summer when court is not in session.

Some more new characters, and some more new mysteries hinted at in chapter 22. Our list of mysteries will get as long as the book. Luclily, we finally meet our detective, Bucket.

Enjoy!

JoanK · « **Reply #433 on:** March 15, 2012, 05:58:25 PM »

Pedlin: "I wondered when Lady D gave him the gold coin if that would get him into trouble."

Yes, she didn't know enough about his circumstances to realize (if she cared) that she was setting him up. He's lucky he didn't get hurt.

JoanP · « **Reply #434 on:** March 15, 2012, 08:35:17 PM »

Quote

"It was my father's words that propelled me into this read, and I am amazed at the dimension of the world and characters in this novel."

Deb, your observations would have been music to Charles Dickens' ears. Someone who appreciates the music and the poetry of his writing. It's more than the mystery and romance that keeps us turning the pages - though I'll admit they command our interest. Your father prepared you well for Dickens...even though it took you a while to open one of his novels.

I'm wondering how many of his readers in 1852 waited impatiently for the next installment to experience the man's command of the language and powers of observation...or were they simply interested in the plot?

Thank you so much for bringing examples in your posts - so we can focus and linger over them like - "...all kinds of wholesome growth (to say nothing of the neighbouring meadows where the hay was carrying) made the whole air a great nosegay."
As Barbara says - "you can read the beat in every paragraph so they are like small poems.

I just want to be sure to thank you and to ask you to continue with these observations. It's easy to read them, but not slow down while going after the plot. When you finish Chapter XIX, we'll look forward to hearing from you. I'd be interested to hear what you think of Mr. Chadband's comments. I need a translation!

JoanP · « **Reply #435 on:** March 15, 2012, 08:49:19 PM »

Quote

"A happy ending to this storm of mystification and suspense."

Jonathan, I don't think it's too much to expect a happy ending from Dickens. Can you think of a single Dickens' novel that did not end happily? Does happily mean that Esther will find love and marriage?

I can't get past thinking about the parallels between Dickens and his young sister-in-law, Georgina, who efficiently runs his household - and John Jarndyce and his young ward, Esther Summerson who does the same. Both are admiring and loyal and don't expect that much from life. Georgina was content to spend her life in this role - until Dickens died. She said when he died that she did not mind that Dickens based Esther's character on herself. I'm thinking that he approves of this relationship and might just leave Esther with Mr. Jarndyce at the novel's end.

PatH · « **Reply #436 on:** March 15, 2012, 09:09:44 PM »

Georgina didn't mind being Esther, but she did mind being thought to be Agnes in David Copperfield. That leads me to wonder how Dickens' wife felt about being thought to be the witless Dora in David C.

JoanP · « **Reply #437 on:** March 15, 2012, 09:35:28 PM »

Dora was David's first wife - Agnes followed married him when Dora died. hmm... There is a story, just a story that tells of a diamond ring Dickens is said to have given to Georgina - before he took up with the young actress, Ellen Ternan, who is the real reason his wife, Catherine Hogarth left him. No wonder Georgina didn't like being cast as Agnes!
.
PatH, I am sitting here in front of the computer screen smiling at your post - Dickens "stretches the long arm of coincidence so far he almost pulls it out of its socket..." But don't you love it? Pedln notes - "Dickens doesn’t have characters without a reason for them being there." That is surely evident in the Moving On chapter - and they all have a part in advancing the plot.

Nothing odd about Mrs. Snagsby inviting her favorite clergyman to tea. Nothing unusual in his wife coming along too. She sits quietly throughout, whispering sometimes to Mrs. Snagsby.

Nothing unusual about the constable picking up Jo - only natural that he thinks Jo is a pickpocket...where else would he get those half crowns. When Jo tried to explain - remember Mr. Snagsby had slipped him a half crown - it was not unusual that he told the constable Mr. Snagsby would vouch for him to avoid getting locked up. It wasn't surprising that they borh turned up at the Snagbys'.

Now it starts to stretch - just a little. Mr. Guppy is bored. It's the slow time, summer break. He knows Snagsby - and is interested in what's going on at his door...and since he's also a lawyer with Kenge and Conboy, he begins to question Jo.
Now here comes the stretch - Mrs. Chadband knew Mr. Kenge years before she married her husband. In fact, Mr. Kenge brought her a young girl to care for. Isn't this a great stage moment - the moment she pronounces this little girl's name!

We don't see Mr. Guppy's reaction, do we? That will be for another day. Mr. Chadband wants to meet again with Jo...maybe Mrs. Chadband will expand her story then. I don't know...I'm willing to accept these coincidences, Pat. Life can be stranger than fiction - or something like that.

Babi · « **Reply #438 on:** March 16, 2012, 09:02:48 AM »

It occurs to me, JOANP, that Lady Dedlock sees Esther as a kind of upper level servant
to Ada. If so, then she would take no notice of Esther. Servants were not 'guests',
they were a sort of necessary appendage.

Rev. Chadband does rather set one's teeth on edge, doesn't he? I'm afraid my opinion
of Mrs. Snagsby's intelligence and good sense dropped considerably at this point.

I greatly enjoyed your excerpts, DEB. I can see I did not give them enough attention
as I was reading. I think I was too aggravated by Mr. Skimpole to 'listen' to him properly.

I agree, Mrs. Chadband's history is stretching coincidence quite a bit. But then,
coincidences are part of life, and this bit is bound to be useful to Dickens as we
go along.

I think it would be more accurate to say that things end favorably for Dickens'
favorites, the character he is using as good examples of humanity. Other characters
may end sadly, but nobly, or get their come-uppance...to our applause!

JoanP · « **Reply #439 on:** March 16, 2012, 09:21:52 AM »

Well, that's a possible reason for not saying farewell to Esther as she stood there with Ada and John Jarndyce, Babi.
Esther would be a nobody to Lady Dedlock. Ada Clare's name may be familiar to her - she is a Jarndyce cousin after all.

Your comment on Dickens' endings just reminded me of his half-finished Mystery of Edwin Drood, which we discussed here several years ago along with Matthew Pearl's The Last Dickens. I can't wait to see the Masterpiece production of that novel in April. It was maddening - a real mystery, a murder story- never completed. Not only that, but Dickens apparently didn't share his ending with anyone, not even the illustrator. I don't understand what happened to his blue worksheets he usually kept with him as he wrote. Maybe someday they will show up and the guessing can be over as to what really happened to Edwin Drood...

I'm going to keep in mind that "things usually end favorabley for Dickens' favorites" - for Edwin Drood, and for Esther Summerson. Maybe in ways we are not expecting...

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