Author Topic: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online  (Read 203461 times)

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #960 on: May 03, 2012, 10:36:47 AM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in
 
Bleak House                            
by Charles Dickens
                   

  

Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.

The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.

The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name.  Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
 
  
 
Mrs. Bagnet Returns from her Expedition
 (click to enlarge)

 

INSTALMENT

XVII
XVIII
 


 DATE of PUBLICATION
 
 July 1853
Aug. 1853


 
 CHAPTERS

54-56
 57-59  
   
 

 DISCUSSION DATES

May 6-May 10

 May 11- May 15
 
 The Lonely Figure
(click to enlarge)
               Some Topics to Consider


Chapter LIV  Springing a Mine

1.  What was you reaction to Detective Bucket's confrontation with Smallweed?

2.  Bucket confronts Mademoiselle Hortense. What new view of the French do you  find here?  How does that fit with other comments we've read re. the French?

3.  Detective Bucket is always very formal in addressing Sir Leicester. How does Dickens explain that?


Chapter LV  Flight

1.  What do you think of Mrs. Bagnet's decision to override George's wishes?  Do you agree with her assessment of his situation?

2. Did you feel Dickens handled the reunion of mother and son well? Are you  satisfied with George's explanation?

3.  How do you see Mr. Guppy's last interview with Lady Dedlock? Does it alter  your view of him?

  Chapter LVI  Pursuit

1.  All is revealed. What is the immediate result with Sir Dedlock? With Lady Dedlock?

2.  What new role does George Rouncewell assume at this time?

3.  How does Detective Bucket impress you as a detective?  How does he compare with your favorite fictional detectives of later days?
        
 

                                                  

 Bleak House
 "A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge.


DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi,   JoanK  




JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #961 on: May 03, 2012, 10:52:18 AM »
It's a good thing Allan Woodcourt has promised Esther to stay close to Richard.  Richard needs a friend, other than Mr. Vholes.  Allan is a rather powerful ally in his own way.  I loved it when he told Mr. Vholes that he has no interest in anything Vholes had to say. And did you notice that he didn't stoop to offer Vholes money to tell him Richard's address, in spite of Vholes' telling him how funds were needed?

Babi, l even if  the Jarndyce vs. Jarndyce case came turned out to be in Richard's favor, surely lawyer's fees, such as Mr. Vholes' will make sure that Richard will have to continue with suits against the lawyers forever after.  I can't see a bright future for Richard - or for Ada.  Unless something out of the ordinary occurs.  Was Mr. Tulkinghorn behind Mr. Vholes' involvement in the case?  Does anyone remember? - I thought T was involved somehow.  I wonder if his death will have an impact on the case, don't you? Maybe things will get moving now.  We have only a few chapters to go...

Marcie, let's say Allan does care for Esther.  Why isn't he making that clear to her?  Do you think he knows about her engagement?   

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #962 on: May 03, 2012, 10:56:40 AM »
JoanP says: " let's say Allan does care for Esther.  Why isn't he making that clear to her?  Does he know about her engagement? "

Allan went to India(?) to try to earn more money but did not come back a rich man. Now that he is back,  his practice does not seem to be doing any better financially than it was before he left. I don't think  he wants to take Esther away from the financial protection of Mr. Jarndyce without more to offer her.

Also, Esther isn't giving him many, if any, clues about her romantic feelings toward him.

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #963 on: May 03, 2012, 11:18:38 AM »
Such irony then!  Mr. Jarndyce wanting to find a way to make Allan rich... "rich enough to have his own happy home."


BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #964 on: May 03, 2012, 01:09:52 PM »
Talk about kicking a tin can after it is bent, used, but golly, still lying there -  I do see that we can learn and that is why many of us read - and so in the name of further exploration, I think the 'Rich as a Jew' statement reminds me of today how some say in Awe that we have a Blackman as our President and others say Sarcastically we have a Blackman as President.  

As to the view of Jews in Britain during the nineteenth century - it appears change was taking place and Dickens was caught in that change - found this that is further information - It appears in the early part of the nineteenth century publicly Jews were a people apart because laws forced Jews into jobs that dressing and acting like Fagin could be an easy stereotype.  And so with that view yes, 'Rich as a Jew' would be a unthinkable put down - however, this information may give us another picture of as you say the only few words in Bleak House that refer to Jews.

Sir Robert Peel, an avid anti-Semite and Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1834 to 1848, articulated the period's feelings towards Jews: "The Jew is not a degraded subject of the state; he is rather regarded in the light of an alien- he is excluded because he will not amalgamate with us in any of his usages or habits."

The hostility towards Jews was caused by their jobs. In London, most Jews were not allowed to open shops or attend college. This forced them to become money lenders and clothes dealers. Church laws prevented Christians from lending money at interest, but these laws did not apply to Jews. The phobia surrounding Jews led to public opinion that every Jew was scary, mean, money hungry, and would not hesitate to cheat a Christian. Jews were also separated as a result of their religion. They were treated as foreigners and persecuted because they held fast to their religion and traditions by refusing to become Christians during a time when Christianity was the dominant religion.

Quote
The attitude of early to mid-nineteenth century Victorians from the 1830s to the 1850s changed the social opinions of Jews. A growing literary trend of a sympathetic treatment of Jews, many individuals modified their traditional views. These changing social patterns and Dickens's communication with Mrs. Davis, a Jewish woman, directly influenced Our Mutual Friend.

Mrs. Davis wrote to Dickens in June 1863 stating, "that Charles Dickens the large hearted, whose works please so eloquently and so nobly for the oppressed of his country . . . has encouraged a vile prejudice against the despised Hebrew." Dickens responded by stating that he had always spoken well of Jews and held no prejudice against them. Fagin, in Oliver Twist, was a Jew "because it unfortunately was true of the time to which that story refers that class of criminal almost invariably was Jewish." Mrs. Davis replied by beseeching Dickens to "examine more closely into the manners and character of the British Jews and to represent them as they really are."

In his article, "Dickens and the Jews," Harry Stone claims that this "incident apparently brought home to Dickens the irrationality of some of his feelings about Jews; at any rate, it helped, along with the changing times, to move him more swiftly in the direction of active sympathy for them."

While in Oliver Twist, Fagin is portrayed as money hungry and ruthless, Dickens later creates the character Riah in Our Mutual Friend. Riah's is also a moneylender and could be construed as an early Victorian stereotype; however, as Harry Stone argues, "Riah's stereotype was not a stereotype, but a means of reversing it."

Challenging Jewish stereotypes in Our Mutual Friend, "Riah", whose name is said to be derived from Hebrew rē'eh (friend), is a profoundly sympathetic character, especially in his relationship with Lizzie and Jenny Wren. Riah becomes their protector. Jenny calls him her "fairy godmother" and Lizzie refers to Riah as her "protector."
  
 Instead of being stingy and mean, Riah shows his charity by helping Lizzie find a job in the country - Riah is not out only for himself like Dickens's previous depiction of Jews. Riah risks his own welfare to keep Lizzie's hidden location a secret from Fledgeby. - Riah "the Jew" is not money hungry; his Christian master Fledgeby is.

Granted, the letter from Mrs. Davis was written after Bleak House was published. therefore, it can be a toss up, since views were changing, what Dickens meant with his one line reference to the wealth of Jews as a great mark of achievement - I still cannot get out of my mind that Dickens was influenced by the news and would know the elevation to peerage for the wealthiest man in England who was Jewish along with another Jewish man sitting in Parliament.

Regardless, today we can read, as you say JoanP and based on where we are at we can take from a novel what we will - There is a quote I like from Cormac McCarthy that for me expresses the heart of most people and how I perceive the heart of Dickens..."No creature can learn that which his heart has no shape to hold."


“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Jonathan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #965 on: May 03, 2012, 02:25:18 PM »
I'm sorry about the 'left guessing' comment. It was a 'thoughtless inclusion' like Dickens's  use of  'the rich Jew.' Bleak House is brought to a very satisfactory ending, with nothing left to guess about, except perhaps about the meaning of it all, or, what is he going to write next? Or, what am I going to read next. I've acquired half a dozen of his books since we've started discussing him, as well as a couple of biographies. I get very ambitiious with every book discussion.

How could Dickens do that to his friend Fagin? How could he do it to his friend Leigh Hunt in Bleak House in the character of Skimpole? Everything and everybody is grist for an author's mill, it seems. Actually I assumed that Smallweed is Jewish, with those numerous mentions of his skullcap. It must have been a popular stereotype to use in the fiction writing of the time. Hurrah for George Eliot for setting the record straight.

Can Richard recover from the effect of getting mired in the lawsuit? Not likely. He's permanently scarred. Like Esther, the victim of uncontrolled disease.

Jonathan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #966 on: May 03, 2012, 02:44:25 PM »
Mr Jarndyce wants to make a rich man of Woodcourt? Many people have come to him for help, as we have seen. And he is always eager to help. Esther is only one of his good deeds. He has always wanted her happiness. He's concerned about her welfare. Can we see Mrs Woodcourt coming to Mr Jarndyce to see if he can do something for her son. We read about, we hear from Esther, that she has again come to town and is staying at the Jarndyce place. I suspect some matchmaking on the part of one or the other.

JoanK

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #967 on: May 03, 2012, 03:30:21 PM »
BARB: fascinating information about the flying footmen and about the change in Dickens' attitude toward Jews. Thank you for your good research. Could you post your sources?

JoanK

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #968 on: May 03, 2012, 03:35:58 PM »
I'm glad to hear that Dickens, once he had more knowledge and personal contact with Jews, was able to see his prejudice and reverse it. There are a few people who, for some reason, seem to have a deep need to find someone to look down on. But for every one of those, there are many, like Dickens, who go along with it from lack of thought, not realizing the harm they do.

JoanK

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #969 on: May 03, 2012, 03:42:51 PM »
I think that Esther is still as attracted to Woodhouse as ever but, feeling it's impossible that he should care for her in that way, is trying to suppress her feelings. She "loves Jarndyce as a daughter, and is stuggling against the sadness she feels at (as she thinks) giving up the possability of another kind of love. So she is attracted to Woodhouse, but tries to avoid him, is glad he is not repulsed by her (as Guppy was) and tries to be glad to settle for pity.

I doubt Dickens will leave her like this.

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #970 on: May 04, 2012, 09:08:07 AM »
  Interesting, JOANP. It's good to know Dickens would go back and change something
in one of his books when he learned better. I wish I could do the same for some of
my mistakes.
  As I recall, it was Skimpole who introduced Richard to Vholes. His motives were
simple...money changed hands! 
 
Quote
Such irony then!  Mr. Jarndyce wanting to find a way to make Allan rich... "rich
enough to have his own happy home."
Do you think it's irony?  I suspect that Jarndyce is not blind to Esther's feelings, or Allan's. I believe he is happily plotting to play fairy godmother to Esther once more, and ensure her happiness.

Quote
I get very ambitiious with every book discussion
. Jonathan.
  Don't we all!




 
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #971 on: May 04, 2012, 10:06:22 AM »
Jonathan - before I forget again - the close vote between Bleak House and Great Expectations back in February has not been forgotten  - and the promise to do Great Expectations too.  It's on the schedule for July.  Are you in?  The PBS adaptation was so unlike Dickens' novel, I think we owe him a close look.

Aha, Babi - you see John Jarndyce plotting to ensure Esther's happiness - if he makes Allan rich, he'll be good enough for Esther...meanwhile Mrs. Woodcourt looks down on Esther as not a good enough wife for her son.  Well, yes, that's even more ironic.  

 It gets better.
 
Quote
Esther says "I feared I might not quite have been all that I meant to be since the letter and the answer."


  Esther harbors these unexamined feelings for Allan, while beating up on herself   for not feeling, or acting like someone who has just accepted a marriage proposal - a romantic proposal, wasn't it?  Maybe if she rereads the letter more carefully, she'll see that John Jarndyce has asked her merely to be the "Mistress of Bleak House" -  Can you forsee a scenario in which Esther remains Mistress of Bleak House, but also wife of Allan Woodcourt?  Is that what John Jarndyce has in mind for her?


JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #972 on: May 04, 2012, 11:12:35 AM »
Will Tulkinghorn's death  prove to be the impetus that brings Jarndyce vs Jarndyce to a conclusion?  It seems that all can be  resolved, once this happens - though I don't know how.  Mr. George is accused of Tulkinghorn's death.  No one really believes he did it.    Mere truth is not enough.  He needs a lawyer. Mr. George knows a lawyer can get him off - even if he's guilty.  Would rather hang.  So how is he persuaded to defend himself?

Esther realizes that if Mr. George didn't do it - and a woman who looked much like herself was seen at the crime scene...Dickens tells us Esther is frightened.  Do you think she believes her mother could have done it?  Or does it mean that she's afraid her mother will be blamed for the death?

JudeS

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #973 on: May 04, 2012, 12:16:27 PM »
Re Esther's fears.
When someone you know, be he friend or enemy is murdered you are struck by fear. The fear is usually not related to the name of the perpetrator but to : Who will be next?  Am I in danger?

I don't think Esther is aware enough of the ins and outs of the politicking and underhanded behavior of Tulkinghorn to understand why he was really murdered.
Not knowing ,'WHY" increases the persons fear meter.

She may be as worried about her Mother being the next victim as she is of her being the perpetraator..if that thought occurred to her at all.

About the jewish question in England at the time.  this was the period that Disraeli, an Anglicied
politician, born Jewish was very prominent in British Politics. He was one of the first Jewsish(or born Jewish) men to succeed in penetrating the rampant anti-semitism in the political sphere.

Disraeli was a very forward looking man and helped to make many changes in the British system that benifitted the average citizen.
And would you believe it? In his spare time he wrote and published  many novels!

Laura

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #974 on: May 04, 2012, 03:12:30 PM »
I thank everyone for your well researched comments.

Poor Richard.  I don’t see that he can recover from being sucked into the lawsuit.  The only hope I see is if it were settled immediately.  Even if he doesn’t come out of the settlement with any money left, at least he would be young enough to pursue some kind of career.  And Mr. Jarndyce would still be around to help place him in one.  I think Dickens is making Richard an example of the type of people he talked about in the beginning of the book --- those who get caught up in the web of the lawsuit and can’t find their way out.

JoanP asked, “Can you forsee a scenario in which Esther remains Mistress of Bleak House, but also wife of Allan Woodcourt?  Is that what John Jarndyce has in mind for her?”
This is a very good question.  It had not occurred to me that the positions were not mutually exclusive!  I bet there is a scenario, but I am not sure what that scenario is.  This gives me food for thought as I read on though.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #975 on: May 04, 2012, 03:21:30 PM »
What night did Esther and Caddy go back and re-visit Richard and Ada - could it be that Esther was concerned she would be accused.

Laura yes, yes, yes, Richard is the stereotype for the quote - "those who get caught up in the web of the lawsuit and can’t find their way out." I wonder how John Jarndyce obtained his money that he seems to be very comfortable without the proceeds of the lawsuit.

JoanK lots of sites - here are a few that I remember visiting -
http://tinyurl.com/6q4euuo
http://tinyurl.com/6td7xtz
http://www.dickens-literature.com/Our_Mutual_Friend/index.html
http://tinyurl.com/7wkbqbr
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5178-dickens-charles
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/a-short-history-of-anglojewry-the-jews-in-britain-16562006-482185.html
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PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #976 on: May 04, 2012, 05:15:48 PM »
Esther's mother told her that her secret wasn't safe, that Tulkinghorn was close to finding it out, and was her pitiless enemy in this respect.  Esther was afraid either that her mother had actually done the murder or would be accused of it or that the secret would come out in the course of the investigation.

JoanK

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #977 on: May 04, 2012, 06:21:24 PM »
Thanks Barb. You really did a lot of research. We have to be careful about quoting someone without giving the source: some people can really get upset about that.

JoanK

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #978 on: May 04, 2012, 06:23:18 PM »
I hope that both Woodcourt and Jarndice can wind up happy without Esther having to feel she hurt either. We'll see.

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #979 on: May 05, 2012, 07:57:12 AM »
Poor Esther!  What's worse?  Believing that your  mother might be a murderer's next vicitim - or believing that your own mother might be a  murderer herself?!

Esther  doesn't believe for a minute that George did it - but when George told her saw someone in a black fringed cloak, a woman who looked so much like Esther herself, outside of Tulkinghorn's minutes before the murder...of course she's frightened, who wouldn't be?

Does Inspector Bucket believe that George committed the murder?  Dickens describes him as a "terrible avenger."  And yet he is amiable and friendly, almost reaussuring towards George.  And why is he spending so much time going through the Dedlock's home - questionning the servants about Lady Dedlock's comings and goings?  Despite this apparent shifting of the blame from George to Lady D, do you think any of Dickens readers believe, at this point, that the accusing finger stops with the Lady?

Bucket's finger - you can't help but compare it to the Roman soldier's finger - pointing down from Tulkinghorn's ceiling... 

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #980 on: May 05, 2012, 08:47:42 AM »
I can't leave this section without answering the question about "inconsolable carriages".  It seems to have been common at that time for only the very close family to attend a funeral and others just to send their carriages as a gesture.  Dickens is quite funny here, making fun by personifying the carriages--"four-wheeled affliction".  The "three bereaved worms", according to a footnote in my book are footmen posing as mourners, as are "the calves of so many legs steeped in grief".  Footmen still wore knee-breeches and stockings, and were chosen for their good appearance in such clothes, including shapely calves.

And by poking fun at this custom, Dickens underlines the fact that nobody really cares for Tulkinghorn, except Sir L.

Here's a reference--the second quote on the page.  It was written in 1859 by someone tut-tutting about the practice, so it's probably overstated.

http://www.victorianlondon.org/death/characteroffunerals.htm

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #981 on: May 05, 2012, 09:45:37 AM »
 Indeed, yes, PATH.  No matter what comes of the investigation, Lady Dedlock is
in danger and Esther is right to be afraid for her. For her, no good can come of
this turn of events.

 Detective Bucket on the trail;  “He is free with his money, affable in his manners, innocent in his conversation---but, through the  placid stream of his life, there glides an undercurrent of forefinger.”  The pointing finger emerges yet again.  The Roman on the ceiling pointing the
finger at the dead body;  the detective ever pointing his alarming forefinger at some quaking
object of his inquiries.
  “Drawers, desks, pockets, all things belonging to him, Mr. Bucket examines.  A few hours afterwards, he and the Roman will be alone together, comparing forefingers.”   To me,  small ties like this, linking the story together, are a key to Dickens genius in plotting.

 Two small side notes.  ‘cocked hat’ notes???  I can only assume that the notes were folded up in a manner that resembled a cocked hat.
  Also, the Dedlock cousin who slurs his words is confirmed as suffering from ‘a prostration of boredom’.   ‘Vayli’.   [ie., ‘very likely’] ::)

  And finally,   ‘that charmingly horrible person is a perfect Blue Chamber’?  (Ms. Volumnia’s description of Detective Bucket)  So, what does  that mean?  I found another use of “Blue Chamber’  in another Dickens book. “Mrs. Snitchey and Mrs. Craggs maintained a close bond of alliance against 'the office,' which they both considered the Blue chamber, and common enemy, full of dangerous (because unknown) machinations. “So it would appear that a person called a Blue Chamber would be seen as dangerous and full of secret machinations.
Hmm, fits, I think.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #982 on: May 05, 2012, 10:34:38 AM »
My annotated book comes to the rescue, Babi.  You're right about the notes. They are notes folded in the three-cornered shape of a cocked hat.  I'm not sure whay you would want to do that--seems affected.  The note about Blue Chamber says that in one version of the story, Bluebeard's locked room containing the bodies of the wives he has murdered is called the blue Chamber.  So it represents anything hiding horrid secrets.

Did anyone notice that one of Volumnia's cocked-hat notes is to "that redoubtable old General at Bath"--the one with the teeth she was dreaming about in an earlier chapter?  Tulkinghorn wasn't her only interest.

Laura

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #983 on: May 05, 2012, 01:50:42 PM »
I can’t imagine any readers believing that Lady Dedlock committed the murder.  I also can’t believe any readers believe that George committed the murder.  George doesn’t seem to be bothered by what the outcome of the charges against him is, as long as those he cares about believe his innocence.  I am glad that his friends aren’t just standing by. 

This is a good question --- does Mr. Bucket believe George is guilty?  I didn’t question that, but maybe I should have.

As Pat says, nobody really cares for Mr. Tulkinghorn, except for Sir Leicester.  Sir Leicester is willing to pay a large sum of money to cover any expenses of finding the killer.  This seems suspicious to me.  Is it just that Sir Leister wants justice for the murder of his friend, or is he trying to keep covered up whatever secrets Mr. Tulkinghorm knew that Sir Leister fears the murderer may also know?

The anonymous notes with Lady Dedlock written on them are a mystery to me!  Realistically, not that many people at this time could write well, so that could be a clue as to the sender.

There is not much left of the book!  I am anxious to see how all these loose ends are going to come together!

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #984 on: May 05, 2012, 04:11:33 PM »
PatH, I am so glad that you focus our attention on Tulkinghorn's funeral cortege.  Not only Dickens magnificent depiction of the funeral, the personification of the cortege - but also the link you provided.  This from that link -

"Among the aristocracy when a person dies, unless he is some great general or other public character, no one attends the funeral except the immediate family of the deceased. Friends of the family send only their empty carriages. I have frequently seen a magnificent hearse, attended by many hired mourners and one carriage containing the immediate family of the deceased following the hearse, then a long train of empty carriages of all kinds and descriptions"

What struck me - there was no one from Tulkinghorn's immediate family.  Not a single relative!  And his only friend was Sir Leicester.  And he did NOT send an empty carriage.  To me this indicated how close the two men were.  Closer than a lawyer/client relationship.  Do you think we'll learn more about that in the coming chapters?

Laura, if not Mr. George, if not Lady Dedlock, who do you suspect?  In this last section, doesn't Bucket give the impression that he knows who it is?  He says the investigation is going on "beautifully"  - from his point of view. I would be very disappointed  if a new suspect is introduced in the  final three installments of the book, wouldn't you?  I honestly don't think Dickens would do this to us.

There's one character who got my attention in the last chapter of this installment - the one who slurs his words Babi referred to - the cousin described as "debilitated" -over and over, never by name.  Is he new to the story.  He was the one who commented about the importance of settling the case right away - "far better to hang the wrong fler than no fler."  Not sure what a "fler" is - but I really don't like this guy and wonder why Dickens is giving him a speaking part this late in the story.

But this wasn't the big news in this month's  Installment - Bucket's  masterful "interview" with Mercury, after many compliments on his physique seems to cinch the case...Did you think that too?  He is the witness who can attest to the fact that Lady D followed Tulkinghorn out of the house shortly before the murder.

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #985 on: May 06, 2012, 01:54:32 AM »
the one who slurs his words Babi referred to - the cousin described as "debilitated" -over and over, never by name.  Is he new to the story.
He isn't new to the story--we met him in chapter XL, when the Dedlock clan coalesced to help with the election. (I thought he was somewhere else too, but if so I can't find it.)  He was just as hard to understand there.  I think a "fler" must be a fellow (feller).

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #986 on: May 06, 2012, 07:33:53 AM »
Oh, I know what you mean about going back and trying to find the "debilitated" cousin's earlier dialogue, PatH! :D
The word "debilitated" is used freqently in the last chapter to describe this cousin - who wants to see anyone hanged for the murder and be done with it.  Thanks for "fler" - It's obvious now that you tell me!  Don't you find yourself asking after the first few times - how exactly IS his debilitated?  He certainly is not painted in  sympathetic tones - nor is Volumina.  But what do you think of Sir Leicester now?  

Another new character introduced iin this last chapter - Mrs. Bucket- and her new lodger.  I thought this was a new character being introduced at this late date - until reading the new Installment.  

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #987 on: May 06, 2012, 08:18:23 AM »
 Unfortunately, LAURA, other books I have read on this period suggest that the police,
so terribly underpaid, were not very diligent in investigating a death unless someone
offered a reward. Not only underpaid, but shorthanded as well. Sir Leicester knew
what it would take to get some serious attention in Tulkinghorn's death.

 Not that I mean to detract from Detective Bucket in any way, but lawyer Tulkinghorn
was far more likely to get the benefits of his attention than a less important victim.
I love Bucket!  I was so delighted when Detective Bucket managed to squelch Smallweed, at
least for the moment.  Smallweed is the most horrible old man!

 JOAN, my own personal opinon is that the languid 'fler' who couldn't be bothered
to speak distinctly was simply another one of those upper class types that Dickens
loved to mock. I suspect he probably knew just such a person, and gleefully satirized
him here.

   
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Laura

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #988 on: May 06, 2012, 08:19:52 AM »

Laura, if not Mr. George, if not Lady Dedlock, who do you suspect?  In this last section, doesn't Bucket give the impression that he knows who it is?  He says the investigation is going on "beautifully"  - from his point of view. I would be very disappointed  if a new suspect is introduced in the  final three installments of the book, wouldn't you?  I honestly don't think Dickens would do this to us.



Well, having read all of the next installment yesterday, I don't dare say who I think did it!  I will repeat that the way Dickens constructed the story, I don't think he expected his readers to be able to solve the crime.  We could have suspicions, but not much else.

Yes, Bucket seems to have the mystery solved.  I look forward to talking about the next section of reading!

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #989 on: May 06, 2012, 09:04:17 AM »
JOAN, my own personal opinon is that the languid 'fler' who couldn't be bothered
to speak distinctly was simply another one of those upper class types that Dickens
loved to mock. I suspect he probably knew just such a person, and gleefully satirized
him here.
I agree.  And his speech was an affectation, rather than the result of his "debilitation".

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #990 on: May 06, 2012, 11:09:25 AM »
Wow this Dickens guy sure knows how to play chess with his characters - no straight up checkers solving this crime - all the way I thought he was implicating Lady Deadlock and then neat as a pin he turns the tale -
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JudeS

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #991 on: May 06, 2012, 12:33:58 PM »
Pat
I disagree about the "dotty cousin".
I thought  from the first introduction to him Dickens was showing us that strange and weird people are found in families of the Gentry as well as among the poor.
This was  an important point for the time and a good way to show a reality that existed but was not talked about.
To me, this man seemed to have some severe problems with his garbled speech and lack of energy.
If he wasn't supported by Sir Dedlock he would be penniless and wandering the streets or in an
asylum somewhere.
The fact that Sir D. does support him also shows us that Sir D has some compassion in his soul for those who belong to him and depend upon his largesse.

JoanK

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #992 on: May 06, 2012, 01:37:45 PM »
I keep wondering what Bucket's position is. Sometimes, he acts like a private detective, sometimes like a member of the police. In the section we are coming to, he refers to himself as "Bucket of the Detectives". But if he has an official position, would he have been working first for Tulkinghorn, then for Sir L.? Do any notes help with this?

Jonathan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #993 on: May 06, 2012, 02:25:28 PM »
This post may contain spoilers. Just look at that. We're approaching one thousand posts. Hasn't it been fun! And games, when you consider Dickens's clever plotting. And his use of smoke and mirrors, or should I say fog and frescoes?

Who murdered Mr Tulkinghorn? I regret now finishing the book and having the suspense go out of it. I was  not only disappointed but left incredulous. Dickens, I'm sorry to say, needed outside help to arrive at his sorry ending. Not that it lacks logic. With hindsight it seems almost obvious. Who in the tale is temperamently inclined and sorely motivated to commit murder? And who would like to hit two birds with one stone?

'I honestly don't think Dickens would do this to us." Don't count on it, Joan. We won't be the first readers to be disappointed. Readers have wept over the deaths of favorite characters. I weep over Mr Tulkinghorn. He did nothing to deserve his fate. Now, if the High Chancellor had been murdered, that I could understand.

Sure, I'll be there for GREAT EXPECTATIONS. I hope I'm not let down. Not a chance. Always a great read with Dickens.

bookad

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #994 on: May 06, 2012, 03:08:51 PM »
hi there
may I intrude....I have an idea that came to me yesterday as to who the murderer is.....perhaps  Hortenese....wasn't she with T. one time and she seemed angry or upset by what they were talking about, then she seemed to leave the book for awhile....H. was very upset to be dismissed by L. D. and was seething at the bit; I wouldn't put it past her, knowing many of L. D.'s habits from working so closely with her and seeing her trying to get rid of her headaches by walking, she could easily be spying on her and knowing how she impersonated L.D. one time and felt she got away with this, she could easily kill T. one day and the world seeing her silhouette would believe it was L. D.
--this would on one hand get back at L. D. and at the same time get T. off her back (or whatever their argument was about, make her feel better; though what an extreme thing to do to justify feeling better, I must say)

Deb
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And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

JoanK

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #995 on: May 06, 2012, 07:12:59 PM »
Hmmmmm.

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #996 on: May 06, 2012, 07:24:32 PM »
Oh Deb,  an intruder?  Never!  We've been looking for you.  Hortense.   It still  doesn't add up - I don't see her murdering the man just because she wants to get back at Lady D - or because Turkinghorn won't give her more money than he already has.  Is Dickens saying she's ...unbalanced?   There has to have been more of a motive, not yet apparent, don't you think?

I've been wondering how Dickens was planning to tie up all the loose ends.  This Installment reads like the final episode of a long-running soap opera - one last chance to address all of the unanswered questions in the plot.  But Dickens still hasn't done that with Bleak House, has he?

Jonathan is trying to prepare us, I'm afraid.  Must we be brave and face the possibility that Dickens will leave us unsatisfied?

We still know nothing about Sir Leicester and Honoria's marriage - why DID she marry him?
We still don't know the outcome of Jardndyce vs Jarndyce - perhaps we never wlll, but hopefully we will  find out more about John Jarndyce, his past involvement with Honoria and Sir Leicester -  and what he is planning for Esther's future happiness.
And how about Miss Flite?  Are we to hear the outcome of her lawsuit?  Poor Mr. Snagsby?

What else?  What is tops on your curiosity list?  What will disappoint you if left unanswered?

We do begin to learn how some of the pieces fit together in the first chapter of this new Installment - "Springing a Mine" - though I don't understand the meaning of this title, do you?


PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #997 on: May 07, 2012, 01:14:40 AM »
Good for you for guessing, Deb.  Read on and stay tuned to see if you're right or wrong.

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #998 on: May 07, 2012, 09:18:56 AM »
  Now that is something I hadn't considered, JUDE. You could be right. There were so
many diseases and disabilities for which there was no diagnosis, much less a cure.
The mumbling cousin could very well be one of those victims. From the views he
expressed in his mumbling, however, he seemed to be expressing the viewpoint of most
of the gentry of those days. That is what makes me think he is a type that Dickens
wanted to highlight to his public as ridiculous.

JOAN, I found an article that should help explain the relationship between the police
force and people like Tulkinghorn and Sir Leicester. There's a link for those who want to read more.
The modern police force in England was founded between the years 1829 and 1839. This
development was the direct result of the upsurge of a militant working class movement
in the first decades of the 19th century. The old system of corrupt and incapable
parish constables was clearly inadequate to protect the property of rich citizens in the rapidly growing towns against the activities of thieves. The propertied men were
thoroughly alarmed at the growth of an orga­nized working class movement which
engaged in bitter struggles for elementary democratic and trade union rights. The old
police forces were quite inadequate to ensure social order.


http://www.bbmms.org/Eng/2009/10/the-police-force/

 I, too, have finished the book and am being careful not to 'think' ahead. But I
was not disappointed. Dickens left very little unanswered. Possibly to questions he
never thought would arise?  ???  Some endings I may have found a tad to 'sweet', or
unsurprising, but you will want to remember that a murder mystery was a new thing
in Dickens' day. He and his readers weren't as 'sophisticated' as we are now in
these matters.


"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #999 on: May 07, 2012, 09:54:13 AM »
Good morning, Babi!
Your post is reassuring - I guess we need to be fair to the author - if he doesn't answer our questions that occur as we are reading.  After all, this is HIS story.  I'm hoping that he will address the questions HE himself has brought up though.

Your research on the Police Force at the time was informative.  Bucket seems to be one in a million - he knows just how to get along with everyone, from Mercury - just one of the guys - to the old aristocracy , careful to address, flatter and impress them with the courtesy he shows to them.  This seems to explain the repeated address of "Sir Leicester Dedlock, Baronet,"

I really worry about Sir Leicester - can he survive the information Bucket has given him?  A stroke?  Should Bucket have put him at his ease sooner?  I worry that it is too late.  Why doesn't he tell him everything?  Is there a reason tht we don't know about yet?  Or have I missed something...again? :D