Author Topic: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online  (Read 203462 times)

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1000 on: May 07, 2012, 09:54:43 AM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in
 
Bleak House                            
by Charles Dickens
                   

  

Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.

The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.

The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name.  Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
 
  
 
Mrs. Bagnet Returns from her Expedition
 (click to enlarge)

 

INSTALMENT

XVII
XVIII
 


 DATE of PUBLICATION
 
 July 1853
Aug. 1853


 
 CHAPTERS

54-56
 57-59  
   
 

 DISCUSSION DATES

May 6-May 10

 May 11- May 15
 
 The Lonely Figure
(click to enlarge)
               Some Topics to Consider


Chapter LIV  Springing a Mine

1.  What was you reaction to Detective Bucket's confrontation with Smallweed?

2.  Bucket confronts Mademoiselle Hortense. What new view of the French do you  find here?  How does that fit with other comments we've read re. the French?

3.  Detective Bucket is always very formal in addressing Lord Dedlock. How does Dickens explain that?


Chapter LV  Flight

1.  What do you think of Mrs. Bagnet's decision to override George's wishes?  Do you agree with her assessment of his situation?

2. Did you feel Dickens handled the reunion of mother and son well? Are you  satisfied with George's explanation?

3.  How do you see Mr. Guppy's last interview with Lady Dedlock? Does it alter  your view of him?

  Chapter LVI  Pursuit

1.  All is revealed. What is the immediate result with Sir Dedlock? With Lady Dedlock?

2.  What new role does George Rouncewell assume at this time?

3.  How does Detective Bucket impress you as a detective?  How does he compare with your favorite fictional detectives of later days?
        
 

                                                  

 Bleak House
 "A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge.


DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi,   JoanK  




JoanK

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1001 on: May 07, 2012, 02:55:00 PM »
Are we on Ch 54-56 where all is revealed yet? If some aren't caught up yet, we could refer to the solution obliquely: for example, were you surprised?

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1002 on: May 07, 2012, 03:12:19 PM »
JoanK, check the heading for the schedule.  It's the same as it's been.  Not sure where everyone is although it seems that we are all up to speed now.

Bucket seems to have all the facts, doesn't he?  He says at one point that Mr. Tulkinghorn told him everything.  Really was surprised when the noisy trio entered the house - all wanting to profit from sharing what they know of Tulkinghorn's manuevering.  Except Mrs. Snagsby, who thinks her husband fathered Jo.  Not sure what she's doing here.  What can she add to the investigation?

  Maybe someone can explain why Grandpa Smallweed wants to buy back the letters that he found at Krook's place - letters he sold to Tulkinghorn and now seems to want them back.  Or does he want to sell them again, now that Tulkinghorn is dead?    

JoanK

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1003 on: May 07, 2012, 03:30:44 PM »
So we have read the solution. but some may be trying to catch up, and not want to see it discussed yet.

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1004 on: May 07, 2012, 03:39:42 PM »
Is there anyone here who has not read Chapter 54 yet?  "Springing a Mine?"  Can you explain what this title means?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1005 on: May 07, 2012, 03:50:52 PM »
I messed up and read to chapter 59 - I am also feeling the pace in that most of the nuances of the story have been discussed and it appears now to be plot and character driven and so the story has become a page turner for me.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1006 on: May 07, 2012, 04:47:59 PM »
Yes, these last sections seem to be increasing the action.

JoanP, I accidentally found that Dickens first used the expression "springing a mine" in Chapter XVI.

"Twice lately there has been a crash and a cloud of dust, like the springing of a mine, in Tom-all-Alone's; and each time a house has fallen. These accidents have made a paragraph in the newspapers and have filled a bed or two in the nearest hospital. The gaps remain, and there are not unpopular lodgings among the rubbish. As several more houses are nearly ready to go, the next crash in Tom- all-Alone's may be expected to be a good one."

I think that likely confirms that Dickens is using the expression in the military sense of "an anti-personnel mine, which is designed to jump into the air in order to cause injury to a person’s upper body."  http://military-dictionary.feeds-4business.com/words/247725-springing-mine.html

Or maybe just the act of setting off a land mine? That seems to be what Buckett is doing in this chapter. He's figured out who killed Tulkinghorn and is revealing the information about that and about Lady D in a way that I felt was a "bombshell."

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1007 on: May 07, 2012, 07:06:56 PM »
Thanks, Marcie - I completely missed that but can see it now..  Mr. Bucket sure is "springing a mine" on poor Sir Leceister, who  can't bear to hear the information the Inspector is giving him. 
I'm not sure that learning the identity of the real murderer means anything to this old man.  He just knows that his beloved wife has been dishonored, "yet he accepts this in a tone of mourning and compassion rather than reproach."

In rereading this chapter, I see another mention of a "spring" -

Says Hortense to Sir Leicester -
Quote
"Adieu, you old man grey, I pity you and despise you.  With these words, she snapped her teeth together, as if her mouth closed with a spring..."
And she's led away - in handcuffs!

But wait, there's more.  The first sentence of the next chapter, "Flight"

"Inspector Bucket of the Detective has not yet struck his great blow."  What can this be?  What more does he know?  Who wil be the recipient of this "great blow?"

Laura

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1008 on: May 07, 2012, 08:01:10 PM »
I guess I wasn’t the only one wondering when I should “spill the beans.” 

I thought “Springing a Mine” meant revealing explosive information that would have the potential to cause damage.

I thought the character of Mdm. Hortense was made to seem like a caricature of a conniving French woman.  Some descriptions of her include “tigerish expansion of the mouth,” “black eyes darting,” “intemperate foreigner,” and “tigress-like.”  I thought the way her dialogue was written was poor, actually.  It did try to convey that she was French, but I didn’t find it convincing at all.

Detective Bucket calling Sir Leicester by his full name and title drove me nuts as I was reading it!  I assumed that Bucket did it to show extreme respect for Sir Leicester since he was about to reveal private and embarrassing news to him.

bookad

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1009 on: May 07, 2012, 08:49:09 PM »
I too thought Bucket was ruthless in his delight in pointing out his deductions while poor Sir D. looked like he was about to have a major collapse, his world falling apart.  

Love the paragraph from ch LV

Quote
Railroads shall soon traverse all this country, and with a rattle and a glare the engine and train shall shoot like a meteor over the wide night-landscape, turning the moon paler; but as yet, such things are non-existent in these parts, though not wholly unexpected. Preparations are afoot, measurements are made, ground is staked out. Bridges are begun, and their not yet united piers desolately look at one another over roads and streams, like brick and mortar couples with an obstacle to their union; fragments of embankments are thrown up, and left as precipices with torrents of rusty carts and barrows tumbling over them; tripods of tall poles appear on hill-tops, where there are rumours of tunnels; everything looks chaotic, and abandoned in full hopelessness. Along the freezing roads, and through the night, the post-chaise makes its way without a railroad on its mind.

Was at the library today and found a book by author Stephen Leacock titled Charles Dicken's His Life and Work'--the author was from the town 5 minutes from me Orillia, Ontario and is well known for his humourous writing around here.
and
Dickens Public Life and Private Passion by Peter Ackroyd &
The Friendly Dickens, being a good natured guide to the art and adventures of the man who invented Scrooge by Norrie Epstein

good to know that it looks like the group will carry on with 'Great Expectations' --as the books I have look so interesting

one thing I did read in one of them was it appears many students are introduced to Dickens by the book 'A Tale of Two Cities' and it turns off many to reading any of his other works and the commentator felt if Dickens realized this he would be very upset that this was the book picked---I must say I found that book to be very hard to read when I took it in grade 10 or so

someone mentioned that mystery novels were a new type of writing at the time of Dickens writing 'Bleak House' and I guess that is why I feel let down with with reasoning and bringing the antagonist into the picture perhaps. It felt very superficial and I would have enjoyed more involved conniving etc.

Deb

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PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1010 on: May 08, 2012, 12:11:30 AM »
Deb, I'm glad to hear Leacock is still available.  I loved his stuff when I was growing up--never came across the Dickens book, though.

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1011 on: May 08, 2012, 12:19:04 AM »
I thought the character of Mdm. Hortense was made to seem like a caricature of a conniving French woman.  Some descriptions of her include “tigerish expansion of the mouth,” “black eyes darting,” “intemperate foreigner,” and “tigress-like.”  I thought the way her dialogue was written was poor, actually.  It did try to convey that she was French, but I didn’t find it convincing at all.
I agree.  Dickens is playing to the stereotyped notions of the time, maybe shares them.  It's certainly playing to them to have the murderess be a volatile foreigner.

JudeS

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1012 on: May 08, 2012, 12:30:22 AM »
I will be leaving on a trip to the Shakespear Festival in Ashland Oregon so I will not complete the discussion with you.

I finished the book but will not reveal even a hint to you all.
The Detective, Bucket, was an original and as such, the first of so many that would follow, he was an interesting start of this popular genre.

I enjoyed the book and the discussion so much!

Thank you to the designers of the questions (which I didn't answer) that made me think about all the important issues.
I have learned  a lot in these past four months and wish I could finish this trip that we started together.

I hope to meet you all again in another discussion.


Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1013 on: May 08, 2012, 08:57:03 AM »
 Bucket does have a remarkable talent for adapting himself to the type of person he
is dealing with.  Very useful talent, indeed. I did get tired of Bucket constantly
addressing Dedlock by his full title, but Dickens does explain it. “...Mr. Bucket,
who delights in a full title, and does violence to himself when he dispenses with
any fragment of it...”

  I assumed Bucket did not attempt to 'put him at his ease' sooner, because he could
not be sure at that point whether all his deductions were correct. He didn't want to
give false hopes.

 The descriptions of the cornered Hortense were a bit florid, but when you conjure
up a picture from that description, it seems apt enough. A violent-tempered woman
could well react like a tigress at bay. At the same time, Detective Bucket also
says, “Upon my soul, I wonder at you. I thought the French were a polite nation, I
did, really.” 
Bucket’s reaction is possibly typical of the English re. the French,
and surely must reflect something of Dickens’.

Moving on to Ch.55,  Mrs. Bagnet, bless her heart, has gone to fetch Mrs. Rouncewell to her long-lost George.  George, imprisoned on a suspicion of murder, is being  noble and pigheaded, and refusing to have anything to do with a lawyer.  (I can understand his reluctance, but really!)
As Mrs. Bagnet puts it,  “It won’t do to have truth and justice on his side; he must have law and lawyers.”  Very true.  Innocence can be doubted; it is proof that is needed.

 We'll miss you, JUDE. I've enjoyed your contributions so much. Have a great time
at the Shakespeare Festival!
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1014 on: May 08, 2012, 10:10:59 AM »
Hey Jude , you will be missed at the grande finale, the big reveal.  Your input throughout was much appreciated - consistanly bringing insights into the characters' motivations that we hadn't considered. Thank you!  Hope you are planning to join us in  the discussion of Great Expectaions in mid-July, after a bit of a break from Dickens.  Do you have tickets yet for the Shakespeare Festival?  I read somewhere that they were doing "Troilus and Cressida..."  Whoa!

Deb, will look for you in the Great Expectations discussion too. You have an eye for drawing us to the big picture in England at the time the story is set - I've a footnote regarding the passage you quoted on the railroads, which were non-existent in these parts at the time -

Quote
"According to T.W.Hill, these details suggest that the story is set in the late 1830's just before the development of railways in Lincolnshire in the 1840's."
This might change our views on the timing of the court system, reforms, the elections - the story not set in the 1850's at all - but some years earlier.

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1015 on: May 08, 2012, 10:29:59 AM »
Quote
"The descriptions of the cornered Hortense were a bit florid,"
 Babi, loved that description.  I think we were all a bit disappointed in the revelation that Hortense was the murderer, Deb.  Do you think that Dickens' readers felt the same way?  Or were they so unaccustomed to murder mysteries that they just accepted it as  part of the story.  I confess, I'm still hoping for more of a motive, but can see where Dickens readers might have not expected more.

Laura refers to those terms  describing Hortense - all animals, weren't they?  Less than human, passionate, ruthless, unrefined those French. I agree, he overdid it - do you think his compatriots agreed with him, regarded the French in the same way at this time as PatH suggests - a volatile people?

Dickens seems to expend much of his creative energy on his Inspector Bucket, doesn't he? Has anyone seen the film adaptation of Bleak House yet?  Does Bucket have the lead male role?  If I were a male actor reading the script, I'd jump at that part.

Yes, Mrs. Bagnet was instrumental in getting Mrs. Rouncewell to come to London to convince George to defend himself, Babi, but was the trip really necessary - if you consider that Mr. Bucket is already clearing him in apprehending the real suspect. Did you notice that she walked to Lincolnshire to get Mrs. Rouncewell?  Another Miss Flite!  Where is Miss Flite, by the way?  Do you think her case will be resolved in the few chapters we have left?

bookad

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1016 on: May 08, 2012, 12:39:04 PM »
about the time line in the book

from a series of books under 'Landmarks of World Literature' heading
Dickens Bleak House  by Graham Storey
pg 5 chapter entitled Historical context

'In February 1851, after Lord John Russell's administration was defeated, there was literally a two weeks' hiatus in government; and one reason was the Party leaders; belief that no one else could be brought in for the task. Dicken's sarcasm echoes similar attacks in The Times;....

then the book quotes -from Bleak Street

Quote
England has been in a dreadful state for some weeks.  Lord Coodle would go out, Sir Thomas Doodle wouldn't come in, and there being nobody in great Britain (to speak of) except Coodle and Doodle, there has been no government.
--from beg. ch 40

the above one about one of Dicken's 5 pet peeves that he used this book to portray--it will be interesting to look at how or what or even if he did use 'Great Expectations' to allow his pet annoyances to show

Deb
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Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
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Jonathan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1017 on: May 08, 2012, 03:59:34 PM »
Wow! From Dickens to Shakespeare. We all wish you a smooth transition, Jude. You must tell us when you get back which of the two has more 'original' characters in his dramas. Which of the two would you invite to dinner? Both? Would they talk shop?

Charles, I like your line: it's not enough to have truth on your side, you need a lawyer as well.

I can't make up my mind, if Bucket is being respectful or sarcastic with his deferential manner with Sir Leicester Dedlock, Baronet. In the movie version Sir Leicester seems annoyed by it.

I can't see a lead male role in the movie. They all play their parts so well.

Neither can I make up my mind about Dickens's social criticism. Is it 'pet peeves', as Deb suggests, or as others have called it: 'muck', and 'muckraking'? Reform was in the air, including reform of Chancery proceedings. Education, health, marital, slum issues, and justice, which five did you have in mind? Class?

Hortense has a special place in the plot. The readers would have thought revolution as it was practised in France, just a few years earlier. I could swear it's a hint of A Tale of Two Cities in the works. Dickens couldn't find a murderer among his compatriots, so he imported one. He was reading Carlyle's French Revolution at the time. Perhaps he was pointing out the possibility of revolutin if reform could not be had.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1018 on: May 08, 2012, 06:03:44 PM »
Jude we will miss you but Shakespeare - Wow - I loved the explanation of Springing the Mine - what a wonderful explanation to understand what that lead-up was all about - and then all that leading to a bit part actress in the story - isn't there something about the pebble in your shoe is worse than the boulder in your path - or something like that. George the good will be reunited as the prodigal son - how comforting.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Laura

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1019 on: May 08, 2012, 08:02:31 PM »

Yes, Mrs. Bagnet was instrumental in getting Mrs. Rouncewell to come to London to convince George to defend himself, Babi, but was the trip really necessary - if you consider that Mr. Bucket is already clearing him in apprehending the real suspect.

I'm not Babi, but I'll chime in on this one anyway.   :)
While it might not have been necessary for Mrs. Rouncewell to make the trip to clear George, it was necessary for the overall story in that it enabled she and her son to reconcile after not seeing each other for so many years.

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1020 on: May 09, 2012, 09:07:59 AM »
 Compared to the phlegmatic English, I'm sure the French did seem a very volatile
people. Come to think of it, the 'phlegmatic' Englishman is a stereotype, too, isn't
it?   :-X
 I couldn't agree more about Detective Bucket as a film role, JOANP.  Bucket is a
marvelous detective. “The velocity and certainty of Mr. Bucket’s interpretation on
all these heads is a little short of miraculous.”
   I do wonder that  none of
our mystery writers have used Detective Bucket as the hero of a mystery series.
I would love to read them, if properly done.  (‘do wonder’,  ‘properly done’.  I am
getting thoroughly immersed in the language of the day.)
  Really, tho', how was Mrs. Bagnet to know Detective Bucket would save the day? And
it offered the perfect opportunity for Dickens to re-unite mother and son, as LAURA
points out.

 Thats for that background, BOOKAD. Sharp eye, there. I also note another reference
in 'Bleak House' that fits beautifully. “England has been some weeks in the dismal
strait of having no pilot.......to weather the storm; and the marvelous part of the
matter is, that England has not appeared to care very much about it.”


 JONATHAN, I don't think Bucket is being sarcastic, but that is a possibility. Doesn't
really seem his style, though. He would really have to be highly contemptuous of
Sir Leicester as an individual, to keep the sarcasm going in the face of his illness.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1021 on: May 09, 2012, 01:05:41 PM »
Quote
"While it might not have been necessary for Mrs. Rouncewell to make the trip to clear George, it was necessary for the overall story in that it enabled she and her son to reconcile after not seeing each other for so many years. "


Laura, I agree - it was heartwarming that mother and son were united, as Barb points out -  but also necessary to involve her in advancing the plot.  Even the perceptive detective could not have  known that Mrs. Rouncewell also received one of Hortense's  letters, naming Lady Dedlock as the murderess.  He also missed the part Mr. Guppy would play after seeing Mr. Smallweed at the Dedlocks - Guppy went right to Lady Dedlock and told her that her old letters  had not been destroyed, but were now in her husband's hands.  

What do we think of Mr. Bucket as a detective?  He seems a bit impulsive, doesn't he?  So convinced that he is right in his assumptions.  I will say that when he makes an error, he follows up on it - to right the wrong he may have done.  I think he needs a partner who will balance the act.  A partner besides Mrs. Bucket.  He seems to tell her what to do, but not confer with her on their course of action...

Surely Mr. Bucket would did not want word to get to Lady Dedlock before he exposed Hortense as the murderer.  He must have felt directly responsible for her flight.  If the lady had not learned of the letters now in her husband's hands, she might have stayed behind to defend herself.  But she knows she had no home left now that her husband has those letters.  

I'm wondering if that would have happened anyway...had there been no murder, would Sir Leicester have received those letters and learned of her past liaison.  Would she have fled anyway?

It's pointless to wonder about that though - Dickens has conceived of this situation - a double whammy, leaving Lady D no choice but to flee.  Surely Mr. Bucket, who knows so many people all over London will be able to find her.  Judging from Sir Leicester's reaction, he'll take her back - if he survives.  It seems that Mr. Bucket also did not anticipate his extreme reaction.  Surely he didn't mean to kill Sir Leicester, while apprehending Tulkinghorn's murderer?

It's really fascinating watching the story unravel - in ways we never could have anticipated, and yet sensed coming all along, isn't it?

JoanK

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1022 on: May 09, 2012, 03:02:10 PM »
"Compared to the phlegmatic English, I'm sure the French did seem a very volatile people."

I remember a discussion of "social distance". Everybody has a distance at which they feel comfortable standing from other people. But it's different in each culture. The French stand closer to each other while talking than the English. If a Frenchman and an Englishman are talking, the Frenchman will go closer, the Englishman will back up: maybe they will go all across the room like that. the English will feel that the french are "pushy"; the french that the English are "distant".

Funny how something we're not even aware of can influence us. I have personal space issues, too. Since I'm in a wheelchair, and lower, if I'm standing in line behind someone, they often don't sense that I'm there and back up into my personal space. This can feel very threatening, especially since I'm usually staring right at their rear end. 

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1023 on: May 10, 2012, 08:30:48 AM »
On Mr. Guppy’s last interview with Lady Dedlock, I am pleased to say that it does him
credit, and suggests a new maturity and firmness that was, imo, much needed.  (He still
talks like a lawyer, of course, having to hedge himself about carefully with words.)

  I was surprised, touched and pleased at Sir Leicester's quick forgiveness of Lady Dedlock.
I knew he loved her, but with his enormous sense of pride and responsibility to the family
name, I didn't expect this very human, loving response.
  Sir Leicester has suffered a stroke.  Lady Dedlock is sought but only a letter to her husband is found.  “---but it is doubtful yet whether he has not received another missive from another world, requiring to be personally answered; and all the living languages, and all the dead, are as one to him.”   sigh   Pure, lovely Dickens.
 
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1024 on: May 10, 2012, 09:52:41 AM »
Babi, everything about this chapter suggests his death, doesn't it?   Though Mrs. Rouncewell tries to be reassuring, telling Sir Dedlock that his illness is not of serious consequence, there are tears running down her face.  And then Bucket tells John Jarndyce that his mission is to bring Lady Dedlock back to the house - but that he fears suicide after reading her letter.  

 Do you sense that Mr. Bucket feels in some way responsible for the way he's handled the investigation into the murder?
I'm finding this episode so much more riveting than Tulkinghorn's murder, aren't you? I'm hoping for a happy resolution, but not sure at this point.  Pure Dickens, yes!  He is certainly holding on to his readers with this installment -


marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1025 on: May 10, 2012, 10:57:14 AM »
Joan, you say "I'm finding this episode so much more riveting than Tulkinghorn's murder,"

Oh, yes! And I think that Bucket may feel responsible for not keeping watch on Lady D. Babi, I too was glad to see the depths of Sir L's love for Lady D. I think she has lived in her "own world" of secrecy and shame for so long that she has no idea that he would forgive her.

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1026 on: May 10, 2012, 11:12:22 AM »
Marcie, we still don't know what Sir Leicester knew of his wife's past when he married her, do we?  Do you suppose he did know, but married her anyway?  Wouldn't that be something?

bookad

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1027 on: May 10, 2012, 11:26:41 AM »
I too am surprised and pleased that Sir D. would be forgiving of
his wife; the whole household seemed rather stuffy in their ways
and his being forgiving did not seem to mesh with their behaviour

I was wondering if Bucket might have some worries about his way of
presenting Sir D. with all his information regarding the murder....he got
so carried away with his discoveries and forgot he didn't need to enlighten Sir D. with every morbid detail...it felt like all this info played havoc with
poor Sir D. and his health

very gripping chapter though; I agree

Deb
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BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1028 on: May 10, 2012, 11:58:24 AM »
Being clinical about this if Bucket was 'springing the mine' when the explosion came someone had to be injured from all that flying debris - probably a stroke but how close does Sir Leicester's symptoms match shock. The trauma of shock can take away the use of all kinds of bodily functions, even speech. 

That could be Sir Leicester's heartache if he did know of Lady Deadlock's past and thought he was elevating her to the dignity he saw in her and now is realizing she never fully owned the place he made for her in his world and in his heart. To her it was all conditional on looking and acting the part.
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PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1029 on: May 10, 2012, 12:03:47 PM »
I think she has lived in her "own world" of secrecy and shame for so long that she has no idea that he would forgive her.
Not only that, but I don't think she can forgive herself--she's just as hard on herself as others would be.  She's also so proud that I don't think she could stand to face the world if her past were known.

What's really frustrating, though, is the timing of her flight.  When she leaves, Sir L. is alone in his library.  He has already learned everything, and might or might not have suffered the further stroke that leaves him lying speechless.  If she had come into the library, she might have been able to talk to him, learn of his forgiveness, or at least get him help sooner.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1030 on: May 10, 2012, 12:46:39 PM »
ah but shame brings with it isolation and I sense her fear of being outed was as they say when you are too fearful to cry. Yes, Pat it does sound like, doesn't it, of all the ifs and if onlys we hold onto in our minds when in our life unthinkable things happen.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Laura

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1031 on: May 10, 2012, 01:17:22 PM »
Like others, I was pleasantly surprised to see how quickly Sir Dedlock forgave his wife and how deeply he felt for her.  The book does indicate through words that he had a stroke, but, based on what happened, I am not entirely sure.  I was also thinking his illness could be the result of a temporary shock.

I can’t really compare Detective Bucket to modern detectives because I don’t read mysteries.  I do find him mysterious.  He pops into the story at unexpected times and has information that the reader could in no way have.

I am hoping that Lady Dedlock is found before it is too late!

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1032 on: May 10, 2012, 04:39:21 PM »
It seems to me, from the shock that he experienced, that Sir L did not know of Lady D's affair and child, before. I don't think that Dickens would portray the irony of Lady D's suffering (and her causing Esther to suffer never acknowledging her in public) while Sir L knows about her affair all along. I think that Dickens is telling us that Buckett has given Sir D a great shock but that Sir D immediately has compassion for his wife.

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1033 on: May 10, 2012, 04:52:01 PM »
Mercie that was my take as well however, as you read there isn't enough definite so I can see how another view point is possible. Regardless he is in a whole lot of heartache.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1034 on: May 10, 2012, 07:18:25 PM »
As I drove around today on my errands, I found myself thinking of the irony - and also the tragedy of the Dedlocks' marriage. Did you sense tragedy?

 From the number of references and footnotes in Bleak House, you can see that Dickens was well acquainted with  and influenced by Shakespeare.  This afternoon, Romeo and Juliet came to mind.  There's the class difference.  There are family members who would like to see the couple break up.  There is the misunderstanding that seems to be leading to tragedy.  I know the comparison only goes so far - but there's enough there to make me fear that death is in the picture unless someone intervenes in time...maybe that "somebody" will be Mr. Bucket...

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1035 on: May 11, 2012, 02:54:39 AM »
Joan, I agree with you. I think we've been given some clues and foreshadowing of dark events. This next installment provides a long search and resolution. I think these next chapters contain the most dramatic/emotional passages so far.

Let's move on to chapters 57-59 now. Of course, if anyone has comments about past chapters, feel free to post them.

I'll provide some topics to consider in the next post.

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1036 on: May 11, 2012, 02:55:03 AM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in
 
Bleak House                           
by Charles Dickens
                     

 

Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.

The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.

The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name.  Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
 
 
 
The Night
 (click to enlarge)

 

INSTALMENT

XVIII
XVIX
 


 DATE of PUBLICATION
 
 Aug. 1853
Sept. 1853


 
 CHAPTERS

57-59
 60-67 
   
 

 DISCUSSION DATES

May 11- May 15

 May 16- May 20
 
 The Morning
(click to enlarge)
                Some Topics to Consider


Chapter LVII  Esther's Narrative

1. What descriptions that foreshadow something dire did you notice in this chapter?
2. What are some of the things going on when Buckett and Esther stop at the house where Jenny and Liz and their husbands live?
3. After Bucket and Esther leave the house and travel for many miles, Buckett gets an epiphany and heads back in the direction from which they came. Do we have any clues about what he is doing?
4. What do you think of Buckett's sleuthing powers and how he is reacting to this "case"?


 Chapter LVIII  A Wintry Day and Night

1. What is happening in the society outside the Dedlock townhouse?
2. Who is in the house? How does Sir L behave toward them and how do they respond to Sir L?
3. What do you think of Sir L's declaration to his "witnesses"?
4. Has your opinion of Sir L changed from the early chapters?
5. What metaphors/clues that foreshadow something dire did you notice in this chapter?

Chapter LIX  Esther's Narrative

1. What is Buckett's opinion of Esther?
2. Esther and Buckett run into Woodcourt. Where has he been? What do you think of his actions in this chapter?
3. Did you find some of the dialog humorous in the meeting with Snagsby, Mrs. Snagsby and Guster?
4. What does Buckett reveal to Mrs. Snagsby?
5. How were you affected by the letter that Lady D wrote?
6. What do you think of the way that Dickens built up to the ending of this chapter (from the beginning of the installment to the ending sentence)?


   

                                                 

 Bleak House
 "A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge.


DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi JoanK  


Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1037 on: May 11, 2012, 07:55:33 AM »
Quote
I'm finding this episode so much more riveting than Tulkinghorn's murder, aren't you?
Oh, definitely, JOANP. Everything about Tulkinghorn's murder was sort of 'second hand'.
It seemed as though Dickens may have been sparing the tender sensibilities of his female
readers.
  Bucket does seem upset by the turn of events. He had no way of knowing that Lady Dedlock
would learn of her danger before he could make his arrest and assure her she was safe. I
wouldn't be surprised if he did feel he could have handled things better.
   Did you notice what Esther had to say about Detective Bucket?  “He was really very kind and gentle;.....and...I felt a confidence in his sagacity which reassured me.”  I feel the same
way about this surprising man.  His gentleness shows in his contacts with Dedlock, as well as
his reassurances and encouragement to others, and makes an interesting contrast to the
quick thinking, determined policeman.
 
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1038 on: May 11, 2012, 07:59:09 AM »
 PS.   A bit of serendipity.  Val and I have been clearing out some bookshelves, and I came
across an old book of short stories on fantasy and sci/fi.  Included in them was a Dickens
short story entitled "The Magic Fishbone".  He wrote it as a 'fairy tale' under the pseudonym of a 7-year old girl.  Bless the man, he managed to actually sound like a 7-year old, and still get it in
his sly bits of humor and social commentary.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #1039 on: May 11, 2012, 10:50:17 AM »
Babi, I agree that Buckett is very determined to make sure his clients are psychologically and physically okay. He takes time to prepare them to "soften the blow" when they are to be confronted with bad news.

Thanks for mentioning THE MAGIC FISHBONE. There is an online version at http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/23344