Author Topic: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online  (Read 203457 times)

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #920 on: April 30, 2012, 09:22:40 AM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in
 
Bleak House                            
by Charles Dickens
                   

  

Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.

The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.

The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name.  Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
 
  
 
Light
 (click to enlarge)

 

INSTALMENT

XVI
XVII
 


 DATE of PUBLICATION
 
 June. 1853
July 1853


 
 CHAPTERS

50-53
 54-56  
   
 

 DISCUSSION DATES

May 1-May 5

 May 6- May 10
 
 Shadow
(click to enlarge)
               Some Topics to Consider


Chapter L  Esther's Narrative

1. How does Dickens use Caddy's illness as a device to advance the plot?

2. How do the reactions of the characters around Caddy show their character: Prince, Mr. Turveydrop, Mrs. Jellyby, Mr. Jellyby, Mr. Woodcourt, Mr. Jarndice?

3. What is the misunderstanding between Ada and Esther? What clues does Dickens leave us? Did you guess what it was before you read on?

4. What is your reaction to Mr. J. saying he wants to make Woodcourt "as rich as a Jew"? What does this tell us about Dickens and his times?

 Chapter LI  Enlightened
  
1. Why does Richard emphasize that he is pursuing J. and J. for Ada's sake? How is the timing of this conversation significant?

2. Is it realistic that Richard should go from having no aims to being so absorbed in one aim? Do you know anyone like this? If so, how did it end for them?

3. What was your reaction when Ada tells her secret? What do you think her future will be?

4. After talking with her guardian, Esther says "I feared I might not quite have been all that I meant to be since the letter and the answer." What does she mean?

Chapter LII  Obstinacy

1. Why is George so happy to see Esther?

2. Do you understand George's position that he would "rather be hanged in his own way"? Or do you agree with Mrs. Bagnet that it's "stuff and nonsense"?

3. Why is Esther afraid?

  Chapter LIII  The Track

1. "...when Mr. Bucket and that finger are in much conference, a terrible avenger will be heard of before long." Do you see Bucket as a terrible avenger? If so, why did he arrest George in that amiable way?

2. "Like man in the abstract, he is here today and gone tomorrow-- but very like man indeed, he is here again the next day." Is Dickens using Bucket as a symbol of something more abstract?  

3. What are the "inconsolable carriages" at Tulkinghorn's funeral?

4. What are the half-dozen letters with "Lady Dedlock" written on them? Who do you think sent them? Why does Bucket check Sir L's mail?

5. Why are all the footmen called "Mercury"? Is Bucket clever at getting information out of one? How does he know about the black cloak with the fringe?
 

                                                  

 Bleak House
 "A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge.


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PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #921 on: April 30, 2012, 09:22:55 AM »
Babi, your cast of characters saved us all.  Considering how much work it must have been, I'm surprised there weren't more errors.

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #922 on: April 30, 2012, 12:48:19 PM »

I agree, PatH - I can't count the number of times I've had to check with Babi's cast list.  Having them grouped as she did, was a godsend.

Deb, delighted to hear you've been able to keep up while away.  Recently I read that Dickens lived very near the very workhouse he described in Oliver Twist.
Quote
"please sir, I want some more."  
What he saw at the workhouse made quite an impression on Dickens - a place to be avoided at all costs.  Yet this was the only solution to the poor, the infirmed, and the  homeless situation at the time.

Do you have any suspects in mind?  Guppy, Laura?  Hortense?   Judith Smallweed?  I think  these minor characters are so intimidated by by Mr. Tulkinghorn, they wouldn't conceive of doing the act on their own.  The stakes aren't high enough for the risk.  Now, if they are carrying out the instructions of someone else - someone who has more to risk with Tulkinghorn alive...

Dickens sure does know how to sell those Installments, doesn't he?  I'll bet he keeps us guessing right to the very last one.  Can he do it?  Or will we have discerned the killer before then - with Bucket's help?


JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #923 on: April 30, 2012, 01:23:05 PM »
I've just a few more questions from this installment, before we move on tomorrow.

- The first is another one of those tiny details that may/may not prove to be important - remember when Tulkinghorn checked his watch as the Dedlock's splendid clock struck 7:45? -
 "Two minutes wrong"  At this rate, you won't last my time," he muttered.  Was his watch wrong - or the Dedlocks?  Does it matter at all?
I've tucked this little fact away - curious to see whether Dickens has included it here for a reason...

- Next - possibly another insignificant detail -   Tulkinghorn had been sitting in his chair, had just taken a sip or two of his wine.  He's found lying face down, in front of his chair - shot through the heart.  He must have been facing his assailant then?  Probably someone he recognized?  I guess I'm wondering who blew out the two candles on the table beside him.  I mean, why would the murderer bother to blow out the candles after the murder - after Tulkinghorn had already seen him/her approach?  

- The final one - the question of Jo's will.  Laura sees two reasons for the title of that chapter - "it could mean his last will and testament, what he leaves behind to those left on earth. or  Will could also mean Jo’s desire, or what he wanted."

I think both of those explanations fit here.  He asks 'Sangsby'  to write in very large letters -
Quote
"uncommon precious large"
  letters -  that he was very sorry he did it, never meant to do it, and asked forgiveness. - for Esther's smallpox?  Mr. Snagsby promises Jo that he'll do this.  I'm looking  forward to see whether he does this.  Jo wills to be laid out next to Nemo/Captain Hawdon in the berryin ground.  This is Esther's father.  I don't think we've heard the whole story of Jo's relationship with Hawdon -   Of course we haven't heard much about Hawdon at all, have we?  

JoanK

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #924 on: April 30, 2012, 01:55:15 PM »
"My friend...saws away at Mo-zart and Handel, and the rest of the big-wigs...."

Slow as I am, I never thought of the origin of the word "bigwigs" until now-- the mentasl picture of Mozart and Handel in their wigs.

I loved what Dickens did with the clocks that didn't tell Tulkinghorn not to go home.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #925 on: April 30, 2012, 02:14:47 PM »
Yes, let me echo the wonders of Babi's list - it is Badger and Snagsby that mixed up for me and I have to check on who is who all the time.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #926 on: April 30, 2012, 02:32:18 PM »
Thought on clocks and time pieces - Clocks are about time, schedules, business and modern man. We are SO dependent on clocks and Tulkinghorn carried one in his pocket.  Every second is precious and we all know that "time is money."

Backwards clocks are a symbol for being in the realm of the subconscious - and so, where the beautiful clock in hall at Lincolnshire was presumably slow by two minutes it was not exactly backwards - could indicate that the house was still running with all the magnificence of the past and not keeping up with Tulkinghorn, the modern man who functions within time and therefore, he believes he is better equipped to outlast the Deadlocks magnificence that bolsters their ability, their 'right' to control and keep secrets.

The noting of the time difference was immediately after the war of wills between Lady Deadlock and himself letting us see his battle plan in action as he, Tulkinghorn wants to be the one who controls and be the keeper of all secrets. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #927 on: April 30, 2012, 05:53:15 PM »
I loved what Dickens did with the clocks that didn't tell Tulkinghorn not to go home.
Yes, that's really good.  And the irony of Tulkinghorn telling his slow watch "At this rate you won't last my time." when his time is about to be up.

Indeed, it's his watch that's slow--we've just said how accurate the staircase clock is.

JoanK

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #928 on: April 30, 2012, 06:32:53 PM »
I have a feeling we'll see those clocks again.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #929 on: April 30, 2012, 07:06:43 PM »
aha so it is Tulkinghorn's time piece that is 2 minutes slow - a twist in any logic I was trying for - seems to me Rule Britannia continues triumverant in all its magnificence. Unknowing of his imminent death the concept of him being in his subconscious believing he could outgun the Deadlocks in control and secrets may still be his basic thinking hidden even to himself, all the while the watch was slowly ticking away his appointment with death.

Two minutes off - him was the watch hit by the bullet and stopped at the time of death with that two minutes saving George - if George was there and none of us think he did it than someone else had to be in the house at the same time.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #930 on: May 01, 2012, 09:08:38 AM »
  And to think I  that little check of the watch a second thought.  To me, just a small, quick
clue to Tulkinghorn's smug satisfaction with the outcome of his meeting with Lady Dedlock.
The words, 'you won't last my time' do hold a good deal of irony, tho', don't they?

 The question is asked as to how do the various personalities of the story show their character
in regard to Caddie's illness?  Now that I come to think of it, we are given a good, quick review
of what kind of person each character is.  Each reacts exactly as you would expect them, too.
The good-hearted are concerned and kind.  The selfish are concerned only about how it affects
their affairs.  Those who love her are devoted to doing all they can for her.  Perhaps this is the
reason this illness was included in the story?

ps...thank you for all your kind remarks about the character groupings.  It was a lot of work,
but it was work I loved to do.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #931 on: May 01, 2012, 09:59:55 AM »
What a section!  All sorts of things happen, but we STILL don't know who the murderer is.  Can't you just imagine the readers tearing their hair when they get to the end of the installment.  Bucket knows who did it, his case is almost complete, and they have to wait another month.  At least we only have five days.

Laura

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #932 on: May 01, 2012, 11:30:24 AM »
Can't you just imagine the readers tearing their hair when they get to the end of the installment.  Bucket knows who did it, his case is almost complete, and they have to wait another month.  At least we only have five days.
LOL!  I agree!

Boy, Dickens was laying it on thick that Lady Dedlock is the murderer!  I still don't believe it though.  But I am wondering...

JoanK

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #933 on: May 01, 2012, 01:38:39 PM »
The questions are up for Chapters 50-53. We still don't know whodunnit by the end of 53. I had to sit on my eyes to keep from reading on to find out, but I managed. Anyone who did read on PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DON'T give anything away to the rest of us.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #934 on: May 01, 2012, 01:45:50 PM »
Chapter 50 - what a nice little chapter - reminds me of in music called a Coda - linking one section of music to another - Caddy's illness allowed Dickens to bring back into the story Woodcourt  and for the image of the young Caddy in Ester's lap to foreshadow the dependent relationship Ada had with Esther that sets up a new mystery - what ails Ada - What is Ada's secret - it also sets up the dynamics of Woodcourt versus Bleak House??!!?? not Woodcourt versus John Jarndyce but versus Bleak House - my oh my but that is how Dickens phrases it.

Wasn't there a study some years ago about how pretty children received more attention in school - looks like all anyone had to do was read Dickens - between Ada and Mr. Turveydrop they are proving that life comes to them sparkling and glittering because they please the eye with Turveydrop knowing that is the affect.

I must say I did read a piece that impressed me that suggested when  we cut our lawn and paint our houses we are leaving candy for passerbys and so in like manner we should give attention to our outward appearance. Dickens seems to be making the case for inner appearance with Esther as his spokesperson.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #935 on: May 01, 2012, 02:14:34 PM »
Looks like we are moving along with the Ada's mystery - such a wonderful mood setting paragraph

Quote
We were soon equipped and went out. It was a sombre day, and drops of chill rain fell at intervals. It was one of those colourless days when everything looks heavy and harsh. The houses frowned at us, the dust rose at us, the smoke swooped at us, nothing made any compromise about itself or wore a softened aspect. I fancied my beautiful girl quite out of place in the rugged streets, and I thought there were more funerals passing along the dismal pavements than I had ever seen before.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #936 on: May 01, 2012, 02:17:14 PM »
Ok I am caught - hurry and read to find out what happens next or savor each chapter - as if the chapters for the month were just distributed and some would hustle home and read feeling only anxiety and anticipation for the next months excerpts and others I could imagine reading a chapter a week after Sunday Dinner so they could dwell all week on that part of the story - me oh my - Laura I think your patience mentioned earlier has some real merit.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Jonathan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #937 on: May 01, 2012, 02:42:27 PM »
Whodunnit? This is a tough one. Have a dozen suspects have been suggested. But how about the guy on the ceiling? Did he play a role in all this? The pointing finger could be seen as accusatory. If we reduce the suspects to those who called on Mr Tulkinghorn, which one looked most often to that painted ceiling? The perpetrator must have felt some moral justification for what he was doing in that pointing finger. Did Mr T represent everything wrong with justice in Victorian England? It seemed to be failing so many. Except the Dedlocks of the land. It makes Hortense such a likely, although ironic, candidate, coming from the land of revolution, and prone to vengeful actions. Was Bleak House meant as a warning. Sir Leicester was convinced things were crumbling.

'Kept guessing to the very end.' I hope I'm not giving anything away by suggesting that even at the end we're left guessing.

The ticking clocks make a great beginning to Mr Tulkinghorn's last mile, with all of nature holding its breath until the shot rings out. He didn't deserve it, surrounded by villains as he was. He always acted professionally. He chose the wrong office.

Jonathan

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #938 on: May 01, 2012, 03:03:10 PM »
Lady Dedlock is too haunted to commit murder. I see Esther as the ghost in this story.

Mr Guppy? Absolutely not. He woud know it's against the law.

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #939 on: May 01, 2012, 08:55:51 PM »
Now Jonathan, there's a thought!  Will we be left guessing at the end?  Oh, I hope not!  Couldn't stand another Edwin Drood - but understood why that had no ending. Can you think of another Dickens' novel without a clear ending?

I loved the the walk in the dark, alternating the description of the lady and the lawyer.  - Did you get the feeling that Lady Dedlock was following Tulkinghorn home?  She did go out through the garden gate - immediately after he left the house.   But no, I can't believe that she had a gun and followed him home and shot him in the heart.  Did Dickens convince any of his readers that she was desperate enough to kill him to keep him from revealing her secret to her husband?  

 

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #940 on: May 01, 2012, 09:02:52 PM »
The new installment - an abrupt change of scenery to Caddy's sickroom.  No one seems to have heard about the murder yet.  Not surprising that Caddy sent for Esther, who else, but her poor little baby's godmother.  Why is the baby portrayed as such a pathetic little thing?   The grandmother is there - Mrs. Jellyby. We're told she visits her sick daughter but not paying any attention to her ailing daughter - or to little Esther, her granddaughter.  I'm wondering why she bothered to come to visit.  No, I wonder why Dickens even brought her into the room.  Will these characters play a role in the upcoming chapters?  I'm not sure we are all gathered at Caddy's home, except to bring Esther, John Jarndyce and Allan Woodcourt into the same room. 
It appears that Esther hasn't told him - or anyone - of the engagement yet.  Do you notice how she avoids using the word, "engagement" - always talks about becoming Mistress of Bleak House -
Woodcourt seems to be planning another trip.  Jarndyce wants to make him rich.  Why is that?  Does he appear needy?    Does he have a medical practice?  He doesn't seem to have any paying patients since his return.

 Is Esther showing any interest in Woodcourt? 

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #941 on: May 02, 2012, 08:28:33 AM »
I think there was some mention of Woodcourt assisting Mr. Badger, for which he would get paid.  Woodcourt does seem to have trouble getting established, though, and Jarndyce wants him to have money so he can settle down and not have to go to sea again.

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #942 on: May 02, 2012, 08:33:53 AM »
Ah, thank you, BARB. Of course...Caddy's illness was used to bring Esther and
Woodcourt together again. That explains it.

 Oh, Jonathan, I do hope we're not left 'guessing' about anything at the end of
the book. Surely it's only more modern authors who leave their readers with blank
expressions, thinking, 'What? What was that all about?!!'  Dickens is much nicer
about letting us know how everyone is doing at the end of his books.
 So, what's next?  Are we ready for Ch. 51?   I am eager to move on; so much is
happening.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #943 on: May 02, 2012, 09:58:35 AM »
Not only Esther and Woodcourt (if, in fact, they do get together) but also Ada and Richard.  Now that Ada is of age, she doesn't need permission to marry, and so they do, rather impulsively.  "It was not a long-considered step.  We went out one morning and were married."  What happened to putting up the banns and having to wait 3 weeks?

And all the action is in London.  They need to be there for the murder, George's arrest, etc.

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #944 on: May 02, 2012, 10:22:51 AM »
When it was clear there was something wrong with Ada - something she couldn't talk to Esther about, I thought of two scenarios - that she had fallen in love with Allan or that she was pregnant.  She's not pregnant, I gather - but she did marry Richard, banns or no banns, Pat..

Before moving into the Ada/Richard chapter, I'd like to share some information I found on the question in the heading -  regarding the reference to "rich as a Jew."  Something we don't see too often in modern literature...but was this stereotype prevalent in the 19th century?  My first thought was of Fagin in Oliver Twist, written in 1838 - 14 years before Bleak House.  I did a bit of research on the reference to Jews in the 19th century - found this...


"In nineteenth-century English literature, the most common portrayal of a Jew was a negative racial stereotype. In society, and thus in literature, Jews were often seen in terms of their “otherness”—their difference in appearance, social standing, religion and morality with respect to their non-Jewish counterparts.

Even when Jews gained political equality in England with the passage of numerous reforms and a rise in realism in fiction caused novelists writing in the mid-1800s to look increasingly to real life rather than to established stereotypes as inspiration for their writing, Jews were (aside from a few more balanced portrayals) still depicted in extreme terms: as completely evil or as impossibly virtuous; as people seeking complete assimilation into English culture or as adamantly separatist; as wealthy politicians and international financiers or as lowly impoverished immigrants.

Charles Dickens produced one of the most famous examples of the stereotypical “evil Jew”—the character of Fagin in Oliver Twist (1838). Certain novelists attempted in later novels to “atone” for a negative portrayal of Jews in earlier novels."  
http://site.iugaza.edu.ps/rareer/contact/courses/victorian-age/the-portrayal-of-jews-in-nineteenth-century-english-literature

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #945 on: May 02, 2012, 10:31:46 AM »
When I saw that remark in the book, it horrified me, made me really feel the difference between then and now.  I'm not used to such talk anymore, and it leaves a bad taste.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #946 on: May 02, 2012, 12:07:45 PM »
Not knowing the information you found JoanP my reaction was maybe it was a mixed message of admiration - my thought was based on the Jews were kicked out of England as they were in Spain and a few other European nations in the very late sixteenth and early seventeenth century with the King of England needing the money and loans provided by families like the Rothechilds so that the wealthy Jews of England remained under the protection of the King.

It was during the reign of Victoria that the Rothechilds were elevated to nobility which is when they were blessed with the largest private fortune in the world. The Rothechilds were major bankers in Paris and in Austria where they were honored with noble titles in the early nineteenth century before Dickens wrote this book - and close to his writing Bleak House, in 1847, Sir Anthony de Rothschild was made a hereditary baronet of the United Kingdom.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Laura

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #947 on: May 02, 2012, 02:03:34 PM »
It is interesting to me that we can come up with many good reasons why each character could not have committed the murder, but not as many reasons as to why any of them could have murdered Mr. Tulkinghorn.  I think that says something about how Dickens intentionally constructed the book and the characters.  I don’t think we are supposed to be able to figure it out.  But, gosh Jonathan, to be left hanging?  Well, it would depend on how the author handled leaving us up in the air…

I was surprised to find out that Esther had not told anyone about her engagement.  Odd.

I don’t think Esther has any romantic interest in Mr. Woodcourt. 
“I saw a good deal of Mr. Woodcourt during this time, though not so much as might be supposed; for, knowing Caddy to be safe in his hands, I often slipped home at about the hours when he was expected.  We frequently met, notwithstanding.  I was quite reconciled to myself now; but I still felt glad to think that he was sorry for me, and he still was sorry for me I believed.”

The characters who visited Caddy were all very much “in character.”  I didn’t read anything that surprised me.

I was shocked to find out that Ada and Richard had married!  I had noticed a clue in the prior chapter. 
“And I noticed as I kissed my dear, that she lay with one hand under her pillow so that it was hidden.” 
That detail struck me as a bit odd.  That’s why I remembered it.  If we are expected to notice one sentence clues like this one throughout the book, it is no wonder this book takes such a detailed reading and time for digestion!

The end of the chapter leaves Esther fearing, “I might not have been all I had meant to be, since the letter and the answer.”  Esther appears to be as confused as to how to act in her relationship with Mr. Jarndyce as I am about how they should be acting!

JudeS

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #948 on: May 02, 2012, 02:06:40 PM »
There really is very little good to say about Dicken's attitude to Jews and Judaism. He spoke to the masses and wrote what they wanted to hear on this subject.
However, another writer, living about the same time as Dickens, George Elliot (Mary Ann Evans 1819-1880),had a very different understanding and attitude toward this subject.
Virginia Woolf has called Elliot's "Middlemarch" ,one of the few English novels for grown up people."
In her final book, Daniel Deronda,Elliot features the quest of the Hero to discover and embrace his Jewish birthright and seek a political destiny in Palestine. Indeed , though not Jewish, she was one of the forerunners of Zionism.  This was based on her belief that moral elevation is tied to a persons religous and national identity. She forsaw the need for a national identity in Palestine for the Jewish People.
What an amazing woman!

JudeS

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #949 on: May 02, 2012, 02:11:31 PM »
There really is very little good to say about Dicken's attitude to Jews and Judaism. He spoke to the masses and wrote what they wanted to hear on this subject.
However, another writer, living about the same time as Dickens, George Elliot (Mary Ann Evans 1819-1880),had a very different understanding and attitude toward this subject.
Virginia Woolf has called Elliot's "Middlemarch" ,one of the few English novels for grown up people."
In her final book, Daniel Deronda,Elliot features the quest of the Hero to discover and embrace his Jewish birthright and seek a political destiny in Palestine. Indeed , though not Jewish, she was one of the forerunners of Zionism.  This was based on her belief that moral elevation is tied to a persons religous and national identity. She forsaw the need for a national identity in Palestine for the Jewish People.
What an amazing woman!

JudeS

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #950 on: May 02, 2012, 02:13:05 PM »
Sorry for the double post. How it happened is too silly and too complex to tell you.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #951 on: May 02, 2012, 02:32:27 PM »
 ;)  :D All is meant to be - we hear you...  :-*
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanK

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #952 on: May 02, 2012, 02:42:04 PM »
JUDE: goodpoints about the difference between Dickens and Eliot. We are all prisoners of the times in which we live, and often adopt the prejudices of those times without thinking. Only exceptional people (like Eliot) can see beyond them.

"Jews were often seen in terms of their “otherness”—"

George Simmel (a Jew) In his essay "The Stranger" said "I write not of the stranger who is here today and gone tomorrow but of the stranger who is here today and still here tomorrow."

I was reminded of this by Dickens' description of Bucket: "Like man in the abstract, he is here today and gone tomorrow-- but very like man indeed, he is here again the next day." 

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #953 on: May 02, 2012, 03:03:32 PM »
Dickens attitude towards Jews could be looked at according to which of his books you read - Fagin  in "Oliver Twist" is considered a direct hit at the Jew. However, he writes Riah in "Our Mutual Friend," as a character at the other extreme—almost impossibly, certainly improbably, good. In both "Oliver Twist" and "Our Mutual Friend" Dickens does stereotype publicly accepted characteristics but from opposite points of view.

I just do not see John Jarndyce as a character with malice or ill will and so I am still betting on Dickens reference to the wealthiest man in the world living in England was a Jew and was honored, raised to Baronet and further in 1850 another Rothechild became the first practising Jewish member of the British Parliament. Seems to me Dickens was about changing opinion and John Jarndyce is a character, along with Esther for women that optimize the nobleness in kindness and providing care and security to others. I guess like anything we read into it what we want based on where we are at - I think it was a sly way of giving honor celebrating who achieved the greatest wealth.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #954 on: May 02, 2012, 06:42:21 PM »
Actually, I don't think Dickens meant a darn thing by his comment.  It was a knee-jerk reaction to him, like saying "red-headed Scotsman", and that's what bothered me.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #955 on: May 03, 2012, 12:35:02 AM »
The running footman, like a Mercury - cannot find anything that says directly but it appears that running footmen could be all called Mercuries. Which gives new meaning to the encounter with Bucket and the Mercury at the entry.

Quote
My Lord's running footman] I have often seen skimming or flying across the road; one of them I particularly remember; his dress, a white jacket, blue silk sash round his waist, light black-velvet cap, with a silver tassel on the crown, round his neck a frill with a ribbon, and in his hand a staff about seven feet high with a silver top. He looked so agile, and seemed all air like a Mercury: he never minded the roads, but took the shortest cut, and by the help of his pole absolutely seemed to fly over hedge, ditch and small river

Chosen for their endurance as well as their speed, running footmen served several purposes. On journeys, the running footman ran ahead of his master's coach to announce his arrival at inns or other houses. In a time when bad roads were a part of all travel, he could run forward and return with reports on conditions ahead. He could be sent to carry important messages or packages, or to summon a physician in an emergency. For some masters, the running footman was also considered a status-symbol for sport, and like a prized thoroughbred horse or dog, and raced against other footmen with hefty wagers on the outcome.

As a combination long-distance runner and bike-messenger, running footmen could be fast indeed, with the best ones recorded as covering seven miles in an hour, and capable of running sixty miles in a day – although, like horses, no one expected them to do this day after day. Costume and livery varied, but a long staff in the hand was a constant, used as a symbolic mark of the position, as a pole to help leap over brooks, and as a weapon to fend off dogs. It also could carry refreshment. The decorative, silver-headed top of the staff often had a small compartment for wine, or, in some cases, to carry a hard-boiled egg.

As roads improved in the 19th c., running footmen gradually disappeared – they live on in the names of several famous English pubs and taverns.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Babi

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #956 on: May 03, 2012, 09:21:30 AM »
 Interesting sideline there, JOAN. I immediately thought of Shakespeare's "Merchant
of Venice".  While his character is presented with many of the Jewish stereotypes,
he also presented the Jew's anger at this treatment.
   Shylock: I am a Jew. .....  If you prick us, do we not bleed? if you
tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison us, do we not die?


 "I was quite reconciled to myself now; but I still felt glad to think that he was
sorry for me, and he still was sorry for me I believed.”
 Laura, it seemed to me
that Esther's use of the word 'reconciled' meant that she did have at least dreams
of a future with Alan Woodcourt. She gave them up when she accepted John Jarndyce's
proposal, but she was glad to think Woodcourt cared enough to be sorry for her.

 Loved the info about the mercuries, BARB. It's fascinating, and explains for me
how messages and notes could be written and replied to so swiftly in those times.
 
  We're looking at Ada and Richard again, and I wanted to note this..    Dickens, writing of the changes that have taken place in Richard’s appearance,  speaking thru’ Esther, makes an observation and comment.  He  writes, “But the commentary upon it is now
indelibly written in his handsome face, made it far more distressing than it used to be. I say indelibly; for I felt persuaded that if the fatal cause could have been for ever terminated, according to its brightest visions, in that same hour, the traces of the premature anxiety, self-reproach, and disappointment it had occasioned him, would have remained upon his features to the hour of his death.”

  What do you think?   If by some miracle Jarndyce and Jarndyce were brought to a successful
close and Richard had his fortune (what was left of it),  would success and prosperity have restored him?  Would he be triumphant and feel it was all worthwhile, and proved how right he was?   Even so, would the traces of bitterness, anxiety, cynicism and suspicion still leave their
mark?

"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #957 on: May 03, 2012, 10:08:13 AM »
Not to belabor the point...well, maybe I am, but must add a bit to yesterday's conversation.  Dickens isn't here to explain his position or defend himself but maybe his actions can put his his comment on rich Jews in Bleak House in perspective . Perhaps it's noteworthy that this was the only instance in which he mentions Jews in the entire lengthy novel.

"We are all prisoners of the times in which we live, and often adopt the prejudices of those times without thinking." JoanK
Earlier we have spoken of Dickens' habit of incorporating friends, neighbors,  acquaintances into the characters in his episodes. Readers delighted in recognizing these actual personnages in his work.
Fagin is noted for being one of the few characters of 19th century English literature, let alone any of Dickens's pieces, who is described as Jewish. Dickens took Fagin's name from a friend he had known in his youth while working in a boot-blacking factory, but Fagin's character was based on a well-known criminal, Ikey Solomon, who was a fence at the centre of a highly-publicised arrest, escape, recapture, and trial. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikey_Solomon

Some background on Dickens behavior following the early publication of Oliver Twist - "The first 38 chapters of the book refer to Fagin  257 times, calling him "the Jew", with just 42 uses of "Fagin" or "the old man".
In later editions of the book printed during his lifetime, Dickens excised many of the references to Fagin's Jewishness, removing over 180 instances of 'Jew' from the first edition text.This occurred after Dickens sold his London home to a Jewish banker, James Davis in 1860, and became acquainted with him and his wife Eliza, who objected to the emphasis on Fagin's Jewishness in the novel.

In one of his final public readings in 1869, a year before his death, Dickens cleansed Fagin of all stereotypical caricature."
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fagin

Can we conclude from this that when Dickens portrayed Fagin in "Oliver Twist", he was creating a character who, as Jude says, "spoke to the masses and wrote what they wanted to hear on this subject" - in order to entertain them?  But that when he became aware that the "pricking" was painful, he "atoned" as other mid nineteenth c. writers had begun to do?  

I'm inclined to conclude that his one comment in Bleak House was not intended to be hurtful to a people, or express anything but perhaps admiration in hoping that Allan Woodcourt could be so fortunate.  But again, we see things from where we are sitting...

It just occurred  - that since this mention is one detail  - and Dickens has slipped in these single details that have become important in the story,   maybe there is a reason, for including it here, rather than view the comment as a thoughtless inclusion?  

JoanP

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #958 on: May 03, 2012, 10:19:17 AM »
"I don’t think we are supposed to be able to figure it out."  Laura, that'a an interesting thought.  You might be right.  I do think though, that we will have many "aha" moments as the story unravels - remembering the details that seemed unimportant at the time we read  them.  As group, I think we've done a remarkable job picking up on them - and will not feel we've been unfairly led to the conclusion without haven't been provided necessary information.  In other words, we might not be able to figure it out, but we won't be surprised when we reach the end.  Well, not too surprised, anyway. :D

Barbara, very interesting information on the role of the Mercuries in the story.  I'm sure they possess a lot of information, knowing so well the road between Chesney Wold and the townhouse.  In a very early chapter, Norton provides a footnote describing the role of the god, Mercury -, adding a rather ominous dimension to their role in the story -
 This reference occurs as "the old gentleman, {Mr. Tulkinghorn} is escorted by a Mercury in powder*, to my Lady's presence."

*"a footman whose hair has been powdered.  One of the roles of the god Mercury was to conduct the souls of the dead to Hades."

marcie

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Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #959 on: May 03, 2012, 10:28:45 AM »
“I saw a good deal of Mr. Woodcourt during this time, though not so much as might be supposed; for, knowing Caddy to be safe in his hands, I often slipped home at about the hours when he was expected.  We frequently met, notwithstanding.  I was quite reconciled to myself now; but I still felt glad to think that he was sorry for me, and he still was sorry for me I believed.”

I think that dear Esther protests too much. She says she is "quite reconciled" but I sense stronger feelings for Mr. Woodcourt than she wants to admit. Why does she want to slip home at times when she knows he will be visiting Caddy? She seems glad that he has feelings for her, even though she thinks they are from pity. "...and he still was sorry for me I believed.” She admits she has been interpreting his feelings (she believes his looks, words, actions stem from being sorry for her.) It seems that he has been paying attention to Esther. Maybe there is more on his part than pity.