Author Topic: Women in Greek Drama (Read 81500 times)

JoanK · « **on:** April 13, 2012, 06:13:17 PM »

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WOMEN IN GREEK DRAMA

Greek Theater at Epidauros

Ever wonder what Greek women were doing while Socrates and Plato were spouting philosophy? Greece was a male-dominated society, but Greek drama has produced some of the strongest women characters in literature. Here we will read plays by the greatest Greek dramatists, meet some of these women, and see why their stories have lasted thousands of years.

So don your chitons and your sandals and come to the theater above, as we watch the three greatest playwrights of antiquity strut their stuff!

Antigone--Sophocles
May15-?
Agamemnon--Aeschylus
Iphigenia in Tauris--Euripides

Antigone Online
Agamemnon Online

DLs: JoanK and PatH

JoanK · « **Reply #1 on:** April 14, 2012, 02:34:19 PM »

Welcome back to Ancient Greece. Or, if you haven't been here before, double welcome.

Our plan is to read three of the plays that got the most votes last year. They all feature women who take matters into their own hands (sometimes with tragic results), so I thought we could use that as a theme to bind the discussion together. But there's a lot more to talk about.

First on the menu is "Antigone" by Sophocles. Speeches from this play have been widely quoted both as jusrtification for civil disobedience and as a strong argument for obeying the rule of law. Which side will we take? Or can we balance them? What is Sophocles saying? What does it tell us about Athens at that time?

You can see, I can't wait!

Next comes "Agamemnon" by Aescylus. Those of you who read the Odyssey with us last year know the story of him and his wife Clytemnestra. Here we have a chance to meet her, and see what we think. As well as what we think of the dramatic power of Aescylus.

Last, I thought we could turn from tragedy and read a play with a happy ending. (What, a Greek play with a happy ending? yes, they did that, too!) Iphigenia in Tauris is not as well known as the other two, but I figure we need a break! (After we read Agamemnon, you're going to think I'm nuts: a story about Iphigenia with a happy ending? But you'll see!)

So are you game? there'll be plenty of good company, and of course wine to drink. Let us know who's going with us.

PatH · « **Reply #2 on:** April 14, 2012, 02:57:00 PM »

Welcome, everyone. This is going to be fun.

Frybabe · « **Reply #3 on:** April 14, 2012, 03:36:43 PM »

JoanK · « **Reply #4 on:** April 15, 2012, 02:57:11 PM »

Fry: I hope you're marking your spot, and not digging for buried treasure.

Frybabe · « **Reply #5 on:** April 15, 2012, 06:22:13 PM »

straudetwo · « **Reply #6 on:** April 15, 2012, 07:19:17 PM »

What a glorious and inspiring header we have ! Thank you, JoanK..

Although I lean toward ordering the Eglish translation of Antigone by Paul Woodruff, the decision is not fr off.

PatH · « **Reply #7 on:** April 15, 2012, 09:09:23 PM »

Let us know what you get, Traude. At the moment, I've got a library book , translated by Dudley Fitts and Robert Fitzgerald, but I'd like to order something else. My favorite real live bookstore, Politics and Prose, let me down--didn't even have it.

roshanarose · « **Reply #8 on:** April 15, 2012, 11:27:32 PM »

It IS exciting! I have had the pleasure of visiting the theatre (Aus/UK spelling) of Epidavros twice. It is a marvel in acoustics and a magnificent piece of architecture, and steeped in history and atmosphere. Sigh....

When I was a member of flickr I got to know several modern Greek folks. And, Yes, two of the ladies names were actually Iphigenia and Antigone. I have met several Greek 'Elenis; one Aphrodite; several Anastasias and more that I can't remember. The Greeks still live their myths.

btw I am going to see my doctor for my flu vaccine today and his name is Aristotle. He is not Greek, however, but Filipino.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #9 on:** April 16, 2012, 01:34:33 AM »

when does this start - I really want to continue with Bleak House but Antigone has been on my list forever and is one of those books I did not feel confident to tackle alone - Since I leave for most of June I am hoping Antigone will be read and discussed in May.

JoanK · « **Reply #10 on:** April 16, 2012, 01:38:00 PM »

WELCOME, ALL! We had planned to start May 15th so as not to interfere with the Dickens discussion too much. But we'll see if we can wait that long. In any case, Antigone will be discussed in May.

Here is a fascinating video about the theater (about 5 minutes):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNAM3PzGcow&feature=related

So you've been there, Rose? How exciting. Is it as dramatic in real life? The perfect setting to see the drama of life, death, and fate!

JoanK · « **Reply #11 on:** April 16, 2012, 01:56:33 PM »

I'm struck by the statement in the video that Greek theater was a musical experience! This is a whole dimention of greek culture that is lost to us since we don't know what Greek music sounded like. Perhaps we should think of these plays as being akin to our operatic tradition?

That makes me think of them differently. Are there any opera-lovers in the group? I am not one, but, correct me if I'm wrong, aren't operas watched/listened to differently than (non-operetic) drama? In opera, isn't the important thing the fusing of music and drama to create fulll expression of emotion and the human condition? In doing that, it does without some elements of other drama: subtle characterization, philosophical depth, complicated plots (in most cases).

What do you all think?

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #12 on:** April 16, 2012, 03:30:49 PM »

Opera only started as a music form in the late 16th century - there is whole history of music that built from a single voice with a single melody to much later a double voice singing different but harmonic tunes - often the first choral groups, there would be one voice that sang what today we would call the melody and the other voices formed a backdrop that was like a drone - some of the early instruments are based on that system - like a 4 or 6 string Mountain Dulcimer that was played by striking all the strings and only noting the melody on one string so that the other strings create this drone sound - yes, like a bag pipe.

Seems to me there is Egyptian music - I would have to pull my books out again - but if so, Egyptian civilization is older than Greek Civilization - my guess is a chorus would be like the drone with one person either talking or with some melody telling the story - the drone sound could even be as a result of a spoken sound said in a certain tone and in unison.

Also, the sound would be different - the modes have Greek names - much Southern mountain music is in modes rather than our scales - a scale is a series of full notes and half notes or steps between each sound - a mode is only full notes that the start sounds like a note from our modern scale and then goes up with a different sound since there are no half notes.

The mode most often remembered by folks is the Dorian which is in full notes from what we know as E - to a higher E -

I understand the various modes were established given their names based on the sounds that folks or the tribes made from these various areas of ancient Greece

The various modes have a different over all sound - some melancholy some bright and still others somber so that certain kinds of music were assigned certain modes and given the mode the reason for the music is established -

Seems to me knowing the instruments would help although a chorus did not utilize an instrument for many centuries later. We know of a lyre, a pan pipe, a Kathara, most likely a drum but all instruments that are played as a single sound rather than in unison. I believe Opera came about after Sonatas and maybe even after symphonies were first written.

roshanarose · « **Reply #13 on:** April 16, 2012, 10:51:48 PM »

Barb - Good summary there.

FYI - Chorus, Music, Drama are all Ancient Greek words. I could write them in Greek for you but I don't think it will mean anything to anyone, although it means a lot to me

JoanK - Like many places in Greece, Epidavros is not easy to describe. You really must visit. The famous acoustics ensure that even when sitting in the top row (and it is a very very big theatre) one can here a piece of paper being crumbled on stage. Only Australians dare to sing there, they say. Imagine listening to Joan Sutherland singing there? They still do have Greek plays in the summer months at Epidavros, but more often at the beautiful, although smaller, theatre near the Acropolis. That would be a once in a lifetime experience for me. Problem is that Athens is very hot in the summer months and the pavement burns. I can do without that as I live in a hot city. I prefer to visit early September and stay for at least 6 weeks. Unfortunately, my 2004 visit to Greece was my last. But I can still dream, and do, of Greece, and relive my experiences of everywhere I went when I look at my beloved photos and books.

btw The Musical equivalent (The Pythian Games) of the Olympic Games was held at Delphi in honour of Apollo.

http://www.ancienthistoryarchaeology.com/delphi.htm

I won't get started on how beautiful Delphi is. Just take my word for it.

straudetwo · « **Reply #14 on:** April 16, 2012, 11:04:20 PM »

An intriguing question, JoanK.

We know there was some form of music; and the lyre was known, and there is a representation of Apollo with his instrument.

I found a reference on the web which is quite detailed on the subject,. Unfortunately, my attempts to post the URL and make it clickable were not successful.

Here it is :

en.wikipedia/org/wiki/Music_of_ancient_Greece

More tomorrow
Traude

roshanarose · « **Reply #15 on:** April 17, 2012, 12:05:27 AM »

To roshanarose:

The unforgivable has happened. I just made two mistakes in one line

See below:

can here a piece of paper being crumbled on stage

Should be:

can hear a piece of paper being crumpled on stage

JoanK · « **Reply #16 on:** April 17, 2012, 03:14:15 PM »

Rose: the unforgivable happens to me every day!

Traude: is this the site? Usual warning about Wiki: may not be reliable. But very interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_ancient_Greece

JoanK · « **Reply #17 on:** April 17, 2012, 03:36:46 PM »

Here is the only example given that shows actual musical notation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Delphichymn.jpg

The musical nootation is very simple: (the occasional letters above the text) perhaps indicating a note for each word?

Apparently, music tried to get more complicated, according to te quotes from Plato. He sounds exactly like me, and every other Senior I know -- complaining that the music the young people are playing is terrible, not like it used to be! Some things never change!

Specifically, he says that the instrument player should play exactly the note that the singer is singing, and not throw in extra notes or beats. Not clear whether he is talking about an early development of harmony?

JoanK · « **Reply #18 on:** April 18, 2012, 06:23:44 PM »

In the drama class that I catch when I can on a local college TV station, the teacher was talking about the difference between theater and TV or movies. he made two interesting points: in watching Tv or a movie, you go into a passive, receptive mode. But in the theater, which requires both a live audience and live actors, the fact that your there live watching live people means you are more active: prepared for anything to happen.

Too bad we won't be able to see these plays live.

JoanK · « **Reply #19 on:** April 18, 2012, 06:26:31 PM »

In the other point, he was probablt thinking of European drama tradition, but I wonder if it applies to the Greeks. He said that theater originally had a religious purpose, and has never completely escaped that. it has some overtones of a religious ceremony.

What do you think? does that make sense?

roshanarose · « **Reply #20 on:** April 18, 2012, 11:01:25 PM »

JoanK - Without researching the overtones of religious ceremony in Greek theatre I suppose you could categorise the Pythian Games at Delphi, devoted to music as having religious overtones. The Games were in honour of Apollo. But most likely other gods or goddesses were worshipped at Delphi. There were gods in everything for the Ancient Greeks. That is where the prefix Pan- has its origin as in pantheon. pantheistic etc. It is not to be confused with the great god Pan - who is responsible for our word "panic".

Babi · « **Reply #21 on:** April 19, 2012, 05:46:06 PM »

HERE! Hopefully, I'll be picking up a copy of Antigone tomorrow. Let you
know what I find.

JoanK · « **Reply #22 on:** April 19, 2012, 06:20:53 PM »

Great!

straudetwo · « **Reply #23 on:** April 19, 2012, 10:03:27 PM »

JoanK, thank you for posting the URL relative to Greek music in your reply # 17. t
I have been mindful of the caveat ever since I found disturbing inaccuracies on line in dates of European history and biographical notations pertainig to some European writers. Years ago some of the information presented on line seemed to have been copied straight from encyclopedias or possibly textbooks, and was easily recognizable as such.

My books (paperbacks) arrived today : Antigone, translated by Paul Woodruff, and the Oresteia by Aeschylus in a translation by Robert Fagles. The Oresteia contains three plays : Agamemnon, The Libation Bearers, The Eumenides.. I needed Agamemnn and wanted the translation by Fagles, but couldn't get Agamemnon alone. The prices were moderate and, in order to take advantage of free shipping, I ordered two more books by Elaine Pagels.
I've only had time to leaf through Antigone and am absolutely delighted with Woodruff's excellent translation.

JoanK · « **Reply #24 on:** April 20, 2012, 06:40:22 PM »

Great!

straudetwo · « **Reply #25 on:** April 20, 2012, 11:20:22 PM »

Antigone is the third play in a trilogy known as Sophocles' Theban Plays, preceded by Oedious the King, aka Oedipus Rex), and Oedipus a Colonus. Antigone is set in the same location as the preceding play (Thebes) and has the same characters. The play opens at a moment of high tension and anxious uncertainty.

To my knowledge, the printed translations include an introduction with background, but the online version does not seem to have one. But there's no reason to worry, for Edith Hamilton's Mythology is a most reliable guide.

Babi · « **Reply #26 on:** April 21, 2012, 09:33:29 AM »

I selected my Antigone at the library yesterday. They had three different translations. One I did
not like as he chose to tranlate 'modern', using contractions like 'that's'. I want my translations
to sound more like ancient Greek. A second translator, from his foreword and commentary,
seemed a little too pleased with his own cleverness. (I'll mention no names.) My translater
of choice is H. D. F. Kitto. Never heard of him, but apparently he is a British scholar who has
written several books on the Greeks and Greek tragedy.
My first surprise, from the introduction, was to learn that all three of these Sophocles tragedies
take place over the course of one day. That's plunging right into the story, isn't it?

JoanK · « **Reply #27 on:** April 21, 2012, 01:43:29 PM »

" all three of these Sophocles tragedies take place over the course of one day".

This is part of the Greek theory of drama, that calls for "unity of time and place".

There's lots of background we'll need for these plays, both in terms of plot and in terms of Greek drama. Don't worry, It'll all be here.

PatH · « **Reply #28 on:** April 21, 2012, 02:21:49 PM »

Quote from: straudetwo on April 20, 2012, 11:20:22 PM

To my knowledge, the printed translations include an introduction with background, but the online version does not seem to have one. But there's no reason to worry, for Edith Hamilton's Mythology is a most reliable guide.

I can recommend Hamilton's Mythology to anyone who wants a book of that sort, but it has one drawback--it tends to hide in corners.

I own 3 copies. I bought one many years ago on the advice of a friend who was getting her Master's degree in Classical Studies. When we discussed The Iliad, I couldn't find my copy anywhere, so I bought another. Eventually the older copy surfaced. Six months ago, while clearing out some bookshelves in the basement, I found a third copy, a yellowing paperback, printed in 1953, price 50 cents. Bob must have bought it before we were married.

A month ago, I was rearranging books, and I remember thinking "Must remember where I put the Hamilton. At least it's a logical place." Can't find it. Back to the yellowing paperback, which I was going to throw out.

JoanK · « **Reply #29 on:** April 21, 2012, 02:30:29 PM »

I can't find mine either. Maybe they ran off with each other!

straudetwo · « **Reply #30 on:** April 21, 2012, 03:49:26 PM »

Babi, re # 26

With respect, only the second and third drama of Sophocles' Theban Plays take place on the same day in the same location with the same characters.
The first one, Oedipus the King, provides the essential family background : that before Oedipus' birth, his father, King Laius and wife, Quen Jocasta, were told by the Oracle that the child she was expecting would kill his father and marry his own mother. To preven any of this, King Laius ordered the baby killed. Instead, the baby was rescued and raised with loving parents, who failed to tell him that he was not their own son. Oedipus had heard rumors to that effect and, blessed by the parents, set out to discover the gtruth. Sufiffice it to say, the prophecy was ulfilled.
IMHO we cannot fully understand Antigone unless we are aware of the tragic family background andt he inevitability of the ending.

There is much information available on line on e.g. Oedipus,Creon, and especially Antigone. We have much to learn about all of them, don't we ?

mabel1015j · « **Reply #31 on:** April 21, 2012, 05:38:02 PM »

I just saw you were doing this, i'm really busy these two weeks, so may just lurk, but am anxious to read the discussion.

Jean

PatH · « **Reply #32 on:** April 21, 2012, 07:27:53 PM »

Welcome, Jean, lurking or talking. You have more time than you think. The original plan was to start the discussion May 15, so as not to overlap Bleak House much. If everyone looks ready to go sooner, we might move it up.

And since we're doing three plays, you could cut in at the second one.

roshanarose · « **Reply #33 on:** April 21, 2012, 11:09:54 PM »

Babi - You have chosen well with Kitto. He is extremely well-respected by classicists the world over. He wrote a slim volume just called "The Greeks". I have recommended this book to many people. If you get time ?? you should read it.

It would be good if from the discussions about translations etc. we reached an agreement re who is the best translator. A bit like herding cats, I know...

Babi · « **Reply #34 on:** April 22, 2012, 08:22:14 AM »

I am forever putting things in a 'logical' place and losing them. Shucks, I can
lose something I'm using without stirring from my chair!

Thanks, TRaude. Possibly I misread a line in that foreword. Once you reminded me of the Oedipus story, I realized that of course the circumstances of his birth and his actions as
a man could not possibly have taken place on the same day!

Glad to hear that, ROSE. Apparently he also wrote a book about Greeks and tragedic
drama, as well as some others. I have no idea if any of his books are available at
my library, but I'll put him on my list.

JudeS · « **Reply #35 on:** April 22, 2012, 11:48:13 AM »

Hi,
I do plan to join you but probably in the middle of May since I am participating in Bleak House right now and in May I will be on vacation at Ashland Oregon for the Shakespeare Festival.
I will be lurking till then and reading your posts.
Thanks for the notice about this discussion.

PatH · « **Reply #36 on:** April 22, 2012, 12:16:02 PM »

When are you going to be in Oregon, Jude? I'm going to be in Portland May 3-9.

JoanK · « **Reply #37 on:** April 22, 2012, 03:37:57 PM »

GREAT, jUDE!

roshanarose · « **Reply #38 on:** April 22, 2012, 09:54:39 PM »

I love the new Illustration. Maybe it is Penelope or even Arachne?

PatH · « **Reply #39 on:** April 23, 2012, 12:57:39 PM »

It's part of a picture of a group of women JoanK found. They aren't named.

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Author Topic: Women in Greek Drama (Read 81500 times)