Women in Greek Drama

[PatH]

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WOMEN IN GREEK DRAMA

Greek Theater at Epidauros

           Ever wonder what Greek women were doing while Socrates and Plato were spouting philosophy? Greece was a male-dominated society, but Greek drama has produced some of the strongest women characters in literature. Here we will read plays by the greatest Greek dramatists, meet some of these women, and see why their stories have lasted thousands of years.

         So don your chitons and your sandals and come to the theater above, as we watch the three greatest playwrights of antiquity strut their stuff!

Antigone--Sophocles
May 15-28
Agamemnon--Aeschylus
May 31-June 15
Iphigenia in Tauris--Euripides
June 16-?

Antigone Online
Agamemnon Online
Iphigenia in Verse
Iphigenia in Prose


Iphigenia

Schedule:
June 16-? First half--until the point where Orestes and Plyades are talking about Orestes' being sacrificed.
   Orestes, knowing he's going to die, says "the Oracle of Phoebus is useless to me now, for look the lady comes."
   Then Iphegenia and the chorus return

Questions:

1. How does Euripides style differ from that of Sophocles and Aeschylus?  What other ways is he different?

2. Why does Ipheginia think that Orestes is dead? What do you think her dream meant?

3. Is there a difference in the attitudes toward the gods and omens in this play as against the earlier ones we've read? If so, what indications do you see of it?

4. How do you think all these Greek slave women got there?

5. Are there traces of a sense of humor here? Was there any humor in the earlier plays? This play is neither a tragedy nor a comedy. Are there other such plays in the Greek repertoire?

6. How is the fact that Iphigenia takes the lead in rescuing them fitted into traditional women's roles? In general, what are some of the ways the playwrights we read manage to present strong women and still maintain stereotypical views of women?

7. It took two goddesses and one human woman (herself) to save Ipheginia, not to mention two heroes and a ship. Could you have done it more economically?

DLs: JoanK and PatH

[PatH]

The new temple is to be to Artemis.  Wikipedia says that Artemis had the power to preserve or take away life during childbirth.  If a woman died during childbirth, her clothing was given to Artemis, as being responsible.  If she survived, she sacrificed some of her clothing to Artemis.  So that must be what's meant.

"Let him let blood" sounds symbolic to me, but I wouldn't bet money on it.

Notice that Athena brings up the point of tied votes.  She made a big thing of this at the end of the Oresteia, when she said that if the vote in Orestes' trial was tied, she would break the tie and vote for acquittal.  In the Athenian legal system, a tied vote led to acquittal.

[JudeS]

Were women allowed to vote at trials?
From what i've read it was always an all male jury.
Perhaps Athena would transform herself into a man?
Stranger things have happened in these plays.

[JoanK]

I think goddesses could do whatever they wanted. Other women -- forget it!

[JoanK]

It's getting close to time to wind up this discussion. Before we go, those who are new to greek drama, what do you think? Does it deserve the place of honor that it holds in our culture? Would you like to see these or another Greek play?

I should say "held in our culture". I don't think the Greek plays are read/performed now as they were a few genersations ago. Is this good, bad, or indifferant?

[PatH]

In The Eumenedes, Athena simply tells the jury if it's a tie, I'm breaking it, and I'll vote for acquittal.  She's speaking as goddess, not woman.

[PatH]

Comparisons of the three playwrights:

When I read Sophocles' Antigone, it moved me to tears, and I was excited about the moral and political issues it raised.

It took me a lot of hard work to make sense of Aeschylus' Agamemnon.  That isn't quite fair to Aeschylus; the other two plays in the Oresteia are much easier, and they have very moving moments in them--especially The Libation Bearers.

Both writers deal with strong, basic emotions and ideals, in a fairly lofty way.  They have political things to say, too, mostly dealing with the way Athens is governed, and it seems to me mostly supporting the status quo.

Euripides is something else.  In his hands the same characters are more down to earth and less idealized.  Their emotions are there, but they don't move you.  His political criticism is underhand sniping at the status quo of both gods and men.  And he makes you chuckle.  As Babi points out, he's more fun.  I wouldn't have gotten as good a hold on him if we hadn't read the other plays, and learned the conventions of the theater.

[Frybabe]

Of the three, I like Iphigenia in Tauris the best. I like the flow of words better; there is a rhythm to it that carried me along. I was a bit bummed to discover that Odysseus had a hand in Iphigenia's sacrifice. It makes me feel, then, that he deserved all the grief he got on his way home from Troy. 

[PatH]

It makes me feel, then, that he deserved all the grief he got on his way home from Troy. 

His crew didn't deserve it, though, even if they did eat Helios' cattle.

[PatH]

It would be interesting to compare the three telling the same story.  This is possible with  Aeschylus' The Libation Bearers, Euripides' Electra, and Sophocles' Electra.  I've now read the first two, and hope to read the third tonight, if it isn't too dense.  Tomorrow I'll report on what I've got.

[Babi]

 Surely the gods are not treating the goddesses like second-rate citizens, JUDE.  Those
gals were powerful and could be really mean and vengeful. Starting with the head gal,
Hera.

  PAT, I agree about the eternal moral and political issues raised in Antigone, But
my reaction to Antigone herself was to wish I was her mother so I could sit her down
and give her a good talking-to.  She was enjoying herself playing a high-drama role
with a teen-agers defiance of the results.
  Aeschylus was 'meatier', but I found the choruses overlong and most of the characters
unappealing.  Euripides was my favorite. I could appreciate his irony, his careful
jabs at the gods, and characters that behaved like real people.   I'll be interested to hear
your comparison of the three 'Electra's.

[JudeS]

I let the dust settle till I chose my favorite.
 Not sure I liked the play or the language which I felt was so beautiful...Agamemnon by Aeschylus.
It might have been the talent of the translator or the description of the battle scenes. 
I let the characters fade and the writing become the forefront of my choice.

My least favorite character was whiny, self rightous Antigone.

As far as  Greek charcters go-well the two I remember are not from this round of reading.
They are the tortured Oedipus and the wonderful heroic Lysistrata.

I learned a lot that I would never know so lets say HURRAH to our fine leaders:JOAN K & PAT !!

[PatH]

Jude, if you didn't care for Antigone, you really wouldn't like Electra as Sophocles paints her.  But you probably would like The Libation Bearers.  I've now read all three--have to go out for a while, but then I'write about them.

[PatH]

Well, now I’ve read all three versions of Electra’s story.

Aeschylus is the most moving and dramatic.  Orestes is horrified at the necessity of killing his mother, and there is a strong scene in which Clytemnestra tries to win her life from him.  She is looking out for herself, calling for an ax before she faces him, but playing the mother love card for all it’s worth.  After much wavering, he kills her (off-stage as always) and is shown with the two bodies in a parody of Clytemnestra’s pose with Agamemnon’s body.  Then he goes mad before our eyes, looking at his bloody sword, getting more and more irrational, finally running off screaming from furies that only he can see.

In the third play he is tried and released from the Furies.

Sophocles is the most disappointing.  Electra was secondary in Aeschylus, but here it’s all about her.  Those who didn’t like the character of Antigone really won’t like Electra here.  She’s bitter and irrational, won’t listen to anyone, seems out of control.  (She even has a younger sister who plays a similar role to Ismene in Antigone.)  She has good reason to be this way.  It’s made clear that Clytemnestra badly mistreated her, and still behaves as badly to her daughter as Electra does to her.

The emotional conflict is in Electra’s emotions when she learns of Orestes’ supposed death (a ruse) and her joy on meeting him alive.  An introduction writer found this very moving, but I didn’t.  The murders are very low-key--Clytemnestra is quickly dispatched, and Aegisthus is led off like a sheep, even though he knows he’s going to be killed.

No mention is made of any punishment for Orestes.

This is a good prose translation if you’re interested; it’s a quick read.

http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Electra.htm

Euripides has his usual down to earth tone.  The characters are more ordinary.  Electra is stuck in an unconsummated marriage to a peasant.  She takes an active part, luring her mother to the hovel she lives in with a ruse, and helping wield a sword at the death.  The emotions are lower key. The arguments before Clytemnestra’s death are acrimonious, not harrowing, with many accusations by Electra, though Clytemnestra’s love for Orestes peeps through.

The deus ex machina: Castor and Polydeuces appear at the end to foretell the pursuit by the furies and the trial, but manage to get in a dig at Apollo in the process.  (The play is full of those little digs we like.)

[PatH]

Surely we've now squeezed everything we can out of these plays.  That was a lot of work, but a lot of fun too.  Thank you, everyone who participated.  You worked hard at it, and your insights and the back and forth conversations here brought up so many more ideas than appear on a first reading.  Now I really feel like I have a handle on Greek plays.

We'll leave the discussion open a day or two before locking it, just in case anyone wants it.

[Babi]

 JUDE, the 'wonderful, heroic Lysistrata' sounds good.  Sounds like she would make a good
contrast to Antigone and Clytemnestra.
  PAT & JOAN, my thanks for a great introduction to Greek tragedy.  You keep stimulating my
brain marvelously!   

[PatH]

Lysistrata is indeed wonderfully heroic, ingenious and clever, and actually succeeds in stopping a war, and the play is very funny--I read it when we were picking plays.  However, it is also one of the raunchiest things I've read in a long time, totally unsuitable for the discussions here.

[Babi]

 Oh, my!     But then, I'll be reading it in private, won't I? 

[PatH]

 

[JoanK]

YES, BABI, that's why I didn't include it. But enjoy.

Interestint the three versions of Electra. Even in this (to us) unfamiliar format, the differences between authors come through.

I've enjoyed this a lot -- it was hard work at times, but its good to flex my brain once in a while. And I learned learned even more than I expected to.

As usual, the best part was the company. You all really are great! I'll leave the site open for another day or so, in case anyone thinks of anything they forgot to say. then, see you in the next discussion!

[JoanK]

Goodbye to the greeks for now. See you in thwe next discussion -- maybe time to visit the Romans again.

[Frybabe]

Although I haven't participated that much, I did enjoy the discussion. Thanks all.

[ginny]

Me, too, and I think our intrepid leaders, JoanK and Pat H have done a fabulous job. And so have the posters:  I enjoyed learning from everybody who commented. I hate it we have had so much going on on the farm that I couldn't keep up despite my best intentions, capped off by  lots of trees down Sunday and being without power for a long time, telephone poles broken off and suspended in mid air by the wires, that made the news, (and it's still there, cut off on both ends),  but all's well that ends. Could have been a lot worse and we didn't lose one baby chick, which is a miracle, and the hay got baled. I am so proud of the group here which did such a great job together.

Well done!