Travels with Herodotus by Ryszard Kapuscinski

[JoanP]

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Travels with Herodotus
Ryszard Kapuscinski

"We struggle against time, against the fragility of memory … If we don’t write down what we learn and experience, that which we carry within will perish when we die." Ryszard Kapuscinski Part autobiography, part literary criticism and part meditation, Travels with Herodotus tells the story of two intertwined journeys: the author's literal voyages across the globe, and his pursuit of Herodotus, the Greek historiographer who reported from foreign lands in the fifth century BC.  And Kapuscinski brings Herodotus to life, showing again just what a superlative writer he is. He lived and worked at the juncture of two epochs: the era of written history was beginning, but the oral tradition still predominated.        Sara Wheeler  The Guardian

                                                                                                                             

Discussion Schedule: Jan. 4-12     Crossing the Border up to Memory Along the Roadways of the World Jan. 13-18     Memory Along the Roadways of the World up to Among Dead Kings Jan. 19-25    Among Dead Kings up to Time Vanishes          Jan. 26         Time Vanishes to end of last chapter, We Stand in Darkness

For Your Consideration
January 19-25
"Among Dead Kings" up to "Time Vanishes"

1. Among Dead Kings : Are you noticing similarities between Herodotus and Kapuscinski's method of reporting?  Does Kapuscinski seem to find common ground between the Shah of Iran and Darius based on his reading of the Histories?

2. Does Herodotus try to explain how  a king like Darius could perform such cruel, heartless acts and then  do something he calls "useful and good?"  Could something as magnificent as Persepolis have come about without the inhuman suffering - caused by Darius himself?   

3. Honors for the Head of Histiaeus: Are you noting the many contradictions in Herodotus' reports?  He describes the king of Sparta as "not in full possession of his faculties," - but goes on to say that he "displays sagacity and common sense."  What do these contradictions say about Herodotus' method of reporting?

4. At Dr. Ranke's : Kapuscinski says, as a foreigner  without translators,  he dreaded the Greek/Persian War more than the Congolese conflicts he was assigned to cover.  What do you think he meant by this?

5. Greek Techiniques: While in Africa, Kapuscinski concentrates not so much on the wars, but on Herodotus' technique, to learn the art of reporting. What is the difference between their techniques?  What does Kapuscinski borrow from him?

6. Do you agree with Kapucinski on technology's impact on how we communicate?  What does this say of our online communication?  Are face-to-face book clubs a better means of communicating ideas?

7.  Do you wonder why Ethiopia was of interest to the Polish Press?  Lacking funds, Kapuscinski was without translators.  How did this affect his methods of gathering information and reporting?

8.  Before Torn Apart by Dogs and Birds: "...a sinister hurricane is brewing in Herodotus' world where events are shifting to where Greece and Persia meet, where Asia and Europe meet,  to the very omphalos of the world." p.189  "omphalos"?   How often must this history repeat itself?

9. Xerxes Does Herodotus believe that  Xerxes lost his kingdom and his chance to rule the world because he lacked humility, or because he was destined to lose it from the onset no matter what?  Does Herodotus believe in predestination?

10. Oath of Athens  Whoever starts a war, in Herodotus' opinion, commits a crime and will be revenged upon and punished.  This is the very essence of fate, the meaning of irreversible destiny.  Do you agree with him?  Does Kapuscinski?  Does history repeat itself nevertheless?

Discussion Leaders: JoanK , JoanP, Barbara  

[JoanP]

Pat. do you think this is Herodotus' dry sense of humor we're seeing here.  Sarcasm, perhaps.  We know he's Greek - the Persians are the enemy.  Even though the Persians see the abduction of these women as criminal...they claim "it is stupid to get worked up about it."  Maybe he agrees with you - and is taking off on the Persians illogical blame the victim argument.  I found myself wishing I had another translation of what Herodotus had to say about the Persians.  I bet the translations vary...

[Jonathan]

Blessings on you, Pat. It's our innocence that has kept the demons from our door. But now that we have learned how to outsmart them, there goes our happiness. On the other hand, Chinese demons may be limited to travelling only straight lines, the demons I can imagine with my Western mind much prefer the devious route.

I have no doubt that Kapuscinski took a very professional interest in Herodotus's TRAVELS. Reporting and editing the news was K's job, investigative journalism was a step beyond that.

'...and so I burned the midnight oil studying up on guerrilla warfare in the jungles of Burma and Malaysia....' Nothing about gorillas. May his innocence protect him.

I can appreciate K's desire to preserve the past just like Herodotus, but primarily one reads history to learn the ways of the world, and the heart of man. But  I wonder if he was also providing his readers with alternative examples of political and governmental styles. He was, after all, writing in the middle of the Cold War for  Communist readers.

I would have thought a minaret the safest place in the world. He's robbed, but doesn't report it to the police. Interesting. My chums and I often crossed the border into the U.S.A for an evening of fun when we were young. It was a rule never to report a victimization of any kind to the local police. Never got any justice as foreigners. Don't misunderstand. I hold no grudges. Policemen are always overworked. Happy times. To be young and carefree. And innocent of anything.

It's all Homer's fault, when he discovered that the abduction of Helen made a fantastic theme. Subsequent writers soon picked up on that.

[PatH]

I got a good sample of how translations vary yesterday when I went to get a copy of Herodotus out of the library, and spent some time comparing passages in the three available to see which was most readable.  Unfortunately, I hadn't yet read any of this section of Kapus.  The one I picked, translated by Andrea l. Purvis, seems both readable and careful, and in her preface she remarks "The tone and style of Herodotus is alternately high and low, objective and subjective, analytic and whimsical, complicated and straightforward."

Her translation of the bit about abduction starts:  "Now the Persians think--etc", and later, concerning Helen, "The Persians claim that while they themselves, Asiatics, thought nothing of the women being abducted, ...".  He's still in the process of trying to figure out who started everything, but he's taking sides.

[Jonathan]

These Greek wars, I seem to remember, were always struggles to maintain their freedom from subjection.

[BarbStAubrey]

Was it in Herodotus Histories (which I haven't finished) or was it in The Travels... anyhow, the reason for the start of the war was first blamed on the kidnapping of a group of women shopping on the dock and then he says the princess abducted was sleeping with the ship's captain but then he goes on to a bunch of skirmishes between kings before the all out war -  after all the serious and frightening war situations Kapus had experienced and wrote about before this book I just thought, like JoanP sees sarcasm, that he was tongue and cheek with dry humor over the idea of major war because of 'a' or 'several' women did not match anything he saw in real life. I thought he was ballyhooing Herodotus's idea that women were to blame -

Pat my house does not have stairs but oh oh oh - like throwing spilled salt over your shoulder I think it is funny to see how many Anglos take seriously what many of the children or grandchildren of Chinese immigrants laugh at. And the cost of having your house analyzed using Feng Shui is astonishing. Ah so... while doing a job you learn all sorts of differences and taking them seriously builds trust - now that to me is the key to calming down the war drums - Kapus talked of 'listening' - not easy to listen when we only see walls is it.

Pat, seems to me I read that it was the Andrea l. Purvis translation that Kapus used.

JoanP yes, "I'm wondering too if we are as interested in learning the reasons for the unrest and differences in our time?  We want to resolve them, yes, but are we interested in discerning the causes?" I am seeing even in this nation a void in how folks really do not understand why areas of the country think and act so differently.

Yes, Jonathan I agree, that sounds more like it - examples of political and governmental styles - that does sound like the eye opener for Kapus who lived behind walls topped with razer wire - still trying to figure out where he was going town to town - he talked of the border area which sounded like the border between Poland and free Germany being less populated however, when you look on the map Chodów is closer to the border of what is Belarus that would have been included in the USSR.  I'm as curious about Poland as he seems to be about India, China and now Mediterranean Africa. Funny I never think of Egypt as being in Africa.

After the minaret experience nothing is sacred - with all his paranoia over watching eyes he should have headed to a minaret to stash his empty bottle. Less eyes if you can get a stranger out on the ledge with no eyes running for help. That whole experience waiting for the other reporters I thought screamed 'I grew up in Communist Poland' as much as, his clothes gave him away in Rome.  

[BarbStAubrey]

A 'by the way' one of my past clients just emailed this to me - interesting web site but the article emailed shows what Indonesia is about today. http://www.theworld.org/2013/01/iwan-fals/

[Babi]

  I lost Senior Learn completely yesterday, just as I was trying to post here. So today you're getting it all.  

  K. sees an order in Herodotus reporting.  He finds a 'first principle', which he sees as putting in order all  the information he's uncovered, and establish where, when, with whom did this story begin?  Logical approach.
  The second law he sees in Herodotus statement "human happiness never remains long in the same place".   That, to me, takes some explanation.  K explains it using  the story of Croesus and Solon, the great Greek renowned for his wisdom and his part in the founding of the democratic city-state government of Athens. I'm sure you all knew this story. But the point seems to be, "It is necessary to see the end of anything....and to see how it will turn out, because the god will offer prosperity to men, but then destroys them utterly and completely".   It occurs to me, that it is  hard to definitely state a final outcome to anything.  You may say who won a battle,  but  that is  seldom the 'end'.    There is always an aftermath,   and future generations  may bring about a complete reversal of even this.
  Herodotus third law, or principle,  is declared to be  "Not even a god can escape his ordained fate." How strange.  Croesus punishment is declared to be in payment for the crime of an ancestor four generations past.  And this vague 'fate' is more powerful than the gods?  What sort of being do these ancients perceive 'fate' to be?

  I wonder, now, if, and how, these principles might influence K's reporting?


 
                    

[Frybabe]

Croesus punishment is declared to be in payment for the crime of an ancestor four generations past.

I immediately thought of Edgar Cayce who believed that we atoned for the sins in our past lives; he believed in reincarnation. I never studied ancestor worship, except where snippets were included in other historical writings, so I only have a very broad impression of it. I wonder if the notion that we atone for our ancestor's sins comes out of or is a driving influence in ancestor worship. Does the surviving family continue to pay for an ancestor's sins on down the ages, or is there a point where the sins have been avenged (not quite the word I want) and further retribution is no longer a factor.

[JoanP]

A busy busy day here - had meant to read the references to Book I and the abduction of women by the Phoenicians...to see how Herodotus handled that topic.  Did he agree that it was not worth starting a war over?  Still mean to do that..

Just time this morning for some quick observations..
That's an interesting thought, Babi...how might Herodotus' principles have influenced Kapus reporting?  We've already seen signs of it...the way K presents certain information, leaving out his reaction to what he is reporting.  The same trait in Herodotus seems to drive him crazy - but isn't K doing the same thing?  Isn't this the sign of a good reporter - presenting the facts, without allowing personal bias or opinion interfere with them?

Kapus is studying Herodotus' methods very closely - his conclusions, his principles seem to come from unbiased observation of the facts.  
You mention Croesus - who gets much of Herodotus' attention.  DId you notice the reference in this past week's episode of Downton Abbey?  Mary refers to another character as "rich as Croesus."  Were other historians reporting on his wealth - or is he known from Herodotus' work?

Did you think it strange that Herodotus, a Greek, spent much time speaking with the Persians while Darius was king?  Was this a dangerous undertaking?

[rich7]

".....Croesus, whose story resembles that of the biblical Job, for whom Croesus was perhaps the prototype."  This is just Kapus' opinion, but I wonder what other real-life ancient people got their stories "spiritualized" and adapted into sacred texts.

Kapus is an enigma to me.  He is afraid to throw a beer bottle into a trash receptacle, but he blindly goes off on a jaunt with a shady character who ultimately demands his wallet (with the implication that if the wallet is not produced, off the top of minaret he goes), and, later, into the desert with two strangers promising him hashish.

Whenever I read "travel" writing, I enjoy it most if I can identify with the author.  Kapus is making that hard for me.

Rich

[rich7]

On the other hand, if he just stayed in his hotel room and ordered up room service, it wouldn't be a very interesting book, would it?

Rich

[BarbStAubrey]

Wow Babi you just raised the bar - now I need to go back and re-read those two chapters after you found those nuggets.

Frybabe ancestor worship never thought of the connection but you are onto something - like you I have heard of ancestor worship but have not looked at it more than a passing bit of trivia.

All this book does it seems is be a storyline to keep close at hand many other books and to learn about things that seldom grab our attention until we allow ourselves to ask why and when was that or who did what.

JoanP isn't there a story told to children about Croesus turning everything he touches into gold and he cannot hug his daughter because she would be turned into a statue of gold. Seems to me while reading something by Micheal Woods found by archaeologists was the ruins of the house that was attributed as being the home of Croesus. It was a popular saying that we do not hear as often today - Rich as Croesus

Rich he sure seems reckless doesn't he - my thought was a travel book is usually how someone overcame some difficulty and therefore had embarked on an adventure - thus a problem, climax, solution ending. I am thinking these impulsive risks are his problems that make the book an adventure story - I guess no different than someone who risks life and limb to climb tall mountains, or hunt wild animals, or like Richard Louis "Dick" Proenneke.

Dick is the one who made a film of his adventure. When he retired in 1968 he builds a log cabin at Twin Lakes, Alaska and lived alone hunting, fishing and gathering berries for the next 30 years. Most of his problems were not tackling wild animals or getting himself lost in a blizzard but simply the adventure of  making all sorts of cooking and storage out of tin cans from goods delivered to him by a bush pilot a couple of times a year or finishing his fireplace before winter freezes everything.  

I guess we could look closer at our own simple lives and find the adventures but yes, going off with strangers seems to be asking for trouble. He does say he does not know why he does this and questions himself but quickly goes forward - Like you say it would not be a story if he acted cautiously.   Maybe he is writing a warning of what not to do.

When I have traveled I am seldom travel alone to a place where I do not know the language. - One time hiking in Mexico with 7 others - we had a burro to carry our backpacks and a local guide - hiking up a mesa with 6 ft tall grass kept us on a path when all of a sudden this guy looking like a typical movie version of a bandito with a handle bar mustache rides up out of no where. On his hips are two pistols and two shot guns on the saddle telling us to stop and stay put - we stop - there was no way we could hide or run -

In minutes, back he comes with of all things a two year old child behind the pommel in front of him on the saddle. He wants us to take his picture with his grandchild - talk about relief -

The one guy in our group goes to this area 4 or 5 times a year and take pictures that the next trip he delivers - word in this remote area travels - while on this trip he gave a young man the photo of his Dad taken during the last trip and the young man bursts into tears - seems the Dad died only two weeks before and this was the only photo they will have of the Dad.  

[Frybabe]

I don't think K tells us the whole story of his adventures, just enough to make us think he is a bit naive and not well informed. I suspect he was neither. He is somewhat self-effacing.

[BarbStAubrey]

Frybabe I like that thought - because you are so right - how could he be... but then wait, is he telling us how it was for him back when he first started - sharing more of his memories do you think rather than, writing as an experienced reporter?  What do you think?  All of his books appear to be written many years after the fact.  Has anyone read any of his other books - did he include telling stories about his ineptness in other books?

I am wondering if we share our stories trying to re-capture how we felt at the time? Or maybe there was not yet all the warnings of what to look out for when you go away from home - he wrote this in 2008 about things that he experienced in 1960 - a year or so to write the book so that would be about 45 yeas later - hmm -

Maybe he is having fun with the whole thing and showing how if you go out as a rookie reporter with Herodotus as either a companion or a guide there is a lot of goofy things that happen. Because JoanP brought up this, Did you think it strange that Herodotus, a Greek, spent much time speaking with the Persians while Darius was king

What do the rest of you think - is Kapus not well informed for real or is he omitting parts of his adventure to make a good story or is he as Frybabe thinks self-effacing?

[Frybabe]

I've got his Shah of Shahs and the one about Hallie Selassie on my wish list.

[Babi]

  You're right, JOANP. A reporter is supposed to present the facts. Commentary,
conclusions, opinions, etc., are the domain of 'commentators' or experts in the
field...whatever it might be. That's generally what we see in TV news today, tho'
some news programs do seem to present the news in a way that furthers their own
political views.
  I would think that generally a ruler would be pleased with a writer who wished
to document his exploits and views. Of course, they would be equally displeased if
the writings attacked them in any way. A reporter in foreign territory definitely
needs to be prudent and discreet. Consider 'K' in China!

 I don't know about 'spiritualizing' old stories, RICH, but certainly any well-
known story or person could be used as an example that the hearers would readily
recognize. 
  I loved the story about the young man who takes pictures for people in remote
areas, BARB. That is such a thoughtful thing to do. He was able to provide something
of great comfort to one family, and probably to many others.

[JoanP]

Would I like to meet Kapuscinski or Herodotus?  If it were possible, I think I'd like to meet the two at the same time...sit around that fire and just  listen to their conversation.  But what language would they be speaking?

Forced to choose?  I think it would have to be Herodotus.  In the back of my mind, when I read of his goals and methods, I can't  stop wondering why anyone would accuse him of being a liar.  How did he get the reputation of "Father of Liars"?

Kapus admits he was overwhelmed by the language and cultural barriers in India and China...but writes that "Africa, though more fragmentary, was approachable" - despite the obvious language barriers.  Why is this?
It seems that Kapus is really learning Herodotus' techniques while in Egypt, putting them to good use when he himself goes to  Africa - I find I'm getting the two of them confused. Both  rely on personal contact - facial expression, body language - just as important as verbal exchange...

Isn't it amazing the way Kapuscinski picks up language - wherever he is? Does Herodotus have the same ability? Language never seems to be a problem for him - even when in Africa...

[Frybabe]

I am in Egypt now with K and H. And there they are, the ancients debating whether Egypt was the oldest civilization or not. I never considered the the story of Heracles might have originated with the Greeks but adopted from Egyptian lore. I guess, even back then with travel being so hard and taking so long, most peoples did not live in a complete vacuum.

[BarbStAubrey]

JoanP I wondered too why Africa was more approachable - he says something about it being closer to Europe - with many of the African nations controlled by European nations he may be right - but then I wonder how he judged that impression being shut inside a nation controlled by a super-power and isolated from education as a young boy.

Trying to imagine what that was like growing up during the 30s, 40s and 50s in Poland. He does not refer to the war years - we are eking out bits and pieces of his life as he tells his tales and he started the book telling us about attending University and how unprepared they were but nothing about his childhood. His photos show him to have that round impish face typical among some Poles - I can see from his photos how easy it would be to take a liking to the man and wave him along if you were a foreign journalist.

History is difficult to write about just as I think a reporter commenting is difficult to read because we only can see through their eyes and their understanding of right and wrong, what is important down to how they observe what is happening. I thought Kapus learned much in India when he realized his values of being independent and not adding to what he saw as taking advantage of the labor of others would not allow a family to eat - maybe that is it - he goes to the other extreme in Egypt turning to anyone who offers help or an adventure.

I think too I would like to meet Herodotus and ask him what his impressions were of those Greeks he met whose work we still read today and I would like to know more of how he and his small group traveled - horse, donkey or camel and what they took with them and how they replenished their food supplies -

[BarbStAubrey]

Frybabe recently saw a time chart and too I never put it together just how old Egyptian culture is and the influences Egypt had on so many later cultures. I only read recently that the earliest Jewish religious practices  were borrowed bits and pieces from Egyptian religion

JoanK didn't you live for awhile in this part of the world - did you get into Egypt - had you heard of this reporter because some of the events must have still have been talked about when you lived in Israel.

[rich7]

"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it."   I think that's roughly the famous quote by George Santayana.

Kapus  gives us reenforcement of its truth with two stories in his readings from Herodotus.  Darius' sending of Zopyrus (of the disfigured face) into Babylon to win the confidence of the Babylonians through deceit and open the gates of the city to Darius' army,  is an instant replay (if several centuries apart can be an instant replay) of the Trojan horse deceit.  

The Scythians' strategic retreat over the steppes of what I imagine to be Ukraine and Russia, wearing Darius down with the vast lands he had to traverse, while trying to get the Scythians to stand still and fight, portends Napoleons failed campaign in the same region, and in more modern times, the Nazis failed incursion.  At least Darius had the good sense to cut his losses and go home with his army intact. Napoleon and Hitler were not so wise.

Rich

[BarbStAubrey]

Rich you have referred to WWII in at least one earlier post and with that in mind it just hit me I guess that was what the Japanese did starting WWII. Their Peace envoy was here I think while they were bombing Pearl Harbor or just the week before the bombing attack.

Glad you knew where Herodotus was talking about - I kept going for a map to figure it out and would easily get waylaid reading about another tidbit - and so it was the land where both Neapolitan and Hitler lost their troops.

I wonder why of the stories Herodotus includes in The Histories Kapus decided to tell these particular stories - do you make any connection between the stories he includes and his travels? I am thinking an author just willy nilly does not include every bit and spangle in a book so what is the importance of these stories do you think?

[rich7]

Barb, I'm sort of guessing at the location of the Scythians.  Kapus(Herodotus) tells us that the Scythian homeland was north of the Black sea, and between the Danube and the Volga.  That kind of puts them in the Ukraine/Russia vicinity on modern political maps.

Rich

[Jonathan]

Very interesting, Rich, that you should remind us of that famous quote from George Santayana. It's so familiar, but what was the context and time in which he used it. Does anyone know? Was he, for example, reminding Europeans that much of their calamitous history might have  been avoided if they had calculated their political and military moves with more hindsight?

Some guys are just too selective with their reading. Obviously Napolean and Hitler didn't read Herodotus on Darius. You can depend on it, however, that they knew all about Alexander the Great and Cortes the Conquistador, and their amazing feats.

As for that perfidious Japanese envoy and the infamous attack on the unsuspecting American fleet...that must be the most awesome historical lesson of all.

Not long ago I was reading Edmund Morris's COLONEL ROOSEVELT. What an amazing man. In 1912, on his way to Republican Convention in Chicago, hoping to get the nomination for another run at the presidency, Roosevelt was reading his copy of Herodotus. For the twenty-two hours he spent on the Limited as it puffed its way west. (page 195) He must have found the Scythian cavalry tactics awesome.

[BarbStAubrey]

Who would have guessed that about Roosevelt Jonathan... Many of the presidents were well read and then a few - well what can we say.

Here is a link to Purdue where the web site for the Society for George Santayana is managed - not sure but I also think it is where the Society's Board meets.
http://iat.iupui.edu/santayana/content/santayana-quotations

And the quote from the book Life of Reason book I can be read on Gutenberg but also, this sight which I prefer the layout - I have this set to the section of the last chapter that contains the quote - if it does not come up for you it is on p 284 the last chapter.
http://archive.org/stream/lifeofreasonorph11sant#page/284/mode/2up

Wow Rich, to be able to quote Santayana - Talk about a book you can take months to read is anything written by Santayana - The depth of this man - whow!

Golly we get into more back up material reading this book than I can ever remember reading a book with Senior Learn - oh maybe the Tempest but those backup books all seem to be of one theme where this book we are all over the map - from The Histories to current history, Religion, Wars, to people, places and now philosophy - so far, no curiosity to satisfy about flora and fauna.

[Babi]

  JOANP, maybe it's simply because so much of Africa was dominated by Europeans
that many languages might be found there. That would be particularly true of
Africans living in the cities. Facial expression and body language can be so
revealing, but it can be a snare in foreign countries. There customs might be
such that what would seem to be shyness, or coldness, in one country is simple
courtesy in another.

 I have always understood that the Japanese military felt a great disgrace over
the timing of the Pearl Harbor attack. The envoys here were supposed to give
Roosevelt a declaration of war, but the notice was delayed because those responsible
were not able to get it typed in time on the old manual typewriters..in English, yet.  Would any of you know for certain whether this is true or not?
 

[rich7]

Karusu, the chief  Japanese envoy to the US claimed that he was not aware of the impending attack at Pearl Harbor.

From Wikipaedia....After the war, Kurusu was a visiting professor at Tokyo University and lived at a country estate in Karuizawa with his wife Alice. Kurusu maintained for the rest of his life that he had been unaware of the plans for Pearl Harbor. "It must seem absurd to you," he told Frank Robertson of INS, "but it's true. The militarists kept their secret extremely well."[14] He died at the age of 68.

Rich

[JoanP]

"I wonder why of the stories Herodotus includes in The Histories Kapus decided to tell these particular stories - do you make any connection between the stories he includes and his travels?"  Barbara

I've been wondering the same thing, Barb.  I can think of two reasons -
The first - Kapus seems to turn to Herodotus when he has a difficult assignment - turns to him for guidance.  The Histories are becoming almost like a Bibile to Kapus - he finds wisdom and comfort reading that Herodotus faces the same bewilderment and feelings of loss - no matter which page, which stories he happens to open.  Lately though, I'm finding stronger parallels between the people each man features.  In the next section which we'll begin tomorrow, Kapuschinski continues his references to the Persian king Darius and the Shah of Iran.
(Do you think we need more time - another day, for this section before beginning the chapter, "Among Dead Kings?")

There is another reason Kapus decides to tell these particular stories - remember the three laws of  History, which Herodotus outlined in the early chapter of his book?  These "laws" or "principles" seem to be the result of his life's work - of all the interviews he conducted.  The second half of the book seems to demonstrate Herodotus' principles...

- Who first undertook the acts of aggression?  His answer seems to be the law of revenge which he concludes was a sacred obligation.

- Human happiness is elusive - doesn't remain in the same place. The law of moderation - never want too much.  Lust for conquest dims judgement.
Kapuschinski is reminded of Napoleon's campaign for Moscow when reading Herodotus on Cyrus...and Darius too.  

- Not even a god can escape his own fate, his destiny.  I'm not sure if Kapuschinski holds this same belief in predestination.  Herodotus seems to.

 

[JoanP]

"Maybe it's simply because so much of Africa was dominated by Europeans that many languages might be found there." Babi

There is the proximity to Europe, Babi.  But Herodotus also seems to be struck by the many language differences when he visited Africa too...before there was a Europe.  Herodotus describes his method when he visited Egypt -as he wandered, talked, listened to all the details.  His goal - to amass new information, check the reliability of the data he had gathered, compare, and then formulate his own conclusions.

I got a kick out of the attempt to prove who were the first to inhabit the land by the earliest who spoke the language...remember the story of the two infants raised in the uninhabited mountains...The first child to speak the word for "bread'  must be from the first  people in Egypt.  Language differences were an issue, a point of honor- especially the oldest.  There was more to the story - which I'm forgetting just now.  The point is - Kapuscinski seems to be choosing stories from Herodotus' Histories to compliment his own experiences as he travels.

[Frybabe]

This site just popped up on my radar: http://ancientweb.org/index.php/explore/country/Persia

I posted the Persian link, but do check out all the other ancient history pages.

[JoanP]

An amazing site, Fry!  Thank you so much for bringing it to our attention.  I was taken with the extent of the Persian Empire at this time - 500BC.  Herodotus would be about 15 yrs. old at this time, right?  Of course he has no idea of its size...but he hears more and more about it - word of mouth.

I came in this morning to make a change in the discussion schedule a wee bit...to give us another day to catch up.  We were scheduled to move on to the Chapters beginning with Dead Kings and Forgotten Gods (wish we had chapter numbers, don't you?  Would make it easier to reference.) Let's spend another day reading (or rereading) the last two chapters - "The Face of Zopyrus" and "The Hare" (pages 126 - 144 in the hardcover edition) - because they are so important - in the history of the world, our world.  I'll go now and put this change in the schedule in the heading at the top of this page.

Doesn't it make you stop and think of how different our world would be today if Cyrus or Darius had been successful and the Persians had been successful in conquering the Western World? - They came so close at this time!  

Who knows, maybe they would have been "benevolent conquerers" as they were in Babylon...
 

[Olle]

At last! My computer is repaired and I'm able to use it again.
Good for me, hopefully for some of you!
I have felt astonished, reading about your interest in JK:s involvement in the communist party. As a born Polish, in his mind the world outside must have been the same as Poland. Naturally he believed in the society where he was raised. It takes time for anybody to disclose his own country, and see that is has defects. The interesting, from my point of view, is his intention to use Herodotus as a travel companion and guide into the unknown, historic world. A world that is unknown for most people, except for a few researchers.
It is true that the Greeks always were fighting the people east of their borders. There is still an animosity against the Turks. That, and other conflicts, is the reason for me to seeking the truth and the source for this fights between east and west.
But after reading about Persepolis, I wish I could have stood there in the dawn with JK, and see and feel the beauty of something so impressive and still so immensely beautiful.
Did you know that he was mentioned in the discussions for the Nobel Prize in literature!
Olle

[Babi]

 It appears I am falling well behind in my reading. I need to do some catch-up.

 I was puzzled by that story of the Egyptian king who arranged for two infant
children to be reared in isolation by a shepherd. He ruled that whatever language
these isolated children spoke must be that of the world's oldest people, a subject
in which he was greatly interested. Their first word turns out to be 'bread' in
the Phyrigian language, so he declares the Phrygians to be the 'first' people.
Surely one would assume the children would learn the language of the shepherd who
tended them. Did I miss something here?  Was the shepherd ordered never to speak
to them???

 JOAN, it was K who found Africa 'more accessible'. And of course, by then many
Africans spoke English, or French, or whatever European language dominated the area.
Herodotus would, of course, have had to rely heavily on observation and whatever
he could find in the way of an interpreter.

  One important point K makes about Herodotus is that he was never shocked at
differences, never condemned them. "..rather, he tries to learn about it, to
understand and describe it".That sounds to me like the ideal approach for any
traveler. I am totally at a loss to understand an attitude like that of a friend
of my daughter's, who took a tour of Italy and complained constantly that the food
wasn't like they made it at home!

[rich7]

Eastern rulers haven't changed much since Darius.

Quoting from Kapus: Reading what Herodotus writes on eastern rulers we can see that all of them perform cruel deeds... (End of quote)
Herodotus then goes on to tell the story of the father who asked if one of his three sons could please be left behind in the land of the Scythians.  Darius obliged by leaving all three of his sons behind ...with their throats cut.

In recent times, Saddam Hussein had one of his officers arrested on suspicion of treason.  The officer's wife went to Hussein, whom she knew, and asked that her husband please be returned to her.  He complied by returning her husband.....in twelve boxes.

Eastern leaders can still perform cruel deeds.

Rich

[JoanP]

Olle!  Wonderful to hear that your computer is fixed and that you are able to join us at last!  Welcome!

Olle is coming to us from Sweden, and so naturally he will have a slightly different perspective - which is always welcome here!

"It is true that the Greeks always were fighting the people east of their borders. There is still an animosity against the Turks."  That isn't surprising, is it?  You remind us of Kapuscinki and Herodotus' purpose - they are both seeking the reason for the animosity between the east and the west.  Even more than that, perhaps.  They both seem to be looking at the reasons for war in general.  No wonder Kapuscinski was considered for a Nobel prize!

More on Darius, his cruelty and Persepolis tomorrow, Rich.  Glad you picked up on the contradiction that cruel leaders can  produce beauty - but at what cost?
Babi...notice that we have tacked another day on this week's discussion schedule- just for you!  And those who need some catch-up time...

You ask an interesting question about those poor children - and the shepherd who tended them.  Were the children brought up in total silence?  How did the shepherd know what they wanted to eat?  Perhaps the child was pointing at whatever the shepherd was eating and called it bread - in Phyrigian?  Who told this story to Herodotus?

[JoanP]

Babi...I was struck by the tribes were were displaced at the time Kapus was assigned to the Congo.  They don't know where they are ...they don't know where they are going.  They can only speak their tribal language and so when asked where they are from or where they are going, they cannot communicate with anyone at all.  To tell the truth, I can't remember which chapter I read about that.  Maybe you need to catch up. Don't want to be a spoiler.  We can talk about that tomorrow.  But, I do see a terrible, disorientating language barrier in Africa in the sixties...

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh my so much happening today - yes WELCOME Ollie - so glad your computer is allowing you to join us - what a wonderful spot on view - It takes time for anybody to disclose his own country, and see that is has defects. I think that can be said of all organized groups as well as, families and individuals.

Frybabe that is a wonderful site you found and shared - finally there is a clearer picture of those two chapters filled with the story that for me was a struggle like learning something new with no reference point. And so reading the facts in the web site allowed me to put it all together - looks like there are several parts of the ancient world discussed in the site so that is one I will be using for a while -

Babi with decisions like the two children and language made by the Egyptian King always made me look at the ancients like children playing 'king of the hill' and yet, without what today we consider common sense they left behind more than amazing sculptures and relief but their warfare and political maneuvering is still part of our life today.

It is interesting to see a Shakespeare play done in today's clothing - a different perspective that does not show itself when the plays are done in period costume - I think seeing some of these stories played out in contemporary dress may do the same where we could probably see how we are only repeating the past as Rich you reminded us with the Santayana quote.

Thinking on it Rich, it is more than just Eastern Rulers who have not changed - we may not cut up the dead and deliver them in boxes but we do bind the cruelty behind government forces that say they are for our protection using long range weapons - I wonder often if just knowing the past would make a more civilized way of life - greed, a desire for additional power and to prove their power seem to be the lesson of these stories from Herodotus and other historians.

Joan thanks for including the map - it sure helps - I wish I could blow it up - maybe there is one on another site.

[BarbStAubrey]

oh good following Frybabe's effort to look up more about the Persians I thought a closer look at the Scythians would help - and what do you know a map that shows their land in relationship to 'Parthia' Medina and Assyria.

http://www.emersonkent.com/images/scythians_map.jpg

[BarbStAubrey]

OH my - here is a bit from Herodotus' fourth book about the Scythians

When a Scythian has slain his first man, he drinks some of his blood: and of all those whom he slays in the battle he bears the heads to the king; for if he has brought a head he shares in the spoil which they have taken, but otherwise not. And he takes off the skin of the head by cutting it round about the ears and then taking hold of the scalp and shaking it off; afterwards he scrapes off the flesh with the rib of an ox, and works the skin about with his hands; and when he has thus tempered it, he keeps it as a napkin to wipe the hands upon, and hangs it from the bridle of the horse on which he himself rides, and takes pride in it; for whosoever has the greatest number of skins to wipe the hands upon, he is judged to be the bravest man. Many also make cloaks to wear of the skins stripped off, sewing them together like shepherds' cloaks of skins; [66] and many take the skin together with the finger-nails off the right hands of their enemies when they are dead, and make them into covers for their quivers: now human skin it seems is both thick and glossy in appearance, more brilliantly white than any other skin. Many also take the skins off the whole bodies of men and stretch them on pieces of wood and carry them about on their horses.

Lots more - here is a translation of the book - at seems Kapus is telling his story from his understanding of the Persians point of view and summarizing much of what Herodotus says about the Scythians.
http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_text_herodotus_4.htm

Kapuscinski interjects his thought about how we interpret reality - is this his way do you think of telling us he understands his own forays into dead ends and misleading signs because of growing up in Poland? I am thinking this sounds like when we first went into Iraq and had no clue the intensity among the people as to if you were Shia or Sunni and most of us barely knew the difference. How many other pots do you think are stirred without knowing the ingredients and how they are best prepared.