Moonstone, The by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online

[Scottieluvr]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

Please post below if you can join us on APRIL 15!

The Moonstone
by Wilkie Collins

T.S. Eliot called The Moonstone "the first and greatest English detective novel." Told from the standpoint of several, very different, very British characters, it is the funny, irreverent, dramatic, romantic, very British story of the theft of an Indian jewel taken from the eye of an idol and then stolen again from a very British country house by mysterious Indians. Come and join us: I'll bet you can't guess "whodunit" and what they did!    Discussion Schedule: April 15 --  OPENING DAY Related Links:: Gutenberg electronic text DISCUSSION LEADERS: JoanK &  PatH Oh, good, a fellow twin.  JoanK is an hour and 45 minutes older than I, and we made a big deal of it in a joking way, but it never really mattered.  Joan is the more formidable intellectual presence, and I am the more practical one. Being older was very important to my sister.     In personality my sister and I are like day and night. In our youth she was all about having fun, I was all about being responsible. As we reached our half century mark (2012), she's all about responsibility and now I'm having fun.

[JoanK]

Of course it's important! I learned a lot in that hour and 45 minutes. Pat is still trying to catch up!   

We are a lot alike in some ways, and opposites in others. Do you find that when one of you goes to one extreme, the other tends to go to the opposite?

I suspect we'd be very disappointed in Home sweet Homicide if we read it now. Some books age well, others not.

[Scottieluvr]

Of course it's important! I learned a lot in that hour and 45 minutes. Pat is still trying to catch up!   

*ROFLOL* Of course... Pat will always be "trying to catch up", like me with my sister. 

We are a lot alike in some ways, and opposites in others. Do you find that when one of you goes to one extreme, the other tends to go to the opposite?

Yes regarding extremes, like I mentioned about fun and responsibility.    We different, extreme opposites, regarding politics, social reform, child rearing, work ethics... the list is long. What about you and Pat?

[JoanP]

Pamela - maybe you can bring your twin to join us - wouldn't that be a trip!



The reason I copied the book cover - Look at Wilkie's description of his novel that he's selected for the cover of his book. - He's not calling it "The Moonstone,  a Mystery" - he's calling it "A Romance."....  Do you suppose that's how he sees this novel? Do you think  he would be surprised at our discussion of "the first mystery detective novel?"

So, we,re getting a two-fer - a mystery AND a romance!  Like Dickens' Edwin Drood!

[JoanK]

"So, we,re getting a two-fer - a mystery AND a romance!  Like Dickens' Edwin Drood!"

And the tradition continues. Many modern mystery story writers start out as romance writers, then move over into mysteries, but always provide a romance (Janet Evanovitch is a popular example).

Actually, (and this may be more than you want to know) there are subgenres in mysteries, and the ones called "cozies" (think Agatha Christie) usually have a romance in them. Collins is perhaps the first "cozy". They aren't as dark as other mysteries, and are "cozy" in that you get to know and like the characters, feel you could settle down with a cozy cup of tea with them after the murderer has been hauled away. They are often funny and light, as opposed to the "psychologicals" (think "Girl with the Dragon Tatoo") which are full of pain and angst.

There are other genres, too: procedurals, tough guys (or gals) etc. and other ways of classifying them, but enough of that.

[Scottieluvr]

The reason I copied the book cover - Look at Wilkie's description of his novel that he's selected for the cover of his book. - He's not calling it "The Moonstone,  a Mystery" - he's calling it "A Romance."....  Do you suppose that's how he sees this novel? Do you think he would be surprised at our discussion of "the first mystery detective novel?"

So, we,re getting a two-fer - a mystery AND a romance!  Like Dickens' Edwin Drood!

Yes, I think he would be surprised at his work labeled “as the first mystery novel”. I’ve read where many authors wrote in one genre but their works were classified in another. And of course examples escape me – DARN! Still I adore romance with my mysteries…

And the tradition continues. Many modern mystery story writers start out as romance writers, then move over into mysteries, but always provide a romance (Janet Evanovitch is a popular example).

Actually, (and this may be more than you want to know) there are subgenres in mysteries, and the ones called "cozies" (think Agatha Christie) usually have a romance in them. Collins is perhaps the first "cozy". They aren't as dark as other mysteries, and are "cozy" in that you get to know and like the characters, feel you could settle down with a cozy cup of tea with them after the murderer has been hauled away. They are often funny and light, as opposed to the "psychologicals" (think "Girl with the Dragon Tatoo") which are full of pain and angst.

There are other genres, too: procedurals, tough guys (or gals) etc. and other ways of classifying them, but enough of that.

I love Janet Evanovich’s “Stephanie Plum” novels. I never tire of them. Although I’ve read some abhor them…well, books are like garage sales, “One [wo]man’s junk is another [wo]man’s treasure.”   

I gravitate more towards the cozies over legal procedurals or psychological thrillers. But!  I do get a craving for something meatier, deeper, and tangible; every now and again procedurals and psycho books grace my shelves.

I am just discovering the 1950’s mysteries; stylized like Mickey Spilane’s Mike Hammer or Sam Spade by Dashiell Hammett.

[Scottieluvr]

Curious, will we be using a book guide with our BOTM read?

[PatH]

Curious, will we be using a book guide with our BOTM read?

No, it's all do it yourself here.  The way it usually goes is: the discussion leaders (here JoanK and I are it) set the schedule, dividing the book up into chunks, and think up some questions for each chunk to get things going.  We discuss one chunk at a time.  Sometimes the questions shape the discussion, sometimes it looks like nobody even reads them, and everywhere in between.  Of course anyone can look up book guides and get ideas from them.  The system seems to work well.  We all come up with ideas, and it's amazing how much you can get out of a book when you chew it over for a month or so.  Sometimes we get off on weird side tracks; when we read the Odyssey, Barb and I had a lengthy shipbuilding discussion about different kinds of keels, and what kind of pitch the Greeks sealed their ships with.

Something else to notice: did you notice that your post at the top of this page now includes a heading with picture, schedule, etc?  There is a new page every 40 posts, and we try to get in to make the 40th post so we can put in a heading.  If we miss, we insert the heading into the 40th post, but the post itself is intact after the heading.  This is the ONLY way anyone will ever mess with your posts.  If I ever tried to do anything else to your posts I would get fired instantly.

[BarbStAubrey]

started to read last night - have the kindle version - I was amazed after about 20 minutes of reading how enraptured I was not only in the story but the joy I was feeling reading something well written - many books today have a great or unique story line but the reading does not flow - this is a wonderful read and I have not taken time yet to figure out why but you cannot imagine stopping - its what we euphemistically call a 'page turner' and for a mystery that is crucial plus a mystery so well written - I love the cozies but the writing cannot half way compare.

[Scottieluvr]

Curious, will we be using a book guide with our BOTM read?

No, it's all do it yourself here….Sometimes we get off on weird side tracks; when we read the Odyssey, Barb and I had a lengthy shipbuilding discussion about different kinds of keels, and what kind of pitch the Greeks sealed their ships with.

Sounds wonderful to me. Winging-it or structured, I’m adaptable. *S*

Something else to notice: did you notice that your post at the top of this page now includes a heading with picture, schedule, etc?…This is the ONLY way anyone will ever mess with your posts.  If I ever tried to do anything else to your posts I would get fired instantly.

Until you pointed it out, I hadn’t noticed.  But thank you for the heads up. *S*

[waafer]

BARBARA - like you I have a copy from Kindle and have started to read.  What a joy to read a book that is so well written-punctuation all in the right places.  I will follow the discussion starting on the 15th.  It has been interesting to read bits about the author, as I had never even heard his name before.

[BarbStAubrey]

Here is the website of all things Wilkie Collins - the only other book I knew of that he wrote was 'The Woman in White' but it appears there were many other books and evidently his letters are an important part of his canon of writing.

http://www.wilkiecollins.com/

[BarbStAubrey]

Looks like the Victorian Web lists all of his novels

http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/collins/works1.html.

[JoanK]

WELCOME, WELCOME WAAFER!! Pull up a chair and have some tea and scones.

We aren't starting til April 15th to give everyone a chance to do their income tax (and me a chance to recover from a rotten cold). So don't get carried away and read the whole thing. We'll put up the reading schedule later.

Barb: I had no idea he wrote so much! And several of the novels are in three volumes!!!?!!!.

[JudeS]

Hi Scottie-Pam
Please tell me what you meant by "steampunk" which you listed as a genre you enjoy reading.
The word elicited for me Thomas the Steam Engine and young people with strange haircuts.

Perhaps the punks are traveling on the train?

Perhaps the punks are "steaming" i.e. angry?

Perhaps the steam refers to the hot love the punks are having?

I will stop here and await your answer ,which, I am sure, will make more sense than my endless imaginings.

New people bring their own worlds to us so welcome and continue to surprise us.

[JoanP]

Wilkie Collins changed his Preface in the  later editions of this novel. I'm not talking about the Prologue to the novel... but the "Author's Preface."  I'm curious to know if the edition you are reading contains the two prefaces.   My copy has the Preface to the 1868 edition, as well as the Preface to the1871 edition three years later.  

Without giving anything away of the story, I noticed that Wilkie Collins suffered from gout - just as Charles Dickens did.  Wasn't this a strange coincidence?  Makes you wonder how widespread rheumatic gout was at this time in England...    I thought Dickens died from gout affecting his foot -   but was it rheumatic gout? Do you know anything about rheumatic gout?

Waafer-Junee, it's great to have you join us again - all the way from Australia.  Have you finished Hare with Amber Eyes? Love those posts from different time zones!

[waafer]

JOANP

Yes I have finished The Hare With the Amber Eyes and really enjoyed that book specially after reading all the extra bits I read in here.  It was a great story.  I will be reading and following the discussion from the 15th.    Thanks Joan.

[Scottieluvr]

Hi Scottie-Pam
Please tell me what you meant by "steampunk" which you listed as a genre you enjoy reading.
The word elicited for me Thomas the Steam Engine and young people with strange haircuts. Perhaps the punks are traveling on the train? Perhaps the punks are "steaming" i.e. angry? Perhaps the steam refers to the hot love the punks are having? I will stop here and await your answer ,which, I am sure, will make more sense than my endless imaginings. New people bring their own worlds to us so welcome and continue to surprise us.

Hello JudeS,

Well, yes, they can have strange haircuts, travel on trains, and can be angry, and erotic passion is always welcomed.    However, I think the real answer you search is posted on the Science Fiction board: http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=81.msg187939#msg187939

But here’s a very generalized summary of what Steampunk is, from that discussion: “In summary, again my humble viewpoint, Steampunk is alternative history combined with science fiction, fantasy and/or western genres. It possesses no walls, as vampires, zombies, fairies, cowboys, military elements sow many beloved stories on the internet and in books stores (mortar and cyber).”   

[Scottieluvr]

Here is the website of all things Wilkie Collins - the only other book I knew of that he wrote was 'The Woman in White' but it appears there were many other books and evidently his letters are an important part of his canon of writing. http://www.wilkiecollins.com/

Thank you for sharing the link, BarbStAubrey.  I downloaded, “The Woman in White” from Project Gutenberg a while ago: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/583.

[Scottieluvr]

BARBARA - like you I have a copy from Kindle and have started to read.  What a joy to read a book that is so well written-punctuation all in the right places.  I will follow the discussion starting on the 15th.  It has been interesting to read bits about the author, as I had never even heard his name before.

Welcome waafer, so glad to meet you. 

[Scottieluvr]

Wilkie Collins changed his Preface in the  later editions of this novel. I'm not talking about the Prologue to the novel... but the "Author's Preface."  I'm curious to know if the edition you are reading contains the two prefaces.   My copy has the Preface to the 1868 edition, as well as the Preface to the1871 edition three years later.  

No, mine doesn’t have a preface.  But then mine is a copy from Project Gutenberg.

[…]   but was it rheumatic gout? Do you know anything about rheumatic gout?

A form of rheumatic arthritis: build up of uric acid in the joints, particularly one joint. It’s very painful.  This site has an interesting definition: http://www.lilyblog.com/rheumatic-gout-arthritis.html

[JoanK]

Hmmmm. gout seems to be a constant theme in British novels, usually involving older men who drink too much port. the Mayo clinic agrees with that stereotype: more men than women get it, and drinking too much wine increases risk. It's a little different from the rheumatic gout discussed above: sudden attacks of great pain: especially in the big toe.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/gout/DS00090

You don't here much about it now, presumably because it's treatable. the British upper-class diet may have contributed to it.

[PatH]

For those who have started to read the book:  we will divide the book into four or five chunks for discussion.  For a book like this, with plot twists and turns, it's more fun if you don't read ahead.  It's also difficult with this book.  It sucks you in.

[BarbStAubrey]

PatH how many pages for the first week so we do not over read...

[JoanK]

We haven't decided yet.

[JoanP]

In Collins' Preface to the 1871 edition, he talks about how painfully afflicted he was by the gout - and writes that he only continued writing the story because Dickens had already begun to publish it in weekly installments.  He felt he couldn't let his readers down.  BUT he was so weak, in such pain and confined to bed, that he was unable to visit his ill mother before she died.  I think I'll be aware of the suffering author while reading his story.

[PatH]

PatH how many pages for the first week so we do not over read...

It's hard to go by pages, since we all have different editions, some as ebooks.  But the narrative is broken into small sections with Roman numerals.  I'm guessing these are the weekly installments, so we probably all have them.  Go through section XI in Gabriel Betteredge's narrative.  That's 1/5 of the way (84 pages of 412 in my book), and a good place to break the narrative.  It ends with: "A day or two after, however, the darkness lifted a little.  How, and with what result, you shall presently see."

We will go at least that far, farther if we can find a good break.

[PatH]

JoanP, I have both prefaces too.  Collins credits the necessity of rallying from his pain enough to write the next installment, not let his readers down, with saving his life.  I can't imagine starting to publish weekly installments of a book you hadn't yet finished, maybe didn't even know how it was going to end.  No leeway for writer's block for sure.

[JoanP]

But on the upside, the author could assess his readers' reactions to a previous installment and adjust the plot accordingly in later installments...

[Scottieluvr]

JoanP, I have both prefaces too.  Collins credits the necessity of rallying from his pain enough to write the next installment, not let his readers down, with saving his life.  I can't imagine starting to publish weekly installments of a book you hadn't yet finished, maybe didn't even know how it was going to end.  No leeway for writer's block for sure.

Fascinating background history on this author, thank you. 

[Frybabe]

Odd! I don't see a preface to my copy. I'll have to see if I can find it. I forget which site I downloaded mine from.

In the meantime, the prologue has me hooked already.

[JoanK]

I love my kindle, but today I borrowed a hard copy from the library. It has the prefaces, and it's going to be a lot easier to look through and devide the book into chunks.

[salan]

My copy (free on Kindle) has the prefaces at the beginning.  I have started.  Are we going to start with 1-12?
Sally

[Donnie]

I aim to join this discussion and hopefully have something to post.  I grew up with Nancy Drew and learned to love mysteries ever since.  I start at the beginning and read until the end; but, if I remember correctly, the mother in End of Your Life (I read this book when it first came out) said she always started at the end because it gave her a better understanding of the book as a whole - I think there is something to that.  I always have several books going at the same time; always there is a mystery book among them.  To me a mystery is a story where there is a crime needed to be solved and a detective to solve it. I don't think romance should be left out but torrid sex scenes vividly described spoil a "fun" read.  Perhaps then that is why I like British mystery writers because they tend to be more reserved in describing relationships; rather they lean toward the philosophical and psychological implications of human nature that I can identify with or refute.  To me all fiction books are mysteries in the since that there is a conflict of interests that need to be resolved.  However in a mystery the focus should be on what crime was committed and who done it; whereas, in a romance the focus should be on what are the conflicts that creep into relationships and how are they resolved.

[PatH]

Welcome, Sally.  It's good to see you here.  I'll post the starting schedule below very shortly.

[PatH]

Donnie, it's good to meet you here.  This book should be just what you want in a mystery.  It's best described as a mystery with a love interest.  It's more mystery than romance: crime, detective, etc, but the love interest is important in the plot too.  I promise you there are no torrid sex scenes.  In fact, no sex scenes.  After all, this is Victorian England.

I recommend not reading ahead.  It makes for a better discussion.

I'll post the starting schedule below.

[PatH]

Here's the start of the schedule:

April 15-21: Through section XI in Gabriel Betteredge's narrative, ending with: "A day or two after, however, the darkness lifted a little.  How, and with what result, you shall presently see."

April 21-?:  The rest of Betteredge's narrative, up to the end of the first period, stopping when you come to Miss Clack's narrative.

In my 412 page book, these are each 84 pages.

[JoanK]

SALAN: sounds like you found a kindle version that I missed. I notices there was more than one. I'll have to check it out.

DONNIE: WELCOME WELCOME. Do join us in the Mystery Corner as well.

[BarbStAubrey]

Glad to see a new face among us - welcome Donnie - what a fun discussion this is gong to be with a well written book and a couple of new participants who are pulling up their chair and joining us - have you decided on your snack or drink while reading and discussing with us -

Since this is set in Victoria England for me it just must be Tea - I still have some of Whittard's Old English Fruit flavored tea in my cabinet and as much as I do not need a nibble I know I will break down - but I am determined to stay away from the cookies and muffins or even scones that I can easily gobble up without realizing it. The berries are prolific in the market - that's what I need to do pickup a few boxes of berries as my snack while reading this classic by Collins.

I am surprised to learn this was written in 1859 - I read it so long ago that I have forgotten the plot but when I did read it I imagined it taking place closer to the twentieth century - more like 1889 - this is actually before our Civil War. I just never associated Collins with Dickinson and yet we learn they were both writing in London at the same time.

[Scottieluvr]

I aim to join this discussion and hopefully have something to post.  I grew up with Nancy Drew and learned to love mysteries ever since.  I start at the beginning and read until the end; but, if I remember correctly, the mother in End of Your Life (I read this book when it first came out) said she always started at the end because it gave her a better understanding of the book as a whole - I think there is something to that.  [...]

Welcome Donnie! Looking forward to your joining the disccussion(s)