Moonstone, The by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online

[JudeS]

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The Moonstone
Wilkie Collins

In T.S. Eliot called The Moonstone "the first and greatest English detective novel." Told from the standpoint of several, very different, very British characters, it is the funny, irreverent, dramatic, romantic, very British story of the theft of an Indian jewel taken from the eye of an idol and then stolen again from a very British country house by mysterious Indians. Come and join us: I'll bet you can't guess "whodunit" and what they did!     Discussion Schedule: April 15-21: Through section XI in Gabriel Betteredge's narrative, ending with: "A day or two after, however, the darkness lifted a little.  How, and with what result, you shall presently see." April 21-25:   The rest of Betteredge's narrative, up to THE END OF THE FIRST PERIOD, stopping when you come to Miss Clack's narrative. April 26-May 1: SECOND PERIOD: first two narratives:Miss Clack and Mr. Bruff Related Links::Gutenberg electronic text

For Your Consideration
April 26-May 1: SECOND PERIOD: first two narratives: Miss Clack and Mr. Bruff

1. Does Collins do a good job of changing voices with his various narrators or do they all sound the same? Does the device of having different narrators work well? Where else have you seen it used? Successfully or not?

2. If you have read Dickens, how does his criticism of women philanthropists compare to Collins'? Which is more apt? Do you feel these criticisms were justified?

3. Why did Rachel accept Godfrey's proposal? Do you agree with her scruples in the way she declines later?

4. We have compared Sergeant Cuff to Mr. Tulkinghorn, the lawyer in Bleak House.  How does the lawyer Mr. Bruff compare to Tulkinghorn?

5. Mr. Murthwaite says "the clairvoyance in this case is simply a development of the romantic side of the Indian character." What do you think is Collins' view of clairvoyance? Of the Indian character?

6. Most of the characters are at least somewhat religious.  Which ones are sincere? hypocritical? self-serving? What do you think is Collins’ attitude?

7. Did this section change your mind about the solution to the mystery?
  

DISCUSSION LEADERS: JoanK &  PatH

Oh, Barb....Your novel is so much deeper and symbolic than Collins work.
If only you had been his adviser we would have had a serious and weighty tome.
As it is, I think, the novel was measnt to arouse curiosity and was writteen for a "Weekly", with wide consumption.
Somehow Dickens managed to inject the depth, breadth and seriousness into this form. But as yet, Collins has given us a
"Sensational" as they called it at the time.
However we have read only half the book so the other half may prove me wrong.

Remember, most of the readers of that time (and even now) had only a smidgin of the education you have.

[BarbStAubrey]

JudeS I have spoken to many an author who say where they do not write conscious of the symbolism they see their choices instinctive as right and then later see how the symbolism matches.

We also, have several encyclopedias that explain to us the symbolism in Literature and so it seems to me a story can be fuller if we use our resources.

I do not think I am creating a story, rather, only seeing the fullness of the work of Collins, written for a newspaper, published and edited by Dickens which was the more profitable during this time. However, neither author are slouches that have been relegated to the banal likes of newspaper or magazine stories that are 'less than' compared to those published in book form. We still have many well respected authors who write their stories in magazines. We know a good author does not include anything in his story that could be removed so the tidbits help us with the richness of the author's craft. And so in that light here is more.

Been trying to figure out the location Collins is using to place the Verinder Estate - it has to be fictitious - there is a Frizinghall, England which is a village in Yorkshire 175 miles (281km) north west of London and in the west part of Leeds. however, this is too far inland to be near any Cobb's  Hole. So far what I am finding is that in 1861 Collins vacationed in Yorkshire and places he stayed or visited are thought to be the setting.

However, I wanted to track down the story of Rosanna and her chains - Chains are symbolic to St. Leonard, an early Frankish noble whose story in a nutshell is he goes to King Clovis I and asks if he can free some deserving prisoners and slaves - his work is lorded and as a nobleman's son he could receive some high office but declines to become a monk. He is the patron saint of prisoners and women in labor [hmm that has been a gnawing thought about our Rachel] Any how where he is venerated along the routes to Santiago in Spain, Britain also has its share in the Leonard story. In Essex is Leonard's Forest, also dedicated to St. Leonard is a church in Kent, several churches in the West Midlands and the White Ladies Priory, a ruined Augustinian house. The largest hospital in northern mediaeval England was an Augustinian foundation dedicated to St. Leonard, in York.

And so where the chains of our Rosanna my not further the detective mystery the choice of chains is emblematic if we see her as being saved from prison suggesting a rope would not further the tale.

[JoanK]

BARB: "But yes the grafting - I wondered if that was meant as an analogy to Godfrey from new money being grafted onto the old respected titled family."

That's a good thought. I'll bet you're right. So Collins, who is so sympathetic to working men and women, doesn't want them marrying the nobility.

Actrually, it may be the rising middle class (represented by Godfrey) that he resents. The working class, he can appreciate: they stay in their "place" and are no threat, so he can get sentimental about them. But the middle class is too close for comfort. We saw that in Dickens as well, where a lawyer of no family is ridiculed because he actually has the temerity to think he could marry into the upper class!!!

[Frybabe]

Actually I rather liked the Franklin/Chaucer thought. Collins would almost certainly have read Chaucer.
And what an interesting thought about the grafting of the roses - new money marrying into old.

BTW, Barb, do you think Collins used allegory in his writings? Probably a lot of authors use it as some point in their writings, don't you think? I don't mean whole books like Aesop's Fables or Undine, but scattered bits here and there. The bottom of this page has a paragraph on how to analyze allegory. Wihs
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/examples-of-allegory-in-literature.html  I kind of wish I had seen that before reading Undine.

JoanK, do you think that the Ladies Charities really needed a man to lead them? They still thought women couldn't possibly have a head for business back then did't they.

[BarbStAubrey]

Actrually, it may be the rising middle class (represented by Godfrey) that he resents.

JoanK makes you wonder since Better...edge is for Godfrey and sees his character as closer to his ideal he is sure making a class distinction - Since everything i read suggest Collins came from a privileged background maybe he is writing with the awareness of slurs he sees, not so much in England but this is when Europe is in an uproar as the average push for more representation in both Germany and in France.

do you think that the Ladies Charities really needed a man to lead them?

Not just in the mid nineteenth century but in the late 20th and early 21st - I was furious and never went back - we had a wonderful successful Woman's Council of Real Estate that in the nineties a few mortgage and title company guys joined. Next thing I know in turn they are elected as presidents - I was shocked, angry and dismayed - there are still a few guys in the group who are handed hook line and sinker some of the leadership roles. sheesh.

[JoanK]

Sheesh is right! Of course they don't! But I guess Collins thought they did.(and some women, too, I gues).

He does have rachel be a strong-minded woman. But notice how often he mentions how unusual she is!

[JoanK]

Remember tomorrow's the last day on this section, so get in your comments. For Friday, we'll read the section narrated by Miss Clack and the one narrated by Mr. Bruff.

Is anyone having trouble keeping up? I think you'll enjoy the next section, if you haven't read it.

[Jonathan]

Getting to the end of Betteredge's account of the moonstone mystery he has Franklin saying:

'When I came here from London with that horrible Diamond', he said, 'I don't believe there was a happier household in England than this. Look at the household now! Scattered, disunited - the very air of the place poisoned with mystery and suspicion! Do you remember that morning at the Shivering Sand, when we talked about my uncle Herncastle, and his birthday gift? The Moonstone has served the Colonel's vengeance,, by means which the Colonel himself never dreamt of !'

After which, Franklin, too, packs his bags and leaves. Asked by Betteredge where he is going, he replies: Going? I am going to the devil!'. Even the pony is startled, 'as if he had felt a Christian horror of it.'

Betteredge: 'I kept my spirits from sinking by sticking fast to my pipe and my Robinson Crusoe.'

The book is a commentary on nineteenth century attitudes and feelings about many things, including class and gender. What would the readers have made of the doctors remedy for the distraught Rachel? 'She had better be amused. Flower-shows, opera balls - there was a whole round of gaieties in prospect; and Rachel, to her mother's astonishment, eagerly took to it all.'
 

And I'm astonished at the hidden meanings that can be found in everything. It's true. Authors write stuff they're hardly conscious of. Directed by the muses, of course. It was astonishing to read that Collins himself was so caught up in what her was writing that he forgot his gout and even his dying mother.

[BarbStAubrey]

Imagine not 50 years but nearly 150 years to only hear, as if in life the witness to the story with no reports of hear-say.  Wow, it seems Collins hoped for a story that would be read for the next 50 years but I bet he never imagined 146 years we would still be asked to respect Betteredge as a witness - and yes, he is a proper companion - I must say at the first I was confused thinking Betteredge was supposed to be an Indian house servant much like Queen Victoria's Abdul Karim - it took me over a chapter to realize he was an Englishman Butler.

And so we are left to contemplate a description of Good and Evil - hmmm and here I thought a simple mystery of a stolen or lost diamond that was stolen by an Englishman and somehow was being returned to the forehead of its original religious statuary.

I had not noticed till you wrote it out Jonathan that within his two sentences Franklin goes from Evil to Christian Horror - hmm wonder if that is an example of the Good and Evil referred to by Betteredge. Well he may be content and patient to learn what happens next with his pipe and his copy of Robinson Crusoe but smoking is not my thing and I did not find Robinson Crusoe to be as filled with Biblical advise as Betteredge does - I kinda like the prescription given to Rachel but then I am too curious to go skipping out with friends - and so at this late hour I think I will open some wine and read on seeing if the story discovers and shares the truth.

[BarbStAubrey]

Does anyone's book include one of those charts that show how family members are related - I am getting confused - there were the 3 daughters and 2 sons of which one is the guy who while serving in India and after an attack steals the stone that was set in a Dagger - what ever happened to the dagger and I thought Blake was a cousin and then somewhere it indicated he was the other brother - Blake was not ever going to speak to him after seeing him steal the dagger but ends up being his solicitor who helps administer his will - but again if he is a cousin than what who is and what happened to the other brother.

OK I got it that John is married to the youngest of the three sisters but is Apple whatever whose son is Godfrey related to John? And who and how is Miss Clark related in this family tree?

[PatH]

It's a bit like Gilbert and Sullivan's HMS Pinafore: "His sisters and his cousins who he reckons up by dozens and his aunts."

But it actually boils down to the 5 Herncastle siblings:

 1. the heir to the title.

 2. the wicked John, who stole the diamond

 3. eldest sister, married Mr. Blake, produced Franklin Blake

 4. second sister, married Mr. Ablewhite, produced Godfrey Ablewhite and other children

 5. Julia, married Sir John Verinder, produced Rachel

So Franklin, Godfrey, and Rachel are all first cousins to each other.

Miss Clack, who we are about to meet, is the niece of Sir John Verinder, so she is Rachel's cousin, but not related to anyone else.

People seem to have married their first cousins a lot back then, at least in books.  I think it's still legal in England, maybe here too, but it's now regarded as a bad idea.

[JoanP]

5 Herncastle siblings:

So, John Herncastle stole the gem.  He is the family outcast.  His three sisters are the Herncastle girls - the youngest is Julia, who married a Verinder, and she is Rachel's mother.  Franklin and Godfrey are the sons of the other two girls.  So far, so good.   Who is the fifth Herncastle?  Maybe Miss Clack is the daughter of the missing Herncastle?

It dawns on me that we are about to say goodbye to Mr. Betteredge.  This breaks my heart.  What will become of him?  He's to  stay back in Yorkshire while everyone, including his daughter Penelope,  head to London.  Tell me that somehow they will all return to Yorkshire and the rose garden!  I still think there's something going on under the gravel paths...

[PatH]

Ooops.  That shows I shouldn't ever post before I've had my coffee.  I typed Herncastle everywhere, even where I meant to type Verinder.  I've now corrected it above.  The fifth Herncastle is #1 in the list above, the heir to the title, who doesn't figure in any way in the story.  Miss Clack is the niece of Sir John Verinder.  I don't see why Collins had to make two Johns; he's just trying to confuse us.

[JoanP]

Oh,  okay then, Miss Clack is not blood-related to Franklin and GodFrey...as she is to Rachel on the Verinder side...

That untangles that mystery.  Now where is the diamond?  Sergeant Cuff believes he has solved the mystery and is ready to move on to his next case.  Did he accept Lady
  Verinder's check? I thought not, but if not, why not?  Maybe he is waiting for the missing diamond to turn up...the missing diamond that has NOT been stolen...

[PatH]

Sergeant Cuff didn't accept Lady Verinder's check at first.  He wanted to make his report, recommend what to do next, then see if Lady V. wanted him to continue.  After Cuff had made his recommendations, Lady V. went to Frizinghall, and confronted Rachel as Cuff had suggested.  After this he accepted his dismissal and the check, considering he had done what he had contracted to do.

[JoanP]

Thanks, PatH!  I'd forgotten that he took the check.  He's convinced that this was an internal family affair, that the diamond has not been stolen.    I'm looking forward to running into the Sergeant again - in London - when/if the diamond really does  get stolen!

Heartbroken to leave Betteredge waving goodbye in the driveway.  Thought of him as a main character.  Do you believe each of the narrators will play a narrow/limited role then?
  

"Collins himself was so caught up in what her was writing that he forgot his gout and even his dying mother."

Jonathan, I recall reading that Collins' mother passed away and his gout fairly crippled him as he was writing the coming chapters on Miss Clack, but he felt he had led his readers this far in the installments we've just finished, that he had to go on, not to let them (us) down.  Really amazing that he was capable of the humorous portrayal of Miss Clack, I agree.

[BarbStAubrey]

I love it - His sisters and his cousins who he reckons by the dozens - fun.

This Miss Clack is a piece isn't she - found this about the religious tracks on Wikipedia

The Religious Tract Society, founded 1799, 56 Paternoster Row and 65 St. Paul's Chuchyard, was the original name of a major British publisher of Christian literature intended initially for evangelism, and including literature aimed at children, women, and the poor.

The founders were of the same type of evangelicals who founded the London Missionary Society and the British and Foreign Bible Society, for example David Bogue.

The society started by publishing tracts, but rapidly expanded their work into the production of books and periodicals. Their books were mostly small but did include larger works such as the multi-volume Devotional Commentary and the massive Analytical Concordance to the Bible of Robert Young.

Well I'll be... look here... The Brazen Serpent (1839) online http://archive.org/details/brazenserpent741reli

Cannot find The Serpent At Home but did find The Serpent and Sin   http://www.godsacres.org/tract.TheSerpentOfSin.pdf

[Jonathan]

'cousins by the dozens'...that's a good way to put it. Collins keeps reminding us that this is a family affair. Let's not forget the sixth Herncastle, the progenitor of the lot. He did get a mention, didn't he?

'Really amazing that he was capable of the humorous portrayal of Miss Clack, I agree.' That is an interesting thought, JoanP. Why did he make such a caricature out of her? The narrative is dripping with sarcasm and satire. And there is an irony in that.

Betteredge concludes his account by saying that readers are 'to be treated in all respects like a Judge on the bench.' Acting under orders, he says. All accounts, his and the others to follow,  are given in the interests of truth. And who is more devoted to the Truth than Miss Clack. But she herself is portrayed in such a 'humorous' way, thanks to the authors intervention.

What a contrast. To go from Gabriel's rational, objective evidence to Drusilla's religious hysteria. We're witnesses to the agony of a saint.

[Jonathan]

Rachel, according to Clack needs a clergyman, not a physician. 'Exercise and amusement!' 'Oh, what heathen advice!' 'In this Christian country.'

Did I understand it correctly? Is she being paid for her contribution to the truth? And her conscience stands in the way of accepting the check. Didn't Cuff have a similiar problem?

[JoanK]

I think Betteridge will be back. Meanwhile, enjoy Miss Clack.

I loved "The Serpant and Sin". haven't been able to find "Sin in the Sofa Cushions. Rats!

[JudeS]

Jonathan
Not surprisingly, Miss Clack accepted the check.
Even to put her in the same sentence with Cuff is dishonorong that fine ,intelligent man.
Barb
, I read the material on the sites you mentioned. All made up by the fire and brimstone preachers. They call dancing and card playing the fiery serpents doing. They make up things that don't exist in the text of Exodus in the Bible.
The writers along with their proseltizer, Drusilla Clack, are pitiful.

However , Miss Clack, does have one saving grace. She tells it like she sees it even if her interpretation of those events are sometimes improbable, sometimes silly and almost always unintentionally humorous.
Here are a couple of her priceless sayings:

"Let your faith be as your stockings, and your stockings as your faith. Both ever spotless, and both ready to put on at a moment's notice."

"When the Christian Hero (she means Godfrey) of a hundred charitable victories plunges into a pitfall that has been dug for him by mistake, oh, what a warning it is to the rest of us to be unceasingly on our guard! How soon may our own evil passions prove to be Oriental noblemen who pounce on us unawares."

"Dearest Rachel", he said in the same voice which had thrilled me when he spoke of our prospects and our trousers......"

"Sorrow and sympathy! Oh what pagan emotions to expect from a Christian Englishwoman anchored firmly on her faith!"

[salan]

Marking my place.  I've finished thru chapter XX11, but haven't started the next 2 narratives.  I hope we are not through with Betteredge.  I've grown quite fond of him.  I got quite impatient with Rachel....
Sally

[BarbStAubrey]

Sally join us with your thoughts as you can - if we have read the section you are remarking on that is fine - this story is turning into a frolic with hysteria from Rachel while Betteredge tells the tale and from Miss Clack who is the next story teller.

I think both Cuff and Clack had self-righteous problems with their checks and both soothed their conscience by completing the job as they were hired to do.

You picked out some Doozies JudeS     

[PatH]

Well, on to a new section today.  I guess everyone's reading like mad.  I'm traveling, but will have posting time too.

Miss Clack is quite a change from Betteredge, isn't he?  This is the section Collins wrote while in agony from gout and woozy from opium.  Do you think it shows?

[JoanP]

Her very name is a comment on how the author and the other characters regard this new narrator.  Rachel insists on calling her "Clack" from the start.  I thought it was a nickname...but soon enough Aunt Verinder addresses her as "Drusilla."  Drusilla Clack.  Rachel doesn't call this cousin by her first name - ever.  She may as well be calling this ideosyncratic cousin,  "Quack."   The name Clack indicates that none of the Verinders hold her in high regard.  Except Aunt V. seems to treat her kindly - at least with some forebearance.  Is this character indicative of how Wilkie C and those of this period regard the women  we'd refer to as "do-gooders?"  We've recently seen the same attituces in DIckens Bleak House...
It will be interesting to learn what this narrator can contribute to the location of the Monnstone...

[JoanK]

OK, here is the most important question: in the absence of Mr. Godfrey Ablewhite, if you were a member of the Select Committee of the Mothers' Small-Clothes-Conversion-Society, what would YOU do about the surfeit of trousers? (don't tell me you're too busy reading "Satan amoung the Sofa Cushions" to answer. That's no excuse in such an emergency!

[Scottieluvr]

Well, on to a new section today.  I guess everyone's reading like mad.  I'm traveling, but will have posting time too.

Miss Clack is quite a change from Betteredge, isn't he?  This is the section Collins wrote while in agony from gout and woozy from opium.  Do you think it shows?

Yea, I’m reading still, but in answer to your question – OH!  She’s a HUGE change from Betteredge! *LOL* Betteredge’s a rather furtive presence as opposed to Clack’s relentless attendance, only matched by her vigorous quest to save everyone she comes into contact. Betteredge refrains from imposing upon others, whereas Clack imposes in the disguise of enlightenment, which she then brings to the point of nauseating.

While I’m reading, its not evident Collins’ endures anything that affects his work. The writing is smooth, consistent and enjoyable all the way through (at least to where I’ve stopped so far).

[Scottieluvr]

[...] Is this character indicative of how Wilkie C and those of this period regard the women  we'd refer to as "do-gooders?"  [...]

Yes to the question, but... do-gooders today are viewed still in this light, don’t you think? I know while reading Clack's contribution to this story her relentless demeanor, thinking and beliefs were all too familiar with some people I’ve encountered throughout my adult life.

[Frybabe]

What struck me about Miss Clack's behavior was her tenacity and the monumental amount of rationalization she used to excuse rude behavior towards her, as well has her own behavior when she deemed something unavoidable or necessary.

I continue to find Rachel a rather unlikable spoiled brat. Likewise, I continue to be suspicious of Godfrey's motives regarding his Ladies Charities and Rachel. I can't help but wonder if he has been "borrowing" money from the charity funds and hopes to marry into Verinder money.

[BarbStAubrey]

Ah yes Scottielovr the do-gooders - seems to me there are do-gooders and do-gooders - it is the ones who need to be important or judge who and how and why that regardless their lifetime associations are a special breed of their own. Great character description, "Clack imposes in the disguise of enlightenment" - love it.  

Interesting, Lady Verinder dies - I wonder what her character prevents that it was better for Collins to eliminate her - she had some control over Rachel and so we shall see if she becomes more subdued - Rachel does make the decision her future it not with Godfry. - boy was he smooth or was he smooth tripping along the path of coercion. I wonder Frybabe if you are not on to something - he is in over his head and using monies that the ladies would be floored with the rug pulled out from under them, if they knew.  

What's with all this ribbon nonsense when Clack describes Penelope - sounds like she does not like Penelope - do you think Drusilla sees herself as an equal to Penelope I wonder or why in the world would she have such an adverse reaction to a servant.

Easy enough to see the hubris of Drusilla Clack in similar light to the hubris of many Americans including the government after WWII - ah so and so it goes. Maybe that is why we can laugh because we recognize some of our-self.

Our three Indian jugglers are really branching out going FOR the juggler - I bet the bank is not sheltering the moonstone but where is it? One guess it could be on its way to Amsterdam with Franklin as he left for an unknown destination or back to my discomfort with Mr. Murthwaite, who so far in Clack's telling has not again been mentioned. [I have not yet finished this weeks read]

Well poor Drusilla did not receive her legacy and with her Christian proverbs she will probably quote ways to justify her sinking into more sacrifice to keep alive her respectable poverty.

[JoanK]

Don't worry, Mr. Murthwaite will show up whenever Collins wants to explain somethind about the Indians. handy, isn't he?

Well, I haven't gotten any answers to my question, and the trousers are piling up!

[JudeS]

Joan K
A surfeit of trousers?
What shall we do?
Give one to him, one to her
And two to you.

Still too many you say?
The answer is clear
Pantless Angels in Heaven
Will cover their rear.

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh my  Bill Wilson was not yet born and so these angry and exasperated women felt punishment was appropriate for fathers who could not care for their families and provide their sons with decent trousers. The fathers were to suffer further humiliation by having their own trousers, hocked to pay for a night of oblivion in drink, grabbed from the pawn shop and ripped into pieces and quickly sewn into trousers for their sons - does not sound like the "good" ladies matched trousers to family but simply willy nilly obtained, ripped, cut and sewed then, put in a pile waiting for their Godfry to help with the distribution. Worse then the pouring of liquor down the sink as if that was going to stop the drunk.

Remember when drunks were regularly jailed - at least it was the local jail where as now those using drugs are sent away for months and years.

Poor Drucilla - she was as shocked as all of them and reacted with what she had - oh I did feel for her - she had no clue and was trying to help ending up making an enemy of everyone - sure she had her selfish considerations while she was being true to her values as she knew them but then they all have their selfish considerations. I no more think Bruff is as purely good hearted as he sounds having Rachel stay with him and his family.

And what ever is at the bottom of all this - Rachel is playing a fine game whatever is going on. She is a master so far of both sections - as much as she is distraught with the death of her mother I do think she is over dramatizing for affect her tears and reactions.

Whew Collins sure used words painting a compelling picture of the volatile scene with Applewhite confronting Rachel - would he have dared if Lady Verinder were in the room - but then if she were still alive they would not be in Brighton. One thing you can say for Rachel she is standing up well to the power and authority of men - she removed herself from her promise to marry and she put detectives in their place - and now alone, more easily picked off, Applewhite tries to control her but she stays firm. No wonder Drusilla wanted to control and tamper her spirit - Rachel is what Drusilla would like to be but does not know how to pull it off so she hides her aggressive nature behind propagandizing for her evangelical views.

[Frybabe]

Barb, you brought up two interesting thoughts.

Miss Clack vs. Penelope. Odd that Miss Clack did not give Penelope the same consideration as the others for her perceived rudeness. I don't recall her excusing/rationalizing Penelope's behavior at all. More insulting to Penelope behind her back, Miss Clack refers to her by the ribbons on her maid's cap.

I felt at one point that Mr. Bruff looked on Rachel in something of a lascivious manner even though he is married. Well, overly solicitous at least. Perhaps he felt it was part of his duty as lawyer to protect Rachel. Is he the executor of Rachel's mother's will? I can see him using her presence in his household as an excuse to extract more fees from the estate. By the way, does she actually inherit her mother's estate or does it go to the nearest male relative. Rachel is still under 20, right?

[Frybabe]

JudeS, I forgot to say that I like your little poem.

[PatH]

Rachel has a life interest in the money and property.  This means that she can live on the interest, but not touch the principal or sell the property.  This was a necessary protection for a woman before the passage of the Married Woman's Property Act, as otherwise, when she married, everything she had belonged to her husband, and he could just spend it all.

[PatH]

Jude, you made my morning with your poem .

[Frybabe]

Ah, thanks Pat.

[JoanK]

JUDE 

[JoanK]

Every time I think I have stopped laughing, I start again. "Pantless Angels in Heaven Will cover their rear". Oh my.

BARB: "Rachel is what Drusilla would like to be but does not know how to pull it off so she hides her aggressive nature behind propagandizing for her evangelical views. "

How perceptive of you. I never thought of that, but you're right of course.