Moonstone, The by Wilkie Collins ~ April/May Book Club Online

[JudeS]

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The Moonstone
Wilkie Collins

In T.S. Eliot called The Moonstone "the first and greatest English detective novel." Told from the standpoint of several, very different, very British characters, it is the funny, irreverent, dramatic, romantic, very British story of the theft of an Indian jewel taken from the eye of an idol and then stolen again from a very British country house by mysterious Indians. Come and join us: I'll bet you can't guess "whodunit" and what they did!     Discussion Schedule: April 15-21: Through section XI in Gabriel Betteredge's narrativeo April 21-25:   Betteredge's narrative, up to THE END OF THE FIRST PERIOD April 26-May 1: SECOND PERIOD: first two narratives:Miss Clack and Mr. Bruff May 2-6: the first part of Franklin Blake's narrative, through Chapter VII, ending with "I saw her, and heard her, no more". Related Links::Gutenberg electronic text

For Your Consideration
May 2-6: the first part of Franklin Blake's narrative,
through Chapter VII, ending with "I saw her, and heard her, no more".

1. This section clears up some mysteries, but introduces others. Does Collins do a good job of managing mystery and suspense?

2. Franklin Blake is now speaking for himself.  Does his narrative change your opinion of his character?

3. How are Franklin's and Godfrey's attitudes toward money alike? Why do we tolerate one and not the other?

4. Rosanna Spearman’s letter is the second narrative told by a servant.  This was unusual at the time.  What is Collins’ purpose in doing this?

5. Rosanna describes her emotions on being a reformed thief.  Is this realistic?

6. Why does Rosanna tell Franklin Blake that her father was a gentleman?

7. What do Rosanna and Rachel's stories tell us about Collins' views of women? Do you think the relationships between women and men that he portrays are typical of his times?

8. How will Collins solve the conundrum he has posed? (If you've read ahead, don't answer! Let us guess.)
  

DISCUSSION LEADERS: JoanK &  PatH

Happy to have made you laugh-JoanK and anyone else who thought the limerick was funny.

JoanK- It was your question that elicited my reply and lit my imagination.
I am still worried about Satan among the sofa cushions and the sins committed there.
What color are the cushions and from what material are they wrought?
Who committed the sins and why?  with whom? or perchance alone?

I dare one and all to make a stab at answering these questions which so worry our Miss Clack.

Then poof, she is gone from the story, so perhaps these cushions and sins are not all that important.

I found this section so amusing that the Moonstone itself was not uppermost in my mind.

[Frybabe]

Clearly, Miss Clack's focus was on sinners not an object sure to tempt said sinners.Do we have a clue who, from her characterizations and discoveries, would succumb to the temptation of the diamond? I didn't see it. The best I can say is that Godfrey and the lawyer Bruff are fawning over Rachel, perhaps with a view to control her inheritance to their advantage. I am not sure that has anything to do with the diamond, considering it is supposed to be stolen and perhaps unrecoverable.

Today, I think I will start on Bruff's narrative.

[JoanP]

"The best I can say is that Godfrey and the lawyer Bruff are fawning over Rachel, perhaps with a view to control her inheritance to their advantage."

Fry...I see that you have yet to read Mr. Bruff's narrative.  After reading that, I have come to see Bruff in a different light - with Rachel's interests at heart.  Not so sure about Godfrey's feelings for Rachel though...

WilkieC has presented a rivetting plot, but there is other commentary just below the surface.  So similar to what Dickens was wrting .  They must be reflecting the attitudes of their readers at the time.  The religious do-gooders come under fire here.  BUT, while we laugh at the extremes Miss Clack goes to in "spreading the word," -  hiding those tracts all through her aunt's home...do you really doubt her committment to "spreading the word" and "converting" her cousin?  I can understand the family losing patience with her zealous attempts, of course.  But this is her whole  life.  These are the causes she lives for...   She is clearly smitten with Godfey, who only has eyes for Rachel.  She wants her aunt to leave her a little something, but wouldn't she find a good cause for it?  In all, I'm nto seeing Clack as a hypocite.  I wonder what you think of her.

Godfey is another story.  He professes to be so in love with Rachel...talks her into accepting his proposal, knowing that she does not love him.  But why?  Didn't he recover quickly when Rachel tells him the engagement is off?  Not the behavior of a young man whose heart is broken.  Does Wilkie intend for us to accept this state of affairs -  Or  did I miss the explanation?  Does Godfrey really and truly enjoy his charitable works with Miss Clack and her ladies?

If I had go guess, I'd say that he was forced into the engagement by someone, or by circumstance -- and when Rachel releases him, he feels nothing but relief...happy to return to his former position, adored by ladies everywhere...

[PatH]

You can find the explanation for Godfrey's behavior in Mr. Bruff's narrative, but I'll wait a bit so Frybabe can read it.

Does Godfrey really enjoy his charitable work with the ladies?  I find it hard to believe anyone could stomach that sort of thing, but Godfrey must enjoy it or he wouldn't be so good at it.  He has a very sure touch with the ladies.

[JoanP]

I can think of two reasons why Godfrey enjoys his work with the ladies, Pat.  He basks in the adulation and admiration he gets from them.  And, many of these ladies who get involved in these charitable projects have $$$ ...  How badly does Godfrey need money.  I'll go back and reread Bruff's narrative to learn why he proposed to Rachel - and why he was so relieved when she had second thoughts. 

Do you think Rachel was trying to forget Franklin when she accepted Godfrey's proposal?

[JudeS]

When I think of Godfrey my Mother's words come to me:
"He's a rotter".
In other words-up to no good.
He is the prototype of the "do-gooder" out to do good for imself while covering himself in a patina of holiness.
We have many examples in our own time of this type of person: handsome, charming, silver tongued and self serving.
It seems that there are no truer words than "There's a new sucker born every minute".
I think it is brilliant of Collins to so clearly paint this type of person.
It is almost an object lesson for those wealthy women who were likely to be wooed by such as Godfrey.
I wonder how many of them, reading this story, were kicking themselves and thinking:"How could I have been so stupid as to not see through him."

Bruff's narrative brings the story clearly and solidly back to the moonstone. The writing in his chapters is clear, crisp and interesting. Very modern in style.

I think Collins had messages he wanted to send to the public as well as spinning a great yarn and making a living.
In his other well known work "The Woman in White", he had much to say about two subjects: Marriage firstly and Mental Health secondly. By the time we finish the current novel His messages will be clearly laid out.

[JoanK]

JoanP: " In all, I'm nto seeing Clack as a hypocite.  I wonder what you think of her."

Of course, she's very funny. Not a hypocrite: she believes the self-serving explanations she gives herself for doing exactly what she wants, unlike Godfrey. And so selfish, she can't really feel for Julia's death.

But in spite of all that, she's a pitiful figure: alone, poor, unloved, finding silly occupations to give herself a sense of worth. I thought at first that Collins' sense of sympathy had failed with her, but on second reading I see glimpses of it (as when she points out that five pounds left to her would have meant so much).

What do you all think?

And JUDE, what do you think his message will be?

[JoanP]

JoanK, I 'm waiting for Collins to display his sympathy for Miss Clack by granting he her heart's desire.  Or would marriage to Godfrey be to cruel?

So we are to believe Cousin Godfrey is a "rotter " Jude! That is pretty low! He's willing to marry the cousin in order to get his hands on her fortune!  Was this also the reason he had proposed to her on her birthday?

Is he interested in the Moonstone, or is that forgotten? Bruff learns that G. has paid the shilling to view His aunt's will. (The cost has gone up today)

The fee is £6 for a copy of a grant and/or will for each deceased person. This includes a search of four years after the date of death if you are not sure when the grant was issued. If you want more than one copy of a particular grant and/or will you will need to pay an additional £1 for each copy.


Can you do that in the US?  View anyone's will for a small fee?

Bruff learns that it was Godfrey who hurried in to read the will...and then was immediately relieved to get out of the engagement.  What did he learn about the provisions of the will?  He  would have been set for life married to this very wealthy young lady!

[JoanK]

Yes, but he only got her income and couldn't touch the capital. As Bruff explains, if he only wanted to live well, her income would be enough. But if he needed a large sum of money in a hurry, the income wouldn't help him. What has our Godfrey been up to? gambling? Opium? Embezzlement? Or did he want to grab her money and go off to greener pastures?

[Scottieluvr]

Can you do that in the US?  View anyone's will for a small fee?

Its a public record, so yes, anyone can view a will in the US.  Of course of fee is charged for this servce. 

[Scottieluvr]

   I referred to Godfey Ablewhite as a "pretty boy" before and I stand by it; he's a rakeshell, through and through.    In my humble opinion, he's needing money because of lifestyle, gambling, loose women or all three.

OR

He may have embezzled funds from the charities he attends, so needs to repay the monies before being discovered. Daddy Ablewhite always strived for "greener" pastures but never fully integrated into the "well-off" community as he had hoped. This life-long pursuit may have influenced Godfrey; and as someone else mentioned, why Godfrey entertains mostly women and their charitable causes - they have money.  And Godfrey, in his mind, is a worthy charitable cause.   

[JoanK]

"And Godfrey, in his mind, is a worthy charitable cause."

Got that right!

[Jonathan]

'But in spite of all that, she's a pitiful figure: alone, poor, unloved, finding silly occupations to give herself a sense of worth.' Thanks, JoanK. I was hoping someone would see her that way She works so hard at doing good and being good. And being a good Christian in seeking martyrdom. And finding it. Sure she sees the wicked ways of those around her, tries so hard to reform them, while constantly examining and reexamining her own life. Collins gets a devilish delight in making all her Chritian endeavors look silly. Most of Clacks account is entertaing, to the point where, as Jude points out, we lose sight of the Moonstone.

Clack sees the brazen serpent in Bruff!!! And can't see the villain in Godfrey!!! Bruff is such a professional. Like Tulkinghorn. Well, almost. Tulkinghorn was more secretive. I was amused by Frybabes comment about Bruff appearing lascivious and solicitous with regard to Rachel. Of course. He is a solicitor.

[JudeS]

JoanK
You ask what I think Collins mesage or messages will be by the end of the book.
It would be presumptious of me to dare to presume at this point.
Good writers, like Collins, who want to send a social message can't be too blunt in their presentation.
And like a good wine it is in the aftertaste that the true worth becomes obvious.
So we will continue sipping the fine brew till the end of the meal and see what remains on our palate.

[Frybabe]

Ah, Mr. Murthwaite shows up again. I was a little suspicious of him at the beginning. I thought, how convenient of him to be in the neighborhood when the diamond was brought down from London. And here he is again, looking for funding for his next expedition. (I got the impression that the ladies were the ones presenting him with checks.)

Compared to the other writers, Mr. Bruff doesn't seem to have much to say. Perhaps that is because he doesn't fly off onto side issues like the others did.

[Jonathan]

'What do you think his message will be?'

That's a great question, suggesting something just as important as solving the mystery of the missing Moonstone. The more one thinks about it, the more it seems that Collins does have some moral objective in mind about his times and its mores. Why not see it  parodied in Miss Clack's story?

The Moonstone is a great mystery. Very entertaining. But perhaps it could also be seen as a tract. Especially a feminist tract. The plight of women is told so movingly. And questionably. Ambivanently. One thing Rachel and Miss Clack share so movingly is being let down by their men. The trust, the love, everything ends in disilluionment. Remember Rosanna and Limping Lucy, handicapped by class and social restraints.

Gender inequalities were becoming obvious. Women were awakening to their plight. Novelists were cashing in.

[BarbStAubrey]

I see some structure here using Clack as a figure of humor - I can hear it now even when I was young and she would be a laugh as the comments were still about women drivers as if they had wool in their heads and crazy quilts for eyes.

However, thinking how many plays have a small sorta associated humorous bit. As dark and dramatic Les Mis and yet the Inn keeper and his wife on stage or a hoot - not so much in the movie where I do not see that devise used - even Shakespeare would have a play within a play or a jester or something to break the tension in the story.  Sorta slow it down so that we become patient again to take up the trail towards the end rather than feel annoyed because the solution is not immediate.

Bruff's brief was brusque and becoming to a barrister.

[PatH]

Compared to the other writers, Mr. Bruff doesn't seem to have much to say. Perhaps that is because he doesn't fly off onto side issues like the others did.

Mr. Bruff writes like a lawyer preparing a brief--succinct and keeping to the point.

I think it’s an interesting contrast, Tulkinghorn vs Bruff, Dickens’ view of lawyers vs Collins’.

Tulkinghorn seems to have no need for human relationships.  He lives alone, satisfied with his good dinners and his port.  He is super-vigilant in looking after the interests of his client, Sir Leicester Dedlock, but regards emotions, including Sir Leicester’s love for his wife, as interferences.

Bruff has a family life, with wife and daughters.  He also has friendly feelings for his clients.  He and Rachel’s father were friends, and he was invited to Rachel’s birthday dinner, but couldn’t come.  He has admiration and respect for both Rachel and her mother.

Dickens thinks lawyers are evil.  I don't know what Collins thinks overall, but he sees that some lawyers can be good people.

[PatH]

Jonathan, those are good ideas of possible messages in the book.

Barb, that's a good point, Miss Clack as an interval of comic relief.

[JoanP]

To think that Wilkie was able to give us Miss Clack... and comic relief, while he was in such pain -  and his mother was dying!

While  considering the  messages he may have been sending to his readers  in this "tract", I  am remembering how much these female characters were willing to sacrifice for the men they love.  Do Collins' men deserve them?  I think not!  Wonder what his readers thought at the time...

[JoanK]

A look ahead: we have two more days on this Section. On Thursday May 2nd we'll move on. The next Section will be Franklin Blake's narrative THROUGH CHAPTER VII (7) ONLY.

Warning: it stops at a suspenseful place. We thought we could stop there briefly and speculate how Collins is going to get his characters out of the mess he puts them in. And experience a little of what his readers felt, waiting for the next installment of the serial.

Reading ahead a little won't help. Collins takes his time resolving the situation. If you do read ahead, don't post any spoilers, please.

Questions will be posted by Thursday.  

[salan]

I don't find Miss Clack humorous.  Maybe because I have known people like that.  They don't really care about people.  They only care about spreading "The Word" as they see it.  I am running a little behind...on Bruff''s narrative now.
Sally

[PatH]

Good.  You're still with us, Sally.  Mr. Bruff will be refreshingly straightforward, and we still have some time on this section.

[JoanP]

Sally, I feel sorry for Clack, just as I felt for Rosanna Spearman - two lonely women, hopelessly in love with two men who will never return their affection.
I'm looking forward to hear what you learn from Mr. Bruff's narrative... (Bruff -  gruff, brief ...

Was it unusual for Mr. Bruff to initiate the conversation with Mr. Murthwaite at the dinner party?  Doesn't Mr. Murthw make an appearance at moments significant to the plot?  I can't decide whether to suspect he has a hand in the Indians' plot to steal the diamond - or if he is a means Collins is using to advance the plot.  

Clearly Bruff is puzzled at the question posed to him by the Indian visitors...even more puzzled to learn that they also visited Mr. Lukor and asked him the same question.  It took Murthwaite to coach Bruff into seeing the meaning of the question - and to alert him - and the reader - to the fact that the next attempt will  be the following June, a year or so from Rachel's birthday, a year from the time the diamond was deposited in Luker's account.  I hardly think Murthwaite would have helped Bruff to understand this if he were in on the plot.  I'm not sure what is meant by the clairvoyance of the Indians...still not clear what part this boy is playing in their scheming.  Maybe those of you who are reading Bruff's account now can explain it.  The only thing that I can see - neither Bruff nor Murthwaite believe clairvoyance will solve the mystery of the missing diamond...and so I assume that Collins himself does not consider clairvoyance with any credibility.

One other thing from Murthwaites' explanation - these three Indians are of another generation committed to retrieving the diamond ...and so they must be instructed or guided by others, elders.  When you think about it - their people are  the rightful owners of the diamond, don't you think? Not Herncastle's heir.  Will it be returned to India when all is said and done?

[BarbStAubrey]

What I found fascinating is that each as they tell the story as they witness it give a character witness of Rachel. And even more fascinating to me is their description of Rachel is describing their own emotional reaction to Rachel and to how they see life in general.

I remember looking up the name Murthwaite and found it to be of Scandinavian origin and its meaning was an open field in the forest - it appears now that is what he supplies to the telling of the story - when folks need clarity on the Indians who are more directly tied to the mystery of the diamond than the others, Murthwaite is the link between east and west and explaining and clarifying the story for the reader as well as for the character in the story.  He still makes me uncomfortable he knows too much about the Diamond and how banks and Rachel's household estate functions. I do not remember if he knew John Herncastle however the night of the party he was included as a family friend.

[PatH]

What I found fascinating is that each as they tell the story as they witness it give a character witness of Rachel. And even more fascinating to me is their description of Rachel is describing their own emotional reaction to Rachel and to how they see life in general.

That's an excellent point, Barb.  They are telling as much about themselves as about Rachel.

[Jonathan]

'I am marrying in despair, Mr Bruff.'

'You have forgotten the Moonstone, Mr Bruff. Have I not braved public opinion, there, (fleeing the scene of the crime?) with my own private reasons for it?'

Why does Mr Bruff then tell the reader that he has trouble explaining Rachel's conduct after the diamond went missing? 'I might perhaps have done it, when I was younger. I certainly couldn't do it now.' In any case he helps Rachel out of her marriage problem by revealing Godfrey's interest in the will.

Isn't it curious that everyone in the novel is as mystified as we readers. Wondering what it is all about. What's the message? That some people see marriage as a refuuge?

Nobody should feel sorry for Miss Clack. She reveals so much character in her account of her role in what she describes as 'the deplorable scandal of the moonstone.' And in another place the shocking story of the Moonstone'.

Mr Bruff, on the other hand talks simply of 'the mystery of the Indian Diamond.'

It's hard to beat the dialogue between Mr Bruff and Miss Clack, as they debate the suspicions surrounding certain people. Saint and worldling have it out, and the saint comes out the winner. And she even overlooks her pride when she hears Mr Bruff admit:

'Allow me to congratulate you on the masterly manner in which you have opened the full fire of your batteries on me at the moment when I least expected it. You would have done great things in my profession, ma'am, if you had happened to be a man.'

And it's happening. More women than men now graduate from law school. Miss Clack was leading the way.

[JoanK]

Great point! I can see her as a lawyer now; preferably a prosecutor, never letting her victims escape!

[BarbStAubrey]

"...if you had happened to be a man.' I am feeling drenched in this iron cage of story after story reminding of the few options and personalities we adapted because of limitations - even the wonderful Oscar Hammerstein and I remember every word there was no talking to the dead Billy saying it was not OK - have not watched the 50s show but assume ti is more of the same - you could either be a Rachel or a Drusilla or one of the mature women or a Roseanna or a Penelope or la Teacher or later a Nurse  a Secretary or finally an Airline Hostess - all stereotypical of women with no power except to say yes or no to a marriage and the rest they needed to persuade a guy to get it done. grrrr - I wonder why he spelled Hindu as he does - if it is colloquial there is no other place I can find where he imitates the local dialect.

[JudeS]

Miss Clack today would be a Preacher hailing fire and brimstone on her congregants.
Yes, she knows how to argue. Yes, she provides comical releif for the story but she also is a frustrated spinster supposedly full of good will  to all .
I would not want to be a recipient of her good will. She basically wants to point out everyone elses" sins" in order to make herself feel better than they.
Collins does a masterful job in his portrait of the woman who uses God and religion as a cudgel.
In contrast he uses Rosanna who is supposedly a "bad" woman and portrays her as a sensitive, intelligent and decent human being, not afraid of her feelings and willing to die for them.( Though that is really going a bit overboard.)
In these two woman we see prototypes of many hopeless heroines and many sad and lonely womrn who are without love and affection and consequently their lives turn to dust.
Although they can love (or perhaps, need, is the better word)another they themselves are not lovable and therein lies their tragedy. 

[PatH]

Spot on, Judy.

[JoanP]

Barbara...The only thing I can find on the spelling   Collins uses - "Hindoo is an archaic spelling of Hindu, and one whose use today may be considered derogatory"...  Is it possible that Collins is using the spelling in this way?  I'm going to try to note the characters who refer to the "Hindoo mythology."  
I see Murthwaite referring to "Hindoo mythology" when describing four-armed deity to Bruff. Is he scoffing at the idea that the Indians are behind the theft?  Does he pronounce Hindooo as we see it spelled?
 Murthwaite makes me uncomfortable too...Both times we meet him, he shows no interest in any of the dinner party conversations, except when the subject of the Moonstone is raised.  Remember Rachel's birthday dinner?  He advised her to have the diamond sent to Amsterdam and cut to many pieces.  And then when attending a dinner where Bruff was present, it was only Bruff's mention of the Moonstone that caught his attention.  I don't understand why he's invited anywhere - if he isn't interested in anything but this one subject.  

One last thought before moving on to Blake's narrative...in response to this question:

7. Did this section change your mind about the solution to the mystery?

Though I was shocked and saddened to read of Lady Verinder's death - I wonder if any of you considered her involvement in the "removal" of the diamond?  Obviously she is worried about Rachel's safety.  She'd have a motive to keep her from flaunting it as she had on her birthday.

1. Does Collins do a good job of managing mystery and suspense?

 Oh yes he does!  Have we eliminated anyone who attended that birthday party?  Including Rachel herself?  Here we are now, a year later - and still no clear suspect... Franklin Blake's narrative should be revealing!

[Zulema]

I have not been here because I'm afraid I went way ahead and don't want to spoil things.  But I felt the whole Clack episode was just a distraction, comic relief I might have called it except for Mrs. Devinder's death which was so unexpected.  Yet there must have been a reason for Collins doing away with her as a character.  Perhaps to bring to the fore the whole of Godfrey's family (and I don't like any of them, particularly Godfrey and his father).  I don't think the spelling of Hindoo shows prejudice either way beyond the basic prejudice always there.  Over the years so many nationalities' spellings and pronunciations have undergone changes.

My comments don't address the mystery one bit, which is probably good.  I see Murthwaite as a bridge of sorts between the East and the West.  He has an understanding of both, and I find him to be an observer and facilitator rather than having any involvement, criminal or otherwise.

[JoanP]

Zulema, you say you went "way ahead" and you are in effect, telling us to take Murthwaite off the list of suspects...  I guess the question is, how far ahead have you read?

So Franklin has returned to London - has received word that his father has died.  He has a great deal of money, now - to pay outstanding debts.  I was pleased to read of his return to Yorkshire...and to find Betteredge living there - comfortably.  Together they will solve the mystery.  Wait, they need the detective - Cuff, who is now retired - tending to his roses!

[JoanK]

HI, ZULEMA. So glad you came in! Yes, what did you think of that scene when Collins was mingling the tragic and comic in Lady Verinders death? I thought it was masterful.

Hmmmm, JoanP. Lady verinder involved in removing the moonstone? I didn't think of that! I thought she was afraid Rachel did it, and didn't want to face it. What did you think?

But the new section starting today changes all our ideas about the mystery. Here is where PatH and I stopped the reading like the old Saturday serial movies that end with the hero tied up in the burning building and you have to wait til next week to see how he gets out. Don't cheat and read ahead before you have a chance to come in and guess how Coillins will resolve this.

[Zulema]

No, No, No!!  I didn't take Murthwaite off the suspects' list.  I just never saw him as one, not even a red herring, I'm just telling how I see him.  Everything I said is my view of these people, or rather my view of what Collins is doing as a writer. Murthwaite to me is an outlier who observes and listens because he speaks everyone's language.

[Frybabe]

I must say Mr. Bruff surprised me when in Chapter VI of Blake's narrative, he said, "Cool". I always thought that a modern expression.

A few paragraphs later he says, "...But women, as you may have observed, have no principles. My family don't feel my pangs of conscience. The end being to bring you and Rachel together again, my wife and daughters pass over the means employed to gain it, as composedly as if they were Jesuits." Mr. Bruff is showing his prejudices' here, both to women and to Jesuits (or more likely Catholics in general).

I thought Roseanna Spearman's suicide epistle way to lengthy. I admit to skimming over most of it. Pity, I had entertained the thought that her disappearance was meant to let people assume she committed suicide and that she was actually lurking backstage somewhere waiting to pop in again in the future.

[JoanP]

Hahaha, that's the difference between us, Zulema.  I haven't taken anyone off the list...except the real obvious ones - like Franklin and Rachel...

[BarbStAubrey]

haha even Catholics have a thing about Jesuits - Not sure I can figure out how far we should go - I am assuming we include the entire letter to Franklin but not sure after that how far we go. I hate this kindle in that it does not show page numbers.

I've read till he meets  Dr. Candy's assistant and still the mystery continues is spades - I see glimmers here and there of the reason for some behavior but by an large the whole thing is a conundrum

[PatH]

Barb, we go through Rosanna's letter, and on through Franklin Blake's interview with Rachel, and stop after he rushes out, overcome with emotion.