Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

January-February Book Club Online

Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell

Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece.  Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55.  Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain. The best-known of her remaining novels are Cranford (1853), North and South (1854), and Wives and Daughters (1865). She became popular for her writing, especially her ghost stories, aided by Charles Dickens, who published her work in his magazine Household Words. Her ghost stories are in the "Gothic" vein.

You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg

Discussion Schedule: Part 2   Jan. 13 - Feb.2              Jan. 13 - 19}         Chapter 11     Making Friendship           Chapter 12     Preparing For The Wedding         Chapter 13     Molly Gibson's New Friends         Chapter 14     Molly Finds Herself Patronized         Chapter 15     The New Mamma         Chapter 16     The Bride At Home         Chapter 17     Trouble At Hamley Hall           Jan. 20- 22}           Chapter 18     Mr. Osborne's Secret         Chapter 19     Cynthia's Arrival         Chapter 20     Mrs Gibson's Visitors

Some Things to Think About
Chapters XVIII-XX ~ January 20-22(to the end of Mrs. Gibson's Visitors)

Let's bring up any words or phrases throughout the book with which we are unfamiliar.

CHAPTER XVIII. Mr. Osborne's Secret
What are your impressions of Osborne in this chapter?
Did you guess Osborne's secret? We are not given any details. What are your thoughts about the situation?
What is the reaction of each of the Hamleys?
What are Molly's feelings in leaving Hamley Hall?
 
CHAPTER XIX. Cynthia's Arrival
We finally meet Cynthia. How would you describe her? What are some of the sentences said by herself or others about her that you found interesting or enlightening.
What do we learn about Cynthia's relationship with her mother? Do you think that Cynthia is like or unlike Clare?
Did you notice some "secrets" that are alluded to?

CHAPTER XX. Mrs. Gibson's Visitors
What do you make of the visit of Mr. Preston and the reactions of Clare and Cynthia?
What does Cynthia think of Osborne?
What is Osborne's reaction to Cynthia? What does Molly think about it?
What is Mr. Gibson's view of Cynthia?


 

DLs: Marcie,  Joanp,  Barb,  Pedln

[JoanK]

I am enjoying it, too. I keep comparing Gaskell to Jane Austen: they have the same way of tweaking you with little insights: but their insights are quite different. Gaskell, with her sensitivity to class differences sees things Austen never mentions.

[JoanP]

Molly Gibson reminds me a bit  of Jane Austen's Anne Elliot in Persuasion, Joan.  A younger, Anne, perhaps.  A heart of gold, ready to lend a hand whenever needed, even though her heart breaks at times. Not sure if anyone has captured Molly's heart, just yet.

[Jonathan]

Molly's heart?  Does she have one? Her emotional life is still subject to her 'little wavering maiden fancy.' Well, of course there is Osborne. And her father. Is she ever has to choose between the two...wow! Perhaps she will ask Clare for advice.

What an engrossing book. And I love all your livley comments. I'm willing to concede, Bellamarie, that I'm at a disadvantage at sorting out all these complex relationships. I find it an irony that the matchmakers are the Lord and the Squire.

Many good questions being asked. Like JoanP's: 'How did her father come to like Clare?'

Let me count the ways. There are so many complimentary comments scattered about the book regarding Clare's character:

1, 'so pretty and so graceful in her deep mourning' p14

2, with Clare, 'a running flow of easy talk came bubbling out all the time' p17

3, 'she is highly respected by Lord and Lady Cumnor'

4, 'she has very agreeable and polished manners' p114

5, 'with all her winning wiles' p127

6,  'I long to be making you happy' (spoken to her prospective husband)

7, 'her elegance of appearance and manner and her accomplishments' p128

8, she's 'good at steering conversation'

9, she's adept at not allowing her scruples to get in her way in going after what she wants. It's important to note that she have scurples.

I just can't see her as frivolous and flimsy. I am surprised at her being lead astray by her wishful thinking. 'She hoped that Mr Gibson's ardour would be such that he that he would press on the marriage, and urge her never to resume her school drudgery.... She seeks release from the thraldom of keeping school.'

Gibson's ardour? That was exhausted years ago, when he was in love with 'poor Jeanie, not so old, (as Molly), and how I did love her'. p48

Cynthia doesn't miss much by not being at the wedding, does she. I get the feeling that the wedding was more rigmarole that the author wanted to get beyond.

'The squire was not unwise in wishing her well out of the house before Osborne came home, if he was considering her peace of mind.'

I like the insight in that, Bellamarie. Good quote.

[Jonathan]

It's interesting to read that there were taxes on schools, such as Clare was running. Was the school set up for her by Lord Cumnor? She must have been poorly off after her husband died. Her governess days were long passed. She was the wife of Rev Kirkpatrick for at least eighteen years. Cynthia's lifetime, plus.

[pedln]

She was the wife of Rev Kirkpatrick for at least eighteen years. Cynthia's lifetime, plus.

18 years married?  Jonathan, you are posing math problems for me. For a book that is so filled with details I find that Mrs. Gaskell has still left much for the reader to discern.  I’ve been thinking all along that Cynthia was a small child when Mr. K died, and that Clare became a governess after his death. (But what did she do with Cynthia while she was a governess) But a brief rereading shows a reference made by a Cumnor about him dying after Clare left (the Cumnor employ.)  I’m a wee bit confused about some of the details.  I think she stopped being a governess when she got married.  She liked being a lady, and putting her feet up, and did not return to working until after his death. 

But she is having a rather rough time financially, taxes included. I guess if there’s earned income, there will be a tax. Unfortunately, not enough earned income. She really needs a husband, the quicker, the better.

I love the list of pros for Clare.  No doubt many of them carry a “ , but.   .   .”

Okay, so it seems that most of us here realize that Clare blows hot and cold, depending on what is best for her. And Gibson’s main concern (and reason for the marriage?) is Molly.  And Molly is wonderng how the devil did these two ever decide to get married.  Do they or did they even really know each other.

Bellamarie, I am so enjoying the character of Lady Cumnor, who, as you have pointed out, seems to enjoy torturing Clare. And, as the lady herself has said, “you have your work cutout for you, Clare, “ I think she finds Molly to be a breath of fresh air.

Joans P&K, it’s good to have your comments about similarities and differences between Jane Austen and Mrs. Gaskell.

Someone has said that there wasn’t much of a to-do about the wedding.  It came and was done.  But lots of preparations, and we get to know the Brownings a little better.  Poor Phoebe.  She almost had the hopes raised.

[bellamarie]

Yes, the wedding will take place.  But for the life of me I can't understand why?  All red flags are waving....STOP!!! 

JoanP., I have not gotten to Coxe having to leave.  I didn't sense he would be much a part of Molly's life at the present time, with dear Osborne now home. Who knows, he may return later, an accomplished doctor, and she may see him differently, and learn of his letter, where he professed his love for her, once she gets beyond her admiration, and infatuation with HERO Osborne. At some point, Molly has to learn, she was sent away from her home, and this entire marriage was decided by her father, after intercepting Coxe's letter. Oh dear, I fear I am trying to write Gaskell's ending.   

Lucy, I agree, and Gibson has to be wondering about Clare's character, since he knows from their first meeting, she was not forthcoming about the letter suggesting they marry, then she does not want her own daughter Cynthia at their wedding. Gibson adores his daughter, and is willing to take a second wife, for the protection of his dear daughter, Molly. Gibson knows his daughter, he has to see how difficult it is for her, and the fact neither Clare nor Molly wanted to even spend time together before the wedding, has to make him aware of both their feelings.  He must feel it's his only choice to go through with this wedding, regardless of seeing all the red flags, we readers are seeing.  And now Coxe will be gone? Oh my, sacrificing his and Molly's relationship and peacefulness, all for nought.  But then as JoanP., pointed out, there would be no story.

Jonathon, I do believe you are truly smitten with Clare.  No tongue in cheek what so ever.  I like seeing a guy's perspective where Clare is concerned. 

After reading Jane Austen's books, I fear she has spoiled me for life, and every 18th-19th Century story taking place in England has me feeling the spirit of Austen in them.  Austen and Gaskell, do manage to throw in the humor for their readers. 

No frills and thrills as far as the wedding is concerned.  If anything I was a bit let down and disappointed, such a special occasion, and yet nothing to describe the ceremony, dresses, reactions, celebration, etc.  I am a romantic at heart and looked forward to descriptive here.

Yes, we did get to learn more about the Browning sisters, and Lady Harriet.  I loved this"
pg. 214  Molly, "I shall come some day soon, and bring you a load of Miss Edgeworth's tales, and make further acquaintance with Pecksy and Flapsy." 

"No, don't please," said Molly, taking hold of her, to detain her.  "You must not come__indeed you must not."

"Why not?"

"Because I would rather not__because I think that I ought not to have any one coming to see me who laughs at the friends I am staying with, and calls them names,"  Molly's heart beat very fast, but she meant every word that she said.

WOW!  Miss Molly sure does have the stamina and good sense to speak up to those, when she feels the need to.  And to think Clare and Harriet were, and are still, close friends.  Hmmmm.....Birds of a feather, flock together. 

Ciao for now~

[Lucylibr]

BellaMarie: I agree that the marriage would not have taken place if Coxe had left earlier. The motive for the marriage is to protect Molly, and it is not a good enough reason and should not have been the only remedy available to him. It's rather too late to shield Molly because it is time for her to be entering society with a view to learning what kind of a future she wants and choosing an appropriate husband, if you could call it "choosing," when so many unions were motivated by convenience and economic advantage.  In Victorian society the options are limited, and it's almost certain she will marry and raise a family. Didn't people marry quite young at that time simply because lifespan wasn't as long and most people did not seek advanced aducatiuon?

At some point earlier in the novel Clare's charcter is described as :"flimsy."  Sorry I do not have a page reference. I think the narrator says it and not Mr. Gibson.

[bellamarie]

Chapter 16  The Bride at Home

Oh my heavens, could any woman be more self absorbed than Miss Dragon lady herself, Clare.  My heart is so hurting for poor Molly.  She has been forced to call this horrible woman "Mama" which is an endearment ONLY meant for your mother, or someone you feel as loving to replace her, in this case Molly does NOT want to replace her mother, nor does she wish to use this endearment with the dragon lady. I am so disappointed in Gibson, for dismissing his daughter's feelings.

Now, Clare has insulted and injured the dear old squire, and has been completely uncaring of Mrs. Hamley's health, and request to have Molly come at once.  Then she turns around and blames Molly for HER rudeness.  Seems Clare has got her sights on either Molly or Cynthia to be married to Osborne, for the estate to be left to him.  She sure did monopolize Osborne, when he came to visit.  Center of attention is her intent.  I am so sad, she has redecorated Molly's room and taken away all of her mementos of her mother's.  This entire chapter has truly upset me.  She is clearly jealous that Molly even so much as got any attention from Lady Harriet.  And for her to reveal the fact she was aware of the name calling of the Browning sisters, and went along with it sure did show her true colors.  I can only imagine how much worse everything is going to get once Cynthia comes home. 

So this chapter ends with Molly crying in her room.  I want to cry with her. 

Lucy, We are thinking alike, I too was wondering why Mr. Gibson is so ready to protect Molly from Coxe, when she is seventeen.  I thought as you did, they married very young back in those days, so this entire calamity, could have been avoided if he had let Molly decide for herself in the letter matter.  Yes, she is immature and not worldly, due to no governess, or mother, but at this rate even with Clare as her stepmother she is not allowing her to make decisions of her own. 

There have been many positive words to describe Clare, as well as many negative words to describe her, by the author and characters in the story,  but I think the readers can deduce for themselves what kind of person Clare truly is.  I can almost see Molly choosing to stay away from her home as much as possible, just to avoid this horrible woman.  She could care less if her husband eats or not, and he has no backbone to speak up for anything.  Ughhh......this chapter has left me so frustrated!!!

Ciao for now~

[pedln]

Am getting ready to walk out the door for multiple errands, but wanted to remark on Lucy's comment about "flimsy."  The quote is from Chpt. 12, p. 168, the narrator's assessment right after Mr. Gibson has given Clare 15 pounds to pay for Cynthia's trip home for the wedding.

Whatever other faults might arise from her superficial and flimsy character, she was always uneasy till she was out of debt. Yet she had no scruple in appropriating her future husband's money to her own use, when it was decided that it was not to be employed as he intended.

[Lucylibr]

Thanks, Pedln, for identifying the quote.  I am reading a Kindle edition and some on the subway where it is difficult to take notes,

[JoanK]

The notes and marks option on the kindle is very useful, but if I forget to mark something when I read it, I'm lost, and I forgot to mark the passage I wanted to talk about.

When Molly arrives for the wedding, and meets the man whose house they're staying at, Gaskell remarks that he greeted her with the flirtatious manner some men think they have to use to any woman under 25.

Some things never change. We all recognize what she means. And add to it that some men think they have to use that manner with any senior woman they meet.

They probably assume that these women are flattered. And too stupid to realize that that guarantees that nothing the women say or do will be listened to, or taken seriously.

[Jonathan]

I think the evidence is lacking that would show Clare's character as 'superficial and flimsy'. In the same breath the author points to 'one of the few points to be respected in Mrs Kirkpatrick'...her determination to stay out of debt.

Spare a tear for Clare, Bellemarie. She has lived through many trials. What she hasn't endured in her lifetime...'and her liking for Mr Gibson grew in proportion to her sense of the evils from which he was going to serve as a means of escape.'

I find the narrator's comments prejudiced and gratuitous. And she seems genuinely surprised herself at what she is imagining. But it's all very clever and humorous.

Chapter 12 begins with: Meanwhile the love-affairs between the middle-aged couple were prospering well, after a fashion; after the fashion that they liked best, although it might probably have appeared dull and prosaic to younger people.'

And how do the matchmakers feel? Squire Hamley feels very sorry as he sees Molly's misery. Sorry that he had played the role of prophet: 'Pon my word, now, I wish I'd never spoken those unlucky words that first day at dinner...I must take more care what I say for the future.'

Lord Cumnor is in great glee. 'I told you so. Now didn't I say what a good, suitable thing this affair between Gibson and Clare would be! I don't know when I have been so much pleased.'

Molly and Clare are fellow sufferers. Molly, thinking about Roger's advice to care about others, concludes: 'It will be very dull when I shall have killed myself, as it were, and live only in trying to do, and to be, as other people like. I don't see any end to it. I might as well never have lived.'

And a few pages along, in the next chapter (12), Clare mulling over her fate in life, thinks: 'Indeed, many a little circumstance of former subjection to the will of others rose up before her during these quiet hours, as an endurance of a suffering never to occur again...and her liking for Mr Gibson grew up in proportion to her sense of the evils from which he was going to serve as a means of escape.'

Surely Mr Gibson has enough of whatever to keep or make both wife and daughter happy. What a challenge!

[JoanP]

"I find the narrator's comments prejudiced and gratuitous. And she seems genuinely surprised herself at what she is imagining. But it's all very clever and humorous."

What Ho, Jonathan - you have outdone yourself with that observation!  Do you not see the narrator as the author, Eliz. Gaskell, the creator of this character we persist in calling Clare, despite her repeated preference for Hyacinth?

OK, will try to be fair to Hyacinth. Although she confides that she  is " weary of girls as a class (?) - had hoped her only child would have been a boy ( a possible baronet someday) - she does say she will try to be as kind as she can to her new stepdaughter.  Didn't we hear Molly say the same thing?  Maybe things will work out for them after all by the end of the tale after all.  I don't see Mrs. Gaskell writing a dark tale - don't see her inflicting pain and suffering on Molly - even if things do not go her way?

But that cheese will have to go!

[JoanP]

Mr. Coxe might be gone, but suddenly Molly is surrounded by "new friends."  - Are they admirers as Mr. Coxe had been?
Does anyone have a footnote on the growing intimacy between Roger and Molly - and the Squire's fear that she will regard him a Pope?  How did you understand that?

It's clear that Mrs. Gaskell is portraying Mr. Preston as an oily character, to be avoided. Nothing to fear here - it's obvious he's only interested in Cynthia.  She seems to be an intimidating character. Hope she isn't unkind to her new stepsister.

I'm going to guess Mrs. Gaskell will align the two girls against Clare Hyacinth.  Maybe Jonathan is right after all...

[pedln]

JoanK,  Amen. Truer words were never spoken.  Men like Mr. Preston have been around since cavemen times and no doubt will continue into perpetuity.

Yesterday I was complaining about math problems and am still wondering how things are set up, moneywise.   Clare gets 30 pounds a year from the estate of her late husband.  So now Mr. Gibson has control over that and he has relinquished it to Cynthia. “ He himself had lived carefully, and had a few thousands well invested; besides which, his professional income was good, and increasing rather than diminishing every year.”  For her trousseau, Lord Cumnor has given Clare 100 pounds and in addition is supplying the wedding breakfast.  And Mr. Gibson has given the Brownings 100 pounds for sprucing up the Gibson residence.  I wonder how Clare feels about that. All in all, the Gibson family is not rich, but comfortable.

Little has been said here about the Hamley boys and Molly, but Gaskell has this to say about Roger’s effect on Molly.  And it appears, Miss Browning also had things to say, not fully appreciated by Molly.

Every young girl of seventeen or so, who is at all thoughtful, is very apt to make a Pope out of the first person who presents to her a new or larger system of duty than that by which she has been unconsciously guided hitherto. Such a Pope was Roger to Molly; she looked to his opinion, to his authority on almost every subject.  p.176.

Did people from the town of Hollingford come to the wedding, I wonder.  They would have had to travel 18 miles to get to Ashcombe, so probably not.


Bellamarie and JoanP, are you both saying that young Coxe was the catalyst for this marriage?  The words of the older gentlemen had no effect?

Surely Mr Gibson has enough of whatever to keep or make both wife and daughter happy. What a challenge!

A good match, Jonathan?

Remember the plaid silk dress that Molly bought to take to her first visit to the Hamleys?  Last night I started watching the tapes from the library, and that dress is just as awful as Mrs. Hamley said it was. (The film is okay, but leaves much to be desired, like Mrs. Gaskell's words.)

"Anything but that horrid plaid silk" was the thought in Mrs. Hamley's mind;

JoanP, we were posting at about the same time.  I don't think Mr. Hamley was worried about Roger and Molly as much as he was Osborne and Molly.  He was always stating that Roger knew it would be years before he could get married.

[bellamarie]

Jonathon, I am a few chapters ahead of you, so let me assure you, Clare shows her true colors to everyone.  The only tears I shed are for poor Molly, who has to spend so much time with this woman, who has two faces...one for private and one for public.  She is like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.  I don't think for a minute Clare or Molly were going to be able to stand by their pledge to try to like each other.  If they did, they both would have been receptive to spending the time together at Ashcombe, before the nuptials.

JoanP., I would like to think Cynthia and Molly hit it off, and align together against Clare, but if anything I am worried Cynthia may be a bit like her mother.....the apples don't fall too far from the tree.  The only information we have so far about Cynthia is mostly from Preston, and we know he is truly smitten with her.  And he is a weird bird for sure.

I will always call her Clare, because even though she wishes it to be different, she remains the same.  So far, NO ONE has used Hyacinth, and I am up to chapter 16.  

The next chapters do show how Clare and Lady Harriet are cruel and demeaning to others, and have no problem with it.  Imagine that, considering Clare was Lady Harriet's governess and would have been a big influence in her life, and they have remained friends.  She sure got prickly and jealous when she learns Lady Harriet gives Molly attention, while she is away on her honeymoon.  

pedln., Yes, I do believe if it were not for Gibson's fear of Coxe pursuing Molly, he would never have thought about remarrying. The words of the older gentlemen, pointed him in the direction of Clare.  And oh how the squire is regretting that!   I agree, the Gibson family is not wealthy, and at the rate Clare is spending his money, he will be in the poor house before you know it.  

Ciao for now~

[pedln]

JoanP, you were quite right.  Mr. Hamley had concerns with both the boys being home when Molly was there.

" It's as well the lads are at Cambridge; we might have been having a love-affair if they had been at home."  

Mr. Hamley speaking when he first heard of Molly’s visit.

It would never do for him to fall in love with Gibson's daughter— I shouldn't allow it. So it's as well he's out of the way."

Mr. Hamley speaking of Osborne

He mustn't think of falling in love for these ten years."

Hamley, speaking of Roger

And then, when Hamley learned that Mrs. H had invited Molly to stay for TWO MONTHS --

All I know is, that it's a very dangerous thing to shut two young men of one and three and twenty up in a country-house like this with a girl of seventeen— choose what her gowns may be like, or her hair, or her eyes.  

And he is ready to say something to Gibson, but Mrs. H begs him not to and he does as she wishes.  She tries to convince her husband that Molly is NOT the sort of girl young men fall in love with.

Jonathan, Mr Hamley does seem to be a kind and practical man, doesn’t he, with hs sympathy for Molly’s distress about the marriage.  Not that Lord Cumnor isn’t  kind also, but really doesn’t know the impact for Molly.

Bellamarie, I tend to agree with you about Clare. She is a manipulator and what bothers me most is that she lays her blame or misfortune on others -- more of that coming up, I'm sure.

So the wedding is over, the bridge and groom are home.  Is everybody happy?  And let's not forget Lady Harriet, one of Molly's new friends.

[bellamarie]

pedln, Yes indeed, the wedding is over and so is the honeymoon, now the dragon lady is home and is in full swing!! 

This book just took a terrible turn from fun and funny, to just sad and sadistic.  Chapters 16 & 17, Clare is more than I can stand. I grew up with a stepfather from the age of two yrs. old until they divorced, when I was eighteen, he was controlling, and ridiculed me, my brother and five sisters. I suppose a widow of seven small children NEEDED to remarry, to get help with raising her children back in 1954. He had to have everything HIS way, to the point my mother had little say in any matter.  Our food served was to be to HIS liking, his timing, regardless if we liked it or not.  Our favorite food such as spaghetti was NOT to be served to HIM. We were of Italian descent, and he said it was for dumb dagos. He was from the south and so it was fried chicken, mashed potatoes, gravy and pork chops.  To this day I HATE pork chops! My mother grew withdrawn and silent, just to keep the peace and keep him happy, much like Gibson is doing.  As a child I would cry myself to sleep, like Molly.  My mother said I must respect him as my father.  Hmmmm...like that was going to happen, not one of us children called him by any fatherly endearing name, he was always, "Bob" and I sense even though Molly calls Clare, "Mama," she is feeling Clare inside. 

I think I am a bit ahead for this week's chapters, so I will reserve commenting any further until I see others have caught up.

Ciao for now~

[JoanK]

I may be a bit ahead, too, since my copy doesn't have chapter numbers. But your remark about not being allowed to eat spaghetti sounds just like Clare not allowing poor Doctor Gibson to eat cheese, presumably because it's "common".

[Jonathan]

'from fun and funny to sad and sadistic'

It could turn into a sad tale. There must be many for whom stepmothers and stepfathers bring back painful memories. Did it take courage on Mrs Gaskell's part to take on such a subject? Doris Goodwin in her new book, The Bully Pulpit, quotes Alice Roosevelt Longworth on her memories of adjusting to life with her 'new mother': 'It was awfully bad psychologically.' p129

Take a break, Bellamarie. And come back to the fun. Of course the Squire doesn't want his sons to fall in love with Molly. He himself is charmed by the lively, honest teenager.

We need the Prestons of the world. If only to bring out the strange character of people like Harriet, the Earl's daughter. She doesn't want his admiration. She wants his respect! And she loves Mollys familiarity! She's human after all.

I'm not giving up on Clare. She seems to be walking into a difficult relationship with her eyes closed. I still like her. In fact I was going to suggest that we start referring to her as HY!!!

[pedln]

Well, it's easier to type than Hyacinth!

[JoanK]

Hi, Hy! High five!

[pedln]

Bellamarie, thank you for sharing and being so candid. As you know, you are not alone in your feelings about Clare/HY.  She is a selfish woman and one wonders what brought her to that. Before her first marriage she had a good job as a governess with a family that liked and appreciated her. Her first marriage supposedly brought comfort, as did her child. (By the way, the tape said Mr. K died when Cynthia was four. I’ve never seen that in the book.) The Cumnors have gone out of their way to ease her life as a widow.  So why does she focus everything on herself?

I’m thinking about the bedroom makeovers she plans for Cynthia and Molly, to which Molly objected. Can’t find the exact quote – “But it will reflect badly on me if Cynthia’s room is done over and yours is not.”

Good point about the cheese, JoanK.  And we know there are other changes coming as well.

Jonathan, do you think that Lady Harriet’s dislike of Preston is only because he hasn’t shown her proper respect?  Of course “proper respect” isn't really defined here.

When he had left the room, Lady Harriet said,—" I daresay it's my own lazy selfishness has kept you indoors all day against your will. But, at any rate, you are not to go out walking with that man. I've an instinctive aversion to him; not entirely instinctive either; it has some foundation in fact; and I desire you don't allow him ever to get intimate with you. He's a very clever land-agent, and does his duty by papa, and I don't choose to be taken up for libel; but remember what I say!"

What has happened in the past?  One thinks that Preston surely wouldn’t be so stupid as to make a pass at one of Lord Cumnor’s family, but one wonders.

A lot seems to be happening all at once.  Do you wonder at the time span of the story?  Weeks?  Months?

Molly becomes privy to Osborne’s secret, and what a burden it places on her.

And Cynthia arrives.  Was this Cynthia’s decision or did her mother  request it?

Do you think the girls will become close?  Do you like Cynthia?

[JoanP]

Can you take a minute to post about the edition you are reading?  We thought by including the chapter numbers AND the titles Mrs. Gaskell assigned to each chapter and put this information in the discussion schedule at the start of each page of posts, we'd eliminate confusion.  
Now it is becoming clear that some of you have no numbers - or titles.  What to do?  Any suggestions? We will  have to think of something to avoid spoilers in the upcoming chapters.

For now, know that we will be discussing Up to Chapter 17 through tomorrow.  That means we will begin Chapter 18 on Monday- Mr. Osborne's Secret, in which Molly returns to the Hall - Roger and Osborne return too after receiving word of mother's worsening condition, Chapter 19, Cynthia's Arrival on the scene for the first time  and then the next Chapter 20 - Mrs. Gibson's Visitors.

  Those of you with no Chapter markers, can you think of ways that might help you keep track of where we are in the schedule?

[JoanK]

The questions help. If something hasn't been mentioned in a question, I assume we haven't gotten to it.

[JoanP]

Thanks, JoanK -

Don't you love the way  the new stepmaman makes changes for Molly under the guise of being fair to her, not showing favoritism to her own daughter?Molly is dismayed to find her bedroom "done up" - her old familiar bedroom furnishings gone. I was relieved to see they were put into storage, not discarded. Hope that means she will have them back at some time in the future. (This happened to me too - changes that came with new "mamma."  All childhood toys - dolls, dollhouse, puppets 1 given away.  Dog had to go- allergies - etc.etc.)

Molly makes it clear that she is relieved to go back to the Hamleys.  I'll bet she is!  Problems there too with Osborne's failure.  Is this why the Squire is angry and Mrs. Hamley is ill? Because Osborne failed to make the grade - and they had both believed he had a bright future?
I feel a bit sorry for him.

As the mother of four boys, I admit I squirmed to read Mrs. Hamley's words..."a mother does not know boys."  Do you believe this?  Did Mrs. Gaskell?

[bellamarie]

Okay seems like we have all caught up with each other, since we are discussing Molly's room makeover, Osborne's secret, and Mrs. Hamley being ill.

As for Molly's room being entirely made over, I just shivered at Clare's insensitivity to Molly requesting, almost begging for her to please leave her room as it is, since it is her Mother's things that have brought her comfort.  Although Clare uses the argument, that it would look like she favored her daughter, Clare is concerned, what others think of her, this more important than Molly's comfort.
pg.  234 "Are you going to new-furnish that room?"  said Molly, in astonishment at the never ending changes.

"Yes; and yours too, darling; so don't be jealous."

"Oh please, mama, not mine," said Molly, taking in the idea for the first time.

"Yes dear!  You shall have yours done as well.  A little French bed, and a new paper, and a pretty carpet, and a dressed-up toilet- table and glass will make it look quite a different place."

"But I don't want it to look different.  I like it as it is.  Pray don't do anything to it."

"What nonsense, child!  I never heard anything more ridiculous!  Most girls would be glad to get rid of the furniture only fit for the lumber room."

"It was my own mamma's before she was married."  said Molly, in a very low voice; bringing out this last plea unwillingly, but with certainty that it would not be resisted.

Mrs. Gibson paused for a moment before she replied:  "It's very much to your credit that you should have such feelings, I'm sure.  But don't you think sentiment may be carried too far?  Why, we should have no new furniture at all, and should have to put up with worm-eaten horrors.  Besides my dear, Hollingford will seem very dull to Cynthia, after pretty, gay France, and I want to make the first impression attractive.  I've no notion I can settle her down near here; and I want her to come in a good temper; for, between ourselves, my dear, she is a little leetle wilful.  You need not mention this to your papa."

"But can't you do Cynthia's room, and not mine?  Please let mine alone."

"No, indeed!  I couldn't agree to that.  Only think what would be said of me by everybody; petting my own child and neglecting my husband's!  I couldn't bear it."

"No one need know."

"In such a tittle-tattle place as Hollingford!  Really, Molly, you either are very stupid or very obstinate, or else you don't care what hard things may be said about me; and for all for a selfish fancy of your own!  No!  I owe myself the justice of acting in this matter as I please.  Everyone shall know I'm not a common step-mother.  Every penny I spend on Cynthia I shall spend on you too; so it's no use talking any more about it."

Why did she have to remove EVERYTHING from the room? So, JoanP., you can relate to this.  A girl is sentimental, she needs her "things" around her for comfort at any age.  Clare seems to NOT have a sentimental bone in her body.  Good question....what has happened in Clare's life to make her this way?


I was happy Molly got to go back to the Hamley's, only I sense her heart is going to be heavy having to keep Osborne's secret of squandering the family money, and I fear poor Mrs. Hamley may die.  I hope I am wrong.  What did Osborne spend so much money on?  Was he gambling possibly?   JoanP., I don't feel sorry for Osborne, because he was spending the family money, and being irresponsible causing his grades to fall, resulting in failing out of college.  He sure does seem like the true Prodigal Son from scripture, only this father is not welcoming him back with open arms.  NO fatted calf for him, if anything the squire decided to drink Osborne's favorite wine, he had been saving for just him.  The squire is furious, he is going to have to sell off land to keep the house going.  Molly sure is seeing her hero image of him, fading fast.

Lady Harriet, sure did warn Molly in no uncertain terms, to NEVER go walking with Mr. Preston.  I did get the feeling he has been inappropriate with possibly Harriet as a child, or others.  Yet, why when Molly told Preston that Cynthia would be living with them, he questioned it as though he was surprised, thinking she would be living in Ashcombe.  Did Clare send Cynthia away, to get her away from Preston?

JoanP., I have two sons and we are so very close.  I feel I know them inside and out.  They are married and have children of their own, and still will come to me for advice. So I didn't understand when Clare said,  .."a mother does not know boys."

I am not to the chapter where Cynthia has come home.  I ended with Chapter 17 Trouble at Hamley Hall.  (My book has chapters and titles.)  But from Clare's own words, " I've no notion I can settle her down near here; and I want her to come in a good temper; for, between ourselves, my dear, she is a little leetle wilful.  You need not mention this to your papa."

I fear Cynthia will not be an easy person to deal with. Like I said before, the apple does not fall far from the tree!  I sense Cynthia may be spoiled, and not nearly as generous in wanting to be friends with Molly, as Molly is hoping to be with her.

Ciao for now~

[pedln]

This is a book with so many chapters, and a story that has so many things happening in each chapter, I think we’re doing pretty well to staying on schedule and everyone is doing a fabulous job of assessing the characters and their relationships with one another.

I find Chapter XVII, Trouble at Hamley Hall, a difficult chapter, quite different from those previous. Our narrator has a lot more to say than do the characters themselves. And surprisingly, long speeches by Mrs Hamley to Molly, informing her of all the financial woes that Osborne has brought to Hamley Hall.  I think that Molly’s responses are more to placate Mrs. Hamley, to soothe her, more than anything she really knows.  Is she truly good, or merely naïve?

[bellamarie]

Good morning all!

pedln, I so agree with you about chapter 17 Trouble at Hamley Hall.  I read chapters 15, 16 and 17 all at one sitting, and by the time I finished I felt a bit overwhelmed.  You have Molly and Clare in conflict over her room changes, then so much is revealed in chapter 17, I was ready to take a break to try to process it all.  Lots of emotions in these chapters.

I feel Molly is both, good and naive.  Yes, she is trying to soothe Mrs. Hamley, she is concerned, she will die.  Molly also is struggling with her shattered impressions of Osborne being the perfect son, poet, hero.  She realizes he has proved to be very selfish, reckless and uncaring of what his actions have done to his family.  The squire is not only upset for the undue stress Osborne has financially put on the family, but that he has failed out of college, and was expected to take over Hamley Hall, and that he has caused undue stress on Mrs. Hamley, resulting in her failing health.  Osbrne is in a boatload of trouble at this point.

Do you suppose Gaskell has a moral here, teaching the readers about placing too much importance, favoritism and responsibility on one son, over the other.  I know the eldest son is to be the one who would take over at the helm, when the father no long can, but these parents seemed to expect and brag incessantly about Osborne, with little kindness to Roger.  So who thinks Roger may be the one who swoops in to selvedge this family?  Imagine that!

Ciao for now~

p.s. Anyone else having problems with the spell check?  When I try to use it nothing happens, so forgive any misspelled words. 

[JoanP]

I think we need to get into the mindset of the period.

 I don't think Mrs. Gaskell is expressing a moral here - The inequity of the first-born inheriting the estate is not a matter of favoritism, but rather a well-established and accepted custom in England.  Primogeniture is the right, by law or custom, of the firstborn son to inherit the family estate.  Recently this has been changed to "firstborn child," so firstborn daughters  can also inherit the estate now.  William will be the future king of England- simply because he was born before Harry.  And the second, third, fourth sons?  They either went into the clergy or learned some sort of trade - such as?  I'm wondering what Roger will do with his education, aren't you?  

Here's an interesting article about the recent change in Primogeniture...the viewpoint of the owner of Downton Abbey - who expresses concern that this change in Primogeniture will lead to the eradication of the laws altogether -
    "The 8th Earl of Carnarvon owns Highclere Castle - the setting for Downton
    Fears changes in the law of royal succession, allowing first-born daughters to accede to the throne, could put estates across the country in jeopardy
    Move could be a step towards French Napoleonic Code - which allows property to be split equally among offspring, he says
    Pressure group says changes to current 'unfair' system are necessary for certain estates to stay within the family."
Changing inheritance laws
 

[JoanP]

Mr. Hamley feels doctors are quacks.  He is probably expressing what many feel at this time...although he seems to repect Dr. Gibson.  Does he believe him when he says Mrs. H is near death?  Dr. Gibson is so convinced he sends for Osborne and Roger to be with her.
Where is Osborne?  Is he still a student in Cambridge - or has he been plucked?  Is Mr. Hamley still sending him his Cambridege allowance?  Where is Osborne spending it?  Gambling?  Mr. Hamley is struggling to pay his bills - has to sell timber from the land to pay Osborne's bills.  No wonder he's so angry at the situation.

A good question - is Molly just saying these things to ease Mrs. Hamley's mind about her Osborne, or does she really believe that there is an explanation somewhere?  Mrs. H knows about the failure at Cambridge...does she know of Osborne's debts?

So, the doctor has sent for both sons, Osborne has been banned from the house until he pays his debts (?)...  How will Mr. Hamley react when they show up at his door?  My bet - he'll accept Osborne for his  mother's sake.  Hopefully we will learn more in the coming chapters.

Bella - I used spell check just now - the only thing that showed up was Hamley as being mispelled.  Maybe nothing happened when you tried it because you hadn't misspelled anything?

[pedln]

Roger knows where Osborne is, but he's not talking.  I think what's really sad, as Bellamarie has mentioned,  is that the Squire holds Osborne responsible for Mrs Hamley's failing health.

And here's Clare, expecting Molly to go to a dance with her.  In fact, she's called Molly home from the Hamleys just for this purpose.  And of course Molly protests and for once her father intervenes in her favor, but letting it be known that he doesnt' want to get involved in these mother/daughter tete-a-tetes.

That is an interesting article, JoanP, but I must admit I’ve never understood the rules of  primogenture, and still don’t.  Especially in the case of something like Downton Abbey where the next heir is from a never-met distant branch of the family.  Does this apply to all Britons or only those families with historic homes?  If someone buys a house and doesn’t sell it before he dies, must it go to his oldest son?  Can a husband and wife own property together?

My second question would be What would be the loss or disadvantage if the laws were changed and some of the estates sold or broken up?

[bellamarie]

JoanP.,

" I don't think Mrs. Gaskell is expressing a moral here - The inequity of the first-born inheriting the estate is not a matter of favoritism, but rather a well-established and accepted custom in England."

I think you may have misunderstood my reason for feeling there may be a moral here, about showing favoritism.  I was not referring to Osborne inheriting the estate. I was aware of,

"Primogeniture is the right, by law or custom, of the firstborn son to inherit the family estate."

I was referring to ALL the compliments, bragging and praise Mrs. Hamley and the squire had for Osborne in comparison to Roger.  Because of their favoritism shown IN WORDS, and description, before they knew of Osborne failing out of college, and squandering the family money, I personally felt he was the favored son. They did not have the same praise or feelings about Roger.  Molly got the idea Osborn was the perfect son/hero, from the picture and words of Mrs. Hamley, and the squire, without ever meeting Osborne.  If anything, I thought Molly actually spoke up in Roger's defense, when she told Mrs. Hamley about Roger helping her with his advice, and Mrs. Hamley made a statement about Osborne is the more gentle one, as if Roger is not capable of helping Molly, and Molly spoke up and said, "I like roughness."

For ME, the moral is....don't favor one son above the other.  Keep them equal in your thoughts, praise and feelings. (Regardless which position the elder will assume)   I have two sons who are 2 yrs. apart in age, so when the younger son had the same 6th grade teacher as his brother had 2 yrs prior, that teacher compared them and favored my oldest son, she told me Mike was more apt to be a success, where Jeremy would have problems in jobs because he was a bit rough.  I told her, I beg to differ with her, and that my two sons are very different in personalities, style and speech, but they will both be successful in life, because they know their parents love them, encourage them and support them equally.  I can say with pride today....both sons ARE a success, and best friends to each other.  And when I saw this teacher years later she asked about my two sons and smiled, when I said how successful BOTH boys are.

I have followed Prince William & Harry since their births, and the reason why those two men are best friends today, is because their parents did not show favoritism, even though William will assume the throne and be King, before Harry.  So, I personally, do see Gaskell giving her readers a moral to learn here.

JoanP.,

Mr. Hamley feels doctors are quacks.  He is probably expressing what many feel at this time...although he seems to repect Dr. Gibson

.

I didn't feel Mr. Hamley really thought, all doctors are quacks.  I felt he was upset hearing what Gibson was telling him, about Mrs. Hamley's failing health, and he did not want to accept it, so he was striking out at doctors in general.  He knew in his heart, what Gibson was saying was true, and when Gibson suggested getting the second opinion, I felt Mr. Hamley KNEW, the second opinion would be the same, so he says, "all doctors are quacks."  He does respect Gibson, and he knows inside he is going to lose Mrs. Hamley, from what Gibson is saying, and how Mrs. Hamley's health has failed, since the news of Osborne's failing out of college, and spending the family money.  Hence, she can not deal with the let down of her favorite son.  Her world has come crashing down, as has the squire's.  They had built Osborne up to be the perfect son, the intellect, the success, the hero! (And yes, the one to inherit Hamley Hall) Now their reality is, he is not perfect, like Roger, Osborne has flaws, and they have to be thinking Osborne can't be trusted to make good financial decisions in the position in taking over Hamley Hall, considering his squandering the family money.  Something they could never see before this.

I am off to read this week's chapters.  I pray Mrs. Hamley will make a recovery, but it is not looking good at this point.

Ciao for now~

p.s.  Not sure why, but I tried spell check again and it still is not working for me.  It shows a word highlighted, and I click "ignore" it will not respond.  It's been like this for me for a couple of days now.  

[marcie]

A good question - is Molly just saying these things to ease Mrs. Hamley's mind about her Osborne, or does she really believe that there is an explanation somewhere?  Mrs. H knows about the failure at Cambridge...does she know of Osborne's debts?

Some of you have mentioned that Jane Austen keeps running through your minds as you read parts of this book. From time to time I think that Molly is a cross between Jane and Elizabeth in Pride and Prejudice. The eldest sister, Jane, can't see the bad in anyone. She always sees only the good. Molly has idealized/idolized Osborne (because of how his mother has always characterized him). In Chapter 17, she takes his side when Mrs. Hamley is trying to explain why Mr. Hamley is so upset, mostly with the unexplained debts. Molly tells Mrs. H that it must be that Osborne was swindled out of the money. When Mrs. H says that would make him weak rather than wicked, Molly (not very rational when it comes to her view of the as-yet-unmet Osborne) says she doesn't think him weak because of how clever he really is. "Besides, I would rather he was weak than wicked."

I think Molly sometimes shows her outspoken "Elizabeth" side as when she spoke up to Harriet for the Browning sisters.

[marcie]

Bellamarie, when you click IGNORE, spellcheck should highlight the next questionable word, if there are any. When all words are checked, you should get a message that says "SPELL CHECK COMPLETE." Is it just "stalling" for you after you click IGNORE?

Did it work at an earlier date? If so, are you using a different browser now?

[bellamarie]

JoanP., It has always worked okay for me until the last few days.  Yes, it is stalling and will not respond/ proceed.  It shows me the first questionable word highlighted, and when I click an option such as, ignore, ignore all, change, etc., and it will not go any further.  I am using the same browser as always.  Not sure why it's not working properly for me. I just tried it again, and the same thing...nothing happens.
Thank you for inquiring.

marcie,  I agree, I get the feel of Jane Austen's Jane/Elizabeth personalities in Molly.  She has Eliz's outspokenness when necessary, yet Jane's very sweet, and milder side also.  I sense we have only scratched the surface of Molly, or we have yet to see the mature Molly, which may be more in control of her own life, and not allow her father, Clare or anyone else, disregard her feelings in the near future.

On to chapter 18!

Ciao for now~

[marcie]

Bellamarie, I'm sorry but I couldn't find any information to help about the spell check. I'll keep looking. Good thing you're a good speller!

Yes, we're on to Chapter 18 today. Everyone, what impressions do  you get of Osborne in this chapter?

[JoanP]

Oh wow!  Chapter XVIII is an eyeopener!  Clears up some things but leaves another big question.  Starting to understand why Osborne failed his exams.  He must have got in with the wrong crowd, though not sure how this happened - away in the ivory, guess I mean, "ivied" tower of Cambridge.  Didn't think this sort of thing went on there.  Now there are money-lenders after him to pay debts.  No wonder the Squire is angry - he's learned of the "post-obits" ... the money that would be taken from the estate at his death.  Who wouldn't be upset at this?

I'm thinking that the family may have been right in believing in Osborne's intelligence and potential... but he has squandered it all - for what?  
Roger assures Molly that there was "no wrong-doing" on Osborne's part. Have been judged Osborne too harshly?     My guess was gambling, but now not so sure.   Do you believe he was honest with Roger about the reason he's spending so much money?  I don't know what to think at this point.  

Poor Molly - she learns the truth inadvertantly - Osborne is unhappy that she knows and Roger is sworn to secrecy and is not at liberty to talk to her about it. .   Molly has to keep this secret from everyone she knows and loves - especially Osborne's broken-hearted mother.

[JoanP]

I've been noticing several typos in the text - wondered if this is just the edition I'm reading.  In this chapter, Chapter XVIII, on the day Osborne came home:

 "he came straight into the drawing room, where Molly was seated on the rug, reading by firelight, as she did not like to ring for candies merely for her own use."

Strange thing is that when I went to check on the edition I'm reading, there is NO indication as to the publisher.  In the very back of the book, I see only this -

Made in the USA
 Lexington, KY
27 December, 2013

Check the date - isn't that odd.  This was a Christmas gift - it's as if it was printed when ordered.  None of this is important though - I'm just wondered if it was printed straight from Mrs. Gaskell's manuscript, or this particular publisher - whoever that is.