Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

January-February Book Club Online

Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell

Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece.  Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55.  Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain. The best-known of her remaining novels are Cranford (1853), North and South (1854), and Wives and Daughters (1865). She became popular for her writing, especially her ghost stories, aided by Charles Dickens, who published her work in his magazine Household Words. Her ghost stories are in the "Gothic" vein.

You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg

Discussion Schedule: Part 2   Jan. 13 - Feb.2              Jan. 13 - 19}         Chapter 11     Making Friendship           Chapter 12     Preparing For The Wedding         Chapter 13     Molly Gibson's New Friends         Chapter 14     Molly Finds Herself Patronized         Chapter 15     The New Mamma         Chapter 16     The Bride At Home         Chapter 17     Trouble At Hamley Hall           Jan. 20- 22}           Chapter 18     Mr. Osborne's Secret         Chapter 19     Cynthia's Arrival         Chapter 20     Mrs Gibson's Visitors

Chapters XI through XVII  -- Jan. 13 - 19  Topics to Consider, and any others you would like to include.

1.  Clare wants the wedding sooner than later.  Why?

2.  Gibson wants it later as does Lady Cumnor.  Why?

3.  Miss Browning almost chastises Mr Gibson when he comes to them for help before the    wedding. Why would she do that?

4.  Gaskell makes reference to Molly making a Pope out of Roger. What does she mean?  What do  you think Roger thinks of Molly, if he thinks anything.

5.  Do you fnd Molly becoming more outspoken as time goes on?  What do you think prompts this?

6.  There didn’t seem to be much of a big to-do about the wedding. Gaskell doesn’t say much about it other than it went off the way most weddings               Were you surprised that Molly did not have another dress to change into for dinner the night before the wedding?

7.  What kind of person is Mr. Preston.  We know Lady Harriet cannot abide him.  Why does she tell Molly not to get near him?

8.  What’s your take on Lady Harriet?  Do you think she really thinks as highly about Clare as she says?

9.  Are you changing your opinions or assessments of any of the characters as the story goes on?

10.The bride and groom arrive home and many folk are unhappy about it.  Why?

 

DLs: Marcie,  Joanp,  Barb,  Pedln

[JoanK]

And I keep wondering why Clare is so anxious to keep her away? I even wonder if she has become a "lady of ill repute"?, with a mother who is not as careful with her reputation as Molly's father is with hers?

[Jonathan]

Anxious to keep her daughter Cynthia away, JoanK?

Isn't she trying to do the very best by her daughter?

According to Doc Gibson: 'She's at school in France, picking up airs and graces.'

Clare is a wonderful creation. She's fortyish and restless and very good at taking stock of her assets and liabilities.

So funny. Can someone explain why, '...with advancing years, she could no longer blush; and at eighteen she had been very proud of her blushes.'

I've never read of the strange dynamics of English society as they are portrayed in this book.

[pedln]

Anxious to keep her daughter Cynthia away, JoanK?

Isn't she trying to do the very best by her daughter?

I'll agree with JoanK there.  And so might the Cumnor girls -- Lady Cuxhaven (Mary) remarks about how  "The only thing that makes me uneasy now is the way in which she seems to send her daughter away from her so much; we never can persuade her to bring Cynthia with her when she comes to see us."  p. 108

“Drifitng into danger” might also refer to the situation at the Hamleys, with Osborne now being the odd man out.  The Squire and the Mrs learn the details from Roger.  And for his homecoming dinner, Roger gets to enjoy the wine that was being saved for Osborne.  Vae victis.  Woe to the conquered, to the defeated.  Alas, (Osborne) having been defeated.

Now that he has failed once, he’s not going to try for anything else.  It seems like his parents have given up on him too.

[bellamarie]

I'm not caught up to the Clare relationship or her daughter.  Ughhh...I need to go catch up.  Why did I think Gibson was hoping Mrs. Hamley was going to educate Molly with manners and soon to be woman knowledge?  Guess I need to go back and see where I got that idea.  I knew he was hoping to get her away for Coxe, so he arranged the visit to the Hamley's, but my understanding was she was to spend the time with Mrs. Hamley to help her with young women things.  Roger comes home, oh dear, it's like taking the hen (Molly) out of the hen house because of the fox (Coxe) and placing her in the Fox hole (Roger).  lolol 

I have been playing catch up since I just got my book a few days ago, and my daycare was full to the rim today with 8 children, due to school closings from the snow.  I hope to have a quiet, slow week end to get caught up.

Ciao for now~

[JoanP]

Not to worry, Bella - none of us know about "Clare's" daughter who is studying abroad in France - at this point we can only speculate where the money came from to send her away to perfect her French.  I'm not sure why this will be an asset - perhaps to prepare for a position as a governess?  Just guessing.  Does Clare seem to you to be the type who would make such a sacrifice for her daughter's education?  I'm beginning to question that as her character is slowly revealed...

The plan was for Molly to stay with the Hamley's a short time until her governess returned - but the governess, Miss Eyre, must stay with nephew who has come down with Scarlet Fever.   - so Molly's visit is extended.  The plan did not include the Hamley boys ever seeing the nubile young Molly.  Good thing Osborne didn't come home - Molly seems to adore him from his mother's description.    

Does anyone know if "Eyre" is a common name at this time...a governess named "Miss Eyre" is almost too much of a coincidence, don't you think?
Another name - can anyone explain why "Hyacynth" is called "Clare"?  

[salan]

Sorry; but I have now read 200 of  the 800 pages & still can't get interested in this book.  I guess I am not in the mood for an old fashioned book right now.  I will bow out & hopefully join this group in the discussion of the next book.
Sally

[bellamarie]

I got so confused with all the different names and places introducing Clare, that I had to re read it 3xs, and still not sure I have anyone straight.  From what little I did take away from the entire pages, was I am not so sure I like Clare.  I sense she is going to cause some real issues in Gibson and Molly's relationship.

JoanP.,

" Does Clare seem to you to be the type who would make such a sacrifice for her daughter's education?  I'm beginning to question that as her character is slowly revealed..."

I'm in agreement with you, in questioning Clare's character. 

Molly has allowed herself to invent a true infatuation for Osborne.  Such a pity since she has never met him.  I'm thinking Osborne if and when he does come home, is going to break sweet Molly's heart.  She is not even willing to be cordial to Roger.  That should make for an interesting development in the Hamley house.

I think where I thought Molly was going to learn from Mrs. Hamley is because my "impression" was she needed it, and Gibson seems to have trust and respect in Mrs. Hamley.  I see Molly coming into her womanhood, at the Hamleys under the watch of Mrs. Hamley.

Sally, sorry you did not enjoy the book.  I am finding myself laughing out loud.  Gaskell has done a terrific job with the humorous parts.  I'm finally catching up and am really enjoying it.  I love the innocence of Molly, and am looking forward to her first love interests. 

Ciao for now~

[JoanK]

" it's like taking the hen (Molly) out of the hen house because of the fox (Coxe) and placing her in the Fox hole (Roger). "

I agree. On second thought, drifting into danger could apply to Roger as well. The parents certainly won't be pleased by THAT!

Clare vs Hyacinth means nothing to us Yanks. But in England, a lot of names have social class implications that we just don't get "across the pond." I'm going to make a leap and guess that Hyacinth has the air of someone trying to pretend to be more upper class than they are (like Hyacinth in a popular British sitcom).

[PatH]

Also, Clare was what her employers insisted on calling her, so it was a reminder of having to make a living.

[Jonathan]

I can't remember reading a book with so much absorbing detail. Gaskell seems to spell everything out so clearly, and then one sees the irony or the ambiguity. And depicting the English class system requires a geat deal of finesse. As in 'barrier of forms.' p122

Roger is talking with his mother, Mrs Hamley. 'Where is Molly? - Miss Gibson, I mean,' for she was careful to keep  up a barrier of forms between the young man and young woman who were thrown together in the same household.'

I'm laughing with you, Bellamarie, over your suggestion of hen house and fox hole. Gibson is worried about the fox, and the Hamleys are worried about the hen in the house, with their boys expected home. Osborne is staying away, however, too embarrassed to come home. And isn't his father angry?

Where's the money coming from? JoanP asks. Cynthia is paying her own way, teaching English to the French girls. Her mother is enhancing her qualifications, grooming her daughter to be a better governess when she returns to England.

Clare herself is certainly a very successful governess. Or was. Still well liked by the Earl and Countess. Being called Clare by her former employers is one of those 'barrier of forms' things, I think. Calling her by her first name, Hyacinth, just wouldn't do. From being a governess to the daughters to being a companion to their mother the Countess of Cumnor is no small thing. She responds to the invitation to come out to the rich country house, The Towers, with alacrity. What a treat to leave her own house, 'full of battered and shabby furniture', and come 'bowling through the Towers Park in the luxurious carriage sent to meet her...to pass up the deep-piled carpets into my lady's own room'...etc, etc., delightful reading. '...so ready to talk...so willing to listen...about novels and poetry, travels and gossip...with sense enough to confine herself  to those short expressions of wonder, admiration, and astonishment, which may mean anything, when more recondite things were talked about.' Beginning of Chapter 9, The Widower and the Widow.

Who is being more successful with raising a daughter. Molly and Cynthia. Will the daughters eventually compare notes?

[Jonathan]

From Chapter 9

Lord Hollingford: 'Excuse me, Gibson, but we're talking like friends. Have you never thought of marrying again? It would not be like a first marriage, of course; but if you found a sensible, agreeable woman of thirty or so, I really think you couldn't do better than take her to manage your home, and so save you either discomfort or worry; and, besides she would be able to give your daughter that kind of tender supervision which, I fancy, all girls of that age require. It's a delicate subject, but you'll excuse my having spoken frankly.'

Mr Gibson had thought of this advice several times since it was given; but it was a case of 'first catch your hare.' Where was the sensible and agreeable woman of thirty or so? Not Miss Browning, nor Miss Phoebe, nor Miss Goodenough. Among his country  patients there were  two classes pretty distinctly marked, farmers, whose children were unrefined and uneducated; squires, whose daughters would, indeed, think the world was coming to a pretty pass, if they were to marry a country surgeon.

[pedln]

Bellamarie, I'm with you in the confusion department.  There are so many details and after one has read a few chapters it's hard to keep straight what happened when.  But it's a delightful story and the characters are fascinating. And it's becoming easier to point out their flaws and peculiarities.

One thing that was puzzling me, and I think I have it straight now, is the character of Lord Hollingford. He's the oldest child of Lord and Lady Cumnor, a brother to Lady Harriet?  Not much has been said of him other than he was a widower with boys, and a scientist of some repute.  I think I was interchanging him with Lord Cumnor. But both he and his father really pushed for Gibson's remarriage.

And can you imagine how Lady Cumnor must have felt when Clare came upon Lord C's comment "about Clare and Gibson."  OOPs!!!

[bellamarie]

Pedln, I have got to write down each character and which family they belong to and where they live, or staying or visiting.  Ughh...I think I am keeping them straight, but then your post made me think I totally forgot about Lord Hollingford.    

I actually enjoyed the proposal, and think Gibson and Clare each have their reasons for the marriage to take place.  Neither is confessing an undying love, yet they both do in fact seem smitten with each other.  They both see the pros of being married, and I don't see anything wrong with either, wanting better for themselves, their children or future.  What just tickled me to death was how dear old Lady Hamley reads the letter aloud to Gibson, making him aware that Clare had already had the insight as to what was hopefully intended.  Why did Lady Hamley, basically pop their bubble of happiness at that moment?  She knew full well what she was doing to them, not just exposing something about Clare's character, but she also knew it would take some of the excitement away from the entire proposal.  Hmmmm...seems if she has her way, she will not make this entirely easy for the two of them.  What is her motive?

Jonathon it is quite comical when you see what can happen with this set up.  
Poor Molly, is so very heartbroken to learn of the upcoming marriage.  I must say Roger proved to be a very sweet and caring person, trying to console Molly.  Hence, the fox is eyeing the hen, and the hen is appreciating the fox's advice, even if his mother hen chimes in,
pg. 170 "He has a good heart, but he isn't so tender in his manner as Osborne.  Roger is a little rough sometimes."

Molly responds with: "Then I like roughness.  It did me good.  It made me feel how badly__oh, Mrs. Hamley, I did behave so badly to papa this morning."[/i]

If Roger was not tender in words, he was in deeds.  Unreasonable and possibly exaggerated as Molly's grief had appeared to him, it was real suffering to her; and he took some pains to lighten it, in his own way, which was characteristic enough.

RUT OH!

So, I suppose the big suspense for me, is for Osborne and Cynthia to come home, so we can see the interaction of these young people.  Molly seems interested in meeting Cynthia, although if Clare has anything to do with it, it will not be too soon.

This cracked me up.... "Hyacinth!"  said Molly bewildered.  "Yes; Hyacinth! It's the silliest name I ever heard of; but it's hers, and I must call her by it.  I can't bear Clare, which is what my lady and all the family at the Towers call her; and "Mrs. Kirkpatrick" is formal and nonsensical too; as she'll change her name so soon.".........."And the worst is, she's gone and perpetuated her own affected name by having her daughter called after her. Cynthia!  One thinks of the moon, and the man in the moon with his bundle of faggots.  I'm thankful you're plain Molly, child."  

What on earth does he mean referring to a "bundle of faggotss".  Good grief!!   :    

I am finally caught up!!!  Now I am very anxious to begin next weeks chapters to see where all of this is going.

Ciao for now~

p.s.  I tried to post several times today and kept getting a data error?

[Lucylibr]

Hello, everybody: I have been reading along this week catching up.  I hope it's okay to just jump in here. I love this book having read it and studied it in graduate school 50 years ago!  I had forgotten how good it is, how very well structured and how memorable the details of the story.  I have been a Latin student for a few years now but have very seldom participated in the book club, but I will try to keep up and complete this one, because the discussion is most informative.

Hello, Pedln, good to hear from you. We were in NYC together and also helpers together in a Latin class or two.

Someone asked about the competency of Clare as a governess, and I would like to add that she was not very competent. Lady Cumnor's daughters discuss their childhood, and Harriet says that Lady Cumnor was too busy being a great lady to pay much attention to her daughters' education. She is kind and diplomatic but direct in her criticism. She says that anyone "not particular about education" would keep Clare, but in truth that there were "veiled flirtations" going on between Clare and the school masters from outside, and that Lady Cumnor often took Clare away from the girls to write notes for her and to do accounts "at the most critical times in our lessons." Hence Harriet is the "most ill informed girl in London," not a crucial problem in this society but one worth mentioning because Mrs. Gaskell did believe in education for women. Clare also made little Harriet a confidente in matters concerning her marriage to Mr. Kirkpatrick, which was totally inappropriate, although Harriet can chuckle about it now as a 28, almost 29 year old adult. Harriet's sister Mary is involved in her daughters' education and provides a positive contrast to her mother.

I look forward to the next section of the book and discussion.

[JoanP]

Lucy!  What a pleasant surprise to find you with us this morning! You are very welcome!  Thank you so much for shining the spotlight on Clare, as a governess.  Also on Lady Harriet, who seems to have a good head on her shoulders in spite of the fact that she is "the most ill-informed girl in London."  I think we are going to be seeing more of her - this is a small village.

Some of you noticed that we had a minor crash here yesterday, which was rectified by a resetting to the last backup - all the way back to Friday pm, wiping out most of yesterday's posts.  Really, really sorry about that.  Will try to reread your posts and recreate the responses they inspired when later this morning - but those posts are gone forever. I hope you do to if your posts were lost. 

Only recently we discovered that the novel is divided into six sections, and realized we'll never be able to discuss the 60 chapters by the end of January.  So, we made the decision to continue through February.

  Tomorrow we will move on to the next chapters of Part II.    (The first ten chapters made up Part I.)  To make it clear which chapters of Part II we'll be discussing, we've included the names of the titles.  Will you look over this schedule to see if you understand which chapters we'll be discussing in the coming week?  Will continue to post the discussion schedule in the heading - which is the first post at the top of each page.

Discussion Schedule: Part 2   Jan. 13 - Feb.2              Jan. 13 - 19}         Chapter 11     Making Friendship           Chapter 12     Preparing For The Wedding         Chapter 13     Molly Gibson's New Friends         Chapter 14     Molly Finds Herself Patronized         Chapter 15     The New Mamma         Chapter 16     The Bride At Home         Chapter 17     Trouble At Hamley Hall

[bellamarie]

Good morning all!  Welcome Lucy, I am so happy you pointed out Clare's lack of good judgements while governess to the three daughters of Lady Cumnor's, (Harriet, Mary and Agnes).  While Harriet reveals Clare used her as a confidante, her sister Mary, who now has two daughters of her own says, "She hopes "her" governess, does not confide in her two daughter Lily and Grace." 

Mary tells her mother “The only thing that makes me uneasy now is the way in which she (Clare) seems to send her daughter (Cynthia) away from her so much; we never can persuade her to bring Cynthia with her when she comes to see us.”

Harriet says, "Mary finds fault with Clare for her modesty and economy.”  Pg 141
Harriet says she and Clare are always great friends, I was her confidant in her loves with poor Mr. Kirkpatrick, and we've kept up our intimacy ever since.  I know of three offers she had besides.

Interesting that Harriet mentions Clare had "three offers besides" Kirikpatrick. I suppose that would be a bit of a flirt.

There are so many characters we have yet to interact with, I can't wait to see it all come together, I'm suspecting for the wedding.  It's almost like a Lampoon's wedding to take place!!  Well maybe I am finding a bit too much humor in this story.    

JoanP., So glad you got the problem solved. 

Must go get ready for church.....thanks for the new schedule posted.  I wondered how we were going to finish this huge book up in one month's time.  More fun for February!!!!!

Ciao for now~
 

[pedln]

Lucy, it's great to see you here. I'm so glad you can be part of our discussion.  Good points about Clare's competancy as a governess, and her indescrepancies with her charges, with Lady Harriet, anyway.

What on earth does he mean referring to a "bundle of faggotss".

Bellamarie, from what I can find, faggots refers to a bundle of sticks that the man in the moon is carrying on his back.  According to British folklore, this man was placed on the moon because he broke the Sabbath by collecting sticks on that day.  What I can't figure out is why Mr. Gibson refers to it when speaking of Hyacinth, Clare's name and Cynthia, the name of her daughter, unless it's because that also in folklore, Hyacinth refers to one of the moons.

PatH, do you have this in your annotated edition?

[JoanP]

Speaking of governesses, I've been meaning to ask if anyone here is familiar enough with Charlotte Bronte's Jane Eyre written 20 years before Wives, to compare her with Molly's governess, Miss Eyre. Reading that Elizabeth Gaskell and Charlotte Bronte were friends, I wonder if the use of the same name was significant, a coincidence or just Mrs. Gaskell's recognition of her old friend, perhaps?

[PatH]

I'm guessing just a tip of the hat to an old friend.  Miss Eyre here isn't a well-developed character, not nearly as complex as Jane Eyre.

My notes talk about the fanciness of the names Hyacinth and Cynthia, but don't explain the faggots.

[JoanK]

WELCOME, LUCY. Interesting that this book is read in graduate school. Are others of Gaskell's works also read?

[PatH]

Lucy, welcome!  It's good to have yet another enthusiast in our discussion.

We have hints of what an unsatisfactory governess Clare was even before Lady Harriet talks about it.  She has changed jobs many times.  Presumably she is hired because she is so presentable, and makes a good first impression, then let go when they see she isn't serious.

[Jonathan]

Welcome, Lucy. Tell us more about how Wives and Daughters was taught and studied in grad school. Obviously literary scholars and academics feel that Gaskell has earned a place in English literature.

The book has a lot of merit. The strange literary allusions are  an unusual feature. So far into the book I'm delighted to be enjoying a very classy soap opera.

Clare is a sweetheart. I'm not surprised at all the offers she gets. Marriage is certainly a practical matter with her. As it for the Molly's father. But to be jealous of her own daughter is puzzling.

[pedln]

Oh my, what to do about Clare.  It appears she’s seen in many different lights.  Jonathan sees her as a wonderful creation, a real sweetheart, a successful governess.  Lucy, PatH, and Bellamarie aren’t so sure. Lucy claims she was not a very competent  governess, and some of you expressed concern about her inappropriate confidences with her charges.  I find her to be manipulative and have taken a strong dislike to her since Molly’s first stay at the Towers, where she fell asleep  after too much time in the sun. Clare places blame on Molly because she overslept.  And she continues to twist things that don’t show her in a positive light, placing blame on someone else.  I can’t put my finger on specifics right now, but they will be popping up.

[bellamarie]

Jonathon,

Clare is a sweetheart. I'm not surprised at all the offers she gets.

Oh my!  I am surprised to hear this, when clearly her character has been in judgement.  

Lady Cumnor is surely pointing out to Gibson, Clare's flaw of secrecy and manipulation, when she deliberately reads the letter aloud to Gibson, revealing Clare already knew of the possibility.  When they return to the library they both are uncomfortable because Clare knows she has been outed, and Gibson must be wondering if she can be trusted.  Yet, he needs and wants a lady/mother figure for Molly in fear of his daughter being around the young apprentices, so he is willing to take a chance on Clarel.  But then Mrs. Hamley does say, not all engagements end in marriage.  So, is it possible the wedding does not take place?  Lady Cumnor and Mrs. Hamley the two elderly women are not fond of Clare and Gibson's union. This is a red flag for me because they are the elders and wiser ones.  Any mother who has a jealousy of her daughter's youth and good looks, so she keeps her away from her presence says much about her character.  I could never imagine such an attitude from a mother.

pedln, Thank you so much for the info of bundle of sticks and the moon.  I'm sensing Gibson dislikes the names so much so that he sees the both of them burdened with a bundle of sticks on their back.  Yet more of Gaskell's humor.  

Yes, pedln, Clare did indeed blame Molly for oversleeping.  And if you recall, she also did not want Lady Hollingford know she ate the food on the plate that was prepared for Molly, so she led her to believe Molly ate the entire plate.  Gaskell is definitely dropping us bread crumbs, to lead us to the conclusion this woman is not to be trusted.

Sorry Jonathon, you may have to take the insight of us women, and not be taken in as other men have with our Clare/Hyacinth!
I say in jest.  

Had a busy day today, so now I must go read the next chapters.

Ciao for now~

[JoanP]

  "Clare is a sweetheart. I'm not surprised at all the offers she gets."  Bella, this is Jonathan's tongue-in-cheek humor here - taking the part of those males who are taken in by Clare's many charms.  But she has agreed to marry Molly's father.  Will she continue her flirtations - or settle down to the demands of a busy doctor's wife in exchange for the need to  eke out a living as a teacher?  

So this is really a marriage of convenience.  The whole agreement doesn't look too promising from where I sit.  He's marrying her to provide a mother for Molly.  Increasingly, Molly sees through Clare - without being able to put her concerns into words.  Is it safe to say that Molly doesn't need, or want a mother?   Too bad she can't communicate better with her father. We seem to become one with the narrator.  The all-seeing narrator, Mrs. Gaskell,  is making us even more aware of Clare's motives than Molly is able to discern.  I'm enjoying the unusual view, aren't you?

Today we will move into Part II - and hope you will realize that you don't need to cover  all of these wedding chapters this week - keep an eye on the heading if you are wondering how far to go.  The following week, we'll complete the remaining chapters of Part II.  Please let us know if you are the least bit confused abouut the schedule.

[Lucylibr]

Remember it was 50 years ago that I was in graduate school studying the 19th century novel.  Mrs. Gaskell was not part of the main curriculum but alluded to for her unusual accomplishments as a novelist having been singled out by Dickens and being a woman who lived an otherwise typical domestic life.  I read her because I was searching for a topic for a paper and looking ahead to the possibility of writing a Ph.D. dissertation, which I never did.

As for women who are jealous of the youth and beauty of their daughters, it is not unknown. Dr. Phil has addressed such women occasionally on his show.  The reason is usually that they feel cheated of their own youth and maybe have become more attractive in middle age, such as having had plastic surgery or having lost weight, and now want to take advantage of their improved status, observing the many opportunities that their daughters have for admiration.

[Lucylibr]

I am not saying that Mrs. Gaskell had anything like this in mind, just that it is a psychological aberration that occurs in life.  I think Mrs. Gaskell was just showing us the negative side of Clare's character.

[pedln]

Mr. Gibson has been hit from all sides by those who think he should remarry, and as Bellamarie tells us, the cat is out of the bag. Mrs. Kirkpatrick knew before Mr. Gibson what was going to take place – don’t you think.  But after that very short courtship the poor man is now concentrating on her good points.

Is it safe to say that Molly doesn't need, or want a mother? 

I don’t know about that, JoanP.  She would probably be very happy if the mother were like Mrs Hamley.  She seems to thrive and is happy in her presence. She’s rather an enigma to me. She’s naïve, but is very observant, and not afraid to speak her mind, though she manages to be tactful while doing it.  A wonderful example being her passioned response to Lady Cumnor’s suggestion that she stay with Clare at the school at Ashcombe before the wedding.  "I don't think it would be nice at all. I mean, my lady, that I should dislike it very much; it would be taking me away from papa just these very few last months.

Lucy, that would have been a fascinating thesis.  Would it have been a first on Elizabeth Gaskell?

I think Mrs. Gaskell was just showing us the negative side of Clare's character.

You are kind, Lucy.  I wonder what we would list under the PROS column for Clare.

[JoanP]

"Mrs. Gaskell was not part of the main curriculum but alluded to for her unusual accomplishments as a novelist having been singled out by Dickens"

Your mention of the fact that Dickens invited Mrs. Gaskell to write for his Household Words reminds me of an article I read on their relationship during the publication of the serialized installments of Wives and Daughters, Lucy.  The myriad details in Mrs. Gaskell's writing has been mentioned several times in this discussion.  Apparently Dickens was complelled to require heavy editing so that her installments would fit in the allotted space in each edition.  She had a most difficult time with this and their relationship was becoming more strained - to the point where she claimed she'd never publish in his magazine again.  Of course she didn't, she passed away before she completed this novel.

I wonder if the edited version, the complete version is included in the books we are reading...or if we are reading the abbreviated version!

[bellamarie]

Lucy, Yes, I had a very good friend who had a mother very similar to Clare.  She was constantly needing to be center of attention and pointed out her own beauty, shape, assets etc. to anyone at any of the family gatherings.  I felt very sad for my friend, because it strained their mother/daughter relationship.  So I am aware mothers can and do compete with their daughter's youth and beauty, I just was voicing out loud, I can't imagine it!  It shows the mother's insecurities and character flaws in my opinion.

JoanP.,  LOLOL  Yes, I was laughing throughout my entire post responding to Jonathon, but then he has not yet confirmed it was "tongue in cheek."  So the jury is out until I hear from him.      This book is a lot of fun for sure! 

I wonder if the edited version, the complete version is included in the books we are reading...or if we are reading the abbreviated version!

Now this would be very interesting to find out.  What would Dickens disapprove of, so much so, he would insist Gaskell should remove from the articles?

So on to chapter 11  Making Friendship

Wow!  Clare certainly has her work cut out for her with sweet Molly.  Yes indeed, Molly is able to speak up for herself when she needs to.  She is no shrinking violet.  She already knows Clare lied about her eating all the food on the plate, and her oversleeping, so she has got her defenses up. 

pg. 175 & 176, Clare, "And he is so fond of you, dear."  Molly's colour flushed into her face.  She did not want an assurance of her own father's love from this strange woman.  She could not help being angry; all she could do was to keep silent.  "you don't know how he speaks of you; "his little treasure" as he calls you.  I'm almost jealous sometimes."

ALMOST jealous....I would say she is completely jealous!

Geez, please forgive me if I get my Ladies mixed up,  But I thought this was very telling:
pg. 178  Mrs. Kirkpatrick led her into Lady Cumnor's presence by the hand, and, in presenting her, said__"My dear little daughter, Lady Cumnor!"

"Now, Clare, don't let me have nonsense.  She is not your daughter yet, and may never be__I believe that one-third of the engagements I have heard of have never come to marriages."

I could just hear, "Now Clare, don't count your chickens before they are hatched....Or....  Now Clare, don't get your knickers in a bunch."   

Then comes more humor.....  "you and she must become better acquainted__you know nothing of each other at present; you are not to be married till Christmas, and what could be better than that she should go back with you to Ashcombe!  She would be with you constantly, and have the advantage of the companionship of your young people, which would be a good thing for an only child!  It's a capital plan; I'm very glad I thought of it!"

Now it would be difficult to say which of the Lady Cumnor's two hearers was the most dismayed at the idea had taken possession of her.

Oh my gosh I thought I would spit a rib laughing at this.  Dear old Mrs. Cumnor is surely having a field day with Clare, yet at the expense of poor Molly.  The two of them were mortified at the thought of having to spend that much time together. 

pedln,

"She would probably be very happy if the mother were like Mrs Hamley.  She seems to thrive and is happy in her presence."

I agree, I think Molly would accept a stepmother, if indeed she knew it was a nice, caring, loving, trustworthy woman, who had her and her father's best interest at heart.  The way Clare has presented herself to Molly from their very first introduction, to now her trying to manipulate her, as though she knows her father better than herself, there is no way Molly is feeling comfortable with Clare being her stepmother.

I'll try NOT to read the entire next chapters too quickly, but I must say, it's got my interest piqued as to what comes next.

Ciao for now~

[JoanK]

I can only see this relationship going from bad to worse, as Clare's superficial lovingness wears off.

[pedln]

Abbreviated version, JoanP?  Assuredly, it must be.    What interesting pieces of Gaskell history we’re getting here, from you and Lucy.  I had overlooked that she died before the book was finished.  Who completed it for her?

Can you sympathize with her?  Minute details were her style.  It would be like telling Nanny to dress a child for a party, but don’t pay any attention to her shoes and socks, or the hair ribbons.

This book is a lot of fun for sure!

Indeed it is, Bellamarie, and I know one of my favorite scenes will be Lady Cumnor’s suggestion to Clare that Molly return to Ashcombe with her so they can get to know one another better.  Oh my, the looks of horror on both their faces.

I can only see this relationship going from bad to worse

I agree JoanK. She is a coniver, that one. Not one bit does she want the pretty, sparkling Cynthia at the wedding, to be compared with her still pretty, but fading mother, who no longer carries the bloom of youth.  But of course she changed her mind (for about 20 hours) after Mr. Gibson gave her 15 pounds to cover the cost of Cynthia’s journey home and back to school.

I’m not quite sure I understand the ins and outs of the life interest from Mr. Kirkpatrick. (Any more than I understand  the inheritance in Downton Abbey.)

Speaking of Downton, I can’t help seeing some of the same attitudes there that are in Wives and Daughters.  Like the visit from the Australian singer Nellie Melba.  Two points against her – she’s from Australia and she’s a singer.  Eat dinner with the guests?  Heaven forbid.

But now we have a wedding to prepare for.  But there really hasn't been a lot of dialogue between the bride and groom, and Mr Gibson is in a bit of a pickle because the townspeople know nothing of his plans, including the Brownings.

[Jonathan]

'She died before the book was finished.' 'Who completed it for her?' Good question, Pedln.

The introduction in my book has this to say: 'With only a chapter or so left to write and the story's completion clearly in view, she was at the The Lawns, Holybourne, near Alton in Hampshire, a house she had recently purchased and was in process of furnishing. She was taking tea with members of her family in 12 November 1865, when in the midst of a sentence she fell forward and was dead.'

I believe the house was acquired with the earnings from Wives and Daughters, and was intended for retirement for her and her husband, the Reverend Gaskell.

And that raises an interesting point. Clare has just lost her husband of many years, also a churchman, the curate Mr Kirkpatrick. I'm convinced Gaskell had tremendous fun creating the character of the ex-governess. I'm sure she was her favorite in the book she was writing.

If my post seemed written with tongue in cheek, it was only partly so, in imitation of Gaskell. And I can't get over how she teases the reader. Makes a statement and then adds a rider which changes everything. As for example, at the beginning of Chapter XI: We're led to believe it's jealousy that will keep Cynthia away at the wedding. But then we're told: 'she saw further reasons in her own mind for Cynthia's remaining quietly at her school at Boulogne.'

'Lady Cumnor and Mrs. Hamley the two elderly women are not fond of Clare and Gibson's union. This is a red flag for me because they are the elders and wiser ones.'

There are so many things to reply to in your posts, Bellamarie. Why are these two unhappy with the coming marriage? Is it because each is losing a valued companion?

[PatH]

I don't know who tied up the loose ends, but Mrs. Gaskell had left copious information about what was to happen in the little bit remaining.

[JoanP]

I'll bet she did, Pat. Considering the length of the book she had written - and the fact that she was working on the final chapter when she died - I'm certain the book ended satisfactorily and we will not be left hanging as we were when Dickens died before completing The Mystery of Edwin Drood....remember that?  I found this to answer the question about who finished Wives and Daughters.

"When Gaskell died suddenly in 1865, Wives and Daughters was not quite complete. Her editor, Frederick Greenwood, wrote an appended section describing what Gaskell had planned for the remaining chapters in her notes. There are no surprises for us here, but it would have been nice to read it in her own words.
 While I lament that Gaskell was taken at the young age of 55, I will venture to say that I in fact prefer the ending this way. There is an intriguing and freeing quality to things left unsaid and loose ends left untied..."

I've abbreviated this article because it's full of spoilers.  I have to say I was surprised to learn
she had an editor...other than Dickens - weren't you?  Maybe Dickens was primarily concerned about the length of her submissions to his magazine.

[JoanP]

Maybe the ladies were influenced by Molly's dismay at the engagement, Jonathan. She is making friends with everyone she comes into contact with - including those in high places.  
I completely related to Molly's "unsolved problem" - how did her father come to like her (Clare) enough to marry her?  My father remarried when I turned 18.  I had the same "unsolved problem" - the uncomfortable feeling that the marriage was somehow related to me.

Didn't you laugh aloud at Molly's reaction to Mrs. K's hand stroking - " purring out inarticulate loving sounds..." Too much for Miss Molly.  "Tiresome."  Molly is on to Clare.

None of us are referring to Clare as Hyacinth yet, have you noticed? Do you think we will as we get deeper into the story?  Or will she always be Clare to us?
Speaking of her name, did anyone wonder about that mention of "an acrostic on her name by a lieutenant in the 53 rd?"  What was that about?

[bellamarie]

Jonathon,

Why are these two unhappy with the coming marriage? Is it because each is losing a valued companion?

Are you referring to Molly (NOT Clare) as the valued companion, since it will be safe for her to return to her home with a stepmother to keep the fox Coxe, away from hen Molly?  Although they seem against the marriage, both ladies have had Clare as a guest/companion in their home so possibly they would not want to lose her.  I sense there is a hidden reason, we haven't learned about.  Which makes me wonder once again, just what did Gaskell mean earlier when she wrote, "Coxe knew things?"   More bread crumbs being dropped....hmmmm.

I'm convinced Gaskell had tremendous fun creating the character of the ex-governess. I'm sure she was her favorite in the book she was writing.

Oh I am sure Gaskell loved creating Clare's character, but I'm sensing Mrs. Cumnor and Mrs. Hamley were her favorites. They are mine so far. These two ladies are busting me up.  They are calling Clare out on her every move.  

pedln, Yes!  I could clearly picture Molly and Clare's faces, as Mrs. Cumnor suggests they spend that time together.  Why do I sense Gaskell/ Mrs. Cumnor, are enjoying toying and torturing Clare?  

JoanP., I can't see myself referring to Clare as Hyacinth ever!  She will always be "Clare" in my mind.  

So how do you think Clare is going to take it once she finds out Gibson has asked Miss Browning to decorate his house?  

Chapter 13  Molly Gibson's New Friends

pg. 196 The squire had heard that Osborne might probably return home for a few days before going abroad, and though the growing intimacy between Roger and Molly did not alarm him, in the least, yet he was possessed by a very hearty panic lest the heir might take a fancy to the surgeon's daughter, and he was in such a fidget for her to leave the house before Osborne came home, that his wife lived in constant terror lest he should make it too obvious to their visitor

Still, although they were drawn together in this very pleasant relationship, each was imagining some one very different for the future owner of their whole heart__their highest and completest love.  Molly's little wavering maiden fancy dwelt on the unseen Osborne, who was now a troubadour, and now a knight, such as he wrote about in one of his own poems; some one like Osborne, perhaps, rather than Osborne himself, for she shrank from giving a personal form and name to the hero that was to be.  The squire was not unwise in wishing her well out of the house before Osborne came home, if he was considering her peace of mind.

RUT OH!  I suspect Molly just may very well have her sights on the favored, prodigal son, which will not bode well with his parents.

Molly and Gibson are having dinner with Mr. Preston and this puzzled me....

pg. 205  "Her father's depression,which was still continuing and rendering him very silent, made her uneasy; yet she wished to conceal it from Mr. Preston and so she talked away, trying to obviate the sort of personal bearing which their host would give to everything."

Why is Gibson depressed?  

Gaskell, sure does have us coming and going.  Everything seems a puzzle piece, yet when you think it fits you realize, nope, not what it seems. I would imagine she had many notes, making it possible for her editor to figure out what she intended the ending to be.  Although, not knowing she would not be the one to finalize it, since she was perfectly healthy, and had no reason to believe she herself would not finish the book, how would we know, if in fact she would not have gone in a different direction, than what the ending turns out to be?  After all, Dickens did  have her editing it continuously.  With the humor speckled all throughout the book, I could sense her giggling, and making a sudden change, taking something into an entire different direction, enjoying the unexpected.  Guess it's something we will never know.  But what I do know, she must have died a happy person writing this fun story!

Ciao for now~

[Lucylibr]

Why is Gibson depressed?  He is about to marry a woman he hardly knows and does not have any idea what life with her will be like.  He is mostly devoted to his profession and doesn't care much about food, house decor, and social activities. Yet this part of his life will be altered in ways that he cannot foresee and may not like.  Surely he is aware that Clare is frivolous and "flimsy" in her character.  He has experienced her refusal to include her daughter in her marriage plans and must be puzzled about it.  How can he extricate himself from his relationship with Clare?  After marriage it will be nearly impossible, and he has missed the opportunity to pull out before the ceremony takes place, which is this case would have been not to propose to her at all without getting to know her and finding out more about her. In Victorian times people did not have anything like the fluidity and freedom in relationships that we enjoy today.

When I get some time I will look over some of the current scholarship on Mrs. Gaskell. There was a substantial amount 50 years ago, and I know there is more now. Scholars have been interested in her life as a Victorian woman and her relationship with Dickens for a long time. I can no longer remember studies and facts about Mrs. Gaskell and am enjoying the novel for itself.

[JoanP]

Lucy - for all those reasons, Dr. Gibson realizes that his life will change and he will have to make concessions for this new wife of his.  But he is still willing to go through with it for Molly's sake. Couldn't you feel his reaction (dismay?) when Mr. Coxe is called from the practice to spend the rest of his bachelor uncle's life caring for him.  The doctor wonders "if this had happened months earlier if circumstances might have changed."  You bet they would!  The only reason he felt the need to marry was to protect Molly from Mr. Coxe's amourous attention.  Do you think Dr. Gibson would have married Mrs. Kirkpatrick if Mr. Coxe was no longer in the picture?   But then, there would be no story, would there?

So it is clear that the wedding is to go forward - we're told that Molly is going to try to like Mrs. Kirkpatrick...  I have not doubt she will. Try.