Author Topic: Greater Journey, The by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online  (Read 68167 times)

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #160 on: July 27, 2014, 12:19:57 PM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

July Book Club Online
The Greater Journey: Americans in Paris
by David McCullough
 
"Magnifique! I should have known--McCullough is one of my favorite history writers, and he's writing about nineteenth-century Paris, one of my favorite places to read/think/dream about.  When I was young I always wanted to go to Paris--but not Francois Mitterand's Paris. No, I wanted Degas' Paris, Balzac's Paris, Toulouse-Lautrec's Paris. Well, this was an extended visit to that same Paris but through fresh eyes."  Goodreads review

"In The Greater Journey, David McCullough tells the enthralling, inspiring—and until now, untold—story of the adventurous American artists, writers, doctors, politicians, and others who set off for Paris in the years between 1830 and 1900, hungry to learn and to excel in their work. What they achieved would profoundly alter American history." Amazon review    
                                 Discussion Schedule:
Week 1 - July 14 - 20 ~ Part I/ Chapters 1 & 2
Week 2 - July 21 - 27 ~ Part I/ Chapters 3 & 4 
Week 3 - July 28 - Aug. 3 ~ Part II/ Chapters 5 & 6
Week 4 - Aug. 4 - 10 ~ Part II/ Chapters 7 & 8
Week 5 - Aug. 11 - 17 ~ Part III/ Chapters 9, 10, 11
Week 6-  Aug. 18 - 24 ~ Part III/ Chapters 12,13,14


Relevant Links
David McCullough-Brian Lamb  Intervew (Books TV)  ; David McCullough-Charlie Rose;   Biography - David McCullough; Morse's Interactive Gallery of the Louvre


Some Topics for Discussion
July 28 -  August 3
Part II ~  Chapter 5 ~ American Sensations

1. While Healy paints dignitaries, they reminisce about important times in their life and their experiences visiting Paris or as a European, visiting America. Adams visibly trembled talking about his favorite authors - What is your memory of your first exposure to music, the arts, literature that moved you, that touched something within.

2. Is Barnum correct, do "people like to be humbugged"? Are the many Youtube videos showing us the unusual, ways that we are continually "humbugged?" Who are the Tiny Tim's of today, who, what personalities bring in the crowd of curiosity seekers?

3. Have you listened to the music of Thalberg, Chopin, Liszt and Berlioz? Do you have a CD or does your library have CDs that you can borrow to listen to their work - or can anyone find online a link to the work of these composers?

4. What about Louis Moreau Gottschalk...some of his piano compositions are on Youtube. Have a listen and tell us what you think.

5. Were you aware of the numbers of Native American Indians that visited both London and Paris? Where in America was the land of these tribes? Do you think Catlin was humbugging the people of France or genuinely providing an exchange of cultures? 

Part II ~ Chapter 6.   Change at Hand

1. What change was happening in Algiers in 1848? How disruptive to the Americans was this change in political power between 1848 and 1851?

2. Margaret Fuller classified three group types of American visitors to Paris - do you fit any of the three types when you travel to visit a new city?

3. What have you found out about the New York Infirmary and Collage for Women? Had you ever heard there was an institution run by women in the nineteenth century? 

4. You have to wonder if Webster was an important figure that we continue to include in grade school curriculum because of Healy's painting showing him a man of character?

5. These are all Americans that show perseverance toward any difficulty that blocks their achieving their dreams - is this a characteristic of Americans?



Discussion Leaders:  JoanPPatH  BarbJoanK,   Marcie


JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #161 on: July 27, 2014, 12:22:54 PM »
PatH - I forgot about the Louvre closing for the summer months.  Thought maybe Morse was hurrying to finish and head home because of the cholera!  Thanks for the reminder.  Weren't the Americans affected by the outbreak of cholera - and leaving Paris at the time.  I don't sense any urgency to leave.  Does McCullough write of a mass exodus?

Quote
" The political changes in France don't seem to have affected our characters'  lives at all. How much do you suppose this generation was affected by the revolutionary ideas of the generation before?"
(Last question over Chapter IV)


I can't believe that the bloody revolt  in the July Revolution of 1830, which took 3000 lives in the streets of Paris, didn't affect the lives of Americans at all.  Maybe there weren't too many Americans living in Paris yet.  Louis-Philippe became the new Citizen-King at the end of this revolt and returned to Paris.

In an earlier chapter we read how he had been living in exile in America for several years before this.  At some point he'd been working as a waiter.  Does anyone know where? Was it really New Orleans? He was also friendly with General Lafayette - and remained so once on the throne in France.  The Americans in Paris enjoyed him immensely...were graciously welcomed at the king's court.

I'm wondering what the political situation  in Paris during Louis_Philippe's reign.  The Americans seemed unconcerned, I imagine because of their high standing with the king. He'd been one of them - worked as a waiter.  A man of the people  But the  rule (and spending)  of the " citizen king" favors the upper classes - while it's the working classes who are beginning to revolt.  Were the American's concerned about the rising discontent?

Look at Louis-Philippe's  face, Jean!  What do you see?



ps
Jean
, nothing is mentioned about tripping while  reading and walking.  That would be a main concern of mine!  ;)

pedln

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #162 on: July 27, 2014, 12:28:50 PM »
JoanP, like you, I'm not sure what McC means when he speaks of Morse's "inner torment." I think it may be due in part to the cholera epidemic that was taking so many lives, and also in part due to criticism of Cooper, that Morse felt was unjust.  (p. 91)

I'm surprised that Morse did not wait for the Cooper family to return to Paris so they could all travel back to America together.  Such was the wish of James Fenimore.


JoanK

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #163 on: July 27, 2014, 02:38:10 PM »
"I can't imagine trying to walk and read a book"

I used to do it as a child. In fact, I would leave a book at the bottom of the stairs to read while I was climbing them, then leave it at the top to read going down.

Now I can't even walk and chew gum at the same time!

But DM really paints pictures for us to see, doesn't he. It's his good writing as much as his subjects that make him so popular.

Off to read the next section. I feel we could discuss this one forever, there's so much here. Which did you find more interesting, the artist or the medicals?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #164 on: July 27, 2014, 02:53:52 PM »
From my reading, McCullough is definitely giving us an American viewpoint - there is much going on in Europe that France is just one of several nations going through a populous uprising wanting change - and he does not mention much about the Church that was a huge factor in these two revolutions 1830 and 1848 -

My guess is that Americans think of church firstly as a religion rather than as a political arm of the government and so trying to add an additional understanding of how a state religion and a history of the politics of a religion that was entwined in France since before it was France and still Gaul would probably not be important to most Americans - after all, their forefathers left all that for the freedom of religion excluding both a king and a state religion. They all appear to have on their mind learning as much as possible about their discipline in the arts in sciences. I am also thinking few of them have a good enough command of the language to carry on a political conversation with a group of Frenchmen -

To get into a conversation may even require you have already established a viewpoint - McCullough seems to show them having respect for the Royals, and enjoying the vast improvements in Paris so that I bet listening the likes of Karl Marx would seem almost a frivolous waste of time.

Also, we hear of visits to restaurants but they seem to do things in groups or in pairs which would naturally make a chance encounter more difficult as well as, this time in history strangers of their 'class' (they are not from the poor of America) would probably require a letter of introduction. Because the other aspect of French life that appears missing to me is meeting with or commenting on the powerhouse authors of the time which again would require language skills - Dumas and Hugo and the lot were not translated into English.  
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanK

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #165 on: July 27, 2014, 03:18:00 PM »
Barbara: we are a little early for Marx. His first published criticism of society was in 1844.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/bio/marx/lifeandwork.htm

I guess they could have run into him in coffee shops before he was kicked out of Paris. But my guess is that you're right: they probably hung out with other Americans. they didn't seem to like even the English that they met. too much bad feeling left over from the Revolution?

JoanK

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #166 on: July 27, 2014, 03:22:00 PM »
JoanP: I missed your post. What do I see in his face. he looks like he has a stomach ache. e to him would have a pain in the neck.  :D

mabel1015j

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #167 on: July 27, 2014, 04:03:57 PM »
I think Louis-Phillipe's face says "This is so boring."  :)

This link doesn't say where L-P worked as a waiter, but on Amazon for 1 penny you can buy his Diary of his visit and maybe find out. Click on the link on this site......

http://www.frontiertraveler.com/on-the-trail/louis-philippes-diary-of-travels-in-america/

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #168 on: July 27, 2014, 04:30:50 PM »
JoanK McCullough talks about Marx being in Paris for the 1848 unrest - he may just not have written his book yet however, this unrest was taking place in Germany, Italy, and the Austrian Empire which either the Americans were not aware of since news did not travel as it does today they may have been going on with their life much as we are and yet there is major upheaval in other nations of the world.

Whoops looks like he and Engels had written the Manifesto that was published in Germany in 1848
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #169 on: July 27, 2014, 09:29:41 PM »
Interesting, how much you can read in Louis-Philippe's face in that portrait, isn't it?  Bored with his role as the Citizen-King, when he was no longer interested in needs of the common citizen, Jean?   Or a stomach ache, upset because he's thinking about the dual role he's playing or the rich food in which he's been indulging with his upper class friends, JoanK?

Tomorrow, Barb will lead us to later in Louis-Philippe's reign in Paris.  Are we prepared for the last monarch in France?  How will the Americans react?  Will they even notice?

I found this...maybe it will help us to understand what happened to his reign that seemed to start out so well...

"It must suffice to note something of his personal attitude towards affairs and the general effects which this produced. For the trappings of authority he cared little. To conciliate the revolutionary passion for equality he was content to veil his kingship for a while under a middle-class disguise. He erased the royal lilies from the panels of his carriages; and the Palais Royal, like the White House at Washington, stood open to all and sundry who cared to come and shake hands with the head of the state. This pose served to keep the democrats of the capital in a good temper, and so leave him free to consolidate the somewhat unstable foundation of his throne and to persuade his European fellow-sovereigns to acknowledge in him not a revolutionary but a conservative force. But when once his position at home and abroad had been established, it became increasingly clear that he possessed all the Bourbon tenaciousness of personal power. "

Jonathan

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #170 on: July 27, 2014, 09:36:00 PM »
Karl Marx comess to Paris.  And is soon sent packing, I believe. Was it the Paris police who made him feel unwelcome? I've puzzled over the 'politician' mentioned in the first paragraph in the dust cover flap:

'The Greater Journey' is the enthralling, inspiring - and  until now, untold -story of the adventurous artists, writers, doctors, politicians, architects, and others of  high aspirations who set off for Paris in the years between 1830 and 1900, ambitious  to ecxel  in their work.

And we're getting a fine view of these visitors to Paris and their great efforts. But I get  the impression that McC would rather not  get too involved in French politcs, especially the Paris version. Americans in Paris had every reason to feel very smug about their own revolution of a generation earlier, with its guarenteed freedoms, unheard of in the old world of Europe. The French revolution just went on and on, through an endless cycle of republics and empires, with the First, the Second, the Third, the Fourth, the Fifth, with the Church, the Army, the Arisocracy The Bourgeoisie, The Working Class all contending for political advantage. Who can make sense of it. Karl Marx was eager to try.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #171 on: July 27, 2014, 11:44:22 PM »
Quote
Who can make sense of it.
Truer words were never said Jonathan as the old saying goes - preparing for next week was a challenge - every book or article I looked at or read had different citizen army numbers and ran the gamut of death numbers from as low as 84 - Dumas claims 200 - several say 800 - doing the math McCullough is suggesting 1800 plus 1200 of the king's forces - then there is a vast array of numbers for the royal army from 20k with an additional 40k added to as low as a total of 24k as well as, an array of numbers for the citizen army from 3,000 to 5,000 to 10,000 and one at 15,000 - I was beginning to wonder if they lumped the 1830 and 1848 numbers into one -

I am thinking McCullough used numbers he found in his researching the Americans mail and diaries - makes you wonder if any war numbers are accurate - just looking at the news today because of the cease fire folks are back into Gaza finding dead family members  and yet, the official number is shown at almost 1000 - who knows what is under all that rubble and so I am seeing this bit of French history as coming from whatever the various newspapers and word of the day declared that was found in the writings associated with the Americans and how accurate that is is anyone's guess.

Of course my opinion, or is it prejudice that sneaks in when I conclude the French were never known for accuracy however, Gallic drama has been up there with nobility, freedom, liberty and a few other desirable traits.  

Interesting Dumas plays both sides of the street supposedly behind the revolution however, he does say to his mistress something close to "give a match to the peasants and they will burn down all of Paris" then he rants on of all the valuables in Paris that would go up in flames - they may not have burned it down but they sure tore down so many beautiful buildings - what was that all about - I wonder if they even know - just crowds wound up that could not control themselves do you think? Well if McCullough does not even mention but one building destroyed who are we to judge why folks destroyed the newly built beautiful buildings of Paris 165 years ago.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #172 on: July 28, 2014, 09:58:15 AM »
I know one reason Louis-Philippe looks bored.  To pose for one of those early Daguerrotypes, you had to sit perfectly still for something like 10 minutes.

I've puzzled over the 'politician' mentioned in the first paragraph in the dust cover flap:

We've already met at least one politician--Charles Sumner.  And we absolutely mustn't leave this section without commenting on Sumner's remarkable epiphany.  Sumner had not had much contact with blacks; he had only seen slaves for the first time a few years before, and they seemed more like animals than people to him.  Then, in Paris, at a complicated philosophical lecture, he saw fashionably dressed black men in they audience.  They were treated as intellectual equals by the other members of the audience, talking with them about the lecture.  He concluded that the difference between blacks and whites in America was "derived from education, and does not exist in the nature of things."

How many people are willing to change their prejudicial notions just from observing real facts?  Not only that, but Sumner devoted a lot of his political career to efforts to get black people the rights they deserved as equal human beings.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #173 on: July 28, 2014, 02:09:46 PM »
Pat I wonder if instead of bored as if he needed more in his life it is the look of boredom that comes when you have had the stuffing's knocked out of you and your life becomes a mind game of what else he could have, should have done.

He really did a good job and gave more freedom or liberty as the French prefer to call it to many more in society as well as, arranged to make Paris the beautiful city we know today - trying to make sense out of what happened, finding himself in Britain with no hope of returning to France with dignity is a difficult pill to swallow I would think - everything in his life must appear gray therefore, he is living out his years. This is not a man who could take solace in gardening or watching his children grow.  

From the various political views during this time in history it appears he was in the middle of the perfect storm - the old culture and the new clashed with no clear desire for order from the new so that there were constant clashes as the new refined what they wanted. Reading Roman Catholic History and current church political views the church still smarts and sees this time in French History to be more damaging and a greater blow than the Reformation.

Cannot find it now but there was a virtual map that showed the number of monasteries, convents active in Europe before 1830 and the decrease of 90% over the next 20 years. Monks, priests, nuns caste out leaving the lessor educated country bumpkin type parish priest as the majority representation for the church. The loss of both manpower and property built up over a thousand years was monumental and could be likened to the Bolsheviks taking over Russia.

Side by side with the Church was the French Aristocracy. That connection was established before Charlemagne, back to Cloves in 486 whose Burgundian wife was instrumental in his conversion and then in 751 when Charles Martel's son, Pepin III made a power move and arranged for Pope Zacharias to make him King, thus the start of the Monarchy and Church mutually dependent. The scribes would be headed by the Chancellor while nobles and knights battled and developed wealth. All over Europe that 1000 year plus system was turned on its head in less than 100 years.

Just reviewing the history of it all and it astonishes me - the change in what we today expect in life, how western society functions that for us in America is just over 230 years and for France just over 160 years. So no wonder the church sees those 35 or so years of French history as a mortal wound and this is the wound that I bet Louis-Philippe felt deeply. He, like his uncle may not have been from a long line of noble blood but they carried out their role and duties with all the propriety of noble royalty.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanK

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #174 on: July 28, 2014, 03:54:26 PM »
BARB: on Karl Marx timing: I was trying to figure out if Marx was in Paris when our characters were there, so they could have "listened" to him. According to this:

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/bio/marx/lifeandwork.htm

He moved to Paris in 1843 and was kicked out in 1845. He did publish while there, an article. Later, he will write about some of the events in Paris we will read about in this new section, but if I understand correctly, he wasn't there or involved in them.

I admit the timing of the book is getting too much for me. I think of all the characters we've met as being there together, but they are coming and going at slightly different times. And now we have a major political upheaval, with the (probably clueless) Americans as spectators.

JoanK

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #175 on: July 28, 2014, 03:56:09 PM »
I'm majorly disappointed in Morse, with his jingoistic ideas. He is definitely NOT my kissing cousin!

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #176 on: July 28, 2014, 04:34:47 PM »
Golly don't you hate it when a whole post disappears - yes, I was agreeing with you that the characters in the book come and go - they do seem more intent on their learning mission than to engage in politics - but to do that they are at such a disadvantage not living with the history of a place - We do not read that anyone of those included in McCullough's book who visited the Panthéon, realized it was the original Abbey of St Genevieve noting that is where Clovis is laid to rest - I do not think they would know how to relate to what was going on except to think - we did that, been there, when the Declaration of Independence was written and included in our Constitution are some of the things France was fighting about in the streets.

Talk about age affecting your view of who you are based on where you live - that was one of the things that stirred me when I walked down the steps of several Medieval church buildings in Paris and in the South of France - they were so worn - stone steps curved and polished smooth by the feet of thousands of people for hundreds of years  - did not experience that in any of the buildings I visited in Britain or Germany or Switzerland - I was only in northern Italy and wondered if there were still buildings in use that were built and continually used since early Medieval times that show that similar wearing down of stone.

I guess McCullough can tell us waht Morse said and how he acted based on written material but we have no way of knowing why he thought as he did - it does seem extreme doesn't it Joan.

JoanK so many that write knowingly of this time in European History do keep bringing up the name of Marx above all others - somehow he was influencing the thinking of the day and since he was in Paris before 1848 it is an exercise that could be undertaken and probably has, that tells who in the revolution visited with him or had coffee in the same coffee house and therefore, the talk would have been about the change he saw for society.

Actually reading Marx and even Lenin they are not so subversive as we have grown to believe - it appears the communists ran with the philosophy tinkering with it as they went along.

Can you remember your first experience in the arts or hearing music or even reading a book that knocked your socks off - that profoundly changed your concept of wonderful?  
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #177 on: July 28, 2014, 05:45:40 PM »
I knew Paris was old but this is amazing - the city has been ruled for over 1500 years - get this...

http://www.athenapub.com/14merovingian-paris.htm
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #178 on: July 28, 2014, 08:33:06 PM »
It was Roman too, long before it was Christian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutetia

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #179 on: July 28, 2014, 09:59:55 PM »
Fabulous Pat - I forgot and while reading remembered we learned of St. Denis in grade school - but what made me laugh outloud and now I see - my head is spinning with the books I have read how those of us with a European heritage are only here today because our ancestors successfully lived through the Black Death.  

What is so funny to me is that when I hit the link to learn who were the other 14 Helpers other than Denis (started in the Rhineland it was believed the Fourteen Holy Helpers were a group of saints venerated together in Roman Catholicism because their intercession is believed to be particularly effective, especially against various diseases.) First on the list are the three holy maids - Saint Margaret with the dragon, Saint Barbara with the tower, Saint Catherine with the wheel. Generations of women in my family are named one of those three with Catherine being the most used.

My mother's mother - my grandmother - well her mother came from the Black Forest and her father from the Alsatian area - my father's family also have a lot of Catherines and my father's grandparents are from the Rhineland and one grandmother from someplace within easy walking distance of the Netherlands. All areas that would have experienced the plague.

Wow what we hold onto in family with no clue to its origination.

I wonder if Margaret Fuller had any clue to the value of her name  - she sure did not follow in the footsteps of Saint Margaret of Antioch is the patron of safe childbirth - where as Elizabeth Blackwell, (if you believe in Saints) furthered her knowledge to safer childbirth as if St. Maggie was looking over Lizzie's shoulder whispering - study hard and open a women's hospital back home in America.  
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Jonathan

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #180 on: July 28, 2014, 11:56:23 PM »
Barb, what a loss - that lost post of yours. I do admire your  perspectives, the fabulous  historical dimensions and complexities of the past. I can't believe the Roman establishment at Lutetia (Paris), 2000 years ago. The amphetheater looks like it might seat 50,000. How apt to compare the people who were out to destroy the Church to the Bolsheviks of revolutionary Russia.

JoanK, You make an interesting comment with:  " And now we have a major political upheaval, with the (probably clueless) Americans as spectators " Yes, they must have wondered about the meaning of it  and must have thought about it, after all, it was the best and the brightest going over there.

Pat, in fact suggests that "we've already met at least one politician, Charles Sumner," after I had failed to find one.

I can't think of Charles Sumner as a politician - yet. Perhaps he becomes one later. Of course, now I remember, from reading Team Of Rivals. Sumner eventually became Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations committee and Lincoln used to ask him for advice. But now, at first no one enjoyed Paris more than he did. He came to study. But the experience of Paris overwhelmed him. McC gives him the first word, to start Chapter I:

'The thought of going abroad makes my heart leap.'

Of course he studied hard. But we're told that 'found life in Paris exhilarating. Already at the Rouen Cathedral he could hardly contain his rapture. The Lourve caused his heart to start thumping. He climbed the 400 steps at Notre Dame to see all of 'old historical Paris'. He thought of himself as being on a scholary quest. But he also enjoyed the theater and the opera. Who would have time for the passing Parisian politics?

I'm puzzling over something else, relatively minor. We read, on page 94: For several years now, it had become the custom among a number of Americans in Paris to celebrate the Fourth of July at a grand patriotic banquet. At so it happened on July 4, 1832, with Morse presiding as President, and every one joining in toasts to George Washington and the new president of the United States, Andrew Jackson, King Louis-Philippe and the City of Paris, some twenty toasts in all.

In 1832 Jackson wasn't  a new president. He had been elected in 1828, and was about to run for a second term. Am I missing something? page 94


mabel1015j

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #181 on: July 29, 2014, 12:25:15 PM »
Growing up in a small town in Pa, i didn't have much exposure to an emotional arts experience. But as a teacher in a high school in Harrisburg, Pa in the sixties, i got a new education. The school had very good arts and music programs. One day when the orchestra was giving a spring concert that the whole school attended, a very slightly build sophomore, Jewish ( and i say that only to say that he was a student who in today's schools may be one who would be bullied) walked to the grand piano and with no music in front of him proceded to play the entire Rhapsody in Blue. (you may remember that it is about 15 mins long)

When he finished, this student body of largely lower class families gave him a standing ovation! Tears come to my eyes today, as they did that day, as i remember. It was the first time i ever heard R in B live. The students may not have known anything about the composition, but they understood that the piano player was very talented and that they had just witnessed a major accomplishment.

The school population was about 30% Black - most first generation from the South - 15% Jewish and many other Eastern European immigrant backgrounds. It was a moderate "inner-city" school. Many college classmates would exclaim when i would say i was teaching at Wm Penn HS, "aren't you afraid to be there?" It was a working class population and almost all of them had instilled in their children's minds that education was vitally important. There was never a day in the 5 yrs that i taught there that i was afraid.

Too bad many students no longer get the opportunity to hear, to play, or even learn about, good music in the schools.

Jean

mabel1015j

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #182 on: July 29, 2014, 12:42:58 PM »
A delightful piece of
Gottschalk's  with a fun and informative intro by Lincoln Mayorogra, not a bad pianist himself. ( i hope this link works, i don't  know the trick of creating a smaller url)

Banjo by Louis Gottschalk

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=louis%20gottschalk&source=web&cd=23&ved=0CKEBELcCMBY&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DcNsG5U4SqEY&ei=PszXU-qeI5KQyASGoYHIDQ&usg=AFQjCNESskf-B3NKXbt_5_n1XC07N5W6tw&sig2=fiXVNbAHOupZQBTOOs9R2g&bvm=bv.71778758,d.aWw


Are the Kardashians and all the "Housewives" shows the dumfooleries of today?

I absolutely love music on the internet, especially that i can find almost anything i want to hear on youtube. I have about 2 dozen playlists that i've made up with my favorite music on them. Last night i spent a lovely evening listening to Boots Randolph and his very soulful sax - i love a sax. I also listen you "programmed" music like Pandoro and Accuradio on which i listen to all kinds of music, but on Accuradio i especially like that i can listen to particular classical music composers. I do like Chopin and Mozart, soothing sounds.  :)

Jean

JoanK

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #183 on: July 29, 2014, 03:53:17 PM »
JEAN: are you in "The Classical corner" discussion on Seniors and Friends? We get together online every Sunday to listen to a classical music program one of our members narrates, and in between discuss our classical music experiences.

"http://www.seniorsandfriends.org/index.php?topic=1693.8490

 

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #184 on: July 29, 2014, 04:15:29 PM »
Geeee...took off one day to catch up with these two chapters and you've taken off without me!  I'm not complaining really!  This is fantastic!  So much to think about - and marvel at!
No wonder McCullough titled Chapter V "American Sensations"!  You've taken it one step further-

JoanK, I laughed at your description of the "clueless Americans" during the political upheavals.  They seemed to have no idea of the significance or insignificance of the events that seemed to flare up and then settle down right away.  Maybe the American visitors were unaware of the history of France...  Taken out of context, the frequent squirmishes  and changes in leadership must have been puzzling to visitors, but they seemed to be over as soon as they began...and life went on as usual.

I enjoyed reading the links to the history of Paris...PatH is right, the history goes back to the Romans...Remember the old  translation - "All Gaul is divided into three parts"?
Here's something that may be of interest...the last sentence takes you to Clovis...

In the 1st and 2d centuries AD, Gaul flourished through the export of food, wine, and pottery. In the 3d century it suffered devastating barbarian raids, however, and the Roman emperors' ineffective defense led to the creation c.260 of a short-lived kingdom of the Gauls. Beginning in 406 various Germanic tribes, especially Vandals, ravaged Gaul. The Visigoths (see Goths), nominally Roman allies, settled in Aquitaine, where they cooperated with the Roman general Flavius Aetius in the defeat (451) of the Huns. By 478 the Visigoths had also acquired Narbonensis. Meanwhile, the Franks took over northern Gaul, and the Alamani and Burgundians settled in the east. The last Roman territory in Gaul fell to Clovis, king of the Franks, in 486.

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #185 on: July 29, 2014, 04:37:44 PM »
Have you noticed the wave of Americans coming in the late 30's are a lot less circumspect than the first group, who seemed to be aware that their deportment reflected on their country.  This group was as McCullough called them, "sensational" - drawing attention to themselves.  Why do you think this is?  Do they feel more comfortable in Paris after the earlier group had paved the way and prepared them for what to expect?

Thom Thumb, Caitlin's Indian dancers and and Gottschalk's  performances that brought even Chopin to his feet were sensational - the Americans have become the talk of the town!  Thanks for the "Banjo" performance, Jean.  I was saddened to learn that his hectic schedule took its toll on his health and he died at 39.

There's so much here.  A good thing we have a week to share it all.
One quick question about the daguerrotype pictures  - PatH -yes, sitting still for 15-20 minutes posing for a picture would have made Louis-Phillippe grumpy.  I have a number of these metal images of ancestors.  Being the oldest in our family, it has become my responsibility to scan and label the old family photos. (I'm the only one who knows  who they are.)
Here's my question - can one scan a daguerrotype to my computer, as with other images?  I'd hate to spoil one by trying... Does anyone know?


Jonathan

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #186 on: July 29, 2014, 05:32:30 PM »
'the wave of Americans coming in the late 30's are a lot less circumspect than the first group,

That's an interesting observation. It may seem superficial, there's certainly more to it than that, but I can see the first wave being touristy and the later one entrepinurial.

Jean, it's pleasantly delightful just to imagine your magical, musical moment at  Wm Penn HS.

mabel1015j

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #187 on: July 29, 2014, 10:11:19 PM »
JoanK, i listen to as much of Don's Sunday afternoon program as i can. Sunday afternoons are usually interrupted, pleasantly, by family members, especially my dgt and oldest grandson. I do enjoy what i get to hear. I only occasionally comment on S&Fs during the program, but i'm often catching some of it.

Jean

Ella Gibbons

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #188 on: July 29, 2014, 11:09:30 PM »
The "curiosities" would not be appreciated today, would they?  Discrimination!  I even felt bad reading about Tom Thumb; just as I would feel if a midget was walking down the street and people stopped to stare!  

And can you imagine the outcry, the resentment of American Indians today of the exhibitions that Caitlin brought to Paris - tomahawks, scalping knives, rattles, drums, skulls, etc.  However he recognized that there "was little time left before a whole way of life woud vanish, corrupted or altogether destroyed, and which he was determined to rescue from oblivion with his brush and pen. "

Enlarge the gallery of Catlin's paintings at the bottom of this site:  (I wonder how true his paintings are the lives of the Indians, and how would you like to face that bull buffalo?)  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Catlin#

mabel1015j

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #189 on: July 30, 2014, 10:19:30 AM »
This morning in my Delancy newletter came a book that compliments the period we're reading about. It is about America, but i'm sure it wasn't much different in Paris.

"Today's selection -- from What Hath God Wrought by Daniel Walker Howe. In 1815, Americans were young, went barefoot, and didn't take baths:
 
"Life in America in 1815 was dirty, smelly, laborious, and uncomfortable. People spent most of their waking hours working, with scant opportunity for the development of individual talents and interests unrelated to farming. Cobbler-made shoes being expensive and uncomfortable, country people of ordinary means went barefoot much of the time. White people of both sexes wore heavy fabrics covering their bodies, even in the humid heat of summer, for they believed (correctly) sunshine bad for their skin. People usually owned few changes of clothes and stank of sweat.

 
 
"Only the most fastidious bathed as often as once a week. Since water had to be carried from a spring or well and heated in a kettle, people gave themselves sponge baths, using the washtub. Some bathed once a year, in the spring, but as late as 1832, a New England country doctor complained that four out of five of his patients did not bathe from one year to the next. When washing themselves, people usually only rinsed off, saving their harsh, homemade soap for cleaning clothes. Inns did not provide soap to travelers.
 
"Having an outdoor privy signified a level of decency above those who simply relieved themselves in the woods or fields. Indoor light was scarce and precious; families made their own candles, smelly and smoky, from animal tallow. A single fireplace provided all the cooking and heating for a common household. During winter, everybody slept in the room with the fire, several in each bed. Privacy for married couples was a luxury. ...  
 
"It was a young society: The census listed the median age as sixteen, and only one person in eight as over forty-three years old. Women bore children in agony and danger, making their life expectancy, unlike today, slightly shorter than that of men. Once born, infants often succumbed to diseases like diphtheria, scarlet fever, and whooping cough. One-third of white children and over half of black children died before reaching adulthood. The women had enough babies to beat these grim odds. To help them through labor, neighbors and trained midwives attended them. Doctors were in short supply, hospitals almost unknown. This proved a blessing in disguise, for physicians then did as much harm as good, and hospitals incubated infection. The upside of rural isolation was that epidemics did not spread easily."  
 
 

What Hath God Wrought: The Transformation of America, 1815-1848 (Oxford History of the United States)
Author: Daniel Walker Howe
Publisher: Oxford University Press

Jonathan

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #190 on: July 30, 2014, 05:44:43 PM »
A very interesting link, Ella, to the life and work of George Catlin. It seems to me that his Indian Gallery is a magnificent record of a proud and noble race. It must have made a great show. Much to gratify a natural curiousity about an alternate civilization. Much to admire in the proud bearing of a noble race. Much to learn or adopt in life skills and sports. How we used to love playing lacrosse.

William Fisk's portrait of Catlin certainly makes him out as a no-nonsense artist. Why, he even got the buffalo bull to pose for him in a proper manner.

I'm trying to imagine a painted American Gallery as described in Daniel Howe's America 1815-1850. It would not have been very flattering portrait. Enough to make a native shudder.

JoanK

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #191 on: July 30, 2014, 06:00:17 PM »
Jean: I remember Thoreau writing later than 1815 describing the once-a-year bath of some workmen, peeling of layer after layer of clothes that they had accumulated over the years.

Between that and the inevitable level of horse droppings (at least in the cities) people must have become almost immune to any sense of smell.

I wonder how much better France was. the fact that there were dandies doesn't necessarily mean they were clean.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #192 on: July 30, 2014, 06:12:51 PM »
I am confused.  What was the reason that the King, Louis-Philippe,fled the throne?  McC states that the French were always excitable.  "They will find fault with their rulers when there is cause and when there is not."  Sounds like Americans to me.

Tocqueville warned: (mentioned several times in the book and need I mention the long discussion of his Democracy in America here on SeniorLean?) - "We are sleeping on a volcano."

Alexis de Tocqueville:    http://www.tocqueville.org/tour.htm

I liked his country chateau.

One person mentioned religion; was this a reason for the riots?  Was it the inequality of poor vs rich?  Or was there one particular reason? 




mabel1015j

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #193 on: July 30, 2014, 08:51:26 PM »
Serendipity pops up again!

 I'm reading The Senator and the Socialite a book about the first Black Senator (Bruce of Miss.) during Reconstruction and discovered that the high school for Black students in Washington D. C. was named the Charles Sumner H.S. It later was named Dunbar H. S. and, of course, is now "integrated" altho its population is mostly Black students. It had a fine reputation and Senator Bruce's son, DIL, granddaughter and grandson all attended it before going on to Harvard and Radcliffe at the beginning of the 20th century.

Jean

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #194 on: July 30, 2014, 09:17:05 PM »
The story goes on, doesn't it, Jean?  Charles Sumner - abolitionist Senator...just years before the Civil War!

Jonathan's  "entrepreneurial" designation for the "sensationalists" works for me.  
Ella commented about how the "curiosities" would be regarded today.  Made me remember the carnival side shows...and how it bothered me to see those people exploited. "Freak" shows they were called!
Some of those observers must have reacted the same way in Paris, don't you think?

To be fair to George Catlin, he didn't bring those Indian families to Paris.  He was surprised to see them there.  I can't imagine how they got there by themselves,though, can you?

JoanP

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #195 on: July 30, 2014, 09:17:23 PM »

Ella, I can see why McCullough didn't attempt to get into the political details of the age...and why the Americans in Paris paid little attention to the frequent uprisings and barricaded streets.
It was such a swift turnover between Louis-Philippe's reign and the Emperor Napoleon's takeover.

"Louis-Philippe disappointed the country, and many of his supporters, when he began to govern as an autocrat. As France faced economic troubles, more uprisings took place throughout the 1830s. Louis-Philippe clamped down on dissent and put down worker insurrections. He soon gained a reputation for supporting the interests of the rich, and was resented by the poorer classes. During his reign, Louis-Philippe escaped from eight assassination attempts.

Abdication and Death

Following a period of economic stability in the 1840s, France experienced a depression in 1846. This trouble, combined with rejected demands for expanded suffrage, led to another revolution in 1848. Louis-Philippe abdicated the throne on February 24, fleeing to England as "Mr. Smith."

Louis-Philippe, having been unable to guide France through a tumultuous era, was the country's last king. After his abdication, France set up its Second Republic, while Louis-Philippe spent the remainder of his life in England. He was 76 years old when he died on August 26, 1850, in Claremont, Surrey."
http://www.biography.com/people/louis-philippe-9387069#exile-and-return-to-france

bellamarie

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #196 on: July 30, 2014, 09:37:58 PM »
Jean,
Quote
Are the Kardashians and all the "Housewives" shows the dumfooleries of today?

Not sure if "dumfooleries" is an actual word so I can't really answer your question, but I do watch the Kardashians and Housewives of Beverly Hills and New Jersey, and have to say all those I know who also watch call it our, "dirty little pleasure." :-[

I suppose it's really no different than Chapter Six, American Sensations, unlike the first Americans coming to be educated we now have Americans running over to Paris for the latest fashions, finest food, wines, and notoriety.  We are entertained by the lifestyle of the rich and famous, and fashions we can't really afford, nor would probably never wear, and yes, Paris is the place to go for that!

The spring of 1845, just a year following Morse's triumph at Washington, marked the appearance in Paris of a decidedly different variety of American, the first wave of American curiosities or exotics__"les sensations americaines"__ who were the cause of great popular commotion.

It began with P.T. Barnum__Phineas Taylor Barnum__ the flamboyant New York showman, and his tiny protege Tom Thumb, and not even Barnum, for all his extravagant claims, foresaw the sensation they caused.

I especially like this:

Then, suddenly, on the first official day of spring, March 21, the sun shone brilliantly and the boulevards were at once fully "animated" in the spirit of the season.  Crowds thronged the ChampsElysees.  Tout Paris paraded by in their elegant equipages, providing a first glimpse of the new spring fashions.

Yet Tom Thumb stole the show, sporting a top hat, riding in a no-less- fancy miniature carriage with four grey ponies and four tiny liveried coachmen.  The crowd along the avenue broke into cheers for "General Tom Pouce."

Because of the reception given, "the General" at Buckingham Palace, Barnum had no trouble arranging for a comparable appearance before King Louis-Philippe and his royal court at the Tuileries Palace on the evening of March 23.  Tom came attired this time as the perfect upper-bourgeois gentleman in a well-fitting black coat, white vest, and a glittering diamond shirt pin, and was at once the center of attention and delight.  Barnum had coached his "apt pupil" well.  When a lady (who undoubtedly had also been coached) asked Tom in English if he planned to marry, he replied, "Certainly." 
  "And how many have you been engaged to marry?"
"Eight, all told."
"But they tell me you are fickle and faithless."
"It is true."
"In England the ladies ran after you a great deal, and you let them kiss you."
"That was to avoid hurting their feelings."
"How many times have you been kissed?"
"A million."

________________

That could be a description of a visit of the Kardashians, or the Housewives in today's time.  They cause a commotion wherever they go and dress flashy and brilliant for attention, getting royalty to entertain them, for the sole purpose of pleasing the crowds and paparazzi who chase after them, when they are in their country.   Dumbfoolier, might be a perfect description for them, if indeed it were a word, but then they are rolling in the dough as did P.T. Barnum and Tom Thumb!    :)

"Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose"__"The more things change, the more they remain the same"__was the oft-quoted observation of a French writer, Alphonse Karr. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

pedln

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #197 on: July 30, 2014, 10:27:17 PM »
Were it not for The Greater JOurney, I would probably not pay any attention to an article like this.  But, I keep thinking of our American friends slowly walking in the gardens of the Louve and hope that they did not have to put up with : RATS

I've heard the name, but who are the Kardashians and what have they done in life to warrant so much attention?

I'm behind in my reading, taking advantage of cooler temps to be outside. Will catch up when we get back in the 90s again.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #198 on: July 31, 2014, 12:05:32 PM »
RATS - Mercy, Pedlin, those women are just standing watching them!  Would you stand there?

In answer to one of the questions posed in the heading Margaret Fuller, a reporter for the New York Tribune, classified three species of individuals coming to Paris: one that comes to spend money, indulge in Parisian culture; another that is conceited and profoundly ignorant; and the third class was the "thinking Americans, that wanted to learn and carry knowledge back to the new world. 

I've never been to Paris except for a day where I saw and admired the Eiffel Tower, which I understand was not admired by the French at the time it was being built.  More later about that.

But I would imagine I would fit into each of the three caregories listed by Fuller.  If I had money to spend I would delight in the culture of the country; I would come ignorant, but certainly not conceited and I would be willing to learn all I could.  However I have no talent whatsoever to carry back to the citizens of my country.  Would I could write a column for a newspaper such as Fuller did; only today perhaps a daily YouTube or blog???


Ella Gibbons

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Re: The Greater Journey by David McCullough ~July Book Club Online
« Reply #199 on: July 31, 2014, 12:26:01 PM »
YOu might enjoy, as I did, these images of Paris in 1820 that are in our National Gallery of Art:

http://www.nga.gov/content/ngaweb/features/slideshows/paris-in-transition-photographs-from-the-national-gallery-of-ar.html