Author Topic: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online  (Read 158625 times)

bellamarie

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #320 on: June 05, 2009, 11:20:53 PM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.





(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week  2: Through Chapter 16:
The Game's Afoot!


1. What an exciting section! So many clues, so many mysteries!! What do you want to talk about first?
2. Who do you think was in the blue and white sailboat?
3. What cult do you think Iusta belongs to?
4. What is the meaning of the three squares, first at the table and then in the mail? Who do you think is sending them?
5. What do you think is Maria's real interest in the project?
6. How many themes of rebirth and resurrection are there in this section?
7. Can you shed some light on any of the following?
----Parthenope
----Agrai Mysteries
----Oxyrhynchus Project
----Petronii
----The Sibyl of Cumae
----Isis/ Apuleius
----Wilhelmina Jashemski

8. This would make a great movie. Who would you cast in the parts? Who do you see as Simon, John Lyros, Elgin and Sophie particularly?
9. How would you characterize the atmosphere on Capri?
10. What do you think John Lyros is actually after?
11. What did you like best in this section?




The Rape of Persephone
Bernini 1621-24.
 Rome (Villa Borghese)




Discussion Leaders: Andrea & Ginny


Floor Plan of the Villa of the Papyri by Karl Weber, 1750-.




New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!




“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JudeS

  • Posts: 1162
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #321 on: June 05, 2009, 11:59:30 PM »
I just received my book two days ago and reading the pages assigned was a breeze in comparison to reading al  your erudite posts.

I would like to point out something that I noticed but didn't see in any of the posts.  The Author is introducing us to multiple present day religions : Sophie German Roman Catholic, Agnes Baptist Ely-Jewish. 
Then there is the local Cult-Church of Tetraktys.  Ely and sophie discuss the Wiccans, and the Jungian Archetype (Not a religion per se but a belief system).
?
Then we hear about the Pythagoreanists who ask themselves the three questions: Where Did I go wrong today?, What did I accomplish?,  What obligation did I not perform?

On page 49 we read of the Writer who has written ,"My life has been spared so I can finish my life project-The History of Religion which begins with the book Athenian Nights.

Page 90 introduces us totheSepolte Vive-the order of Nuns whoare called buried alive and slept in caskets.
Page 101 introduces us to the Dionysian rites and the veneration of the phallus. Other strange and cruel groups(so called religions are also mentioned).

Is the author setting us up to not be shocked at the stranger religous rights that are to come or is she saying be aware of the many belief systems and do not judge the?. They are all variations on the need for a belief system and are leading us into a maze .

I'm hooked !


bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #322 on: June 06, 2009, 08:37:43 AM »
Jude...I was noticing the different religions and the strange thing is that Sophie resents being raised German-Catholic.  She quit going to church at age 10 or 12. On pg 28 Clare is asking Sophie if she is sure she knows what she is doing (keeping the  pregnancy) and says, "Or was it I wanted to relive my mother's story, only this time keep the baby and not let some crazy religious fanatics get ahold of it thus rewriting my own childhood crisis of abandonment."

The thing that hit me when I read this paragraph is the words crazy religious fanatics.  I am Italian-Catholic and my husband is German-Catholic, and we know many others of this race/faith and have never been referred to with these words.  But getting back to your question, I think the religions are all mentioned so we are aware of the many different kinds, setting us up to the strangeness of the cult so many of the characters are a member of.  I think people see other religions as crazy and fanatics when it is extreme, but the Catholic faith to my knowledge has never been considered extreme because of their beliefs of protecting the unborn there for not allowing abortion.  Catholicism may be considered strict in some areas, but compared to many other faiths such as the tetrakty it would be mild.  So I am scratching my head on this view.  But then much about this book has me going ??????huh?????

Ciao for now...........................
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #323 on: June 06, 2009, 09:33:33 AM »
Quote
Deems "Has anyone else noticed that Sophie gets over the murders
(and her own wounding) very quickly?  I don't mean physically.  I mean psychologically. "
 I also agree with you and Bellamarie, and there's been a lot more psychological trauma too, much more than a lot of people could bear without
something going on:
  I'm reading some of the posts, avoiding those like the quote from pg. 98. I'm not that far yet. But about the above quote, it seemed to me that the psychological trauma of the loss of her baby, and all that happened at that time, was so great that the impact of the current events is diminished by comparison.

PEDLN, actually Texans come in all varieties, just as in any other place. Texas does have a fascinating history, tho'.  The 'Texas brags'stuff is mostly tongue-in-cheek and entertainment for the tourists. Nevertheless, some of the claims are true and actually happened.

Oh, I definitely want to come back and read some of these wonderful posts after I've caught up.  I don't want to 'spoil' the story as I read, but I saw enough in these posts to want to read more.

"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Steph

  • Posts: 7952
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #324 on: June 06, 2009, 12:07:18 PM »
        Hmm, I like both Elgin and John.. They are both different, but seem intent on what they are doing and why. Having too much money makes John look at life a bit differently.
Sophie and the hallucinations bother me..Somone already mentioned that she did not think fever hallucinations were like that and I agree.. Dreamlike states however.. Hmm, could Sophie use the vivid mental pictures are another way to enter the dream world and not really be hallucinating in the classic stage..
Stephanie and assorted corgi

ginny

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #325 on: June 06, 2009, 01:45:28 PM »
I like the way we're all over the place about this, and the characters!

Welcome Jude! Love your reference to all the different religions, good one!


--------



Bellamarie and Deems don't see Sophie as free. Bellamarie says

"No, I do not feel Sophie is free.  She is like a caged bird with all the allusions, delusions, past and present issues to deal with.  I see  her wanting to know Iusta was freed, so she can believe she will find her freedom as well."  

I'm having some trouble with the freedom issue and Sophie but I'll hold on and see what happens!

-----------------

Pat thank you for your crumbs,  loved the Sophie meaning and I agree with you about the drugs, and the state they can induce,  not to mention this person is on Oxycontin AND Shiner Bock, it's a miracle she did not think her own toes were grass and try to cut them. No joke, that's a dangerous combination. Andrea can tell us more about this when she returns.

 Also thank you for your mention of  the word TONE. I have been wanting to ask what the tone is since we started. What is it, would you all say?


--------------

Bellamarie said:   I don't like a lot of her qualities.  I am a woman who sees a problem and tackles it straight away and finds a solution or a way to accept it in my life.  She who hesitates, is lost...

I think that's exactly what she's trying to do!! What do the rest of you think? Or do you think she's running from the problems? A lovely character to explore!  

-------------

Jude S!  Another great point about multiple present day religions being introduced, good one!  I'm hooked, too, welcome again!

I liked this question from Jude:

Is the author setting us up to not be shocked at the stranger religious rights that are to come or is she saying be aware of the many belief systems and do not judge the?. They are all variations on the need for a belief system and are leading us into a maze .

I don't know! With all this swirling excitement, I'm about ready for anything!  Glad to have you!


-----------------

HO! That's right, Babi is an actual Texan! Hahahaa I forgot that. Is there somewhat of a "can do" attitude there?


------------------

Stephanie, that's an interesting question: Hmm, could Sophie use the vivid mental pictures are another way to enter the dream world and not really be hallucinating in the classic stage..

Good question. I wonder if creative people sometimes enter into a sort of day dream type of  parallel existence? I would not know, not being creative, but I think I have read about it in others.

--------------


Here at the end of the last chapter in our section we've got a funicular and a strange twist  on the  Demeter myth, we might need to look at the main players appearing here in connection with the  (fictional) Villa Della Notte: Demeter, Persephone,, Hades and Dionysus. PLUS Sirens. The Sirens here might bear watching since it appears Sophie herself has gone to the island of the sirens, Capri.

Also mentioned several times is the funicular in Naples. I've found a photo of the funicular in Naples but it's at the station and  looks like the trams in the Atlanta airport, actually, can anybody find one of it actually ascending or descending something?

Here's the old one that used to go up to Vesuvius, believe it or not! The first one ever, I think. (They are also considering one at the new complex being built at  Stabiae)...

 This is where the song Funiculi,  Funicula came from.  It operated from the late 1800s till I think the eruption in WWII.

Here's the one in Montmartre, in Paris,  this is one fun ride: http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/fr/funicular/Paris/pix.html  I'd like to find a like photo of the one in Naples, tho, other than in the station where it appears just like the Atlanta airport shuttle. There's also one on Capri: http://www.capriweb.com/Capri/Transport/Funicular nice view: http://cruises.about.com/od/mediterraneancruises/ig/Capri-Photo-Gallery/capri005.htm

Don't you like the old Vesuvius one and the Montmartre better? hahaaa

Still looking for photo.

An exciting start for any book here in the first 112 pages!

I will stir the pot a bit more by saying I see Sophie as strong, a person who keeps going, keeps plugging, no matter what (incident with lawn mower, which I thought was an hallucination and is not). Determined. Maybe not over emotional, or letting herself be,  because of past experiences, maybe burying self in her work, saying on the face of it "it is what it is," but the ghosts of her past keep intruding.


JudeS

  • Posts: 1162
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #326 on: June 06, 2009, 03:13:30 PM »
Ginny
In regards to your remark that Sohie is a strong character.  Yes she is strong but in her strength is her weakness.

Mowing the lawn after coming out of the hospital is close to lunacy.

Going on that long trip in Naples, with a half a lung still not working is the same kind of lunacy.

These kind of actions make her a flawed heroine who won't give up but is so in need of proving her strength that she endangers her life and then is saved by folk who are either kind or more aware of danger than she is. Her need to constantly prove her self worth may get her into some serious hot water.

Eloise

  • Posts: 247
  • Montreal
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #327 on: June 06, 2009, 03:22:30 PM »
This is a mystery novel, and I like it better as I read ahead. Improbable things don’t bother me as much now that I am in the thick of the action and action there is.

Ginny,

“Good question. I wonder if creative people sometimes enter into a sort of day dream type of  parallel existence? I would not know, not being creative, but I think I have read about it in others”

I have several members of my family who are very creative and to me they are not always realistic in their goals. But they are entertaining and fun to be with.

http://www.funiculaire-quebec.com/en/PhotosFuniculaire.htm

I always take the funicular when I go to Quebec city, it’s a lot of fun and a little scary too..

I am glad I kept reading because now the novel has taken a whole new slant. The characters are more in tune with their personality and their experience, and they relate to situations in a more appropriate manner. The narrator seems more objective now.

I don’t trust Elgin, Sophie would certainly not be happy with him, she deserves better. Ely and Dale are caught up in a sect, a sect often fits quirky types of personalities. A sect is dangerous.

John for a change is not tall, blond, blue eyed, at last, someone normal, but violet eyes? No way. But he is beyond rich and I wonder who he is going to fall in love with, Sophie or Agnes. At his level I think he is serious enough to prefer Sophie as Agnes still has too much growing up to do before she becomes interesting for someone like John.  Elgin, if he can't reclaim Sophie might claim Agnes, but for how long? Poor girl.

I think we have not heard the last of Dale and Ely and the Tetraktys. This is a very dense and complicated story with many leads taking us in many different directions, I won’t try and guess the outcome, it can be anything.

I love the description of the scenery. If I was in that part of Italy right now the sheer beauty of nature would overwhelm me, erasing every thought for a while. I will be close to there next September and I wonder if I can take a side trip to go and see Capri.

winsummm

  • Posts: 461
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #328 on: June 06, 2009, 09:29:53 PM »
how is sophie weak? hmm let's see.

she puts up with Ely's advnetures into mysticism without giving it even the attention she gives to when in the bookstore with charles although it is destroying their relationship.

she just assumes that he's smarter than she is and so he must be right in whatever he does.

ely's parents seem to be pretty typical of a nice jewish family, and I know that one from experience, but he makes negatives about all their attributes. need an essay here and that's too much. so that's an issue especially since he thinks he has to be his perfect brother and that will solve everything. he's pretty mixed up and she doesn't say anything about it. jut goes along

Iusta has a plan and is willing to sacrifice for it. She just goes along with, changing her role as needed but sticking to her plan. i am getting ahead here, maybe? That is the trouble with reading ahead.

sophie is easily swayed and all but haullusinates possible alternatives . . . sorta sick. There is more only I'm more intuitive than factual in my sense of her confusion and disorientation.

I wouldn't want to be sophie who is observative but doesn't act on her observations. . ,John's  violate eyes bother me too as I guess they are meant too, a touch of strangeness here, but she just thinks they are kinda romantic. John seems to be otherwise normal, so why are they even there in the story???hmmm strange. . . .

speaking of ""creative" people.  Geocities sold out to another firm, JIMDO,  which rescued my webside materiels but in a very disorganized way. I am better organized than they are. here's the new addy for anyone who is interested.

claire

http://artetal.jimdo.com/artetal/
thimk

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #329 on: June 06, 2009, 10:24:53 PM »
Ginny...I don't really see how Sophie was trying to attack any of her problems.  Remember she turned the invitation down the first time to go with Elgin to Italy because she did not believe he could decipher the scrolls.  She did  not take action when she saw Agnes afraid,  she even questions herself for not being more caring and responsive.  pg. 27
Quote
"Could I really assign the moment of error to ignoring Agnes's problems with Dale?  Wasn't there an underlying reason for my callous disregard of her emotional crisis?  A root cause?"  


And when she went to Agnes's dorm, again she remains mute instead of talking with her or even saying something to Sam.  Why did it matter if it would have upset her?  She is the teacher/mentor, isn't it her place to be more proactive?  Why not get counseling if she is struggling with her past, causing her present to be stagnant?  Its as though she is going through life in a haze.  I don't even see where the narrator has indicated she buried herself in her work. If I had half the issues she has lived with, being an intelligent person as I can see she is, I would have gotten help.  I just feel like I have not been able to find a way to connect with Sophie on any emotional level.  I'm not so sure I have read once where she has used the word "love" for any one person or thing to this point.

I don't mean to be too hard on my observations of Sophie, but I just feel this distant, unattached person.  She sees and notices situations in her life and others, and refuses to engage.  Hopefully in the next pages we will see something different.  I thought I saw a glimpse of her emotions on page 112, when she looked into Elgin's eyes and felt the serene feelings approaching the island of sirens.  I almost thought I could feel her feeling love for Elgin, but then I sense she has been waiting for Ely to one day return.

Ciao for now..............
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Deems

  • Posts: 252
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #330 on: June 06, 2009, 11:03:53 PM »

bellamarie says, "Why not get counseling if she is struggling with her past, causing her present to be stagnant?  Its as though she is going through life in a haze.  I don't even see where the narrator has indicated she buried herself in her work. If I had half the issues she has lived with, being an intelligent person as I can see she is, I would have gotten help.  I just feel like I have not been able to find a way to connect with Sophie on any emotional level." [emphasis added]

I agree.  She seems disconnected to me.  I can identify with her as a professor and that's about it.  At this point I see her as a shell of a person with a PhD.

Gumtree

  • Posts: 2741
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #331 on: June 07, 2009, 06:02:04 AM »
Such juicy posts! So much to think about in them and ultimately in the book as well.

Quote
:  She seems disconnected to me

You're right on Deems - Disconnected is the word

I find it hard to second-guess the characters so early in the novel. I don't see Sophie as being 'caged' as suggested by Bellamarie but rather I think she is badly wounded by her past - loss of mother, no known father, her grandparents, Ely and more especially perhaps the loss of the baby. I think the miscarriage was more important than Ely's desertion and so she hasn't room to really notice what Ely is doing and not doing- especially in relation to emotional support for her.

I think perhaps the shooting is something of a wake-up call for her and that after she comes home from hospital she decides to get on with things - mowing the lawn, for instance.- not the best choice but at least she's taking some action and quickly realised that

this isn't what the pulmonologist meant by light activity. I'm drenched in sweat within minutes and my arms and back feel as if I'm pushing Sisyphus's rock and not a ten-pound manual-reel mower. Still, it feels amazingly good to be doing something physical and to the see the results in each freshly mown path I clear. For the first time in weeks -since the sky exploded over my head in the conference room- I feel firmly tethered to the earth (my emphasis)

Even so, it's not all over for her and she still has the effects of her impending illness to contend with as well as getting back into some kind of normality in her life instead of, as I see it, brooding on the past so much.

I'll be glad to move on into the next section to find out more about Sophie.


Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

Gumtree

  • Posts: 2741
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #332 on: June 07, 2009, 06:27:51 AM »
Ginny said
Quote
I wonder if creative people sometimes enter into a sort of daydream type of parallel existence...

I certainly don't pretend to be a 'real' artist - whatever that is -  but I do paint and draw etc. and this happened a couple of days ago...

I was poking around my shelves searching out books which might have references to Herculaneum and one thing led to another ... several hours later I found myself in my studio deeply immersed in 'creating' a new art work based on Julius Caesar. I wasn't in a dream state - I had intended to do a couple of quick charcoal sketches but then the work took over and ...time passes...I'm somehow standing at an easel, totally absorbed and in the midst of a painting that has taken on a life of its own. It doesn't always happen like that but it does happen and the results can be either a success or an abject failure...

I've been working on the Caesar ever since despite the fact that other unfinished works and more importantly, commissioned paintings with looming deadlines,  are languishing for want of attention.

 I begin each session daunted by what I know I must do but after a few minutes Caesar kicks in and I'm in what Ginny terms a 'parallel existence' though I would never have called it that myself.
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

Gumtree

  • Posts: 2741
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #333 on: June 07, 2009, 06:37:45 AM »
Ginny : I must tell you that I've just collected a copy of  David Sider's book, The Library of theVilla Dei Papiri. Haven't had much time yet to do more than flick the pages  -but it looks great and can't wait to have a quiet read - maybe this evening....

One of the first things I saw was the photo of Goethe's watercolour of the eruption of Vesuvius in 1787...such a treasure trove...but the chapter on the Form of the Book in Greece and Rome has this  wonderful opening sentence Writing takes many forms. I know I'm going to just love this book - thanks for recommending it Ginny.

Sadly, I can't seem to find the one by J. J. Deiss anywhere locally.
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

ginny

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #334 on: June 07, 2009, 09:55:42 AM »
You will love that, Gum. I am fascinated by books, to this day I don't open one that I try to figure out how it is bound.  I must be nuts, but I do spend a good bit of time studying how it is put together, I've always wanted to see a demonstration on same. One time in the big museum in Munich, I got my chance, they started with  the making of paper and you moved around and went from the beginning to the end, absolutely fascinating. All in German, which I know about as well as  Urdu (nothing).

 On the plus side: Fascinating. I believe I could make paper myself.
On the minus side: We were a small group of about 20 and the man making the paper wanted to engage us all, he kept shooting pointed questions at moi (apparently I look German) and being slightly puzzled when I did not answer. I sure got a lot out of that tho, and a souvenir of paper!

Gum,

Quote
I begin each session daunted by what I know I must do but after a few minutes Caesar kicks in and I'm in what Ginny terms a 'parallel existence' though I would never have called it that myself.

I hope you will share the finished work with us for the Latin classes reading Caesar, what a fabulous thing!

Still, it feels amazingly good to be doing something physical  and to the see the results  in each freshly mown path I clear. For the first time in weeks -since the sky exploded over my head in the conference room- I feel firmly tethered to the earth (my emphasis)

This is a good point, Gum, and I somehow (I believe this IS a magic book, shape shifting, I've now read it three times and I keep missing stuff, maybe something I read sends me off in this or that mental direction and I miss the facts.....hmmm....somewhat like  Sophie?

Anyway I can relate to the above here, in spades, as a result of the recent broken leg and other strange complications.

On the disconnect, see next post:

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #335 on: June 07, 2009, 09:56:47 AM »
 I managed to spend much of Saturday catching up on my reading and also reading the posts from June 1 on.  GINNY, I was so excited to read about the
new developments in deciphering old finds; I can't wait to hear more about that.  My one complaint about this book is that I'm more interested in what they find in the dig than I am in the contemporary story.

 
Quote
These kind of actions make her a flawed heroine who won't give up but is so in need of proving her strength that she endangers her life and then is saved by folk who are either kind or more aware of danger than she is. Her need to constantly prove her self worth may get her into some serious hot water.

  Sophie hasn't shown a great deal of common sense in her actions, and I agree it is going to get her into trouble, JUDE.  Do you suppose her attitude arises from her need to disprove the predictions her grandparents' were constantly drumming into her...that she was worthless 'like her mother'?

I agree, ELOISE. The Tetraktys are a central theme in this story; we'll definitely
be hearing more about them.
  
I think Sophie's inability to concentrate, focus, be firm, is largely due to the fact
that she has been sick and is not fully recovered.  I'm sure we've all
experienced times like that.  Ordinarily, she must be a person who can do all those things, or she wouldn't have attained her present scholastic level and expertise. I
suspect Goodman is using Sophie's weakened physical condition to lay the groundwork both for her weakened mental acuity and things to come.

BELLAMARIE, I don't think it was Agnes that changed Sopie's mind. It was Elgin showing her what that computer program could do, and then seeing that 'Iusta' was mentioned in the scrolls found. That was more temptation than she could resist.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

ginny

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #336 on: June 07, 2009, 10:09:48 AM »
On the "strength" or lack of same and the disconnect of Sophie: Deems, JudeS, bellamarie, are you all saying that in order to be "strong," she has to face and deal with "her problems?"

Lovely tack here.

You've mentioned:

-----I think the miscarriage was more important than Ely's desertion and so she hasn't room to really notice what Ely is doing and not doing- especially in relation to emotional support for her.

-----I agree.  She seems disconnected to me.  I can identify with her as a professor and that's about it.  At this point I see her as a shell of a person with a PhD.

------
 I'm not so sure I have read once where she has used the word "love" for any one person or thing to this point.


(That's a great point and that  one makes me think that you'd like to see more emotion from her? About something? Anything?  And since we lack that emotion should we conclude she is then "weak?" )

------
I don't really see how Sophie was trying to attack any of her problems.


Does she HAVE to attack "problems" in order to be "strong?"

-----
I wouldn't want to be sophie who is observative but doesn't act on her observations. . ,


-------Yes she is strong but in her strength is her weakness.

-------These kind of actions make her a flawed heroine who won't give up but is so in need of proving her strength that she endangers her life and then is saved by folk who are either kind or more aware of danger than she is. Her need to constantly prove her self worth may get her into some serious hot water

What a fascinating conversation. So is it safe to say that most of us feel that to be "strong" involves a proactive personality who...."deals" with problems like a husband who has deserted her (how? by hiring a detective?) or the loss of a baby (how?) or who butts in to the lives of others (Agnes?) What would you have done in the case of Agnes, who, I personally thought was remarkably not forthcoming?

Disconnect? Lack of emotional involvement? What interesting points of view,  how do the rest of you feel about Sophie so far? Let's watch her character, fabulous discussion.

Are we actually saying we resent now that we have her inmost thoughts, the lack of a sort of emotion revealed?

Eloise, love that funicular in Quebec, do try to get to Pompeii if you have not been, Capri is an easy boat ride from Naples, or especially  Sorrento.

------
The narrator seems more objective now.
Oh look at this, Eloise has noted a change here,  in the coming section, let's be alert for changes tomorrow , in all characters.

Something John Lyros said at the very end of this first section startled me and made me ask huh? Why? I'm going back to read that and then try to find Demeter and the sirens and see how they come together, these old myths may have 100 iterations, I want to find that particular one.

What last thoughts do you have on this first section today as today is our last day  of  the first week, what a joy your thoughts have been?

Is there anything you've learned you did not know in these first 112 pages?

What's the "take away" as Mippy put it which you got from this first section?


ginny

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #337 on: June 07, 2009, 10:15:23 AM »
I KNEW you'd catch up, Babi! (is that being a Texan? hahaha)

I do think you are correct here: I think Sophie's inability to concentrate, focus, be firm, is largely due to the fact
that she has been sick and is not fully recovered.  I'm sure we've all
experienced times like that.  Ordinarily, she must be a person who can do all those things, or she wouldn't have attained her present scholastic level and expertise. I suspect Goodman is using Sophie's weakened physical condition to lay the groundwork both for her weakened mental acuity and things to come.


I agree in that  a lot of the opening pages take place after she has sustained a wound...she's in recuperation stage. I sort of imagine that she sees things as thru a veil or haze  like most people do when recuperating, and let's face it, most patients center on themselves not those around them.

This is another good question: .  Do you suppose her attitude arises from her need to disprove the predictions her grandparents' were constantly drumming into her...that she was worthless 'like her mother'?

What would be the effect, if a person had heard this all their lives, on their character, do you think? This is,  or so I gather, quite common in some families. Would it tend to make you  more...what?

  I am unclear as to what it actually is her mother has done that was so awful, is there a father figure here? I just realized I...that I need to go BACK and reread!! :)

Tomorrow we hit the new pages!

Deems

  • Posts: 252
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #338 on: June 07, 2009, 10:30:13 AM »

Gum--I just love how you come in the middle of my night and leave such interesting posts.  I too would love to see your portrait, drawing, sketch of Julius Caesar!  Somewhere along the line I missed that you are an artist in addition to all your other attributes.  Keep coming in; it's so fun to read your posts in the (my) morning.

Babi says, "My one complaint about this book is that I'm more interested in what they find in the dig than I am in the contemporary story."  

Oh me too, me too.  It seems to me that this novel is plot driven, not character driven, and that there are two plots, the one about the ancient dig and the one about Sophie.  And I'm only interested in the one about the dig.  I'll wait for the next section to make any permanent decisions, but I think the problem occurs with the first person narrator--and the double plot.

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #339 on: June 07, 2009, 10:48:35 AM »
Babi.....
Quote
BELLAMARIE, I don't think it was Agnes that changed Sopie's mind. It was Elgin showing her what that computer program could do, and then seeing that 'Iusta' was mentioned in the scrolls found. That was more temptation than she could resist.

You may have missed my prior post, I had mentioned I felt it was Elgin who convinced Sophie to go with his proof they could read the scrolls with the new technology.  I also said later, I felt for some reason I felt Agnes was enticing Sophie to go.  I have a little suspect as to why??

I have begun the next pages and so many notes taken I feel like Sherlock Holmes.  Lots to share but must go to church.  Unlike Sophie,  I find great solace in having a Catholic religion.  lolol

Ciao for now......
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Steph

  • Posts: 7952
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #340 on: June 07, 2009, 11:25:09 AM »
Just finished the second week. Not sure when it kicks in, either today or tomorrow. It just blew me away. Whew.. Stories into stories and mysteries turning on themselves..
Sophie.. I still have problems with the fact that from the very first page, Eli was on her mind. Had he stayed on her mind for however long it had been?? She obviously has strong emotions still. No idea why, since he sounds like a first class creep.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

JudeS

  • Posts: 1162
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #341 on: June 07, 2009, 02:26:11 PM »
Two non-psychological facts interested me in this first section.

The choice of the name Elgin fascinated me. Why Elgin?  This is the name of the first mass produced wtch in the USA.  Starting at the end of the Civil War until the end of WW2.  At the site for Elgin(in Ill.) there are numerous restoration groups for old buildings.
Can anyone else add to this or have a clue about why the name Elgin was chosen?

The other new fact that simply amazed me was the common use of Opium at this time and place (Pompeii and Herculaneum). Mainly used for sexual acts but well known as a soporific.  I looked up the history of Opium and was blown away.  Here are a few of the amazing facts.

3400BC-Opium is first cultivated in Lower Mesopotamia.

1300BC- Egyptians of Thebes cultivated the poppy and developed a flourishing trade in Opium.

1100BC-Raised on Cyprus where new instruments were developed to cull the juice.

400BC-Hyppocrates, the faather of medicine, acknowledges its use as a narcotic and styptic but dismisses its magical attributes.

330AD-Introduced to Persia and India.

400AD-Introduced to China.

The article on Google goes on and on and more and more fascinating facts regarding this substance and its use are revealed.


bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Questions for Carol
« Reply #342 on: June 07, 2009, 02:33:07 PM »
QUESTIONS FOR CAROL

JudeS...I wondered why Ely and Elgin.  Let's ask Carol and see what she says.  We haven't heard from her for awhile.  I wonder what she thinks of all our post?

Questions for Carol......
Where did you come up with the names for the characters in this book? 
Do any of the names have any significance or are they coincidences to their meanings? 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Deems

  • Posts: 252
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #343 on: June 07, 2009, 03:26:40 PM »

JudeS asks, "The choice of the name Elgin fascinated me. Why Elgin?"

Just a guess.  I think there might be a connection to Thomas Bruce, Earl of Elgin who got permission from the Ottoman Empire to remove pieces from the Acropolis.  From 1801-1805, his people removed about half of the statues from the Parthenon.  Eventually they wind up in the British Museum and are called the "Elgin Marbles."  "Elgin," in the case of the Earl, is pronounced with a hard G as in "go."  I looked Elgin up on the internet because I remembered seeing the Elgin Marbles in London.

Your information on opium is most interesting.  Those poppies have been with us for a long time, haven't they?

Opium smoking figures prominently in Dickens' Mystery of Edwin Drood, the novel he was in the midst of writing when he died. 

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #344 on: June 07, 2009, 05:18:13 PM »
Deems...
Quote
Your information on opium is most interesting.  Those poppies have been with us for a long time, haven't they?

Yes, indeed and who knew, opium from poppies?  But then again many plants and flowers have hallucinatory drugs in them.  Just yesterday AOL had a picture of my favorite flower the hydrangea and said it can kill dogs because it has cyanide in it.  Here I just planted two beautiful plants last year, near the very spot my dog hangs out in our back yard.  Egads!  I will be digging them up soon, and replanting them in a spot my dog does not go around.  I think there should have to be labels on all plants and flowers to make consumers aware of what they are bringing home.

This next section of the book was very enlightening and I can't wait to see what everyone has to say.  My theories and suspicions are all revealing themselves.  I have some really juicy stuff to share with you all tomorrow.  Just like George, I will leave you here wondering.

Ciao for now........... 

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #345 on: June 07, 2009, 06:04:39 PM »
Gumtree....
Quote
several hours later I found myself in my studio deeply immersed in 'creating' a new art work based on Julius Caesar. I wasn't in a dream state - I had intended to do a couple of quick charcoal sketches but then the work took over..

Wow!  I am impressed we have an artist among us.  I would love to see your work Gumtree.  For so long you have been the nightly tooth fairy in my image, suppose you could paint one for us? 

I truly am blessed to have come across Seniorlearn a few years ago by accident.  The people here are so multi- faceted, multi-talented and seem to have much education, experience and travel behind them.  If ever there is a group to solve this mystery, it is this group.  Carol I hope to hear from you soon.

Ciao for now.......
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

ginny

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #346 on: June 07, 2009, 09:05:01 PM »
Great thoughts here today! I finished the second part absolutely breathless and can't wait to hear what you have to say so put up the heading early. :)

Stephanie, I agree: Just finished the second week. Not sure when it kicks in, either today or tomorrow. It just blew me away. Whew.. Stories into stories and mysteries turning on themselves.. We start in the morning!

Deems, thank you for the Elgin supposition. I did not know it was pronounced El Gin with the gin hard. That's like Carnarvon , (he of the King Tut discovery with Howard Carter).  I can never pronounce that correctly, there are two ways to say it actually.

Jude, thank you for that interesting history of opium in the ancient world. Are the "poppies" we're talking about the red ones you see everywhere there?

Bellamarie, thank you for such a nice post, I agree, our readers are really sharp and very special. The second section blew me away also, can't wait to hear what you all made of IT! :)


Frybabe

  • Posts: 10032
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #347 on: June 07, 2009, 10:34:09 PM »
Refresh my memory somebody. I thought the lawsuit regarding Iusta was between Petronia Vitalis and Calatoria Themis. Here is an article that says that the lawsuit was between Iusta and Themis. http://www2.ulg.ac.be/vinitor/rida/2000/metzger.pdf
I haven't read it all yet, but so far it is kind of interesting. It mentions 18 documents which include lists of witnesses, and there is a lawyer who switched allegiances from Themis to Iusta. Oh yes, and the magistrate in Herculaneum lacked jurisdiction, so the lawsuit had to be referred to Rome.

Gumtree

  • Posts: 2741
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #348 on: June 07, 2009, 11:19:26 PM »
I assumed Elgin was named because of the Elgin Marbles and put it down to  a little whimsy on the part of our author Carol - as I said earlier the name struck me as being so apt for a man involved in archaeology.

The Greek authorities would dearly love to have the Elgin Marbles back in their keeping. I think that at the time, Lord Elgin had permission to ship them to England but the disputes over ownership still go on

Frybabe: Thanks for Iusta's lawsuit - I haven't read it all yet but will do so later in the day.

Bellamarie:  Don't be impressed - trying to paint is no big deal, just a lot of hard work and messy too - think of all the clothes I've ruined because I was too enthusiastic to worry about changing before I got stuck into it.  >:(

Deems: You are too kind but your words cheered me tremendously. Thank you!

Now, to get back to my Caesar
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

pedln

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  • SE Missouri
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #349 on: June 07, 2009, 11:41:21 PM »
That's interesting, Margie, and so it the link you provided, though i must admit I got hung up on some of the legalese.  I had been thinking that Iusta was entirely fictional.  But apparently not. It sound's like Vitalis, the mother, had died, and that's why Iusta had to go to court. Here's a link about Goodman and how she happened onto Iusta.  I don't think there are any spoilers in it.

Goodman finds Iusta

Ginny, what exactly is a vadimonium -- bail?

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #350 on: June 07, 2009, 11:44:55 PM »
I feel like I don't know where to begin...there is so much going on in these pages.  Since I was familar with the Cumaen Sibyl from reading Margaret Drabble's book "Seven Sisters", I decided to begin here.  I found this and want to share it.  Sorry if its lengthy.

The Cumaean Sibyl
Ancient Rome's Great Priestess and Prophet

Centuries ago, concurrent with the Fiftieth Olympiad and the Founding of the City of Rome, an old woman arrived incognita in Rome. She came to see King Tarquin. She told him that she came on business, which she then clarified for him: she came to see him on the business of the state. She offered to sell him nine books. Her price was three hundred pieces of gold.
The king couldn't believe his ears. Nor his eyes. "Books? What books?" She was such an old woman!
"I want to sell you nine books," she told him. "They contain the destiny of the world."
The king still could not believe his ears. "The what?" he asked.
"The future of the world," she told him in simpler terms. "My books contain the destiny of the world."
"Even so," said the king. "The price seems too high..."

A few weeks later -- for the old woman had to journey all the way from Rome to Cumae, which is on the north hook of the Bay of Naples, and then, all the way back, crossing the farm lands of Campania -- she presented herself again at the audience chamber of King Tarquin.
"What now?" he impatiently asked. She was really an old, old woman.
"I offer you six books for sale," she answered.
"How much?" he asked.
"I told you. Three hundred pieces of gold."
"Too much."

Some time later, for the old woman was not as young as she used to be, and the roads between Cumae and Rome are very long roads in any century, she presented herself again at the court of King Tarquin.
"I can offer you three books," she told the king.
"How much?" he inquired.
"Same price. Three hundred pieces of gold," she said.
"What happened to the other six," he asked.
"I burnt them," she said.
King Tarquin bought the three remaining books, which contained the destiny of the world, for three hundred pieces of gold, from the old woman. She was the Cumaean Sibyl in person.
Then he asked her to rewrite, or to have reconstituted, the other six books.
"No," was her reply.

After he had read his three books, he asked her again. "No," she repeated.
Thus, great Rome rose to be a kingdom and subsequently flourished as a republic, which conquered Gaul under Julius Caesar. Then Rome inaugurated its worldwide empire. That Caesar was stabbed to death in the Roman Forum. And all these centuries, Rome expanded but never knew its destiny, until it finally collapsed. What wisdom might have been gleaned from those six burnt books?
________________________________________
In a closely guarded vault beneath the Capitoline temple of Jupiter (in Rome) were once kept the renowned sibylline books, which were consulted by the college of priests on the occasion of earthquakes and other disasters. History records that the Apollonian sibyl who dwelt by the spring at Cumae originally offered Tarquinius Superbus (534-510 BCE) nine books of oracular utterances in Greek hexameters. The price being too high, Tarquinius rejected the offer, only to learn that she was burning the books of wisdom one by one. When the sibyl shrewdly offered the remaining three books for the same exorbitant sum as the original nine, he paid the price, and the books were preserved until the disastrous fire which incinerated the Capitol in 83 BCE.
After that disaster, the Senate sent envoys to various oracles to collect similar prophecies, assembling a collection that survived for several centuries until it was reportedly destroyed by Stilicho.

Virgil, in his Aeneid, describes the Cumaean Sibyl thus: "She changes her features and the color of her countenance; her hair springs up erect, her bosom heaves and pants, her wild heart beats violently, the foam gathers on her lips, and her voice is terrible." And when she was possessed, Virgil added, "She paces to and fro in her cave and gesticulates as if she would expel the gods from her breast."
One of the Cumaean Sibyl's peculiarities, moreover, was that when consulted she would write her predictions on oak leaves and lay them at the edge of her cave, from which they were blown hither and yon by the wind and often confusedly mixed up, making them all but unintelligible to their readers. The Cumaean Sibyl, declared one historian, never sat on her tripod to give answers without first swallowing a few drops of the juice of the bay laurel.
________________________________________
[The following is from Priestesses by Norma Goodrich Lorre.]
The Roman Senate ordered two Roman patricians to rewrite the lost Sibylline Books. Later, their ranks were increased to Ten Men; their ranks were, in turn, increased to Fifteen Men, later to increase to a whole College of Priests charged to reframe the lost Sibylline Books. No one else was ever permitted to read the three original Books. One Marcus Atilius was sewn into a sack and thrown into the Tiber River for authorizing someone to copy them.
Julius Caesar gave a copy of the Sibylline Books to his high priests, who were the only public servants legally allowed to read them. These Books were guarded, stored, and preserved in subterranean chambers of the Capitoline Hill. Those chambers and the temple on the Hill had been completed and consecrated in 500 BCE.

The Sibylline Books were finally completely destroyed in 83 CE when the temple of Jove Capitolinus burned.
Augustus Caesar authorized a High Commission to seek out capable authors worldwide, who were to rewrite, edit, and reestablish the Sibylline Books. They may now be read in The Apocryphal Literature edited by Charles Cutler Torrey, who has said that the present Books IV and V were written by the Sibyl who introduced herself as a granddaughter of Noah.

The Sibylline Books and their troubled history may also be traced in the extant books of Roman historian Livy (Volume III). He follows their thread from the year 461 BCE, when the two original commissioners (duumviri -- "two men") consulted the Books because of a terrible earthquake when the heavens also blazed -- and again in 443 BCE, when people and cattle were struck by an epidemic. The Sibylline Books warned Rome of all multiples of three.
The Senate had recourse to the Books again in 399 BCE, a year of catastrophic distemper in humans and livestock. In 343 BCE, they were again consulted because of a fearsome omen: a shower of stones fell on Rome.
Livy says it was the Cumaean Sibyl who told the Romans that their Gods and Goddesses had been imported from Greece. When a pestilence decimated the Romans in 293 BCE, the Books instructed them to send for the healer Asclepius.
During the winter of 218 BCE, a horrendous time for Rome, Romans were terrified because of a large number of prodigies:
1.   A baby of six months of age suddenly uttered, "Victoria!"
2.   An ox climbed three stories and then jumped.
3.   Phantom ships gleamed in the sky. [This one might be of interest to UFO researchers.]
4.   The temple of Hope was struck by lightning.
5.   A wolf snatched a sentry’s sword.
The situation in Rome grew most precarious the next spring (217 BCE) when Hannibal moved out of his winter quarters to finish his so-far highly successful campaigns against Rome.

That spring in both Italy and Sicily, the heavens gave many warnings. First, the orb of the sun decreased in size. Then it appeared to be colliding with the moon. Then two moons appeared in the daytime sky. Then the sky split apart; through this rift a brilliant light shone, and then the sky appeared to catch fire. Then, in the city of Capua, during a rainstorm, one of these moons fell to earth. The same portent that had signaled the fall of Thebes occurred: a holy spring ran blood.
The Cumaean Sibyl finally ordered the now hysterical populace to go out and sit at the crossroads and to pray to Triple Hecate, and last of all to bring from Asia the Black Stone of Mother Cybele, and then Cybele Herself, as their protectress in this grave emergency.

Despite these records, and despite this long tradition of sanctity, the Cumaean Sibyls were considered fantasy until archaeologists proved their actual existence by discovering sticks and stones, tunnels and slabs of quarried rock, and the cave in which each Sibyl had lived at Cumae.

Roman historian Varro listed ten Sibyls, not by origin, but by place of prophecy: Persian, Libyan, Delphic, Cimmerian (Italian), Erythraean (Ionian?), Samian (Isle of Samos), Cumaean, Phrygian (Trojan), and Tiburtine (Latin).
The first Christian to list the Sibyls was L.C.F. Lactantius (c. 260-340 CE). In his book on holy, religious institutions (Book I, Chapter 6), he lists the Sibyls as follows:
1.   Persian (or Chaldean, who answered Alexander the Great)
2.   Libyan (Her name was Lamia, meaning Snake or Medusa)
3.   Delphic Sibyl (Mount Parnassus in Greece)
4.   Cimmerian (Near Lake Avernus; i.e., Cumae)*
5.   Erythraean (From Babylon; she predicted the Trojan War)
6.   Samian (Isle of Samos, near Hera’s Temple)
7.   Cumaean (Sibyls named: Deiphobe, Amalthea, Herophile, Demophile, Taraxandra)
8.   Hellespontian (born at Troy during the lifetimes of Solon and Cyrus the Great)
9.   Phrygian (Priestess of Cybele who prophesied at Ankara, Turkey)
10.   Albanean or Tiburtine (Latin town of Tiburs)
*Since the designation Cimmerian refers to priestesses who lived underground near Lake Avernus, it probably duplicates #7, or refers twice to the Cumaean Sibyls. An oracular shrine dedicated to Apollo, as at Delphi, stood on the Acropolis of Cumae. An underground Roman road ran from the southeastern part of Cumae, through Mount Grillo to the shores of Lake Avernus.

Saint Augustine, who admitted that the Sibyl spoke words received from the Judeo-Christian deity (from God) considered that there had been only one Sibyl. As more research was completed into the matter, the number of Sibyls had, by the Middle Ages, reached twelve. Other oracular centers were found: Colophon, Rhodes, Ephesus, and Sicily.
When they obliged by answering questions, the later priestesses employed several methods, either vocal, in writing, or by arcane signs and symbols. Often, they transcribed their answers onto palm leaves that the wind sometimes picked up and scattered, to the great consternation of the suppliant. [Such is the realm of the oracle -- cannot make it TOO easy!]

Throughout all antiquity, it appears, Cumae was kept sacred, and it was dedicated by the priestesses of the dead to their Queen-Priestess Persephone, who had been abducted by Hades in Sicily.

Archaeologists have found an inscribed gravestone with the message: "Nobody but initiates may be interred here." It has no date, and the Romans had no date for Cumae before 524 BCE. Cumae was destroyed by landing parties from a Saracen fleet in 915 CE.

By the early 1600s, archaeological activity had uncovered valuable treasures in buried statues, cremation tombs, beehive tombs, cellars and other underground structures, vaults, and niches for cinerary urns.
Since 1932, it has been known but not widely or openly admitted that the Cumaean Sibyl once lived and that she, and others of that title, had been High-Priestesses of Rome.

An unidentified early Christian visited the site just after the Sibyl ceased to perform her priestly duties; i.e., before the end of Rome’s Republic and the death of Julius Caesar. This visitor was taken on a tour of the temple at Cumae and was told that the Sibyl had purified herself there. Donning a long, ceremonial robe, she proceeded solemnly to her chamber, seated herself upon a throne, and delivered her oracles. At the end of her chamber was the holier adyton or sacred inner chamber. The Cumaean Sibyl was especially venerated by early Christians not only for her prophetic gift but also because she had specifically prophesied the birth of Christ -- the fact of which most of today's Christians remain unaware.

http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/desdemo2.htm

________________________________________________________________________--

There is so  much in this that is also in the pages we just read.  
pg.  123 the Sibyl scribbled on a leaf.
pg.  124 Phinea says, "Beleiveing that I have done something to anger the gods, perhaps by taking from their natives shrines the records of their mysteries," "I can only assume that the gods smile on my endeavors, especially since I was brought here."  "You's be amazed at the traffic in magical secrets practiced in the bazaais of the East-its enough to tarnish one's belief in these religions when so often there's a price attached to their mysteries."

I sort of sat up and took notice when I thought about what effect would it  have on the Catholic church if there were the Sibylline Books in the trunk?   Would it be "enough to tarnish one's belief" in their Catholic religion?

This is the tip of the iceberg.  I have so much more to share. I can see why PISA (Catholic church) would want to fund the trip and have Maria there as their representative.  With much more to uncover and reveal, I just wonder if there are to be more murders in our next pages after these?  As expected, my head is spinning and I will take a break.  Gumtree, our night fairy I can't wait to hear from you, since ther rest of our group is probably sleeping like I should be doing.  lol

Ciao for now...............

P.S.  In the article Pedln provided a link to, Carol said this:

"The Night Villa" is set in Italy in the shadow of Mt. Vesuvius. The plot follows a team of researchers and academics in search of ancient scrolls that might hold a secret that will change the way historians view religion.




“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Gumtree

  • Posts: 2741
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #351 on: June 08, 2009, 12:17:02 AM »
Ginny The red poppy (Papaver Rhoeas) which we call the Flanders Field poppy and may grow in our gardens , is NOT the opium poppy. Cultivation of the opium one, (Papava Somniferum)  is banned for obvious reasons. - pity because it is so beautiful...

Here's something on the effects of opium from the 19th century - written by Thomas de Quincey in his Confessions of an English Opium Eater

I was stared at, hooted at, grinned at, chattered at, by monkeys, by paroquets, by cockatoos. I ran into pagodas, and was fixed, for centuries at the summit, or in secret rooms: I was the idol; I was the priest; I was worshipped; I was sacrificed. I fled from the wrath of Brama through all the forests of Asia; Vishnu hated me; Seva laid wait for me. I came suddenly upon Isis and Osiris: I had done a deed, they said which the ibis and the crocodile trembled at. I was buried for a thousand years, in stone coffins, with mummies and sphinxes, in narrow chambers at the heart of eternal pyramids. I was kissed with cancerous kisses, by crocodiles; and laid, confounded with all untellerable slimy things, amongst reeds and Nilotic mud

If that's the result of taking opium I'll give it a miss - I have trouble enough with my artwork  'parallel existence' to want any others.

- So many great writers experimented with opium and as a result we have  some of the finest literature in the English language - and in other languages as well - think of the poem, Kubla Khan   written under the influence of drugs - I learned it by heart at school and will never forget the words....though punctuation and line breaks are now just a guess -

In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure dome decree
Where Alph, the sacred river
Ran, through caverns measureless to man... etc


I guess that poem would bring back memories for many.
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

Steph

  • Posts: 7952
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #352 on: June 08, 2009, 07:50:20 AM »
There is so much happening in the second section. Both levels of story have things going on. Not sure which is the most important to me.  Agnes strikes me more and more as a person who is hiding things. She also is more independent all of a sudden.  I thought Sophia had come to be a translater, but Agnes seems to handle much more of that.  Maria is a NUN??? What a terrible human being. She makes no sense as someone from a religious background. Ely pops up more and more. Its going to take me all week to figure out what I feel about everyone.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

Mippy

  • Posts: 3100
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #353 on: June 08, 2009, 09:05:28 AM »
Ginny asked ~  Who would you cast in the parts [in a movie]? Who do you see as Simon, John Lyros, Elgin and Sophie particularly?  

What fun!   I often do this when I read novels.
I'm sure many of you will disagree with me:
Sophie:   Meryl Streep.    I just watched Devil Wears Prada, so have her on my mind
Elgin:       George Clooney.    Not sure whether he'd be the correct age for this part
J. Lyros:   Patrick Stuart,     with hair! anyone see him with hair as a villain in I Claudius?
Simon:     T.J. Thyne,    that cute young scientist on Bones who wants to marry Angela 
           
quot libros, quam breve tempus

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #354 on: June 08, 2009, 09:12:26 AM »
Good point, GINNY. When children are belittled constantly growing up, it's more commonfor them to develop a very low self esteem. Others become determined to prove the predictions wrong. Perhaps it made a difference here that there was a mother who, for all her weaknesses, did not denigrate her like her grandparents did. It enabled her to see that her grandparents could be wrong.

BELLEMARIE, sorry, I must have missed the earlier post. Thanks for the clarification. And I love the story of the Cumaean sibyl and King Tarquin.

Oh, yeah, GUM. When is comes to eerie poetry, these lines from that same
'Xanadu'take the prize as far as I'm concerned.

That with music loud and long,
I would build that dome in air,
That sunny dome ! those caves of ice !
And all who heard should see them there,
And all should cry, Beware ! Beware !

His flashing eyes, his floating hair !
Weave a circle round him thrice,
And close your eyes with holy dread,
For he on honey-dew hath fed,
And drunk the milk of Paradise.


Here is the opium poppy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_poppy
 
I agree about Maria, STEPH. Something is just not right with that one
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Frybabe

  • Posts: 10032
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #355 on: June 08, 2009, 09:41:26 AM »
Pedln, I agree that the legalese is a little daunting in spots. The answer to your question about the meaning of vadimonium is on p155 of the link I provided. Of course the whole explanation is much more detail than this but briefly is this. If the parties involved in a lawsuit must reappear in court at a later date, the vadimonium is a promise to return at the specified date. If they do not, they are subject to a fine.

Things certainly appear to be getting sinister, are they not? I get the distinct feeling that Sophie is being set up.

On the Opium poppies. My best friend told me that his grandmother had some beautiful poppies growing in her yard once upon a time. They(the Feds?) came along and ripped them out saying they were opium poppies. I didn't ask when this happened, but got the impression that he had seen the poppies. Since his family moved when he was around eight, I assume that this happened in the late 40s. Maybe they were, maybe not. It reminds me of the time in the 60s when the local cops ripped up someone's potted tomato plants claiming they were marijuana.

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #356 on: June 08, 2009, 10:21:12 AM »
Steph...
Quote
Agnes strikes me more and more as a person who is hiding things. She also is more independent all of a sudden.  I thought Sophia had come to be a translater, but Agnes seems to handle much more of that.

That is why I thought Agnes was enticing Sophie to come, and knew she was up in the middle of the night. There is more to her than meets the eye.  Amazing how Agnes seems to have become the lead in these pages and Sophie takes a back seat following her around.  How did Agnes know so much about the swim place?  Agnes knows way too much to fit into the character the narrator placed her as in Sophie's office the first day.  And what is up with the mention of the drugs and rape?  Agnes seemed to personally internalize with what Simon said about the drugs and sex.   "Date rape and ruffies"  hmmmm Could Dale  have done this to Agnes?

I'm not so sure if Maria is a nun, but she is there to represent the church for sure. 

Mippy, yes I think it is a lot of fun casting actor/actresses in book characters.  Let me take a stab at it.

Elgin......Richard Gere....handsome, intelligent, trusting. 
John.....Tom Hanks....Experienced, leader, perfect in Angels and Demons and The Da Vinci Code
Ely........Tom Cruise....Handsome, adventurous, mysterious, ends up with the woman.
Agnes...Reese Witherspoon...Youthful, good/bad girl, southern girl.
Sophie..Julia Roberts...perfect movies to compare this to...Sleeping with the enemy, Mona Lisa Smile, ends up with the leading hero.
Simon...Leonardo De Caprio...Young, cute, humorous
George...Ryan Phillippi...Young, dependable, cute
Phinea...Johnny Dep.....need I say more?
Maria...Penelope Cruz...Latin-Catholic image, fiesty, demure

Okay, I got my popcorn and milk duds, all my favorite lead actors/actressess, let's go to the movies!!!

Ciao for now...............................

My screen is jumping again.
 

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Gumtree

  • Posts: 2741
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #357 on: June 08, 2009, 11:21:37 AM »
BabiH'm yes, Coleridge's Kubla Khan really is an enigma...the words bring all sorts of images to the mind. Didn't he call it something like 'a vision in a dream' ?  When I was a kid I wondered about that 'damsel with a dulcimer' - It's a long time since I've thought of about it at all - now I have to go and look it out, maybeeven read a commentary...

FrybabeI can relate to your friend's poppy story. My neighbour still has the opium poppies come up in odd corners of her large garden. She grew them until it became illegal to do so here but of course the self-sown seeds are still around all these years later. If they come up in a secluded part of her garden she lets them grow and bloom but doesn't let them seed. Those that can be seen she lifts out and puts them somewhere else - they're really lovely.
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

catbrown

  • Posts: 152
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #358 on: June 08, 2009, 11:45:36 AM »
Ginny The red poppy (Papaver Rhoeas) which we call the Flanders Field poppy and may grow in our gardens , is NOT the opium poppy. Cultivation of the opium one, (Papava Somniferum)  is banned for obvious reasons. - pity because it is so beautiful...

Ahh, not banned in gardens in Berkeley, California. There are some beautiful ones blooming right this minute in my neighbor's garden. And in other gardens all over Berkeley and no one, least of all the cops, seems to mind. They're gorgeous.


winsummm

  • Posts: 461
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #359 on: June 08, 2009, 12:21:08 PM »
gum: the flanders poppy is that the same as our california poppy which literally coverss the hills along with lupin which is dark blue and purple. gorgeous fo a few weeks here. But I love what they call here the french poppy. is that the illegal one?

now about those movie stars all are perfect except tom cruise who doesn't look jewish enough, but you can never tell I guess.  ethicc appeaances don't tell the story anymore although I thik a real boo boo was gregory peck in GENELEMANS AGREEMENT. a good italian actor like Robert de  niro would do only he's too old now.  senior moment but I'm trying for the guy in the rainman. . .he would do as I remember that Ely is slight and small?  I wondered why our tall heroine found him romantic.
thimk