Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online

[ALF43]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week  2: Through Chapter 16:
The Game's Afoot!

1. What an exciting section! So many clues, so many mysteries!! What do you want to talk about first?
2. Who do you think was in the blue and white sailboat?
3. What cult do you think Iusta belongs to?
4. What is the meaning of the three squares, first at the table and then in the mail? Who do you think is sending them?
5. What do you think is Maria's real interest in the project?
6. How many themes of rebirth and resurrection are there in this section?
7. Can you shed some light on any of the following?
----Parthenope
----Agrai Mysteries
----Oxyrhynchus Project
----Petronii
----The Sibyl of Cumae
----Isis/ Apuleius
----Wilhelmina Jashemski

8. This would make a great movie. Who would you cast in the parts? Who do you see as Simon, John Lyros, Elgin and Sophie particularly?
9. How would you characterize the atmosphere on Capri?
10. What do you think John Lyros is actually after?
11. What did you like best in this section?
12. "We're all hungry for ritual, to experience something beyond the banality of everyday life, to stand outside of ourselves..." (Simon on page 150).  When you think about it, who in this book is NOT in this condition? Why?
[/b]

The Rape of Persephone
Bernini 1621-24.
 Rome (Villa Borghese)

Schedule Chapters 10-16 for June 8 - 14 Chapters 17-24 for June 15 - 22 Chapters 25-End for  June 23 - 30

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Interesting Links NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 Carol Goodman Homepage The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) Cult  (submitted by Marcie) Real or Fictional ? Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants

Discussion Leaders: Andrea & Ginny

Floor Plan of the Villa of the Papyri by Karl Weber, 1750-.




New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!

Pedln and Jude- thank you for the information on Wilamina, our resident Pompeiian gardener, historian and archeologist. I understand the attraction of Pompeii for an archeologist but would never have considered an avid gardner's enthusiasm for that area.  It makes perfect sense now, especially if the someone "lets the dogs out!"

Babi and Pedln are questioning John Lyros'es funding of the excavation.  Let's think about him for a moment.

 We know he's a billionaire who made his fortune in computer software by inventing an encryption program and he was also a classics major at UT at age 21.  
When one of them googled him they found a 5 year discrepancy where he dropped off the radar screen and then her resurfaced to announce the establishment of the John  Lyros Institute, a foundation intended to aid research in ancient history, philosophy, art, and archeology.
He became so enthralled with the Villa della Notre that he built its replica on the Isle of Capri, one half hour away from the original villa at Herculaneum, with a state of the art  lab.

What else do we know except he was a climber, had a broken nose that left him with a predatory "hawk" look? (That's a fact I do not like.)

When he met Sophie, he was very much the gentleman and called for his Institute's boat the Parthenope (let us remember that that name was the name given to a Greek siren who threw herself into the sea) to bring her back.  On pg. 116 he "personally oversees the project of building Sophie back up, wining and dining her. "  
What else do we know about him so far?

[ALF43]

I'm sorry we went directly to page 11 as I was working on the heading so I missed a couple of your posts while I was fiddling around with that chore.

[ALF43]

Steph- be safe in your travels.
I am with you on Maria, I can't figure out why the hell she's even in this story yet, except for the fact she's a rep. of the church.
 .. Maria..

This character is truly weird to me.. Is she jealous of Sophie?? Does she feel that John is somehow her property. She certainly behaves like a jealous women.. I find her confusing

Again, what do we really know of her besides she is bitchy and resentful? 
Pg. 147

"It was probably cooler on the top level... I'm sure Dr. Chases room, for instance, is much cooler than our are."

She makes caustic remarks about the dresses or skirts that Sophie dons. Remember when she told Sophie to 'go to the beach, you could use the color?" 
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr-  I love people like that, I spend all of my time trying to return barb for barb.

She chides Agnes about the interest that Elgin Lawrence had in her (Agnes). 
She seems to notice everything as well, doesn't she?  She knew that John and Elgin had left for Herculeneum early to overseee the excavation on Phineas's room.

Who is she?

[Gumtree]

From Ginny's list in the heading I was silly enough to pick on the Oxyrhynchus Project for the simple reason that I'd read about it some time in the dim distant past and therefore I thought it would be a simple matter to check it out again and jot down a few points...woe is me - I have been googling and reading for half the day.  It is so interesting, so here goes...though where to start is a problem.

Oxyrhynchus is in Egypt about 100 miles or so to the south west of Cairo and was inhabited for centuries during classical times- a modern town exists there today.

In the late 1890 two Oxford graduates, Bernard Grenfell and Arthur Hunt excavated a mound in the desert - the mound being the town's rubbish dump - and discovered heaps of papyri, packed them up and later deposited them with Oxford University and this was really the beginning of the Project. The papyri contain fragments of Greek and Roman literature, Biblical texts, records of daily life, public life and so on and presents : virtually  a complete record of the life of the town and of the civilization and empires of which the town was a part

Over the century since the find the ongoing research of Oxyrhynchus Project has been funded and supported by various organisations eg. Egyptian Exploration Society, The British Academy and similar bodies. The focus for the research has been the publication of the material contained in the papyri - to date 4,700 items have been published - one volume is published each year. In all 100,000 papyrus fragments are housed at Oxford, with their indexes, archives and photographic record it is the biggest hoard of classical manuscripts in the world.

The find was enormous. There was so much material that Bernard Grenfell wrote: The flow of papyri soon became a torrent - merely turning up the soil with one's boot would frequently disclose a layer

He goes on :

The third and by far the greatest find [of 'archive' mounds], that of the Byzantium archives took place on March 18th and 19th [1897]. and was I suppose, a 'record', in point of quantity. On the first of these two days we came upon a mound which had a thick layer consisting almost entirely of papyrus rolls. There was room for six pairs of men and boys to be working simultaneously at this storehouse, and the difficulty was to find enough baskets in all Behneseh to contain the papyri. At the end of the day's work no less than  thirtysix good sized baskets were brought in from the place, several of them stuffed with fine rolls three to ten feet long, including some of the largest Greek rolls I have ever seen. As the baskets were required for the next day's work, Mr. Hunt and I started at 9 p.m. after dinner to stow away all the papyri in some empty packing cases which we fortunately had at hand. The task was only finished at three in the morning,  and on the following night we had a repetition of it, for twenty five more baskets were filled before the place was exhausted.

This was our last great find of papyri.

For the rest of their lives Grenfell & Hunt continued to excavate each year during the season and between digs spent their time at Oxford working on deciphering their finds.

The work continues today and of course scholars at Oxford are using the multi-spectral imaging technology to recover previously illegible writing just as our friends are doing in Night Villa

This project really is worth checking out - try these links. The Wiki seems accurate and covers the story in a straightforward way - the other originates from Oxford's Professor P.J. Parsons who is in charge of the project and that site is definitely worth clicking around.

Oxyrhynchus Project

Parsons Oxy Project


Sorry I can't get the link for the Oxford site to work but if you just google for Oxyrhynchus Project Oxford you should get something pretty quickly.

[ALF43]

Because papyrus was expensive, paper was often reused: a document might have farm accounts on one side, and a student's text of Homer on the other. The Oxyrhynchus Papyri, therefore, contained a complete record of the life of the town, and of the civilizations and empires of which the town was a part.

I looked something up while posting this and  lost everything but my last quote. oy vey!!!
You can not search the web BEFORE you post or it goes with the wind.

Let me try again.  Thank you Gum for your interest in researching the Oxyrhynchum Project for us.  It is so interesting , isn't it incredible how truth and fiction have been blended here in the Night Villa.  I can't believe that they had actually found fragments of  text of the Gospel, i.e. Thomas, Matthew, etc.,  in that dig.

We, oops, I should say I first heard of the project when sophie met the Brit, George Petherbridge, who was there on loan from Oxford to help separate the layers of writing and finding the right spectrum for the ink used on the Phineus papyrus scroll.  He was supposed to have recovered a part of a lost tragedy by Sophocles.  This is where I went awry.  I tried to research to see which tragedy was lost and I found the tragedy when my post disappeared.

The Lost One

[bellamarie]

Andrea, 

She makes caustic remarks about the dresses or skirts that Sophie dons. Remember when she told Sophie to 'go to the beach, you could use the color?" 
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr-  I love people like that, I spend all of my time trying to return barb for barb.

ROFLMAO......I love people like you Andrea!!

Who is Maria?  Well, the church has to be represented, so she is the one there on their behalf according to the narrator.  Is she really a nun?  I tend to think so.  Is she really jealous of Sophie, or does she just take pleasure in making Sophie feel inadequate.  ah hem "Mother Superior" syndrome maybe.  My grand daughter is starting Notre Dame an all girls  high school in the fall and because she was granted a scholarship she must be in the work program for this entire week.  Sr. Linda stated, "You will show up promptly at 8:00 and not leave before 2:00 You are not to miss one day unless there is a death in the family." (tee hee)  My grand daughter has gone to a Catholic school all through her elementary years and never experienced this type of attitude with the nuns at our parish/school.  So I do have to giggle a little bit at Maria's attitude because the prim and prissy attitude and being so judgemental on Sophie's appearance rings true.  She is prudish which would be expected for a nun of celebacy, and punctual, knowing where eveyone is early in the morning, which all nuns tend to learn through very early morning vespers.  She is obnoxious, but then I have met a few obnoxious nuns while teaching at a Catholic school for 15 yrs. 

[ALF43]

Bellamarie, I have tried and tried to find where in this book it said something about her being very pretty, dressed to the 9's, etc. but I can't find it.  She doesn't sound like a nun to me.  Firstly, would the church send a nun there to examine these types of scrolls filled with orgy sacrifices and rape?  I went to a Catholic Nursing school and believe me, THOSE Mercy nuns were anything but full of mercy.  Great training, I will grant you, but a young girl finding herself at age 17, like me, with those nuns... makes Maria look like Mary Poppins.

[Frybabe]

Thanks for the link Gumtree. While everybody is at it, look at their link for the Herculaneum. At the bottom of the home page is a link to their newsletter. The newsletter has lots of  photos and an article (p8) about the House of Papri which includes a diagram of where the scrolls were found.

[bellamarie]

Andrea..."Marry Poppins"....ROFLMAO... I hear ya. 

I am only going on what the narrator has told us.  I thought it very strange they would send a nun to represent the church.  Why on earth a nun?  I am just saying I don't find it hard to see Maria as a nun, if indeed she is.  I would have expected the church to send a least a priest or a theologian lawyer on their behalf.  It is weird to say the least.  But then this entire book has been weird, so it fits in.   

[JudeS]

Please , someone  point out on what page does the book say that Maria is a Nun?

I know there is a stereotype of Nuns but here are some little known facts about this profession.
A huge percentage (Some say 60%) of Nuns are victims of sexual abuse by a family member. There is a cadre of Psychiatrists that work mainly with Nuns who have a plethora of Mental Health issues.

Although I am Jewish  I have a very close friend who is an ex-Nun married to an ex-Priest. There is a huge and I mean Huge colony of ex Nuns and Priests who live in the Aptos-Santa Cruz area in CA. They are really very fine people who do much charitable work but not through the Church.

Many Nuns have high academic degrees paid for by the Church that does encourage knowledge of many subjects.  However there are many different sects of Nuns and some don't encourage learning at all.

[bellamarie]

pg.  131  It describes Maria!

[ALF43]

Jude- as I said before, I can not find anything that "says" Maria is a nun.   Yes, you are correct.  There are various orders that practice quite differently from the other.
pg. 131 says she is no older than 30, dressed impeccably.. pearls gleam on earlobes and a gold cross nestling between breasts. Nowhere does that describe a "nun" in the secular sense nor in a religious way.

[bellamarie]

JudeS...

A huge percentage (Some say 60%) of Nuns are victims of sexual abuse by a family member. There is a cadre of Psychiatrists that work mainly with Nuns who have a plethora of Mental Health issues.

That is interesting, where did you get those statistics?

[bellamarie]

Oh my heavens...all along we (I) have been thinking Maria is a nun!!!

"Maria Prezziotti, an Italian archaeologist from the Pontificia Instituto Sacra-Archeologia-PISA.  If I'd been expecting a dour old nun as the Catholic Church's representative I couldn't have been more mistaken.  Maria Prezziotti is no older than thirty.  She's dressed impeccably in a dark skirt and crisp cotton blouse: pearls gleam on her earlobes and a gold cross nestles between her ample breasts.  It occurs to me that her outfit is nearly indentical to the one the housekeeper wears, only on Maria it looks chic and sexy."    pg.  131

[ALF43]

Ah- this is what I was seeking.  pg. 133

"I just wondered why we haven'[t all gotten to see the scanned portions of the Phineas scroll.  It's my job to look for any Christian regerences in the material recovered.  It is why my organization agreed to fund this project."... no doubt to remind her (Agnes) that John Lyros isn't the only benefactor of the Papyrus project. 

Do you think because of the texts of the gospel that were found in the Oxyrhynchus Project, the Catholic church wanted the heads up on this one?  Or am I just reaching here?

[bellamarie]

Its interesting that says her outfit is nearly identical to the one the housekeepers wear.  She knew who set the table, she called the housekeeper by name, she asked if they were expecting another guest and ordered the housekeeper to take the chair away from the table.  She is up early and seems to know everyone's schedule.

Why would she be dressed like the housekeepers?  This is so weird.

[Deems]

Gum, I found your work on the discoveries at Oxyrhynchus, Egypt, fascinating:

"In the late 1890s two Oxford graduates, Bernard Grenfell and Arthur Hunt excavated a mound in the desert - the mound being the town's rubbish dump - and discovered heaps of papyri, packed them up and later deposited them with Oxford University and this was really the beginning of the Project. The papyri contain fragments of Greek and Roman literature, Biblical texts, records of daily life, public life and so on and presents : virtually  a complete record of the life of the town and of the civilization and empires of which the town was a part."

I guess they didn't have a shredder back then?

Imagine what can be found in old garbage dumps!

Thoughts on Maria--I assumed she was a nun because of the plain clothing, dark skirt, simple white top, cross at the neck.  Everyone remember all the changes after Vatican II?  There are some orders of nuns who wear ordinary street clothing of a modest nature.  I think that some of her snipes at Sophie are because of what Sophie is wearing.  Interesting to me that she doesn't seem to make the same comments about Agnes, maybe because much of the time Agnes is off with the parchments.

[ALF43]

Professor Maryal- I am delighted to see you here.  You wrote:

The papyri contain fragments of Greek and Roman literature, Biblical texts, records of daily life, public life and so on and presents : virtually  a complete record of the life of the town and of the civilization and empires of which the town was a part."

No shredders at that time, you are a funny lady!!! 

What would happen, seriously,... if the Catholic Church was represented in such a dig and these Gospel fragments had been uncovered?
  Noone actually holds any rights to anything found, do they, except the guy springing for the excavation.  Of course archeologists are students of remains and historians usually but what if the church demanded the rights to the Gospel morsels that were revealed?

[Frybabe]

I figure that if early writings of note to the Church were found that the Vatican would want to know ASAP if there was anything in them contradicting or refuting church doctrine. That way they would have an early start on studying and explaining (the word of the day, spinning) the findings to the many people who would be demanding an explanation or an answer of some kind from the Church.

[Deems]

Andy--If any biblical documents had been found, you can bet they would be seized (one way or another--maybe that's why Maria is somewhat fierce) and then go into bureaucratic never-never land for a Long Time.

The Dead Sea scrolls were discovered in (I think) 1947 and it took a long time before the public had any access to translations.

Just looked it up --dead sea scrolls discovered between 1947 and 1956.  

There are some peg dates in my mind but I often check to see if my mind has gone whacko.  I remember the 1947 because my father was a minister and there were, a number of years later, books about the scrolls in the house.

[Deems]

frybabe--we were posting at the same time.  Yes, exactly, the Vatican would want to know because of doctrine. 

[ALF43]

Thanks Deems and Frybaby- I hadn't even considered WHAT would evolve if any of that doctrine were contrary to todays tenets.

I don't know why I keep reverting back to Parthenope, one of the 3 sirens, the sea nymph.  Perhaps it's because of my love for the water, I guess.  I found it interesting that after throwing herself into the sea, she washed ashore in Naples and it was then called Parthe nope after her name.
I bet that courageous Ulysses is sorry that he stuffed his ears full of wax and tied himself to the mast.
I'll have to ask Ginny but had he listened perhap it wouldn't have taken him 10 years to return home.

 
 

[bellamarie]

Deems, Frybaby....Yes, the church would be quick to want to see exactly what is in those records and if they could hurt the church in any way. Only I have also been wondering if the Catholic church is worried about the Pythagorean theory possibly refuting their teaching of Genesis.  Those Sibylline Books that foretold the birth of Christ keeps rolling around in my head, and the fact that Plato wrote about the Pythagorean theory, that God used geometry to create body and soul.

This would go against the teachings of the church.  The sentence that stays with me as a Catholic reading and trying to figure out what if anything would "tarnish the church" is when Phinea said, "You'd be amazed at the traffic in magical secrets practiced in the bazaais of the East - its enough to tarnish one's belief in these religions when so often there's a price attached to the mysteries."

I still can't stop thinking of the activities that Peyrefitte wrote about, the Club Mediteranee and how damaging that would be to the Catholic church, if it were revealed in any of them scrolls. 

In Carol's answer yesterday she said, Something to the effect this book would make you rethink religions.

This does remind me of the Da Vinci Code, dare I say that is why I chose Tom Hanks to be cast as John Lyros.

[Frybabe]

Ahhhhhh, the plot thickens (what a cliche, sorry). It is getting hard for me to stop now. I am at the end of our reading for this week and want to keep going. Kind of like when George stopped where he did in the translations.

I don't think Elgin should have told Sophie about the FBI informer. Now if I were Sophie I would begin to think that maybe that I wasn't seeing things and that the informer might, just might be Ely. What was Elgin's purpose for telling her? A slip of the tongue could put all three in danger.

[ALF43]

I know what you mean Frybabe  about wanting to go on BUT there are so many things we haven't yet discussed.  

How about the argument between Simon and John Lyros?  What do you think that was all about?
Why did Agnes want Sophie to dive  with her to reach the underwater opening?
What's with all of the mermaid talk?

What's with Agnes feeling "reborn" all over again" when she surfaces?

What really happened with her and Sam when she got to UT & when he subsequently sent the letter wondering if she had any feelings for him?
(That was when she asked Sophie is she would go back with an old boyfriend who had made a mistake.)

Who was that guy on the Persophone in the red T-shirt looking at them thru binoculars, over 100 ft. away?  Could it BE Ely? 

pg. 142 Sophie questions the "dual nature of woman" and rethinks it when she sees Two women in profile-Day and Night-" a common motif in 19th century cameos."

Do you think women truly have a dual nature?  

so many questions, so little time.   

[countrymm]

Hello.  I'm countrymm and would like to join in.  I haven't finished the second section.  Should I finish it before joining the current discussion?  I need to be careful not to read any spoilers.

Normally does the group finish the section before starting to read the current exchanges that are here online?

[marcie]

Welcome, countrymm. You are welcome to join in at any time. It's up to you whether you want to read and post right away or if prefer to wait to read the messages until you've caught up with the reading schedule. It's fine either way! We look forward to hearing your thoughts.

I'm just curious... how did you find our discussion?

[Deems]

Hello, countrymm, come join us!  Sometimes people read the whole section before we discuss and other people don't.  But you might very well encounter some spoilers.  The general rule is just not to talk about anything ahead of the section for the week.  So people who have finished the whole book have to be careful.      

[bellamarie]

Andrea,   For some reason I felt Simon and John were having a lover's quarrel about the attention John was giving to Sophie.  Maybe I am totally off base, this book does that to me. lolol  And to many of the characters too.  lolol

I can not figure out Agnes's motives for her seeming to want to have Sophie on this trip and for taking her to the  swimming place.  I sense Agnes has something to do with the cult because of her relationship with Dale.  I find when I try to answer one question, ten more are swirling around in my head.

Agnes had a Little Mermaid quilt on her bed.  What would a college student want with a childhood quilt?  She mentions the Mermaid show and I got the feeling Agnes did it on purpose knowing Sophie had gone to them.  How would she know something about Sophie's childhood?  Its as if Agnes is playing a little game with Sophie. 

Again I have to say I am a bit preturbed with Sophie seeming to ignore all the coincidences.  Is she really that dense?  Why hasn't she been questioning Agnes's behavior?  Why doesn't it seem odd to Sophie that back in Texas Agnes seemed like the forlorn helpless little southerner and now in Italy she seems to know so much?

I feel pretty certain it was Ely on the boat waving. 

I like a good mystery, but I have to admit this section of the book has exhausted me.  I tend to feel there are too many characters, and too many stories going on, too much reasearch that only leads to too many more questions.  I'm turning in for the night.

Ciao for now................

[countrymm]

Thanks for welcoming me, Marcie and Deems.  I'm almost done with the section now, so I might as well jump in!  I found your site several years ago and have been visiting ever since.  When you changed your group name, I started reading about your book ideas for the June selection.  Managed to get Night Villa from the library.  Wish I had my own copy because there are places I want to mark!  Know the feeling?

I'm wondering why Agnes is literally shaking while the nun is trying to take care of her.  What experience did Agnes have with nuns prior to this?

[countrymm]

Bellamarie, my thoughts are similar to yours.  I picked up on a lover's quarrel between John and Simon too and thought I saw a reference to homosexuality.  I also agree that Agnes is now revealing knowledge about Sophie's past and taunting her with it.  Maybe Agnes applied to study under Sophie at UT in order to influence her regarding the cult?  Perhaps Agnes and Dale had been in the cult together and had met Ely there?  Could Agnes be trying to draw Sophie back to Ely by reuniting them on this trip?  For sure Agnes is no longer the shy quiet girl.  She has knowledge of the cult, has found her voice,  and definitely challenges Maria.  BTW, I never saw Maria as a nun; I saw her as a sexy young thing and even wonder if she could be the daughter of the maid she resembles.  I'm sure  it WAS Ely on the boat!

[Gumtree]

Countrymm Hello to you and welcome. You picked a great discussion to join - there are just so many trails to follow - so much real history intertwined with the fiction. Exciting. Hope you enjoy it as much as I do.

[Steph]

I get the feeling that the initiation rites are important at some point. Mostly they sound disgusting, but that is a modern feeling.
I do see where everyone is going with John and   Elgin.. I backchecked and each one has shown Sophie great care at one point and not thinking in another, but that is mostly human behavior.
Simon seems mostly to be comic relief..
House here is in an uproar. When we leave on the longer rv trips, I need to take a bunch more stuff. We take our kayaks and bikes..I take a lot more books and since we are staying in some remote areas,, dvds for the non cable places..Clothes since we are going north means a wide variety of weather.. All in all, my house is a serious mess.

[bellamarie]

Welcome  countrymm, its nice to have another voice to be heard hear.  I'm happy to hear you saw the lover's quarrel with Simon and John too, I was beginning to think I was having some of Sophie's hallucinations. There is so much coverage of the gay atmosphere, I have to ask why?


Steph,  I am certain the initiation rites will hold some importance some where along the line.  I feel the entire sexual atmosphere, initiation, frescoes, and gay trysts are a bit disgusting.  I have not connected emotionally to one character in this book.  Its as though the characters are void of emotional feelings. A love story it is NOT!  I was feeling some empathy for Sophie, but she seems a bit hollow and I have lost caring for her.  Once I got the impression Iusta was a participant and not a victim, I stopped identifying her with Sophie.  Carol Goodman is an excellent writer and has a lot of questions to answer for us in the next pages to come, which I have no doubt she will.  I just felt overwhelmed by this section.  There's so much going on that when I begin to focus on one thing, I forget the other dozen.  I sort of feel how you just described preparing for your RV trip and house, I feel my mind is a serious mess, after reading this section.  I like your simplistic style of reading books.  Human nature indeed!  We all can be caring one moment and thoughtless the next.  So my tendency is not to pass too harsh a judgement on either guy.  John is just so mysterious, but Elgin with his FBI involvement has taken on a bit of mystery too.  Have a great trip!

Ciao for now..................

[Babi]

 BELLAMARIE, that hotel John recommended was so bad, I suspected he chose it deliberately to induce her to change her mind about not staying with the
rest of them at the villa.  I do believe that the man has an agenda so far
as Sophie is concerned; I just don't know yet what it is.

BELLAMARIE

I keep finding my thoughts and feelings about the characters changing just like they seem to change with each new page.

  I suspect we would be wise to pay close attention to everything Ms. Goodman chooses to tell us. She seems to be a very meticulous plotter.
Isn't it odd that both John and Ely 'drop out' for 5 years. I can't help
thinking that this is not a meaningless coincidence.

[ALF, if I'm going to pause to do research, I first 'minimize' this site. So far
it has worked just fine. When I 'lose' a post, it seems to be because I accidentally hit some odd key.]

 Sorry, but considering Simon's persistence in making Agnes blush with his references to the erotic art they found everywhere, I simply can't see him as
homosexual.  I felt the argument with John had to be about  that old stairway that was exposed and the art they saw there. That was the only thing that had changed in their situation.

Okay, guys. What does ROFLMAO mean? I haven't a clue.

[ALF43]

EXCITING!

I leave for 12 hours and I return to find a new reader to join us.  Welcome aboard countrymm, we are delighted to have you with us on this archelogical dig.  Put on your boots and jump in with both feet as we attempt to straighten out these mercurial characters.  I love it when characters are so unpredictable.  I think that it is a good thing when an author maintains confusion and keeps you guessing.  The climax is yet to come and Steph- the rituals will all make sense to you soon (probably more sense than the confusion of your packing for your upcoming trip.)
The scroll that was found was found in the middle of the courtyard "(as if iit had been dropped by someone fleeing the villa during the eruption.")  I find that fact very interesting! (As Arte Johnson used to say.)
Simon was curious as to what Calatoria didn't want Phineas to see and agreed that the setting screams S & M.   I guess I didn't think that much about the homosexuality issue until I reread the part about the 15 yr. old boy who
"gladly traded his working-class life in Rome for the pleasure palace built for he and his lover" which was named The Villa Lysis. Is this important?  I would bet the ranch that it may be.

Good grief, now we get into Tiberius and how he sacrificed a boy....
I, too am getting tired of chasing my thoughts.

Look at poor bellamarie- she fears that she is having her own hallucinations.

[ALF43]

Babi- We ere posting at the same time.  Thanks, I will try that minimize thing (although I thought that I di already) and then do my search.  I lose a post too often to have hit a wrong key.  I seem to have the key to lose the post.
ROFLMAO is one of those "cutzie" anagrams for Roll On Floor Laugh My A.. Off

I agree with you, our author is clever!  Pay attention or suffer ....

[bellamarie]

Babi....ROFLMAO  means Rolling On Floor Laughing My Ass Off.

Andrea,  All that talk about opium and Poppies its no wonder I am feeling like I am hallucinating.   

Ciao for now..................

[bellamarie]

Yep,  we are all posting at the same time once again.  

Babi

.."I suspect we would be wise to pay close attention to everything Ms. Goodman chooses to tell us. She seems to be a very meticulous plotter."

I anticipated this and have an entire notepad filled already, and still feel like I have missed clues.  Like Ginny has said, "This book is magical", you go back to re read something and find something else there. doooo doooo dooooo  I'm beginning to feel like a cat chasing its tail, only to end up dizzy with no catch.  ROFLMAO...I am laughng at myself now.

[ginny]

Golly moses, how can it be Wednesday? Half the week gone?

Welcome, welcome, countrymm!! Love your post and questions!  You all are seeing things I missed!

I think the book is so rich in allusion I go off on tangents.

I have LOVED your research on Fersen, the Oxyrhynchus Project,  and Wilhelmina Jashemski.  And none of these things, I think, are appearing here idly. I agree with Andrea this is a tightly constructed plot.


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Frybabe, I am so glad you enjoyed the Capasso DVD, it's the very latest in reconstruction of the ancient towns of Pompeii and Herculaneum, not available in this country, it's a treasure. It's making the rounds here, if anybody else would like to see it, email me at gvinesc@gmail.com, it's a treasure.

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LOTS of foreshadowing (page 158) " I suddenly have the same sensation that Phineas describes: the rites have begun."

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Everybody's thoughts here are fascinating on Maria and the possible interest in the box of the Church.


Would  it surprise you to learn that in real life, according to Deiss, the house of Calatoria contained a Christian chapel? An entire room set aside with a cross on the wall.  They don't know what to make of it.

According to Deiss: "Considering the arrangement of the upstairs rooms and their juxtaposition to the 'chapel,' it is an almost inescapable deduction that the upstairs tenants  were associated  with the new cult--- or in any case had responsibility for the use of the room."

The "new cult" here would be Christianity.

In addition somewhere in this book, those of you who take better notes than I do, where IS it, Phineas mentions seeing three things at some threshold: a mother and child, a fish, and one other thing which I can't remember to save my life: what was it? Surely these are Christian symbols?

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John Lyros has put Sophie in the same room Phineas had occupied, this cannot be an accident, how nice of him. I see him as another Jekyll Hyde figure, there seem to be a lot of those metamorphosing here.

more....