Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online

[Gumtree]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

The book can certainly be read on a variety of levels and each one is great in its own way!---Joan R.

Week IV: Finis!

The climax of the mystery rites: the kneeling initiate uncovers a fertility symbol while the winged figure prepares to strike her.
Villa of the Mysteries, Pompeii

What a finish!  What a movie this would make! Were you right? Did you get any of them right at all?

1. What was the biggest surprise for you in this ending full of surprises?
2. What is the climax?
3. Was there a parallel plot? If so who was Iusta?
4. Why did they move to the Hotel Convento?
5. Who sent the note Nemesis?
6. SO much to talk about!  Tell us what you think!
7. Who left the scroll in the courtyard, originally? Remember that one? Why?
8. Odette has surfaced again. What part does she play in this book? Who does she represent?
9.Any book with a Magic 8 Ball in it is magic itself.  Still got a lingering question? Click here and ask  the   a question!
10. What did you like best about this book? (Joan R)
11. I would love to talk about what we each saw as red herrings.  What had YOU individually chasing a clue you finally gave up on, or realized in the end it was nothing more than either a what it represented, or indeed was a red herring? (bellamarie)

The Return of Persephone by Frederic Leighton(1830)–1896)
Demeter, to whom Iusta still prayed, receives her daughter Persephone at last.

The Initiate is comforted
as the Bacchante begins her wild  dance...
Villa of the Mysteries, Pompeii

---         Interesting Links NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 Carol Goodman Homepage The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) Cult  (submitted by Marcie) Real or Fictional ? Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants

Discussion Leaders: Andrea & Ginny

Floor Plan of the Villa of the Papyri by Karl Weber, 1750-.

[Gumtree]

Question for Carol

When Sophie studies the Smorfia tiles looking for patterns that meant something to Ely, as narrator she says: I remember he liked the Fibonacci Sequence, prime numbers, the digits of pi, and palindromic numbers ...

As 'the digits of pi' are devoid of pattern why are they included in this list of sequences in which patterns do occur? The inclusion of prime numbers is also somewhat of a puzzle as there is no formula for evaluating the sequence of the prime numbers. Therefore, what pattern could Ely have found in them?

[Babi]

My computer froze up on me in the middle of reading posts. So irritating.

Countrmm, the new Acropolis Museum is fabulous. Thanks for the link. (I got
to view all that lovely statuary without climbing all those stairs!)

GUM, maybe Sophie was just recalling all the things Ely liked in math, while
exploring for patterns. Oh, well, Carol will be able to explain.  Like Obama and
Bella like to say...."Over my pay scale."   

[ALF43]

i've been catching up on your most recent posts and questions that you've assembled for Carol.
 This is by far one of the best discussions we have had yet on our new site and it is all because of your insightful posts and opinions.  I personally learned a great deal and enjoyed my refresher course in mythology.  I ove what you all have brought to the table- a bit of yourselves.

Deems-- I did land in DC-- well we were diverted to Dulles airport because Reagan and Baltimore were CLOSED!  Our connecting flight was
at Reagan, so you can imagine the mess there- no airline allowed in or out!

[ginny]

This is by far one of the best discussions we have had yet on our new site and it is all because of your insightful posts and opinions

I agree! And now the climax and denouement to come, I can't wait.

Great questions, I thought the watch stealing was for local color since that is what happens and the players  and beggars on the trains, too.

We'll find out, thank you for the great questions!

Funny thing. Last night I had some free time and I  sat down to read to the end. I did not remember it at all. All I had remembered in that first fast read was I never saw it coming.  The sun was setting, I turned on a reading  light, my husband was out on the tractor and I started to read.

After a while  noticed I was clutching the book and nervously talking  mentally to  Phineas.  (What are you thinking? Are you CRAZY?) I noticed it was dark outside, turned on another light.

Jeepers, I read on, there were no lights on in the entire house but the ones around me, kind of spooky, looked mighty dark outside, dark inside too with the book, dark for the characters,  too,  husband still out on tractor, I actually got scared, can you believe that? Talk about overidentification.  I thought why am I reading this before I go to sleep, talk about Pythagoras, and the three questions, the main question for ME is: do you want to SLEEP tonight at all? So I left it off for the day time just at the part  when Sophie and Agnes have decided to go together to find the scrolls!

I'm thinking no, why go with Agnes, huh? Why Agnes, the two of you, HUH? What's going on here? Hello,  Sophie?  What magic has been worked that this makes sense, to her,  what  makes THAT feasible?

So now I'm screaming mentally at Sophie and Phineas and in THAT I guess they are  parallel for me.  Went to bed, first waiting for husband to come in house safely. Nervous. Noticed fire burning in the big burning can where he burned the trash, there's a fire in the dark, too. do de dooo dooo, spooky!

 Can't wait to finish it.


Tomorrow's the day! Try to put your questions up early and let's discuss the end and the whole book together!

[Steph]

Ginny, the name Tombola is familiar. Did you google it? Somewhere overseas I remember people talking and using that term.
I finished the book, so must be careful until tomorrow. I am still mad at Sophy however
Gee ... ginny, I do identify with certain authors and not others and I am still sitting here trying to decide what triggers it. I do know that if Iread  book that I dont like any of the characters, I tend to not want to finish the book...
I do want to read more of Carols work and when I get home, will do my swap stuff and see if I find any. Also if the bookstore across the street from the campground opens, will look for her.

[ALF43]

See Ginny!  I told you that is exactly what I do when I read.  Many times it brings Bill out of his seat to ask me what (?) or to whom I am speaking!  I always hollar and chat, sometimes cry with my characters.  If I don't find myself doing that, it is usually an indication that I do not like the book!  I liked this novel and have "talked trash" with most of the characters.

Unlike, you, Steph, I find it very hard to NOT finish a book even if I don't like it because of a sensitivity to the author I think.

[bellamarie]

Ginny, Indeed why go with Agnes?   grrrrr once again Sophie's danger instincts do not kick in.  She frustrates me to no end!  The night I finished the book, I woke up at 3:00 in the morning and could NOT go back to sleep for nothing.  I had the most unsetteling feeling in me.  I finally fell back to sleep at 6:00 a.m. and had to get up at 6:30.  Needless to say I had myself a very tiring day ahead of me.  All the descriptions in the caves, the bones etc. just down right freaked me out!!

[JudeS]

Well I am the first to post. 
I simply can't believe that my guess- "Wouldn't it be amazing if Sophie and Elgin went off into the sunset to teach Archeology together" came true.
I didn't find the book scary in the least since I was learning about ancient times and couldn't really care about those characters.  I knew Sophie would come out safely since Heroines don't die in Mystery stories , only in tragedies. I also continued to like Elgin throughout and again glad he turned out so well.

Thank you Archeological buffs for all your great information.
 Especially thanks to Ginnny for a superb discussion.
Thanks to Carol for a book we could all love or hate as the case may be.  Nothing milkytoast about this story.

Happy Fathers Day to all the Dads that support their wives mania for fiction!

[PatH]

I'd better plug in my thoughts before more hints of the next section leak through--I've been not reading the last few posts.

So Ely shows up.  According to his own story, he was a believing cult member right up to the end of the five years, when he overheard the plans to shoot Elton, but here he is, acting mighty normal for someone who's been brainwashed, and claiming to be the FBI informer.  I don't believe he is; he didn't claim to be until Sophie told him she didn't know the informer's identity.  So what's he up to?  Part of the Tetraktys agenda?  He gets information from someone in the villa, and it's probably Maria.  She could have planted the poppy and two of the sets of tiles, and she would be likely to primp before going to meet him (after Agnes and Simon were trapped).

I'm mystified as to who, if anyone, Sophie will link up with.  If you look at the tone she uses when talking about the men, she is still in love with Ely, and not at all likely to fall for Elgin, or, for that matter, Lyros.  But she could have a change of heart.

[ginny]

Thanks JudeS, I hope we can start discussing tomorrow this last section.  I guess I should not have talked about half finishing it, but I have not yet finished it, so will do that well before  nightfall. hahahaa  I'll  enjoy, I am sure, reading  your post tomorrow.

Pat is right! Tomorrow's the Day, Everybody!

[PatH]

I sometimes, but not always, identify with characters in books.  In this case, I partially identify with Sophie, though I'm not much like her.

Under normal circumstances I would never have read this book at such a leisurely pace.  After about the first quarter, the book would have swallowed me up and not spit me out again until I'd finished it, probably by reading all night.  But it's been fun doing it this way, and letting it mull around in my brain.  Now I'll leave this discussion and not come back until tomorrow, having read the last quarter and found out how wrong I was.  See you then.

[ginny]

I agree, Pat, Under normal circumstances I would never have read this book at such a leisurely pace.  After about the first quarter, the book would have swallowed me up and not spit me out again until I'd finished it, probably by reading all night.  But it's been fun doing it this way, and letting it mull around in my brain. Me too. And I've been absolutely amazed at how good this group has been about NOT spilling the beans AND not going ahead and as a result it's been a rare experience. Loved it.

I came BACK in to say thank you Countrymm for that fantastic link to the new museum in  Athens, it's all over the news today: Field Trip! hahahaa

Also came in to say also in the news today is TODAY is the DAY for Stonehenge and the neo-Druids, New Age Followers and others who gathered to await the sunrise today, to celebrate the longest day of the year.

They were expecting 20,000 of them before 5 am. I've been there when they were there, and you thought the  Tetratkys were odd. They say they are going to let them touch the rocks! I guess to do that most of us need to go on the solstice.

They are EXTREMELY interesting, and that's putting it mildly. See you tomorrow!

[JoanR]

GINNY!!  I found your game!  Here:

http://www.fieri-boston.org/tombola.htm

Thank goodness Elgin is a good guy - I was rooting for him all along!

I've enjoyed this book so much,  more for the background, I guess, but on the whole it was a really good read.  The discussion was fabulous and it was so great to have Carol come in here and there and answer the questions.  I'm looking forward to her new book.  I've read 3 of her books but not the" Ghost Orchid" or  "The Sonnet Lover".  Now I want to read those too.  I'll be meeting Pedln in NYC on Tuesday - we'll be going to the Strand where I may be able to pick them up.  I know Pedln has a long list of books to look for but I expect she plans to have them shipped.  Say, when are the bookies assembling in person again??  We had such a fabulous time last year!
Have been reading the David Sider book - had to buy it since it was not available in our library system which surprised me. Thanks for pointing us to it!

Bellamarie - I kind of think you watched the Disney film of the Little Mermaid.  Please, please go back to the original Andersen story in an authentic translation.  It may make you weep but it is a fabulous tale - it even involves a quest for an immortal soul.  It's much different from the film and different, too, from the sanitized tales in picture books.  I'm sure you  would like it.  P.S. Don't mind me - I'm always pushing stuff at people!!!

[ginny]

We do need to get together again as a Books Group, wasn't that FUN?


Nooo, THANK you for looking but  it's the Tombola Smorifa we need, the one with the drawings on the back!!! I ran over there and it's a normal tombola game, we need the Smorfia one! We shall get one and play it in memory when we meet again.

Have fun at your lunch and take photos!

Can't wait tilll tomorow, first one in, start right out, check heading or say what you want!  (I have already asked the Ball two things, won't tell you the answer but Carol was right! hahahaa)

[PatH]

OK, I've finished the book (told you I get sucked in) and also had time to cook and eat supper.  I won't say ONE THING about the book until tomorrow, but I want to say something about Stonehenge.  I went there in 1958; back then you could still wander freely among the stones, and I could have touched them anywhere I could reach.  (I didn't, out of respect for what my touch multiplied by thousands would do.)  There were very few people around, so you could take in the feel of the place, and it was a little creepy, with a hint of power to it.  No matter how mistaken are the underlying beliefs, old sacred sites still keep some of their old power.

[bellamarie]

JudeS,

I simply can't believe that my guess- "Wouldn't it be amazing if Sophie and Elgin went off into the sunset to teach Archeology together" came true.

I rooted for Richard Gere and Julia Roberts to ride off into the sunset in Pretty Woman and Runaway Bride..............BUT.....Night Villa was far from a love story, Sophie is far from a Julia Roberts and so riding off into the sunset to teach Archeology together is not necessarily an ending I would expect to ring true to this book.  She lives with Ely, has an affair with Elgin, tells Elgin she would not go on the dig the first time because she did not want him to get the impression she has any feelings lingering from her breaking off their affair, she makes goo goo eyes at Lyros and contemplates sleeping with him one minute, then wraps her legs around Ely the next and we are to believe it was a happily ever after for her and Elgin???   I think NOT!  Although, I along with you and I suspect many others predicted this would be the end, I have to say I was hoping it wouldn't.  But then as fickle as Sophie has been all through the book I should not ask why, I should ask why not?

There is a lot to discuss that happened in this last section, can't wait to hear eveyone's thoughts.

Ciao for now.......................  

[Gumtree]

It might be the longest day of the year for you my dear  Ginny - but for me it is the shortest one - it's fine, but  dreary, no sun and cold - well cold for an Aussie! I've been out in the garden pruning trees which has at least warmed me up and put me in a better frame of mind even though it's left me totally exhausted  

[ginny]

Wow oh wow what a socko ending, Never Saw it Coming II.

Man o man was I wrong or was I wrong? hahaha I had them totally reversed! Laughed out loud at the Magic 8 Ball IN the book  hahaha, have had a wonderful time with the Purdue 8 Ball site in the heading asking it questions, have a go if you like.

So what do you think? Whaddya whaddya?

That was exciting, I must say. I loved the additional puzzles at the end, which path to take?

Gum, IS it the longest day? The Stonehengers seem to think so, it sounds as if you've had The Longest Time out there pruning, what season IS it in Australia now?

Pat you can't get near it now, you walk around Stonehenge on a pretty path with an excellent audio which explains lots of super things. I wouldn't get within a mile of it when they are there,  been there, very very strange people (probably all Tetratkys) VERY odd, doo de doo doo. You are right that the ancient sites STILL have a voice and powers, over a lot of people not just...er...odd people.

Jude, thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed the discussion. I hate to scrape back the chairs and gather up the plates and our books and to leave.

As Bellamarie says we have a lot to discuss yet, hate to see it end.

Did you figure out WHO was in the little shaft with the scroll? That surprised me, too!

What's the climax? That's the part I can't figure out. Can we say the main plot was Sophie so the climax was.....and the secondary plot was Iusta so the climax for her plot was?

If I confessed that right up to the end I STILL thought Lyros would turn out to be a skunk  would you laugh? Every page that kept turning I STILL thought he'd be revealed! hahahaa


I even looked hopefully at the pages following the Epilogue.

So he's not a villain and Maria is not either but yet everybody moved from Lyros's house to the Hotel Convento again, why?


I liked it that Iusta's voice ended the book. I'm not sure why. Poor Telesforus tho, who in real life DID testify against Calatoria, his mistress, in favor of Iusta, took a big chance but he sure got a poor comeuppance in this one, huh?

Here's something I don't know, WHO dropped the original scroll on the courtyard?

Remember that one?

And when?

Putting that one and any question YOU have the ball can't answer maybe Carol can in the heading. Please post your last questions for Carol here today.

What do you THINK?

Would you believe after reading this one I passed by the TV showing  The Talented Mr. Ripley? I love Highsmith and this series particularly, have read it many times, Matt Damon scared me to death this time, I guess I was spooked anyway, so could not watch too much of it, such fun.

Such a fun group you've been here. Let's talk about the end!

[bellamarie]

Ginny, 

Would you believe after reading this one I passed by the TV showing  The Talented Mr. Ripley? I love Highsmith and this series particularly, have read it many times, Matt Damon scared me to death this time, I guess I was spooked anyway, so could not watch too much of it, such fun.

   


Dooooo Dooooo Dooooo Doooo That is the movie I mentioned long time back casting either Matt Damon or Jude Law as Simon.  That is weird you would mention it now.  More later...


Ciao for now......................

[Babi]

I wasn't surprised that Sophie came out all right, JUDE. I was very surprised to
learn that Iusta survived...and how! Not to mention Phineas. I thought he was 'a goner for sure'.

 I see a subtle suggestion, again, that the 'ghost' is real.  When Sophie blows the match out, in that very warm little chapel, her breath condenses in the air like smoke.  That only happens in cold air, and everyonewho has read a ghost story knows the air grows colder when ghosts are around.  As for me, I’m open-minded on the subject.  As I believe in the survival of the spirit,  I have to suppose it is possible that one might have unfinished business here or watch over loved ones.    And I’ve heard first-person stories from people who might have deceived themselves, but would not knowingly deceive others. 

    

[Mippy]

Now that's we've finished, may I ask what the FBI is doing in Italy.  It makes no sense, as to the best of my understanding, the FBI looks at so-called Domestic crimes, and other agencies are more or less looking at foreign crimes.  

Obviously Sophie would survive ...  sorry, Carol Goodman, you didn't make me tremble when it looked like Sophie would be buried alive ...  she had to live to the end of the book.  How could the book conclude without Sophie?   I still think Meryl Streep would be the best actress for the part when this is made into a movie.   Any nibbles from Hollywood, Carol?

I always thought Ely was no good, and Marie was just a red-herring character.
Thanks, Deems, for that red herring explanation, which I kind of recalled from Trollope's hunting scenes.

Agnes as the "bad guy" is confusing to me ... did we have enough hints?   

[ginny]

I didn't think Sophie would have to live to the end, at all?  (And as previously noted, the events of the end scared me to death hhahaa) Had to actually put it down and get up in the sun and finish it.

Why couldn't she have died and the coda have been written by Elgin?

OR even better, by Odette! I need to put Odette back in the questions, what was she doing there? Who IS she, actually?

Even Holmes died (and was resurrected later because of Doyle's Mother's missing him).

____________


That makes me want to ask Carol two more questions:

1. Is Sophie going to have a sequel?
2. Who dropped the scroll in the courtyard originally, when, and why?

And a hearty thanks, as well, to Carol, for your  generosity to us, and for  really writing  a heck of a book, I loved it right to the end, it was perfect for our discussion.

___________________

Babi that's brilliant on the ghost!!

___________________

What did you all like the best about the book? That's Joan R's question, will put it in the heading also.

[Frybabe]

I was very surprised to see that Maria was who she said she was and George stayed in the background. Also surprising was Iustas' and Phineas' ending. I liked that Sophie was able to use what she read in the translation to help her get out of her predicament in the "hole". I wasn't too surprise to see that it wasn't Iusta in the hole with the scroll.

The "informer" was never revealed was he/she? Or was it actually Lyros (who did turn out to be a former cult member)?

So Lyros takes a backseat while Elgin gets to ride off into the sunset with Sophie, it seems. I didn't get a real sense of true romance there at the end though.

Well, it is about time for me to go out and mow the lawn. Ugh! Be back later.

ps: Odette reminds me of the Oracle in The Matrix.
oh, yes and do ask Carol about a sequel. The ending fairly begs for the continuing adventures of Sophie and Elgin.

[ginny]

 The following question had to be removed from the heading when it changed so am posting it here where Carol can see it:

From Gumtree:

At the beginning of Chapter 9 there is an episode when Sophie is on the train and a young girl and a man with an accordion get on. When they leave Sophie asks herself "What was that all about?" and then discovers her watch has been stolen by the child.

 Like Sophie, I'm asking myself What was that all about? Why is this passage in the novel?  What is the purpose or meaning of this incident other than Sophie is now bereft of her watch? Is it just for local colour - to indicate time passing as Sophie waits for the train to move on - or did I miss something?

[ginny]

 The following excellent questions were received in email so am posting them here so Carol can see them.

From bellamarie:

1. Carol, while reading all our posts and how we were researching and tying clues together, did you see where we missed some things that would have given us more insight to what the ending would be?

2. Did you feel at any time when we were posting our likes or dislikes or indifference about Sophie's character that you could understand where we were coming from?

3.  Was it your intent to have Sophie seem strong physically and yet weak emotionally because of her losses? Is this  athletic Sophie YOU, Carol?

4.. When you said in your interview this book would make people see religions in a different way, is it because of the cult mentality of the Tetraktys and their behaviors or did you feel with the Pythagorean theory, Sibyls, fortune tellers and the mythological practices along with the mention of the fanatical Catholic upbringing of Sophie and Agnes's fear of the nuns this all would give reason to ponder?

5. Since the scrolls were the essential story plot from beginning to end, would it be fair to assess ultimately, the theme of the book was about the keys to possessing "The Power" overall?  (the trident in Little Mermaid and Poseidon, the scrolls for the church/ cult/Iusta/Phineas/Calotoria, and the answers to Sophie for her book and possibly her finding closure)

6. Why the mention of the Little Mermaid quilt on Agnes's bed and Sophie going to the mermaid shows?  Were those clues dropped along the way or did I read more into it than what you intended?

7. I was a little taken with Sophie going to the church in the end since she so strongly disliked the fanatical Catholic religion growing up.  Are we to believe Sophie had a change of heart with her Catholic faith in then end, or was that just a way for her to find the statue and Iusta's confession?

6. Was the saying, "many are the narthex bearers, but few are the Bacchoi." to represent anything in particular?  Was it a clue in some way?  I really didn't tie it into anything other than Noah's Ark and the survivors of the volcano.

7. How did you decide to have Odette's voice become the voice to help save Sophie in the end?  Was Odette's voice Sophie's own subconscious voice helping her when her conscious was not clear enough to think it through?  I was a bit troubled a with Odette's voice being the saving grace here, but then as a Christian believer there have been times my mother or other loved ones who have passed away have given me direction and insight to help me in situations by hearing their voices spiritually so I decided to be okay with Odette's voice helping Sophie escape.

8.  Did you enjoy reading our posts, and at any time did we offend you with any of our comments?  If so I apologize in advance.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

[bellamarie]

Mippy, 

Agnes as the "bad guy" is confusing to me ... did we have enough hints?

 

I suspected her not the forlorn little southern Baptist girl from the very beginning as I posted many times.  My Mom always said to watch out for those quiet types, they are sneaky and dangerous.  lolol  The fact I suspected her in the cult made me suspicious of her relationship and motives with Sophie.  My stranger danger feelers were out on her early on.

[joangrimes]

The fact I suspected her in the cult made me suspicious of her relationship and motives with Sophie.  My stranger danger feelers were out on her early on.

Me too Bellamarie. In fact I thought Sophie was really naive not to catch on to Agnes early on.  Oh well so much for that.

Joan Grimes

[bellamarie]

Mippy,

Marie was just a red-herring character.

I would love to talk about what we each saw as red herrings.  What had YOU individually chasing a clue you finally gave up on, or realized in the end it was nothing more than either a what it represented, or indeed was a red herring?  I can't wait to see what you all say.  I will list some of mine:

The tower where Charles Whitman shot fourteen people and wounded others.
The missing book of Sophie's, Agnes borrowed.
"many are the narthex bearer's, but few are the Bacchoi"
Mentions of all the different types of odors.
The girl, guy and woman on the train ride.
Odette's words during Sophie's hospital stay. "If only you had heeded the portents and signs! The code of rings, the message of the tower, the sign of fire in Odette's skin!'   
Sophie in hospital says, "Haven't I gone far enough back now?"  "It's not the direction you should be going in at all," a voice responds. (Odette's voice)
Who was the mystery person Sophie thought outside her window?
Sibyls, and what she scribbled on the three leaves.
Maria  and her family emergency, typing on compugter and aunt.
Count Jacques d' Adelsward Fersen and the whole hint of homesexuality.
Agnes's strong reaction to roofies and date rape and her hating the Catholic nuns.
Tools gone missing from the site, strange stain on north courtyard wall, unlucky #17, Roman numerals rearranged Latin word "I lived"  "I'm Dead"
Simon gave Dionysus's face his own features.
Iusta poor enslaved girl.
Maria dressed like the housekeepers
the Boat
The operative back in Sorrento
cards and game (it was never revealed other than my own theory what they were for and why those dates, why Ely sent them other than to let Sophie know he was present.  But she already knew that when she spotted him a couple of times.)

I'm sure you all  have some more and maybe you can show me where I missed how these tied in to something not making them red herrings.  

[bellamarie]

The biggest surprise for me was the bones were not Phineas or Iusta's in the cave.  I didn't expect them to have survived.  Also finding Iusta's confession in the statue.  I was pleased that the book ended with Iusta's words.  I sensed Phineas really cared for Iusta the night they slept together.  As I stated, I like Phineas (Jonny Dep) with all his flaws.  I was happy to see he and Iusta survived and her last words is the book were,

"How I was saved in the end by one fallible man's love.  That is a story I can trust one day it might make its way back into the light, as I and my beloved were allowed to do, stumbling along a dark road, holding each other's hand."

Now that is a love story I can live with!  The romantic in me got its perfect ending, happily ever after.......ahhhhhhhh 
Kudos Carol, your are great!!!!  Thank you for such an intriguing, infuriating, mysterious, informing and enjoyable book. 

[ALF43]

Bellamarie- you have done an admirable job of listing "red herrings."
Carol will be in shortly to answer many of these.

 As I read and I "don't get it" I place a big question mark at the margin of the page. 
 One of them was answered at the end, which was "who cares about giving voice to Iust after two thousand years?  Why is this important?"
I kept asking this over and over, it became a mantra with me Why, why , why?  Imagine my delight in the ending of this novel!

"this is a story I can trust to no man or woman living, so I entrust it to the dark in the hope that one day it might make its way back into the light, as I and my beloved were allwowed to do, stumbling along a dark road, holding each other's hand.

she entrusted it to the DARK!  Our night goddess.  I loved it that the answer was given to me in Carol's final sentence.  It truly bugged me that I couldn't wrap my head around the answer.

[ALF43]

Pat- about Stonehenge

I have a daughter who is deeply involved with energy medicine and just yesterday she was talking about "stones" and large rocks.  the point that she was trying to make is the belief that these rocks hold the "energy" of times past.  She claims that these massive rocks in our earth (not just Stonehenge) have a memory; an imprint, if you will, of everyone that has touched them.  Have you ever heard of that?  Beside Sedona I've never experienced that feeling when I touch a rock, boulder or a stone and I've always felt I was blessed with an intuitive soul.

[bellamarie]

Thank you Andrea, I had a pad and pen next to me throughout the book and jotted down what I saw as clues, and chased myself in circles looking for connections.  I was never so happy when someone (forgive me for not remembering who) mentioned the red herrings.  I thought alas!  I can now consider some of my things just that.. a red herring. 

I think Iusta's confession was the perfect ending to this book.  I was frustrated with Sophie from the beginning to the end, but for some reason I could accept Iusta's confession.  Maybe had Carol ended Sophie with some form of growth and explanation, I would not have been so frustrated with her even to the very end.  She and Elgin together...ahem, I don't think so.  But Iusta and Phineas I can see that, it is believable, almost like fate or should I say, destiny? 

"I entrust it to the dark"......don't we all do that at times?  I can almost conjecture that its like when I pray and give it up to God, and place my trust in him doing with it what is best. 

[ALF43]

AMENto that - BellaM.  From hence forth, instead of saying I'm going to offer that up and let God take care of it, I shall say "I entrust it to the dark".

[Frybabe]

Bellamarie said:

Maybe had Carol ended Sophie with some form of growth and explanation, I would not have been so frustrated with her even to the very end.  She and Elgin together...ahem, I don't think so.

I wholeheartedly agree with you there Bellamarie. Sophie survived but I didn't see much if any real growth. As far as Sophie with Elgin, I can see them as a team in further adventures, but not as a love match.

[ALF43]

I have a couple of moot points here but why did Ely's father blame Ely for his mother's death?  Was it because she worried about his cult activities?  Was anybody surprised that he became the magos for the Tetraks?

OK, I admit it!  I wanted Ely to come out ahead of the game here, not be the *#*&&^%$ dude that puts everyone else in danger.  I hang my head in shame over his stupidity.  I don't care if he did read Wodehouse or the Hardy Boys to his dying brother why did his his soul become as dark as his eyes?  He kept "telling himself it was his duty, it was for a higher good."
 Yeah right, he gets to that point and now - NOW- he's renouncing the Tetraktys?  Isn't he switching his allegainces just a tad too conveniently from the T's to Catholicism?  I guess Sophie's a better man that I would be by forgiving him.  I couldn't do it, he has betrayed her.

BETRAYAL abounds.  First we have a 2000 yr. old betrayal of Iusta against Phineas, in Herculeneum; Calatoria against Phineas;
enough for her shining little circle! then-Iusta against Calatoria and her rituals;  A betrayal of Dale Henry,  Agnes betrays Sophie, scanning the scrolls and sending them on to a Tetrakyts member and then betraying her underground in the pit, leaving her to rot in the depths of hell.
Ely betrays Sophie , times --too numerous to count.  We even read of Demophoon, the Athenian prince who betrayed Phyllis.
Poor Sam thinks he's betrayed Agnes by initiating her into the cult early on.

Let's see did I miss any other betrayals?  I hate betrayal.  
I am a staunch loyalist.  If I love someone or something I am loyal to a fault!  Betrayal sickens me.

Enough of betrayal  - truly I have the feeling I've missed something important in this betrayal thing.  

(help she shrieks.)

[ALF43]

Frybaby- I don't think Sophie is so hot for Elgin either.  She's a victim of passion, isn't she?  If the mood strikes her, well then, fine.  If not, she moves on. Beware Elgin!

[ALF43]

Damn- the more I think of Sophie the more aggravated I get.  What business did she have rock climbing?  she was a novice, without the "know how."  It didn't matter1  She lowered herself down thru the manhole anyway with the rope secured around her waist, fearful of snakes below.  Nope, I don't think so.

[bellamarie]

Andrea,  

NOW- he's renouncing the Tetraktys?  Isn't he switching his allegainces just a tad too conveniently from the T's to Catholicism?  I guess Sophie's a better man that I would be by forgiving him.  I couldn't do it, he has betrayed her.

ROFLMAO.....Maybe those nuns taking care of him scared the bejesus into him.       (no disrespect intended)  You know what nuns can do.  lolololol  Actually, I found Sophie forgiving him more for herself than for him.  She can let it go now.  When I am not able or willing to give forgiveness, its actually worse on me than probably the person because I carry it around in me like a huge rock.  I feel so much better when I am able to forgive.  Forget....now thats a different case.  lololol

Yes, I think we put betrayal into the theme.  I too hate betrayal.  I, much like you, am loyal to a fault and get terribly upset when someone is disloyal.  

As for Ely's father blaming him for his mother's death, maybe because Ely insisted they leave the bedroom the same all those years, not allowing her to move forward.  Like Sophie said she could hear the mother cry each night in her bedroom.  Ely was selfish to not realize he no longer lived there, he got to move on, his parents loved him so much they kept the room the same per his wishes.  EGADS.....could you just imagine living every day after losing a loved one with the exact things the same as the day he died.  

Andrea, Didn't they say Sophie went mountain climbing with M'lou so she has experience?  I didn't especially like any of the decision making with all of the going down into the caves.  I kept saying HUH???

[PatH]

Why did Ely's father blame him for Ruth's death?  Don't forget that for five years Ely kept silence and didn't contact anyone.  After a few years of this total disappearance, a woman who had already lost her other child would get pretty desperate.