Author Topic: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online  (Read 68756 times)

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #240 on: October 14, 2015, 05:06:52 PM »
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The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

October Book Club Online

Dead Wake
by Erik Larson


"Few tales in history are more haunting, more tangled with investigatory mazes or more fraught with toxic secrets than that of the final voyage of the Lusitania, one of the colossal tragedies of maritime history. It’s the other Titanic, the story of a mighty ship sunk not by the grandeur of nature but by the grimness of man." - ~ New York Times.
 

DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:

Week 1: to "Lusitania a Cavalcade of Passengers" p.89
Week 2: to "Lusitania: Helpful Young Ladies: p.191
Week 3: to "All Points Rumor p. 279
Week 4: to end p.353


For Your Consideration:

 

1."I saw them trying to throw out the [life]boats[as the Lusitania approached land]....and it seemed to me they not equal to it. They were clumsy..."pg. 192  Remembering the Titanic disaster, should something have been done at this point?

2."Submarines active off South Coast of Ireland."   What did Captain Turner do after receiving this message? What should he have done?

3."tears of joy and sweet yearning", President Wilson wrote in his letter to Edith on May 6, 1915.  Is the age of sending/receiving letters over?   What does this mean for future historians/authors?

4. Captain announced that when they entered the "war zone" they would be in the "embrace of the Royal Navy."  What evidence did the Captain have of this protection?

5.A. Scott Berg, in his biography of Woodrow Wilson, states " Franklin Roosevelt idolized him. Harry Truman called him “the greatest of the greats.” And when Richard Nixon moved into the Oval Office, he requested Wilson’s desk for inspiration."  (http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2013/08/woodrow-wilson-biography-excerpt  Is this the portrayal that our author gives in our book? How do you account for the difference?

6.The chairman of Cunard learned of attacks on other ships by submarines in the area that the Lusitania was traveling, but could not send a message to Captain Turner.   Why?

7.  Coming into sight with its 4 funnels, Captain Schwieger wrote in his war log.   "Inexplicable" that the ship was not sent through the North Channel.  Why not?

8. Captain Turner's decision to sail close to shore was contradictory to the Admiralty's advisory to sail "mid-channel."   Why was this decision made?

9."My God, its the Lusitania!" said the pilot of the submarine.  Do you believe Captain Schwieger knew it was the luxury liner before he gave the order to fire the torpedo?

10.Only 6 of the Lusitania's 22 conventional lifeboats got away before the ship went down.  How could that have been prevented and more lives saved?


"It took more persistance than I thought, but I finally found it: dead wake is "the trail of a fading disturbance in the water"- PATH



Discussion Leaders:  Ella & JoanK
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Before we start on our next section  (which begins with Chapter HELPFUL YOUNG LADIES and continues through A QUEEN'S END) I have a couple of comments.

" if President Wilson had responded more forcefully to earlier german attacks involving Americans, if they would have reigned in their subs earlier? - JOANK

I think so, JOAN, certainly they didn't want America in the war did they?   Perhaps we will learn more as we finish the book.  Of course, at the time America was not the superpower it is today.  Great Britain ruled the seas and had for decades.

Ruminating (a word?) on that thought, ships, before and during this period, were dominant in fighting one's enemies; however after WWI and entering WWII I think air power became the weapon of choice, of power.  We still needed ships, of course, particularly carriers to win the war but the bombs by air were taking their place as the necessary weapon.

Do you agree?  And if there is another WWar, God help us, it will be air power with nuclear bombs  Frightening.

Thanks for your post, Belle, we are anxious for the next section to learn more of the ship's fate.   I think we can call it TORPEDOED!

Jonathan

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #241 on: October 14, 2015, 11:20:05 PM »
'Great Britain ruled the seas and had for decades.' Quite right, Ella. And wasn't GB using that might very effectively? Blockading Germany by shutting down her maritime traffic. Even kept German ships holed up in New York among other harbors. The submarine was the German weapon for counter action.

I was very impressed by your judicial decision, Bellamarie:



'This case is dismissed on grounds of wartime events.'

Along with your suspicions of a cover-up, you are convinced that the Lusitania case was an act of war, and not a war crime? No grounds for President Wilson asking for reparations at the Peace Conference after the war. But he was not as distracted by it as much as the country was. In your link to the Scientific American there was this interesting paragraph:

“An act of outrage and terrorism like the destruction of the Lusitania, with its awful loss of life, did more to rouse and stiffen American feeling than any single measure that could have been conceived....The extravagant jubilation with which the crime was everywhere hailed in Germany was the finishing touch to the episode, and greatly intensified the wrathful indignation that and disgust of civilized humanity. It was significant that the American troops should go into action with the battle-cry of ‘Lusitania!’”
 [Scientific American, May 10, 1919]

The book fascinates me. As the author says in his 'Note to Reader:

'I discovere that buried in the muddled details of the affair - deliberately muddled, in certain aspects - was something  simple and satisfying: a very good story....I give you now the saga of the Lusitania, and the myriad forces, large and achingly small, that converged one lovely day in May 1915 to produce a tragedy of monumental scale, whose true character and import have long been obscured in the mists of history.'

The next section describes how it all played out for all those onboared and those who caused it. And those who made a cause out of it.
 
And then there were those  who still couldn't help falling in love despite everything, whether onboard the ship or in the Oval Office.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #242 on: October 15, 2015, 10:46:00 AM »
TOPEDORED!

New questions in the heading!   I'll be back later today, all kinds of things coming  up.


JoanP

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #243 on: October 15, 2015, 12:03:02 PM »
 Catching up -  just  in time for the new batch of questions for this week.

Just a few points before moving on.  While in the San Fran. airport, this photo and article on a new nuclear submarine caught my attention.  I wonder if you saw it...

While reading Ella's post this morning...
"We still needed ships, of course, particularly carriers to win the war but the bombs by air were taking their place as the necessary weapon." - I concluded that we cannot rule out the place of these nuclear submarines in future wars, Lord help us! From the air, from the sea!

 

Michele Obama Christened the sub last Saturday

I'm hunting for the description of the US fleet of nuclear submarines I read last weekend in CA.  Maybe it's just as well I can't find it - it might frighten you as it did me.  Just know, that there are MANY nuclear subs out there, and more in production - just waiting for a reason to use them!

JoanP

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #244 on: October 15, 2015, 12:46:14 PM »
Marjifay, Jonathan - I know what you mean by the overwhelming details the author has included in this book - right down to the engraving on watches retrieved from the wreck.  I don't mind them - as long as we are told of their signicance by the end of the book.  Hopefully they were used to identify passengers...but there were so many!  I did read some of the resources at the end, and Larson seems to take pride in the fact that he has included EVERYTHING that is known about the Lusitania.  Perhaps that is the best explanation we will get for the inclusion of every last detail.

I feel the same way about the questions we are asking about where lies the guilt.  - I sense we might not get a definitive answer by the end of the book.  Our big question - the lack of escort for the Lusitania... I really am hoping that gets answered, but fear we will not. I agree with Bellemarie, there was so much negligence....on all sides, including Captain Turner, I hate to say. It seems that no one realized the danger the Lusitania was sailing into...except Rm 40 who was receiving information about the presence of  submarines in the water close to Ireland.  BUT, did Rm. 40 realize that the Lusitania was taking a different route, that the Lusitania was running late...that the Lusitania was without escort, that the Lusitania's captain had not received the memo about the need to zigzag to confuse the enemy.  So many questions that led to the disaster.  How can the blame be placed?

 I wonder too at what point the existence of Room 40 was revealed?   I hope we find that out too.  That's what I am reading for...that, and the decision not to escort. 

Question #2."Submarines active off South Coast of Ireland."   What did Captain Turner do after receiving this message? What should he have done?

A good question!  I don't remember that he did anything.  Better reread that again.  Was under the impression that he shrugged it off.   Did he not think an escort was needed?  Did he even know he had no escort?
Why didn't he request an escort if/when he realized there was none?
WHY WHY WHY...

JoanK

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #245 on: October 15, 2015, 03:48:39 PM »
And why did he tell the passengers that they WOULD have an escort?

This section is fascinating in a horrifying way. If a thousand details had been different they would have missed each other!

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #246 on: October 15, 2015, 06:47:30 PM »
""Our big question - the lack of escort for the Lusitania" - JoanP

Hi JoanP:  I think Room 40 decided there would be no escort for fear that in doing so the Germans would know their code was broken.  That knowledge was only to be used in case of an all-out attack on their shores.  As I remember reading they knew of the U-20  in the vicinity, knew of its reputation, skill in hitting ships, but were transfixed by their secret code. 

Nothing was ever transmitted to Captain Turner.  And the passengers frequently discussed being escorted to shore; did none of them question their arrival to Turner? 

I'm looking at the map inside the cover of the book, I see exactly where the ship sunk, a few miles off Kinsale Head - in the waters that Germany had designated as "a zone of war."  This was part of the warning in New York newspapers in the shipping news section.  Certainly Captain Turner knew of this warning; apparently it didn't bother him?  Couldn't he have questioned his superiors?

The notice states that "all vessels flying the flag of Great Britain or of any of her allies, are liable to destruction" and that travelers sailing of such ships "do so at their own risk."

The public knew that German and England were at war; I keep thinking I would have taken that warning seriously and stayed home; sent a telegram to friends and relatives overseas.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #247 on: October 15, 2015, 07:37:00 PM »
Is Captain Turner guilty of negligence in his duties?   Shouldn't he have been more attentive in seeing to the lifeboats handled correctly?  Who is in charge of this ship, the very top of the chain?

He received two messages, confusing in nature.(pg206).  He continued on his planned route to Liverpool.  Looking at the little map inside a few pages of the cover you can see the port of Liverpool, how snug it looks, surrounded almost entirely by land, home, safety.  But a captain cannot think of that, he must be prepared at all times for any possible danger. 

Had he heard of other ships being sunk by subs?  Was he telling the truth when he announced to the passengers that they would soon be "securely in the embrace of the Royal Navy."  Where was he getting this from, was he delusional or over-confident? 

Meanwhile, the Cunard's chairman became concerned, and was reassured by the Admiralty's trade division that the Lusitania would be ordered to divert to Queenstown.  No such order was given.

Part of the facts!!!!  As I am skimming over some of  the assigned pages of this section of our book. 

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #248 on: October 15, 2015, 07:48:13 PM »
JOANP - Some years ago- quite a few years ago - on an auto trip down the east coast, we stopped to look at some ships harbored permanently, I think it was in S.Carolina.  You walked out a long dock and there was a WWII carrier anchored there that you could tour and an WWII submarine you could get into and look around.  One other ship was a nuclear submarine which you could only look at - as I remember I was not impressed, hahahaha   You couldn't see a thing on the ship, just a huge hump in the middle, like a Spielberg turtle, and that was all.  There were a few guards around at all times helping you in and out.  I can't imagine men living in a sub for three months at a time, I think we were told.  Such very tight quarters, you were at, around each other,  up/down (bunks) at all times, claustophobia country.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #249 on: October 15, 2015, 07:51:29 PM »
Time for me to get off my soapbox. Let someone else chat awhile.  I get carried away with the history of it all.   My favorite source of reading.

Anyone else ever been in a submarine?   Relatives served in the navy?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #250 on: October 15, 2015, 08:02:09 PM »
Again I think that hind sight is a wonderful concept however, as much as we wish those who died did not give their life without the sinking of the Lusitania who knows what would have prompted us to war with the fever needed to win and so to think of these who died as martyrs to a cause is more appropriate - is there a memorial to those who died during the sinking of the Lusitania? Like the soldiers in Flanders Field we owe them similar respect.

My thinking is as long as we attempt to blame for their deaths we are not honoring their sacrifice - we are the ones who see and determine a sacrifice, the ones who die do not any more than a hero sees themselves and labels themselves as heroes or martyrs to a cause. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanP

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #251 on: October 16, 2015, 09:30:53 AM »
Did find such a monument, at the graveyard in Ireland where many of the passengers were buried.   Barb  Actually it looks more like a gravemarker than something more imposing - or noticeable, which I think you are looking for...


"The sinking of the the Cunard Liner the Lusitania on May 7th 1915 resulted in the deaths of 1,198 of the 1,959 people aboard. It was torpedoed off the Old Head of Kinsale County Cork, by the Germans during World War I.

Many of the victims were brought to Cobh and many are interred in the Old Church Graveyard near Cobh town. The monument, which is in Casement Square in the town centre, designed by Jerome O'Connor commemorates those who died in the tragedy. It depicts two fisherman who went to the rescue of the ill fated liner. Over them is the Angel of Peace.

The event turned public opinion in many countries against Germany, contributed to the American entry into World War I and became an iconic symbol in military recruiting campaigns of why the war was being fought."
http://www.discoverireland.ie/Arts-Culture-Heritage/lusitania-monument-and-graveyard/49743

I've been to Cobh - this is the port from which my great grandparents sailed from Ireland years before the Lusitania sank here.  I spent two days here - and never was aware of the Lusitania cemetery of monument while there.

JoanP

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #252 on: October 16, 2015, 09:43:32 AM »
Ella, yes, I visited one of the nuclear subs in the early 60's.  An uncle was a doctor who was based in (on?) the sub and he took us for a tour.  You wouldn't believe the size of it inside...I did not feel the claustrophobia I expected to feel ...we didn't really go deep at all - just down some stairs.
Must find that article describing the newly-christened Illinois sub - you would really be impressed at the inside...
although I admit it doesn't look like much from above. :)


More on newest submarine:

"The $2.7 billion vessel is the 13th in the Virginia class of submarines, which can carry out a range of missions including anti-submarine warfare, delivery of special forces and surveillance. The 377-foot submarine will carry a crew of more than 130 and a payload of weapons including torpedoes and Tomahawk missiles."

A crew of 130!  Capable of firing those Tomahawk missiles far inland!

"Mrs. Obama called the submarine a "technological wonder."
It is full of technologies like a photonics mast, full of high-resolution and infrared cameras," she said. "It has the most advanced stealth, sonar and communications systems and enough high-definition screens to put Best Buy out of busines."

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #253 on: October 16, 2015, 01:39:27 PM »
I had to smile at that, JOANP - a "sub putting Best Buy out of business."  But if we have such high-tech subs, you can bet  your bottom dollar that others, potential enemies, have the same.  If nations spent as much on  people, climate control,, saving the ocean, etc., as they do weapons of all kind, what a great world, a great future our kids would have.

130 people on a nuclear sub, no I wouldn't have believed it, after my short exploration of a WWII sub- I would be impressed! 

Thanks for the pictures.

BARB, I'm not sure I agree with you that  those who died on the ship were "martyrs"   Passengers on a ship that were aware, most of them, of the danger they might be in and then recklessly made the trip.   I might ask what cause did they die for?

But it is certainly true that the sinking and the deaths of all those people on a luxury liner provoked action  for Woodrow Wilson, he finally woke up, we  hope!.   In this section Larson has him doing nothing much but writing 5-page love letters to Edith, who hasn't as yet agreed to marry him.  What flowery, well, romantic letters he writes.  Rather sloppily in love I say, that's not the word I'm hunting for, but it will have to do.

Back later to explore this section more carefully,  I do remember reading that Schweiger found the sinking to be horrifying and left the scene. 

Schweiger was doing what he was commanded to do, what he was trained to do - killing the enemy.  We did the same  when we got engaged in the war.   Killing our enemies.  Can we lay  any blame on  him?


bellamarie

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #254 on: October 16, 2015, 03:49:29 PM »
I agree, I do not see the passengers dying as martrys.  They did nothing exceptional to show their faith, and they chose to travel during wartime with knowledge of possible danger.  That shows lack of good judgement.  Wilson sitting around crying and writing sappy over letters instead of paying attention to what was going on is rather pathetic.  I have so much more to comment on, but am babysitting grand kids, and she is asking to play my iPhone so I have to give it up.  Later..,
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Jonathan

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #255 on: October 16, 2015, 05:40:08 PM »
Thanks, JoanP, for the link to the Lusitania monument, in Casement Square, Cobh. What an unusual monument with its two fishermen and the Angel of Peace. Obviously the tragedy had a very special meaning for the designer, Jerome O'Connor. The symbolism seems unique. Were the 1198 war casualties martyrs? Of course. Martyrs for peace. They only wanted to go about their peaceful lives and were not permitted to do so.

Grand kids are such fun, but they do make martyrs of us occasionally.

PatH

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #256 on: October 16, 2015, 11:11:57 PM »
Depending on what you think the British government was up to, you could call the victims sacrifices--sacrificed by someone to foster their own idea of how the war should go, or sacrificed to incompetence.

bellamarie

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #257 on: October 17, 2015, 01:51:06 AM »
mar·tyr
ˈmärdər/
noun
1.  a person who is killed because of their religious or other beliefs.  "saints, martyrs, and witnesses to the faith"
verb
1. kill (someone) because of their beliefs.  "she was martyred for her faith"

I just finished teaching a lesson to my religion class a couple weeks ago on martyrs, so maybe I am taking the word literally, rather than loosely.  By the definition of the word, it could not apply to the passengers on this ship.  They were not killed because of their faith or beliefs.  These countries were at war, and if anything they were killed to drag the United States into the war, it had nothing to do with "faith" or religion, or peace for that matter.  Those who are being beheaded in the middle east or killed recently in Oregon, because they answered yes to the question if they were Christians, are what I would consider martyrs.

PatH., Yes, indeed I could see the passengers as victims of war.  The sad thing is, they were aware of the war and yet decided to put themselves in harm's way. 

I just shake my head after reading these chapters and wonder why there was so little attention and concern by not only the passengers but the owner of the ship, the president, the captain of the ship, etc., etc.  The incompetence on so many levels leaves me speechless.  No drill or instructions when they first board the ship on how to put the life vests on properly, no drills on lowering the lifeboats, nothing but instructions in their rooms.  Why would you keep the life vests in each person's room?  People had to run back to get a life vest putting themselves in more danger.  So much could and should have been avoided.  It does appear only one torpedo was fired, and then the second explosion which could very well have been the ammunition on board.  Like I said, I just shake my head.

Jonathan,  My grandkids are my angels, every second I spend with them is pure joy.  No martyr here, just Nonnie!    :) 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #258 on: October 17, 2015, 08:10:48 AM »
 " I think Room 40 decided there would be no escort for fear that in doing so the Germans would know their code was broken.  That knowledge was only to be used in case of an all-out attack on their shores.  As I remember reading they knew of the U-20  in the vicinity, knew of its reputation, skill in hitting ships, but were transfixed by their secret code. " Ella

I guess I'm still not clear on the relationship between  the group who gathered in Room 40 privy to the information provided by the code breakers - and those in the  Navy who provided protection/escorts for British ships, warships, cargo ships, passenger ships... Were they the same men group of men? 

If not, I can't understand why the decision was made to allow the Lusitania to sail into these dangerous waters unprotected.   Was it simply ignorance or lack of information known only by the men in Room 40?

On the other hand, if the same men gathered in Room 40 were in command and made the decision to allow the Lusitania to sail in unprepared and unprotected, knowing what they did , in my mind, they are guilty of...of murder..  I can understand Room 40 wanting to keep the code secret - as long as they believed others were monitoring the activity in those waters and were taking steps to protect ships in these dangerous waters

Can anyone explain Room 40's role in this?  Did they merely gather information - or actually command the Navy?  I guess I can't understand why providing an escort for the Lusitania would have given away the secret information obtained in Room 40.  Hadn't the Germans already warned of the dangers facing the Lusitania - before she left the New York harbor?

Am I missing something?

JoanP

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #259 on: October 17, 2015, 08:28:43 AM »
If those who drowned were martyrs, how do you consider those who survived?  We are learning from Erik Larson about those who did survive....not only those who were able to board the lifeboats, but those who seemed to spend hours in the water waiting for help.  Wasn't it something of a miracle they lived?

I remember thinking of the water temperature in May, when we first began the voyage.  Knowing the ship would go down - at least there would be no freezing temps, ice - as with the Titanic. I took some comfort that the survivors would have a better chance in spring temperatures.  I think if memory serves, the water temperature at this time of year was in the mid 50's, right?

Near the end of this section, Larson writes - "Fifty five degrees was not not nearly as cold as the water confronted by the Titanic passengers...but a drop in the body's internal temperature of just 3 or 4 degrees from the norm of 98.6 degrees - enough to kill over time."

Considering shock, injury, the 55 degree temperatures...and the time in the water before rescue - it was a miracle there were any survivors, don't you think?

PatH

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #260 on: October 17, 2015, 09:09:49 AM »
Martyrs--faith plays no part in this incident (except, presumably, as a personal help to individuals) so the drowned are not martyrs in the literal sense.  You could call them that figuratively, in the same way you might say "I'm a martyr to headaches".

JoanP, I have trouble figuring out the chain of command too.  Room 40 seems to be an information-gathering section of the Admiralty.  Churchill, as First Lord of the Admiralty, presumably WAS in charge of the Navy, as well as Room 40, and Jacky Fisher, as First Sea Lord, was his second in command.

I agree that providing an escort for Lusitania wouldn't have given anything away.  The Germans had given very clear warning, the British had to know there were submarines in the area, since three ships had already been torpedoed, an escort had been provided on Lusitania's last trip, and there were suitable destroyers in the area.  An escort would seem to be a routine precaution.  Either Room 40 was being paranoid, or stupid, or they had some other agenda.

PatH

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #261 on: October 17, 2015, 09:13:51 AM »
Quote
Considering shock, injury, the 55 degree temperatures...and the time in the water before rescue - it was a miracle there were any survivors, don't you think?
Yes, and they only successfully deployed 6 of the lifeboats.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #262 on: October 17, 2015, 10:15:31 AM »
Many inconceivable situations in this history.  President Wilson.   I can't believe the portrait that Larson is writing of this man.  This is the prior President of Princeton, Governor of N.Jersey, elected president and Larson has him both depressed and ecstatic over a woman.  I must read a biography of the man.  I did skim an article and here is one paragraph:

'Wilson's administration fundamentally altered the nature and character of the presidency. He changed it from an equal or lesser partner with Congress to its superior—the dominant branch of government. This is exactly what Wilson had in mind upon his assumption of office. He intended to lead his party and the nation much as the prime minister of England leads Parliament. Before setting forth his program, Wilson consulted extensively with congressional leaders to ensure that his programs would be dealt with sympathetically when Congress considered them. In April 1913, at the opening of a special session of Congress called by the President to consider tariff reform, Wilson appeared personally before a joint session of the House and Senate to explain his program. His speech made headlines because no President had addressed Congress personally since John Adams, and it demonstrated that Wilson intended to play a dominant role in policy making."

I found that interesting due to what is going on in our government today.   But back to questions:


Ella Gibbons

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #263 on: October 17, 2015, 10:17:54 AM »
Somewhere in these chapters (I must look it up) is a suspicion that it was a deliberate decision not to send a convoy to the Lusitania; thereby provoking the United States to enter the war.  I went googling and found:

"What concerns the author is that the British, knowing a U-boat was prowling in the area where the Lusitania was sailing, failed to divert the ship to another, safer route, or failed to provide a destroyer escort for the passenger liner, as they could have easily done: "Nothing, absolutely nothing was done to ensure the liner's safe arrival," Beesly notes. On the basis of the evidence available to him by the early 1980s, Beesly was "reluctantly driven to the conclusion that there was a conspiracy deliberately to put the Lusitania at risk in the hopes that even an abortive attack on her would bring the United States into the war. Such a conspiracy could not have been put into effect without Winston Churchill's [at the time Churchill was First Lord of the Admiralty -- ed.] express permission and approval." Beesly's research thus supports the conclusions reached by Colin Simpson in his earlier revisionist work on the topic, The Lusitania" - ROOM 40 by Patrick Beesly


ginny

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #265 on: October 17, 2015, 11:27:59 AM »

There's more than one kind of martyr: from  Webster's Dictionary:
Full Definition of MARTYR
1
:  a person who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty of witnessing to and refusing to renounce a religion
2
:  a person who sacrifices something of great value and especially life itself for the sake of principle
3
:  victim; especially :  a great or constant sufferer <a martyr to asthma all his life — A. J. Cronin>

Origin of MARTYR:

Middle English, from Old English, from Late Latin, from Greek martyr-, martys witness

First Known Use: before 12th century

ginny

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #266 on: October 17, 2015, 11:30:57 AM »
I keep wondering about the passengers. Nobody in their right mind wants to sail into a war zone. Why did they go? I hope to find out in this section's reading. WERE they in fact promised something else than sure death? Did the survivors say anything about this?

ginny

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #267 on: October 17, 2015, 12:06:02 PM »
I think in the matter of why the passengers sailed, I'd like to collect some evidence, like solving a mystery: Page 116:

"Turner had no concern about the German warning.  Shortly before departure, he was standing on the ship's promenade deck, talking with Alfred Vanderbilt and Charles Frohman, when one of the ship-news men--apparently not Jack Lawrence--approached and asked Vanderbilt if he thought he'd be as lucky this time as he had been in deciding not to sail on the Titanic. Vanderbilt smiled but said nothing.

Turner put his hand on Vanderbilt's shoulder and said to the reporter, ' Do you think all these people would be booking passage on board the Lusitania if they thought she could be caught by a  German submarine? Why it's the best joke I've heard in many days, this talk of torpedoing the Lusitania.'

Both Vanderbilt and Turner laughed."


ginny

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #268 on: October 17, 2015, 12:56:41 PM »
I think I'm caught up. :)

It's very well written, isn't it, the way he dodges back and forth between exciting things. I love his style of writing. I  had just watched a documentary of the sinking of the Costa Concordia with film by the passengers own cameras, and what he describes as happening is virtually the same. Confusion, panic, passengers taking over the lifeboats as they launched and the disastrous effects.

But the thoughts of the passengers about the risk  are before that, and they all are saying the same things or the ones I'm reading were.

193: the passengers expected an escort: "She noted that she and fellow passengers expected British naval vessels to rendezvous with the ship that day, to provide escort."

207: As quoted before: the captain "assured the audience that they would soon be securely in the embrace of the Royal Navy."

217 "We had been told that we were protected all the way by warships, wireless, and that submarine destroyers would escort us in the channel."


225: The speed of the sub at maximum was 15 knots." Schweiger's friend said, "After the early days of the war, you rarely had a chance to  loose a torpedo at any warship as big as a cruiser, and many a  U boat never caught sight of one during the entire war."

240: Even after the torpedo struck,  one passenger remarked that "the German bluff" was real.

I don't think that the passengers knew the full danger. I think they were reassured by  a great many people that it couldn't happen. I think the Captain didn't believe it himself.

236: I'm not smart enough to understand why one ship traveling at 22 knots (estimated by Schweiger) could not be overtaken by a torpedo travelling 44 mph from a ship going at a max of 15 knots behind.

And so many unfortunate coincidences seemed to doom the ship. The messages received were confusing. Was that from the Admiralty? Stay close to the shore, go out in the middle of the shore, run fast as you can. The captain chose to turn. And slow.

I think the passengers trusted the captain, the Admiralty, and the promised escort and had no more fear than you or I would in a plane.  I worried about terrorists blowing up one of those huge ferries I was on,  crossing to Crete. People always worry, about planes crashing and ships sinking, but if they are assured over and over it's OK, I don't see how anybody could blame them.

264: In answer to Ella's question way back there, about what do we think of Shweiger?  That's an excellent question.

 Schweiger's reasoning as he saw the panic on the deck after the strike:

"It was the most terrible sight I have ever seen. It was impossible for me to give any help. I could have saved only a handful. And then the cruiser that had passed us was not very far away and must have picked up the distress signals. She would shortly appear, I thought.  The scene was too horrible to watch, and I gave orders to dive to twenty meters, and away."

Realistically whom could he have saved in his little sardine? He could have stayed surfaced with them clinging and then had to dive when the British approached or torpedoed him, and they would then have all have been killed.

What an awful thing for both sides to experience. Did Schweiger NOT know what it was? He was the one who shot it. I need to read that part  again. You get so caught up in the excitement you miss stuff, if it's there at all.   It makes one wonder what one would have done, had one been in his shoes. What would YOU have done, I wonder, or me about trying to help.   An excellent question, Shweiger's reputation has not been the best and this, to me, casts a different eye on it.


bellamarie

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #269 on: October 17, 2015, 01:06:47 PM »
As far as I can surmise it was the message Turner received telling him there were "submarines" plural that had Turner confused, resulting in his decisions that then put the Lusitania into the path of the U-20.

pg. 336 reading on my ipad Air.....On THE BRIDGE, Turner received a new message from the Admiralty that confused things further:  "Submarines 5 miles south of Cape Clear, proceeding west when sighted at 10 a.m." 

The Lusitania had already passed Cape Clear.  If correct, this message indicated the threat might also be past__the submarines, plural again, were behind and heading out to sea.  Captain Turner congratulated himself on apparently missing these in the fog.  He knew that even if their commanders now spotted the smoke from the ship's funnels and turned around, they would have no hope of catching up.  While this offered some comfort, there was still the matter of the earlier report of submarines active in St. George's Channel, south of the Coningberg Light Vessel, dead ahead.

On the Lusitania's bridge, Captain Turner faced a dilemma that nothing in his long experience at sea had prepared him to manage.  If the morning's wireless messages, were correct, there were U-boats directly ahead of him, and behind.  On top of this, he faced a timing problem.  Liverpool at this point still lay about 250 nautical miles ahead.  At the entrance to the city's harbor bay the notorious Mersey Bar, which he could pass only at high tide.  If Turner accelerated and proceeded at the highest speed he could achieve with only three boiler rooms in operation, or 21 knots, he would arrive far too early.  With stopping out of the question, he would be forced to circle in the Irish Sea, smoke billowing from the ship's three operating funnels in open invitation to any submarine within a radius of twenty miles.

There was another dimension to the problem.  The time was now just past noon.  No matter what speed Turner traveled, he would end up having to pass through the St. George's Channel at night, with fog an every-present danger.  As it was, the fog that had enclosed the ship all morning had left Turner with a less precise sense of his location than he would have liked.  Compounding this imprecision was the fact that he was farther from the coast than usual__about 20 miles, when in fine weather he might come as close as 1 mile.  He called his two most senior officers to the bridge, Staff Captain Anderson and First Officer John Preston Piper, to ask their advice, and at length reached a decision.  First he would pinpoint his location.  Once Turner knew his precise position, he planned to maintain a speed of 18 knots so that he would arrive at the Mersey Bay early the next morning, at just the right time to enter the harbor without pause. 

Turner planned as well to alter his course later in the day to bring the Lusitania closer to shore, so that he would pass near the Coningbeg Light Vessel before entering the narrowest portion of the St. George's Channel.  He understood that his contravened the Admiralty's advisory that captains pass lightships and other navigational markers at "mid-channel."  But the Admiralty had reported submarines 20 miles south of the lightship, a location that any mariner traversing that 45-mile-wide stretch would have described as midchannel.  To follow the Admiralty's advisory would have meant sailing directly toward the waiting submarines.


Then of course we can't forget the fact....... Alfred Allen Booth, chairman of Cunard, learned of the attacks of the Centurion, the Candidate, and the schooner Earl Of Lathom while reading his morning paper.  He knew his company's flagship was due to travel the same waters that very day.  He met with the senior naval officer at Liverpool, Capt. Harry Stileman, and pleaded with him to take measures to protect the Lusitania.  Booth urged that a message be sent to Turner, notifying him that the two Harrison Line ships had been torpedoed and sunk.  Under war rules, Booth was not himself empowered to send a warning, or an other command, directly to Turner.  Booth came away believing that a detailed message would be sent and that the Admiralty would order the Lusitania to divert to Queenstown, well short of Liverpool, until immediate U-boat threat was past.

The message was apparently the product of Chairman Booth's plea, but it fell short of what he had asked for.  Only eighteen words long, it conveyed no details about what had occurred over the previous twenty-four hours.  Captain Turner, the one man at that moment who needed details the most, never learned of the loss of the two Harrison Line vessels and the Earl of Lathom.


So even though there were no escorts for the Lusitania, and there was intent to drag the United States into the war by sinking ships with Americans on them, and all the other prior actions factoring in......the fact that Turner did NOT receive accurate, clear information in that last message was what I would consider the major factor in the sinking of the ship.  He could have taken a different course, with the correct information.  One letter "S"  making submarine plural rather than single made all the difference, along with him not knowing what had occurred just 24 hrs. prior.

Can we call it human error?  An accident of typing an "S", where there should not have been one?
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #270 on: October 17, 2015, 01:23:59 PM »
Ginny we were posting at the same time.  You asked..."Did Schweiger NOT know what it was?"

pg. 363 on my ipad Air....By now his pilot, Lanz, was standing next to him at the periscope.  Schwieger stepped aside and let Lanz peer through the eyepiece.  Lanz could identify ships, even small ones, by their silhouettes and deck configurations.  This one was easy.  An instant after looking through the eyespice, Lanz said, "My God, it's the Lusitania."

Schwieger's log indicates that he only now learned the ship's true identity, but this seems implausible.  The ship's profile__its size, its lines, its four funnels__made it one of the most distinctive vessels afloat. 


As far as the passenger's decision to board a ship during war time, with warnings being posted in the newspaper the ship would be entering dangerous waters, I have to conclude they decided to put their fate in the hands of the ship's owner, captain and crew.  Just as we all do when we travel on ships, planes, buses, trains etc.  BUT....I personally take every precaution before traveling, especially when I know there are unsettled nations, such as in the Middle East today.  Every reassurance could not get me to go in a place where danger has been posted.  So yes, each and every one of the passengers had culpability in their demise.  Ultimately, it was their own personal choice to ignore the warnings. 

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
« Reply #271 on: October 17, 2015, 01:36:30 PM »
My grandson from NC was here all day yesterday - he and his friend are on a road trip going south and across the southern part of the US then turning north in New Mexico on to Seattle Washington visiting friends and family along the way - what a fun day...

I am  probably behind but want to add my two cents...

 ;) Funny to me, looks like we can all find a definition of martyr with varying explanations - I used 2 and 3 from this definition.
    noun:
  • a person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion.
  • a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause:
    a martyr to the cause of social justice.
  • a person who undergoes severe or constant suffering:
    a martyr to severe headaches.
  • a person who seeks sympathy or attention by feigning or exaggerating pain, deprivation, etc.

--- It is not the punishment but the cause that makes the martyr.
Saint Augustine


--- A martyr can never cooperate with death, go to death in a way that they're not trying to escape.
Stanley Hauerwas


--- It is proven in a number of hadeeths that the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said that the one who dies by drowning, or because of the plague or a stomach disease (diarrhoea) is a martyr. So the one who dies of the plague is a martyr, the one who dies of a stomach disease is a martyr, the one who drowns is a martyr, the one who is crushed by a falling wall is a martyr, the one who is killed for the sake of Allah is a martyr, the one who dies for the sake of Allah is a martyr, and there are a number of others who are martyrs.


Memorial to martyred mariners rededicated

--- ...a memorial service was held at Fort Greene Park in Brooklyn, near the Brooklyn Navy Yard, rededicating a monument to the men interred in a vault that lies below it...The men honored by the memorial and who lie beneath it are victims of one of the most terrifying acts of inhumanity to have occurred in America. They are the merchant seamen and privateers who served valiantly on the side of the colonials in the Revolution and who died under barbaric circumstances.

In 1780 the British had anchored a flotilla of 12 former men-of-war and hospital ships in Brooklyn's Wallabout Bay. Crowded together in the most unsanitary circumstances, prisoners were given little food, no medical attention and a great deal of abuse and neglect, all as an incentive for them to change their minds and join the King's Navy.

Aboard the filthy ships, disease was rampant. The corpses of those who died on the prison vessels in New York Harbor - a total of between 11,500 and 12,500 men - were either rowed to shore and placed in shallow graves or unceremoniously tossed overboard by their British captors.

The worst of these prison ships was the H. M. S. Jersey, a decommissioned warship, on which 1,100 men were crowded together between decks. About a dozen prisoners died each night aboard the Jersey from dysentery, typhoid, smallpox, yellow fever, food poisoning, starvation and torture. When the war ended in 1783, aboard the entire prison fleet there were only 1,400 survivors, all of them ill and emaciated.

After the Revolution ended, the newly-formed U.S. Navy occupied the Brooklyn Navy Yard site on Wallabout Bay. When the Navy began expanding the yard, the remains of thousands of these sailors were found in the muddy bottom as the bay was dredged to build new drydocks. In 1808, as much of the remains as possible were dug up and reburied on the grounds of the nearby John Jackson estate.


--- The myth of the “sneak attack” on Pearl Harbor is a pillar of the “Greatest Generation” ... Now that we know how FDR lied us into that war, however, the picture becomes a bit .... the attack, and the events preceding it, through the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). ..... They are our outstanding military martyrs.

--- James Chaney, an African- American and a Mississippian, one of three American civil rights workers who were murdered during Freedom Summer ... Instead, this unspeakable act galvanized the conscience of a Nation ... ago soldiers on the Normandy beaches of D-day, fighting for liberty and democracy. Like those heroes, Schwerner, Chaney, and Goodman are martyrs to the cause of freedom.

--- Emily Wilding Davison became a martyr for the cause of women's rights

--- INEZ MILHOLLAND (1886-1916) is the United States suffrage martyr. Inez gave her life while campaigning for the right of American women to vote. We honor Inez during 2016, her centennial observance year,

Pearl Harbor was to the military a surprise attack - and yet, they too could have been saved - we memorialize the dead as martyrs and emotionally react to the bubbles of oil that still rise to the surface where lay the dead that most call martyrs to the cause of the values of liberty and justice for all.

D-Day is often said those who live were heroes and those who died were martyrs for the cause of freedom.

We often use the word martyr to the cause when someone stands and speaks in either the House or Senate for the grueling hours required to filibuster a bill.

Rereading the early chapters as folks prepared they appeared to believe in the strength of the ship to withstand an attack - no one really had a good understanding yet of the kind of damage that could be inflicted by a submarine. From what they packed and the success in life many had achieved I do not think they felt fool hardy taking an unnecessary trip to taunt the enemy and then were shocked because the enemy acted.

And again we have time and time again known that folks die who could have been saved had they known this or that - we treat the 9/11 victims as martyrs - some could have been saved if they went down instead of up and to this day one fireman's father, a fireman himself is wracked with guilt because he advised his son during the last cell conversation to go up. It appears that 9/11 was more of a surprise attack than nearly any other attack in history - as we learn in most instances there was foreknowledge kept from the survivors over and over.

Often we read that anyone or group who because of their death changes the course of history that person or group are called Martyrs and in that context I see the dead from the Lusitania as Martyrs and the living as Heroes whose life and death actions catapulted the US into a war along with the Zimmermann Telegram. In so doing we preserved Democracy. The purpose of risking our lives can be many - the principles of a religion being one and the principles of a governing ideals another down to the those who will risk their life trying an experimental drug and who die in the pursuit of curing millions - some die from a drug knowingly and others, like the many in Africa who were martyrs to the cause of a cure as they were injected with no knowledge of the risk, as guinea pigs by Bayer.

Again, I see it is we who see a death as heroic and therefore considered martyrdom - for us the idea of strapping bombs around our middle and blowing our selves up is a heinous crime and yet there is a whole swath of folks on this earth who call them martyrs - To me those who died on the Lusitania are martyrs - to others they were fool hardy that deserve little sympathy. So be it...
    [/list]
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    Ella Gibbons

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    Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
    « Reply #272 on: October 17, 2015, 06:43:16 PM »
    Thanks for all those wonderful comments -  the many definitions of martyrs.  My 40-50 year old dictionary, that big, heavy red book is used as a prop for my computer screen - when I got a new desk I needed height and the dictionary was just the thing.  I think the word invokes many images, doesn't it?  History is full of them.

    Did you all take a look at those pictures of Bletchley Park where Room 40 was established and the same place where that famous enigma machine in WWII (Japanese code-breakers) were situated.  Do take another look, see those early code breakers and Bletchley Park, Room 40.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3179749/The-Bletchley-Park-New-exhibition-reveals-secrets-Room-40-codebreakers-hidden-heroes-won-World-War-One.html

    "It's very well written, isn't it, the way he dodges back and forth between exciting things. I love his style of writing." - Ginny

    Yes, he tells the tale in a very exciting style, keeps you reading, even though you know the end well.  It could be fiction, the way he tells it.

    Has anyone seen the movie - THE IMITATION GAME?  I think that's about this very story, is that true?  There is something on Youtube about it, but for some reason my computer is not making any sounds whatsoever, I can't make head nor tail of any of it  I must find a reason.

    "If the morning's wireless messages, were correct, there were U-boats directly ahead of him, and behind" - pointed out by Belle

    Thanks for the remarks, Belle, as I remember it, and do correct me if I'm wrong, I think Captain Turner decided, in the midst of those confusing messages, to proceed as he regularly had.

    " it is we who see a death as heroic and therefore considered martyrdom "  Yes, Barbara, I think we can agree.  Thanks for the thoughtful post!

    .

     

    JoanK

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    Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
    « Reply #273 on: October 17, 2015, 06:50:09 PM »
    ELLA: the link you posted to the memorial to Room 40 is amazing! Of course, they see the code breakers there as heroes.

    According to the article, what caused the US to enter the war was not the sinking of the Lusitania (which is never mentioned) but the "Zimmerman letter", a telegram from the German foreign Secretary to Mexico which was intercepted and decoded by a Room 40 expert (and presumably passed on to President Wilson). In it, Germany promised to restore Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona to Mexico if Mexico would join Germany in a war against the US.

    Apparently, when this was decoded, the code breaker announced "We have just won the war!"


    PatH

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    Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
    « Reply #274 on: October 17, 2015, 07:10:16 PM »
    Ginny:
    Quote
    236: I'm not smart enough to understand why one ship traveling at 22 knots (estimated by Schweiger) could not be overtaken by a torpedo travelling 44 mph from a ship going at a max of 15 knots behind.
    Yes, a torpedo could overtake a ship under those conditions.  Schwieger wasn't firing from behind Lusitania, He was pointed toward the side of the ship, which was moving across his field of vision.  He had to fire ahead of where the ship was, so that by the time the torpedo reached the ship's path, the ship would have caught up and the two would intersect.  He calculated for a perfect 90 degree hit amidships, but Lusitania could have spotted the torpedo and quickly turned, or slowed, causing a miss, hence the suspense.  She didn't, but he also miscalculated her speed, so hit farther forward than he meant to.

    JoanK

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    Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
    « Reply #275 on: October 17, 2015, 07:13:02 PM »
    The Zimmerman letter is amazing! It tells me two things. first, the people in Room 40 were well aware how much it could tip the scales if the US joined the war and added their forces to the effort.

    Second, the German leaders WERE crazy! All along I've been thinking "Why would the Germans provoke the US. What could they possibly gain by the US entering the war. they couldn't possibly hope to capture and retain a country so big and far away. And if the US forces in Europe were beaten, all they had to do was go home.

    Am I missing something? Well, with Mexico fighting (maybe they approached Canada as well) maybe they could get something? What? 

    BarbStAubrey

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    Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
    « Reply #276 on: October 17, 2015, 08:53:57 PM »
    JoanK from what I understand they were looking for prestige - they wanted to be on an equal footing in Europe with France, England and Russia - the way to do that was to fight a significant enemy and win.

    If I remember correctly Maximilian was the brother of Franz Joseph - therefore they must still have had contacts - part of the prestige enjoyed by European nations that Germany was late in the game acquiring was colonies that their power would control - they had a few in Africa but not near the Colonial power of England or France - so maybe they were dreaming of a footprint in the Americas and by winning they would have some clout over the biggest power in the Americas therefore, legitimizing their acquiring a colony in South or Middle America.

    Who knows - I've ordered from a third party seller - "Germany's Aims in the First World War" by Fritz Fischer - that should clarify things I would think.
    “A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

    JoanK

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    Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
    « Reply #277 on: October 17, 2015, 09:10:22 PM »
    BARB: that must be why Hitler invaded Russia later. the book sounds interesting. Let us know what you find out. After the discussion is over, you can poist it in non-fiction.

    By the way, I should have said the German LEADERS were crazy. I've changed the post.

    JoanK

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    Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
    « Reply #278 on: October 17, 2015, 09:12:23 PM »
    BARB: that sounds interesting. I hope you let us know what you learn (in non=fiction, after this discussion).

    bellamarie

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    Re: Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online
    « Reply #279 on: October 17, 2015, 10:25:46 PM »
    Ella
    Quote
    Has anyone seen the movie - THE IMITATION GAME?  I think that's about this very story, is that true? 
    I posted early I had seen the movie.  I don't think it is about this actual story.  But yes, Turing did break the codes and invent the first computer in the Imitation game.  As far as I can remember, and I could be foggy since it was a few years back, I don't remember the Lusitania being mentioned in the movie. The movie dealt mostly with the code breaking and it bringing a sooner end to the war and saving thousands of lives in doing so.

    Ella
    Quote
    I think Captain Turner decided, in the midst of those confusing messages, to proceed as he regularly had.

    Because Turner was confused by the most recent messages, he had every intention to pinpoint his exact location and change the course.  He was having the lookout crew members going through the points when they got torpedoed.   
    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden