Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online

[PatH]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

October Book Club Online

Dead Wake
by Erik Larson

"Few tales in history are more haunting, more tangled with investigatory mazes or more fraught with toxic secrets than that of the final voyage of the Lusitania, one of the colossal tragedies of maritime history. It’s the other Titanic, the story of a mighty ship sunk not by the grandeur of nature but by the grimness of man." - ~ New York Times.

DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:

Week 1: to "Lusitania a Cavalcade of Passengers" p.89
Week 2: to "Lusitania: Helpful Young Ladies: p.191
Week 3: to "All Points Rumor p. 279
Week 4: to end p.353

For Your Consideration:

 

1."I saw them trying to throw out the [life]boats[as the Lusitania approached land]....and it seemed to me they not equal to it. They were clumsy..."pg. 192  Remembering the Titanic disaster, should something have been done at this point?

2."Submarines active off South Coast of Ireland."   What did Captain Turner do after receiving this message? What should he have done?

3."tears of joy and sweet yearning", President Wilson wrote in his letter to Edith on May 6, 1915.  Is the age of sending/receiving letters over?   What does this mean for future historians/authors?

4. Captain announced that when they entered the "war zone" they would be in the "embrace of the Royal Navy."  What evidence did the Captain have of this protection?

5.A. Scott Berg, in his biography of Woodrow Wilson, states " Franklin Roosevelt idolized him. Harry Truman called him “the greatest of the greats.” And when Richard Nixon moved into the Oval Office, he requested Wilson’s desk for inspiration."  (http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2013/08/woodrow-wilson-biography-excerpt  Is this the portrayal that our author gives in our book? How do you account for the difference?

6.The chairman of Cunard learned of attacks on other ships by submarines in the area that the Lusitania was traveling, but could not send a message to Captain Turner.   Why?

7.  Coming into sight with its 4 funnels, Captain Schwieger wrote in his war log.   "Inexplicable" that the ship was not sent through the North Channel.  Why not?

8. Captain Turner's decision to sail close to shore was contradictory to the Admiralty's advisory to sail "mid-channel."   Why was this decision made?

9."My God, its the Lusitania!" said the pilot of the submarine.  Do you believe Captain Schwieger knew it was the luxury liner before he gave the order to fire the torpedo?

10.Only 6 of the Lusitania's 22 conventional lifeboats got away before the ship went down.  How could that have been prevented and more lives saved?

"It took more persistance than I thought, but I finally found it: dead wake is "the trail of a fading disturbance in the water"- PATH

Discussion Leaders:  Ella & JoanK

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[PatH]

Right, Bella, most of the Room 40 stuff and all of the Bletchley Park stuff was after our story.

I particularly liked the bit about Room 40's crack decoder who did his best work while soaking in a hot bath.  Given the temperature of British rooms, especially during wartime, I'm guessing that's the only way he could warm up enough for his brain cells to function.

[bellamarie]

3."tears of joy and sweet yearning", President Wilson wrote in his letter to Edith on May 6, 1915.  Is the age of sending/receiving letters over?   What does this mean for future historians/authors?

The age of sending and receiving letters is not over, it is just a different way of doing it.  My concern for the future is we have entered an era where emails have taken the place of paper and pen, which puts us in a situation that Hillary Clinton is facing today.  Experts are able to retrieve emails she thought she had destroyed, so hopefully it will prove that we will still be able to have access to important facts and documents in the future of technology, even when cover ups are attempted in deleting and destroying emails.  Articles I have read about the facts of the Lusitania and cover ups to avoid accountability and blame may never be retrieved because the notes on paper were destroyed, and unlike emails it is impossible to retrieve paper.  So, just maybe no longer depending on paper and pen, will be a good thing for authors and historians, along with government agencies of National Security.  Although, we face the risks of hacking into our classified documents by other nations, which like Room 40, is something that every nation has set up for this purpose.

Reading Wilson's sappy love letter, while war was going on turned my stomach. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Love stories during the most difficult extremes of war...

Few events in human history were as evil and as powerful as the Nazi holocaust, but hiding among the horror it is heartening to know that one of the best things of which we are capable—love—can survive and flourish even under the worst circumstances.

The story of Manya and Meyer Korenblit has been described by their son as one of miracles. They were two Jewish teenagers in love when Nazis began rounding up people in their Polish town of Hrubieszow. At first, they were placed in ghettos, but they were later carted away to a concentration camp. By the end of the war, 98 percent of the town’s Jewish population had been killed by the Nazis.

The lovers went to the same camp, Budzyn. Meyer would sneak to the fence between the men’s and women’s sections to talk to Manya, and it was there they made a promise. Once everything ended, if they both survived, they would return to their hometown to wait for each other. They were separated shortly afterward and spent the next three years in 11 different camps.

When they were liberated, they weighed 64 kilograms (143 lb) combined. That’s less than the average weight of a single European adult today. Meyer had escaped a death march from Dachau concentration camp and hidden on a farm before Americans found him. Manya was the first to make it back to Hrubieszow. She had to wait six weeks, not knowing Meyer’s fate—but he made it home to her.

David Szumiraj went to Auschwitz in late 1942. During his time there, he tended potato fields, where he worked near a young woman named Perla. The two weren’t allowed to speak, but when guards weren’t looking they made eye contact.

The shared glances were enough for the two to develop feelings for each other. Once they were able to talk for the first time, David says, “It was already inside us, the idea that we were a couple, that we were going to get married.” Their first conversation ended with their first kiss.

In January 1945, with Soviet forces approaching, the Nazis began moving prisoners. The evacuation of Auschwitz was one of the most notorious death marches in history, killing 15,000 people. After a week of passengers eating nothing but snow, David’s train was attacked by British planes. Weighing just 38 kilograms (83 lb), he survived by eating grass until American soldiers picked him up. Today, he still won’t eat lettuce.

David had no idea where Perla was. He sent a friend to a camp in Hamburg that housed lots of women—and she was there. The first David knew of his friend’s success was when Perla jumped out from behind a tree at the army base where David was staying.

They married, had a daughter, and decided to move to Argentina to be with some of David’s surviving family. They couldn’t afford the $20,000 immigration fees, so they had themselves smuggled into the country from Paraguay instead—and remained happily married for the next six decades.

Love was forbidden among the Jews in Nazi concentration camps. However, Joseph Bau and Rebecca Tennenbaum were not people who gave in to the Nazis. Before he was imprisoned, Joseph had used his skill as an artist to create fake documents that saved hundreds of lives. On February 13, 1944, the couple married in the women’s barracks of the Plaszow forced-labor camp. If they’d been caught, everyone present would have been killed.

The couple had crafted their wedding rings from a spoon. Joseph was later freed from the camp by Oskar Schindler, and their wedding was featured in the film Schindler’s List. That list originally contained Rebecca’s name, but she switched Joseph’s in instead, sending herself to Auschwitz and almost certain death. Amazingly, she survived, and the couple reunited after the war.

Today, their wedding is still celebrated as a symbol of hope. Following festivities for what would have been their 70th anniversary in 2014, the couple’s daughter Cilia said, “According to Jewish tradition, in times of deep desperation, a wedding ceremony would be held in the cemetery, symbolically linking the living and the dead.” The Plaszow camp had been built on a cemetery.

[ginny]

Thank you Pat, for that explanation of how a 44 mph torpedo could fail to catch a ship moving at 25 mph (22 knots) from a slower one. It makes perfect sense now.

Thank you BellaMarie for that explanation of when Schweiger knew it was the Lusitania, when Lanz recognized it, after it was hit. ("Treff" chapter).

9."My God, its the Lusitania!" said the pilot of the submarine.  Do you believe Captain Schwieger knew it was the luxury liner before he gave the order to fire the torpedo?

I read the notes in the back on Schweiger and it appears that the quote about how he could not believe the outcome, how awful it was, which I quoted above, is "unlike" him but it's in the log.   So Lanz recognized the Lusitania immediately but apparently Schweiger didn't know before he shot the torpedo, that makes sense, given his remarks in the log when he saw the devastation.

  Larson says it would have been hard to miss with the 4 funnels.  But for some reason his reaction when he saw the result sort of rings true with me and I would like to hope it was true. I also understand that Schweiger also torpedoed a hospital ship, apparently back then they did not have the best means of identifying ships before they shot.

This book is haunting me, I've kept reading and am almost through . It wakes me up in the middle of the night.

I have to say there must be some lesson I can take from this, personally, that maybe we all can. I see some what I think are lessons in the last segment, so will wait till then to talk about them.

I have to reject the notion, however, of blame,  out of hand. Blame for the captain, blame for the passengers, blame for the Germans, blame for the  Admiralty, blame blame blame. So easy with hindsight. Such a complicated subject.  I don't think these people were any different than we are, the reactions of those on the sinking ship were just played out in so many eerie similarities  on the Costa Concordia, I hope to talk about the similarities when we get there.


What it's clear there WAS,  is misunderstanding. So much misunderstanding, miscommunication, is it any different today?  There has to be something we can learn from this. It wasn't different after the crash  at Giglio not so long ago.  Except for the captains. That last section is REALLY poignant.

For myself, as far as blame for the passengers, I guess I'm doomed by posterity because I hope I can  continue to take 10-12 flights per year,  so long as I am physically  able, whether or not some nutso freak  terrorist decides that day he wants  to kill everybody  in his path.  All travel, as we have seen in the news, is a risk:  going to the mall, going to the movie theater, going out in a vehicle, going into a high rise building... Life itself is a risk. How many many times did I take my own children to the top of the World Trade Center. How many times.  What a wonderful thing the new 1 World Trade Center is (formerly called the Freedom Tower) and how proud it should make us all of the unconquerable spirit, teamwork, and grit that built it.

Nope, not staying home in fear.

[BarbStAubrey]

Good on you Ginny - as the venacular is said

[JoanK]

I agree, GINNY. As one living in Southern California (along with millions of others) with the constant threat of a major earthquake.

[JoanK]

The Holocaust love stories brought tears to my eyes.

[BarbStAubrey]

Good heavens - this is on one of the alternate channels our local PBS offers (we have 4) - Who knew - one more bit that helps to understand Germany during and before WWI

QUEEN VICTORIA AND THE CRIPPLED KAISER is the tale of a terrified little boy with a secret disability, and a story that reveals how a poisoned family relationship helped shape the future of a continent. This carefully crafted documentary which features a long hidden cache of Royal letters was produced for Channel 4 in the U.K. for the Secret History series, which showcases the best in historical journalism.

When Queen Victoria's eldest child, Vicky, married the German Crown Prince Frederick William in 1858, it was not just a marriage of love but an attempt to strengthen ties between two of Europe's greatest powers. But the plan went disastrously wrong. One year after her wedding, Vicky endured a difficult birth which almost ended her life and left her baby - the future Kaiser Wilhelm II - with a permanently paralyzed arm. His mother wrote she was haunted by the idea of him "remaining a cripple" and insisted that he hide his paralyzed arm throughout his life. QUEEN VICTORIA AND THE CRIPPLED KAISER, narrated by Jim Carter (Downton Abbey's Mr. Carson), is the story of Wilhelm II, revealing a secret story of child cruelty, shame and dark, incestuous desires, which begins behind palace doors and ends in the carnage of World War I.

During Wilhelm's life, Vicky presided over a series of bizarre and often cruel attempts to cure him of his disability, one which was considered shameful at the time. Rather than being curative, these forced procedures created a highly dysfunctional relationship between mother and son. Wilhelm developed a growing hatred for his mother's country, while, at the same time, expressing his desire for "forbidden love" with her. According to experts who have uncovered new evidence of an incestuous obsession, this unnatural love for his royal mother was at the heart of Kaiser Wilhelm II's hatred of Britain in the years before the First World War.

[bellamarie]

Ginny,

I read the notes in the back on Schweiger and it appears that the quote about how he could not believe the outcome, how awful it was, which I quoted above, is "unlike" him but it's in the log.   So Lanz recognized the Lusitania immediately but apparently Schweiger didn't know before he shot the torpedo, that makes sense, given his remarks in the log when he saw the devastation.

I just can't agree with this.  I believe Schweiger knew which ship it was.  As I posted from the book earlier:

This one was easy.  An instant after looking through the eyespice, Lanz said, "My God, it's the Lusitania."

Schwieger's log indicates that he only now learned the ship's true identity, but this seems implausible.  The ship's profile__its size, its lines, its four funnels__made it one of the most distinctive vessels afloat. 

Does it really matter if Schwieger knew before launching, or not?  Do you think the outcome would have been any different?  Would he have spared the Lusitania if he had known?  Are we to believe he did not recognize the ship even though it was one of the most distinctive vessels afloat?   Schwieger was on a mission to torpedo British ships, he did not hesitate to do so whether they were passenger ships or not.  I think his log was to CYA (cover your a$$).  I do believe he was shocked to look through and realize the devastation, but then he had no way of knowing that ship was loaded with ammunition that would cause a much bigger explosion, than his one torpedo would.

I'm with you Ginny, I plan to continue to fly and travel at will, although I will not be going into known war zones or waters for certain.

[ginny]

The Schweiger thihng is interesting.  Apparently it's been a controversy since 1915. I spent WAY too much time last night reading sites about it, about the log, about military men and historians discussing it. One site printed the actual log. All sites noted his log that entry for that day unlike the others had not been signed by him. One site mentioned that the very minute he stepped off his sub the German govt. confiscated his log and it was felt "they" had substituted one.  How on earth they could do that in the middle of a log  is beyond me.

The actual log entry differed a bit from the one in the book about how he felt when he saw it.

Does it really matter if Schwieger knew before launching, or not?  Do you think the outcome would have been any different?  Would he have spared the Lusitania if he had known?

It would to me in my own judgment? But my own judgment is not on trial here. I don't know if the outcome would have been any different or if he would have spared the Lusitania, I don't know.  Neither does anybody else.

There seemed to be a lot of shock all around that the Lusitania sank so fast. Also it's being said on these websites  (and in our book, and by Schweiger himself ) that the munitions did not cause the second explosion. So there were munitions on a passenger ship and that makes Churchill's remarks about "merchant ships"  particularly bad IF he knew that this "merchant ship" held British war munitions.

I mean, that looks terrible.

I really wasn't interested in President Wilson's personal ruminations.

[JoanP]

Weren't you impressed how  decisions were left to the individual sub captains, which ships would be torpedoed, which would be skipped over?  It seems Captain Schwieger was more interested in the tonnage of the ships sunk - rather than what the ships were carrying.  Was the Lusitania actually carrying munitions?  I can't remember that.

The Germans in the NY harbor were celebrating when they heard of the Lusitania loss.  Were they crazy, JoanK?  DIdn't they know this would bring the US into the war?  Did they believe their naval capabilities were superior - and would welcome US intervention.

I don't think Captain Schwieger knew he was taking down a luxury liner full  of passengers - didn't we see his remorse afterwards, when he realized that it was impossible to go back to aid the survivors?  Wasn't he known for assisting survivors of other ships he had taken down?  I thought I remembered him as being a sympathetic captain before  before this event.  He was not the same man after that - he never  celebrated his "feat" we are told.

Ella - thank you for the photos of the Bletchley Park codebreakers - at first I was taken aback at calling them "war heroes."  But a quick second thought - I realized they were not responsible for how the information they provided was used - Of course they were war heroes.  Do we hold anyone responsible for the fate of the Lusitania once the codebreakers provided information on submarine activity in those waters?  Maybe Churchill - though he was away in Paris at the time.  Was there no communication?

[bellamarie]

Ginny,

One site mentioned that the very minute he stepped off his sub the German govt. confiscated his log and it was felt "they" had substituted one.

This would not surprise me in the least.  I have visited a few sites as well, and a common thread is a cover was evident.

JoanP.,

Was the Lusitania actually carrying munitions?

Yes, the book does state there were, and that the owner of the ship Cunard and Captain Turner knew this. I have researched many sites and found pretty much the same thing as this site:
 
http://www.centenarynews.com/article?id=1616

[bellamarie]

I stumbled onto this site and found the actual manifest of the Lusitania.

http://www.lusitania.net/index_htm_files/Lusitania.net%20Online%20Complete%20Manifest.pdf 


In our book the chapter Manifest states:

More problematic, but entirely legal under U.S. neutrality laws, were the 50 barrels and 94 cases of aluminum powder and 50 cases of bronze powder, both highly flammable under certain conditions, as well as 1,250 cases of shrapnel laden artillery shells made by the Bethlehem Steel Company, bound for British army, and badly needed on the western front, where British forces were hampered by a severe shortage of artillery ammunition.  Also, aboard, according to the manifest, were 4,200 cases of Remington rifle ammunition, amounting to 170 tons.

Here is a site about the Lusitania it boasts, No1 for information on the RMS Lusitania and her last Master Captain W.T.Turner
http://www.lusitania.net/

This is the book the authors of this site has written:

[bellamarie]

According to this article Schwieger got confirmation from Lanz it was one of the Cunard sister ships before firing. So he knew it was a passenger liner. 

http://www.lusitania.net/hunters.htm

When Schwieger planned his opportunist attack on the passing Lusitania, it was, of necessity, a case of rapid response planning. He hadn’t time to thoroughly study her movements, as he would perhaps have wanted to.Once U20’s pilot, Lanz, had positively identified the target as being one of the two Cunard sisters, Schwieger knew that his target was capable of at least 26 knots, that was no secret, but his experienced eye told him that she was not moving as fast as that.

The first stage of the attack planning involved the systematic assimilation of the information gleaned about the intended target (in this case, by Schwieger) at the attack periscope. This system was called UZO (U-Boot Ziel Optik or U-boat targeting, optics). As Schwieger peered into the precision optics of his attack periscope, he had to estimate the target's speed then work out her heading, distance, and bearing to the U-boat's bow. He estimated her speed as being 22 knots, which was an educated guess on his part. Target speed was usually down to an inspired estimate, but again, data such as that gleaned by positive target identification could help enormously. Then he saw her change course, noting in the boat’s War Diary that “the ship turns to starboard and takes a course to Queenstown.”  By following his coded wireless instructions from Vice-Admiral Coke, to divert Lusitania into Queenstown, Captain Turner was now unknowingly and unwittingly shortening the range between his ship and the lurking U20.

To be sure his torpedo found its mark on such a fast target, Schwieger planned to hit the ship in a fairly centralised location, anywhere between her first and fourth funnels and preferably around the second funnel area. Various instruments aboard the U-Boat were used to assist in this. There was a range finding device in the attack periscope itself, called a Stadimeter, which was basically a split-prism range-finder. Using a double-image of the target ship, it gave a pretty accurate range calculation up to a maximum range of 6,000 meters. (Though at the 6, meter extremity of its range, the stadimeter’s accuracy was subject to a 10% error factor). If certain other geometric information such as a known masthead height or funnel height for the target could also be factored in, even more accuracy could be obtained.

Fortunately for Schwieger, Lusitania’s specifications were well known, thanks to the wealth of material that had been published about her since her completion, particularly publications such as The Shipbuilder. (For example, Lusitania’s masthead was 165 feet above her waterline). Contrary to popular belief, there was no cross-wire type of target sight in a U Boat’s periscope.

On the outside of the periscope’s control column was a Target Bearing Ring, which was usually read by an officer standing next to whoever was using the periscope in the close confines of the base of the U-boat’s tower. The Target Bearing Ring gave the compass bearing, measured in degrees, of the intended target in relation to the U-Boat’s bow. 

All the UZO data was then manually processed using a slide rule and pre-determined tables to quickly calculate a firing solution.  The torpedoes travelled at different speeds, depths, and bearing to bow - all these factors were manually programmed into the torpedo itself. When the torpedo was ready for firing, a light showed up for the loaded tube containing the now fully primed torpedo. The final firing solution as predicted by Schwieger’s calculations is as follows:

Target’s speed estimated at 22 knots. Shot distance; 700 metres. G6 Torpedo, optimal speed; 35 knots = 18.01 m/s (meters per second.) Torpedo running depth; 3 meters. Time to Target after firing= 700 meters @ 18.01 m/s = 38,9 seconds. Angle of intersection; near 90 degrees. 

Having run submerged at high speed, following the calculated firing plan, U20 arrived at the plan’s pre-disposed firing point. With the boat’s speed then reduced, U20 was turned to port, into its firing position and the designated torpedo was fired. Schwieger then relied on a stopwatch and further periscope observations to check the accuracy of his attack calculations.Ninety-seven years later,  with the same data fed into the simulator, Ralf’s computer simulation projected that the impact point would have been between  Lusitania’s second and third funnels, (around Frames 161-164) therefore amidships and pretty much where Schwieger was aiming  to hit her.   

However, as Schwieger observed his torpedo hit the Lusitania through his periscope, the first thing he noticed was that the hit was  much further forward of where he planned. He immediately realised that he’d over-estimated the speed of the Lusitania. (The ship  was in fact making just 18 knots at the time, not his estimated 22).Then he saw and noted the almost immediate second, larger  explosion. He was at a loss to explain this, putting it down in his War Diary to possibly “Boilers, coal or powder?”  Schwieger was  not to know that by a combination of chance and mis-calculation, his shot had in fact hit the ship in the one place that would render  fatal damage to her: the forward cargo hold. This is where the computer simulator Ralf used now truly comes into its own.   

Target’s speed difference (estimated speed 22 knots - actual speed 18 knots=4 knot difference. 4 knots=2.06 meters per second.  Hit shift = 2.06 mps for 38.9 seconds = 80.1 meters = 262.5 feet FORWARD of the original projected impact point

The control system of the G6 torpedo should have had a maximum rate of 1% possible deviation at a range of 700 metres.  Maximum possible deviation was thus 7 meters (23 feet). Allowing for this possible deviation in the calculation gives us a range of  the hit being the original 262.5 feet forward of the first simulated impact point +/- another possible 23 feet either way. Allowing for  this possible deviation gives a final range of the hit being between 239.5 to 285.5 feet further forward of the original computer  projected impact point. Those measurements, (allowing for the full scope of the possible 1% torpedo deviation) when transferred to  the ship’s deck plans, put the impact range anywhere between Frame 247 and possibly as far forward as, Frame 269. The mid-point  of this total range is between Frames 257 and 259. These frames are all located within the Lusitania’s cargo hold. Given that all  relevant witness statements put the torpedo’s impact behind the foremast, and that there were no survivors from Baggage Room,  (which was i immediately above the projected impact area) the range is effectively narrowed to being anywhere from Frame 247  forward to Frame 257, three meters below the waterline.   

This computer simulation has thus confirmed the likelihood of the correctness of our original findings: that Schweiger’s torpedo did  indeed hit the ship in the aft end of her forward cargo hold, in the vicinity of her foremast (we originally said between frames 251  and 256) and certainly three meters below her waterline. It was also where 5,000 live artillery shells were stacked, in simple  unprotected wooden crates.

Another interesting bit of information from this site:

Fact or Myth....The Germans knew what she was carrying and they deliberately planned to sink her.

They did indeed know about the American made munitions that were regularly being shipped across the Atlantic on British, French and Dutch ships. In fact, on June 3rd 1915, The New York Times ran a front page story reporting a visit by the German Ambassador, Count Bernstorff, to President Wilson. On page two, there is a bye-line; SHELLS ON THE LUSITANIA. Bernsdorff laid a copy of the ship's manifest in front of Wilson and then quoted direct from a copy of Bethlehem Steel's shipping note, that "the consignment of 1,250 cases of shrapnel was in fact 5,000 shrapnel shells, filled; and that the total weight of this consignment was 103, 828 lbs". Bernstorff left memo of these and other figures with Wilson as proof and called Wilson's attention to the "deliberately incorrect marking" of this consignment as "Non-Explosive Shrapnel", when it was known (and proven) to have been filled shrapnel shells. Count Bernstorff seems to have been remarkably accurately informed, but the specific sinking of the Lusitania by U20 was not pre-planned. It was quite clearly a chance encounter.

[Ella Gibbons]

Communication!

In reading all your posts I couldn't help but notice the questions and concerns about communication!

"What it's clear there WAS,  is misunderstanding. So much misunderstanding, miscommunication, is it any different today?  There has to be something we can learn from this." -Ginny

And BELLE remarks that   -"just maybe no longer depending on paper and pen, will be a good thing for authors and historians, along with government agencies of National Security". And yet, even with today's instant communication, Benghazi happened.  There is no guarantee.

JOANP  asks " Do we hold anyone responsible for the fate of the Lusitania once the codebreakers provided information on submarine activity in those waters?  Maybe Churchill - though he was away in Paris at the time.  Was there no communication?"

So many good thoughts!   Thank you all!  What a lot of think about in this chapter. 

And BARBARA, I have long wanted to read a book about Victoria and her children and grandchildren.  In those days when royalty had to marry royalty, many questions come to mind and all of Victoria's children were so involved in wars.  That tragic situation in Russia!   I didn't know about the Kaiser, that was interesting.

I want also to read a book about President Wilson, unlike Ginny, I am fascinated by the man.

[Ella Gibbons]

Quoting President Truman:  THE BUCK STOPS HERE

What can we take away from this tragedy?  Captain Turner, a seasoned, experienced, captain, yet some of his  actions are to be questioned don't you think? 

Am off to read more....................

[Ella Gibbons]

You may be interested in looking at photos of ships and subs in WWI, many from the National Archives and Library of Congress:

http://www.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/wwi/wwisea/

[bellamarie]

Ella, Thank you for the link, those pictures are amazing to see. 

I too share the interest in reading a book about Victoria and her children and grandchildren.  I have always been attracted to Royalty, their families and lifestyles.  I have a collection of Princess Diana books, and a beautiful collection of Ashton Drake dolls of her in four of her renown gowns.

I am getting a bit antsy wanting to read ahead, like Ginny this book is captivating me.

[JoanP]

Dead Wake - "a trail of a fading disturbance in the water"- PATH@

An apt title for this book, don't you think?

"The ship was still moving, but slowly, with a wake full of wreckage and corpses spreading behind it..."

As gruesome a death, let's pray it was sudden, can you begin to imagine what it was like to be one of the survivors, drifting in the silent wake of the dead? I can't believe they were ever the same afterwards, living with such memories.

And one of the survivors...the captain!
Ella asks -" Captain Turner, a seasoned, experienced, captain, yet some of his  actions are to be questioned don't you think?"

I do think he had much to answer for...as one responsible for the safety of so many passengers, though he didn't believe the Lusitania would be attacked.  Numerous precautions were overlooked in the event the ship encountered danger at sea.  Insufficient life jackets, no practice putting them on properly, no crew practice getting the lifeboats into the water, insufficient lifeboats...
Was it the captain's responsibility to see that the passengers' portholes were closed?  Open portholes were one reason the ship sank so fast as it took on so much water so quickly.

I think every survivor - especially the captain, had plenty to remember and live with in the years afterwards.

[PatH]

One thing that complicates assigning blame here is that this was a time of rapidly changing expectations.  The Titanic didn’t have anything like enough lifeboats for all the passengers.  This was now required by law, and Lusitania  had enough.  They also had more than enough lifejackets, but they were stupidly placed, and passengers weren’t shown the complicated method of putting them on correctly.  The war situation was changing rapidly too, becoming more dangerous at a steep rate.

People were still getting used to how to handle the new situations, and what was reasonable last month might not be this month.

[Jonathan]

Engrossing! Thanks to all of you for your thoughts and your questions. 'Queen Victoria and the Crippled Kaiser' sounds interesting. 'The Lusitania Story: The Atrocity That Shocked the world' is a mine of information. And your gallery of photographs, Ella, couldn't be more dramatic. Photo 21 is a good picture of U-20 and photo 24 has an interesting caption:

'The U-35 participated in the entire war, becoming the most successful U-boat in WWI, sinking 224 ships, killing thousands.'

Did the captain identify every vessel before firing a torpedo? I had no idea so much research is still going on a hundred years after the event.

Baseball and politics have kept me so busy the last few months I haven't had the time to read as much as I would like. My Blue Jays, despite the stiff competition, are unsinkable and hope to make it to the World Series. The politicking has ended with the election of a new government, so that will free up more time. It's interesting to read that Woodrow Wilson had a preference for the British parliamentary system. The war distracted him. Except for that he might have reformed the U.S. government, as he did with Princeton, U when he was its president. All in all he was a somewhat tragic figure.

[Jonathan]

Just read your post, Pat. We should keep in mind, too, that things happened too quickly, to make the most of the life-saving resources. With the ship listing at 45 degrees - how can one launch a lifeboat? Too many drills on the way across would only have increased the worry among the passengers.

'Here it was, this thing everyone had feared. "We had all been thinking, dreaming, eating, sleeping 'submarine' from the hour we left New York" '. p242

[Ella Gibbons]

PATH" "that this was a time of rapidly changing expectations  Is this an adequate explanation of why those passengers signed to sail on the Lusitania?   Did they know they were taking a terrible risk?   Did they know the way the war was going, that the Germans had declared ports "war zones."

It's very difficult to understand, today with all our sources of information, that those boarding did not understand the risk involved.   I must go back to the early chapters and try to find some reasons for boarding.

As a couple of you posted, I would not board after reading the news.

Thanks, JOANP, for your excellent post as to the reasons why Captain may be responsible.  I'll repeat:

Insufficient life jackets, no practice putting them on properly, no crew practice getting the lifeboats into the water, insufficient lifeboats...  Was it the captain's responsibility to see that the passengers' portholes were closed? "   All good reasons for the loss of life.  Will he be held responsible afterwards?   Perhaps we'll find out in the next section.

Oh, wait, I think there were sufficient lifeboats??

Gosh, I must look up about the portholes and who had responsibility.  The order might have been given by the captain but in time for those open portholes to be closed?    Anybody?

[bellamarie]

Without going back over the pages, I do think the portholes were all ordered to be closed, but once they got message they had passed over the submarine they began opening the portholes once again.

You would think like stewardesses on airplanes give a complete demonstration on the face masks, and procedure of emergencies and pointing out exits etc., at least the Lusitania would do the same, especially knowing they could be entering dangerous waters.  A lifejacket is only efficient if put on properly.  I just don't understand why there would not be daily drills on making sure the lifeboats ropes worked properly.  Things sure did change quickly, one moment passengers are eating lunch and lounging on the deck, to using their survival skills to save for your life.

Jonathan, Baseball & politics, you can't get more American than that, even though you are Canadian.  I saw where Justin Trudeau is you new Prime Minister.  My hubby and I visited Toronto years ago, and did a Honeymoon tour of the Niagara Falls, horticulture, dam, etc., and ate at a very nice French restaurant.  One of my favorite vacations ever.

[Ella Gibbons]

BELLE:  Jonathan's post just gave an excellent reason why there were no drills.

"Too many drills on the way across would only have increased the worry among the passengers.

[bellamarie]

I understand too many drills would worry the passengers, but an initial demonstration on properly putting on the lifejackets, and going over emergency procedures seems only logical and safe. It seems to me the passengers were constantly worried of submarines by this statement Jonathan pointed out:

"We had all been thinking, dreaming, eating, sleeping 'submarine' from the hour we left New York" '. p242

"Hindsight is always twenty-twenty." Billy Wilder

[Ella Gibbons]

How long did it take Larson to write this book, to do all the research?  Somewhere he talks about this; I remember he said it was fun to do the physical stuff, like sailing on the Queen Mary and visiting Hamburg, Germany.  Oh, to be younger and able to write such a fascinating tale!

Theodate Pope and her psychical society was interesting wasn't it?   To think that an educated woman would believe?   Do you know anyone who does?   Ever had your fortune told?

I looked up a site for the society and found the following:

http://www.spr.ac.uk/page/history-society-psychical-research-parapsychology:

Found this paragraph, the man was not exactly a foolish man!

"The first President of the SPR was Henry Sidgwick, Professor of Moral Philosophy at Cambridge University, who had enormous standing and moral authority in the intellectual circles of the day. Apart from a prodigious amount of work, he contributed “the weight which his known intelligence and integrity gave to the serious study of the subject” (quoted from Broad’s obituary after Haynes, p. 176). His chief associates in the early stages were Frederic Myers, a classical scholar but also a man of lively and wide-ranging interests, and the brilliant Edmund Gurney, the main author of what is now the classic of psychical research, Phantasms of the Living.

Larson had a very good source or sources for his material on Theodate Pope.  I think the main one used was Smith, Sharon, Theodate Pope Riddle, Her Life and Architecture.  Was that a book?

[ginny]

Addressing the topics in the heading:

1."I saw them trying to throw out the [life]boats[as the Lusitania approached land]....and it seemed to me they not equal to it. They were clumsy..."pg. 192  Remembering the Titanic disaster, should something have been done at this point?

I think we, particularly living in the blessed country we do live in, sort of have a series of myths about some things. The Titanic disaster, and what we think should happen based on movies and stories of the past. The orderly procession to the boats, the orderly women and children first. Things will be orderly if ONLY we prepare.

 Watch the video on the Costa Concordia sinking, the documentary featuring the former Captain of the QEII and footage from the passengers. A lot of time has passed between them but nothing has really changed when it happens. Reality and some kind of orderly chivalry do not always  coincide. 

People are people. There are always heroes and there are always people of the opposite ilk. I'm still thinking about the babies. Mothers thrusting their babies into the arms of men.  Because they think the man will be able to save them. Haunting thing in the Concordia sinking, one young man who was given three babies...and who ended up swimming to the shore with another crew member. Without babies. Where are they? Same thing on the Lusitania, not three but one.

Life jackets put on upside down or something. Who of us in a panic would know how to put on a life jacket the right way? Who of us knows what to do if the boat suddenly leans out? Oh yes, there's the obligatory muster: one muster on the boat station,  here it is, put it on, gaiety, the day of sailing, quite a few people already stewed to the winds,  compared with panic and screaming....I don't know what can be done, but what has been done doesn't appear to have made a lot of difference in the ensuing years.  Except the death toll on the Concordia was much less.  Due, I would say,  in great part to the passengers own  initiatives.  And it really is those initiatives which seem doable that I think should be the new myths. But you can't ever predict the situation.

[JoanP]

"Oh, wait, I think there were sufficient lifeboats?"  Ella

I went back to the beginning, reread the sailing preparations before the ship left NY harbor.  Really want to be fair to Captain Turner.  I thought there were  more passengers from the Cameronia  transferred to the Lusitania two hours before sailing.  In rereading, I see there were only 45 more passengers added at the last minute.  There probably were enough lifeboats for all.  It was really fascinating reading the early pages again. 

Captain Turner was known as an experienced, seasoned and competent sailor.
 "On Saturday morning, Turner would make a detailed inspection of the ship, the needs of passengers paramount."  Cunard's manual  Cunard's foremost priority - to protect the passengers.  The ship carried the latest in safety equipment after the Titanic disaster.  The Lusitania had more than enough lifeboats.

48 boats in all - two varieties.  There were 26 collapsables capable of carrying 45-54 people each.  The canvas sides had to be raised and snapped into place to make them seaworththy.  The design was found to be flawed - passenger might end up in the water unless sides were raised." p18

It's not clear whether Captain Turner was aware of this flaw.  He ordered a lifeboat drill =     Mention was made of the short-numbered, inexperienced, incompetent crew -  Fear of Uboats kept others away.  Only the conventional lifeboats were part of the drill.-not the collapsibles.  Clearly the crew was not familiar with raising their sides before passengers could enter. 
What was Captain Turner's responsibility here?  He had ordered a drill.

Another thing...The danger of  open portholes in  rough weather was known.  The Cunard board had voted to reprimand stewards responsible for ignoring  this order in a previous incident.  Captain Turner had ordered all portholes closed.  Was he responsible then for the open portholes which caused the Lusitania to take on so much water so quickly?  Or were stewards responsible for not keeping the closed?
Would closed portholes have bought time, slowed the sinking of the ship...allowed for the orderly procession to the life boats, and saved more lives?

Hindsight...

[Jonathan]

I find it miraculous that 764 of the Lusitania's 1959 passengers and crew survived. Eighteen minutes after being hit, the ship was gone. Can anyone imagine the confusion and distress. Sure there had been lifeboat drills with crew members, but now they were in the baggage hold preparing for disembarkation. That was in the bow of the ship where the torpedo had struck. What working system of communication could the poor captain have had?

Captain Turner did the best he could, staying on the bridge to the last moment. He had the courage to take the job after the Lusitania had a submarine encounter a month or two earlier and the captain then, David Dow, had left. It was very controversial. The Lusitania had been flying an American flag once it had entered the war zone.

Such a chaotic scene within minutes. And yet it had been such a lovely scene. Half a dozen pages, BEAUTY (239-244) describe the moments before the hit:

For the passengers on deck, 'The time passed happily, and then it was 2:09 P.M. The sun shone, the sea glittered.'

'The ship sliced through the calm like a razor through gelatin.'

'Theodate Pope stood leaning on the rail and admiring the sea, "which was a marvellous blue and very dazzling in the sunlight" '

Even the torpedo was marvellous to see and brought on curious reactions. That 'streak of froth' began arcing across the surface, toward the ship.

'That isn't a torpedo, is it?' 'I was too spellbound to answer, I felt absolutely sick.'

Another passenger reported later: I saw the torpedo coming! A white and greenish streak in the water! I stood transfixed!'

Any other man would have found this scene terrifying. Brooks was entranced. He saw the body of the torpedo moving well ahead of the wake, through the water he described as being " a beautiful green." The torpedo :was covered with a silvery phosphorescence, you might term it, which was caused by  the air escaping from the motors." He said, "It was a beautiful sight." '

To end this evocative little chapter, David Dow is brought back into the story. Two months later, now in command of the Mauretania, he spotted a periscope a mile away. With two torpedoes racing toward his ship, he 'ordered an immediate full turn to starboard, toward the submarine. Both torpedoes missed; the submarine submerged and fled.'

[Jonathan]

The ballgame starts in five minutes. What a hit my team took yesterday. They lost 14-2. But there they are, back on the field.

[ANNIE]

Article about Germany-United States relations over the years starting with the founding of Germantown near Philidelphia in 1683:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany–United_States_relations#1683.E2.80.931848

 "The name of  Frederick Von Stueben a former Prussian General Staff officer, comes to mind, a hero of the American Revolution who became George Washington's chief of staff, author of the Continental Army's basic drill manual.  Von Steuben is a name even today still memorialized as hero of our fight against the British." Burton Yale Pines-"America's Greatest Blunder".

"Right after the colonies' victory over England, Prussia was quick to demonstrate its warm feelings, signing important treaties of trade and friendship with the newly independent United States.  Later, in American's Civil War,  Prussia, unlike Britain and France, refused to remain neutral and immediately backed the Union.  (By contrast, French Emperor Napoleon III backed the Confederacy.)
 Germans flocked to the U.S. Legation in Berlin to volunteer for the Union Army and became, via the Frankfurt Stock Exchange, the heaviest foreign buyers of  Union bonds.  In the U.S, nearly 200,000 native-born Germans signed up with the Union Army while two Union divisions were comprised entirely of Germans."  from "America's Greatest Blunder". My German great grandfather served the Civil War.  He had emigrated to the U.S. in 1856, married in 1858 and bought a farm in Union City, Indiana.  There is a Civil war plaque at his grave.

Article about Germany planning an invasion of the US in 1898:

http://europeanhistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa050902a.htm

This war was surely the beginning of world war becoming a natural happening.  The history of our country's connections to Germany, Venezueala,  Mexico, the Philipines is overwhelming but surely interesting. 

Article about Hemophilia in the Royal families across Europe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haemophilia_in_European_royalty

About Victoria's children marrying across the countries of Europe is incredible.  Her line, Princess Alice and Princess Beatrice, brought hemophilia to Spain, Russia and Germany.  Her son, Prince Leopold, Duke of Albany, suffered from the disease.  The prince of Russia's ruling family had it.  'Twas known as the "Royal Disease" across the continent.

[ANNIE]

Jonathon,
I too am watching the baseball games and my Cubs are losing to the Mets in the in the 3rd game.  I don't know about you, but I am seeing a Kansas City-Mets World Series in the near future. Sigggggggh!

[JoanK]

My Dodgers were knocked out by the Mets, so I stopped watching. I hope this discussion can survive divided baseball loyalties.

[JoanP]

Well, my Washington Nats were knocked off by the Mets before the regular season even ended.  At least you've had something to get excited about in the playoffs!

[JoanK]

We'll move on to the next section Friday, so get your reading caps on. (I admit to reading in the commercial breaks of the ball games, but it's not MY team).

The Section ends at SOURCES AND AKNOWLEDGEMENTS. No reason to read that, although you might want to look at the first few pages, where he describes some of his experiences (including seeing the actual German code book that fell in the hands of Room 40).

This section is tough (my eyes are wet after reading it), but most of the passengers we met earlier survived. And we'll see if Captain Turner was blamed, and if so, for what. There are a few surprises (for me anyway, knowing little of this history).

[Ella Gibbons]

Mackworth said - "I always thought a shipwreck was a well-organized affair."  "So did I" Conner replied, but I've learned a devil of a lot in the last five minutes."

What would you be doing in this situation, the ship listing to one side, noise and chaos everywhere?

Try for a lifeboat?   Run back to your cabin for a life jacket?  Look for your children? 

Would you jump in the water?  Can you swim?

Speaking personally, I would be paralyzed with fear, probably drown with the ship, unable to move.  I hate water, I can't swim, I don't like crowds, chaos, running around - you wouldn't want me for a friend on a boat.

How very sad this all is and I wonder if it helped in any way in the war with submarines?

We'll finish up this section and start reading on to the last page!  Perhaps we will find out answers to the many questions we have asked in this discussion!

SUCH A GOOD DISCUSSION, JOANK AND I THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR INTEREST IN THE BOOK AND FOR MAKING THIS SO INTERESTING. 

[bellamarie]

Ella,  Speaking personally, I would be paralyzed with fear, probably drown with the ship, unable to move.  I hate water, I can't swim, I don't like crowds, chaos, running around - you wouldn't want me for a friend on a boat.

I'm with you, I do not know how to swim and chaos sends me into panic and anxiety. I love water but also have a fear of it.  As a child my aunt dunked me in the lake and it made me never want to learn to swim.  I don't mind pools, but I must have something to hold on to.  I went on a boat ride with my son, granddaughter, her boyfriend, and my hubby this past summer and I was sitting in the back of the speed boat, my son was trying to avoid the waves other jet skis and tubers were making causing the back of the boat to go lower, almost going under the water.  I had put my lifejacket on immediately when I got into the boat, but I can tell you I did not like this feeling.  My granddaughter and her boyfriend were laughing at me because I said it's time to go back.  My son apologized to me and said he was not trying to scare me, he truly was having a hard time handling the waves.  I had a similar incident in the gulf of Mexico with my brother in law driving his speed boat, when we visited Florida.  So I have had some fears about drowning. We went on a casino ship out into the International waters in Florida, and I was not at all fearful, and never once thought about a life jacket so I can relate to once the passengers were on the Lusitania the excitement could overtake any fear.  We were not given any instructions, or told where any lifejackets were when we boarded.  Funny how I just remembered this.  Thank goodness it was not war time.  We boarded in the daylight, so when we were heading back at midnight I remember feeling a bit eerie, not being able to see for miles and miles of only darkness in the water.   Then is when I wanted off that ship.

I'm ready to go on to see what happens to everyone.  I have a busy day tomorrow taking the youngest grandchild to the pumpkin farm for her Preschool field trip.  Will hope to begin reading to the end when I get home. 

I have to marvel at all you baseball fans, I used to like the Cincinnati Reds when Pete Rose was around, but since then no team holds my interest.  Good luck to any of your teams that may make the playoffs. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Wow wow and wow again - this research online to further my explaining what I have already learned just starting the Fritz Fischer's book that arrived this evening Germany's Aims in The First World War

It appears from my online research, Germans are attempting to clean up any damaging bits in their history available online that addresses their attitude and plans to make the Jews a classless, landless, society with no wealth or income AND to annex as satellite nations the smaller European nations that was talked about since the late eighteenth century and written in a long precise plan in a document I had bookmarked for years and even shared at one time here when we were SeniorNet talking about a book that this information was appropriate. That document was called If I Were Kaiser written in its earliest form in 1903 and then published again in a larger newspaper in 1912. 

Although a link is still provided to the document, it is no longer there but has been replaced by a summery of many documents, speeches and treaties related to WWI - the document If I Were Kaiser does not any longer appear anyplace on the Internet.

Here is one site that still shows the papers If I Were Kaiser as a link - scroll about half way down -  http://www.gwpda.org/1914m.html

The document is referred to in many other sites explaining this period of German history in a more white washed fashion blaming the author of this document as a member of the Pan-German party that yes, the Pan-German party was all about annexing most of Europe and a swath of Africa into German control but, they are even hiding the name Pan-German League and suggesting a lot of dialog about political parties, most that I am not familiar with the names and what they represent, so I do not have the same distaste that evidently many in Germany knowingly share - the only damning sentence explaining the document is in a Google synopsis of a book - German Expansionism, Imperial Liberalism and the United States, 1776–1945 By Jens-Uwe Guettel available from Amazon for $90.

Cannot copy and paste so here is the reference typed out from the Introduction of this book -

"Nelson's and Liulevicius' points are confirmed by a fresh look at Heinrich Class's infamous Wenn Ich Der Kaiser wär' [If I were Emperor, 1912], a publication that has at times been viewed as a proto-Nazi Text. Class was the chairman of the Pan-German League when he wrote this book."

Then get this because it is what is being said site after site after site that speaks of If I Were Kaiser that they even changed the name to If I Were Emperor - they are all saying: "Because of this position and because the ideas outlined in the work were extremely radical compared even to those espoused  by other Leaguers, the book was originally published under the pseudonym Daniel Frymann.

There can be no question that many positions outlined by Class and colored by extreme anti-Semitism sound like rough, albeit slightly less callous and murderous drafts for Nazi visions and actual policies." etc etc. softening and excusing the entire article that was originally published in a German newspaper -

This article, If I Were Kaiser went into how the schools were to insist on all and only German [some schools in Bavaria spoke a dialect and those near the Rhine still spoke French] and the newspapers were to be government confiscated and owned - the actual plan and justification for taking each nation - Denmark, Belgian, each Baltic nation and the biggie, their arch nemesis Poland and then, the treatment of the Jews made non-citizens but subject to twice the tax rate the article describes a Ghetto but stopped at describing death camps.

Now get this - the Introduction to Germany's Aims in the First World War - indicates there is no one to blame for starting the war since every nation in Europe added to the start of this conflict. Which reminds me of our book Dead Wake as we see so many having had a part in the sinking of the Lusitania.

It is as if one book is foreshadowing the other - but get this - I did not know - we have Germany to thank for creating Red Russia - part of the tactics to gain control of Europe, which again they wanted to be equal in power to England and Russia - the plan included destabilizing the social and politics of these nations.

Germany encouraged the Arabs to revolt against the Brits and the French and supported the Irish rebellion but what really got me was - It was Germany who flew Lenin from Switzerland to Russia, giving him and the Bolsheviks further help which ended the war on the Eastern Front - however, in the Brest-Litovsk treaty with this new Russia, Germany promised to keep a 100,000 troops on the eastern front that had they been sent to the west as Germany originally planned, Germany would have won WWI.

Also, the book indicates it was the Bankers and Industrial leaders more than  Wilhelm II, who wanted this enlarged Germany that placed Germany as "the" superior race and on an equal footing with England and Russia.