Author Topic: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!  (Read 21404 times)

PatH

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #80 on: May 05, 2018, 11:00:14 AM »
WELCOME
EVERYONE!
Please, join our
Discussion of

Winter Garden
by Kristin Hannah
The story of a Family
 learning and connecting
to its history and
to each other.
Discussion Dates

Prologue 1972 - Chapter 6...April 30-May 3

Chapter 7 - Chapter 13...May 4-May6
Chapter 14 - Chapter 20...May 7-May10
Chapter 21 - Epilogue 2010...May 11-May

Discussion Leader: Barb

PatH

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #81 on: May 05, 2018, 11:05:59 AM »
Yes, Frybabe and Bellamarie, the fairy story turns out to be Anya's story.  The children only got the tip of the iceberg, and we still aren't done.  I'm sure the crucial part is still ahead.

Nice coincidence, Frybabe, that you started that book when you did.  And Tomereader knows a lot about the subject.  Another coincidence: that we just finished A Gentleman in Moscow, which reminds us of the mindset in the Soviet Union during that time.

PTSD: yes, surely that is a factor.  Look at how little things seem to set off flashbacks.

PatH

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #82 on: May 05, 2018, 12:23:03 PM »
Jonathan:
Quote
Text and sub-text have me baffled. And I'm hoping the rest of you will explain it all to me.
Of course we will, Jonathan, assuming we figure it out ourselves. ;)

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #83 on: May 05, 2018, 12:50:28 PM »
Thanks Pat for remembering to leave the first post for the heading - makes it so much better when we can have the heading separate from someone's remarks... the remarks never have the same impact do they, when the are on the bottom of the heading...

Frybabe what are you reading that coincides so well with this story?

And Bellamarie it appears the author has arranged this story so as you say, there is no epiphany till I bet the very last few chapters - Kristin Hannah sure keeps us turning the pages doesn't she.

A haunting thought Tomereader, "that horrible would tend to erase happier time memories." they say it takes 10 good memories to out weight the affect of one bad memory.

So glad we are getting into the fairytale - like so many fairytales there is enchanting moments - frightening moments, glimpses of a love story and always the devotion between some of the characters.

I still have the reminder of the story to read in Chapter 13 the second night of the story telling. Interesting to me was the realization that few children today or for the past maybe 20 years do not have the fairytales as they were years ago - everything that was frightening was made more beguine and the Disney retelling added to this light touch - I do not know of a more modern Disney movie that had the chilling and terrifying moments included in for instance Snow White or even Pinocchio. The fairytales on screen were often tame as compared to some of the stories we read and had been read to us. I think the closest I am remembering and that is not recent either is, the Child Catcher and his black cage in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. Times have changed and I will leave it to others to decide which prepares kids for the reality of evil in the world which I do not think we are ever prepared for even when we trip over it.

The opposite - this morning had a fawn born in the backyard within 6 feet of the backdoor to the laundry room. From the way she is acting I wouldn't be surprised if she has another to deliver and sometimes they birth twins hours and hours later - so we shall see what we shall see but her utter is very full and she has several tits ready - she may be the one who takes on the care of other fawns born within the next 2 weeks because there were defiantly 4 pregnant does in this herd.

I wish I could say all is well and I'm on the mend - but getting a bit scared - mouth is swollen more than yesterday and of course the weekend when you cannot get anyone - hopefully I can get this under control over the weekend and if not we may have to risk a mycin of some kind - my fear is re-activating the Temporal Arteritis which is so painful and deadens more of my head so more hair falls out and it affects that one eye - grrr - the fear of activating it from my inability to tolerate mycins is as worrisome as not getting this infection under control.     

I wonder - did any of you have a room to call your own - sounds like Virginia Woolf - about the only thing I can recall is the kitchen was sorta my domain and the garage and tool room was my husband's - but then none of us were a sitting family - we enjoyed making things or ball games or night walks when it was cooler or tending the gardens - and not being self-employed till I went on my own about 10 or 12 years ago there was no need for an office - cannot say there is a corner of the house that I had an attachment. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #84 on: May 05, 2018, 01:17:27 PM »
Interesting - arrived today the kindle free books for May which included, The Matchmaker and the description included this sentence that seems to fit our story very well... love is hard to recognize, and the ones who push love away often are the ones who need it most.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #85 on: May 05, 2018, 02:51:11 PM »
Barb, your condition really worries me.  I don't think you should wait two days until Monday.  If none of your doctors are available, is there some sort of urgent care facility you can go to?  Or even an emergency room?  Aren't there some non-mycin antibiotics they could try?  I'm sorry to add to your fear, but from here it seems like delay would be bad.

bellamarie

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #86 on: May 05, 2018, 04:20:25 PM »
PatH., you took the words right out of my thoughts, I too think Barb should possibly go to an urgent care or er to have this infection checked out.  Like I said, my hubby had his three extractions yesterday around 9:00 a.m., he didn't have any pain by bedtime, and no swolleness after using an ice pack throughout the day. He also has an infection, and began his antibiotic. Your pain level does worry me, especially with an infection that has not been treated for days.  Better to err on the safe side.   
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Frybabe

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #87 on: May 05, 2018, 07:47:24 PM »
Barb, it is called The Metronome by D. R. Bell. Both are set in modern day with the main characters looking back into the family's past in the same city and in about the same timeline, Stalin's purges and the Siege of Leningrad. The Metronome, however, is a murder/crime mystery.

The Metronome (the signal, not the novel) is mentioned in Winter Garden, briefly, and in the book of the same title more extensively. One of the YouTube videos explained the significance of the Metronome more fully. I assume it was a radio signal which was a place holder when the frequency was not in use. It let people know when the were tuned into the correct frequency and it helped to discourage pirate radio stations from using that frequency. According to the YouTube clip I saw about the Siege of Leningrad, the speed at which the Metronome ticked had significance. Slow speed ticking for normal and a faster speed denoting an air raid attack. Early radio and TV both had their frequency holders when not on air, but the only ones I remember here in the US were all solid tones.

Oops, Bellamarie, you are right. I wasn't paying attention to where I was and am not almost through with the next section. I have the book until the 14th now, but it is, at this point, hard to put down.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #88 on: May 06, 2018, 01:40:26 PM »
I almost hate to pick up the book now - like y'all I cannot stop - Chapter 13 the fairy tale became lost - it quickly felt more like a sharing of an old memory with certain people with various jobs turned into characters that express the feelings and fears they presented. I'm betting most of us have life experiences remembered but not talked about - oh and yes, the gut wrenching that comes with a large loss when you doubt yourself and are no longer sure of who you are - beyond ouch - a deep dark place of futility.

I sure like the mother's urging that education is not dependent on classes at a University - My father was a firm believer that only boys should be educated - ah so, however, I remember the disappointment, even found an inexpensive way that I could have paid for myself - but it was not to be - and so I did not attend collage till my children were 6, 11 and 12 - in the meantime I remember reading and reading and learning about artists, listening to music, attending the symphony, studying piano when my children started their piano lessons, even sat in a couple of evening lectures with a neighbor. As I attempted to broaden my children's learning experiences I was learning myself so that when I finally enrolled in collage, I tested out of so many classes I had the equivalent of 38 hours completed.  And so the mother shared my own belief about education.

Not sure I remember what happened to Sasha - I think he just left and Vera was caught in the world of self-preservation with her mother and sister.  Surprise that even the grandmother worked and that they both smoked.

Reading just this much made me realize how fortunate our lives are more than the harshness of a state controlled society, living in poverty, crammed into a small space with the only real break from the stale air, cold and earning in a system of workers is a brief summer of gardening. Granted the garden was for food supply but it was in the fresh air and you were in control of what you planted as well as, enjoying the harvest dependent on no one but 'mother-nature'.

Finally, the colloidal silver has made a large dent in my infections - no pain and swelling about gone - the problem was the new bottle of colloidal silver was a brand I never used - only after feeling so bad, for some reason I looked at the label and low and behold they were using a protein based colloidal mixture and the protein was floated in casein, which is another one of my allergies (never could drink milk) - no wonder no improvement - I was actually building a secondary infection. Found a bottle of the brand I've used for years and taking a couple of doses yesterday evening and last night and again this morning, along with other herbal combinations I successfully use for infections I am on the mend and I have a large bottle of pure nano size particle colloidal silver arriving tomorrow.   

Bellamarie glad your husband is doing well and can tolerate the antibiotics prescribed. And thanks for your concern Pat - the issue for me is, not being able to tolerate any from the penicillin family, and starting about 12 or so years ago, probably because of multiple and different antibiotics within two months I ended up with the Temporal Arteritis, now I can not tolerate the Cephalosporins, the Quinolones, or the Tetracyclines families leaving me with the Macrolides that includes Erythromycin. And now, that family line is slowly being shelved and Erythromycin is no longer in mass production - it has to be special ordered at a great cost and even the few capsules the pharmacy could get from anther location, that I took the first day, I was already experiencing the severe pain in the veins in my head that is the Temporal Arteritis - there is no cure for the Arteritis and the pain is so severe, almost, if not as bad as the pain of the abscess. 

And so, my daughter-in-law, who for a time worked in her uncle's surgical office chatted then Dr. Widner, who then called me and told me the best was for me to use the colloidal silver - I could not understand why it was not having a positive outcome till I finally looked more closely at the information and there it was.

All I keep thinking is thank goodness I am not experiencing the ill health that many go through at my age because the medicines would have killed me by now. After finding the protein base for the silver I am now wondering if that is maybe at the bottom of many meds I have trouble with - they usually have some sort of filler and now I'm wondering what those fillers are and if that is what I am reacting to rather than the chemical combination. 

OK enough with health - I'm on my way and that is all that matters -

Frybabe ;) been having my own mystery to solve never mind reading one for entertainment - but thanks for sharing the title and author - I think I may download that on my kindle - sounds like a good follow up - the cover looks like it is depicting this Fairy-tale told by Anya - So far this year we sure have been reading Russia Russia Russia... I have a feeling we are going to simply read this story till we have a stopping point that we can then talk and talk about what happened and why and how and fill each other in on what we know that would make the story even richer as we better understand.   

Oh yes, agree PTSD for sure...   
 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #89 on: May 06, 2018, 05:53:30 PM »
It has been a rainy day. I just sat and finished both books. Surprising endings for both of them.

I was surprised to find that Finland had sided with the Germans in the War. I thought they were an occupied country, kind of like Poland. It seems they were looking to get land back that Russia had previously taken from them.

 

bellamarie

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #90 on: May 06, 2018, 11:00:45 PM »
Barb, so glad to hear you have figured out your meds and are on the mend.  You had us worried, especially living alone.

I have to say I wish I would have had the urge for education beyond my high school years, like you.  Both my mother and step father did not complete high school, so there was no mention or motivation for achieving a higher education in my family.  I am the second to the youngest of seven children, and my sister and I were the only ones to stay in school and graduate.  My parents were going through a very nasty divorce at the time of my graduation, so I would not have been able to go to college even if my counselor or parents had prepared me to advance my education beyond high school, which they had not done.  After I got married at the age of eighteen, I found a thirst for reading and wanting more education.  I did not attend college, but I did become interested and purchased, the first affordable computer, Radio Shack's Tandy Coco model, which opened up a whole new world of learning for me, and landed me my job, teaching computers in the Catholic elementary school my children attended.  I, along with my mentor/principal, began the first computer lab in the school.  I attended many diocesan computer and educational workshops throughout the years earning C.E.Us, that earned me a certified teacher aide certification.  This certification, along with my sixteen years experience teaching computers and CCD classes, were my stepping stones into opening my in home day care, allowing me to have the best of both worlds. I got to day care all of my grandchildren free of charge for my kids, yet have my own business, being paid by other families who would be willing to be placed on a waiting list for me to have an opening for their child/children.  I was the ONE everyone wanted, through word of mouth, and connections to my teaching at our school and church, I never lacked for families/children.  And now...... I enjoy the peace and quiet of retirement, listening to the birds wake me up in the morning, instead of an alarm clock.

Where is everyone with their reading?  I completed chapter 13, and it seems so have the rest of you.  We can all agree the fairy tale fell a bit flat, is autobiographical, and what we were suspecting, Anya has been traumatized through her years growing up in Leningrad.  Jonathan and Frybabe have finished the book, and have given a bit of promise the ending will be interesting.  Do we have more to discuss in these chapters, or is everyone who has NOT finished the book ready to go to the next set of chapters?   At this speed we may finish before the end of the month.   
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #91 on: May 07, 2018, 01:34:46 AM »
Yes Bellamarie, let's move along - Pat was asking the same thing -

Will you be OK Frybabe and Jonathan holding off sharing what you know from the last group of chapters till we get through this next set of chapters? Not sure Tomereader where you are in the book with your reading but I think this story is such that the usual format we use to read is just not fitting - so yes, let's move on with Chapter 14 - Chapter 20 and then we will hit the last of it after we have at least some chit chat over the Chapters 14 through 20 -

I have not read ahead but I had canceled my early week appointments on Thursday when I was not doing very well so I can read tomorrow - the reading actually goes pretty quickly - again, she knows how to pull her readers into her story and she has the ability, like a spy or crime writer, of wanting at the end of each page to know what will happen next.

Thanks again for your all's concern - yes, I live alone but take comfort, as I do knowing my son is a phone call away and would drive up in just under 3 hours - the folks next door are wonderful - all I have to do is call and they know Paul and Sally so they are almost like extended family. And if I am in a real pickle I do have a friend whose son lives a few streets away and she only lives up in Georgetown plus, I tend towards Doctors etc. that are old Austin so that there is a more personal nature to those connections when made as a result of the most important thing meeting someone in Austin.  Checking for connections with questions like, where you or your children went to school that is the same as in their family or where you went to church where you may have seen each other or knew the pastor or what community committee you served on, that you were part of some change that took place in Austin and best, that I never could use as a connection was, who your parents were related to or who were their neighbors - back when Austin was a typical small town in the south and west with aspects of both the south and the west, our everyday living was making contact through establishing a common knowledge of someone or something which opened the doors of communication.  And so it was easy - I did not know Dr. Widner but as things unfolded he knew Sally's uncle and knew of her father and so that gave us the connection that I was not just a stranger patient - I was Tom Gardner's daughter's mother-in-law and that is how he talked to me.

All that to say thanks but rest easy - I am alone but living in a big sanctuary of caring folks.  :-*
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #92 on: May 07, 2018, 02:15:42 AM »


Monday May, 7
We Continue our story of
Winter Garden
Chapters 14 through 20

That is focused
more and more on
the story of
Anya and Olga's
young life
in Russia.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #93 on: May 07, 2018, 02:37:07 AM »
A few quotes from Anna Akhmatova that say so perfectly what we are reading so far...

*I go forth to seek —
To seek and claim the lovely magic garden
Where grasses softly sigh and Muses speak.


*I don't know if you're alive or dead.
Can you on earth be sought,
Or only when the sunsets fade
Be mourned serenely in my thought?
*But here, in the murk of conflagration,
 where scarcely a friend is left to know
 we, the survivors, do not flinch
 from anything, not from a single blow.
 Surely the reckoning will be made
 after the passing of this cloud.
 We are the people without tears,
 straighter than you … more proud...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #94 on: May 07, 2018, 08:53:18 AM »
Wow, Barb, those quotes are right on.

I don't think we can say the fairy tale is disappointing when we're less than halfway through it.  We'll see.

bellamarie

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #95 on: May 07, 2018, 09:41:23 AM »
Barb, good to know you have so many connections close by, and that you are doing so much better.  Anna Akhmatova's quote are so sad, yet so real for those who lived through these times.

Yes, this book does seem to be unlike others we have read, where we tend to be going at a much quicker pace.  I mean, you can only talk so much about the relationship of these three women, and the fairy tale has not yet revealed anything monumental to discuss, since I think we all anticipated what it would be.  Yet, PatH., does point out we are only half way through it.  So....  I shall read on.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Jonathan

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #96 on: May 07, 2018, 11:45:50 AM »
Read on, Bellamarie. The ending is out of this world. As fairy tales should be. There should be a fairy tale in every life.

Barb we're all so happy to hear that you're convalescing so well. Permit me to quote you:
 
'...thank goodness I am not experiencing the ill health that many go through at my age because the medicines would have killed me by now.'

and

'rest easy. I am alone but living in a big sanctuary of caring folks.'

Your sentiments are so relevant to the subject of the book we are reading. The girls are doing the best they can for their mother, while living such busy lives themselves. And Mom is not exactly helpless. She has her garden and her Holy Corner. And of course her memories. How much do they mean to her? Could it have been a more pleasant family liife if she had known how to share. It must be their nature. The girls aren't exactly into sharing either.

Frybabe

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #97 on: May 07, 2018, 11:50:23 AM »
I think I read somewhere that Anna Akhmatova was in Leningrad for at least part of the siege.

I had to look up oil cakes. The best of what I found quickly, if for not other reason than that it includes pictures, is from Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_cake


BarbStAubrey

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #98 on: May 07, 2018, 10:44:57 PM »
From the survivors came this generation of children who have interpreted music with the honor given its place in Russia.

https://grandpianocompetition.com/ru/video/
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #99 on: May 08, 2018, 02:20:08 PM »
Just checking in.....  I have not had time to begin chapters 14-20, so can we wait a few days before we begin discussing them?  I don't want to fall behind, but yard work has had me so busy I have been falling asleep while watching TV at night.  I am going to try to get a few hours this afternoon to settle in and begin reading. 

Frybabe, those oil cakes do not look so delectable.  I wonder if they filled them with anything?
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Jonathan

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #100 on: May 08, 2018, 03:23:45 PM »
Me too, Bellamarie. So busy with yard work. A week of glorious weather has brought on a burst of spring. Almost summer. But it doesn't touch the sadness in AAA's poetry. And I'm sure you have also noticed the proud and defiant verses.

You're right, Frybabe. Anna Akhmatova must have lived all her life in Leningrad. What luck. I found a biography of her among the books my wife left me. She was keen on Russian history and how it affected our people who had migrated there from Western Europe (German heritage) at Catharine's invitation. Barb's 'ah, so' has a marvellous echo for me, and I find myself saying 'ach, Matova! The book has numerous references to Leningrad, with a half dozen pages on the Siege of Leningrad. Can there be any doubt that our author got a lot of inspiration from AA? Anya, KH says, haunted her. Doesn't she haunt us all? Even her daughters?

PatH

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #101 on: May 08, 2018, 04:06:24 PM »
I'm on no hurry to start talking.  I've read the chapters, and they get very intense, and a lot happens, but I'm now packing up to fly to Portland tomorrow, and don't have much time for anything else.  I'll have internet access there.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #102 on: May 08, 2018, 06:42:43 PM »
Looks like we are all taking a seventh inning stretch - part of it I think is Hannah packs so much into her story it takes a bit of time to let it settle - she explains so well the exchanges between her characters and now their backstory that also tells us about the emotions and conversations of the characters in her fairytale backstory.

So glad you included in your Post Jonathan the bit about Catherine inviting the Germans to live in Russia - did not know this and here is a nice article about how that took place including the subsequent history of German Russians.
http://www.dw.com/en/catherine-the-great-and-the-russian-germans/a-16965100

Not sure about those oil cakes either Bellamarie that Frybabe shared photos in her post - look an awful lot like dry cow patties don't they.

Safe trip Pat - that is a long flight or do you break it up with a stopover along the way - I remember the flight from Austin to Portland years ago when Paul's boys were just starting school and they lived for a couple of years in Beaverton - I used knit a pair a mittens on that flight that I think was over 5 hours. But then coming back I was in seventh heaven because the Portland airport had the best book store that was one of Powell's extensions - I always found something I could not be without and always picked up 3 or 4 books. Is there anything special you pickup in Seattle that you bring back with you even though I think you said you are emptying your house on the east coast.

I wonder if it is Spring in Leningrad (Saint Petersburg) the temp today shows it is 50 degrees - here in Austin that would be a cold day in winter but then that may be Spring time temps for Leningrad. I wonder when they start their gardens - many recipes use beets and that is an underground veggie so maybe they start now to plant things like beets, carrots and potatoes. 

Have any of you ever made coffee or tea in a Samovar? I cannot figure out from photos how they work - beautiful though...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #103 on: May 09, 2018, 09:25:05 AM »
Golly it is difficult to put this book down once you get into it - but it got so late last night and I stopped at chapter 18 - so 18, 19, and 20 to go. She writes this story like a detective novel - thank goodness the snarky drama between the girls is over and they are no longer wrangling with each other and Jeff appears to understand - it is true - how do you love another when you do not even know who you are, nor taken time to love yourself which must come first - Heck according to the commandments - 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'

Years ago, I remember hearing the story of a mother and daughter from Viet Nam who were boat people and she gave all the credit to her mother for taking care of herself first because she was then there for her, the daughter while those moms who took care of the children first either died or fell overboard or were so useless the kids were trying to take care of their mom. We are taught to take care of others first and that drains women so that by the time the children are grown often there is little left to rebuild a relationship as a couple again.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #104 on: May 09, 2018, 08:19:19 PM »
Well, I finally finished Ch 20,  phew...... this was a lot to take in, and I am still processing everything.  I kept thinking Anya the mother, was the little girl Anya, in the fairy tale/story.  Then when she revealed she is in fact Vera, and the photo is of Anya and Leo her two children I was so shocked.  So when and why did Vera decide to change her name to Anya?  Guess that's yet to come.
Gosh these chapters left me drained.  I went to prepare a light dinner for myself since hubby is at an usher's dinner, at the church, and I found myself so sad, and tears coming down my cheeks.  Jonathan, you said it would give us shivers, I have to tell you that these chapters have just hit me so emotionally, as a mother, who could never imagine letting go of my precious children, let alone at their young ages.  It's more than shivers, I think I felt the entire earth quake!

Funny how we just finished  A Gentleman In Moscow where Nina leaves her small daughter Sofia with the Count,  Vera leaves her children with her mother, and I just finished reading the book Before We Were Yours by Lisa Wingate and the parents leave their children on a river boat, because the mother is in early labor, and must get to hospital.  I realize circumstances call for drastic measures, but really?

Yes, Barb, it is nice to see the mother and two daughters finally spending quality time together, laughing, talking, drinking and sharing the fairy tale/story getting to know their mother.  Anya is getting more and more relaxed as she tells her life story.  Keeping it bottled up inside for all these years gives reason to become secluded and unaffectionant.  The winter garden she sits at constantly at home could be her way of visiting with Anya and Leo, reminding her of the summer garden she took Anya and Leo to in Leningrad.  We shall see.... a lot is left to be discovered, that's for sure.

Meredith and Nina are also coming to terms with their own relationships with the men in their lives, as they learn more of the story. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #105 on: May 10, 2018, 09:06:22 AM »
I just had a crazy thought this morning, as I was still thinking about the chapters I read yesterday.  What if....Dr. Vasily Adamovich could be Anya's Prince Sasha?  Is it at all possible?  I guess I am already trying to see a happily ever after here in this story, Meredith remains with her husband Jeff, Nina marries her boyfriend Danny, and Anya finds her Prince again.......   
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #106 on: May 10, 2018, 10:19:53 AM »
Bellamarie I had the same thought - but then decided it was too obvious but then - who knows maybe... we shall see what we shall see... I'm still reading... as you say - rough going...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #107 on: May 10, 2018, 01:01:16 PM »
It's really intense, isn't it?  The only amount of happy ending I feel pretty sure of is the sisters coming to a better understanding of themselves, each other, and their mother, and Anya finding a greater measure of peace.  I'm hoping for more, and may well get it.

bellamarie

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #108 on: May 10, 2018, 03:28:44 PM »
Barb, actually I didn't think it was the obvious at all when I was reading the chapters, it just dawned on me this morning.  A happy ending knowing the daughters and mother finally connect and find a better understanding would indeed be enough, but I am hoping for more as well.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Jonathan

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #109 on: May 10, 2018, 03:47:59 PM »
"Happy birthday, Mom," Meredith and Nina said together. Mom stared at the candle. "I have made so many mistakes," Mom said softly. "I wanted to tell you...but I couldn't even look at you, I was so ashamed....Yes. Long ago I was Veronika Petronova Marchenko." (284-5)

M and N are her daughters who are hoeing their own long, tough row. It's touching that sorrowing over Dad has brought them all together.

Really!! Couldn't Nina be more careful with Dad's ashes? Accidentally she gets the most moving photo. A blossom covered with ashes! A blossom turned grey. How symbolic of something.

bellamarie

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #110 on: May 10, 2018, 07:00:49 PM »
I could not believe when Nina spilled the ashes.  Was there a significance in the ashes being flung willy nilly?   It certainly got all three of them to laugh together.

pg. 200  They stood there, the three of them, laughing together in the middle of the winter garden, with the apple trees all around them, and it was the best tribute to him they could have made.  And later, when Mom and Meredith had gone inside, Nina stood there alone, in the quiet, staring down at the velvety white magnolia blossom dressed in gray ash.  "Did you hear us laughing?  We've never done that before, not the three of us, not together.  We laughed for you Dad..."

This seems to be the turning point of letting go of their Dad, and the beginning of the three of them uniting together. 

They hear more of the fairy tale and realize this is a story inside a story.....

pg.  226  "Black vans,"  Meredith said, leaning over Nina's shoulder  to read the rest.  "The secret police came to get people in black vans."  "The Black Knight is Stalin,"  Nina said.  "It's a story within a story."  "Some of it is real,"  Nina said quietly, feeling a shiver move through her.

There's Jonathan's word, "shiver."

So much to be discovered, or uncovered, or revealed ......

pg.  251  But the woman who'd just smiled was someone else entirely.  Secrets within secrets.  Was that what they'd discover on this trip?  That their mother was like one of her precious Russian nesting dolls, and if that were true, would they ever really see the one hidden deep inside?   

I feel like I am in Alice In Wonderland and I have fallen down the rabbit's hole, or jumped on Agatha Christie's Orient Express, so much seems fantasy, yet so much is real.

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Jonathan

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #111 on: May 11, 2018, 03:15:45 PM »
Wonderland? Orient Express? Or Russian Gothic? Bellamarie, I'll be disappointed if finding themselves means letting go of their Dad. Dad would be turning over in his grave at these happenings, if he had a grave. What a process this finding oneself can be. For all of them. With such intensity. Guilt trips and martyrdom. Mid-life crises and motherhood.

What a wonderful story. Such intensity. Poor Meredith. Must choose between losing Jeff or losing herself. And it's no easier for the others. From her sister, Nina, she gets: 'but you still think you don't know what you want.' (250) And from Jeff she gets: 'Safe travels, Mere. I hope you find what you're looking for.' (247)

Would this be a book to give Mother on her day? Or a book every daughter should read?

PatH

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #112 on: May 11, 2018, 04:56:03 PM »
Jonathan:
Quote
Would this be a book to give Mother on her day?
You made me laugh with that one.  Not a cheerful look at motherhood.

PatH

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #113 on: May 11, 2018, 05:25:35 PM »
Parents faced some awful choices in WW II.  Keep your children with you, or send them somewhere safer?  When you know what happened to the civilians who stayed in Leningrad, you think sending children away would be the better choice, but the evacuees weren't very safe either.  I don't know which way casualties were higher.

British parents faced a similar choice.  Many children were sent to Canada to get them away from the air raids.  The sea voyage was dangerous, but at least once they arrived they were safe.  Jonathan, do you have any knowledge of how these children fared?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #114 on: May 11, 2018, 05:38:57 PM »
Ashes - maybe that is the trick - just trip over something and let the gods take care of it - worse than a burial - at least at the cemetery it is out of your hands - yep, still have in a white, paper mâché box my son's ashes and no closer to getting back to New Mexico than 10 years ago when he died... me or my

Yes, you hit it Bellamarie - I feel like I am in Alice In Wonderland and I have fallen down the rabbit's hole all that is missing is one of the goblins or driver of the black van to go through the streets shouting 'off with their heads' - everyone knows that is what is happening only it is never said aloud.

Naw Jonathan prefer a more up-beat story or one with more elan as a gift to or from... The kind of pain that does not leave and pops up at the oddest circumstances is not fun to read about or live with and so, maybe it is playing make believe to not want to read how others handle it - Vonnegut writes of his brush with barbarity as a new mod interpretation of the Bible and Heller handles the aftermath of the incomprehensible so that the inconceivable seems as if standing in front of a distorting fun house mirror but neither attempt to include the impenetrable pain and confusion into a what is supposed to be a coherent life, as if normalizing PTSD and the original abominations.

Reading this I take more showers to warm me and wash away the shivers. Maybe that is it - just turn into an icicle till it is over... I do not read anything that allows me to get my head around and explore a new premise because of any characters' circumstance. At least with Vonnegut I could smile at his interpretations of God and Jesus versus those who disrupted the conceivable nature of (wo)man. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #115 on: May 11, 2018, 05:45:02 PM »
Ah yes, Pat - not cheerful is it... does macabre fit do you think?
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #116 on: May 11, 2018, 10:16:54 PM »
No, Jonathan, at this point in the book I would not recommend it for a Mother's Day gift.  Just give me a Barnes and Noble gift card and let me go pick a book out by myself.  I remember one year my son picked a book out for me and I thoroughly loved it!  It took place in Nantucket in the summer.  This book is a tough read, emotionally.  I find myself feeling so sad, thinking how this family spent so many years living in the same house, yet so very far apart.  Yes, they will all have to let go of Evan at some point, I think the spilled ashes are indeed a first step of it beginning, going on the trip to Alaska is yet another step of letting go of their grief.  By the time they return home, I feel they will have all worked through many issues, and face their future......Kay Sera Sera.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #117 on: May 11, 2018, 11:25:19 PM »
Barb, yes.  Macabre is perfect.

Bellamarie, you speak of them having to let go of Evan.  I wonder if instead they are finally going to understand him completely.  So far, we know a lot about the motives of most of the characters.  We' listen to a lot of the thoughts of Meredith and Nina.  We're given a good idea of Jeff and Danny.  We're beginning to get a notion of the hugely damaged Anya/Vera.  But what about Evan?  We know he loves his children dearly, and his wife fiercely and protectively, but what is he thinking as he lets his children be emotionally stunted in spite of his efforts to fill in?  I'm sure it was a thought-out decision.  What is it like to live with the results?

Frybabe

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #118 on: May 12, 2018, 07:07:24 AM »
Ah yes, Evan hasn't been "fleshed-out" as much as we would like, neither has Sasha, who is Vera's first love.

Does Anya/Vera suffer from survivor's guilt in conjunction with PTSD?  She seems to, blaming herself for her children's and her mother's deaths. While she adored Evan, she couldn't let go of Sasha or the children.

PatH, here is part of an answer from a chapter abstract of the book The Disentanglement of Population by Elizabeth White. https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9780230297685_12  More info, this is about the evacuation and tracing relatives. The author(s) of this website recommend another book, To the Tashkent Station by Rebecca Manley. Below the book recommendation is a list of resources and links which include the Siege of Leningrad.

bellamarie

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Re: Winter Garden ~ Kristin Hannah ~ Prediscussion is open!
« Reply #119 on: May 12, 2018, 09:49:54 AM »
Good points PatH., and Frybabe,  we haven't even gotten to how Evan and Anya met, nor anything other than as you mention, his relationship with the daughters, and adoration for the wife. 

PatH.,
Quote
but what is he thinking as he lets his children be emotionally stunted in spite of his efforts to fill in?

As a child growing up with a parent being killed when I was only the age of 3, and a mother trying to keep his memory alive, so us seven children would know something about him, and the older ones to never forget him, I can tell you, she gave me comfort, but could NEVER fill that void of not having him physically to see, touch, talk to, and love.  I adore the man/Daddy I have been raised to know through pictures and memories/stories from my mother and siblings, but to say I knew him personally, I could not do.  Evan has indeed tried to be the substitute for Anya's emotional absence with their daughters, but as we can see, they have so much to deal with as adults from their mother being secluded in her own memories, grief, guilt, etc., etc.  No parent can replace the other parent.

Frybabe
Quote
Does Anya/Vera suffer from survivor's guilt in conjunction with PTSD?  She seems to, blaming herself for her children's and her mother's deaths.

I  have not read ahead, so learning the mother and children die, and she is possibly blaming herself was a nugget to read.  I was in some way holding out that the children survived, and this Dr. A. in the nursing home in Alaska, would give her some info in finding them.  As Barb would say,  Ah-so......  Survivor's guilt and PTSD makes sense for sure.  I wonder how many times Anya reached into that coat pocket and pulled out the photo of Anya and Leo and stared at it, longing for them? 

I do hope we get to know how Anya and Evan met, and how he became her protector, allowing her to live a life so distant from their daughters.  When did Anya let go of her name Vera?  How did she come to live in the United States?  I wonder if Evan ends up being an American soldier and they met during war time?  We finally learned Anys is eighty-one years old, and they celebrate her birthday for the first time.  Ughhh..... can you imagine never knowing your mother's age or birth date?  These girls need to uncover so much about their family history before their mother dies.  She keeps saying, who will take care of them once she is gone, they have each other, but do they have living family they don't know about?

Barb, are we ready to move on to the next chapters?  I don't want to rush anyone, but it seems there is so much on the cusp of learning in Alaska.  Shall we depart from the ship and search for answers?
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden