Author Topic: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OCT. 14,2009-Feb.17,2020  (Read 48702 times)

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Join us as we Read of
Strife, Struggle, the Underworld,
Chivalry and the Heroic in:


Chapter by Chapter
Each Week Starting
Monday, October 14
We eavesdrop on
the innermost thoughts,
the mental inheritance,
of mankind.
~

Translation by Lady Charlotte Guest
The Mabinogion

Schedule
October 14.......The Lady of the Fountain
October 28.......Peredur the Son of Evrawc
November 11....Geraint the Son of Erbin
November 18....Kilhwch and Olwen
November 25....The Dream of Rhonabwy
December 02....Pwyll Prince of Dyved
December 09....Branwen the Daughter of Llyr
January 06.......Manawyddan the Son of Llyr
January 13.......Math the Son of Mathonwy
January 20.......The Dream of Maxen Wledig
January 27.......The Story of Lludd and Llevelys
February 04.....Taliesin

Discussion Leader: Barbara

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2019, 03:09:51 PM »
And so we start our journey into the Middle Ages with a group of stories under the title The Mabinogion.

Planning how to read the book it seemed reasonable that one chapter a week would work - now after reading some for myself I realize we have our work cut out for us - The annotated notes by Lady Charlotte Guest are not just wonderful but necessary to understand the references that would easily go right over our heads.

At first I thought 'just read and then go back to the notes' - after the first two paragraphs of The Lady of the Fountain that plan went out the window after seeing how much I miss-understood without the notes. Like the inference of there being no Porter present.

Then referring constantly to the notes I was loosing the story and so for me, I am reading, stopping for each note (of which in some instances there are notes within notes) and then, I read the couple of paragraphs I researched and still it was not enough and so, I have a three read plan - Read, paying attention to all the notes - Then re-read and finally re-read for the third time however, the third time I'm re-reading the paragraphs aloud. Further, reading it allowed I pick up a rhythm that alluded me when I read to myself.

My instinct is telling me that after a quarter of the chapter (story) I will have to go back and read that entire quarter section aloud in order to really grasp what the scene is all about - so many names and places that I had not heard of that are used so casually telling this tale and out of it, to discover the theme or meaning of/for the tale will stretch our mind's eye back many centuries, as we continue the legacy of reading and telling these legends and myths, I can now more easily see that we travel back into the inner mind of long ago ancestors.

Now font size - I found on my computer - not sure of formal names but on top is where I have my 'toolbar' that includes site information and an icon for my history etc. and I do have a separate search window - at the end of all that on the right side are 3 horizontal bars that when I put my curser on the 3 bars it says 'open menu' - when I open it there are many options including the amount of zoom - when I hit zoom it increased the size of my fonts from 100% by 10% with each tap till I have found a comfortable size for reading - I did find that everytime I open a new topic or page on the computer I have to readjust the zoom.

Hopefully everyone can adjust the size of the font on their computer - I find by changing the font size to the common size 12 pts using the links above our posts that allows the font size to be altered, that change is much too large for me and take up so much window space I have to struggle to read a post written using that way to alter the font size -

We all want to be comfortable - In the past the Senior Learn site had a way to consistently and individually alter font size but that service is no longer available- Jane gave us this link to help:   
https://www.techlicious.com/tip/how-to-make-text-larger/

Please we want everyone to be comfortable so lets see what we can do... there has to be a way for everyone to read posts easily.

If reading, what amounts to a short story each week becomes daunting, we can change our schedule but, let's try this first chapter (short story) and see how it goes.

I do not know if these stories are built on one another or if they are independent of each other - If independent it makes it easy for anyone to join us anytime while we are reading-

This is going to be a new experience for us --- together we can read The Mabinogion where as, on our own we may have passed and not tackled all these names and places and huge difference in time and culture - I'm excited and will be thankful for everyone's contribution - I could be wrong but, I am thinking those of you who read fantasy may be more familiar with some of these names and places if not the manner or style used to tell a story. All I know, the idea of reading a chapter before hand went out the window for me - I'm leaning on y'all.

OK let the stories begin....

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2019, 06:13:33 AM »
Yikes!

I was going to start reading this yesterday, but forgot.

Don't know yet if this dictionary will help yet or not. http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19704/19704-h/19704-h.htm

Also, a summary of the story courtesy of BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/themes/society/myths_owain.shtml




PatH

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2019, 09:26:09 AM »
Frybabe, I've been meaning to ask you if you or any of your family speaks Welsh.  The few times I've heard it, spoken by friends, it had such a lovely, soft liquid music to it.

Thanks for the link.  I'm glad to see that I didn't misunderstand the story, and it clarified a few things.

It's only the three of us so far.  We can go at whatever pace we like.

marmieone

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2019, 11:03:31 AM »
Good morning - I had hoped to join this and read the first story, but after looking at the admin post, I can see I have the wrong edition.  I do have the one translated by Lady Guest but there are no notes appended except for a brief seven at the end of Taliesin.  Can someone let me know which edition I should purchase?  Thanks.

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2019, 11:13:44 AM »
It looks as though I hadn't noticed that everything is included(including all the notes) on this site. Thank you for this.  I will now read the notes as well. Is this the case for each book you are reading? I'm so used to purchasing books for a book club.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2019, 12:56:01 PM »
Welcome marmieone - glad you found us - this book just happens to be on the web - many that are at least 50 years old can be found if no where else with Gutenburg - in fact mamieone there are several editions of this book available on the web - this one not only had notes but it was an attractive reproduction - however the notes were the most important - newer books we try to wait till they are in the library and available used - Yep we are a frugal bunch - always have been...  ;)

Also another change - we used to have a series of questions for the pages we were reading that week but with just a few of us we will eke the information alluded to in these chapters and add any supporting information - so come along and add to our journey - its been awhile since we read stories going back into the medieval.

Frybabe looks like you found two good links - have not explored them yet - just got in here and I will explore both this afternoon - I'm still reading the chapter that for me is slow going.

Pat yes, with a few of us reading Mabinogion we can set our own pace - I feel sure once we get into it or maybe it is me, that reading the stories will be easier... this one I feel like I need a play card to remember who is who... In fact I may do just that.   

OK important to me - has everyone found a way to make their font size work - please, if not, we need to figure that out -

Ok the Porter had me - I'm thinking how today there is a porter dressed in livery at the door of a nice hotel, who sees to your luggage but then there is also the school porter or hall porter who are cleaning and maintenance personal then there are porters who carry loads of supplies for those climbing the highest peaks of the world - so I looked further and learned this tidbit.

Porter means two different jobs in the Middle Ages.

The first and simplest is—a common, unskilled laborer who loads and unloads things, and often carries them over distances.

The second meaning comes from Latin port, which means “door.” This porter was an very important person, for he decided who was allowed into a lord’s hall. He stood guard there, not as a soldier, but as an interviewer who questioned the identity of anyone that he did not know who wished to enter. If the person’s business was unimportant he was refused, and if the timing was wrong, he was refused."

Another gave as an example, "from Culhwch and Olwen where the porter doesn’t allow Culhwch into the hall, where the meal has already begun. Culhwch then threatens to curse everyone in the hall, so the porter goes and reports to the king what has transpired. Arthur replies:

“Man, if you came in here walking, you better go out of here running and invite that fellow in!”

Culhwch turns out to be Arthur’s cousin, requesting a ritual haircut (indicating basically initiation into manhood) and asking the king to help him acquire Olwen as his wife by fulfilling a large series of magical tasks that culminate with seizing a comb and scissors from the gigantic, supernatural Troit Boar."
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2019, 01:13:21 PM »
Frybabe manna - just reviewed both links - yes, to start off having the story simplified is helpful - not sure if I can change my 3 read pattern yet but it helps - and the dictionary Wow...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2019, 01:47:39 PM »
aha - several of us are having difficulty with the name of the book and thanks to Frybabe's dictionary I found a definition and then online found the use of the ion suffex

Mabinog, a. juvenile, infantine
Mab, n. a male: a boy; a son

-on/-ion plurals

        mab (sing.) – meibion (pl.) 'son/sons'

The -ion suffix can usually be predicted for the following types of noun:

    Nouns ending in -og denoting persons. Examples:
        swyddog > swyddogion 'officer/officers'
        tywysog > tywysogion 'prince/princes'

from this I am deducing that Mabinog is a juvenile, or possibly a young son where as, Mabinogion is the plural meaning juveniles. So then the question is who are the juveniles or are the stories from so early in the history of the land considered juvenile denoting early history - since these were oral before written my guess is that men were the carriers of the oral story telling tradition - certainly would fit the concept of the Bard who sang the early myths and legends.

hmm more to ponder - put Mabinog in the online Welsh to English dictionary  and the translation is sonorous meaning --- capable of producing a deep or ringing sound --- (of a speech or style) using imposing language.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Moginogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2019, 02:14:52 PM »
Hi Marmieone. Welcome aboard!

For those that want to hear Welsh pronunciation, there are tutorials up on YouTube that I haven't had a chance to listen to. Also, don't forget Google's audio translator. I am on the computer without my audio hooked up, so I can't listen to any of it just now. I will have to force myself to drag out my external speakers again and hook them up. Hopefully, the cats will leave the wires alone now. Chewy little buggers they are.

PatH, Mom  was brought up when they were still discouraging use of the Welsh language. She knew very little, but certainly could pronounce those double L's. I thought it sounded almost like clearing one's throat. I never could get the hang of rolling my R's. I never got around to learning the language.

Well, I haven't got but a few lines in and already I found something interesting. It appears, just like in ancient China, when one receives guests or visitors, one has them bathe and then new clothes are given to them to wear.  In China, I got the impression that the new clothes were gifted to the visitor. I can see that it certainly solves the problem of carrying lots of baggage with you and makes sure you are dressed appropriately for the occasion. In ancient China, proper clothing to the occasion was an important part of good manners and avoided insult to the host.

My downloaded copy of The Mabinogion seems to have disappeared. I don't remember deleting it. Oh, well, that is easily fixed.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2019, 02:57:13 PM »
Interesting frybabe about the new clothes - sure takes away the smells of riding through the countryside from place to place.

Sad phase in our history that so many do not share easily their parents language because of repression - your Mom is among that group - sad...

Trying to understand who some of these characters are telling the story and found this tidbit "Yvain is the cousin of Gawain and the son of Morgan le Fay and Uriens. As Owain, he appears in the Welsh tale of The Dream of Rhonabwy and is the hero of the Welsh analogue to Chrétien de Troye's Yvain or the Knight of the Lion. Both Chrétien's tale and the Welsh Owain tell the story of Yvain's (or Owain's) adventures...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

marmieone

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2019, 04:13:18 PM »
Thinking of those oral storytellers, is it too much of a stretch to think that the "juveniles" were those young men listening to the tales and being inspired to achieve greatness themselves?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2019, 05:51:20 PM »
hmm - could it be - sounds like a good possibility marmieone
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2019, 06:17:55 PM »
Throne Room, also known as the Presence Chamber, where the viceroy or monarch received people, and its significance in the context of wider political, economic, social, and cultural contexts across the centuries.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2019, 06:53:57 PM »
So far I've taken a rather relaxed attitude toward the story.  I read it, occasionally shifting over to the notes, scanning for something useful, then read Frybabe's retelling.  I'll probably go round again, filling in details snd getting everything straight.  Some of the notes are very useful.  When Owain gets trapped between the portcullis and the gate, a damsel comes up to him and sees his situation:
"Truly," said the damsel, "it is very sad that thou canst not be released, and every woman ought to succour thee, for I never saw one more faithful in the service of ladies than thou. As a friend thou art the most sincere, and as a lover the most devoted."

I thought "how does she know?"  Turns out she knew him at King Arthur's Court.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2019, 07:34:40 PM »
that is what I am picking up also Pat - it appears the more you know about Arthur and his court and all the personalities-in the Arthur stories the more this story makes sense

The three knights are intimates of Arthur and the more I read the more I learn there is a revelry between Kai and Owain - it seems Owain is the more quiet and self effacing knight, who typically does not go around sharing his dare and do while Kai is very gregarious - seems in historical tradition Owain still has a large hold and affection as a symbol for the Welsh -

From bits I have read in the past about courtly love, it was not the bower and roses of a Romeo and Juliet but typically between a married lady and a knight - not only after their liaison does the lady rule the knight's decisions but he pronounces his love by starving himself and other mortification we typically associate with penance in the Catholic Church at the time.

I'm remembering the movie Camelot and the scene when they are a-Maying - these are the three knights in that scene and so it would be that Guinevere is included in the first scene with her ladies - I'm getting the inference she had more than a liaison with Lancelot but with these knights as well or they are vying for her attention. And so Arthur taking a nap could be a metaphor to his wanting to close his eyes to Guinevere's dalliances.

Looks like another book on Owain was published in the last few years...
https://americymru.net/tags/owain%20glyndwr

oh yes and King Ban of Benoic is more then an ally to Arthur, he is the father of Lancelot.
https://www.nightbringer.se/a_banbenwick.html

this simple story appears to be tangled with far more then what is written on the pages...



 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2019, 01:29:29 PM »
Fun - found this - looks like beef collops is still a dish fixed and served - I wonder - Frybabe do you know - is collops a traditional dish served the Monday before Ash Wednesday in Wales as it appears to be in Scotland - now I am wondering if collops would have been traditional pre Ash Wednesday in the middle ages or before that gives us a timeline to this story?

https://www.lavenderandlovage.com/2018/02/beef-collops-collop-monday.html
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2019, 02:18:33 PM »
Interesting find that goes with our trying to parse the meaning of Mabinog

"Literary historian Jacques Le Goff (here quoting Georges Duby (a French historian who specialized
in the social and economic history of the Middle Ages. He ranks among the most influential medieval
historians of the twentieth century and was one of France's most prominent public intellectuals from
the 1970s to his death)) calls attention to a particular group within twelfth century aristocratic society
known simply as ‘youths’ (juvens) in Old French, cnihtes (>‘knights’) in Middle English:

Duby writes: “A youth was in fact a grown man, an adult.
He was admitted to a group of warriors, given arms, and dubbed; in other words
he became a knight… Youth can therefore be defined as the part of life comprised
between dubbing and fatherhood” which could be very long time indeed.

Youths were footloose, vagabond and violent. They were the “leading element in
feudal aggressiveness.” And their long, adventurous quest –
“a long sojourn shames a young man” – had a purpose: to find a rich mate.
“The intention of marrying seems to have governed all of a young man’s actions,
impelling him to cut a brilliant figure in combat and to show his prowess in athletic
matches”.

Marriage was made more difficult by the proscriptions of the Church, which often
made it impossible to find a bride close to home. Duby himself has noted the
inescapable parallel between this situation and that described in the courtly literature.

That the heroes of Arthurian Romance (both French and Welsh) can be described in these terms is beyond doubt.
They are almost all represented in the first instance as landless youths, drawn into the ‘warrior society’ at
the court of Arthur, but subsequently driven to wander further afield. They are driven by a kind of compulsive
restlessness which characterizes feral youth in its quest for material and sexual satisfaction.

The life of these young men, in historical fact as much as in the Romantic imagination, was a complex field
in which bravery and aggression were required to win a place among the settled world of married,
property-holding adults; while at the same time these very same instincts were repeatedly (and necessarily)
curbed by the injunctions of church and feudal bond. "
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2019, 05:35:35 PM »
A Woodward was a keeper of an entire forest!

Forester was also a title used widely during Medieval times. The forester usually held a position equal to a sheriff or local law enforcer, and he could act as a barrister or arbiter. He was often based in a forester's lodge, and was responsible for patrolling the woodlands on a lord or noble's property, hence the synonymous term 'woodward'.

His duties included negotiating sales of lumber and timber and stopping poachers from illegally hunting. Frequently outlaws would take refuge in heavily wooded regions. When this occurred it was the duty of the forester to organize armed posses to capture or disperse the criminals and during war time foresters were used as scouts to spy on enemy troop movement. The pay and status of foresters was usually above average, reflecting the responsibility of their role in a medieval environment and economy.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2019, 08:27:22 AM »
Barb, I have never heard of Collop Monday. Bellamarie may know a little about when it became a "thing". Best I can tell, the meal consists of  a variety of meats, eggs, butter and such that are forbidden during lent.

Geoffrey of Monmouth is credited with bringing us the legend of King Arthur and making it popular. Geoffrey was a Welsh cleric living in the early 12th century. He got his information about Arthur from early historians such as the Venerable Bede (c. 673 CE - 735 CE), and Gildas (c. 500-570 CE)who wrote of a Welsh war-lord who defeated the Saxons at Badon Hill. Nennius, writing in the early 9th century, however, appears to have been the first to elevate Arthur to national hero status. The Battle of Badon Hill happened somewhere around 460 CE. King Arthur and companions lived in the Early Medieval period, whereas much of what we read and see of the King Arthur legend seems to be set in the Middle to High Medieval period. I think that is because the High Medieval period was much more showy what with their expensive clothing, jousts and knights in shining armor, and of course, the concept of courtly love (originally a literary fiction begun in the early 12th century and later became fashionable during the High Medieval Age). Lady Charlotte Guest got her tales from the Red Book of Hergest  (stories and poems complied around 1382) which Ioan (John) Tegid helped her translate. So, I am thinking a lot of the old stories and tales were "moderized" for the current readers of the day.

Must soon go feed George's cats.

PatH

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2019, 09:20:03 AM »
The Oxford English Dictionary has almost two columns on collops.  Collops can be slices of bacon (this would be the English bacon, which is lean, like ham) fried with eggs, and that's what they are on Collop Monday, the day before Shrove Tuesday.  They also are slices of meat for broiling or frying, or the broiled slices, and that's surely what they are here.  Gantz, in the hardback I have, translates them "chops".


PatH

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2019, 09:44:47 AM »
Frybabe, thanks for the history.  So we have earlier tales tales modernized to varying degrees in later Medieval times.

I hadn't realized how much the Mabinogion was interlaced with the Arthur tales, though I think that after the first few, we will get a whole different cast of characters.  I was big on the King Arthur tales as a child, getting them from Howard Pyle's books, which were one of our choices.  There are four large books of them, full of tales like the one we're reading, heavily sprinkled with Pyle's magnificent pen and ink drawings.  I'll have to dredge up my memory of the cast of characters, which is pretty rusty.

Sir Kai, or Kay, was King Arthur's seneschal, or steward.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2019, 01:41:47 PM »
Thanks frybabe for the background on the Arthur tales - after getting to know the characters in that first bit I could read the story without all my triple read - it was just that slam dunk with the Arthur stories that like you Pat I read as a child and sorta knew since it was big during and right after the Kennedy administration but this brought the stories characters into my lap and I just could not go forward till I learned who they were and how they related to each other and to Arthur.

Yes that is what I am reading - older stores that were finally written down during the middle ages with some of the cultural differences between when the stories were taking place and were still told by Bards and storytellers to when they were finally put on paper. Of what I knew about the Arthur stories I never pieced it together they were about a time AFTER the Roman conquest of Britain - these stories sound so ancient and in relation to the Romans and even probably many of the Nordic invasions the time of Arthur is not near as old. 

Someplace in my reading it said that Gawain was the most written about but never received the attention from readers as did Lancelot

Found this - I had not heard of the Vulgate Cycle - http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/vulgate.html

I only remember the word Vulgate used as one of the early Latin translated Bibles still housed in the Vatican - evidently these Arthur stories are after, as you shared frybabe, Geoffrey of Monmouth and then there is the connection to Brittany that also brings Chrétien de Troyes' 5 Arthur stories into the cannon -

Does anyone know if Chrétien is a he or a she - some sites refer to this writer as a she and other sites say he? And I had no idea that Joseph of Arimathea is included in the Arthur stories.

There are sure a lot of scholars adding their research and discoveries to the Arthur stories - wow it goes on and on.

Ah so then Collops Monday must be a Scottish thing - the photo of the recipe is not very appetizing to look at - hmm maybe it is one of these comfort foods that taste better then they look. I just never even heard the word - now mead I knew is a fermented drink like beer made from honey - I've seen where you can still purchase mead - never have tried it so maybe it is time - worst is I do not like it and pour it into a saucer to catch unwanted bugs in the garage.

OH oh oh my look at here - the site has a wonderful list of the authors and their books that are part of the cannon on Arthur -tra la - this is great...   http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/lib-arthur.html
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2019, 02:00:52 PM »
aha Pat so he was the seneschal, or steward. Had to look that up and so he pretty much runs the house even with legal status... "A steward, particularly (historical) one in charge of a medieval nobleman's estate. (historical) An officer of the crown in late medieval and early modern France who served as a kind of governor and chief justice of the royal court in Normandy and Languedoc."
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BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2019, 12:58:48 PM »
Using a horse block
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2019, 02:06:51 PM »
After reading the entire story and all the notes - I am not sure what to make of it - on the surface it appears to be the adventures of Owain however, mentioning extreme unction, one of the seven sacraments and so many things in groups of three, an analogy to the Trinity, I'm thinking there is some Christian message in these stories -

Have any of you figured out if there is a message and what it could be? Or is is just a lot of fanciful happenings - there has to be more or why would this story be included in a collection of stories that are essentially sacred to the Welsh?

Never imagined we would be so deep into the Arthur stories but I sure learned a lot about how they came about however, it is all the names that are overwhelming - I got the first group and have an idea of the personality for each knight but then later there are all the connections with wives and husbands named - you could be days getting that all straight in your mind.

Did find a site explaining the British Triads that kept popping up in the notes... here is the web site - over 120 of these triads that are all established in ancient times.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Triads_of_Britain
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

marmieone

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2019, 05:19:09 PM »
Here's another source of information for us.  I have been trying my best for several years to understand it.  I think reading the Mabinognian plus notes is going to help.  C. S. Lewis The Allegory of Love. Possibly you have all read it. This is a series of six lectures Lewis gave.  He says that it is a study in medieval tradition.

Jonathan

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2019, 06:06:14 PM »
What a fabulous subject, Barb. Overwhelming. I've just spent an hour at the timelessmyth link you provided in post #22, which provided a further link to the Mabinogion page (halfway down). Awesome. What a heritage of mythical tales! This is going to take some absorbing to comment on it intelligently. A wonderful undertaking!

Jonathan

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2019, 06:10:34 PM »
Thanks for the C. S. Lewis reference, marm. I love his thoughts on anything.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2019, 08:00:03 PM »
Glad to see you drop in Jonathan - yes, if the intelligence is even tap-able with these stories - this is taking us into a very different discussion isn't it - as of now I feel like we are circling the evidence trying to make what we can from what we read much like a small group of scouts on the western plains trying to figure out from a cow pie where the herd has gone. 

marmieone I've just spent a lovely hour and a half with Inspector Lewis - seems one in the series was called Allegory of Love and of course writers and professors in the midst of the world of fantasy with lots of connections to C. S. Lewis 
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy5r_p4wJRE

And then wonders of wonders found the book Allegory of Love by C.S. Lewis on line - here we go
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.170836/page/n1

This is brilliant marmieone - you have us stepping into a gold mine.

So far the best I can do is see small lessons in life and character rather than an overall meaningful thesis - one comes across to me is that being a knight means following a code of behavior regardless how difficult or the personal sacrifice.

In some link that I cannot remember which, there was this in the heading ---

The Lady of the Fountain
or
The Solar Hero in the Dark World of Women.

We forget how women were only foils for the hero - our sense of equality really gets in the way of understanding - With all the gold and silver, water cleansing and drying with fine linen cloth and the wearing and supplying silken clothes - was provided by women or magic but did not represent a group of women - a single women could be in the light but a group - no way - and after referring to my book on symbolism a number greater than 18 means 'all of' not just many but, many of the entire substance. And so all those 20 to 24 and 26 damsels represented womanhood. Where as six women assigned to certain tasks represent Harmony, love, health, beauty with the actual number 6 a symbol for the upward stroke of men and the lower circular container of women therefore unified in harmony. 

Regardless if early story tellers know the symbolic meaning for numbers they would be a part of the culture that placed women in a 'Dark World' whose task, according to this myth, is to provide a knight with the opportunity to shine as a hero. And here I saw Owain as simply a stubborn knight who was very good on the field - not even thinking it was important for him to be seen as a hero - the knight in shining armor - which my guess is he is a role model as is a hero today just as it was the accepted role for women to prepare a man for his hero role.

No sense having an opinion - all we are doing is saying today's views on the sexes is not only different but yes, we still are bumping up against this 'myth' that seems to be carried in the masculine DNA.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2019, 01:21:52 AM »
Recap on the various links brought to our attention during this first chapter

Dictionary of Welsh words.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19704/19704-h/19704-h.htm

A summary of the story courtesy of BBC:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/themes/society/myths_owain.shtml

Book on Owain was published in the last few years...
https://americymru.net/tags/owain%20glyndwr

Not the Owain of our story The Lady of the Fountain - this is a Welsh hero who came to the aid of Wales in in 1400 when he led a revolt against Britain and even Welsh soldiers fighting in the British army left and came home to Wales to fight with Owain Glyndwr, (Owen Glendower) not Owain son of Uryen Rhegd, (Owain Ab Urien Rheged) a companion to Arthur.
https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofWales/Owen-Glendower-Owain-Glyndwr/

King Ban of Benoic  is the father of Lancelot.
https://www.nightbringer.se/a_banbenwick.html

Recipe Beef Collops
https://www.lavenderandlovage.com/2018/02/beef-collops-collop-monday.html

Vulgate Cycle
http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/vulgate.html

List of the authors and their books that are part of the cannon on Arthur
http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/lib-arthur.html

The Triads
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Triads_of_Britain

Allegory of Love by C.S. Lewis
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.170836/page/n1
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2019, 06:21:14 AM »
First, thanks to Marmieone for the mention of C. S. Lewis' Allegory of Love. It now resides in my TBR pile. Allegory is not something I ever think of when reading, but after reading a definition of it, I realize that many of the books I read have allegorical elements in them. I can't tell you how often I have run across a scenario in Science Fiction that resembles a moral or political issue in disguise. But then maybe that isn't allegory at all, just projecting today's or history's events and people into the future and changing the names and places of same. Besides, I always thought allegory was more subtle than that. About the time I read Undine by Friedrich Heinrich Karl, Baron de la Motte Fouque, I ran across an essay about  Albrecht Dürer's Knight, Death and the Devil as allegory in art.  I hope Lewis' book will give me a little better way to spot true allegory, especially the more subtle passages.

Didn't much like the horse getting chopped in half. Yuck! Then we come to the lion.  How interesting. A lion in Britain. I wonder just how far back this tale goes and what the lion was back then. But then, the tale's originators could have seen a lion either brought into Britain for gladiatorial games, or described by Roman army veterans who retired to Britain and passed down tales. After the Romans pulled out, were there any private animal collections left there? My mind is running in odd directions this morning.

Thought you might like to see N. C. Wyeth's art for A Boy's King Arthur (an adaptation of Mallory's History of King Arthur and His Knights)  by the poet Sidney Lanier.  http://collections.brandywine.org/ncwcr/2208/the-boys-king-arthur;jsessionid=26CDFB7A8463EA2985ECFA3A77008A8C/objects

Frybabe

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2019, 11:49:28 AM »
I've just discovered that Audible has The Mabinogion, both Sioned Davies translation and Lady Charlotte Guest's translation. I have the Davies one added to my wishlist. It also has Le Morte D'Arthur. Since I never read that and the narrator seems good, I have that also on my wishlist.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2019, 04:04:54 PM »
What a treat frybabe - the illustrations brought me back to my childhood - I loved books filled with adventure even though back then the action was male dominated - I could still see myself as the hero and never did identify with the damsel in distress even while reading the Leatherstocking Tales - so many of the really good books were illustrated by Wyeth. Interesting, those books with the Wyeth illustrations held up so much better - I have books like the full story of Black Beauty and a few others that I dare not even open the covers any longer - last time I did around 20 years ago the pages were so brittle they were about to disintegrate - they are past the tear easily stage.

aha you have sent me on a search frybabe - I remember my grandmother telling me the story of Undine when I was a young child - as my memory floated in I could hear her and it was in German - found the story written in German on Amazon and thought I could download the audio version but I do not own any of the devises that would accept the audio - finally it hit and yep, found it on YouTube - several versions in fact - so with German print version that I ordered for my kindle and the youtube readings I may be able to access more of my German centered memory - and if all else fails I have the English translation that I can compare to the German - I've got my work cut out - thanks this is great... a new project.

What I need to do after your saying you want another translated version by another author of the Mabinogion I know I have various texts of the Arthur stories - I need to gather them into one spot and see exactly what I have - I know there is Mallory's translation and other more contemporary volumes but have no idea of what.

Remember when Joseph Campbell was all the rage - seems to me he had something to say about the Welsh and about Arthur - I got rid of so many of the books he published but I think I still have The Power of Myth - I did have but maybe it is still in some drawer The Hero with a Thousand Faces - another venture to add to my list - since I am trying to clear out this house it easily fits.

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2019, 05:37:44 PM »
I remember the big rave over Joseph Campbell. Wasn't there a TV series with him narrating? Oh, yes! I just looked it up. He did a series of six interview style, one-hour shows with Bill Moyers. Wikipedia lists a bunch of audio recordings he did starting way back before 1970. I wonder if they are available on archive.org or elsewhere. I never got past Edith Hamilton's Mythology when I was young.

PatH

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2019, 10:00:15 AM »
Wow, there's so much going on I don't even know where to start.  I want to leap on my horse and ride off in all directions, and unfortunately it's a weekend filled with inescapable chores.   I've got to get hold of the C. S. Lewis.  Thank you, marmieone.

Frybabe, you're actually getting down to the story!  The incident of the horse is yucky, but it also contained a line I found funny.  Here's Owain, trapped between two gates, sitting on half a dead horse, surrounded by enemies, " and Owain was in a perplexing situation".  I think I might be a bit perplexed too.

I think you're right that the lion comes from the Roman influence.  The myth-tellers needn't have ever seen one; the knights slew dragons too.  Here's a nice one.

https://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/image/pyle-launcelot-slayeth-worm

Incidentally our lion is black, but he's white in my hardback.  Gantz explains: he's black in the Red Book, and white in the White book.

Gantz also mentions the motif of triads, as well as a motif of regeneration throughout.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2019, 04:03:26 PM »
Pat all I could think of was Harry Potter and his invisible cape -

Trying to make heads and tails from this story I vacillate back and forth from taking it at face value as a fantasy with its only meaning, how the characters behave as a peek into the behavior of the middle ages since, the stories may have taken place earlier and are partly an oral tradition the authors are writing during the 12th to 15th century and they cannot escape their culture - plus, I am seeing an over-riding Christian influence that would not have been the mindset during the 6th century when most of this is supposed to have happened.

Some place I read this sharing of the story is happening at the start of Pentecost

The day of Pentecost is noted in the Christian Church as the day
on which the Spirit descended upon the apostles, and on which,
under Peter's preaching, so many thousands were converted in Jerusalem

Wikipedia says in essence -
"Christianity arrived in Wales sometime in the Roman occupation, but
it was initially suppressed. The first Christian martyrs in Wales was
about AD 304. By the end of the 4th century, Christianity became the sole
official religion of the Roman Empire.

As the Roman legions withdrew in the early 5th century, invading tribes
including the Christian Angles and Saxons, were unable to make inroads
except possibly along the Severn Valley as far as Llanidloes"

And so what has Pentecost got to do with all these damsels and a lion and a horse cut in half and invisibility and hail from water on a marble slab and and and...

Trying to decide if I want a copy of An Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols by J. C. Cooper for my kindle and downloaded a Sample - included in the sample is the word Animal  - a few bits that help me out with the story...
"Friendship with animals and ability to communicate with them symbolizes
the restoration of, and re-entry into, the paradisal state, the Golden Age.

Animals accompanying or helping man on quests depict the different aspects of
his own nature, or the instinctive and intuitive forces of nature as distinct from
the intellect, will and reason.

Animals which must be slain or tamed, in myth and legend, are man’s animal
instincts brought under control."

Then I turned to my book and looked up Horse - lots of symbolism so I looked at both Celtic and Christian -

Celtic particular forms of horses had a death
symbolism where as, the horse in general can be solar as
virility and fecundity 

Christian the horse is, Sun, Courage, generosity

--- and so those qualities are cut in half by a gate.

A Gate symbolizes communication between one world
and another, entry into a new life, associated with wisdom."

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2019, 04:48:41 PM »
Ah, so it might not be a real lion but represent maybe lionhearted? Brave, courageous, bold. Not sure about the horse, but the gate could represent a rite-of -passage type of thing considering the Christian symbolic take on gates.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2019, 04:56:53 PM »
That's what I am getting as well Frybabe - it is like the lesson or story starts with the dropping of the gate - need to check out the story again but it seems to me up till that point he is full of vim and vigor going after something and then his vim and vigor changes to a loyalty first to the lady and later to Arthur and then back to the lady - I wonder if the lady is a symbol for Mary - seems to me I read the cult to the Blessed Virgin Mary started in the middle ages... and so going back to Arthur is like a relapse from a life of Christian something or other... need to re-read and I've some things I need to get done - may carry this over into tomorrow with the new chapter actually starting tomorrow as well

We may at least have a key now to these stories - haha wait and see all we figured out for this one will have nothing to do with the next one - we shall see what we shall see...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2019, 04:59:46 PM »
Oh yes - decided to buy and download on my kindle the J.C. Cooper book on symbols - if for no other reason than it is so much easier to read when I can adjust the font and use a black background instead of the white - plus I had some credit because I chose to wait on a delivery of herbs that i use.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe