Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OCT. 14,2009-Feb.17,2020

[PatH]

Join us as we Read of Strife, Struggle, the Underworld, Chivalry and the Heroic in: Chapter by Chapter Each Week Starting Monday, October 14 We eavesdrop on the innermost thoughts, the mental inheritance, of mankind. ~ Translation by Lady Charlotte Guest The Mabinogion

Schedule

October 14.......The Lady of the Fountain October 28.......Peredur the Son of Evrawc November 11....Geraint the Son of Erbin November 18....Kilhwch and Olwen November 25....The Dream of Rhonabwy December 02....Pwyll Prince of Dyved

December 09....Branwen the Daughter of Llyr January 06.......Manawyddan the Son of Llyr January 13.......Math the Son of Mathonwy January 20.......The Dream of Maxen Wledig January 27.......The Story of Lludd and Llevelys February 04.....Taliesin

Discussion Leader: Barbara

[BarbStAubrey]

Thanks Pat for leaving space for the heading -

if she had been a peasant type person I can see her handing over anything - maybe there are ranks of power among ladies as well so that those of a lower rank have no power to refuse any request - also we may be using our own sense of polite behavior as a measure - as bad as it was for women maybe it was worse then we imagined - on the other hand the story wraps itself around the jewel and so maybe there were not oral editors and so being polite was overlooked in telling the tale.

That's some Mama he has... 

Hadn't thought of this as a coming of age but frybabe yes, it really fits doesn't it. 

Been clearing out and doing a bit of book organizing - I'm shocked at how many books I have about medieval literature aside from so many about Arthur and also about the Irish myths - then found several Icelandic Sagas - some I've read through but more where I started or read bits and pieces - seeing them all together like this makes me aware it would make a good reading focus.

 Back later - probably this evening.

[Frybabe]

They do seem to like him Pat.

I went cruising through my Ebook pile and discovered some books I forgot I had. Most or all  are from Project Gutenberg.

English Lands Letters and Kings from Celt to Tudor  by Donald G. Mitchell. This includes at least a mention of Mabinogion.

A Source Book for Mediaeval History: Selected Documents illustrating the History of Europe in the Middle Age (1905) by Oliver J. Thatcher, Ph.D and Edgar Holmes McNeal, Ph.D

Arthurian Chronicles: Roman de Brut by Wace

Footprints of Former Men in Far Cornwall by R. S. Hawker Edited with introduction by C. E. Byles. C. E. Byles wrote in his preface, "There is an element of fiction in Hawker's biographical studies. He never let facts, or the absence of them, stand in the way of his imagination, and he had a Chattertonian habit of passing off compositions of his own as ancient manuscripts."  While skimming, I did see mention of Uthur Pendragon. Chattertonian refers to Thomas Chatterton (1752-1770), poet. He committed suicide at age 17.

[PatH]

Barb, speaking of sagas, did you notice that the notes say Peredur's story has also been retold as a saga?  I looked for it in my favorite online saga source, but it's not there.

sagadb.org

It's a good source for a lot of sagas, but I guess Peredur is too obscure for them.

[Frybabe]

I am off on a search too PatH. It appears that Peredur is the Welsh version of Percival. https://www.nightbringer.se/a_peredur.html

And now, all of a sudden, I can't get Monty Python out of my head.

And here is what Sacredtexts has to say in their notes, when you get to it. https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab12.htm

[PatH]

I've been having trouble thinking of Peredur as Parsifal, but so be it.  The tale got worked over a lot after the early version we're reading.  Frybabe, Monty Python has now been replaced in my mind by a wonderful Parsifal I watched on TV eons ago, with Siegfried Jerusalem doing an amazing job, both of singing and acting, as Parsifal, especially during his "perfect fool" phase.  The staging was lavish and effective too, except for the Grail, which was huge, and looked kind of like an upside down Tiffany lampshade.

[BarbStAubrey]

The nightbringer website is by far one of the best - thanks frybabe - you are reminding me to pull out my Frances Child collection of ballads because there too - one story told in many ways or using different names - makes sense realizing the stories were passed down and often told to a group that I bet the story teller altered stories to get a better reaction from his listeners and before long the story was permanently altered while other's remembered the original so we have two stories. 

Looks like frybabe there is more than one Arthurian Chronicles - I also have a copy but by Hopkins and I've also the Arthur Companion by Karr - I'm telling you there are more books on the story of Arthur, explaining, assisting, indulging... I'm thinking there are more than there are written about Robin Hood and yet, there are far more Ballads about Robin Hood than Arthur or any of his knights - I'm thinking Arthur grew with time where as Robin Hood's story took on the test of time and remained pretty fixed so there was not a lot of room for speculation or interpretation. 

Aren't we reading in prose what was or rather is an epic poem or a long poem?

saw that Pat where the story is also written as one of the Saga's - do not think I have it and cannot find it available on Amazon. Wagner's version makes it really into an over the top Victorian melodrama of religious  fervor. 

Found it - here you go Pat - upside down Tiffany shade and all...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBvxf8tEKuw

[Frybabe]

Lovely, Barb. I have the music without the vocals on one of my old 33s. I even remember the cover. I did my own sketch of the statue on the cover eons ago. Never been one for opera, so never saw a production of it.


Caerllion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caerleon
I don't think I can add to what is posted in the Wikipedia article. Bummer, when I was in Cardiff, I never even knew this was nearby.  In fact, I don't think we saw any Roman sites on the entire trip. I was into Medieval sites back then but wasn't much acquainted with Arthur or his association with Wales. I followed up with reading about the Legion II Augusta and Gerald of Wales.

[PatH]

That's it, Barb, thanks.  1989, goodness, it was a while ago.  I'll have to look for more.  Jerusalem doesn't even open his mouth here.  Surely the real grail would be something rather simple?  Would you carry a silver chalice (or a Tiffany lamp) to an outdoor execution scene?

Frybabe, it's a real bummer when you realize you missed a chance like that.  Good article.

I wasn't much of an opera fan during the first part of my music listening career, but eventually came to appreciate it.  I haven't seen many live operas though, considering how many concerts I go to.

[BarbStAubrey]

another site I could spend hours with - Caerleon - like you frybabe when I visited Cardiff I had a limited knowledge of the Arthur connection to Wales and frankly was not even thinking a Roman connection - do remember visiting a recreated village that included old buildings brought to the site from all over Wales that pretty much depicted a 16th century village. I also remember being tired and not getting as much from the day - it was the end of a month long trip of researching old needlework in the basements and attics of museums all over Britain.

A side note - just went down memory lane - there is a short poem under the description for Mari Lwyd that includes a marble reference - I thought what in the world, clicked and sure enough there were all the names and games for marbles - I was in 3rd and in 4th grade when everyday walking home after school a student in my class lived on a street near the school - back then there were no sidewalks only dirt paths and several of us stopped to play a couple of games of marbles marking out the field on the dirt path using a nearby stick - winning the aggie was my goal and it took forever. Then, I did not want to part with it but the others said no fair so I had to play it - come to think of it - see it in my minds eye and it never occurred to me, I was the only girls - ah so...

Pat I can do Puccini, in fact most of the Italian and even French operas but the German Operas - still have not gotten there.

Been torn reading this week - grandsons are coming to stay with me Thursday through next Monday - they have tickets to Formula One - practice run on Friday and then the races are Saturday and Sunday with all kinds of star studded entertainment at night - and so I am getting ready - clearing out the guest room that ended up becoming the catch all room - finding things I forgot I had and other things I've been missing - whenever someone calls they are coming over I end up stuffing my projects etc in the guest room and so I've been sorting and clearing - this is one time when I could use an audio version to go back and hear the bit that is rolling around in my head.

[Frybabe]

Yes, Barb, St. Fagan's Folk Museum, which I believe is part of St. Fagan's National Museum of History. Wasn't it fabulous?

I am beginning to feel like I am in one of those quest game apps or video games. The challenges just keep coming and coming and coming. There are so many maidens who have professed they love him best, I've lost count, and I now I can't remember which one or (ones) he says he loves best of all. Peredur sure was a charmer.

[Frybabe]

Last night I was listening to Goldsworthy's How Rome Fell. Goldsworthy began and ended Chapter 19 with mentions of Arthur, but otherwise has nothing to say one way or the other whether Arthur existed, because of lack of definite historical evidence. He did state that there was a migration from Wales to what became Brittany (the reason for its name), possibly to get away from the Saxons. So, that strengthens the belief that some of these stories/personalities originated in Wales and became modified on the continent before returning to Wales. I had heard of the possible migration between Wales and Brittany, but I assumed that the migration originated from Brittany going to Wales, not the other way around.

Here is a timeline of Christianity in England if found. It begins with 180AD, but a BBC history says it came in with the Romans in the 1st Century as one of the cults the Romans and auxilliaries worshiped. Please note that in 450AD the pagan Saxons invaded. Again, this fits in with the beginnings of the Arthurian legends.  http://www.localhistories.org/christiantime.html

Oh, and this brings up a question. Was Percival originally a pagan? He has been refusing to speak to Christians for a while now, in the story. And Arthur and his Knights? He seems okay with talking to most of them. He already fought and avenged, one would think, Kai's bad behavior towards the dwarf pair, so what reason had he since then to not talk with Christians? Do I remember he made another promise to a lady? It is a strange promise. I wonder why hie picked that?  I think Percival just likes to fight. At least he is using it to gain obeisance or allegiance to Arthur.

[BarbStAubrey]

I think you are right about wanting to fight - it sure fits the personality of a young man in a hurry - and he sure seems to be in a hurry to make up for lost time which is how I think he sees his mother's protecting him from reality as a child.

I am as amazed as you are frybabe - never imagined people from Wales migrating to Brittany I wonder what kind of boats they used to cross the channel and if they knew there was land on the other side - I don't think you can see the continent from the eastern British shore.

MY gut says that the Christian influence came about as the story was retold after about the 11th century and then Gregory of Monmouth writes down the prevailing storyline in the 12th century however, I think it was actually de Troyes who first writes of Percival or no, it had to be Robert Boron since he brought to the stories Merlin and the Grail story - well it matters not who wrote it my thinking is the story took on a more Christian influence I'm thinking a century before these folks started to write down the stories - I would not be surprised if those re-educating the population to Christianity used these stories as a way to indoctrinate the Christian values that they could conceivably see behind and not too different than the pagan version. The early Christian Church was well known for using the local myths and legends in a new way to explain the new religion by piggy backing on the old. 

[Frybabe]

Barb, keep in mind that the migration was most likely to get away from the invading Saxons which began in earnest around 450AD. I found this site that should answer your question about the boats. http://dark-age-boats.co.uk/britishromanboats.php Scroll down to wooden hulls and there is an overhead sketch of a hull that reminds me very much like a row boat. So, an oversized row boat with sails?  The first mention of keels being used to stabilize ships was in the 6th century.

The Christian religion was the sole official religion in the Roman Empire by the 4th century. thanks, I believe, to Charlemagne. After the Romans left Britain, the invading Angles and Saxons had a very tough time trying to invade and subdue the Welsh. They made it as far as the Severn Valley but no further.  

[marmieone]

Sorry for not posting this last week.  I have taken the time to start Geraint and read aloud.  I can't begin to say how  wonderfully enchanting is this story! And to hear it spoken (except for stumbles over the Welsh) is pure joy! This is where all the detail comes in to focus in your mind.  I just settle in and let the story unfold.  At the outset, the crowned kings assembled and the lists of which church is for whom; the description of the fair-haired youth with his scarf of blue purple and golden apples at the corners-so many pictures in my mind.  Who needs movies?
   You can see it may be a month or so before I actually complete this story. But the oral reading is simply glorious. My next task, though, is to examine particular words (you can see that underlining and checking words must be done!). Bottom line - I love these stories! 

[PatH]

Marmieone, I'm glad you're enjoying the stories so much.  Barb picked a winner here.  There's a good reason these tales have lasted so long.

[Frybabe]

Oh gosh! I just watched a documentary called Beowulf and the Anglo-Saxons on Amazon. And for your entertainment and enlightenment I found it on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2hQufdwpZE   What? What? We're doing Arthur here. Oh, but this documentary does mention Arthur -- several times. In fact, both tales may have originated in the same area (Mercia), with Beowulf being a slightly younger tale. There was mention of the conflict between the Saxons and the Welsh, and the pagans and Christians, and how, like Arthur, may have represented a real person or amalgam of persons. I am going to have to watch this again Did we do Beowulf? .

[BarbStAubrey]

weil finally rigged something up to get back on line - the electricity in half the house is out - hopefully only a braker but we using a lot of electricity
today lots of cooking happening and lights on all over the house and my breaker box is nearly 60 years old - oh dear and always on the weekend - the boys are here so tomorrow we may be able to figure it out.   In the meantime we used our heads and now after a couple of hours we have the computer with lots of cords running off the electricity in the front of the house - with the computer out I had no phone service so we had to figure out something.

so glad to see you posting marmieone - audio - how fabulous - I did notice the links in the story to the annotations do not work on my kindle so I'm back to reading it on the link in the heading sacred whatever...

I'll have time to watch the video tomorrow after noon Frybabe looking forward to it.

Glad you're liking the stories Pat.

My gut says we are two weeks with this one as well - it is long and here we are at the end of the week already - I'm ok taking longer - the stories take awhile to settle in - the next story for chapter 3 is really short so we will move along - but lets see what happened and let me know please if you think we need more time on this one.

[Frybabe]

Barb I hope you find the video as interesting as I did. It gives a view of Saxon and Angle life around the same time the Arthur legend was forming. In fact, there is an earthenworks they show in the program called "Arthur's Dike" which I want to look into. So these two tales/societies abutted each other for a while between the withdrawal of the Roman's and the Norman invasion.

[Frybabe]

Well, now, I am definitely rewatch the program. Could I have misheard? There is no Arthur's Dyke in Mercia. There is Offa's Dyke. https://www.historyextra.com/period/anglo-saxon/a-brief-history-of-offas-dyke/ Same dyke, but Arthur's Dyke is a movie. So, if I heard right, what does that mean for the accuracy of the rest of the presentation?

[BarbStAubrey]

Grandsons here and we were swapping stories about Arthur - they were fascinated to learn what we are learning while reading and discussing this book - still have - get this - a video tape - yep, and I still have an old portable TV that plays them - analogue so only good for watching Tapes - not CDs but tapes - anyhow we watched LadyHawk - the closest thing to what we are reading and it includes all the magic and romance similar to a story in Mobinogion however, the evil one in LadyHawk is a Bishop so no fooling around it definitely is based in Christian mythology.

Found an old movie on Prime that is the story of Percival - after they leave I'll spend time watching it
https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B07MXQ1XHJ/ref=atv_wl_hom_c_unkc_1_1

And another that looks interesting Awaking Arthur - Traces the origins of the Arthurian Legends from megalithic times to the historical King Arthur and the modern renaissance of Celtic culture.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B078T3JNBD/ref=atv_wl_hom_c_unkc_1_4

Between my finds and frybabe, your finds I will be watching a marathon - fun to hear my one grandson sing the praises of these stories - he compares them to the what is available now and to him there is no comparison - he sees the new are only good versus bad with no nuance or deeper meaning.

Hmm now that is new frybabe - had not heard of Arthur's Dyke - learning so much reading this book...

[Frybabe]

Thanks, Barb, just in time for the weekend. Another excuse to sit and watch TV with Lucy, who has taken quite an interest in watching with my lately.

[BarbStAubrey]

Frybabe so you had Lucy and I had the two men/grandboys - we watched PBS last night - they leave today and I can get back into our story - still have not read the entire chapter - need to finish reading so I can share the bits that hit me as interesting or new information.

Voting here tomorrow - big decisions about the city are included on the Ballot - never knew the importance of one judge over the other - in fact I need a tutorial as to what the jobs are responsible for and how they affect me as a citizen. Started to look it up and found so many courts that it was overwhelming - federal and state and district and could not figure out where city court comes in since I know when you get a traffic ticket the judge in the police station is a city judge - what else does a city judge do.

Now that we have this justice system comparing it to the time in history that we are reading about when the leader of the band or the king was judge and jury I have to wonder if we are really that much better off - seems to be there are rules and you follow them or not and then someone comes down on you if you do not follow them.

I also need to get straight now the time line - got when the Romans left but I want to trace when and where the Normans, the Saxons, oh yes, and the Celts arrived. And what were the Welsh... were they of the Celts? That was interesting to learn they crossed the width of England and go back to the continent - I don't remember reading why. I've noticed that any Welshman I've ever seen always has dark almost black hair where as in Ireland and Scotland there are more towheads and redheads which I bet came from the Vikings but could have come from the Saxons given they were mostly living in Northern Europe - I wonder if the Spanish invaded at one time?

Ok till later - need to get these boys on the road.

[Frybabe]

[size=12pt  AMENDED: ]Barb, I watched the Percival film  yesterday. Some of the narration pretty much followed our story, other bits changed the narrative slightly, some was left out or skimmed over, and some must have come from another story altogether. The Challis quest played a more prominent part in the film. I haven't watched Awaking Arthur yet, primarily because I couldn't remember the name.

I see you posted before I corrected my post.  [/size]

[Frybabe]

It appears that the Holy Grail first appeared in written text by Chrétien de Troyes in his Perceval.  The first mention of King Arthur can be traced back to the Welsh monk, Nennius in the 9th century, although the Awaking Arthur documentary tries its darndest to trace him and Merlin way farther back, possibly into the stone age.  By the way, I only watched about half of it. I don't envy job the scholars have to disentangle these stories and their add-ons and changes to get to the origins. Seems nigh on impossible to me.

Nennius is also attributed to being the first to write down the use of the Welsh flag as a symbol of Wales. The Welsh most certainly would have seen the dragon symbol on Roman Standards.   Roman Cavalry began adopting Draco (the Dragon of mythology) after the Dacian Wars from whence they got the idea, and Constantine the Great (died
 337AD) used a purple dragon for his standard according to Stephen Dando-Collins. From Trajan's Column  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_Draco#/media/File:Dacian_Draco_on_Trajan's_Column_2.jpg  But then weren't the Celts also using dragon or dragon-like designs?

Well, I am wondering if these snakes that Percival keeps slaying might have been dragons? Oh, and another legend. St. George and the Dragon. St. George died in 303AD. 

[BarbStAubrey]

looks like frybabe we are both trying to untangle something about the particulars of these stories - I'm back to the bit on the sword and in the process found a couple of good sites - but in particular what is a staple?

Now, there was on the floor of the hall a huge staple, as large as a warrior could grasp. "Take yonder sword," said the man to Peredur, "and strike the iron staple." So Peredur arose and struck the staple, so that he cut it in two; and the sword broke into two parts also.

I think I've discovered breaking the sword into parts has to do with the kind of sword can be identified by the number of parts -this 3 part sword from what I'm reading refers to a larger early sword - it is not breaking the cutting part into parts but rather the sword has parts and my thinking is the sword in braking along those parts which my guess is the swords are not caste all of one piece but each part is sorta welded together to form a sword - still cannot find anything that says what a large iron staple could be - at first I thought it was an expression for the sword but if the sword is striking it - but then it breaks equal as the sword - at first I thought the 3 parts was symbolic but after reading tons I can see there are basic 3 parts to a sword

Here are a couple of good sites that explain swords, warfare, knights and other medieval life

http://www.medieval-life-and-times.info/medieval-weapons/

http://www.medievalwarfare.info/

And this one is fabulous - does include information about Japanese, Chinese and Philipino swardsmenship and swards that I breezed over but this is as full a site as I found explaining the equipment, the various cuts, the body movement, you name it - it is all here
https://web.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/Available/E-project-050414-140327/unrestricted/Full_Project.pdf

I'm also wondering if he was using a Pollaxes to drag around the first knight... here is the definition.

Pollaxes – Three Weapons in one

Polleaxe weapons were usually used on foot and were really a combination of three weapons in one unit. A Pollaxe was usually around 2 m in length and were capable of punching through plate armour. There were a lot of options available to medieval Knights with this weapon.

A Pollaxe was usually a long wooden pole with a hammer and axe on one side that could be used for punching holes in plate armour, spikes on the tip could be used in a similar way to a spear. Pollaxe weapons also had spikes that will could be used to drag other Knights from their horses and were very useful for fighting on the ground.

Another bit Early Medieval Europe - This era was mostly influenced by the military culture which was left as a Roman legacy in the wake of the Roman Empire’s collapse.

As a result, many weapons used in the early medieval period closely resembled those used by the Roman armies.

However, there were distinctly new weapons in use as well such as the knightly sword, different varieties of axes as well as many new pole-arms which were useful in countering the increasingly decisive cavalry units on the battlefield.

[BarbStAubrey]

I'm thinking deserts are forests - what do you think?

[BarbStAubrey]

Found this - I'm really not taken by Peredur -

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/p/percival.htm

I rushed through this so fast since my grandsons were arriving and only now really reading it - I wonder why there is so much repetition - it is as if each encounter starts out with the exact wording of a previous encounter - has anyone run into an explanation 

[Frybabe]

I am trying to find a map that shows a reasonable semblance to Britain right around the time the Romans left and found these to that might help. https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/BritishMapAD43-425.htm Click on the numbers at the top to see the territory changes over the years from 43AD to 425AD. Notice particularly how the territories broke up into smaller kingdoms as the Romans left. Ebrauc is the Roman Eboracum which eventually became York. In that area we meet up with Mor ap Ceneu known as the last "King of the Britons" and "Chief of Dragons" who had a son, Arthurius (one of our King Arthur candidates).

So, while the Mabinogion were tales first translated from the Welsh oral histories, it appears they had a more far ranging Celtic origin. Notice that the Celtic names in other parts of England were similar to Welsh which, because it was difficult to conquer, retained much of its' Celtic language and heritage. The Arthur we know today is likely to be a composite of several early warlords. https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsBritain/BritainEbrauc.htm  The same, it seems for Peredur. Scroll down below the photos and you will find Peredyr Arueu Dur and mention of Merlin (Myrddin Wyllt) who was a court bard. Interesting, another storyteller. But wait, there is another Merlin somewhere. I'll have to look him up.


This is probably going to be as close as I can get to what a staple is/was. http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/objects/6Iu6tlZyRD-7qNwtmV3gyA The word was used to refer to the system of trade and taxation as a whole, so I started looking for possible instruments of weights and measures and came up with the lead seal. Another thing to research further.

Today is our Welsh Society meeting. A good excuse to socialize and eat out.

[PatH]

Enjoy your collops, Frybabe.

[PatH]

How am I going to get through my mountain of chores if you two keep throwing so much interesting stuff at me?

Barb, I haven't read the sword material yet, but that's a topic I like.  Peredur doesn't seem attached to his equipment, but swords are important characters in myth or legend, with names and characteristics of their own.  Roland's sword Durendal managed to hide after his owner was killed, in order not to be taken and used by the unworthy saracens.  (That's kind of ironic when you realize that the saracens made the best swords.)  Arthur has Excalibur, which he pulled from the stone, and after his death, Excalibur is thrown back into the lake to await Arthur's return.

Reforging a broken sword is an important symbolic act.  Siegfried takes a lot of gorgeous music to reforge his father's sword Nothung.  In The Lord of the Rings, Aragorn has the shards of Narsil reforged (he's not a blacksmith like Siegfried, so he has to outsource) and renames it Anduril.  We even have a scene in Moby-Dick where Ahab reforges his harpoon, dedicating it to killing the whale.  He doesn't rename it, but he quenches the hot steel in blood.

[BarbStAubrey]

Pat what in the world are you doing that keeps you from fully enjoying the discussion - are you clearing out and packing? If so I know how that goes - been clearing and clearing and would have to do tons more if I were moving.

The use of a given name seems to be how many 'things' were a statement of ownership - and yes, maybe that is the aspect I was picking up with Peredur - he does not seem to take ownership of horses either - maybe that is part of his persona - he is supposed to have borrowed or won everything he uses having come with very little, not even a sword from where his mother raised him.  However reading there is something that says I have earned my place when they name their horses and equipment - hmm thinking on it naming was an issue in Ladyhawk when Phillipe Gaston names Isabeau, Ladyhawk after the sunrise when she turns into a hawk.

After looking at the maps frybabe I only see now how each is fully explained below - need to spend time going back and putting it together.

In one of the recent sites that I found there was something that said Kings only had power after they had an army and gunfire battles were fought rather than combat between knights - no longer using combat by sword most thought was a disgrace since with the loss of sword battle was also the loss of 'contracts' of behavior before a battle and the loss of a man building his esteem and reputation. Evidently the army of men using swords and other hand held weapons were serving a local castle that housed the leader of an area rather than serving a king - with that I thought the story of Robin Hood and Maid Marian had new meaning - I bet the king was trying to assert power he did not have and Robin Hood was trying to prevent the transfer of power.  At any rate it tells me more about why the unified Romans plucked off one leader at a time. They never had an entire kingdom to fight except probably Wales that had strong leaders that controlled large swaths of land rather than miles around a castle where peasants could flock in for safety. - Looks like the Romans never really got a foothold in Scotland - with the Irish not conquered and knowing how most Irish had their roots in Scotland maybe there was a common approach that the Romans could not crack.

Well frybabe you sure got further with the staple being something involving trade - all I got was information about iron or a staple being mostly foodstuff and of course the modern staple to attach papers together - not even a staple used to attach wood together that at least I know that much - whatever it was it could be broken by a sword.  This is when we see the annotations only cover places and people.

[BarbStAubrey]

Frybabe did you catch in Awaking Arthur that the round table was Guenevere's dowry and that the table was made by Merlin - I also had not realized till is saw the film that Arthur was fighting the Saxons. Now that dates it doesn't it...

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh good grief - If I just read the annotations the staple is explained

"89a STAPLE. --Page 89. THIS was, probably, a staple for fastening horses to, as it is well known that the horses were often brought into the hall among the guests. In the account of the thirteen rarities of the Island of Britain, as enumerated in an unpublished MS. in the possession of Mr. Justice Bosanquet, it is said that one chieftain had the staple for holding his horse at the foot of his bed. "The halter of Clydno Eiddyn, which was in a staple below the feet of his bed; and whatever horse he wished for in it, he would find there."

don Pedro, king of Spain and lords de la Marche, de Beaujeu, and don Henry de Trastamare, were all living in the early 14th century and yet, in the story Arthur from the 5th or 6th century is whom Peredur is proving his worth - this entire story makes no sense to me - he repeats virtually the same slaying and sitting with a maiden over and over again with just a bit of a twist to each slaying and each encounter, there are black men and gray men big men and dwarfs - I suppose I could look up for each encounter the symbols to better understand but it seems like overkill - enough - lots of words, lots of pages and cannot tell heads or tails from any of it - how did y'all do - did you get more out of this then I did?

Reminded me of a 1000 and One Nights but more boring as if a new tale had to be conjured with the same format as the earlier story to pass a long snowed in winter. There are so many 3s from 3 paths to the very end and the 3 encounters with the sorceress and in addition the story does include some direct references to Christianity.

For me I suffered through reading this chapter and ready for a few movies about the Saxons who Arthur was fighting. So far found several about the Celts but only something about Beowulf that is the closest to anything about the Saxons. 

Found this series about Celtic Myths
https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B07D44VMP7/ref=atv_wl_hom_c_unkc_1_37

and this one looks really interesting The Enigma of the Celtic Tomb
https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B075H6RGV1/ref=atv_wl_hom_c_unkc_1_25

[Frybabe]

I didn't get to the Round Table part, Barb. I got a bit impatient or irritated with it, but maybe I just was a bit tired. I may finish it today. The :Peredur story is a bit tedious to read after a while. I wonder if the translator put together a string of separate tales about Peredur. Peredur may have been a popular subject for tales way back when.

The meeting yesterday was a bit "sloppy". We had the opening Pledge of Allegiance to our flag and a short presentation by one of the gals that was essentially items of memorabilia and old news clippings and booklets. My sister was not asked to read the minutes of the previous meeting, which apparently isn't always done (surprise to me, but she sends the minutes out in an email a week or so before the meeting), and the President closed the meeting with the ending prayer without asking if any one had any business to bring up. If she had done the last, I would have said another word or two about our readings and research. With such a long time, small group, I think meeting protocol is a bit lax. December 7 will be our Christmas Luncheon. There will be a Cellist for entertainment. Next year, probably in August, the National Welsh Festival will be held in Philadelphia. I don't have details yet.

[BarbStAubrey]

hmm Frybabe sounds like the group needs a new initiative to get things going, it sounds like they are almost at the point of a coffee klatch without acknowledging it and trying to keep up pretenses.

[Frybabe]

Exactly, Barb. They all have been together so long, i don't know if Sue and I can change much without upsetting them. One of the things Sue mentioned to me is that the club meets at 11am rather than in the evening. That pretty much eliminates most of the younger set because they are still working. The younger set is farther away from the basic reasons the club was formed 65 years ago. I assume that since it isn't much older, it was populated by mostly war brides. The grands and great grands may be more interested in genealogy, re-connecting with "lost" relatives, Celtic history and lore and music. Anyway, there were a few brochures that got passed around to pin to bulletin boards and pass around, but not many. We did get one gal who came when she saw a notice in the paper. She wasn't to this meeting, but had said she would be to the next. I don't know if anyone got her email or phone number to remind her. Sue doesn't have it. There is no newsletter, printed or email. The person who was going to do that backed out I think there is one Director's meeting a year and no working committees. Not surprisingly, there are only a few that hold club positions year after year, and they are mostly burned out. Oh, a nice touch, we have a club chaplain.

I have some housework to finish up then it will be back to Peredur, et. al.

[BarbStAubrey]

Wow sounds like the passing of a generation - and not too different from our Senior Learn group - as they pass they are not replaced and I hate to loose the in-depth discovery we do when we read just to say we read and discussed one more book. Younger women do read but they seem to be intent in sharing a common viewpoint about a book rather than exploring the many viewpoints and many different connections one book can provide. Ah so... it is what it is and I can be grateful there are still a few of us left who want to delve into what a book and its story has to offer.

As to this chapter/story - it does seem like several stories combined - looking at Cliff notes for the book of the Holy Grail by Thomas Malory - already I can see the stories in the chapter 'the Miracles' are included as well as the stories of 'Sir Percival' - in this Welsh version we do not hear that he is going after the Holy Grail but rather it seems he is about getting rid of the evil in others and in the world. And yes, I can see many of the encounters with women are his 40 days fasting in the desert.

The only part of these old stories that keeps them a fantasy for me is the concept of a fire breathing dragon or a red, white or whatever color dragon - what animal could have appeared as a dragon in the 6th and 7th century that seemed feasible to write about in all seriousness in the 11th and later centuries.     

[Frybabe]

Speaking of getting rid of evil,  did you notice (I forget where exactly, but in the first half of the story) Peredur feels some remorse for having killed a person by mistake, and some regret for having to kill others that did not mend their ways.

[BarbStAubrey]

Yep, said to me when we are trying to do God's will we are only human and not perfect - and then I thought how a one on one killing today would be handled however, I had to take a double look because this was combat and like today we do not punish soldiers for killing the enemy - and like it or not the Church at the time saw anyone not obeying their rule as the enemy - easily done as a king would believe his laws were to be obeyed without question so the church at that time was a ruling political body and so I saw Peredur as a soldier for the church assuring their values were honored and practiced by all those he came in contact with - what was disturbing to me is that not only in these stories is Satan's reps the women but the entire Arthur premise of cracking wide the unity and glory of the round table was Guenevere and Lancelot's fault, again the woman is to blame for evil in the best of situations.

Christianity is not the only push towards women being the fault of evil. I received the bit we are discussing this week with my Tao group and there too the Ying and Yang has the dark being female and saying in the Tao verse we prefer the light - Instead of fighting evil, I am thinking we will get further when we accept it exists and realize everything and everybody has both good and what we call bad -

We all think peace is the goal and I wonder - war has been around since the beginning of men fighting each other for dominance over another, the land or how we think and of course our behavior - or there would not be so many books about warfare and strategy for war that go back thousands of years. Appears to me war is just one more jousting match as Peredur shows and if you are engaged then do it well - the outcome seems horrible but then when I was a kid I learned that we eat animals and plants also have a life that we eat - just really thinking outloud here - because for a hero he does a lot of poking and slicing and whacking to death folks who challenge his concept of right and wrong.