Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online

[marjifay]

The Woman Behind the New Deal:      The Life of Frances Perkins,           FDR'S Secretary of Labor and His Moral Conscience                by Kirstin  Downey Links: Frances Perkins Center Frances Perkins, Dept. of Labor Jane Addams [Frances Perkins Speech

Discussion August   l -  8     August  9 - 15   August 16 - 22     August 23 - 31

Schedule Chapters 1-9 Chapters 10-18 Chapters 19-27 Chapters 28-38

FOR CONSIDERATION

Was FP successful in her appointment to the Industrial Commission and in her later promotion to active management ?

What are your remembrances of AL Smith and the causes of his 1928 election defeat?

What were the causes of his defeat by Herbert Hoover?

What was the reasons for the break between Al Smith and FDR during the four years preceding the 1932 election when FDR won the Presidency?

What were FP’s terms for  accepting the position of Secretary of Labor?

What particular skeletons did Frances find in the Labor Department’s closet when she took power?

What is your opinion of Frances’s administration of immigration that led to a congressional impeachment proceeding to remove her from office?

What was FDR’s reaction to the impeachment charge and how did Frances defend against the charges?

How did the Roosevelt Administration view the causes and the remedies of the great 1930’s depression?

What did the President of the AF of L, William Green think about the President’s selection of FP for the Labor post?

What are your thoughts on the almost automatic Senate confirmation without hearings of all the President’s Cabinet nominations?

What was FP’s experience at the Inauguration and her arrival at the office for her first day on her job?

______________________________
Discussion Leaders:   Ella and Harold

Sorry, I haven't been able to read the book.  But I have a question:
How did the Roosevelts pronounce their name?  I heard part of a BookTV book review this morning by Peter Schiff, and he kept pronouncing FDR's name as though it were spelled Rusevelt (as in Rude).  It irritated me as I'd always heard it pronounced to rhyme with rose as if spelled Rosevelt.
Am I wrong?

Marj

[Jonathan]

My guess would be that both pronunciations are acceptable. It reminds me of the problem some people have with pronouncing tomato.

Mrs Perkins goes to Washington. A risk taker, was she? How about the tough choices? She was loyal to Al Smith, until FDR came along. When the two had a falling out, Perkins went with the winner. Now, if Smith had won in 1928, is there any doubt that Perkins would have gone to Washington with him? It's mind boggling to think what that might have done for the country. No New Deal? A different deal?

These next chapters really capture the excitement of party and personal politics.

[marjifay]

I just wondered if anyone knew how the Roosevelts themselves pronounced their name.  Altho' other people may have done so, I doubt that the Roosevelts found either pronounciation acceptable, Jonathan.

Marj

[Ella Gibbons]

I've had a busy, tiring day, but will return tomorrow!  Thanks for all your remarks.

I did want to post this from KIRSTIN DOWNEY:

"Hi Ella...I will respond in a day or two. The website was down when I tried to get in last night and I am very busy today. But I love your questions and you will hear from  me very shortly!
 
Best regards,  Kirstin

If any of you have a question for Kirstin, please post it in the discussion, bold it and she will be reply! 

Isn't it great to have the author responding?

[HaroldArnold]

Mar j I’ve definitely heard the name Roosevelt pronounced both ways.  Jonathan is probably right in his thinking that both ways can be considered correct.  I wonder which way the family preferred.

Ella I will have additional focus question relative to chapters 10 through 18.  I will try to forward these to you tomorrow for inclusion in the heading.

[HaroldArnold]

Regarding my previous knowledge of Al Smith, he was always a nebulous shadow of a figure.  I never really remember studying him in any detail in any of the American history courses I took in either high school or college.  Of course there was much mention of Al Smith’s Catholic religion as the cause of his 1928 defeat by Herbert Hoover during the 1960 election campaign.  As we read in our current book it would appear that the KKK and other groups used this religious issue in the campaign against Smith leading to his defeat.  In 1960 the KKK was still around, but I believe it was much more powerful in the 1920’s.  I understand it had even gained some strength outside the south.  It was still active in 1960 but it was not the force it was 32 years earlier, and this issue did not prevent Kennedy’s election.

Regarding The Smith-Roosevelt break, to me the causes seem vague and unimportant.  FDR was elected as N.Y. Governor  in 1928 replacing Smith who had vacated that office to run for President.  One of the apparent causes was FDR’ decision not to carry over the employment of several  N.Y. officials who had served during the Smith Administration.  FDR rejected both of these.  One was Belle Moskowitz who had been a top staff adviser (Chief of Staff) to Al Smith.  Eleanor who had been a close friend of Moskowitz advise FDR not to accept her.  FDR appears to have wanted Frances’s advice, but this time Frances seems to have backed away from any firm recommendation.  In any case FDR did not reappoint Moskowitz. 

Yet this doesn’t seem any real cause of the break between the two former friends.   Perhaps it was more the result of Smith’s apparent bitterness emerging after his 1928 defeat.  Though at the 1932 Democrat Convention both Smith and FDR entered the convention as possible candidates FDR emerged with the prize.  A later analogous example is one, Richard M. Nixon, who after his 1960 defeat by JFK first bitterly left politics telling the press “you won’t have old Dick Nixon to kick around anymore.  Yet he made a comeback after overcoming his initial bitterness and even after defeat in a race for Governor in California, he won the Republican nomination and the presidency in 1968.  But that’s another story.

[Jonathan]

Whatever became of Belle Moskowitz, that friend of Frances Perkins and crony, it seems, of Al Smith. She seems to disappear after FDR takes over as governor, and seems to disappear from FP's life. Once good friends. A great deal about her in Chap10, and then nothing.

We learn in Chap10 that FP had introduced Moskowitz to Smith, after which M had soon become Governor Smith's key aide. 'Moskowitz was an organizational genius who brainstormed, wrote speeches, and coordinated matters big and small.' p76

I find it interesting to meet Moskowitz again in ths Perkins biography. I first met her in Robert Caro's biography of Robert Moses, THE POWER BROKER. Caro can't say enough about her, '...all but unknown to the public but an almost legendary figure among politicians, she would be possessed of more power and influence than any woman in the United States.'

She brought Moses to Albany in 1919 and taught him all he knew about government. Caro even hints at the possibility that Moskowitz may have helped Perkins to the Industrial Commission job in 1918. I'm struck by all the networking among women activists and reformers in the book we are reading. I looked for Moskowitz at the testimonial dinner to FP at the Commodore in the spring of 1933, with its 800 invited guests. But Belle M is not mentioned.

Her disappearance from the political scene must have been Eleanor R's doing. She strongly advised FDR not to keep Moskowitz around, lest she soon run his whole administration. But now I also see, on page 98, that Louis Howe, that most loyal mentor and assistant to FDR,  'also opposed  Moskowitz, seeing her as a rival.' 'Moskowitz despised Howe; Howe detested Moskowitz.' same page.

By then FP was at the center of all this, picking her way very carefully, no doubt, as Harold also suggests.

[Ella Gibbons]

Isn't this all interesting!  A bit of back-door gossiping -  who had the power, who got the job and why!  Politics, my friends, eh?

Well, perhaps some of this comes from FP's book, THE ROOSEVELT I KNOW; she devotes quite a few pages to the problems between these two men.  Al Smith had been an outstanding governor of New York, respected and admired.  Wise.  But when it came to voting for a Smith as president, a Catholic, they backed off.  

After days of regret and sadness, Smith felt it was his duty to help FDR become a good governor and he made recommendations, few of which FDR instigated, particularly the Moskowitz and Caro appointments.  

FP states:  "If Governor Al could only have realized that Roosevelt, because he had been a sick man, needed more than most men to demonstrate that he could and would do it alone, he would not have attempted to handle him by remote control."

So, from this, we can assume that due to FDR's decisions Moskowitz and Caro disappeared from the political scene.

That took courage, I think.  Wouldn't most people want experienced personnel around them to help them become acquainted with a new job?  At least, until they got their feet wet and then they could have fired them.  But FDR was going to make it alone or not!!!

------------------------------------------

But back to FP as a member of the Industrial Commission of New York, a highly-paid job, perhaps the top paid female in the United States,  (Chapter 10) which started FP off on a career to the top!

Al Smith!  Governor of NEw York.  He would make a good subject for a biography, don't you think?  There's not much about him on the Internet. And to reward FP for her help in his election campaign, she gets a job.

And  a boss, John Mitchel, a popular union leader.  I smiled when I read -

"To bolster her nerve, she bought a new dress." (pg.79)

Only women would understand that!

But wasn't FP brave to meet with the strikers in Rome, PA who met her car with rocks!  And she, with diplomatic efforts, managed to quell the strike and satisfy both employers and employees. (pgs. 82-83)

And hints of a romance between boss and FP!  Well, well!

And more political maneuvering when we read of the "mothball wife."  (87)  No doubt there is a lot of that going on all the time.

[Kirstin Downey]

Hi, friends and readers.....

The Harry Truman comment was interesting, and you'll see more on this soon...Yes, when he first became president he wrote in notes to himself, when he was deciding who to keep in the Cabinet and who to dismiss, that he thought Frances Perkins, while a "great lady," lacked political sense. He dropped her from the Cabinet..But wait a few more chapters, and you will see what he thought later, and what happened.

Someone asked if I preferred the writing or the research, and I would say I prefer the research, hands-down! The writing is hard work while the research is like fun detective sleuthing. And many of the archives are quite beautiful and peaceful, in lovely campus settings.

I became obsessive about the research because I have been terrified that I would miss something important. The big horror story to me was the excellent biography of Charles Lindbergh that failed to detect he had a secret German family. That fact sheds new light on everything he said and did in regard to Europe....My book has been out since March, and so far, so good.

[HaroldArnold]

Additional Focus questions for discussion relative to Chapters 10 – 18.

Discuss Frances’s management of the Labor Department.  What particular skeletons did Frances find in the Labor Department’s closet when she took power?  What is your opinion of Frances’s administration of immigration that led to a congressional impeachment proceeding to remove her from office?  What was FDR’s reaction to the impeachment charge and how did Frances defend against the charges?

How did the Roosevelt Administration view the causes and the remedies of the great 1930’s depression?   Discuss specific Governmental remedies; short term relief of immediate symptoms (put people to work, CCC, Bank holiday etc), long term- correct underlying economic system defects.  What role did the Congress play? Legislation.  What was the role of the Supreme Court?

Discuss FDR’s governance style in particular what was the cabinet’s role in the executive decision making process?  What was the role of the Cabinet regularly meeting to advise the President on key issues?  Have recent Presidents changed this procedure?  Comment on Frances’s role in these meetings and what did other cabinet ministers think about Frances’s particular position with the President?

Discuss Frances’s social life in Washington during her 12 year term as Secretary of labor. Where, and with whom did she live?  Where were her husband and daughter?   How did her lifestyle differ from other male cabinet officials?

[Ella Gibbons]

KIRSTIN!  

How delightful to read your post.  THANK YOU FOR ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS!

And, as you prefer research, we all urge you to do more.  Another book must follow this one and, hopefully, it won't take 10 years!!!

You've done such an excellent job on the Perkins book and even though it may have been tough writing, it's a great book to read and discuss.  

JONATHAN, I noticed you mentioned the Caro book about Moses, that huge, heavy book.  I'm looking at ait now on my book shelves and I must confess I've never opened it.  

However, I looked in the Index and there are a number of references to FP, one of which is a story in which she attempted to stop him from building bath houses on Long Island because he was not using union labor.  Being on the "most intimate of personal terms" she called him up to tell him to stop saying - "naughty, naughty, you can't do that,......"   He just gave her the devil, so she said, and continued.  By the time all the elements of the law were invoked, the bath houses had been built.

It's an amusing story.

[HaroldArnold]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belle_Moskowitz  this link is a Bio sketch of Belle Moskowitz.  One reason we did not hear more about her during the 1930's is that she died in Jan 2, 1933.

Regarding Robert Caro's biographies.  His mult-volume LBJ Biography the is also very detailed.  Our Ginny gave me this volume several years back after her visit to San Antonio when I took her and a friend on a tour of the Institute of Texan Cultures and The San Antonio Missions National Historical Park.  Thank you Ginny!  This book has been a valuable research tool in several of our subsequent nonfiction discussions.

[straudetwo]

My book is here at last  and I will immerse myself in it directly.  My apologies for being late.
Traude

[Jonathan]

I would like to ask the author, Kirstin Downey, if she found Frances Perkins a very elusive subject. The question came to mind when I read this on page 104:

'Sometime during this period Frances made yet another adjustment to her public identity. She had already changed her name, her religion, and her appearance. Now she started presenting herself as a Boston Brahmin....'

Traude, you're coming into the discussion at a very opportune time. Can you tell us something about the characteristics of a Boston Brahmin?

Thanks, Harold, for the information about Belle Moskowitz. She could not have been at the testimonial dinner, since she had died a month or two earlier.

I would like to compliment Kirstin on her very entertaining and very informative book. What a remarkable woman she has found in Frances Perkins, this woman who, as she tells us, 'conducted her life behind a veil,' with very few personal tales. On the other hand, when it came to public affairs, or even the lives of others, FP seems to have been uninhibited in her curiosity and her volubility in searching out the secrets of human nature and society at large. And what a preoccupation with relationships.

What fine executive and administrative abilities Perkins had developed by the time she went for that all-important appointment with the president-elect on the prospect of heading up the Labor Department in the new cabinet. Her competence and savvy are so well illustrated in the pages that follow that succinct statement on page 120:

'Then she proceeded to lay out her dramatic plan of action.'

Ella, we're thrown a curve in the thickening plot. There are two John Mitchel(l)s in the book. His boss and her boss. The John Mitchel who fell out of the aeroplane, and the John Mitchell who came up out of the coal mines. Paul went to pieces over Mitchel's failure as a politician. Frances, I get the impression, set out immediately to get her Mitchell's job.

Does Frances Perkins remind anyone of Margaret Thatcher?

[Ella Gibbons]

We are missing a few!

Where are you, PAT, JOAN, JEAN, BELLEMARIE, EVELYN, SHEILA.  Who am I leaving out?

We would love to hear from all of you

WELCOME TRAUDE!

JONATHAN, I have copied your question and will wait until I get one or two more and then email them to Kirstin if she doesn't come in and answer it.  Will you bold it in red so, perhaps, she can see it if she is around??

Yes, Jonathan, two Mitchels here.  But John Mitchel, head of the Industrial Commission knew labor; had been a coal miner at the age of 13, president of the UMW (United MIne Workers)and he was very skeptical of her appointment to the Commission. She had to win him over and eventually did.  But he was ill much of the time and FP had to take over, running the commission smoothly, it seems.

The strike in Rome, NEw York is interesting in that the owners of a copper factory turned to immigrant labor who worked for lower pay, creating tensions between the locals who worked there for years. (pg.81)

Doesn't that resonate with some conditions today?  Immigrant workers?  Or does the factory today just move to another country to get cheaper labor?

I remember strikes!  And more strikes!  Do you?  The UAW (United Auto Workers), the miners who had to work under atrocious circumstances.

We still have unions don't we?

But I believe that Honda and Toyota do not employ union members, am I correct?

[mabel1015j]

Ella - i've been peeking in everyday, but since Weds, i've been spending most of everyday w/ my new-mother-DIL and my new grandson. It's their first child and her family is not here, so i've been their moral support and cheerleader.

You are right, Toyoto and Honda do not have unions, but having unions in our domesticate auto manufacturers keeps the Japanese companies honest, even if they don't pay quite as much as GM, etc. But the Japanese have also had a history of taking better care of their employees than companies in the U.S. have done only w/ pressure from the unions. ................jean

[bellamarie]

I am extremely confused.  I just realized that my book has ONLY nine chapters in it.  Can someone help me with how I am to know how far to read since I am not able to follow the break down of the assignments above?

[bellamarie]

Ella Gibbons,

But back to FP as a member of the Industrial Commission of New York, a highly-paid job, perhaps the top paid female in the United States

Yes, indeed I was shocked to see that FP was considered a "top paid female", for this postion back in 1919 it was $8,000  a year (about $90,000 in 1998).  That is a hefty sum.

[bellamarie]

Congratulations Mabel on your new grandson!  How wonderful of you to be there for your DIL.  Oh the rewards you reap to spend this precious time with them.

[bellamarie]

Oh dear I do believe I may have ordered the wrong book.  My author is Naomi Pasachoff.  The title is "Frances Perkins  Champion of the New Deal"  Kristen I am so very sorry.  It appears my author has written almost exactly the same as your book, since I have been able to follow along and not missed anything as yet.  I will do my best to continue with the discussion if that is okay with everyone.  My, my how did I do this??

[JoanK]

BELLAMARIE: on dear! But it's our gain, since you can compare the two books.

What a lot of detail we know about the conversation between FP and Roosevelt, when they talked about her nomination.

QUESTION FOR kIRSTEN: Did Perkins supply the details of her conversation with FDR in her book?

I had to laugh at her experiences during the inaugeration. One sentance, especially (p.132) "Washington traffic was the first of many indignities she would suffer from not knowing the rules in the nation's capital." Having lived most of my life in the nation's capital most of my life, I would love to know what rules would enable me to avoid Washington traffic!!!

But of course it wasn't funny to FP. All of these mixups and adventures must have really emphasized her feelings of being an outsider.

[HaroldArnold]

Margart Thatcher- Frances Perkins Compared.

Does Frances Perkins remind anyone of Margaret Thatcher? Jonathon asks an interesting question.  I suppose there are some similarities but there are also big differences between Margaret Thatcher’s position in England as Chief of Government and Frances’s position in the U.S. as Secretary of Labor.  In England Margaret Thatcher wielded power directly with the very broad decision making powers of the Chief of Government; in the U.S. Frances’s direct power was limited to her labor Department.  To the extent that she exerted broader power in other areas it was though her advisory position in the Cabinet.  In this capacity our book has shown that Frances’s advise was often followed by FDR, but the ultimate decision was FDR’s, not Frances’s.  As President FDR exercised the power of Chief of Government that Margaret Thatcher exercised in England.  I suppose that I should also add the in the U.S FDR in adddition to being Chief of Government was also Chief of State. 

[JoanK]

I was really interested (and shocked) at what she found when she came to the Department of Labor. Imagine, having to talk down gangsters who were stealing files! She was lucky she wasn't hurt. It must have been scary, knowing she was taking on mobsters.

And think of running a racket out of a government agency to terrorize immigrants. I wonder if things like that go on now.

I used Bureau of Labor statistics in my dissertation, so followed her efforts to improve them both before and after her appointment. I guess she was a number hound, like me. Somewhere someone (I can't find the quote ) said almost exactly what I used to tell my students: not to forget that these statistics are not just numbers on a page, but people's lives. Those peoples stories are in there, and if you look, you can find them. Often, statistics are the only thing that give ordinary people a voice to be heard.

[HaroldArnold]

I though the March 1933 inauguration as it pertained to Francis and her reception the next day at her Labor Dept office quit a comical routine.  Beginning with booking hotel reservations with Frances lucky to find a room in a second rate hotel, and continuing with trouble finding her way to the right Inaugural ball.  Then the next day when she appeared at her Labor Dept office she had trouble in claiming her office. 

She made one mistake that first day by keeping a powerful Senate Committee Chairman cooling his heels waiting to see her.  Later Frances had cause to regret this incident.  Our book explains that the Transfer of Power confusion resulted from the fact that the Democratic Party had not been involved in an Inauguration in the past 16 years.

In one area Francis enjoyed a benefit, denied new cabinets members taking power with the new administration in January 2009.  When Frances arrived in Washington for the inauguration, she had already been confirmed by the Senate, as had the entire slate nominated by FDR.  In those simpler years the Senate as a matter of courtesy to the new President automatically confirmed the Presidents nomination without any hearings.  How different it is today when at least two cabinet nominees were rejected and every one had to undergo detailed and expensive hearings.

Another interesting confirmation hearing occurred later in the administration when FDR appointed William O. Douglas to the Supreme Court.  When his nominate came before the Senate Committee he was advised to be present as they might  wanted his testimony.  The Senate Committee approved the nomination without a hearing and the confirmation was confirmed by the entire Senate with only 4 dissenting Republican votes.  Such a quick path to that court is not likely today

[straudetwo]

Thank you, Ella.
Since I'm joining late,  catching up with the book (which is wonderfully accessible) and the posts is a joy and a challenge.

Jonathan,  in your # 173 you posed a marvelous, relevant question  about the Boston Brahmins.
The term was coined in 1860 by Oliver Wendell Holmes; it referred to the old, upper crust New England families of Protestant, mostly English origin, whose leadership decisively influenced the development of the arts,  science,  academia, culture, science, trade, and politics.
 
The families were known for being fiscally conservative, socially liberal, well educated, and distinguished by their specific
Boston Brahmin accent, a special variant of the New England accent, which often is not understood by tourists.  (It has to do with the vowel 'a' and how "car" for example is pronounced in Boston.  But I won't elaborate on linguistics.  
Boston is still one of the most cultured cities in the country.

This doggerel conveys the meaning (though there other families besides those mentioned) :

"And this is good old Boston,
The home of the bean and the cod,
Where the Lowells talk only to Cabots,
And the Cabots talk only to God" .

The descendants never embraced this characterization and prefer to consider themselves just" plain Yankees". [/b]

[Ella Gibbons]

Oh, I love that TRAUDE!

My sister lived for years in New England, Maine and MA, and her children say "cah" for car, and "pawk" for park, etc.  That's how it sounds to me; the Kennedys have the same dialect.  It seems they just delete the "r" sound.

All of you have FP in the Dept. of Labor already.  I'm behind!  I'm still with her in New York with FDR as governor and she is Industrial Commissioner.

Somewhere, HAROLD, one person stated that Roosevelt managed to get programs through Congress during the depression because most of them were freshmen and, no doubt, reluctant to deny a president anything.  Furthermore, they had no ties to lobbyists, etc.  

That could be a reason why his appointments were so readily confirmed, don't you think?

Good points, HAROLD, about comparing two female leaders; certainly Thatcher had the more responsible job, the top job, she was top gun!

JOANK:  I have copied your question and will send it to Kirstin along with Jonathan's.

I have the book that FP wrote about Roosevelt, it is very detailed as to her life in politics and the people she deals with; very interesting.  I know you would all be interested.  She talks of the appointment by FDR as no great surprise as the newspapers had been speculating for days and it was known that he wanted to select a woman for his cabinet.  

Her admiration for FDR knows no bounds.

BELLEMARIE!  I am so sorry you have the wrong book.  Can you get a copy from your library and follow along with us?  YOu might find the chapter on the inaugurataion of FDR and her appointment to the Dept. of Labor,\ in your book as that is what most of us are talking about (all except me and I am slow).

Only nine chapters about Perkins?  I was astounded today while on the treadmill and listening to an audio book by Jon Meacham titled AMERICAN GOSPEL (the history of religion in America) in which he quotes Frances Perkins speaking about FDR's faith and his church.  

She has a whole chapter on the subject - "FAITH OF HIS FATHERS."

Thank you, JEAN, for peeking in and your posts!  

[Ella Gibbons]

Following Harold's questions here are two thoughts for your consideration and and an additional one.  Would you have the audacity to tell a President of the United States what the job should entail?

What were FP’s terms for  accepting the position of Secretary of Labor?

What particular skeletons did Frances find in the Labor Department’s closet when she took power?

A bit of history, maybe?  I don't think we have discussed Al Smith much and if it weren't for him and his mentoring FP, she would never have obtained the leadership in labor that she did.  He gave her independence in the job, backed her programs. trusted her with sensitive material.  In turn, she admired Smith, his willingness to fight for his beliefs, keeping his promises, his ability to listen, his frankness.

It was a great job and with wonderful pay as someone earlier said.  And the experience enabled her to go on to greater heights in the Labor Department.  It helped, too, that she became a Democrat at Smith's urging!!!!!

I'll quote two paragraphs from her book when she is speaking of New York's Industrial Commission:

"The legislature, over a period of 3-5 years, put into law the program of compulsory shorter work day and week for women, limitation of age of children at work, prohibition of night work for women, workmen's compensation for industrial accidents, measures to prevent industrial accidents, and elaborate requirements for the construction of factory and mercantile premises in the interests of the health and safety of the people who worked in them.

The etent to which this legislation in New York marked a change in American political attitudes and policies toward social reponsibility can scarcely be overrated.  It was, I am convinced, a turning point; it was not only successful in effecting practical remedies but, surprisingly, it proved to be successful also in vote-getting."

She adds:

"New York!  If it could be done there, it could be done anywhere!"

I wonder if New York instigated some form of compulsory health insurance for all, if that change of attitude could occur throughout the country?  

What do you think?

[bellamarie]

Ella, yes I am going to try to get my hands on the right book.  I did finish reading this book today and feel I am going to be able to follow along with the group because it has so much of the same details.  It does amaze me how when FDR became President he had the same problems to tackle then as Obama has today.  High unemployment, stock market unstable, an economic crisis, banks failing, and people not being able to pay their mortgages.  Unfortunately it took a war to turn things around for FDR.  I pray that will not be the case for Obama.

Do you feel we have a Francis Perkins in any form of a government position today?  Does anyone see any woman with the drive, passion and persistence for the better of the people, as Frances had?  I don't get the feeling Frances was a true one party person, more so I feel she was willing to work with anyone who was willing to promote and pass her ideas.  She truly put the American people first.  IMO

[bellamarie]

"New York!  If it could be done there, it could be done anywhere!"

I see New York as the state where everything is possible, and it is the state that would accept and implement more modern ways of life and government.  I see NY as the leader of the United States even more so than D.C.  NY is a state with such diversity that if it can be done there,  other states would be willing to do it too.

[PatH]

I'm sorry I've gotten behind--I'm only 1/3 of the way into this week's section, but reading as fast as I can.
One objection to Frances' appointment to the Industrial Commission in New York was that such a highly paid post should not be given to a woman.  At $8000/year, it would make her the highest paid woman in government.

I used the Bureau of Labor Statistics (very appropriate) inflation calculator to learn that $8000 in 1919 would be worth $99,742 today.

That inflation calculator is quite useful.  Go to

http://www.bls.gov/

At the bottom of the first page is a list of "quick links".  Under "calculators" pick "inflation".  You can find what a sum in any year from 1913 to now would be worth in any other year.  Lots of fun.

[HaroldArnold]

Regarding FDR’s apparent ability to get his legislative program through Congress.  True there were many freshmen congressmen that year, but I think that FDR’s legislative program sailed through Congress more because of the urgency of the situation.  Something had to be done and Congressmen freshmen, veterans and otherwise were ready to try anything that seemed likely to put people to work.

Much of the program involved putting people to work.  One such program was in Frances’s bailiwick, the CCC (Civilian Conservation Corp).  As I understand it,  this program recruited young men (there was a separate young women's program too) to do a wide variety of public works jobs.  The pay was $21.00/ month, the same as an army private.  They were particularly well known in the west working on National Park projects.  They lived in army like camps in barracks with their meals furnished.  I remember in 1939 when I was 13 on a family Ozark auto trip when on a late Sunday afternoon we found ourselves sort of lost in the very rural Arkansas Devils Den State Park.   Our gasoline gage was on low when we began to see people walking along the road many carrying bibles as if on their way to church.  My father stopped the car to ask two young men how to get out of the park.  They were CCC boys working on a park project.  They said they didn’t have anything to do so they were going to the evening service at a country church.  They also gave directions that got us out of the park

Today both the legislative and executive situation in Washington has much in common with the 1933 situation.  There is a new President and a new Congress as well as a new economic crisis.  Again as in the 1930’s this president too seems to have easily got his programs through congress.  Also because of the social programs of Frances, the new deal and subsequent 20th century administrations  (particularly unemployment compensation) has at least to some extent alleviated the extreme suffering of the 1930’s.

[JoanK]

I remember my mother, a died-in-the-wool republican, telling me that the CCC was a big waste of money. But we are still enjoying some of its fruits.

One project that I thought was supported by these programs (although I have been unable to confirm it) is Allen Lomax's collection of folk music during the 1930's. We still enjoy many songs that might have been lost but for that.

[PatH]

Joan, I couldn't confirm it either, but I know that a lot of artistic projects were funded that we now feel were worth while.

The CCC also built a number of federal parks, including the nearby Skyline Drive (Shenandoah National Park) which had been previously planned, but didn't get very far before the CCC.

From the sublime to the ridiculous: I can't go to the john in a federal park without thinking of the CCC.  I don't know if I'm right about the origin, but they all have the identical government issue characteristics--neatly painted cinder block, easy to keep clean, identical fixtures, same layout, spare and spartan, but totally adequate, all alike from coast to coast.

[Ella Gibbons]

Frances, living now in New York, in a beautiful apartment close to Central Park, with a maid,  making good money was enjoying life along with the rest of country.  "Everybody was enjoying himself....thinking he was richer and richer.....spending money...importing plays from Europe....... dealing on the stock market." (pg.107)

And then the free fall began, The "Great Gatsby era disintegrated in to the misery of the Grapes of Wrath." (pg.107)

Some of it sounds familiar, as Harold has stated. 

One reason for job unemployment was downsizing by companies for various reasons leaving a pool of workers marooned; homes prices that had been elevated were losing value, foreclosures on homes occurred with rapidity,

This was rather astonishing:  "Jobs for able-bodied men were so scarce that a backlash developed against working women.  Early in the Depression, Frances, whose income supported her family, openly criticized married women who were working for income she called 'pin money.'" (pg.109)

Only one person in a family could hold a job??

I remember teachers being fired or asked to resign if they got married, do you?

Another memory this book revived:  "paying fees to employment agencies." (pg.109)   Do such agencies still exist?  I'm so out of touch with working people anymore I don't know what goes on the real world.

And what ever happened to IBM?  I must quote this:  "Frances went to England to study the country's unemployment compensation program and came back with a strong vision for how a system should be constructed.  ........  She suggested referring the project to an up-and-coming New York firm called International Business Machines....to see if it could develop a paperless system for tracking workers' claims."

Oh, the beginning.......................

YES, WE NEED A STRONG VISION FOR HEALTH CARE REFORM and perhaps, we could send someone like a Frances Perkins to England to study their system. 

JONATHAN, would you care to tell us about it?

[straudetwo]

Comparing FP and Margaret Thatcher.
Both were influential women in their time.  Obviously, Margaret  Thatcher, elevated to the peerage in 1992,  had a wider "domain"  as Prime Minister than FP in her position.  FP died  in 1965 at 85. Thatcher is 84 and not in good health.

Thanks to modern technology we saw (spectacular hats!) and heard a great deal of Lady Thatcher. If we had had the same opportunities to listen to FP,  I for one would have liked FP better.

[bellamarie]

Ella, 

Another memory this book revived:  "paying fees to employment agencies." (pg.109)   Do such agencies still exist?  I'm so out of touch with working people anymore I don't know what goes on the real world.

Yes, there are still agencies that help you find job positions.  I have a friend who works for our city in Human Resources and her job is to find people jobs.  My day care Mom, actually got placed in her new job paying much less, after being out of work for a year, through a placement agency.

[Ella Gibbons]

Thanks, BELLEMARIE, for answering!  I know there are jobs posted on the Internet in different fields but I don't think there is a fee involved.

Joan and Pat, you both seem to remember the CCC.  How can tell what that program did as different than the WPA or other "works projects?"

[PatH]

Joan and Pat, you both seem to remember the CCC.  How can tell what that program did as different than the WPA or other "works projects?"

I can't without looking it up, though I think CCC was more construction type stuff.

I know about "only one person in a family could hold a job", though, because in the 1930s my father worked in the Patent Office and my mother was a librarian in the State Department.  When the ruling came down that only one family member could work for the government, my mother had to quit. She was pretty bitter about it.  Even when I went to work for the government in 1954, I had to answer questions designed to find out how many family members worked for the government, but by then the rules were looser, and my father's employment didn't disqualify me.

[Jonathan]

Of two books on the same subject and other things being equal, I would choose the one with 38 chapters, over the one with only nine. It was that way when I was young and hoping for a fresh adventure with every chapter, and now, much older, I am convinced the author with many chapters has a better grasp of her subject and a surer system of dealing with mountains of research matter, especially in the case of a complex character, such as Frances Perkins, playing her part on an immense, historical stage. Acts and scenes galore. Many exits and entrances. Every chapter a theme or an episode.

Tying it all together in our book is a curious thread that runs through all the chapters. Ella, on her treadmill is listening to Jon Meacham's AMERICAN GOSPEL, when she is surprised to hear Frances Perkins quoted on FDR's faith and his church. The author of our book did alert us early on to FP's religious inclination. The author must attach considerable importance to it in the life of her subject. The book, after all, begins, on the dedicatory page, with a favorite Perkins'  scriptural admonition:

'...be ye steadfast...I Corinthians 15:58'

and ends, 400 pages later, with a most surprising report of spiritual fellowship with the president:

"I came to work for God, FDR, and the millions of forgotten, plain, common working men. The last conversation...I had with FDR was of such a nature  that I could say with the Psalmist, 'My cup runneth over and surely goodness and mercy shall follow me.' "

There we have it. The New Deal was a mission. And FP sensed it while listening to FDR's inaugural address.

'Frances listened entranced....She sensed that Roosevelt must have had a religious revelation, that he was exerting a spiritual leadership that seemed divinely inspired. "It was a revival of faith," she said. "He said, 'Come on now, do you believe?' They said, 'Yes, we do.' " p131

The next day it must have been sheer trauma for FP moving into her  secretarial office at the Labor Department, which she found infested with gangsters, mobsters, various officials on the take, and cockroaches! Surely she's laying it on. Perhaps not. I remember once reading a biography of her colleague Harold Ickes. He found an even worse mess at Interior.

That reminds me. Just the other day I saw this book about Ickes, a political  biography, wrongly shelved at the bookstore, as they sometimes are by an unknowing clerk. There it was on the RELIGION shelf with assorted popes and preachers and other saints. All because of the title I presume: RIGHTEOUS PILGRIM.

[Jonathan]

Canada's universal health care. It's wonderful. We've had it for a generation and I could cite a dozen cases in which family and friends got the benefit of medical attentions, serious and light, paid for out of public funds. Sure we've had problems ironing out the kinks and dealing with forged health identity cards which were available, I know, outside Canada, for $5000. Well worth it of course if it's going to get you a medical procedure costing ten times that.And that's why New York couldn't go it alone. Don't believe all the negative information you're getting about the 'horrors' of Canadian health care. We have many happy campers here with their broken bones mended and their wheezing chests cleared up. lachaim