Non-Fiction

[Gumtree]

TO NONFICTION BOOK TALK

What are you reading?  Autobiographies, biographies, history, politics?

Tell us about the book; the good and the bad of it. 

Let's talk books!

Discussion Leader: HaroldArnold

Roshanarose: We have Schoolies week here too - the kids go to Rottnest Island and south to Margaret River (big surf) - Rottnest has cracked down on antisocial behaviour, alcohol, drugs etc and is regarded as a bit tame these days. Margaret River is also using stiff measures to curb sales of drugs and to oust the drug dealers who follow the kids.

Rottnest has been the mecca for school leavers as long as I can remember and and was recognised as 'schoolies' way back in the 1930s but back then it was mainly only kids from affluent homes - nowadays it is everyone...  

[serenesheila]

I am reading several books at once, again.  Yesterday, I read the first chapter about FDR.  It was interesting.  Especially about his friend, Lucy Mercy, and his daughter, Anne, helping them spending time together.  I wonder if he would have lived longer, had he not run for that 4th term?

Now, I am into Harry S. Truman's life.  Here I am learning a lot of new information.  I had never before heard that HST studied law at night school.  I also did not know that following WWI he was offered a promotion to Major in the Army. I enjoy learning new things about famous people.  The book I am referring to is:  "American Ceasars".

Sheila

[Babi]

 Hmm..  We do have a Paris, Texas,...and a Moscow. I don't think I'll take the trouble
to visit them, tho.  Travel has very definite drawbacks for me these days.

  That's a very reasonable analysis of the situation in Canada during our Revolution,
Harold. I'd never given the subject a thought until Ella brought it up. Even today, I
think Canadians tend to regard us with slightly raised eyebrows.

[ANNIE]

Harold,
Here's an interesting story about the invasion of Canada plan and another plan to invade the US.  And recently, I may add.
http://www.damninteresting.com/americas-secret-plan-to-invade-canada

I seem to remember from back the dark ages of my childhood, a story about America trying twice to take over Canada and failing.  And that happened when we were a new country.  Will look for a date.

Jonathan,
Looks like you have a plethora of NY cities to visit that have worldly names.  That should keep you busy and out of trouble.   

[Jonathan]

Thanks, Harold, for your reply to Ella's questions regarding those northern colonies who declined to join the thirteen as they set out on the road to independence. You've found very sound reasons.

Ella, too, has suggested an interesting thought with the taxation question. That couldn't have been the problem it was for the much bigger commercial and mercantile interests in the bigger and more prosperous colonies to the south.

But what a difference the revolution made in the 'loyal' colonies. Not least was the considerable immigration of what became known as the United Empire Loyalists. Their descendants are still scattered around southern Ontario, including the Niagara region, where I grew up. A considerable number of Pennsylvania Dutch came up in their Conestoga wagons and settled in the Kitchener/Waterloo area. And of course there were those who were given transportation north to the maritime provinces.

What a crisis of loyalty it must have been for many, both north and south. Disloyalty was treason, and thus a hanging matter.

But it all ended happily. Canada and the United States are variations in the good life. If our Canadian eyebrows are occasionally raised, it's always with a sense of wonder. Politically we've both reached the wonderful plateau of democracy, proving that it can be reached in different ways. Evolution, rather than revolution. A curious result is that the United States seems to have far more history than Canada. It's been pretty dull for us up here, at times. In those heady days of sturm und drang, many of us Canadians were probably in the bush checking our traplines. The Tom Paines and Sam Adamses found there listeners among the idlers in the south.

Ann has provided such a curious link to the contingency military planning on both sides of the border. Of course, that's what the military is always doing. What surprised me was that Canadians had budgeted only $1200 for the purpose. Which makes it necessary to cross the border to pick up decent maps at U.S. gas stations. LOL. I've got a whole box full going back 50 years. Collector's items, all of them. I'm a peacenik.

[Frybabe]

I don't know about Canada not having much history, quieter maybe. At any rate, one of my all time favorite books is People of the Deer by Farley Mowat. My edition is dated 1952 and published by Little, Brown. The cover, unfortunately, is not in the best shape, but the inside cover liner and binding are still intact. I think it is a favorite because Mr. Mowat's travels just west of the Hudson Bay took place the year I was born. This had been one of my Dad's books. The few that remain, I cherish.

[Gumtree]

Oh gosh, I haven't heard a reference to Farley Mowat for years. He is not so very well known here though some of his books are in our libraries He always reminded me of the boys in the Durrell family (Gerald and Lawrence) who also had a passion for the wildlife and environmental concerns. 
Once, long ago in the dreamtime I took a course in Canadian literature - Mowat was among the required reading - we read the The People of the Deer - and I read a couple of others ...I remember The Boat That Wouldn't Float - how he put to sea in a leaky unseaworthy boat and in dangerous waters was beyond me -  especially as my DH spent many years as a volunteer on rescue boats.

We also read Hugh McLennan and Robertson Davies etc.... I remember we had to get a direct shipment of the McLennan text from Canada.

[ANNIE]

Jonathan,
Here's another link about the American invasion of Canada which happened during the Revolutionary War.

http://www.historynet.com/invasion-of-canada-during-the-american-revolutionary-war.htm

[PatH]

For years I've been meaning to get around to reading Mowat.  Maybe now is the time.  Where should I start?

I'm a huge fan of Robertson Davies, have read all of his novels and many of his essays.  In Murther and Walking Spirits,  a section deals with Americans fleeing to Canada during our revolution.  My absolute favorite is The Rebel Angels, although mostly the Deptford trilogy, especially Fifth Business, is thought to be his best.

[Jonathan]

Can you believe it? Farley Mowat is still writing. He has certainly earned an enduring place in CanLit.

Frybabe, you're right, of course, about Canadian history. We do have a lot of it. It takes a nudge, like the questions asked in these posts, to arouse one to a better awareness and appreciation of one's native land.

Canada has taken a very peculiar route to nationhood, caught between the conflicting territorial aims of Britain and the United States. Of course, losing the Thirteen Colonies did make the British more generous in subsequent colonial demands for self-government. Except India, perhaps. The British bungled that one, too.

That amazing British Empire. Losing the American colonies only spurred the British on to greater imperial endeavours in other parts of the globe. I've pulled Niall Ferguson's EMPIRE down from my shelf. Has anyone read it? I've got a gloriously illustrated Basic Books edition. Why haven't I read this? This is history on the grandest scale. And Canada was part of it.

More later.

[Jonathan]

Pat, I remember your enthusiasm for Robertson Davies, from a while ago, when his name came up. Why don't you propose The Rebel Angels for discussion.

I enjoyed his, The Cunning Man. Acquiring insight into diagnosing illness in the company of a glitterring array of literary and philosophical  greats. Or did I miss the point?

[ANNIE]

Of all the authors that you all have mentioned, Farley Mowat, it the only familiar name.  I have several of his books but have never taken the time to see if I like them.  After reading about the trees in the US and the trees of Australia, I find myself more interested in reading about other things of nature that we must save.  I think I will take a look at Mowat's books.

I have never heard of Robertson Davis but the interest shown here about his writings is worth a search for one of his titles at my library.  Is there a favorite one among those who have read his books?? 

[Babi]

 I've been reading a most interesting article in the "Smithsonian" that I think would interest you
historians.  It is a description of the Custer debacle as it was seen by the Indians.  Apparently
there were fragments, much neglected, written (or described in interviews) by those who fought in, or witnessed, the battle of Little Bighorn.  Since the Indians were the only survivors of that
fight, you would think someone would have sought their eye-witness accounts sooner. 
  There is a book out now; this article is by the author and can be found in the November issue of 'Smithsonian'. The book is "The Killing of Crazy Horse",  the author is Thomas Powers. The
article includes no only photographs of the area, but Indian drawings of the battle.

[Frybabe]

Adoannie, Farley Mowat is a long time environmentalist as well as a writer. In fact, the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society, founded in 1977, named it's flagship after him.

[JoanK]

Annie: "Jonathan,
Looks like you have a plethora of NY cities to visit that have worldly names.  That should keep you busy and out of trouble."

Busy, yes. Out of trouble, I'm not so sure.

The Canadians were very friendly and welcoming to us on our two trips to Cannada, except once, in a small town in French Canada. We went to a local restaurant for breakfast, sat down at a table in the not-very-full restaurant, and were completely ignored, and looked through. Our requests for ervice met with blank faces. After 30 or 40 minutes, we realized that they really weren't going to serve us and left. Our two children were very upset, and kept asking for explanations, which I was hard pressed to give. On the way out, we noticed a flag with a fleur-de-lis on it, a clue I guess to more politically savy people that this restaurant was for French Canadians only.

This was 35 years ago. I admit, being surprised that there were pockets of such anti-American feeling. I wonder if something like that would happen today. (This one incident has not spoiled my appreciation of the friendliness and courtesy of the other Canadians we met).

[mabel1015j]

I just happened on a woman i had not known about, Margarieta Hardenbrook (plus two other last names from 2 other marriages). I also discovered a recent biography about her. She was a Dutch woman, merchant, who became, probably, the richest woman in 17th century New England, ending up owning at least 5 ships and being the agent for many NY merchants.


http://www.bookpage.com/0608bp/nonfiction/women_of_the_house.html

http://www.amazon.com/Women-House-Colonial-She-Merchant-Mansion/dp/015101065X

I'm going to see if i can find the book from interlibrary loan before i purchase, but it looks quite interesting.......jean

[mabel1015j]

Here is a longer and more interesting description of Hardenbrook

http://b-womeninamericanhistory17.blogspot.com/2010/01/businesswoman-margarieta-hardenbrook-de.html


"business women" sounds better than " she-merchant" to our 21st century ears, put "she merchant" has some strength to it, doesn't it? Maybe because it brings to mind " she-devil"?

Jean

[Jonathan]

'she-merchant' does seem ambiguous. 'She-devil' has the wrong connotations. How about 'madam'? With a roaring place of business.

Joan, it wasn't anti-American feeling that you encountered in the small town in French Canada. You were there at a time of intense separatist feeling. Just hearing English spoken could have put them off. That was about the time when some in Ontario (the neighbouring province) were reluctant to drive about in Quebec with Ontario plates.

One can hardly blame Quebecers feeling strongly about being drowned in an English continent. And yet, sixty years ago, our history professor told us students that Quebec, with its high birthrate, would overrun North America!

Imagine my concern, once, when I needed auto repairs in that small French-speaking small town. Was I going to be told to get lost? A stocky cigar-chomping garage owner looked me over and listened to my broken parlez vous anglais? What a relief when he muttered, why not? It turned out he was Jewish. It was all shalom after that.

[Eloise]

I don’t know what prompted me to come here this morning, it must be the weather. Now I am almost sorry I came.

I am so sad when I read those posts about Quebec, I feel French Canadians are despised even more than before the separatist movement. But I think that without Quebec the rest of Canada would just melt down and become part of the US. Perhaps that would be best, I don’t know.

Can an incident with a waiter in a restaurant in a small town in Quebec over 25 years ago decide on the character of a total population for decades to come?  I too had my foot stepped on when I spoke English to American tourists visiting me but people are like that not just here in Quebec.

We have to learn and speak other languages to understand each other, but very few North Americans feel the need to learn another, but how long do you think it can last? .

“And yet, sixty years ago, our history professor told us students that Quebec, with its high birthrate, would overrun North America”. I wonder where that professor got his degree, China perhaps.

[mabel1015j]

"'she-merchant' does seem ambiguous. 'She-devil' has the wrong connotations. How about 'madam'? With a roaring place of business."
 
Way too sexist, Jonathan....at least they didn't say "businessman".
   

Jean

[Jonathan]

Good to hear from you, Eloise. Quebec is a wonderful place to visit, and I can't imagine Canada without its La Belle Province. The critical years with the FLQ and the French president, De Gaulle, shouting Vive, Quebec, libre, from the steps of the legislature in Quebec City, are long past, but not forgotten. Our French-Canadian PM declared an emergency and put the War Measures Act into effect. Your premier was afraid to leave his office for a while, with one cabinet colleague assassinated, and the British High Commissioner to Canada kidnapped by the terrorists. What a stormy time. The H C was in the news not long ago. Still remembering.

The professor who talked about a French North America was a distinguished Canadian. Frank Underhill. He was talking North American demographics, and he was always stimulating and thought provoking. It didn't seem unreasonable then. How the picture  has changed over the years. The Quiet Revolution in Quebec made such a difference when family planning was practiced. Some Canadians no doubt are pleased and surprised at being saved by the condom. It didn't stop them from learning French, but that may have been short-sighted. Spanish and Chinese are the way to go now. No doubt the professor, MHRIP, is busily revising his views.

Taking a page out of Underhill's book, I'm inclined to think that the map of North America could soon be redrawn. With several U.S. regions opting out of the Union, asking Canada to take them in. Or returning to Mexico. I wonder, can we talk the Cajuns in the South to come home to Acadia. And bring their cuisine with them.

I'm carried away with crazy notions. Forgive me. I wonder is Sarah Palin thinking an American corridor from Alaska to the rest of the U.S.

[JoanK]

ELOISE: "Can an incident with a waiter in a restaurant in a small town in Quebec over 25 years ago decide on the character of a total population for decades to come?"

Oh, Eloise, I'm so sorry I hurt you. Of course not! I tried to make clear in my post that that was one isolated incident, and diddn't balance the wonderful time we had the rest of our trip in French Canada. I would hate to have a visitor to the US form their opinion of us from one rude person. Such people exist in every country.

One of the resons I remembered that incident was that it revealed my ignorance of Canada. Obviously, there was some strong feeling there that I had been completely unaware of. The flag with fleur-de-lis outside should have told me there was something there, just as people in the US who still fly the confederate flag today are saying something about their strong feelings.

[Babi]

You're right, of course, Eloise, in that I think one might find that similar attitudes in most
small, insulated communities.  However, I don't think there is the remotest chance of
Canada melting down and becoming part of the US. As the former MIL and grandmother of
three Canadians, I can attest to their pride in, and preference for, their own country.
  JONATHAN, I love it when you get fanciful.  I was quite amused to think of various parts of
the country deciding to re-attach themselves elsewhere.

[mabel1015j]

I have a "waiter-in-Canada" story also, w/ a different ending........My husband and i decided one week-end in Aug of 1968 to drive from NJ to Montreal, just for fun. We spent Sat night in the Holiday Inn downtown, but they were having a medical conference coming on Sun and had no rooms available for Sun night. But the man at the desk sais he would find us a room elsewhere and he did. We spent the next couple of nights in a quaint little hotel across the street from "old city hall". It felt like being in Europe. The elevators w/ the grille doors which we called "European style". Opposite a small lobby was a little cafe w/ a woman  singing in French, the audience joining her. The room was just big enough for a small bed and a bureau, which was fine w/ us, we were newly weds! However, having to go down the hall to the bathroom, wasn't as much fun! 

The following morning we went to "brunch" to a small cafe in the basement of a building that had a dress shop on the main floor. We ordered at the counter frpm a man who had an obvious NJ/NY accent. My husband was from Passaic NJ. When the man bro't us our food, he asked us where we were from, when we told him, he laughed a hearty belly laugh and said he
 was from Patterson, NJ, which is next door to Passaic and where my husband had lived for his first 12 yrs  and we had a long chat.

Everyone was very nice. We were especially aware of their kindness since we were an interracial couple and did not always have positive responses to our presence.  We even considered Montreal as potential residence, especially since as we returned to the U.S. we heard the uproar of the Democratic convention in Chicago on the car radio. .......jean

[HaroldArnold]

While I will pass on any comment concerning the speaking of English or French in Canada, I do admit I get a kick out of asking French or French-Canadian visitors who I meet at the Institute of Texan Cultures or the Mission  Espada, if they know how the French Flag became one of the six flags that have flown over Texas?  Inevitably they have no Idea that the French were ever involved in colonial Texas.  I then ask if the know of  Renee Robert Cavalier Sieur de La Salle?   Here most  vaguely recognize the name, remembering him as a historical figure involved  in Great Lakes and Mississippi River exploration    None have ever connected him to Texas giving me the opportunity to tell the story in as much detail as their schedule (and mine) allows.  At the least another French speaking visitor leaves at the least knowing that between  Jan 1685 and about Jan 1689 there was a real French  colony on the Texas Matagorda coast.   Also  that La Salle himself died in Texas killed by his own men in May 1689.

Regarding the French flag that we some times fly, it is always the  fleur de lys  that most days can be seen flying in the Flag Field at the entrance  of the institute of Texan Cultures.  This Flag field includes some 30 National Flags of the design used when  immigrants from that nation first came to Texas.  The U.S. Flag flown in this field is the 28 star national flag flown in 1845 when Texas was admitted to the union. 

[Frybabe]

Thanks for the little tidbit, Harold. I Googled images of Matagorda. What a lovely shoreline. I could have done without the pictures of a congregation of rattlesnakes that Google picked up with the query though.    I don't think I have ever seen pictures of rattlesnakes in such numbers in such a small space. It reminded me more of pictures of garter snakes when they come out of their winter hiding spaces and do their mating thing.

[HaroldArnold]

Regarding Rattlesnakes in the Matagorda Bay area in 1686 at least one of the French prominant settlers died from a rattlesnake bite.  He lingered in extreme pain for some two months until he died following the amputation of the effected leg.  Another of the settler's, La Salle's personal servant, was  lunch for an alligator while trying to cross the Brazos river.  At the time all the Rivers of Texas including  our local San Antonio River harbored alligator populations.  They disappeared by the end of the 19th century but they are now showing up again, but have not yet had time to reach large sizes.
I have not heard of them in the San Antonio River but I know they are in ranch ponds just 50 miles South of San Antonio whose drainage are tributary to the S,A, River,

[Frybabe]

I am not sure I remember right. Wasn't one of the reasons De Soto's crew were ticked off at him because he had them traipsing through swamps? By the way, I've just added a biography of Champlain to my BN cart. You, Eloise, and Jonathan have gotten me interested in the history of the French in America. I vaguely remember learning something about the Acadians, but don't remember much. Not too far upstate from me, near Route 6, is an area that had a French settlement. It was supposed to be where Maria Antoinette, et.al., were to escape to when the revolution broke out. Obviously, she never made it.

[Babi]

 So, Marie didn't make it, but ironically, Napoleon did.  Didn't he take refuge in Louisiana for a
time?  Perhaps he should have stayed there.

[Frybabe]

I don't know about Napoleon, but his brother spent some years here on the East Coast between 1817 and 1832. There was some archeological digging going on in the area of the estate a few years back.

http://www.napoleon-series.org/research/biographies/c_joseph.html

http://www.archaeology.org/1003/abstracts/letter.html

[maryz]

Interesting, Frybabe - I'd never heard of that.

[mabel1015j]

Bordentown is abt 30 mins from where we live and is the town where my son teaches and coaches. I was very surprised the first time i heard about a Bonaparte having lived in our area. Too bad the house was razed, wldn't it b fun to see?........jean

[HaroldArnold]

The brother made it to America.  He was a friend and corespondent with Audubon.  Napoleon himself never made it He was first exiled to a Mediterranean Island whose proximity to France made his escape and return to France easy.  He was at once welcomed back as Emperor in full command of a hastily assembled veteran army that constituted a formidable force.  It almost beat the British under Wellington at Waterloo, but the timely arrival of strong German reinforcements resulted in his total defeat.  This time the Allies mad sure he would not get back.  They sent him to Exile at an isolated south Atlantic island, St Helena, where under the watchful eyes of a British army regiment he lived out his final years. 
 

[mabel1015j]

I've just started to read a book i think some of you might like. The Food of a Younger Land by Mark Kurlansky. He found, in the Library of Congress, a file of a WPA that was a collection of bits and pieces about food from different regions of the country. The information was to result in a book titled "America Eats"but it never got edited and published. The cover statement says: " A portrait of American food - before the nat'l highway system, before chain restaurants, and before frozen food, when the nation's food was seasonal, regional and traditional -from the lost WPA files."

It has some recipes-sort of, at least the ingredients, i. e. Sweet pumpkin pickle from VT, Long Island rabbit stew, Kentucky spoon bread, Mississippi molasses pie, Ind pork cake, Oregon salmon bbq. There are different words for the same food in different parts of the country, their is poetry abt food, how and when people ate, etc, etc.
 
Kurlansky mentioned that growing up in the 40's he remembers only A & W Root Beer and Howard Johnson as chain restaurants, i cldn't think of any others, either except for Woolworth's, which was really a 5&10, and that's what we called it, " the 5&10," not the "5&10 cent store!"  What time did you have "dinner?" Did you have "supper"?

Some of the paasages are beautiful, such as the description of Vermont during the "sugaring-off" if the maple syrup. It seems that global warming is impacting the maple sugar production also because there nights must be cold enough, long enough to freeze the sap at night and to thaw in the daytime. Also, acid rain is effecting the soil creating smaller production.

I'll add some more tidbits as i read along..........jean  

[Jonathan]

 “That’s where Joseph’s house was.” After three years of working at Point Breeze, Veit is comfortable calling the king by his first name." from the link, supplied by Frybabe.

Coming to America must have been a great levelling process for these royal refugees. Joseph didn't dare arrive as the king that he had been, but as the Count de Survilliers. It seems he had to get used to being addressed as Mr Bonaparte. Now he's referred to as Joseph. Soon he will be just plain Joe!!! LOL.

I can't count the times I've passed the Hwy directions on Route #3 in upstate NY to the South Shore and then the North Shore of Lake Bonaparte, on my way to the Adirondacks. Always with a lot of curiousity. Now it has really been whetted.

The same goes for my appetite for those regional foods. Mouth-watering information. Many thanks for the reference to the Kurlansky book. I must get my hands on it.

[HaroldArnold]

But don't forget that the Bonaparte family was in no way royal.  Napoleon was a miserably common upstart so far as the established royal families were concern.   Some of Napoleon's brothers and marshals had been elevated by Napoleon to king status in Spain, Sicily, and etc.  The one most connected to the U.S in the post Napoleonic time was Charles Lucien Bonaparte who was Audubon’s friend.  His name is referenced some 14 times in the index of my Audubon biography.

Only one of Napoleons close associates who had obtained Royal status survived in power in post Napoleon Europe.  This was Marshal Bernadotte.   Napoleon did not actually make this elevation.  It seems there was a succession crisis in Sweden when the old King died without a definite heir at a time when Napoleon was at the height of his of his power.  Hoping to win Napoleon’s favor the Swedes elected Bernadotte as their King.   Napoleon was not really enthusiastic about it but finally approved.   A few years later Bernadotte as King of Sweden join the collation of European Countries to end Napoleon’s career.  Today the House of Bernadotte still reigns in Sweden.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Bernadotte

[mabel1015j]

I got hookes on Napoleon and Josephine after seeing Desiree, a movie about Napoleon losing his love to Bernadotte. It  starred Marlon Brando, Jean Simmons, Merle Oberon and Michael Rennie with Cameron Mitchell, Elizabeth Sellars, Charlotte Austin, Cathleen Nesbitt, Carolyn Jones and Evelyn Varden.

I was about 15 yrs old and then i read the book and then more books about Josephine and Napoleon. I think they may have been mostly fiction, but they got me interested in the period and the people.........jean

[Frybabe]

Desiree was one of the books in my Dads' very small library. I remember starting it, but don't think I got too far. I no longer have it. I believe I only have four of his books left, Green Mansions, People of the Deer, G.B.S. A Full Length Portrait,and The Life of Samuel Johnson. Other books from his library that I remember include a Korean War novel which, I thought, was written by Frank O'Connor. I am probably wrong. Then there was The Red and the Black which some of you did in a book discussion, and the Silver Chalice. The first I was not interested in reading, the last I started, but Mom lent it to a neighbor. It never made it back.

[HaroldArnold]

I too remember the Desiree Movie with Marlon Brando  and Jean Simmons'  I would like to watch it again so I will have to watch for it on the Turner old movie channel.

My biography of Napoleon is one by Emil Ludwig first published in 1915.  My copy is a Modern Library Edition purchased about 1950.  Though it contains some 650 pages it is one of the regular Modern Library hard cover titles that sold through the 1950 for only $1.00.  

[mabel1015j]

An ex of the tidbits of info - i'm going to have to go find out where "tidbits" came from- in Kurlansky's Food is : the Grand Central Oyster Bar is one of the few restaurants in the FWP that us stillinoperation today. It was partof the original Grand Central Terminal opened in 1913 as the largest, most luxurious train statiion in the world. Among oth features were ramps instead of stairs and a hair salon in the women's waiting room. NYC had been famous for centuries for the oyster beds of the harbor and other city waterways. The shores of all five boroughs werecovered inoyster beds and the land was marked by ancient piles of discarded shells. One has been carbon- dated to 6950 B.C.

Jean