The Library

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, the change in Cromwell - my concept of the change was he gets too close to the wives and seeing the death of Anne I think was an assault on his moral character - when he answers his son about her keep looking at the tower hoping for a last minuet reprieve I thought that is a key that in reality he was also hoping for but realized none would be coming and they were going head long into the atrocity he had to witness. Seeing someone you helped and advised and saw vulnerable and even realizing her stubbornness was in face of palace intrigue as well as wanting a life - seeing her beheaded you would have to do something with your feelings that would be beyond raw.

I'm thinking the assault on his emotions would be greater than he could allow to wash over him and accept especially knowing the reason for her death to satisfy the king's desire for a son and so Cromwell no longer does his job from a place of logic and feelings but hides in his role with all its elevated power to the point he overestimates his position and power by sharing with those he thinks if not friends at least beholden to him his secret support made to Kathrine to take care of Mary.

This new personality, drunk with power is how I would describe it, will be his downfall - I think he now finally understands that Henry is actually a weak and little man who uses his power ruthlessly for his own ends and his, Cromwell's role is an extension - he, Cromwell is only there to make happen the king's wishes and the King is a selfish little man and so Cromwell starts to see an avenue to use independently the power he realizes he has without covering his independent acts

I'm thinking we know the story and can accept Anne's beheading coming - although showing some of the brutality of the beheading it would not be the same as knowing the person and although knowing what was coming actually witnessing the brutal death of this young woman. To my way of thinking to Cromwell her beheading stripped something away like humanity and so, he has to close off his own humanity because I'm thinking he has no words or feelings to describe what he just witnessed, that was even greater knowing why this brutal act. That to me is the light - the light of realization and the mirror my guess will be he, Cromwell will sink into cutting himself off from his own humanity and becomes a pawn to power, mirroring the King who is nothing but a tub of power. Only this tub has greater power than Cromwell.

This line of thinking could bite me but I had not read the book and just from watching Sunday night this was my take away...

Frybabe yes, I too bristled at the concept of not worrying over things you can change - what helped me understand where he is coming from is someplace among these many post-its there is one about how not to complain - it suggests you either do something about the problem or forget it since complaining is simply looking for attention and so, in this post-it I leaped past the words about not worrying about what I can control to the concept you do something about it and part of 'doing' is understanding the issue which can look like unnecessarily worry or - as many call pondering - the looking at all sides to come up with a good solution - some call that process worry - some cultures even have worry beads and so to my way of thinking there can be two sides to worry - the pondering or the agitation that comes with anxiety developing no plan to alter the situation. I've also experienced a few times to my shock and amazement, left alone some things take care of themselves and here I got into a stew over nothing.

Words are funny - I've been hit in the face recently how we use words to convey meaning based on our own history with words - I was talking with Katha last week about my concern that I had things on the old computer that still runs on Word 7 that I really need to transfer so I don't loose it to the newer computer and how someone we both know had set a link on both computers so I can easily transfer word documents from one to the other and I forgot how to use the link - and she was coming up with ideas that made no sense to me - we went on like this for minimum 5 minutes but more like 10- I kept saying how if a loose the old computer then I would still have the documents - well we laughed it  was my use of the word loose - she knew I don't use an iphone or a tablet but these large computers - she is thinking how on earth could I loose something that large - and of course I am thinking of loosing as the computer dying never to come back on again - after all it has to be at least 15 years old if not older.

That is why I've always loved posting and reading on Senior Learn - when everyone chips in their ideas there is always for me an aha or another way to look at something 

Which by the way Ginny, Wolsey is a figure in his imagination isn't he? It took two of his appearances and the way the wording was acted before it hit that Wolsey had already died and so this would be Cromwell's memory of how he thinks Wolsey would speak to him.  Hmmm I probably need to follow your lead and watch this again - don't know now if Wolsey is saying the words that is the 'right' conscious of Cromwell and that this exchange is acknowledging that Cromwell knows he is now not the man he was where as Wolsey was staying true to his convictions even on his way to his trial.

And yes, the movie the Conclave - have it on my list but have not watched it yet. I understand all those present at the Pope's called Conclave did watch the movie - from what I gather reading the various reports it was a lot of time that helped cement the bishops to Frances but nothing of value for the laity came out of the conclave - there is a book I have on my list to read titled Conclave - don't know if it is the book that was made into the movie or another story of a conclave -

[Frybabe]

Barb, Conclave is based on the book by Robert Harris. I have read his Cicero Trilogy and I have on my shelf and yet to be read An Officer and a Spy which was published just prior to Conclave. Act of Oblivion is in my extensive library Wish List somewhere. Harris also wrote five non-fiction books, all of which were published prior to his career as a novelist. Officer and a Spy and The Ghost Writer have each won several European awards, and Conclave won the USC Scripter Award in February. It also won some Oscar awards this year, but not for Best Picture. I completely missed that the awards were even held yet. Not that I watch them, but I usually am aware of when they are being held. I also have yet to watch the movie.

[ginny]

Barbara, that’s an interesting take on Wolsey appearing.   I took him as a ghost and all that entails. ( I used the close captioning and he clearly says almost immediately “when I was alive…”). Now I wonder for the first time why he  is there. I can’t find my Mirror and the Light book but I couldn’t  resist ordering another one —-they’re so cheap in paperback.  It will be here today.

And reading the reviews of it again,  I see people were put off by dream like sequences, the symbolic dreamlike sequences, when they wanted plot. I think I may have rushed through it too fast. It did not, like its two  predecessors,  win  the Booker. I want to read it again. Apparently there’s something in the book or movie  referring to the mirror and the light being Henry. And then the author has stated what the mirror is, in an interview, but unfortunately I didn’t pay any attention to it at the time.   I have not been able to figure out either of those symbolic metaphors at all. I was hoping the movie would fix that. 
 
Frybabe,  I wouldn’t have said Conclave was the best movie I have ever seen but it’s got some terrific performances in it.  I  think in particular Ralph Fiennes was  really quite good. However I have not been to the movie theater in years-  truly years-  so I don’t really—- I’m not up on the new movies.   

Frankly I thought if anything was being symbolized in the HenryVIII/ Cromwell Movie, it is the destructiveness of power.  I just happened to realize why that is interesting, in these two very different men. 

[Frybabe]

Okay, now I thing I might have to read Mirror and the Light. Do I have to read the books before? I think I have Wolf Hall somewhere. I think it is on my Kobo reader rather than my Kindle. I have to go look. Anyway, Ginny, your mention of dreamlike sequences and especially symbolic dreamlike sequences very much reminds me of Carl Jung and his archetypes and dream analysis.

[BarbStAubrey]

so much today - Ok first Ginny are the fires affecting your area - on the phone with my daughter who is getting ready to be on the safe side since the only thing between her and the fires is highway 26 which the fires have not jumped yet - their good friend from Austin who does live east of 26 is right in the middle of all this and it seems the firemen are no longer trying to stop the fires but rather as a house in in peril they post firemen outside and they keep dosing the house to save it - a couple of her friends' homes have been saved this way and none of them had been insured since they were affected by the flooding that the insurance did not cover and still have temporary roofs so the insurance companies will not insure them till they get a permanent roof installed. And now fires - both of these friends the trees and land all around the house are burned but the firemen were able to save the house - on top of all this her best friend's daughter is dying and there is no more the doctors can do - trying to support her with all of this and my experience with children dying is so different since before about 1960 it was not unusual and there was a way we as friends, neighbors and family traditionally helped each other and the family - this gave everyone a path of going forward however, all that is gone now since for decades the death of a child is unusual.

And Frybabe I searched and cannot find the 'post-it' that talked about not complaining but do something about whatever was creating worry or else let it go and accept - then it hit me - yes, after quite a bit of time searching - I had 3 of these bits of wisdom and the waste of complaining and what it was really accomplishing - and finally I got rid of all three after it hit me with all the bits I've read and saved that I had to accept I could not change anyone -

One of my sister's is a constant complainer - big issues and small - a lot of wanting the government to do this or that to help her situation - I was getting more and more annoyed - my brain went to, this is not how you were raised - what is this depending on someone other than yourself - if we heard once we heard hundreds of times out mother saying 'he who has the gold rules' - la la la - her emails were a choir to open and so I decided since there was no changing why frustrate myself - if that was how she wanted to live there was nothing I could do or say to change it and so instead of answering email immediately I waited a day or two - as a child she was a pouter and now as an elder it was not attractive - the few friends she had all of a sudden became busy with their family - and where I felt bad for her I could not fill the breach and so I got rid of everything that spoke of complaining and each day as I noticed difficult changes in my own life mostly because of aging I would say - do something or at least accept this is what happens ---

Yes, I still struggle - do not like seeing my sister in her stew and I'm so used to helping out this is difficult to let it, which means to me let her go... I do remember that in the 90s so many of us were into reading Wayne Dyer - He, along with so many were into eastern religions. At the time healing was the rage in Austin - every other church or park department community building had some sort of 12 step meeting that were packed from AA to Al-Anon, Adult Children of Alcoholics, Over Eaters anonymous, Over Spenders, a few for drug addicts, many for those affected by sexual abuse, on and on along with Battered Woman being housed with those of us in Real Estate contributing large sums to buy the Center. With all this going on part of what was on most people's lips came from reading and absorbing the Tao which is full of whatever happens leads us to the unknown that we can embrace or fight against which trying to hold off or fight against leads to wanting to feel better and that means for many an addiction. All that to say last night I found a few of Wayne Dyer's books on Amazon and just reading the free portion renewed so much for me that yes, he writes about 'doing' but also 'being' at peace with what we cannot or are unwilling to change. Thus the post-it about worry written by Wayne Dyer came from that thinking centered in the Tao.

OK books --- thanks for clearing up that the Conclave is both the movie and the book by Harris - not sure now - usually I like to read before seeing the movie version but I've so many book going glory only knows when I'd get to it and watching a movie at night is a satisfying way to end the day...

Ginny when you said 'it is the destructiveness of power' that got me thinking - there is this change in Cromwell compared to the earlier movie that I do believe came about witnessing the beheading of Anne so that he does not even care anylonger - he is hiding within his power and using it as he will but he is too smart to have made public his caring for Mary because he promised Kathrine - that at the end of that section says to me it is the carry over to the next part of the movie - to be that careless I think he is maybe not consciously but he is assuring his own demise that since I see him as a hollowed out man that he fills with using his power he is not only assuring his physical demise but also who he is which is now power. As to Henry I do not remember seeing anything or if I did it went right over my head as to his absorption of power that he uses for his own ends. Interesting his selfish use of power affects not only the nation but world history where as Cromwell's power is extinguished with his execution. hmm Maybe it is the level of power with Henry's power being more powerful.

As to Wolsey - just as I could quote my mother I really have no idea what she would say if she were alive - I can only imagine based on memory and my own attitude and beliefs which is what I think Cromwell does when we see Wolsey - this is theater and we cannot get into the mind of Cromwell and so to see his thinking this would be a devise - transfer his thoughts into words spoken, an argument made by a 'ghost'   

I'm curious now about Henry - is there any information about his childhood - I do not even know who his parents are - I've never read or even heard anything about him except as a king and I think it was Mantel who indicated or maybe it was a more recent Lucy Worsley investigation featured on PBS that Henry had difficulties sexually. Using what we know today about addiction he is clearly addicted to eating and to power and so what is his life experience that he responds this way - I can see he really feels inadequate therefore, all the bluster and selfishness - his prowess as a warrior is iffy at best since he really doesn't accomplish much in battles that is lasting because of the wars he fought.

[BarbStAubrey]

aha so Henry had an older brother Arthur who was to marry Catherine but when he died, his father's death bed request was that Henry marry Catherine to cement alliances with Spain and Catherine and Henry had a great marriage for about 15 years...

then found this tidbit...

In January 1536, while jousting at Greenwich, Henry VIII was unseated from his horse, and the horse, fully armored, landed on him.

Initial Injuries:
The King was unconscious for two hours, and his legs were crushed in the fall, potentially with fractures to his long bones.

Ulcer Development:
While the wounds initially appeared to heal, ulceration reappeared shortly afterwards, becoming particularly painful and difficult to manage during 1536–1538.
 
Long Term Effects
Some historians suggest that this accident, and the resulting leg ulcers, had long-lasting psychological effects on the King, possibly contributing to a change in his personality and increasingly tyrannical behavior.

Henry had not been fat at all in fact he'd been declared very handsome in his twenties he was a trained athlete he was about six foot one in height.
 

[Frybabe]

Here is the Serenity Prayer, somewhat forgotten these days I think: This is the whole prayer, not just the first bit which is all I ever knew of it.

The Serenity Prayer

God, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change
the courage to change the things I can
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time,
enjoying one moment at a time.
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace.
Taking, as he did, the sinful world as it is,
not as I would have it.
Trusting that he will make all things right
if I surrender to His will;
that I may be reasonably happy in this life,
and supremely happy with Him forever.

—Reinhold Niebuhr, 1892-1971

The first stanza was a popular saying to embroider or needlepoint when I was young.

[BarbStAubrey]

ah yes, a great reminder - thanks frybabe - sounds so simple but not easily accomplished and I remember one of the often times repeated phrase that if we bathe everyday than we need to be reminded daily of our path to serenity - recently I read how an Olympic athlete was struggling creating a meaningful spiritual life and he likened how everyday he practiced his running and therefore, he transferred the concept that to be really good at anything it had to be practiced daily. I forgot how important daily reminders are - they are not just a fun frivolous saying but rather taking the words and owning them along with the daily reminder of what is important to our sanity which is a connection to something greater than we are.

I'm full of questions about Henry and Cromwell - the slant I'm picking up from Mantel's Mirror and the Light about Cromwell is not matching what I've read in the past about the ruthless Cromwell who engineered every thing including the death of Anne. Well it could be that history is uncovering another version of Cromwell - in 2019 a new bio of Cromwell was published written by Diarmaid MacCulloch - that is showing a softer Cromwell - evidently many papers from this time in history were made available online from Oxford at great expense and time and skill - Mantel and MacCulloch knew each other and were in communication with each other while both were writing their books. In the Intro MacCulloch does say...

"Thomas Cromwell’s name has happily become much more familiar in the last decade, thanks principally to Hilary Mantel’s inspired novel series beginning with Wolf Hall. To call them ‘historical novels’ does them an injustice; they are novels which happen to be set in the sixteenth century, and with a profound knowledge of how that era functioned. Novels they remain, as Mantel herself has frequently (and with mounting weariness) emphasized to would-be critics. This book is different. It invites you, the reader, to find the true Thomas Cromwell of history, by guiding you through the maze of his surviving papers – and a real maze they are, composed of thousands on thousands of individual documents. The journey is worth making, because this Thomas Cromwell shaped a great revolution in his own country’s affairs, which has in turn shaped much of the modern world, not least that still-Protestant power, the United States of America."

And so of course I could not resist and downloaded the book along with the other main character that has peaked my interest mostly how did he become the insufferable tub of power we see in the Wolf Hall series. Never mind all the wives and all the shenanigans in court that came about because of or as a result of the wives... He obviously is addicted to food and to his selfish use of power that at times he has second thoughts but after the fact when it is too late to change course. And so I've also downloaded Tracy Borman's Henry the VIII and the Men Who Made Him.

Bits from the preface...
"In 1537, King Henry VIII instructed his favourite court painter, Hans Holbein, to begin work on a huge mural to decorate the wall of his privy chamber at Whitehall Palace...

It would be Holbein’s most ambitious commission to date. Although the finished mural was destroyed by fire in 1698, the details have been passed down to us, thanks to a copy that was made for Charles II, as well as to the cartoon that Holbein used for transferring the composition to the wall. It was intended to project the might of the Tudor dynasty, and showed Henry flanked by his wife and his late parents, Henry VII and Elizabeth of York...

Adopting an aggressive, warrior-like pose, he stands with his legs spread apart and his hands on his hips. With one hand he reaches towards an ornate dagger that hangs at his waist...
This would become the iconic image of Henry VIII and would be replicated in a host of subsequent portraits.

But Holbein’s masterpiece also reveals a deeper secret about the real man behind this intimidating exterior. At the centre of the picture is a Latin inscription. It describes the achievements of Henry and his predecessor:

Between them there was great competition and rivalry and [posterity] may well debate whether father or son should take the palm. Both were victorious. The father triumphed over his foes, quenched the fires of civil war and brought his people lasting peace. The son was born to a greater destiny. He it was who banished from the altars undeserving men and replaced them with men of worth. Presumptuous popes were forced to yield before him and when Henry VIII bore the sceptre true religion was established and, in his reign, God’s teachings received their rightful reverence. In short, Henry had achieved more than his father.

That Henry felt the need to assert his superiority over his late father at this point in his reign betrays his deep-seated insecurity, as well as the fear of parental disapproval that still plagued him almost thirty years after Henry VII’s death...

Holbein was one of many men who made Henry, but his influence was arguably greater than most, certainly in terms of shaping his master’s public image.

From these bits alone I am getting a picture of an insecure Henry that I saw as a little man - This is all you Ginny  you sharing your interest got me going so that my curiosity got the better of me... I need to say thanks  been reading for months now but not with this curiosity that for me has always made reading a joy...

[BarbStAubrey]

[ginny]

Barbara, we did have a small fire in this area before all the winds, but it never made the news and the firemen were on  it immediately, nothing like what we are seeing  on the news, first  in Myrtle Beach  SC and in the mountains of NC, nothing. It's quite unusual for us. I hope it pours rain for a week! Everywhere there is a fire out of control.

On Cromwell, you've made  a good choice with the Diarmaid MacCulloch, as he's a major scholar and so is his book. I bought it immediately when it came out, he writes beautifully but it is scholarly.  The hardback is still in my bedroom, I found it pretty impossible for night time reading, it's VERY heavy to try to read as you recline, BUT now that the Mirror and the Light is out and there is a Kindle version I may have to revisit it , and have moved it to the place I read in the day time. I have all sorts of questions, and he WAS the groundbreaker in this understanding of Cromwell.

There are so many things I don't understand about this "new" Cromwell we're seeing. He is rougher and not as....relatable as he was in the first two books (the Wolf Hall movie)...I wonder if the Ghost of Wolsey (yet to appear in my Mirror and the Light) is a movie addition or... or?  The thing about Cromwell promising her mother he'd look after her: that's so out of character for him to be sitting around with that crowd of trusted people laughing about it. Is it based on fact? If it is, MacCulloch will know. Interesting you mention Holbein as well, as Mantel's book has him disliking  Holbein's portrait of Cromwell. (I think that was in Bring Up  The Bodies, not overly sure), and wondering how Holbein got that "take" on him.

But already (and Mantel is still dealing with the plot),  The Mirror and the Light is following the movie beautifully and I feel able to "see" what's being said in the movie. My gosh at the cast of characters in the book  which you mentioned, though.

I have also been obsessed with Margaret Pole, (previously totally unknown to me), and how she figured in this very complicated Crowd With Claims to the Throne. Still not sure on her, either. I did read a short biography of her which helped somewhat.

Really enjoying the experience. So far. Amazing what I don't know about this period of history in Britain.

[Frybabe]

Another person of influence in that era, though not English, was Niccolo Machiavelli. His most famous work, Il Principe was not published until 1532, around five years after his death, and one year before Queen Elizabeth I was born. There are a number of scholarly papers on the subject of his influence on Queen Elizabeth I and British politics in general during her reign.

This morning I ran across a quote in the book I am reading now tying her ruling style to Machiavelli. Although he may not have influenced her rule directly, she may have come by it naturally, his writings likely reinforced her natural abilities.

...abstain from threats or any contemptuous expressions, for neither of these weaken the enemy, but threats make him more cautious, and the other excites his hatred and a desire for revenge.

This is a caution that is echoing my thoughts/fears about the current political situation, and I am quite surprised to run across it just this morning. According to my research, Machiavelli may not have come up with anything terribly original in his thoughts, but rather studied historical rulers and was able to pick out what generally works and what doesn't. He made a guidebook for rulers and would-be rulers that is still relevant today. And, of course, I have a copy somewhere, or did, but haven't read it.

[BarbStAubrey]

Ouch on Machiavelli - the thing I remember is not only does he say something like the ends justify the means but he also says a leader should expand their power even if it means committing immoral acts... Yikes... and yet we see it even today... As I recall the name of the book is The Prince. 

Have not started the Cromwell book yet - reading this book on Henry is enlightening in many ways - first chapter (Long Chapters) not only goes into his childhood and how he was raised and educated but ties together the relationships to those in the past and present especially those involved on his mother's side who, because she raised him along with his sisters unlike Arthur who was raised separately in another castle, Henry became closer to her side of the family adopting mostly her brother's viewpoints whom he was very close to and evidently takes his looks from her side of the family.

I never was an aficionado of British History - oh I knew the main whose and wherefores but each king was an individual with their accomplishments rather than a connection of families. If it was said it went right over my head that Wolf Hall was the ancestral home of the Seymours and exists today however not available to be used to make the film.

So far I am reading that Henry had little contact with his father although for the times his father took good care of Henry - with all the York influence I'm not seeing the connection why he would want his father's approval so badly as the early bit with the Holbein painting inferred - rather I'm getting that he represents a more antagonistic view of his father following the York viewpoint of him however, his father was far less ruthless.

Like you say Ginny none of this is easy swift reading - hoping I can get in enough of this history to make this coming Sunday's episode of Mantel's book more connected so that the change in Cromwell makes sense - my plan is to finish a chapter at a time switching back and forth between these two books...  Thank goodness it is raining again today so I can read without feeling guilty for putting off the painting of some shelves and baskets I started. I need to be two of me here of late...

[PatH]

Frybabe, that's a very good example of Machiavelli's typical approach.  Another one: If you have to enlist an ally in fighting someone, try to make it someone weaker than you, not stronger, for the stronger man might turn on you next once the common enemy is defeated, and the weaker man won't.

Il Principe didn't make it to Portland, darn it,  but I've read it several times, though not recently, also a comic romantic play, with what was a standard plot of the times.

[BarbStAubrey]

Pat could not find anything that talked about or showed Il Principe to be a comic romantic play - this is all I could find... by any chance do you have a link or can you share a bit about the play.

The Prince is an explosive homoerotic prison drama set in a repressive 1970s Chilean prison.
https://youtu.be/KvT9nBtq4tU?si=BiDPgtLqhl44iIXj

[BarbStAubrey]

[Frybabe]

Oh great! Not a movie I would like to see, heavily edited or not.  I remember the news about the disappearances and torture that happened during Pinochet's reign. As far as The Prince is concerned, I just discovered that there was/is some controversy over whether or not it was actually written as a satire. I don't recall ever seeing or hearing about it, but on investigation, there are quite a few articles and lectures to be found about the hypothesis.

[ginny]

And  Machiavelli  is another one I don't know much about! They seem to be piling up here lately instead of diminishing.

 I realized this morning that I am very excited to see tomorrow night's presentation of the Henry VIII/ Cromwell saga. It's been a long time since I had to wait for anything cinematic, and it's kind of fun. Takes you back to the old  TV days when  you couldn't buy it all on  DVD first and binge watch, and you waited in great anticipation to see what they would do this week,

The Mantel Mirror and Light book is apparently the play list for the movie, they are moving page by page in the film as they are in the book,  as well, and it explains a lot about motivation and behind the scenes. And the dialog in the movie is straight out of the book. So far the movie, I think, has covered the first 34 pages of the book, so it will either be the longest movie in history or..... There are 750 some pages in the paperback.

It really IS so interesting to see how the two genres, literary and theater, choose to  present the same material.

[ginny]

PS: The New York Times, onlline, and readable with or without a subscription, has a good article on the new movie, and their own take on the ghost appearances and on the meaning of the title. I actually think they are right in the identity of the Mirror and of the Light: it never occured to me.  It will be interesting to see what everybody who watches it thinks.