The Library

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, the change in Cromwell - my concept of the change was he gets too close to the wives and seeing the death of Anne I think was an assault on his moral character - when he answers his son about her keep looking at the tower hoping for a last minuet reprieve I thought that is a key that in reality he was also hoping for but realized none would be coming and they were going head long into the atrocity he had to witness. Seeing someone you helped and advised and saw vulnerable and even realizing her stubbornness was in face of palace intrigue as well as wanting a life - seeing her beheaded you would have to do something with your feelings that would be beyond raw.

I'm thinking the assault on his emotions would be greater than he could allow to wash over him and accept especially knowing the reason for her death to satisfy the king's desire for a son and so Cromwell no longer does his job from a place of logic and feelings but hides in his role with all its elevated power to the point he overestimates his position and power by sharing with those he thinks if not friends at least beholden to him his secret support made to Kathrine to take care of Mary.

This new personality, drunk with power is how I would describe it, will be his downfall - I think he now finally understands that Henry is actually a weak and little man who uses his power ruthlessly for his own ends and his, Cromwell's role is an extension - he, Cromwell is only there to make happen the king's wishes and the King is a selfish little man and so Cromwell starts to see an avenue to use independently the power he realizes he has without covering his independent acts

I'm thinking we know the story and can accept Anne's beheading coming - although showing some of the brutality of the beheading it would not be the same as knowing the person and although knowing what was coming actually witnessing the brutal death of this young woman. To my way of thinking to Cromwell her beheading stripped something away like humanity and so, he has to close off his own humanity because I'm thinking he has no words or feelings to describe what he just witnessed, that was even greater knowing why this brutal act. That to me is the light - the light of realization and the mirror my guess will be he, Cromwell will sink into cutting himself off from his own humanity and becomes a pawn to power, mirroring the King who is nothing but a tub of power. Only this tub has greater power than Cromwell.

This line of thinking could bite me but I had not read the book and just from watching Sunday night this was my take away...

Frybabe yes, I too bristled at the concept of not worrying over things you can change - what helped me understand where he is coming from is someplace among these many post-its there is one about how not to complain - it suggests you either do something about the problem or forget it since complaining is simply looking for attention and so, in this post-it I leaped past the words about not worrying about what I can control to the concept you do something about it and part of 'doing' is understanding the issue which can look like unnecessarily worry or - as many call pondering - the looking at all sides to come up with a good solution - some call that process worry - some cultures even have worry beads and so to my way of thinking there can be two sides to worry - the pondering or the agitation that comes with anxiety developing no plan to alter the situation. I've also experienced a few times to my shock and amazement, left alone some things take care of themselves and here I got into a stew over nothing.

Words are funny - I've been hit in the face recently how we use words to convey meaning based on our own history with words - I was talking with Katha last week about my concern that I had things on the old computer that still runs on Word 7 that I really need to transfer so I don't loose it to the newer computer and how someone we both know had set a link on both computers so I can easily transfer word documents from one to the other and I forgot how to use the link - and she was coming up with ideas that made no sense to me - we went on like this for minimum 5 minutes but more like 10- I kept saying how if a loose the old computer then I would still have the documents - well we laughed it  was my use of the word loose - she knew I don't use an iphone or a tablet but these large computers - she is thinking how on earth could I loose something that large - and of course I am thinking of loosing as the computer dying never to come back on again - after all it has to be at least 15 years old if not older.

That is why I've always loved posting and reading on Senior Learn - when everyone chips in their ideas there is always for me an aha or another way to look at something 

Which by the way Ginny, Wolsey is a figure in his imagination isn't he? It took two of his appearances and the way the wording was acted before it hit that Wolsey had already died and so this would be Cromwell's memory of how he thinks Wolsey would speak to him.  Hmmm I probably need to follow your lead and watch this again - don't know now if Wolsey is saying the words that is the 'right' conscious of Cromwell and that this exchange is acknowledging that Cromwell knows he is now not the man he was where as Wolsey was staying true to his convictions even on his way to his trial.

And yes, the movie the Conclave - have it on my list but have not watched it yet. I understand all those present at the Pope's called Conclave did watch the movie - from what I gather reading the various reports it was a lot of time that helped cement the bishops to Frances but nothing of value for the laity came out of the conclave - there is a book I have on my list to read titled Conclave - don't know if it is the book that was made into the movie or another story of a conclave -

[Frybabe]

Barb, Conclave is based on the book by Robert Harris. I have read his Cicero Trilogy and I have on my shelf and yet to be read An Officer and a Spy which was published just prior to Conclave. Act of Oblivion is in my extensive library Wish List somewhere. Harris also wrote five non-fiction books, all of which were published prior to his career as a novelist. Officer and a Spy and The Ghost Writer have each won several European awards, and Conclave won the USC Scripter Award in February. It also won some Oscar awards this year, but not for Best Picture. I completely missed that the awards were even held yet. Not that I watch them, but I usually am aware of when they are being held. I also have yet to watch the movie.

[ginny]

Barbara, that’s an interesting take on Wolsey appearing.   I took him as a ghost and all that entails. ( I used the close captioning and he clearly says almost immediately “when I was alive…”). Now I wonder for the first time why he  is there. I can’t find my Mirror and the Light book but I couldn’t  resist ordering another one —-they’re so cheap in paperback.  It will be here today.

And reading the reviews of it again,  I see people were put off by dream like sequences, the symbolic dreamlike sequences, when they wanted plot. I think I may have rushed through it too fast. It did not, like its two  predecessors,  win  the Booker. I want to read it again. Apparently there’s something in the book or movie  referring to the mirror and the light being Henry. And then the author has stated what the mirror is, in an interview, but unfortunately I didn’t pay any attention to it at the time.   I have not been able to figure out either of those symbolic metaphors at all. I was hoping the movie would fix that. 
 
Frybabe,  I wouldn’t have said Conclave was the best movie I have ever seen but it’s got some terrific performances in it.  I  think in particular Ralph Fiennes was  really quite good. However I have not been to the movie theater in years-  truly years-  so I don’t really—- I’m not up on the new movies.   

Frankly I thought if anything was being symbolized in the HenryVIII/ Cromwell Movie, it is the destructiveness of power.  I just happened to realize why that is interesting, in these two very different men. 

[Frybabe]

Okay, now I thing I might have to read Mirror and the Light. Do I have to read the books before? I think I have Wolf Hall somewhere. I think it is on my Kobo reader rather than my Kindle. I have to go look. Anyway, Ginny, your mention of dreamlike sequences and especially symbolic dreamlike sequences very much reminds me of Carl Jung and his archetypes and dream analysis.

[BarbStAubrey]

so much today - Ok first Ginny are the fires affecting your area - on the phone with my daughter who is getting ready to be on the safe side since the only thing between her and the fires is highway 26 which the fires have not jumped yet - their good friend from Austin who does live east of 26 is right in the middle of all this and it seems the firemen are no longer trying to stop the fires but rather as a house in in peril they post firemen outside and they keep dosing the house to save it - a couple of her friends' homes have been saved this way and none of them had been insured since they were affected by the flooding that the insurance did not cover and still have temporary roofs so the insurance companies will not insure them till they get a permanent roof installed. And now fires - both of these friends the trees and land all around the house are burned but the firemen were able to save the house - on top of all this her best friend's daughter is dying and there is no more the doctors can do - trying to support her with all of this and my experience with children dying is so different since before about 1960 it was not unusual and there was a way we as friends, neighbors and family traditionally helped each other and the family - this gave everyone a path of going forward however, all that is gone now since for decades the death of a child is unusual.

And Frybabe I searched and cannot find the 'post-it' that talked about not complaining but do something about whatever was creating worry or else let it go and accept - then it hit me - yes, after quite a bit of time searching - I had 3 of these bits of wisdom and the waste of complaining and what it was really accomplishing - and finally I got rid of all three after it hit me with all the bits I've read and saved that I had to accept I could not change anyone -

One of my sister's is a constant complainer - big issues and small - a lot of wanting the government to do this or that to help her situation - I was getting more and more annoyed - my brain went to, this is not how you were raised - what is this depending on someone other than yourself - if we heard once we heard hundreds of times out mother saying 'he who has the gold rules' - la la la - her emails were a choir to open and so I decided since there was no changing why frustrate myself - if that was how she wanted to live there was nothing I could do or say to change it and so instead of answering email immediately I waited a day or two - as a child she was a pouter and now as an elder it was not attractive - the few friends she had all of a sudden became busy with their family - and where I felt bad for her I could not fill the breach and so I got rid of everything that spoke of complaining and each day as I noticed difficult changes in my own life mostly because of aging I would say - do something or at least accept this is what happens ---

Yes, I still struggle - do not like seeing my sister in her stew and I'm so used to helping out this is difficult to let it, which means to me let her go... I do remember that in the 90s so many of us were into reading Wayne Dyer - He, along with so many were into eastern religions. At the time healing was the rage in Austin - every other church or park department community building had some sort of 12 step meeting that were packed from AA to Al-Anon, Adult Children of Alcoholics, Over Eaters anonymous, Over Spenders, a few for drug addicts, many for those affected by sexual abuse, on and on along with Battered Woman being housed with those of us in Real Estate contributing large sums to buy the Center. With all this going on part of what was on most people's lips came from reading and absorbing the Tao which is full of whatever happens leads us to the unknown that we can embrace or fight against which trying to hold off or fight against leads to wanting to feel better and that means for many an addiction. All that to say last night I found a few of Wayne Dyer's books on Amazon and just reading the free portion renewed so much for me that yes, he writes about 'doing' but also 'being' at peace with what we cannot or are unwilling to change. Thus the post-it about worry written by Wayne Dyer came from that thinking centered in the Tao.

OK books --- thanks for clearing up that the Conclave is both the movie and the book by Harris - not sure now - usually I like to read before seeing the movie version but I've so many book going glory only knows when I'd get to it and watching a movie at night is a satisfying way to end the day...

Ginny when you said 'it is the destructiveness of power' that got me thinking - there is this change in Cromwell compared to the earlier movie that I do believe came about witnessing the beheading of Anne so that he does not even care anylonger - he is hiding within his power and using it as he will but he is too smart to have made public his caring for Mary because he promised Kathrine - that at the end of that section says to me it is the carry over to the next part of the movie - to be that careless I think he is maybe not consciously but he is assuring his own demise that since I see him as a hollowed out man that he fills with using his power he is not only assuring his physical demise but also who he is which is now power. As to Henry I do not remember seeing anything or if I did it went right over my head as to his absorption of power that he uses for his own ends. Interesting his selfish use of power affects not only the nation but world history where as Cromwell's power is extinguished with his execution. hmm Maybe it is the level of power with Henry's power being more powerful.

As to Wolsey - just as I could quote my mother I really have no idea what she would say if she were alive - I can only imagine based on memory and my own attitude and beliefs which is what I think Cromwell does when we see Wolsey - this is theater and we cannot get into the mind of Cromwell and so to see his thinking this would be a devise - transfer his thoughts into words spoken, an argument made by a 'ghost'   

I'm curious now about Henry - is there any information about his childhood - I do not even know who his parents are - I've never read or even heard anything about him except as a king and I think it was Mantel who indicated or maybe it was a more recent Lucy Worsley investigation featured on PBS that Henry had difficulties sexually. Using what we know today about addiction he is clearly addicted to eating and to power and so what is his life experience that he responds this way - I can see he really feels inadequate therefore, all the bluster and selfishness - his prowess as a warrior is iffy at best since he really doesn't accomplish much in battles that is lasting because of the wars he fought.

[BarbStAubrey]

aha so Henry had an older brother Arthur who was to marry Catherine but when he died, his father's death bed request was that Henry marry Catherine to cement alliances with Spain and Catherine and Henry had a great marriage for about 15 years...

then found this tidbit...

In January 1536, while jousting at Greenwich, Henry VIII was unseated from his horse, and the horse, fully armored, landed on him.

Initial Injuries:
The King was unconscious for two hours, and his legs were crushed in the fall, potentially with fractures to his long bones.

Ulcer Development:
While the wounds initially appeared to heal, ulceration reappeared shortly afterwards, becoming particularly painful and difficult to manage during 1536–1538.
 
Long Term Effects
Some historians suggest that this accident, and the resulting leg ulcers, had long-lasting psychological effects on the King, possibly contributing to a change in his personality and increasingly tyrannical behavior.

Henry had not been fat at all in fact he'd been declared very handsome in his twenties he was a trained athlete he was about six foot one in height.
 

[Frybabe]

Here is the Serenity Prayer, somewhat forgotten these days I think: This is the whole prayer, not just the first bit which is all I ever knew of it.

The Serenity Prayer

God, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change
the courage to change the things I can
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time,
enjoying one moment at a time.
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace.
Taking, as he did, the sinful world as it is,
not as I would have it.
Trusting that he will make all things right
if I surrender to His will;
that I may be reasonably happy in this life,
and supremely happy with Him forever.

—Reinhold Niebuhr, 1892-1971

The first stanza was a popular saying to embroider or needlepoint when I was young.

[BarbStAubrey]

ah yes, a great reminder - thanks frybabe - sounds so simple but not easily accomplished and I remember one of the often times repeated phrase that if we bathe everyday than we need to be reminded daily of our path to serenity - recently I read how an Olympic athlete was struggling creating a meaningful spiritual life and he likened how everyday he practiced his running and therefore, he transferred the concept that to be really good at anything it had to be practiced daily. I forgot how important daily reminders are - they are not just a fun frivolous saying but rather taking the words and owning them along with the daily reminder of what is important to our sanity which is a connection to something greater than we are.

I'm full of questions about Henry and Cromwell - the slant I'm picking up from Mantel's Mirror and the Light about Cromwell is not matching what I've read in the past about the ruthless Cromwell who engineered every thing including the death of Anne. Well it could be that history is uncovering another version of Cromwell - in 2019 a new bio of Cromwell was published written by Diarmaid MacCulloch - that is showing a softer Cromwell - evidently many papers from this time in history were made available online from Oxford at great expense and time and skill - Mantel and MacCulloch knew each other and were in communication with each other while both were writing their books. In the Intro MacCulloch does say...

"Thomas Cromwell’s name has happily become much more familiar in the last decade, thanks principally to Hilary Mantel’s inspired novel series beginning with Wolf Hall. To call them ‘historical novels’ does them an injustice; they are novels which happen to be set in the sixteenth century, and with a profound knowledge of how that era functioned. Novels they remain, as Mantel herself has frequently (and with mounting weariness) emphasized to would-be critics. This book is different. It invites you, the reader, to find the true Thomas Cromwell of history, by guiding you through the maze of his surviving papers – and a real maze they are, composed of thousands on thousands of individual documents. The journey is worth making, because this Thomas Cromwell shaped a great revolution in his own country’s affairs, which has in turn shaped much of the modern world, not least that still-Protestant power, the United States of America."

And so of course I could not resist and downloaded the book along with the other main character that has peaked my interest mostly how did he become the insufferable tub of power we see in the Wolf Hall series. Never mind all the wives and all the shenanigans in court that came about because of or as a result of the wives... He obviously is addicted to food and to his selfish use of power that at times he has second thoughts but after the fact when it is too late to change course. And so I've also downloaded Tracy Borman's Henry the VIII and the Men Who Made Him.

Bits from the preface...
"In 1537, King Henry VIII instructed his favourite court painter, Hans Holbein, to begin work on a huge mural to decorate the wall of his privy chamber at Whitehall Palace...

It would be Holbein’s most ambitious commission to date. Although the finished mural was destroyed by fire in 1698, the details have been passed down to us, thanks to a copy that was made for Charles II, as well as to the cartoon that Holbein used for transferring the composition to the wall. It was intended to project the might of the Tudor dynasty, and showed Henry flanked by his wife and his late parents, Henry VII and Elizabeth of York...

Adopting an aggressive, warrior-like pose, he stands with his legs spread apart and his hands on his hips. With one hand he reaches towards an ornate dagger that hangs at his waist...
This would become the iconic image of Henry VIII and would be replicated in a host of subsequent portraits.

But Holbein’s masterpiece also reveals a deeper secret about the real man behind this intimidating exterior. At the centre of the picture is a Latin inscription. It describes the achievements of Henry and his predecessor:

Between them there was great competition and rivalry and [posterity] may well debate whether father or son should take the palm. Both were victorious. The father triumphed over his foes, quenched the fires of civil war and brought his people lasting peace. The son was born to a greater destiny. He it was who banished from the altars undeserving men and replaced them with men of worth. Presumptuous popes were forced to yield before him and when Henry VIII bore the sceptre true religion was established and, in his reign, God’s teachings received their rightful reverence. In short, Henry had achieved more than his father.

That Henry felt the need to assert his superiority over his late father at this point in his reign betrays his deep-seated insecurity, as well as the fear of parental disapproval that still plagued him almost thirty years after Henry VII’s death...

Holbein was one of many men who made Henry, but his influence was arguably greater than most, certainly in terms of shaping his master’s public image.

From these bits alone I am getting a picture of an insecure Henry that I saw as a little man - This is all you Ginny  you sharing your interest got me going so that my curiosity got the better of me... I need to say thanks  been reading for months now but not with this curiosity that for me has always made reading a joy...

[BarbStAubrey]

[ginny]

Barbara, we did have a small fire in this area before all the winds, but it never made the news and the firemen were on  it immediately, nothing like what we are seeing  on the news, first  in Myrtle Beach  SC and in the mountains of NC, nothing. It's quite unusual for us. I hope it pours rain for a week! Everywhere there is a fire out of control.

On Cromwell, you've made  a good choice with the Diarmaid MacCulloch, as he's a major scholar and so is his book. I bought it immediately when it came out, he writes beautifully but it is scholarly.  The hardback is still in my bedroom, I found it pretty impossible for night time reading, it's VERY heavy to try to read as you recline, BUT now that the Mirror and the Light is out and there is a Kindle version I may have to revisit it , and have moved it to the place I read in the day time. I have all sorts of questions, and he WAS the groundbreaker in this understanding of Cromwell.

There are so many things I don't understand about this "new" Cromwell we're seeing. He is rougher and not as....relatable as he was in the first two books (the Wolf Hall movie)...I wonder if the Ghost of Wolsey (yet to appear in my Mirror and the Light) is a movie addition or... or?  The thing about Cromwell promising her mother he'd look after her: that's so out of character for him to be sitting around with that crowd of trusted people laughing about it. Is it based on fact? If it is, MacCulloch will know. Interesting you mention Holbein as well, as Mantel's book has him disliking  Holbein's portrait of Cromwell. (I think that was in Bring Up  The Bodies, not overly sure), and wondering how Holbein got that "take" on him.

But already (and Mantel is still dealing with the plot),  The Mirror and the Light is following the movie beautifully and I feel able to "see" what's being said in the movie. My gosh at the cast of characters in the book  which you mentioned, though.

I have also been obsessed with Margaret Pole, (previously totally unknown to me), and how she figured in this very complicated Crowd With Claims to the Throne. Still not sure on her, either. I did read a short biography of her which helped somewhat.

Really enjoying the experience. So far. Amazing what I don't know about this period of history in Britain.

[Frybabe]

Another person of influence in that era, though not English, was Niccolo Machiavelli. His most famous work, Il Principe was not published until 1532, around five years after his death, and one year before Queen Elizabeth I was born. There are a number of scholarly papers on the subject of his influence on Queen Elizabeth I and British politics in general during her reign.

This morning I ran across a quote in the book I am reading now tying her ruling style to Machiavelli. Although he may not have influenced her rule directly, she may have come by it naturally, his writings likely reinforced her natural abilities.

...abstain from threats or any contemptuous expressions, for neither of these weaken the enemy, but threats make him more cautious, and the other excites his hatred and a desire for revenge.

This is a caution that is echoing my thoughts/fears about the current political situation, and I am quite surprised to run across it just this morning. According to my research, Machiavelli may not have come up with anything terribly original in his thoughts, but rather studied historical rulers and was able to pick out what generally works and what doesn't. He made a guidebook for rulers and would-be rulers that is still relevant today. And, of course, I have a copy somewhere, or did, but haven't read it.

[BarbStAubrey]

Ouch on Machiavelli - the thing I remember is not only does he say something like the ends justify the means but he also says a leader should expand their power even if it means committing immoral acts... Yikes... and yet we see it even today... As I recall the name of the book is The Prince. 

Have not started the Cromwell book yet - reading this book on Henry is enlightening in many ways - first chapter (Long Chapters) not only goes into his childhood and how he was raised and educated but ties together the relationships to those in the past and present especially those involved on his mother's side who, because she raised him along with his sisters unlike Arthur who was raised separately in another castle, Henry became closer to her side of the family adopting mostly her brother's viewpoints whom he was very close to and evidently takes his looks from her side of the family.

I never was an aficionado of British History - oh I knew the main whose and wherefores but each king was an individual with their accomplishments rather than a connection of families. If it was said it went right over my head that Wolf Hall was the ancestral home of the Seymours and exists today however not available to be used to make the film.

So far I am reading that Henry had little contact with his father although for the times his father took good care of Henry - with all the York influence I'm not seeing the connection why he would want his father's approval so badly as the early bit with the Holbein painting inferred - rather I'm getting that he represents a more antagonistic view of his father following the York viewpoint of him however, his father was far less ruthless.

Like you say Ginny none of this is easy swift reading - hoping I can get in enough of this history to make this coming Sunday's episode of Mantel's book more connected so that the change in Cromwell makes sense - my plan is to finish a chapter at a time switching back and forth between these two books...  Thank goodness it is raining again today so I can read without feeling guilty for putting off the painting of some shelves and baskets I started. I need to be two of me here of late...

[PatH]

Frybabe, that's a very good example of Machiavelli's typical approach.  Another one: If you have to enlist an ally in fighting someone, try to make it someone weaker than you, not stronger, for the stronger man might turn on you next once the common enemy is defeated, and the weaker man won't.

Il Principe didn't make it to Portland, darn it,  but I've read it several times, though not recently, also a comic romantic play, with what was a standard plot of the times.

[BarbStAubrey]

Pat could not find anything that talked about or showed Il Principe to be a comic romantic play - this is all I could find... by any chance do you have a link or can you share a bit about the play.

The Prince is an explosive homoerotic prison drama set in a repressive 1970s Chilean prison.
https://youtu.be/KvT9nBtq4tU?si=BiDPgtLqhl44iIXj

[BarbStAubrey]

[Frybabe]

Oh great! Not a movie I would like to see, heavily edited or not.  I remember the news about the disappearances and torture that happened during Pinochet's reign. As far as The Prince is concerned, I just discovered that there was/is some controversy over whether or not it was actually written as a satire. I don't recall ever seeing or hearing about it, but on investigation, there are quite a few articles and lectures to be found about the hypothesis.

[ginny]

And  Machiavelli  is another one I don't know much about! They seem to be piling up here lately instead of diminishing.

 I realized this morning that I am very excited to see tomorrow night's presentation of the Henry VIII/ Cromwell saga. It's been a long time since I had to wait for anything cinematic, and it's kind of fun. Takes you back to the old  TV days when  you couldn't buy it all on  DVD first and binge watch, and you waited in great anticipation to see what they would do this week,

The Mantel Mirror and Light book is apparently the play list for the movie, they are moving page by page in the film as they are in the book,  as well, and it explains a lot about motivation and behind the scenes. And the dialog in the movie is straight out of the book. So far the movie, I think, has covered the first  48 pages of the book, so far, so it will either be the longest movie in history or..... There are 750 some pages in the paperback.

It really IS so interesting to see how the two genres, literary and theater, choose to  present the same material.

[ginny]

PS: The New York Times, onlline, and readable with or without a subscription, has a good article on the new movie, and their own take on the ghost appearances and on the meaning of the title. I actually think they are right in the identity of the Mirror and of the Light: it never occured to me.  It will be interesting to see what everybody who watches it thinks.

[BarbStAubrey]

Ginny tried to read the article in the NYTimes and it won't let me in without a subscription - it took my signing on using my Google account but that was as far as it let me continue without a subscription - would you consider sharing one or two of the thoughts included in the review...

Reading these two books I am getting much background and the names of so many - picking out the ones used by Mantel is interesting and frankly without watching again the first Wolf Hall I am not sure whose who - So far nothing outstanding about Margaret Poole - she is simply a sister of Henry VIII mother Elizabeth. I have learned the huge resentment Henry VIII had with his father - seems probably in his own grief that he handled by isolating he abandoned his son Henry VIII who had no one to turn to - the experience stayed with him along with his parents, again in their grief abandoning him and his sister when the younger sister died - as to the death of very young Edward, he was older and always saw the young Edward as reducing his role as the spare.

Evidently the father became more and more miserly as he aged, keeping a notebook where he noted every expense by the minute it occurred and doing all sorts of math computations with his funds. It seems the father had TB for about 4 years or more before his death - also the father became more suspicious of everyone as he aged since his life was all about proving he was king and not some usurper - so much so that he had arranged during those final years that Henry VIII could not access his rooms without going through his father's rooms therefore no privacy.

Another surprise to me is that Henry VIII had several children including male children out of wedlock - he did acknowledge one and so whatever the deal was with all those wives and not being able to conceive a boy was not because of his lacking.

Reading about his childhood and how at the age of 6 you are no longer consider a child and at the age of 13 you are considered an adult puts a new spin on the story for me - knowing he was such the athlete and because of the accident he then ate himself into the tub he became I can now see he was probably unhappy with life not being able to do the physical things he relished and he had to have experienced much pain for months after the accident along with the pain of feeling alone that he filled with friends that after the accident the kind of friend changed.

He was already since childhood a gregarious personality and with little left to him but his power as king I'm getting a more sympathetic understanding - his use of power was never honed - he did not admire his father and another death, he admired the leadership style and the person, Philip I of Castile, brother-in-law of Catherine of Aragon however, eight months after their meeting he is dead. He is more like his grandfather but that is fraught with all sorts of stop signs affecting the balance of power for his father.

Another surprise how well educated he was in all things, music, art, culture as well as the usual rhetoric etc. and growing up many of his closest friends were his tutors. He could play several instruments as well as his love for hunting and horsemanship - He was also considered quite good looking even through his 20s - actually until the accident with the horse landing on top of him.

As to Cromwell - easy to see now why he and Woolsy were sympathetic to each other - they were both self made when the upper wealthy were only first accepted as a class of people to be reckoned with. So far only reading of his rise to power and nothing yet that indicated a change although his demise has been spoken of as self inflicted. So far no surprises learning astonishing new things.   

[PatH]

Barb, you couldn't find the play in The Princebecause it isn't there.  I guess I wasn't clear.  Machiavelli wrote one or more plays on the side, and this was one of them.  It's been over 20 years since I read it, and I don't remember much about it, but it's certainly cynical enough for him. I'll take a look for it.

[PatH]

I found it!  it's called The Mandrake, and the name reminds me of the plot

[PatH]

My rough, probably inaccurate, memory of the plot:
The Mandrake is a medicinal plant.  Because it's root is shaped like a little man, it was thought to have various strengthening properties.  A rich, very old man is married to a very young woman. He wants a child, but is incapable.  She prepares a brew of Mandrake, assuring it will strengthen hm, which it does, slightly (probably power of suggestion.)
A child results, and the husband is happy, not realizing it's really the child of his wife's young lover.

I don't recommend the play.

[BarbStAubrey]

ahh - thanks Pat -somehow I'm remembering the story of the Mandrake but had no idea it was a play or written by Machiavelli - I'm remembering it as a story that was to us a myth - a story we shared back when we were young teens and anything titillating was the topic of the day. Far better than the movie that I did not even want to get into by seeing a preview...

Evidently Henry VIII is following the advise you remembered from Machiavelli - during his early years as king he surrounds himself with a large group of young men, all athletic and quite educated however pointedly not as intelligent as he --- "Henry willed it: his male companions should complement rather than outshine him."

 

[BarbStAubrey]

Here we go... tra la... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mandrake

OK and this next one is the play itself that at the end there is this addition...
https://vtheaterthoughts.wordpress.com/2013/07/20/the-mandrake-by-niccolo-machiavelli/

"According to Mary O’ Brien in Reproducing the World: Essays in Feminist Theory,  “this superstitious vision of a mysterious biological force threatening the integrity of man’s sexual potency and reproductive power” in La Mandragola reveals Machiavelli’s belief that women is what threatens the order of the patriarchy and polity. Ideal politicians should be like austere priests with the single-mindedness to perform “necessary evils” for the common good."

Haven't read anything to verify however, my guess is with Catherine it was hi ho lets have a great time together since his life seemed to be outwardly at least all about having a fun life and offering others a means for a fun life where as I'm thinking after the accident - haven't read that far yet but my guess is he came face to face with his mortality and the 'common good' became apparent.

[PatH]

I remember reading somewhere That Henry VIII had syphyllis, presumably from one or more of his sexual encounters, and that was the cause of his suspiciousness, which is a common result of the disease.  Also, that the disease was the cause of Prince Edwards' bad health, and that Edwards' face, in paintings, shows the common appearance of children with the disease.

[ginny]

I didn't make heads or tails out of that one last night! I think my main problem was essentially who ARE these people? The new actors, I can't get straight who they are supposed to be, especially when they intersperse old bits of the  Wolf Hall series, your mind wants to see the original characters, especially among the young ones.  I'm going to arm self with the Cast of Characters in the book and go from there. I do know who Call Me is, but he looks a lot like one of the others.

Barbara, sorry, I'll get a couple of the salient quotes  from the article, and put them in later today. It looks like that actress at the end should be Lady Rochford, from the first Wolf Hall films. She was so nasty I thought I'd recognize her but this one's  a new actress,  too. And for heaven's sake, I never heard of Wolsey's daughter before this?!!!!  A marriage proposal? To a nun.

I'm going to have to read on in the book to find out what's going on!  I mean one minute Henry is impressed with his daughter Mary and in the next she can't understand why she can't go back to the court and I can't either.  I didn't realize she wasn't.  Apparently she hasn't signed "the paper?" But I thought she did? Jeepers!

[ginny]

The NY Times made several points which of course are copyright so I'll sort of paraphrase them with credit to them,  or quote them directly briefly. Ir's a  super article.

They note that Cromwell is beginning to make mistakes and to "give into his emotions," making a solemn mood in this film not present in the other.

This, I thought, was interesting:

"
Picking up on a device from the novel, “The Mirror and the Light” continually drops in snippets of Cromwell’s guilty memories in the form of bits of film we have already seen across the two series."

I keep trying to figure out the ghost appearances and the bits of the former movie put in this one.

I have to quote this one, too, as I could not have written it so well:

"These plot elements, given equal play with the court politics and battles over religion that actually determined Cromwell’s fate, are a way to soften the character — to suggest a compassion and rectitude under the brutal realpolitik (traits that the historical record does not necessarily support)."

They think Lewis's performance as Henry VIII is the bright spot in the film. What do you all  think if you've seen it?

[BarbStAubrey]

I agree Ginny it was difficult to watch - his tearful regretful scene was stunning however I cannot understand since he was in London and tapped by Henry VIII, which he saw as a way to help Wolsey however, Wolsey's daughter has a different understanding and we did see in this storyline that Wolsey was asking for Cromwell during his final sick days -

As to the daughter, I doubt seriously she was an Nun - for hundreds of years it was usual for young girls and women to find safety and solace inside the convent walls and while there they lived as a nun without taking vows - being the daughter of Wolsey that would be par for the course - she is in effect illegitimate since Priests much less Bishops are not supposed to have relations with women - however, it is still an issue and there are to this days secret groups that gather often, who are children of priests, bishops and cardinals and from what I understand, not currently but not in the distant past either, children of Popes. These 'children' mature with all sorts of issues - their entire life they are kept as one big secret.

Actually my thought was also, was he all this regretful because his plan did not work and if he had only... My guess was, the plan was to look as if he was not involved with someone at court which would give Henry cause to obliterate him - he could show that he was 'married' and he thought Dorothea's situation so uncomfortable it would be easy to offer her an escape - He should have guessed when he already knew, this was a very wealthy convent so she would be very comfortable - in that her father did well choosing a place to hide her.

By now I am thoroughly confused - my take was to feel sorry for him since he not only was helping Wolsey but step by step got caught up in trying to shake his childhood lack of power by doing what it takes to never feel like that again and in the process got caught up in Henry's thirst for Power - the more I'm reading about Henry I realize he was brought up as a child to get whatever he wanted 'immediately' - He commanded attention based on his good looks and gay personality but also he witnessed as a young child his father's ruthless killing of those who threaten plus, he was always needing to prove himself to be unlike but 'more' than his father, as a result I am seeing the signs he is a raging narcissist... and there is no making sense out of the narcissist - there is no way you can win or even keep your sanity - for protection you give up and give up so that you are no longer doing a job as your own person but only as the extension of the narcissist who has a way of taking and taking and not only making you feel dependent upon the narcissist but you are nothing without the power of the narcissist.... Yep, personal experience that took 10 years of heavy therapy and another 10 years of various 12 step meetings before  I could move on and still the affects rear their head. My explanation is in a nutshell what I learned and so the tearful regretful scene was not easy to watch. 

However, now as I say I am confused because reading the Cromwell bio is giving a different view of Cromwell's childhood and his leaving home which may not be at all an escape from brutality but rather, it sounds more like a typical teen who thinks what is expected at home is for the birds so that running away was a real thing - now they run into drug use --- Regardless his 'flight' abroad was an education in itself...

I'm beginning to see Cromwell as knowing the value of power and accumulating it, realizing his past contacts could be a source of knowledge, connection and power. If so, yes, he got caught up in Henry's narcissism but not to have power to make up for his lack of power as a child but rather, continuing as he seems to live his life - the recurrent let's try this and let's do that so that he blew it with Wolsey and his tears are the result of recognizing he blew it which I think are sincere however, I think he also recognizes his blunder now puts him on a road he has no easy fix for - he is in unknown territory... recriminations for having blown it but also, for the first time he is really sailing unknown seas that can be dangerous beyond his ability to handle.

If I had not been reading Cromwell's bio by MacCulloch knowing he was in friendly contact with Mantel as both were knee deep into information made available when the monster size dump of Cromwell's papers were put online - this observation from Sunday night's episode would not have occurred to me  - to me the pivotal scene was the scene with Cromwell in tears with the lead-up, his scene with Dorothea - Is Mantel writing this based on the knowledge most of us have of Cromwell or is she writing it based on the knowledge she has accumulated from the  monster size dump of Cromwell's papers.

[BarbStAubrey]

Links I found before Sunday night's showing...

https://onthetudortrail.com/Blog/

https://www.rmg.co.uk/stories/topics/how-many-children-did-henry-viii-have

Pat it appears that it is a persistent rumor about Henry having syphilis - there are many who have looked into it and at the time not only was the disease known but there was a treatment where you were bedridden taking Mercury for some say 5 and others 6 weeks - it seems among all the papers from Henry there is no paper showing the purchase of Mercury - however there is an article that says women can have the disease with no outward signs however they end up loosing one infant after the other and with that there is the possibility Katherine of Aragon with all her miscarriages and babies that died quickly after birth she could have had syphilis.

The first blog link has a further link on that main page of the blog to the 5 most common rumors which includes this one about Henry VIII.   

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes Ginny, I am shocked at how seamlessly religious organizations are an integral part of government  - reading further in the Cromwell book and it was overload forgetting this was a bio of an historical figure - Bishops were as much if not more a part of government than those who support and advise the king or any of the lower 'department heads' for want of a better word.

Reading Cromwell is actually giving me a window into the current Pope who appears to have taken up the role of international politics like no other in my lifetime but now I see this was a common role rather than the anomaly many of us are struggling to even comprehend much less accept. I must admit where the media was not as involved in what happened in and from the Vatican until more recently therefore, we had no clue but, it appears John Paul II was knee deep in International politics. Although, I don't see any evidence that Bishops in Europe or any other part of the world are as snug with the local governing bodies - what shocks me more in this story as in Cromwell's bio is that Bishops are still being chosen and placed by the king - I was given to understand that was fought out and stopped so that only the Pope could appoint Bishops to their positions by this time in History - more for me to look into...

[BarbStAubrey]

[Frybabe]

That is a great quote, Barb. One to remember.

All interesting posts about Cromwell, et al. It makes me wonder if I really want to know more about them than I already know (not much). The whole thing seems rather sordid, disgusting, horrifying. Kind of reminds me a little of Thomas à Becket and what happened to him. Interesting that he was not a priest when nominated and ordained, but was confirmed and consecrated a month following his conformation to the post of Bishop of Canterbury.

[BarbStAubrey]

frybabe regardless what I read about this time in history the characters, royal or not are all a horror compared to what we know and acknowledge now as wholesome behavior. A couple of hundred years later but Marie Antoinette follows The Mirror... and it also is one shock to the system after the other - These drama's are so well acted and the costumes and scenery is so outstanding - then I see some of the behavior still playing out today with the split as to what and who is right or wrong - I'm old enough I could turn it all off and do only the things I love which is often the recommendation and yet, like an unhealthy sweet with outstanding beautiful icing decorating the cake I succumb and only afterwards think of how it was not a good thing for my system to digest. haha I just thought, that is where Cromwell found himself in this last episode - oh lordy.   

[BarbStAubrey]

Here is another that is similar to the one about taking off into the wind

[Tomereader1]

I was over in Seniors & Friends, after a long absence and noticed that someone actually missed me posting.  I have been around, not peeking in or posting, but my computer is so hinky nowadays, that I can only stay on line for about 20 or 30 minutes, until it locks up and I have to go thru all kinds of permutations just to get to a shut down screen. Anyway, I am here, for awhile, and have been enjoying the conversation about The Mirror and the Light.  I haven't watched it yet, but did DVR it.

[BarbStAubrey]

so glad you posted tomereader - we're anxious to hear your thoughts after you get a chance to watch your video of Mantel's book.

[ginny]

Tome!! How good to see you, jump right in when you can.

And we  look forward to  your thoughts!

 Well I am finally to Dorothea in this TOME of a book, The Mirror and the Light. She first appears on page 249, so the film is  about 1/3 of the book so far, give or take.

Barbara, that was interesting on why she probably wasn't a nun. I did not know that! In  Dorothea Wosley's case, she is, however, a nun, having taken the orders and calling herself to Cromwell a nun on page 240. Apparently there's a brother, too, out of the country .   His name is Thomas Winter.

All through the book have been references to  "light." I never have a pencil so have folded the corners of the pages, it looks like it has run into a train.  But the "light" means different things. I find myself wishing we WERE discussing it, as I'm sure some of you would see things I don't.

For instance, here's one on "light," Cromwell examining the sword the French executioner used to cut off Ann Bolyn's head:  "He saw the light flash on the steel, and he saw that words were written on the blade; he drew his finger over them. Mirror of Justice, Speculum iustitiae. Pray for us." Page 159.

Now what does THAT mean? Some people when reading a book deny that the author may be burying clues. I wonder. I really do. But I am not sure what here is intended. Is he actually trying to justify in his own mind her beheading?

But the mentions continue in different guises, I don't think it's a happenstance. 

Then there's this about the possiblity that Cromwell in the movie and the book realizes he actually let Cardinal Wolsey down, when he thought he was helping him at court:

Page 147-148: "He wonders, can you help seeing ghosts? "( First mention of seeing ghosts)...."Don't they just turn up and make you see them? When people raise the cardinal's name, he asks himself: if I had been with him in the north, would he have succumbed---to poison , to fear, to whatever.  Some said it was self-slaughter. ..." followed by a long description of the Cardinal's trip north....."If he had known how it would end, he thinks, what would I have done different?"

I think Barbara mentioned guilt earlier about the tears. He seems to really be stunned that he did not act in the Cardinal's best interest.  Can you be guilty if you did not intend the sin? Sins of omission?


Dorothea seems VERY angry at Cromwell, and we in the book  are about to find out why. Bit long explanation, like a movie, really, "Thomas More's sneers..." etc. And then we're jerked back into the present.

  This subchapter is called Wreckage II. Then the proposal and he keeps trying to figure out her objections, he's too old, etc., etc., he seems honestly clueless as to why she really dislikes him, until on page 245, he says, "Well then....I think it is my religion itself you do not like. I love the gospel and will follow it.  Your father understood that."

"He understood everything, "she says. "He understood you betrayed him."

And that's where I finally  stopped.

WOW!   

[BarbStAubrey]

Interesting that he says Wolsey knew he loved and would follow the gospel because reading the book on Cromwell, I did not know but he was one of those pushing to get out from under the Pope which I thought came more from Henry and Cromwell thought it was useful but evidently as much or more so the push came from Cromwell - Thomas Cromwell’s enthusiasm for the Reformation was a constant force in shaping his public career and policy," He is the one who urges not to use the word 'Protestant' Reformation since it is associated with Luther and the creation of the Lutherans - the term he urges during the English Reformation to distinguish it as switching to the Church of England is Evangelical - and so yes, he would love and follow the gospel but not as a Catholic which is where the loyalty of Wolsey and his daughter lies.

Ok Mantel may say Dorothea is a nun but hmm I wonder - I found information that she was placed in Shaftesbury Abbey, a convent known for housing daughters of wealthy individuals. That John Clancey, alderman of Worcester, adopted Dorothy and arranged for her placement in Shaftesbury Abbey.

https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/drama/wolf-hall-dorothea-wolsey-daughter-explained/#:~:text=Meanwhile%2C%20Dorothy%20was%20adopted%20by,nun%20until%20it%20was%20dissolved.

However this website says she did become a nun...

https://tudorsdynasty.com/wolseys-mistress-and-children/

Nun or not it was typical for hundreds of years to set women aside by committing them to a convent or for the safety and care they were sent to a convent usually by a male family member - also young boys were sent to monasteries, often even accepting Holy Orders (sacrament to become a priest as a nun takes vows) however, the only reason the boys were sent to monasteries was for an education that was not available other than in monasteries. Upon completion of their education they left and lived the life of a lay person.

The benefit to the convent is that you do not become a nun, even my sister back in the 1950s without bringing to the convent a good size dowry and of course if from a wealthy family the dowry was generous - I remember when my sister was about to take her vows the dowry was expected and we were not a monied family - example of what was expected... in 1947 my parents purchased their first house and the 3 bedroom house cost $8,000 At the time there was no such thing as a 30 yr mortgage or anything less than a 20% down payment - the longest mortgages were for 25 years and that was based on the husband being of age so that he had 25 more years of working full time - my father only had 20 years and so he was able to obtain a 20 year mortgage. My sister took her vows in 1954 and the expected dowry was $2,000 (today equals about 24K) - more than the price of a new Ford or Chevy auto and a quarter of the price for the house purchased 7 years earlier - My father was able to talk the Mother Prioress into accepting $1,500 (today equals about $18,000) and to pay off $500 at so much a month for 2 years -  All to say accepting anyone to live out their years in a convent was a money earner for the Order (Order e.g.; Dominican or Franciscan or Sister's of Charity etc.) therefore, this practice of placing girls and women in convents was only available to those who could afford it.

As to the cost for placing a young boy in a monastery I have no clue what that transaction looked like - Most websites today deny that Petrarch was educated in a monastery as were his brothers however, reading one of his books he not only says he was educated in a monastery in the south of France located near Avignon and although he was ordained left after he completed his education where as, his one brother was educated in a Carthusian (monastic order of priests) monastery in northern France where he remained. 

https://www.freedomgpt.com/wiki/monasteries-served-as-centers-of-learning

As to his feeling guilty - like you, looking from the outside in, he 'should' not feel guilty - the operative word is 'should' - many of us take on guilt when things, as they say 'go bump in the night' believing we should have done something to prevent what happened.

For some reason Cromwell takes it hard to hear Dorothea say with all sincerity and in all its harshness what no one has said to him before except possibly when he was a boy being or feeling criticized - I don't think he sees his staying in London to help Wolsey as a favor to Wolsey since along the way he has enjoyed the power he has accumulated and I think in his head he has mixed up his purpose for staying rather than be at the side of Wolsey.  However, that pivotal scene is still up for grabs for me -

I can't help wonder is he lamenting that he did not go to Wolsey - or - that Dorothea has beliefs he knows he cannot convince her to refute - or - that he blew it as to how it looks and made an enemy of Dorothea which could mean others share her viewpoint and he lost some supporters - or - did he blew it and now has no way to refute the rumors about his dalliance with a women at court that will reach Henry's ears if it has not already and he has no way to protect himself on top of learning from Dorothea his reputation may be in tatters if others share her viewpoint.

Reading just Mantel I come up with one scenario however, reading Cromwell written by an author in communication with Mantel gives me another picture of Cromwell and so what does Mantel mean to convey with that scene. Maybe it is up for grabs and each reader/movie watcher will take from it what they will because it will turn out the storyline is not as dependent on that scene as it appears watching this story play out piecemeal.

Wait just a minute - doesn't the steps of grief go into how one step has you going through an 'if' - if only, if I had, if I knew, if-if-if - maybe the tear scene is simply grief, that is never simple but instead of all this breadcrumb trail of guilt or finding the greater meaning to justify but rather, simply grief that one of the steps includes 'what ifs' - It's the step called the bargaining step - 'what if' I went north to be with Wolsey he may have recovered or at least not have such a harsh opinion by not seeing I really loved him.

Reading these other books on Cromwell and Henry including one I  have not started but downloaded on Wolsey compared to just reading Mantel's books is not clarifying anything - if anything yes, a deeper understanding of each however, at the expense of confusing Mantel's book and trying to figure out the slant she is taking while telling her story.

Ginny have you had a chance yet to open your copy of Cromwell by MacCulloch - my take is there is almost as much information about the monster size drop of Cromwell's papers as the story of Cromwell.

[BarbStAubrey]