The Library

[BarbStAubrey]

wow how great - to touch a book that was read and handled by people we read about today seems to me to be almost sacred... for sure profound...

I'm thinking back to my own travels and remember visiting Hampton Court however it was before all the restoration so that it was a large empty cavernous space and since my focus in the 1970s was needlework I was more interested in things like windows that with the light now flooding into indoor space it allowed women to do needlework and frankly it never crossed my mind at the time or for years later that Hampton Court was the home of Henry VIII - if rooms could talk as my mother used to say and in this case I wonder if we would hear anything not already noted by a writer or if we would only hear the benign of everyday frustrations and getting on with it.   

Been thinking more Ginny about your wonderment of why now has this story of Henry and Cromwell captured so many and I came across a link to a book I already owned and forgot I owned it - The Bright Age A New History of Medieval Europe - Yes before Henry's time however this bit caught my attention...

"If we as a culture decide that the Middle Ages existed and had a beginning and end, we don’t need to start with decline, darkness, or death. We can start in this shining, sacred, quiet space. This doesn’t, of course, erase the violence of the past to replace it with naive nostalgia. Instead, it shows us that paths taken were not foreordained. Shifting our perspective brings people, traditionally marginalized in other tellings, into focus. Starting somewhere else shows us possible worlds."

I thought the same could be said of this time we are reading about - yes, much violence, fear of being on the wrong side of someone powerful, blood on the hands of many while surrounded with opulence and I wondered what could be taken from Mantel's trilogy or probably better would be what could be taken from this power struggle and the violent deaths during the life of Henry VIII that lead to other perspectives and other worlds - what positive additions to our civilization came out of this time that we are overlooking by not focusing also on other perspectives.

Oh I can think of things like the needlework we still have preserved and designs copied from the Tudor Court women or as you shared the books that were so beautifully illustrated and used by those we are reading about or even the parks and great houses as well as castles that were examples of architecture, gardening, recipes from the kitchens but what did this time add to our culture, our ways of governing ourselves, how we changed or activities we adopted from examples of this time and also did this time help with the understanding of ourselves   

I did look up this sweating sickness and surprised to learn it reduced the population by as much as 50% with 5 major outbreaks between 1485 and 1551, that affected the Tudor court and feared by those in royal circles - still to this day the cause is has not been discovered and at the time there was no known cure. Evidently you were dead within hours or at best a day later... when the sickness disappeared it never returned. You don't read about any precautions taken by those who were at court or in the presence of even the queens - how did they soldier on I wonder with this sickness over their heads - we do know Cromwell's son was a victim - was that before or after the death of Cromwell I wonder...

But to my curiosity, after reading that bit about positives from the Middle Ages that for instance the chapel in Ravenna with its jeweled glass tiles was given as an example. However, that is back to the concept of the arts during dark or violent times being passed down - hmm just thought - both Cromwell and Wolsey did the impossible for that time in history when the population was so regulated by class - regardless of what became of them they both broke the  strong social culture of class which could be an examination of how they did it - the fact that Cromwell was executed was not because he broke into the highest level of this class system because others who were born into royalty were equally executed and so I do not know if this is the first example of bettering your situation in life or not however, that it could be done has to be a positive from the story of the Tudors  - hmm I wonder what else has been overlooked as we have focused on Henry and his march for power.

[BarbStAubrey]

sheesh Ginny that is a lot of trees that came down and I never knew there was an old growth forest of Dogwood - how magnificent - I do remember when we lived in Kentucky driving through the mountains this time of year and seeing a sea of white with green between - forgot about that - it was magical -

Bellamarie are you planning on replacing the Dogwood with another - oh you will never see it as old and grown as the one you were forced to remove but it could be a tree to look forward to enjoying during future Springs...

I know I'm struggling with what to plant to replace a huge old Oak in the backyard I lost last year in the storm - forgot know if it was the hurricane of they had a name for it but rain that was so heavy in such a short time with horizontal wind that it toppled many trees or maybe it was the tornado that came through and touched down in short spurts taking my screen door and doing much damage in nearby Cypress Texas where it took several homes and caused the death of several including a mother of 5. Anyhow the loss of that tree has allowed too much scorching sun during August and September that has damaged some flowering peach trees and so I need to get some shade back there - don't know if I should get a quick growing but not solid lasting tree or a sturdy tree like a slower growing Oak.  Then I'd have to do something to shade the peach trees.

Ginny after the removal of all the downed trees will you attempt a replanting or just leave it to what nature does   

[BarbStAubrey]

hmm a personal note - remember the other day when I put up the bit of wisdom about being in a dark place as being planted - for me I don't come to that realization till after I've struggled for awhile however, everytime I'm in a dark place where I have no answers and feel yes, like I've been buried I always end up turning to my dogeared with hundreds of paper place markers where something meaningful was said in my Allison Peers translation of St. John of the Cross's Ascent of Mount Carmel and then I realized that thinking, finding the positive that allows me to grow or at least see glimmers of sunlight was the basis for being attracted to the idea presented in The Bright Ages... that prompted my curiosity about what lasting good, other than the arts, came out of what is really a Dark Period of History during the time of Henry, in fact all the Tudors... hmm I wonder if that is the understanding of myself that came as a result of understanding, through Mantel's trilogy this Tudor history with its supportive court characters party to this dark time in history.

[BarbStAubrey]

[BarbStAubrey]

did not want to look like I was hogging up the discussion but can't hold off any longer - frybabe your recommendation of I See You've Called in Dead by John Kennedy was one of the best books I've read in years... I pulled an all nighter last night - started the book around 8: last night and could not stop reading till I finished it about 8: or soon after this morning - this book is riveting...

It starts with such unexpected incidents that had me laughing out-loud - and for about half the book any reference to the incidents was cause for a gawf or a giggle however, the story opens into some serious questions and understandings all done so well there is no feeling of 'this is too deep' or 'this is too sad' to continue... Yes, he inadvertently while drinking too much after a couple of crazy encounters he knocked over his drink while he was writing a mock obituary of himself and when retrieving the glass and spilled contents the side of his hand hits keys on the computer - result his obit becomes world wide news since he works for a Newspaper in the Obit writing department that was the site he used to type what he thought he would erase - of course the reason for writing the obit is a hilarious story in itself.

Even the Obit is hilarious as he pads it with false information and then not thinking he shows up for work on Monday without access ability to his office on and on with employees and his boss shocked to see him alive -and then his experience goes into the hoops everyone now experiences since everything is AI and the technology that runs companies does not accept he is alive - on and on -

There is an ex wife and the pain of learning the circumstances why she became an ex on top of his other family deaths - a new friend, a paraplegic who owns and rents him his apartment upstairs and other characters that includes a fellow worker, who is gay but not flaming and a good friend without wanting the friendship to be based on straight versus gay and his boss, who had become one of his best friends after being in the office late when the phone call comes in that his Bosses wife suddenly died of cancer so that he drives him and helps him through. There is the 8 year old neighbor child who is acting out by counting and noting everything on a notepad after his sister's death - there are additional characters all whom have their issues so that each chapter ends up as an opening to a new understanding or new questioning and some chapters are an uplifting viewpoint of acceptance or how to go on... this book is amazing - so readable without being heavy and is perfect for anyone going through a dark time in their life -

Frankly for me I've been struggling with my aging - no longer driving was a biggie since driving for me represented freedom with personal safety - another is there are no friends left to chit chat with and now that my legs are not working well and I am dependent on the walker along with getting tired so easily I feel more like a prisoner than someone who can create things much leas a meaningful or fun filled day.  I've lived through many challenges in my life and believed in time I would come to terms with my new reality but it was leaving me struggling on the verge of depression which is also an issue that is addressed in this unbelievable story - reading this has given me a new focus and I am seeing the early morning light - not the sun yet but I know that it will be next by hanging onto some of what I've read in this book 

and so Frybabe this book you suggested may have sounded like a good time laugh to read, which it is but it is so much more - thanks...

Napped this afternoon and the book has stayed with me - a wonderful testament to be thankful for our life and an attitude recommended that can make the day a joy rather than feeling like being stuck in any kind of underground vault so to speak.   

[Frybabe]

You are welcome, Barb. It will be a while til I get to read it. My online library only has one copy, so far, with a six month wait time.

Now I am wondering if anyone has read any of Fredrik Backman's books aside from A Man Called Ove? As I was cruising around in the library this morning I happened upon him again. The library has 10 of his books on offer, all of which have a wait list.  One, called Anxious People, has 20 copies and a nine week wait. Barb, this book is about a failed bank robber who takes hostage a group of people, including an 87 year old, attending a real estate open house.

[ginny]

Gosh that's a great book review, Barbara, it sounds hilarious.  And it sounds a must read, too. Thank you for mentioning it, Frybabe.

Barbara mentioned having looked up the Sweating Sickness, I am not sure why I didn't ,  I have now, what a frightening thing it must have been. Wikipedia thinks Henry VIII's older brother may have died from it. I can't believe I am quoting Wikipedia. Should I be quoting  AI instead?

I read the article hoping it would mention that to avoid the plague of sweating sickness (which they now think is a type of Hantavirus!! Recently in the news, too.  OR maybe anthrax.)  But somewhere I read that in the summer...at the King's....what did they call it,  yearly trips to stay away from London and to visit the countryside? Can't think of the name to save my life, but they MAY in fact have been to get him away from contagion and into the fresh air.   There's a word for it. It's not peregrination or pilgrimage,.....what IS it!! Driving me nuts.  Progress? The king's progress?

And tonight's the night! Very excited but a little apprehensive, too, because there are only three episodes left and we know it doesn't end well.

And of course there's Rylance's performance. I'm not as sympathetic to his Cromwell this time, he's changed a little bit, (what ACTING!!!) but I sure hate to see him get hurt after the job Mantel did on making him likeable.

And yes, I'm with you, about giving up things I always did without even thinking about them.

And no we're not going to try to replant the main woods where the tornado came through but leave it to reforest itself. You can't tell it unless you venture in. The forestry people have been out and gave their thoughts on it as well.

OH and on the tree replacement for the oak in your yard?  Are those bearing peach trees (make real peaches?) or ornamental peach trees? I ask because here in SC peaches, the ones which make a crop, are grown in full sun.

[BarbStAubrey]

Ginny they appear to be ornamental however you have no idea the searing sun in August and September - far more than even in Austin but then I did have pretty good tree cover in Austin however you could go out and walk, run or bike ride mid day - here there is no way - it is not that the temp is that much hotter - probably about 3 to 5 degrees hotter on the same day as Austin therefore close to and over 100 as a norm - but the sun is different somehow and actually scorches plantings that have to be wrapped or netted for protection however, most have a nearby tree that will shade them for an hour or two - this scorching sun starts its burn about 2: to 2:30 in the afternoon and goes on till nearly 7: in the evening - it is as if the earth in South Texas, which Houston is a part, is an anvil with the heat that can melt metal from the fireball of the sun -

When I used to drive to my daughters a couple or more times a year I usually came home by way of I-10 by going south out of Atlanta through Montgomery down to Mobile and across - I never had to look at a sign or a map but I knew when I hit the state line between Louisiana and Texas - even in mid-winter coming back from my Christmas trip the sun has a blaze unto its own  - all that to try and explain how without the shade of the larger tree my 2 small peach trees are showing signs of loss with fewer leaves this year and far fewer blossoms. 

OH YES... remember in one lecture of one of the Great Houses, no I think it was a castle, yes, forget which one but the docent went on to say people moved from these castles constantly and why we would see so many paintings or illustrations of whole households on the road - the reason being two fold - one the so called plumbing that wasn't was so filled up the smell became too great - after all there was a large community of people living in or visiting the castle and also the surrounding area was depleted of easily hunted game of which all these people were dependent and so they up and moved rotating between 'residents' - to me it sounds like the Royal Court was able to rotate more frequently. 

[BarbStAubrey]

According to various sites on the internet Cromwell did have an illegitimate daughter whose name was Jane however the one Martel included is fictitious. what the purpose of her appearing in the story I cannot tell - she came, she went - nothing earth shaking...

All I could pickup was after Wolsey's daughter said he was not there for her father, Cromwell lost something within and he was no longer the fighter he had been so that we are seeing his slow downfall that includes more personal loss with the death of Jane Seymour - I detected a more brutal Henry...

[ginny]

 Oh I hadn't thought about the latrines!!! How much we take for granted today! hahahhaha

I had reached the point last night where Cromwell, looking worried, says "I've lost my way," which sounds very ominous when I was interrupted , and  couldn't concentrate on what was being said or done,  from then on, so I need to watch it again....but I WAS shocked at the appearance of Reginald Pole and I need to go back and see what or who was behind the reason for it. Is he tortured and if so was it Cromwell? You've got to pay attention when you watch the thing, because the film is going to use inferences and images to help make its point.

And it appears Gardiner is back but he's new to the cast,  too, he was in the first installments played by  Mark Gatiss and really sort of snide and evil and now is  played by Alex Jennings in the last three installments, who is the more subtle,  on the surface quite controlled, but apparently in reality very nasty and genial at the same time, another tour de force of acting, but I don't know what to make of the restrained genial but at the same time slimy Gardiner except that he has worked his way with Henry who just (did I see that correctly?)  dismissed Cromwell in front of the two of them, which is a pretty astounding and frightening thing actually, to see.

It looks like the Tide has Turned as they say. But when did it happen?


Cromwell says he's lost his way, and immediately everything starts to go wrong? I'm sort of spinning , myself at these new developments and need to see it again. I  have forgotten what actually did kill Jane, mother of Henry's  newborn son, but it wasn't rich food, and I'm not sure Cromwell was correct in saying he could have prevented it.

Lots of puzzles in that one last night. Off to find out what DID kill her.

[BarbStAubrey]

I agree that Cromwell probably could not have saved her however, I took it as his love and devotion to Jane Seymour that he had hidden quite well and his 'if only' is one of the first stages of grief that of course no one knew the 4 stages of grief till only recent times -  like flush toilets -

And yes, Henry dismissing Cromwell in front of another was very ominous, foreboding of things to come since we know the story... He already spoke of how Henry could have anyone killed and so they are all living on the top of pinheads. 

the one thing that hit me was - and I wonder if you Pat remember - but before penicillin, that was not made available except for the soldiers, when you got really ill with a high fever I remembered the chills and feeling not too much differently than how they depicted Cromwell in his illness - which by the way they never did say what he was ill with - I wonder if his being ill was worked in the story rather than bringing in his son having actually died from the sweating sickness. 

What I did not get was when he visited the monastery with the bees that he had said to the daughter that once it caves to his control he would like to live out his old age there - what confused me is after he walked through the gardens to the front door he sees an image of a women and turns never going inside. I do not know who the women was - if she was real or a figment of his imagination - and what was the meaning of his avoiding her or her image and the house

Not sure I want to watch this episode again - it was a downer but then the next few will all probably be downers - The one bright spot was seeing the baby's cradle or bed with all the art work on head and foot boards

[ginny]

Well I have now watched it again and took notes this time, half of which I can't read,  and completely missed this:

What I did not get was when he visited the monastery with the bees that he had said to the daughter that once it caves to his control he would like to live out his old age there - what confused me is after he walked through the gardens to the front door he sees an image of a women and turns never going inside. I do not know who the women was - if she was real or a figment of his imagination - and what was the meaning of his avoiding her or her image and the house

I don't know.  I'll need to look at it again. His illegitimate  daughter had just asked him to come with her and he would be safe and he had said when he got control of this Abbey (here again throwing them all out)  he would be a beekeeper, and here they show him approaching with something like happiness the current? Abbey which IS pretty and the bee keepers and I missed the woman entirely. Entirely. Following the plot it should have been Dorothea, Wolsey's daughter because he clearly says it's her denunciation of him which has ruined him.  Apparently he wanted to retire to the bees in  the Abbey which he confiscated.

Note Wolsey's ghost is still gone, have the two women said his piece for him? Is that why they are there? Dorothea comes to him in his fever and says the same thing she did before.

I feel that the guillotine, not to mix metaphors, is falling. Echoed by AGAIN by footage of poor Ann Boleyn losing her head. It's getting pretty broad with the  hints. Is this his life falling in front of his eyes, all his failures, all the things he did wrong?

Looks like Reginald Pole self harmed himself rather than deal with Cromwell. Cromwell here shows no mercy at ALL (why? at this stage of the game, does he hope to get back in Henry's favor?) and Cromwell BEAMS here at the thought Pole  will disown his own family (with predictable results), positively an evil glint in his eye, which I am sure is pretty hard for Mark  Rylance to produce.

Wouldn't you like to know what the actor was thinking? Maybe one of our political figures in mind?  hahaha

To me this is the climax of the book. Cromwell realizes he has failed. She asks him DID you fail Wolsey and he says" I don't  know. I don't think so,  But it's undone me, her accusations. I have lost my way."

And there it is,  that, to me, is the  climax, the rest will be a disastrous fall. All his striving to change his class, he's the Keeper of the Privy  Seal, none higher except  the King, and it's all in ruin. It has destroyed him.

But why this time is it in ruin? Are  his enemies, (Gardiner/ Norfolk)/the Poles too great? How has he lost (which he thinks he has), the favor of the King?

It literally makes him sick. He gets that strange fever, he staggers to the King, sees Gardiner talking to the King, tries to dismiss him peremptorily  and ends up being told to leave, himself , by the King and the two to make friends.

I can't read the rest of my handwriting.  hahhaa

WHY does this seem so devastating to him? He's overcome more than this before?

Now at one point he does say if Jane had been married to HIM she would not have died. I wonder if somebody snitched?

[BarbStAubrey]

My take on Cromwell is that Dorothia's condemning him for not being there for her father was a wound so deep - the crying scene i think was the end of the Cromwell we saw earlier and he never recovered his spirit - not sure if it was the loss to him of Dorothia and that this conclusion of his love for Wolsey was misinterpreted or that he did not see it and he really did let Wolsey down - but it matters little in the overall bundle of actions that led him to stay in Henry's court to right wrongs based on his attachment to Wolsey - For Cromwell he thought he was showing his love and loyalty to Wolsey for whom he thought he gave his life and he failed -

Aha that is the reason for the daughter to be from Antwerp - Martel is showing us that Cromwell could have had a fine life elsewhere other then in Henry's court.

Since the meeting with Dorothia he lost his spunk and 'just' work supporting Henry that was not for Henry but rather in doing so he thought he could better bring Wolsey into the King's favorable light - it did not happen and now those who were closest to Wolsey only saw his absence not seeing his love for Wolsey and so the spirit went out of him as he even doubts himself and everything that has happened since is simply going through the paces - he has lost the fire in his belly therefore, anyone can take him down, who has the scent required to pursue power - all they have to do is see or smell his weakness, his loss of spirit, his deep sadness. His old enemy, Gardiner sees and smelled his weakness therefore, easily slipped in taking Cromwell's place with Henry. 

Yes, even his illness makes more sense now... the wrecking of his body is emblematic of the sickness and wreck of his spirit. 

[ginny]

Yes, the free fall has begun.   

I did go back and look at the scene over and there is a woman shown, as he's going to the Abbey. with great…. well not great but with anticipation, he looks looks happy, as he approaches it,  and there she is but who IS she? She  is out of focus. I really can’t see her?  I don’t know who she is and therefore I don’t really know what that means. Who do you think it is, those of you who have seen this?

I did want to say yesterday and I forgot, I wanted  to comment on something  Archbishop Cranmer said, in the dinner scene where Gardiner  is sitting there making little innuendoes  and cracks, nasty fellow for all that surface of ….what IS he doing?  He clearly hates Cromwell.   He clearly hates  being sent away. He is clearly is going to use his position again—- he was Wolsey's man first.   And Cromwell can’t just simply can’t listen to Norfolk making fun  of the clergy anymore. But he himself, Cromwell, has made fun during the dissolution of the monastery for the practices of the monks?

But then Cranmer says something just absolutely stunning. I can’t remember who he said it to, but this shows us somebody’s great knowledge of the period, because Cranmer tells somebody to “play the man.”

That just about threw me out of my chair because when Bishops  Latimer and Ridley were about to be burned at the stake under the rule of bloody Mary, our own sweet little Mary in the story here, and  I think it was really Latimer who told Ridley, (and I could have it backwards) to “play the man.”

Not something I could want to be told before being burned alive. Because I think Ridley was the elder—-I probably have it backwards I’ll go look it up but the connection with Cranmer was that Cranmer ….. He was the  one who wrote the Book of Common Prayer…..Anyway he was made to watch the two men die and when he saw that and their deaths,  he thrust  his own hand into the fire first to repudiate his recantation  that he had made.   

It’s not a common expression or it’s not with me, and all three men are depicted in the martyrs monument in Oxford to this day… And to me it showed how really steeped  Mantel was in this period.

[ginny]

No, that’s correct in Latimer and Ridley.

Above:  The Martyr’s Monument, Oxford UK,  to Bishops Hugh Latimer and  Nicholas Ridley and  to Thomas Cranmer, First Archbishop of Canterbury, under Henry VIII.  If you click on the photo you can see Archbishop Cranmer at the top, and he looks exactly like the actor playing him.

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes that was confusing - I could not figure out if Cromwell had it and decided to let be known his true allegiance and all his actions had been to support his king or what to make of it... but a second war among the clergy and Cromwell within the walls of Henry's court was taking place as I saw it - the other thought popped in maybe he was saying things to keep the war going between those he saw as his enemy - whatever, it was certainly him dropping his cover used to further his power in Court and to keep in favor with Henry - now he appears not to care and truth of how he felt willed out... as to Crammer and Ridley they were new to me and I had not looked into who they were or what their religious philosophy was I simply saw them in context of Cromwell's lost spirit and declining power in court culminating in his loss of Henry's good will.

At this point in the story I even wondered if Cromwell had pushed for a break from Rome for Henry's sake but then he did seem to agree with all the principles that went against the Roman Catholic Church where as Gardiner, who I thought represented Rome's viewpoint being cozy with Henry was really strange. As much as I do not enjoy seeing Cromwell in this no man's place as he looses power I really need to review that part of the episode again in order to follow what you are saying...   

[ginny]

Gardiner, who I thought represented Rome's viewpoint being cozy with Henry was really strange.
 
THAT is a very good point which had not occurred to me, they are so chummy all of a sudden, aren't they?

My goodness. But why do we think he's on the Pope's side? I've forgotten how Gardiner left and why? I think this time I'll look it up rather than go back and try to find it. Cromwell must have sent him away, but he's a Bishop.

Hmmm

[ginny]

Looks like Gardiner played the fence and blew where the wind took him, or is that too harsh when reading this?

From The Britannica Online:


Quick Facts
Born: c. 1482, Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk, Eng.
Died: Nov. 12, 1555, London
Title / Office: lord chancellor (1553-1555), England

Stephen Gardiner (born c. 1482, Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk, Eng.—died Nov. 12, 1555, London) was an English bishop and statesman, a leading exponent of conservatism in the first generation of the English Reformation. Although he supported the antipapal policies of King Henry VIII (ruled 1509–47), Gardiner rejected Protestant doctrine and ultimately backed the severe Roman Catholicism of Queen Mary I (ruled 1553–58).


The son of a clothmaker, he obtained his doctorate in civil and canon law from the University of Cambridge in 1520–21. Throughout a busy public life he maintained ties to Cambridge, serving as master of Trinity Hall 1525–49 and 1553–55. Gardiner became, in 1525, secretary to Henry VIII’s chief minister, Cardinal Wolsey, and in 1528–29 he was sent on missions to Pope Clement VII to negotiate for the annulment of Henry’s marriage to Catherine of Aragon—the issue that was to cause Henry to break with Rome and declare himself head of the English Church. As a reward for his services Gardiner was made Henry’s principal secretary in 1529 and bishop of Winchester, the wealthiest see in England, in September 1531.

Gardiner, however, failed to earn the king’s trust; in 1532 Henry bypassed him to appoint as his archbishop of Canterbury the obscure Thomas Cranmer, who was to become a renowned Protestant reformer. Two years later Henry’s chief adviser, Thomas Cromwell, eased Gardiner out of his secretaryship. Thus the bishop became the inveterate enemy of both Cromwell and Cranmer.

Gardiner recovered some favour at court by publishing his Episcopi de vera obedientia oratio (1535; “Bishop’s Speech on True Obedience”), a treatise attacking the papacy and upholding royal supremacy over the Church of England. In 1539, however, he led the conservative reaction that, through the Act of Six Articles, required all Englishmen to abide by the main tenets of Roman Catholic doctrine.

Gardiner and his sometime colleague Thomas Howard, 3rd duke of Norfolk, had a hand in bringing about Cromwell’s downfall in June 1540, and he then succeeded Cromwell as chancellor of Cambridge. Thereafter Henry kept Gardiner on his royal council in order to counter the Protestant sympathies of some of his other advisers, but he would not allow the bishop to bring Cranmer to trial on charges of heresy. Gardiner was also frustrated in his campaign to destroy Queen Catherine Parr, and Henry did not name him to the council of regency for his son Edward.

[BarbStAubrey]

Interesting- glad you found that information on Gardiner - yep, as the wind blows - I have to wonder if staying on the right side of Henry also meant keeping your head but neither here nor there he, Gardiner sure played the game and so now that makes more sense - did not know he worked directly for and under Wolsey which could have been a cause for a long term boil towards Cromwell, who may not have realized at that time he was usurping Gardiner being blinded to his love for Wolsey to the degree he really devoted his entire adult life and all the contacts he made in his early adulthood to the work he thought was benefiting Wolsey - I'm seeing that as the singular purpose to his adult life.

Yes, he used his power, was manipulative, played the game, but under it all it was all for Wolsey as he thought he was cementing his love for Wolsey to make Wolsey the icon Cromwell thought he should be.  I do think he had strong feelings for Jane Seymour and felt protective of even Anne as well as Catherine and Mary for sure. As to Dorothea I think he had less feelings for her than his desire to protect her but also as the daughter of Wolsey I think he felt more responsibility and would love her in any capacity out of his love for her father so that he was shocked to his core when he heard what she believed and how she felt. It was as if his whole adult life was stamped out.

As to his affiliation with Rome or Lambert's explanation and point of view, I think he had a similar viewpoint as Lambert but was not as passionately advocating for it as much as playing the game required to make Henry all powerful - Henry wanted his Church of England but did not want to be aligned with Heretics and Lambert was a Heretic which meant Cromwell had to be cautious speaking at the trial. This was not what Gardiner was hoping for - he appeared to want to nail Cromwell at the trial. However it appeared Cromwell held similar views as Lambert and this is where i cannot tell if he was smart enough to play politics and say nothing showing his support for Henry's way of thinking or if he wanted the whole issue dismissed at least in his mind because he had no passion for either religion and according to where he lived he could go either way. In other words had he moved back to Antwerp for instance he would be a Catholic just to get along and blend in. Also, he knew Lambert from their student days together and was probably not wanting to see him pay the price that was coming.

Not sure where I read but Pole when he was in the tower was not injured by Henry or Cromwell's men - he tried to commit suicide since he was afraid of being burned alive.

And then I read this that explained what I did not realize watching the other night... Cromwell appoints Thomas Wyatt, who was a former lover of Anne Boleyn and who Cromwell saved his life by keeping him in the Tower until the dust settled, as the King’s ambassador to the Emperor. He would be Cromwell’s informant there. Wyatt, who hates Spain because the Inquisition sends spies and steals his letters, does not get it. (Neither did I get all of it) It is Cromwell’s goal to have new allies such as the German Princes because he doesn’t want to force Henry into an alliance with them against Rome. Cromwell can’t risk Mary getting on the throne and getting rid of all the work he has done in the last seven years. Cromwell has accumulated so much wealth and power that he wants to protect for his son Gregory, his nephew Richard, and his right-hand man Rafe. And so Cromwell believes they need to find a way to end the peace between France and Spain and, keep Henry from a direct confrontation with Rome that could end up with Mary on the throne.

[Frybabe]

Great conversation, you two. Sorry I can't join in, but I haven't read the books nor seen the TV presentation, nor read the two books I have on Cromwell and the Civil War.

Oscar goes in for an ultra-sound today. Poor little guy can't eat anything until after. He is not happy about that, but so far, not complaining much. Shan seems somewhat subdued too, unusual for him not to pest for all kinds of attention after his breakfast.

[ginny]

Oh poor cat. I hope he gets better soon. Sad when they can't tell you what's wrong! Hoping everything goes his way.

He's better off than poor Henry VIII, though, and don't let the conversation stop you from saying what you want!!! We're here to talk books, and anything else, so let's do? It's so interesting.

Barbara,  I missed the Wyatt thing completely as well. It's a good thing you're here! On the upteenth viewing of the movie (have you noticed you sit down and say well I'll just watch till XXX and  the  next thing you know, it's over? I'm always amazed and keep checking the clock to see where the time went.

Anyway last night it looked to me that the woman in the Abbey was the 2nd daughter Janneke or however it's spelled.  Does that even make SENSE?

The closeups of Henry's wounded leg reminded me of something.  Here's Dr. Butts, Henry's doctor.

and it seems that back then nobody has much faith in him, (he was Wolsey's physician too, at the last)...but Henry's LEGS!!!!! In the movie Butts says and apparently believed you had to scrape off the scabs regularly  (CAN YOU IMAGINE?!) and not allow it to seal over?  They thought or so they said that it trapped the bad stuff in. What a horror.

That's what they have him saying in the movie, and in the book Mantel (I think, I'm not to it yet) but I remember a popular jingle of the day she quoted if you want to die call Butts (that's not it, but when I find it I will bring it here)...BUT Wikipedia has noting bad to say about him....it can't be both. I have a feeling Mantel and MacCullough know something I don't.


So here is Henry with all his troubles and that  awful festering LEG!!!!!!!!!!! on top of it. I wonder it didn't fall off. THAT would make MY disposition very very sour, and it wouldn't take  a lot.   When somebody is sick or feeling bad, they are not in the most agreeable moods. I can't imagine it. I am actually beginning to feel sorry for him.

What I really love about this entire experience is how much I  am learning and how much I don't know. EVERYBODY  has heard of Henry  VIII but I  am astounded about how much real history I knew nothing at all about. And I think one thing the movie does is continually remind us that Mantel wrote fiction. Now all we have to do is separate the two. 

Not to change the subject, but what's new with YOU all?

[bellamarie]

Frybabe, I hope all goes well for Oscar.  I too don't have much to offer to the Cromwell book/tv series since I have not read or watched anything on it.  Sounds like something I would like to check out but just not enough hours in a day anymore to even pick up a book lately. 

Barb, I just can't imagine living in a state where I couldn't enjoy the outside in the summer.  I crave to be out amongst my flowers and sitting by the pool listening to either my music or the birds serenading.  My hubby and I spend hours on the patio just chatting with our coffee in the early morning and later afternoon.  I've already managed to clean out and prune all of last year's debris and am anxious to design my new cleared area near the patio.  We had our old broken cracked unleveled patio removed this past Fall and replaced with new beautiful concrete with a design border, so I pulled all the old flowers and plants out of the area and will replace with low maintenance ones.  Not sure about replacing the Dogwood, but I sure do miss having one.

Ginny, I think it's a good idea to just let the forestry replenish itself.

I've been binge watching these reality competition shows at night and can't tear myself away from them.  They are surely entertaining to say the least. lol I notice they all seem to keep using the same people from years past in other shows and they don't seem to have grown in intelligence over the years.  So, I'm beginning to wonder if I am mindlessly watching because there really is no good sitcoms or movies on anymore.  I'm completely baffled with how many pay stations there are now...Hulu, Peacock, Netflix, Apple TV, etc., etc.  I have to share a bit of success my 30 yr. old granddaughter Kenzie has accomplished with watching these movies on these channels.  She began a Tik Tok account and is titled a "social media influencer" she gives reviews of all of these different shows on these channels.  Seems she has picked up quite a bit of followers and an author happened to notice her and asked if she would do a review on his new book.  He sent her a copy and paid her $100 just to do a short review on her Tik Tok.  I thought that was pretty neat, but yesterday she sent me a message telling me she was on the phone with a Paramount Plus talent agent offering her $1500 for a collaboration video for Yellowstone.  She also sent me a pic of her check she received from Tik Tok for her monthly payment, and it was for $9,979.99.  It seems she won a bonus of $7,000 for the month.  She generates around $2,000 - 4,000 a month normally for posting a couple times a day.  I was simply astounded to think she is able to make this kind of money along with her remote job at home.  I can see how everyone was up in arms when Tik Tok went down for just a few days.  Like Dr. Suess said in one of his books...Oh the Places You'll Go!

Okay have to run, it's Euchre Day for me.

[BarbStAubrey]

been a couple of days and so two post-its for us to consider

[BarbStAubrey]

I've thought about who I would want to chat with and going over so many, bottom line I would like to chat with 3 from my family from the past and to pick one I cannot seem to do that - at first I thought 2 of my family could be on the bench with me and then the more I thought that would end up constant chatter and it would be nice to have a good chat with a few minutes of comfortable silence as we would take in the view and the air and sitting close to each other - I would like to chat with my Son - goodness he would be 73 now and I would like to chat with my mother and I would like to chat with my great grandmother, my mother's grandmother who came here alone at age 16 from Bavaria - I have so many questions I would like to know where as with my son and mother it would be so nice to just sit and quietly chat

As to famous people - not really - the questions that are not already answered by historians and those who wrote biographies are probably about things I know that happened and they probably have no more clue why they did this or that than any of us trying to explain our actions - we do what we think is necessary and historians will weave in the actions of famous people to the times they lived. It is the little things that interest me that family who were not famous chose that set the atmosphere they lived in that affects our family today.

And yes, it is easy to loose hope - the idea there are still wonderful things ahead is not how I would have thought - not 100% sure about this but on the chance something wonderful is in my future brings me above the dullness of being limited by age - Ok I need to start thinking like a kid waiting for Christmas although something wonderful hmmm but yes, most Christmases brought wonder with them...

[Frybabe]

The ultrasound came up with two things that need followed up on. One, Oscar's liver is showing up "whiter" than the vet usually sees. He says the liver would need a biopsy to figure out why. The second this is that part of his bowel lining is thicker than normal. He said that could be lymphoma or it could be IBS. He suggested bloodwork to that and his pancreas. I probably have had him take the bloodwork right there (which would be set to the U. of Texas), but I kind of froze at the word lymphoma. Results will be sent to my regular vet, so I will consult with him. Meanwhile, I looked up lymphoma in cats and discovered that there are two kinds, small cell and large cell. The large cell is aggressive and even with treatment survival rate is usually only at around a year, two years max. The small cell is less aggressive and can be treated at home with chemo and prednisone. Occasionally, prednisone alone will slow the cancer down and sometimes even puts the cancer into remission. And another thing, who knew, FIV vaccines actually slow down cancer and may even prevent it from occurring in other parts of the body. Most small cell lymphomas are only found in the intestines in cats that get FIV vaccines.  The other thing I looked up is IBD in cats and behold, I discovered that IBD can affect the liver causing the symptoms I see in Oscar as well. IBD in cats is treated with prednisone to reduce inflammation but does not cure it. So, there is a little hope there.

Right now I am kind of between reading. The science fiction trilogy is finished. What a trip that was. I did not read about two-thirds of the last book because it became kind of an endless horror type passage through an alien transport, mix that with war and hallucinations and a drug-like substance and it got to be a bit too much. The upshot is that I think of the story mostly as anti-war. And, it reminded me of the Viet Nam War and the devastating consequences to many of our troops serving there. I remember how the vets were often treated when they got home.

While I was at the vet, I started Lost in Shangri-La by Mitchell Zuckoff. It is a non-fiction account of a group of soldiers, including at least one woman, whose plane went down in New Guinea and their ordeal until they were rescued.  So far, it isn't too exciting, but it brings back a memory of a neighbor who was part of a group who went to New Guinea to excavate and bring back a WWII fighter, one of the "Black Widows" I believe. It's reconstruction was housed at the Reading Air Museum here in PA; I assume it is still there. After a couple of weeks or so in the oppressive heat and humidity, not to mention the insects, my neighbor was quite happy to be back home.

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh dear Oscar is having a time of it - hope the test turns out the cancer is the less aggressive kind... Had to look it up because I know how much you and Pat enjoy science fiction - The earliest widely recognized science fiction book is generally considered to be Lucian of Samosata's "True History", written in the 2nd century AD. It features a journey to the moon, alien life, and interplanetary conflict, elements that are characteristic of science fiction and lo and behold Gutenberg has a copy... https://www.gutenberg.org/files/45858/45858-h/45858-h.htm

Have you thought Frybabe of who you would like to sit on a bench overlooking the ocean and chat with for an hour?

Bellamarie - it is not that we don't go out in summer - we are limited during certain hours of the day to our activity although some go ahead anyhow however water, water, water is our life and always wearing a cap... Think of our August and September as your winter December, January and February - during the winter we have cold fronts that come through but the last about a week or less and then it warms up to long sleeve shirt weather - few to none in this Houston area own a winter coat or jacket - this last winter there were more cold fronts then usual and parents finally purchased some winter wear for their kiddos who probably wore the warm coasts less then a dozen times and of course by next year they will have grown out of them. However we have things growing in the garden till after Christmas and they start peeking out again in early to mid February which balances our ability to protect from the sun the more vulnerable plants in August and September. Sounds like your grand daughter has found her work that pays well and in a field that never existed till recently - a nice surprise for you and a nice example of one of your grands doing well financially in life...

And you also Bellamarie - do you have a 'someone' who you would like to chat with for an hour who either lives now or in the past

[BarbStAubrey]

Been watching a documentary on Henry available from Amazon Prime and I've been learning a few things

First I did not know that the accident that we saw his leg a mess in the last episode happened when he was age 44, 3 years after he married Anne Boleyn - I thought he was younger when he had this accident because up till the accident he was supposed to be fit and handsome.  He married Anne when he was 41

Evidently of all places the Vatican Library has quite a collection of his letters in his own hand including all his love letters to Anne who was actually holding him at bay till he was able to promise and arrange for their marriage. The documentary also said he had an affair with Anne's sister and she was not going to fall in the same trap as her sister, for herself she wanted marriage.

Also they blame her hearing of Henry's accident that had him unconscious on the ground for 2 hours of which the horse only rolled over on him the last of this time, anyhow Anne was 3 months pregnant and had a miscarriage that showed a fully developed male child.

What Martel shows in Cromwell flinching and being caught with positive feelings when Anne is executed isn't matching this documentary that shows for some time Anne and Henry were quarreling constantly - mostly because Henry had lovers and Anne did not as a wife like that.  Henry was fearing this marriage was a duplicate of his first, with miscarriages and the birth of a girl. They show him to be consumed completely, as he saw it his sole purpose was the continuation and protection of the Tudor dynasty Another the documentary shows is it was Cromwell who Anne was in competition with so that in order to protect himself he feigns illness for 2 weeks so that he could plot a plan and it was he, Cromwell who put together the questionable evidence that Anne was having the affairs that Henry blows up saying if she could have one she could have 1500

Other bits I did not know - evidently Hampton Court belonged to Wolsey and Wolsey was having so many parties out shining the parties Henry was giving so that Henry was put out and Wolsey than offers Hampton Court to Henry - no direct quote but it sounded to me that Henry did not take him up on the offer but took Hampton Court with the downfall and death of Wolsey.

And then the sickbed death of Wolsey is not making sense since again I did not realize it was Wolsey and here i thought it was Cromwell who attempted and failed to get the Pope to allow Henry to divorce Catherine - then when Wolsey left London in disgrace never able to again be accepted by the king (the Vatican Library has a letter written by Wolsey begging Henry to reinstate him) he was called back to London by Henry and on his way back he stopped for the night in I think it was Yorkshire where he fell and died. And so what is the deathbed scene in Martel's story??? The Documentary does say Wolsey becomes more and more feeble even before he leaves court so many the death bed scenes that Martel uses was trying to make a point about how feeble Wolsey became.

Evidently Cromwell's call to fame that started him on his road to influence, power and riches was he brought to Henry the concept of how he, Henry  could become very wealthy and all kings want more wealth - Cromwell showed him the wealth in the monasteries that Cromwell ended up plundering  taking over 536 monasteries for Henry who ended up giving some away to acknowledge his faithful supporters and spent a great deal of the money on what the professors who intersperse this documentary called bling.  Henry made himself into the most fashionable and therefore the mightiest looking king of all using many jewels and jeweled rings to pull this off and shoes, shoes, shoes - in one year alone he had 175 pairs of shoes delivered.

The documentary shows Henry regularly washing up in a washbasin full of floating cloves - cloves are anti bacteria and anti fungi - not as good an antibiotic as garlic and honey but too bad the washing basin water was not poured over his leg. Instead of scraping it may have helped rid the leg of some of the sores - Again, it was only after the accident he put on all that weight and so he was fit and handsome for Anne and during his earlier years     

[bellamarie]

Frybabe, I am so very sorry to hear the diagnosis of Oscar.  I was hoping for better news, yet if he does have the less aggressive type there is reason for hope.  My friend is facing a difficult situation with her dog who is 8 yrs. old.  He has what they call invisible kidney stones which requires surgery. She maxed out every credit card she has a couple of years ago to pay $8,000 due to a spinal injury from him jumping so now she can't afford the costly surgery for the stones.  Her bill for these stones is presently $5,000 not including the surgery so she tried a Go Fund Me account and it has only gotten $350 donated.  The Vet Care she goes to cannot do the surgery if she is not able to come up with the money.  This dog means everything to her because he was her husband's little buddy before he passed away.  Our pets truly are a part of our family, and I pray for your Oscar and her Pedro.


Barb, do you have a 'someone' who you would like to chat with for an hour who either lives now or in the past

Since I have spent endless hours of research through Ancestry.com and other sites over the past years trying to find the correct spelling of my Italian grandparents who migrated from Italy to Canada then the United States in the 1920s I would LOVE to talk with my grandfather.  I grew up with the last name Patterfritz as did the rest of my cousins, yet through the help of Valerie (my research angel) she was able to find my last name is Pettofrezza.  My grandfather was known as Joe or Joseph in the United States, but Valerie was able to uncover his true biological birth name is Giusepeantonio  Pettofrezza.  I feel like he is the only one who could fill in all the blanks to my paternal family history.  Never having a memory of my Daddy, I would also like time with him to not only chat with, but for him to sing the song Sonta Lucia and hear him play his guitar as all those who knew him talks about, and for him to give me the biggest hug any little girl would want from her Daddy. 

Okay have to run and shop for Easter goodies.  I think this will be the year I finally stop making baskets for the grown adult kids and grandkids.  I think I will do just one for the great grandson Haze who is almost 3 yrs. old.  I looked at the baskets I have been using for over 20 years and decided they have weathered the years but it's time to accept they just can't make it another year.  Not about to go buy new ones at their ages.  Wish me luck because I am a traditionalist and changes don't come easy for me.