Author Topic: The Library  (Read 2625432 times)

MaryPage

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14480 on: December 15, 2014, 08:21:06 AM »

The Library
Our library cafe is open 24/7, the welcome mat is always out.
Do come in from daily chores and spend some time with us.

We look forward to hearing from you, about you and the books you are enjoying (or not).


Let the book talk begin here!




In thinking on why I, like Steph and a few (obviously only a few, given its best selling numbers) disliked Gone Girl so, I keep coming up with culture groups and foreignness and different patterns of thinking.  And I think the mind sets in some ways in some groups IN SET PERIODS OF TIME, and in other ways in others.  I find I cannot bear betrayal or thought patterns that run to "me against the world," as opposed to the "what can I do?" pattern.  And I think most of it has to do with the TIME and place we were raised in, but it also has to do with whether or not we are able to disassociate ourselves from what we read.  I can do that with straight history, but when reading fiction I prefer to identify with the narrator or hero or heroine of the story, and if I cannot, I find myself getting very upset by the mind pattern and I cannot complete the book.  In short, I am unable to disassociate, which many others are easily able to do.  Am I making any sense of this at all?  And this musing brings me to two thoughts:  one is that today's generation is much, much more acclimatized to encountering people possessed with total me-ism ruthless selfishness;  after all, they see it on television all the time.  And the other is that there is NO WAY any of the historical fiction we read is very accurate or authentic given that we really have no way of knowing which mix of values were deeply set within the minds of the peoples of those times and cultures.  To give you just one instance, and one that I personally know so well, I find that when authors today write of the period I grew up in, let's define it as from the Great Depression through World War II, they write their characters as very voluble beings who speak and think much as my children's and grandchildren's generations do.  But they didn't.  They were not highly talkative people.  They conducted polite conversation, but were extremely unrevealing of anything on the personal level.  In short, they rather fiercely guarded their privacy.  Even their children did not know what was going on in their lives.  Anything personal or private was just not spoken of.  At all.  Ever.  And this very strong trait is just not present in books written today of those years.  Neither is the strict politeness of the era.  Our old movies are pretty good at showcasing these traits, but not the remakes.  

Steph

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14481 on: December 15, 2014, 09:01:59 AM »
Oh MaryPage, you say it so well. I identify when I read, so there are some books, I simply always dislike and rarely finish ( did finish Gone Girl, no idea why)
I love Biltmore House and since I live an hour away in the summer, love to peep in at the vinyards and the walled garden, etc. It is such a livable house. I have visited so many houses,, Newport ( garish to put it mildly), Biltmore, Sagamore Hill, Andrew Jacksons house built for his beloved Rachel, Monticello.. FDR's childhood home..When we were traveling in the RV, we always tried to tour any houses that were open and saw some in Montana and Wyoming, The most remarkable thing about them was the dates they were built and what the did and did not have in the houses compared to the east where I have spent most of my life. Am going to see Ca d Zan.. Ringlings house in January. I love it and would move in tomorrow if I could
Houses as reflections of their owners are so fascinating.. Anyone who has gone to San Simeon has questions about Hearst, I am sure. I know I do.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

ginny

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14482 on: December 15, 2014, 09:36:22 AM »
Larry what exciting news! That will be so nice to be closer to your son and also the grandchildren!   I think that's a wonderful thing. Maybe once you all get settled and so forth we could meet for lunch .  It's been a long time since I saw you and Pat. I will never forget our first meeting,  it was so funny, she and I were both in the ladies room  was it at the Senior Net thing in Wilmington??  So long ago!

And I seem to remember dropping something, I believe in the WC so to speak, and I was carrying on about it and there she was.   Hahaha.   I am sure she thought I was insane.   She was right. Hahaha

Mary Page what an interesting reflection on the reaction you may have had from reading Gone Girl.  I love that, quite introspective.

It appears  they were both sociopaths,  it's fascinating to see how people's minds work, and perhaps it is the me generation..... really the way it was written I couldn't put it down.


I agree Stephanie and it's funny because I never have been much of a person to want to see anybody else's house. The Christmas tours,  the Garden Tours of peoples houses ....I've never wanted to be in anybody else's house. I don't care how anybody else lives, or how they decorate. But Biltmore really is a spectacular thing and it IS a piece of history, which alone makes it interesting.  

The Hearst house and the swimming pool like he had, an indoor swimming pool in which you could swim from room to room was truly  beyond anybody's wildest dreams. Kind of like the Biltmore bowling alley inside. And indoor pool of course.   if you're going to put something in your house,  a real bowling alley and a real indoor swimming pool that you can swim from room to room in I would say that's pretty good stuff.  I found the indoor drying racks of Biltmore which pulled out from the wall in huge cabinets to be one of the most spectacular things I've ever seen anywhere,  I wish I had some.

I think the most interesting big house I've ever been in is the Remington mansion. I had read about it in an SRA when teaching adults to read. And we were in that state and I wanted to see it.  Apparently Mrs. Remington, heir to the Remington fortune, became obsessed with the ghosts of the people who have been killed by the Remington rifle.

She then set about  building them, that is the ghosts, rooms her entire life,  in expiation, adding on and on and on to the mansion,  staircases that went nowhere,   it's something else.

It's sad but it's quite interesting.


Sometimes in reading it seems we encounter things which challenge us, and also that call upon us to maybe to enlarge  our understanding of the  world a little bit. I think The Hot Zone was one of those books. Certainly not a subject I would normally care to read about. But, as everybody kept saying, so well-written! As usual our books DL Pat H   here made a super job of the discussion That's the job of a bookclub, isn't it, to enlarge our boundaries. We can decide if we liked the experience or not. But the thing is at least to try. To try to have an open mind going in.  Of course there are books nobody wants to read, I just read one. But I'm glad I did.  You learn something from every book you read.

I learned a lot from that awful book.  It's really quite a stark contrast between the parents's generation and the daughter's, and as such is a real heads up.

MaryPage

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14483 on: December 15, 2014, 10:33:57 AM »
To give just a simple example for viewing generational differences, I recently (ok, because my great granddaughter Bella is to appear this coming two weeks as Susan Walker in the play) watched TWO (2) versions of Miracle on 34th Street.  The original, with Maureen O'Hara, differed quite a bit in attitudes from the next, with Elizabeth Perkins.  I found myself preferring bits from both, but on the whole the second was more satisfying overall.
But here is the clincher about culture ruling times:  and if you did not know this, well, neither did I until just now:  The Roman Catholic Legion of Decency put the original Miracle on 34th Street on their condemned list.  You could not in conscience go to see that movie!!!  Why?  Well, because the mother was DIVORCED!  I swear!

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14484 on: December 15, 2014, 01:03:25 PM »
Yep, and I just finally after all these years saw on the movie channel Three Faces of Eve that was a huge no no back then -
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

MaryPage

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14485 on: December 15, 2014, 05:04:40 PM »
The first Miracle on 34th Street was made in 1947, and a very small NATALIE WOOD played the little girl.  That was the condemned version;  condemned because the mother was divorced, yet remarried.  Edmund Gwenn played Santa.  I thought there could never, ever be a better movie.

But.  But the 1994 version, which I had never seen until recently, is delicious.  Mara Wilson (later Matilda) beat the britches off Natalie as little Susan Walker.  She is flat out irresistible in the part.  And the story moves faster and is more fun.  Richard Attenborough is much closer to my idea of Santa Claus.  The story has been completely rewritten and changed, but is basically the same.  If you watch both versions this season, and you should have plenty of opportunity so to do, you will see what I mean.

Our Annabelle (Bella), age 12 and old for the part, but tiny, will play Susan at the Avalon Theatre in Easton, Maryland this month.  She entertains dreams of Broadway.


Steph

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14486 on: December 16, 2014, 09:03:20 AM »
Congratulations MaryPage,, As I recall this is the child who also went on the semester at sea program? She is quite bright and advanced for her years.
I had a good friend as a teen who was catholic. actually was a nun for about 15 years, but is now widowed and running a food program for elderly.. So the list always fascinated us. Her Mother always had to check the list for movies, songs and books..Not that Renee actually listened, but we always pretended we did.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

MaryPage

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14487 on: December 16, 2014, 11:51:46 AM »
I remember "the list" quite well from back in the day, also.  And I tell you again, the differences between the 1947 and the 1994 movies are beyond fascinating.  For instance, in the 1947 movie, Susan's mother arrives home from her job at Macy's, and there is a "colored" maid in her kitchen, all yes ma'am and no ma'am.  In the 1994 version, no maid whatsoever.  Each movie is true to the era in which it is made.

Yes, Bella is the one who took the Semester At Sea with UVA around the world.  She is, I think, more lucky in the matter of what she has encountered in her life than she is exceptional.  There are plenty of children out there who are smarter, more talented and better looking, but they just haven't had the incredible opportunities Bella has stumbled over.  Our Universe is made up of total chaos, and she has been immersed in the good stuff for quite a while now.  Of course, I hope blessings will always rain down upon her, but I also wish with enormous angst that some members of my family who have been experiencing long runs of really dire stuff could swing back into the sunshine and enjoy some of the good things, as well.

Steph

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14488 on: December 17, 2014, 08:55:31 AM »
I do understand that well. Having a grandson who has Asburgers and is being bullied and cannot understand why he has to change classes, when all he wants is to stay in one classroom and have one teacher.. He is so desperately unhappy and in turn his parents are in despair trying to figure out how to help him. They have found a small Christian school and if he passes their criteria will start there on January 6th. The whole family is holding their breath that it will work for him. He is so bewildered by relationships..
Stephanie and assorted corgi

MaryPage

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14489 on: December 17, 2014, 12:51:06 PM »
http://www.harbourschool.org/

Steph, this is where very dear friends of mine sent their Asperger's son.  It was WONDERFUL for him.  He spent 5 years in High School because they advised he needed an extra year of maturity before he was ready to go out into the world;  it was not a matter of academics, as he is extremely intelligent.  So he had the 5th year and then went to St. Mary's College of Maryland in St. Mary's City in St. Mary's County.  That, for History buffs, is where the Arc and the Dove sailed in and began the colony of Maryland.  St. Mary's is one of the top ranked liberal arts colleges in the country, and comes under our state system of colleges and universities.  This boy sailed through his 4 years and is now gainfully employed and happy.  Strange, yes.  Always will be.  But productive and happy and LOVED.

Frybabe

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14490 on: December 18, 2014, 06:30:58 AM »
When I was young I loved to add book plates to my books. I got away from doing that, don't know why. To my absolute delight, I found this volume about bookplates. When you look at the illustrations, there is a little double box icon above them. Click on it and the bookplate enlarges for a better look. How neat is that?  http://www.gutenberg.org/files/47682/47682-h/47682-h.htm Unfortunately, the feature is not active on downloaded files (at least not on Kindle) If you want to download the book, here is the download page. http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/47682

Steph

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14491 on: December 18, 2014, 08:59:48 AM »
His parents want him in a day school at this point. Yes Autistic children tend to skew younger than their contemporaries. Connor is 13, but his reactions tend to be around 11 or so. He is bright enough, reads everything, but the constant changes in how to do math have caused him to back away from math. I can sympathize. I tried to help him with math recently and although I can get the right answer, I don't get it the way the teacher wants, so I was no help.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

MaryPage

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14492 on: December 20, 2014, 11:51:41 AM »
The Harbour School is a day school for Special Education.  It is not part of the public school system, and is frightfully expensive, but the perfection of their expertise makes for the very best possible investment in a child's Life.  This boy had a very, very long commute by bus each day, but OH, what they gave him in return!

Steph

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14493 on: December 21, 2014, 08:37:43 AM »
Yes, I actually have heard of the Harbor School. There are a number of schools that are excellent. Alas, none in Florida..
Stephanie and assorted corgi

MaryPage

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14494 on: December 21, 2014, 10:45:56 AM »
I know we are not supposed to be political in here, and I am one who most definitely does NOT want to be.  But in this particular case, an awful lot of us are women, and we simply must feel that we matter.  That we count.

Well, did you know that over 230 MILLION little girls under the age of five have never had their births registered?  All over this world!  Did you know that there are hundreds upon hundreds of millions of women without birth certificates?  You see, a girl is of no significance and it is not worth the time and trouble to have her listed.  So she cannot go to school, get a job, have access to health care or any social services.  She is condemned to no opportunities whatsoever.  She has no existence!

Well, there is a bill up on the hill as I write.  The Girls Count Act.  Ask your Senator to vote to pass it.  It will not make much, if any, difference;  but it may be a beginning.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/house-bill/3398
 

I count!  Do you?

Judy Laird

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14495 on: December 21, 2014, 01:53:17 PM »
Just to put in my two cents worth.My friend and I read mostly the same books and neither one of us liked

Gone Girl I mean REALLY

aWAY I GO OFF TO Alaska. FLIGHT LEAVES AT 2:55 I HEAR THE AIRPORT IS A ZOO

MaryPage

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14496 on: December 21, 2014, 03:18:31 PM »
I did not like it either, Judy.  Have Fun!

When we read THE HOT ZONE we had a fascinating conversation about Ebola.  FYI, Time magazine has a double issue out dated December 22 AND December 29, with the Person of the Year on the front cover being The Ebola Fighters.  There is a really long, almost book long, article in that magazine bringing us right up to the minute regarding what is going on in the fight against that disease.  This article answers a lot of questions that rose over and over within our reading group.

Tomereader1

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14497 on: December 21, 2014, 03:38:58 PM »
And I absolutely HATED "Gone Girl"!  Wouldn't bother to see the movie either.
The reading of a fine book is an uninterrupted dialogue in which the book speaks and our soul replies.


André Maurois

ginny

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14498 on: December 21, 2014, 04:21:29 PM »
Have a wonderful trip, Judy! How exciting!

And yet in the new People Magazine in their huge annual interview with  President and Mrs. Obama, she declares the best book she read this year is Gone Girl.

Go figure! hahahaha :)

salan

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14499 on: December 21, 2014, 05:03:37 PM »
Count me in as another one who disliked Gone Girl.  My ftf book club read & discussed it (and most of us did not like it). 
Sally

Steph

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14500 on: December 22, 2014, 08:36:14 AM »
When I think of her public pronouncements, Mrs. Obama is not someone that I would believe her book announcements.. I think it is mostly an age thing though.
Yesterday was so neat. My two daughter in laws, my granddaughter came up to my house. We had lunch celebrating my birthday the day before and then spent the afternoon, laughing together, telling stories and encouraging our one younger member to celebrate life..Such fun.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

MaryPage

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14501 on: December 22, 2014, 09:06:01 AM »
Oh my!  What FUN!  A girl party is the Best!

And Happy Birthday, Stephanie!  I did not know.  What day on the calendar is it, the 20th?

I agree that liking or not liking Gone Girl is a huge generational thing.  That, and whether or not the reader is capable of detachment.  I think being totally incapable of detachment is half of my problem, and the other half is my being 85.  I simply cannot identify with a mind pattern so set on me, me, me, with such ugly intentions toward others.  I was raised with great attention to seeing to it that I put others before myself.  Empathy was downright forced into my pores.  I do not regret this;  on the contrary, I did the same with my own children.  I'm just saying, the norm has changed.  

Having just reread THE COMING PLAGUE by Laurie Garrett, I am staggering under a lead-coat weight of sadness over what we are doing to our very own and only planet, and to ourselves.  Time to grab something that is light and frothy to change my mood and see in Christmas!

Escapism, ain't it lovely!  Unfortunately, that is what our chosen officials and we ourselves are engaging in all the way to our total extinction.

salan

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14502 on: December 22, 2014, 05:10:05 PM »
Steph, are we birthday buddies?  My birthday was the 20th.  My daughter is coming today and I will go back to Dallas with her tomorrow.  I will be staying until the 27th or so. 
Merry Christmas to everyone and I'll be in touch when I return.
Sally

MaryPage

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14503 on: December 22, 2014, 07:34:24 PM »
So happy belated birthday to you, too, Sally!  Scheesch!  If you guys would've just SAID something, we could have declared a PAR-TEE!

Steph

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14504 on: December 23, 2014, 08:50:15 AM »
Oh neat Sally, yes my birthday is the 20th and I was and am 77... Growing up, I always got a combined birthday and Christmas present.. limited money, I would guess.. but when I married and he found out I had never gotten to have a party or stuff like that.. for 51 years, my birthday was very special.. sometimes funny, sometimes sentimental, but always a bit deal.. So the last five years have been hard. I tend to become a hermit for the day.. Too many memories, but my daughter in laws and granddaughter were determined to break the pattern.. so we celebrated together. It was very nice.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

ginny

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14505 on: December 24, 2014, 08:08:22 AM »
Happy birthday to both of you!  I love birthdays. It sounds to me, Steph, that you have a wonderfully supportive family. That's lovely, a gift in itself.  

I also like, during the holidays, to hear from people I haven't seen in a while, and I've heard from somebody that used to be on Senior Net a long  time ago....her name is Jeanette Russell and she was in the Walker's group there. She sends greetings to all.

And she wrote that every year  on her birthday she does a 10 mile hike. I seem to remember that she's actually a good bit older  than I am, and  I am not walking 10 feet much less 10 mikes,  but she said that she might go down to 9 miles this year  and I thought what a lovely thing to do on your birthday.

When I turned 60 I set out to do 60 new things of any kind,  just 60 new experiences no matter what it was to celebrate the year.   

This year, 12 years on,  I think I'll try again. And the only stipulation I make on myself that it has to be within the calendar year.


I am sure if the list were made public that a lot of people would find it hilarious. Or even unworthy. Possibly pitiful.   However a new experience is a new experience. I really enjoyed my last experiment with it, it's really quite amazing, the effect it has on you.

Going to give it a whirl.


Many thanks to Jane for the beautiful holiday decorations that she continues to put up in the website headings here. So festive.

Many thanks to all of you for your support of the website.


A wonderful holiday to you all!    

PatH

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14506 on: December 24, 2014, 12:02:57 PM »
What a neat idea, Ginny.  Maybe I'll start the new year by counting new things, and see if I get up to my age by the end of the year.  If it comes out something I'm willing to admit to, I'll report it here.  New could be something tiny, if it meant something to one. 

CallieOK

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14507 on: December 24, 2014, 12:31:45 PM »
Good for you, Ginny!    When I was 60,  I decided to "explore my academic side" and began attending Elderhostels and traveling internationally.
At 70,  I decided I needed a "new project for a new decade" and spent the next 5 1/2 years as an Education Docent at the Oklahoma Historical Museum.  Might be there now except for mobility issues that won't allow me to do that much walking.
As of yesterday, I have one more year until the next decade begins so I have 12 months to find the next challenge.

mabel1015j

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14508 on: December 26, 2014, 10:57:42 AM »
BookGorilla.com has both No Ordinary Time (Eleanor and Franklin R during the lead up to WWII) by Doris Kerns Goodwin and The Johnstown Flood by David McCullough each for $2.99 today.

Jean

ginny

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14509 on: December 26, 2014, 11:17:35 AM »
Oh boy those are both great, I've  always wanted to read about Johnstown flood.   I've got his Brooklyn Bridge but haven't started it either. Thank you Jean!~ Is the Mummer's Day parade going to be on TV? Now that I haven't seen one in something like 60  years I have become very nostalgic about them.  :)

Pat, you're so funny!  I love that if you can put it in public! Hahaha  That's so true!     Hahaha

Callie, how impressive!   It will be interesting to see what you come up with.   As of yesterday? The 23rd?  Happy Happy Birthday, belated as it is!



Steph

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14510 on: December 26, 2014, 01:29:38 PM »
hmm 77 new things. I will give it a shot, but like Pat, no idea iif they will end up printable.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

CallieOK

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14511 on: December 26, 2014, 02:38:50 PM »
Thank you, Ginny.

Of course, the next decade's project may be staying upright and sensible enough to come in out of the rain! hahahahahaha!!!!

PatH

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14512 on: December 26, 2014, 04:29:16 PM »
Hahaha, Callie.  Yes, there's always that.

Frybabe

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14513 on: December 27, 2014, 07:14:27 AM »
The Anonymous group has done it again. Reports just out that they hacked a bunch of websites and got 13,000 (only 13,000?) passwords. Amazon, Walmart and HuluPlus are on the list. http://www.businessinsider.com/hackers-released-13000-passwords-2014-12 This is a reminder to keep an eye on your accounts and change passwords.

Oh, they apparently posted the stolen info on a website called Ghostbin. This is some kind of file sharing site that I never heard of. I don't think I want to take a chance to go to that site to check because I don't know how safe the site itself is.

Steph

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14514 on: December 27, 2014, 09:13:50 AM »
Hacking seems to be a way of life and there is no real reason for most of it. Now I know why my grandson was complaining about not getting on the website, he wanted.. Xbox, I think..
Stephanie and assorted corgi

ANNIE

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14515 on: December 28, 2014, 12:20:07 PM »
Merry Christmas  to all of my SL friends!

Hope your Christmas day went as well as ours did here in downtown Gahanna, Ohio!  It was the best Christmas ever!  Which in my family is the highest praise given!  We just had a fabulous day.

 We hosted the day but our grans fixed and brought  most of the dinner.  I did make a new delicious sweet potato casserole which was a winner. Got it from the Alll Reciipes online. Offered by Chef John, it was touted as being less sweet than all offerings on the site. It will now be a tradition taking the place of candied sweet potato casserole.  Thank goodness for that  Smiley   Wink  Oh, and I had baked earlier in the week, a mince meat pie which was well received by the older members at the table.  For others, the pumpkin and fruit pies brought by DIL's parents were just fine!

After dinner, we went straight to the  great room to open gifts!  I had filled two bags apiece for each gran, sort of like a divided stocking. These are four teenagers!   Each received feathered socks and a grapefruit in the first bag and in the second a chocolate Santa plus a gift card.  The grapefruit was the most talked about gift that night.  One of the girls even took a selfie of herself holding up the grapefruit and sent it to her Facebook page!  I guess I should explain why grapefruit?  It's that family's favorite breakfast fruit but my DIL hardly ever buys them.  We, on the other hand, always have them in our frig.  I put two in their parent's bag along with the Longhorn gift card which they always appreciate.  Lots of laughter rang out!   It was such a fun night!  BEST CHRISTMAS EVER!
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

Tomereader1

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14516 on: December 28, 2014, 08:47:50 PM »
Oh, I love Mince meat pie.  Was this an old fashioned, home made version?  I like any version!!!
The reading of a fine book is an uninterrupted dialogue in which the book speaks and our soul replies.


André Maurois

maryz

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14517 on: December 28, 2014, 10:14:20 PM »
John's birthday is in late November.  His "birthday cake" is always mincemeat pie.  I've never made it from scratch or even had it.  I've always used Nonesuch brand, usually with some chopped apple in it.
"When someone you love dies, you never quite get over it.  You just learn how to go on without them. But always keep them safely tucked in your heart."

salan

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14518 on: December 29, 2014, 03:57:52 AM »
My husband's favorite pie was mince meat.  I've never made it, but my mother always baked it for him.  She used nonsuch mince meat and added chopped apples & chopped pecans to it.
Sally

Frybabe

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Re: The Library
« Reply #14519 on: December 29, 2014, 05:59:56 AM »
I haven't had mince meat pie in years. The last time I looked for mincemeat, as I recall, I had difficulty finding it. The pie I liked the best was a layered mincemeat/pumpkin pie. And, as far as pumpkin pie goes, I don't like the ones heavy on the spices.