Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online

[Jonathan]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

January-February Book Club Online

Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell

Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece.  Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society. The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55.  Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain.

You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg

Discussion Schedule: Part 4   Feb.2-Feb.11     Feb.2 - Feb.8}       Chapter 31. A Passive Coquette       Chapter 32. Coming Events       Chapter 33. Brightening Prospects       Chapter 34. A Lover's Mistake       Chapter 35. The Mother's Manoeuvre       Chapter 36. Domestic Diplomacy       Chapter 37. A Fluke, And What Came Of It

Some Things to Think About
Feb.2-Feb.8 Chapters XXXI-XXXVII

Let's bring up any words or phrases throughout the book with which we are unfamiliar.

CHAPTER XXXI.    A Passive Coquette
     1. At the ball, we saw that Cynthia disliked Mr. Preston.  Why does she now enjoy his attentions?
     2. Preston’s loyalty to his employer makes him want to “scatter his enemies”.  What is the reference?
     3. What shows us a change in Squire Hamley's attitude toward Roger?

CHAPTER XXXII.   Coming Events
     1. It's important that Osborne's coming child be legitimate.  Do his two marriages to Aimée sound like something that would stand up in court?  Is it overcautious for Roger to make them marry again?

CHAPTER XXXIII   Brightening Prospects
     1. Roger’s tutor says that Roger’s success is only half owing to his mental powers, and half to his perfect health, which enabled him to work harder without suffering.  Does this make sense?  How does it fit in with ideas of the time?

CHAPTER XXXIV   A Lover's Mistake
     1. What is the mistake?
     2. Is a marriage between Roger and Cynthia likely to be happy?
     3. On her walk, Molly wonders if she should call her stepmother’s untruthfulness to her father’s attention.  Would this be a good idea?
     4. Cynthia says: “or some one else may turn up and say I’m engaged to him”.  What’s that about?

CHAPTER XXXV    The Mother's Manoeuvre
     1. Should Mrs. Gibson have realized how seriously wrong it was to act on the information she overheard by eavesdropping?
     2. Mr. Gibson finally has to face up to his wife's character.  How will he handle this?
     3. Why is it so important to Cynthia to keep her engagement secret?
 

CHAPTER XXXVI   Domestic Diplomacy
    1.  What do you think of the games Mrs. Gibson and Cynthia are playing over whether they will lunch with Squire Hamley?
    2.  What is Mr. Gibson's attitude toward the possibility of Molly marrying?

CHAPTER XXXVII  A Fluke, And What Came Of It
     1.  What is the fluke?
     2.  For a second time a young man has turned his attention from Molly to Cynthia.  Does Molly mind?
     3.  Why is Molly so unhappy this winter?
     4.  Mr. Preston continues to seem sinister.  What is going on?

 

DLs: Marcie,  Joanp,  Barb,  Pedln,  
PatH,  ADOANNIE

'I wish Roger was here...He's not the eldest son, but he'd take an interest in the estate; and he'd do up these weary accounts for me...I wish Roger was here!'

That's the squire's lament at the end of Chapter 22. And Roger, we've been told, does make the rounds of the estate with his father, if only to find new things of nature. Flora and fauna.

Bellamarie say she's a hopeless romantic and loves surprises and mysteries. This is the book for you. And for me. And for Molly. She admits to looking for a real love story. Is she the central character in the book? She's always there, isn't she, JoanP? Sometimes I think of her as another reader, like all of us. I'm far along in the reading, just too curious, so I should be careful about what I say. I still pick Clare as the hero, despite all the nasty things said about her. However there are surprises and mysteries all along, as far as I have read. And I find that rereading leads to fresh surprises. And more mystery. This author is fun to be with. All over the place. But who wouldn't be, dealing with so much hopeless romance. I never knew there were so many roadblocks put in the way of true love in Victorian England.

[Lucylibr]

The estate where Downton Abbey is filmed and many other great English estates have been opened for public viewing for a fee, a means of making money, which their owners say is necessary if they are to survive.  Of course this hadn't been thought of in Mrs. Gaskell's day.

[JoanP]

Jonathan, I wonder just what Roger can do to save the estate, no matter what his good intentions or careful management.     The Hamleys' estate needs so much work...and capital - the land is going to ruin. There is no money to maintain the land or to pay anyone to help.  (Roger is supporting Osborne's wife with half of his Fellowship money.  Can't help with the estate too.)  
 Lucy, I don't think anyone would pay to tour the Hamley Estate, even if Roger had come up with the idea.

Annie, I reread the Rivalry chapter to read "Alnachar" in context.  Don't you wonder if Mrs. Gaskell's readers were familiar with the terms she uses...and the many literary references?  Either this woman is very well-educated or very well-read.  I can't decide which, can you?

Looking at the context, I'd say she was referring to  "someone who dreams of the wealth or someone who gets wealth from the sale of his glassware"...in this case, Mrs. G. was dreaming of the wealth from the sale of her glassware daughter to the weathy Mr. Hollingworth when he came to visit Molly again...her bait would have been Cynthia.  He never came so that dream is out the window.  Better stick to Osborne...

I'm thinking now that the Rivalry described by this title refers to the rivalry between Osborne and Mr. Preston for Cynthia's attention...over those nosegays.  I cringed again at Mrs. Gibson's treatment of Roger...fearing that an attachment might grow between Roger and Cynthia in Osborne's absence.  If anything, her terrible words she uses to describe him can only make Cynthia come to his defense...and can't you just feel their effect on Molly?

The title of the next chapter - "Bush-Fight," I gather is the fight between Roger and Mr. Preston over the accusation of trespassing on to the Hamley land.  Now we have the animosity between Roger and Mr. Preston, which is even stronger than that which exists between Osborne and Mr. Preston.  

The plot thickens!

[Jonathan]

Does this book have a plot? The question came to me when I read Lucy's post of a few days ago. She couldn't remember a plot from a reading some years ago. I took that as a statement about the nature of the narrative. I find the book unique. But 'the plot thickens' is an apt phrase, JoanP, and does describe what's happening. What interests me about the book, as much as anything, is the mind of Mrs Gaskell. I would like to find a biography. Can anyone suggest one?

'Either this woman is very well-educated or very well-read.  I can't decide which, can you?'

Good question. Certainly well read. My book is very thoroughly edited. A lot of work went into finding a source for the many allusions and unusual phrases. As an example it's interesting how Gaskell treats death scenes. No long, drawn-out deathbed scenes, but short, moving phrases that touch ones soul.

Silas, the dying gamekeeper asks to see his lord and master, Squire Hamley. The squire goes out, has the terrible confrontation with Preston, lashes himself into an impotent rage, then goes to the cottage, where Silas lies dying.

'So they went to the cottage, the squire speaking never a word, but suddenly feeling as if lifted out of a whirlwind and set down in a still and awful place

I remember being struck by Gaskell description of Mrs Hamley's death in a few choice words:

' - the end came. Mrs Hamley had sunk out of life as gradually as she had sunk out of consciousness and her place knew her no more.'

The editor found a source for that in the Book of Job 7: 10. For the Squires 'awful place', the editor drew a blank while suggesting a biblical source. Why, I wonder, didn't he try 'out of a whirlwind'?  That's a very biblical phrase.

What a succinctness to describe these solemn events, but so much to say about all the life she finds in the little town of Hollingford. Which is as it should be, I suppose.

[bellamarie]

JoanK.,  I was speaking of Mr. Darcey and Elizabeth in Pride and Prejudice.  Remember he leaves her a letter on the table, she reads it and it makes his feelings for her, and everything else clear to her.  That is what brought them together at last.  It is my favorite Austen book!

[bellamarie]

These three recent chapters has me befuddled.  I feel like this story is getting dragged out much too long.  We all are aware that Preston has something he is holding over Clare and Cynthia and possibly Harriet.  We know Roger is smitten with Cynthia and that Osborne is married, and NOW Aimee is pregnant.  It is taking Gaskell an awfully long time with repetitive scenes, making me a bit bored with all of this.  So Osborne's poems have been rejected, how much longer does he intend to leave his now pregnant wife waiting?  How much longer til Roger professes his love for Cynthia and gets to find out if she indeed is available, when does Molly finally get to have someone giving her attention, and when are we going to learn Preston's secret.  For all the stitching Clare has done, I would imagine she could have made a bedspread by now.  Does she sit in her chair from sun up to sun down stitching? 

I was abhorred at the visual, of the squire ready to give Preston a thrashing for his rudeness.  This new generation seems to be fancy free, and not adhere to rules or etiquette.  Someone mentioned this was a story of manners.  I think it's more a lack there of.  Roger is coming all hours of the morning, afternoon and night without an invitation, Clare is horribly rude to Roger, when she could simply use her manners with him. The servants are taking liberty and not using respect or manners with the owners of the estates, and the Duchess and the Towers people come to the ball terribly late, around midnight.  The way Preston spoke to the squire would have been unheard of.  I did feel sorry for the squire and Roger for the way they were not given any respect.

I don't watch Downtown Abby, but I see you who do are making comparisons.  Are the younger generations as rude to their elders?

An entire chapter about the nosegays, seemed a tad bit much.  I would assume Mrs. Gaskell is not only well educated, but also well read.  I know her book North and South was very popular and the television mini series was a big hit!  I guess I just feel she is taking way to long to get this story moving along at this point in the book.  I would like to see more progress and action.

Jonathon,

"Does this book have a plot?"

I am beginning to wonder that same question.......

Ciao for now~

 

[Lucylibr]

I think the fact that this novel was published serially accounts in part for its rambling structure.  People who were eagerly waiting to read one chapter at a time and didn't have much to read or much entertainment didn't mind being sent into various twists and turns and didn't see the novel as a single structure which needed details building to a climax and resolution of that climax. Even modern novels are not necessarily very clear in direction.  The Husband's Secret, which was so enthusiastically recommended to me, I am having a hard time getting a grip on. It jumps all over  different time periods with different groups of characters.

Note that Preston has learned to shrug and raise his eyebrows in France.  Did he spend time with Cynthia in France or maybe follow her into France?  These gestures of course further anger the squire.

[JoanP]

Lucy, your reminder that Mrs. Gaskell's story first appeared in serialized form goes a long way to explain the rambling nature of the novel - and Bella's desire to stay with the plot line.  One observation...the detailed issues Gaskell describes must have been of great interest to her readers.  These changes she writes about were affecting a great number of people, both socially and economically. Perhaps they were as interested reading of these matters as they were of the plot!

Another thought - wouldn't a film adaptation tighten things up..and stay with the plot? (Yes, I do believe there is a plot here. )
I was pleasantly surprised to learn there was  a TV mini- series on Masterpiece in 1999.  Husband says we probably watched it. Do you remember it?  He loves Francesca Annis, who played Clare. We just ordered it on Netflix - three discs!  Here 's one review...don't worry, there are no spoilers...expect for the fact that Mrs. Gaskell died before completing her novel...but we knew that...

"The BBC is well known for its high quality costume dramas and this is one of the best in recent years. Elizabeth Gaskell is not an author that I was familiar with except for her usually being known as 'Mrs. Gaskell', which immediately makes her work offer the prospect of being a bit staid. Well not a bit of it! This production is intelligent, witty and thoroughly charming throughout. When it was shown as a serial, I couldn't wait for the next episode! Every member of the cast is exceptional, but special praise for Justine Waddell and Francesca Annis. I defy anybody not to become thoroughly involved in the story of Molly and her family/friends. Elizabeth Gaskell never finished the novel, sadly dying before its completion, but I feel certain that she would have wholeheartedly approved of the BBC's ending which is absolutely heartwarming."

[JoanP]

I totally missed Mr. Preston's French shrug, Lucy.Clever way to put Mr. Preston and Cynthia together in a location other than the Tower, if that turns out to be.  What IS  the secret?

Mrs. Gaskell has created a character easy to hate...to identify as the villain in the piece, no? Is she portraying Mr. Preston as the new Liberal Whig who regards the old titled landowner with disdain, whose time has passed?  Or is he envious of those with status?  Can't decide.

I don't see Roger as a defender of " the Old Ways" as described in the title of chapter 30 - but rather a son, demanding his father be treated with respect by the younger Mr. Preston, because of his age.

I'm amused at the situation Gaskell is developing...Mr. Preston is loyal to the Whig views of his employer, Lord  Hollingford, enjoying his position managing his land - looking down on the Hamleys - while Roger continues to grow in Lord Hollingford's esteem.  Love it!

[Jonathan]

Why look for a plot? Just enjoy. Do we look for a plot in Don Quixote? Or in Dante's Divine Comedy? I believe Gaskell's purpose in this novel goes beyond plot. This is her attempt at seeing a human comedy, including the tragedy. And she was, after all, a feminist. And she was a member of that gang  that included Dickens and Wilkie Collins whose aim was to 'keep 'em laughing, keep 'em crying, keep 'em waiting'.

Gaskell adds one more: 'make 'em angry'. Telling you more would be a spoiler. Read on.

[bellamarie]

Jonathon,  No fair!!!  You have read way ahead if not already completed the book, so you can dangle the carrots in front of us knowing things we don't. 

Gaskell adds one more: 'make 'em angry'.

  She has indeed aroused a bit of frustration in me, almost to the point of anger, due to her lengthiness of this story.  The humor left chapters ago, the "keep em waiting" has almost gotten me disinterested.

Gaskell has NO single plot, she has various sub plots, that I expect, but am not convinced, will tie in together in the end.  Or not.  Lucy, reminding us these were series, makes me wonder if indeed that is why the book goes on and on and on, in my opinion a bit repetitive and much to do about nothin, as the saying goes, she keeps the income coming in, and the readers wanting more, sort of like a Soap Opera.   

JoanP.,

I don't see Roger as a defender of " the Old Ways" as described in the title of chapter 30 - but rather a son, demanding his father be treated with respect by the younger Mr. Preston, because of his age.

I completely agree.  I saw Roger chastising Preston for his rudeness, and lack of respect for the elder squire.  I felt sad for the squire.

Ciao for now~   

[bellamarie]

The medicines available to this era are self limiting, aren't they?  As Cynthia is offered "a sweet emulsion that will hide the bitters", she says she prefers the bitters without the sweetness.  And after taking them for a few days, Cynthia seems to be recovering from "sorrows and cares".  I am curious about bitters and what exactly they are expected to do.

I am thinking they had medication to help with depression.  Did you notice Mr. Gibson also treats Osborne.  Their conditions sounded as if they were depressed.

Cynthia saying, " she prefers the bitters without the sweetness" made me think it was her way of saying she wants the bad taste, rather than it taste good.  It made me think it is her bad mood, depression she is in.  I think after that ball, and how Preston treated her, it would cause her to be depressed.  Cynthia is suffering inside, she doesn't feel she deserves, good and happy things, that is why she fusses so much over Molly.  It is rather sad.  I feel sadness in her.

Ciao for now~

[PatH]

I’m back from vacation now, and have finally caught up with both the reading and all your good comments.  Now we’re starting a new section, full of Mrs. Gaskell’s twists and turns.

For those of you without chapter headings or numbers, 31, A Passive Coquette, starts just after the fight between Preston and the Hamleys, with a lengthy description contrasting Preston’s social life in Hollingford with that of his predecessor.

In the last chapter of this section, 37, A Fluke, and What Came of It, Mr. Coxe reappears, and the chapter ends with a discussion between Molly and Cynthia about Roger.

I’ve put up new questions, but with so many plot twists, the questions for the later chapters can’t help being spoilers, so you might want to read the section first.

[ANNIE]

PatH, I've been away from my computer due to not feeling well and I wanted to leave a message for LucyLbr about estate managers in England. Its an interesting history which was taught  later as a college degree.  That's why William, Duke of Cornwall, is returning to school taking classes to educate him about estate management.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_of_Estate_Management

[PatH]

Lucy should see it here.

Take care of yourself, Annie, and get better as fast as you can.

[JoanP]

Yes, take care of yourself and rest, Annie  We're missing you.

Yikes, Path...I  thought I was all caught up, read the first seven chapters,  but  I drew a blank on the first question.  Memory loss! 
 1. At the ball, we saw that Cynthia disliked Mr. Preston.  Why does she now enjoy his attentions? 
How could I forget that Cynthia is actually enjoying the company of that terrible, bullying man? 

I'm going to fix some chicken wings - then reread Chapter 31 and join you this afternoon when I refresh my memory!

[PatH]

I have the same problem.  The book is so rich in detail, and the story loops around so, that sometimes I lose my way.  Rereading goes fast, though.

[JoanP]

I get it!  After rereading Chapter 31, I see that Mr. Preston is stalking poor Cynthia.  He replies to every invitation...unlike his predecessor, Mr. Sheepshanks.  At one point in this chapter, Sheepshanks asks what the fellow (Preston) is after accepting all invitations - Mrs. Gaskell answers his question - "he went whenever there was a chance of meeting Miss Cynthia Kirkpatrick."

Does she really enjoy Mr. Preston's attention?  I think not.  I think she is acting.  Over-acting perhaps.
What else can she do?  Mr. Gibson thinks she is in a mental fever of some kind.  Cynthia and Mr. Preston share a secret.  He's threatening her with it.  Now he's turning up wherever she goes.  Oh no, she's not enjoying his attention, but she's responding the only way she knows how.  You have to wonder what effect her hyper behavior has on Mr. Preston.

[Jonathan]

Good to have you back, Pat. You've provided us with a fine set of questions for the new chapters. I've been pondering the last one from page one: 'What is going on?' Twists and turns. Much ado about nothing. Sort of like a soap opera. Frustration and anger. I enjoy reading about your feelings, Bellamarie. I share some of them. Stay with it. The lives of the wives and daughters do get interesting. And especially the lives of two teenage girls and their romancing. How does a girl make her way in this world? What does it take? What does one need? What are the risks in flirting?

Poor Mr Preston. So madly in love. So are they all. All except the beloved. What is it with all the illness in the story. Do they all die of it in the end? Broken hearts everywhere.

There's some great humor ahead. Great psychological insights into matters of the heart. And maintaining your place in society.

[bellamarie]

PatH.,  Welcome back, you were very much missed as was Annie.  I am glad to hear you are feeling a bit better Annie.  And ALAS! PatH., has heightened my interest with this....

"In the last chapter of this section, 37, A Fluke, and What Came of It, Mr. Coxe reappears"

I am so excited to read this PatH.!  I have all along known Coxe would sooner or later return.  I have not yet started the next chapters but am now going to tackle them.

Jonathon,

"Poor Mr Preston. So madly in love. So are they all. All except the beloved. What is it with all the illness in the story. Do they all die of it in the end? Broken hearts everywhere."

Oh my gosh......I read this and truly laughed out loud!!!  I have wondered this same thing.  These young folks get so tired just attending a ball, and God forbid should they experience a disagreeable situation, they get sick at the drop of a hat.  Now that is a novel idea, they all die of a broken heart in the end.  Bwahahahahhaha....thank you for bringing the humor back.

I am watching the Superbowl, but don't really have a dog in the fight, so to speak, so I guess I will read the next chapters to catch up so I don't see any more spoilers.

Ciao for now~

[Lucylibr]

Thanks, Annie.  I was wondering just what Prince William was up to.  Do you think all those royal men are more doers and hands on people than scholars?  I believe William found his undergraduate studies difficult and Kate kept him on track. My concern now (as an old lady busybody) is why he can't take his wife and son with him for his course of studies. He may need her again to keep him on track and out of the bars.

[bellamarie]

Ludylibr,  I think you have William mixed up with Harry.  Harry is the heavy party bar goer/drinker.  I think both boys have their mother's nature for humanity, and not so much scholars.  With their titles and inheritance, I suspect studies are not going to be as important to them as other men.  You mentioning Kate keeping William focused in college, is a bit funny, when I think of how he first met her dancing in scantily covered clothes showing more than I would call proper!  Speaking of keeping focused, it reminds me of Michelle Obama having to tutor Barrack, and trying to keep him focused. He would show up late for tutoring and not pay attention, and we all know, he admittedly did drugs galore in college.  He seems a bit ADDHD with no disrespect intended.  Doesn't it seem many 1st Ladies were the driving force behind the successful men in position?  

p.s.  I guess I did have a dog in that fight in the Super Bowl, seems I won 1st place in our pool!!!  I didn't even pay attention to my squares. 

[Lucylibr]

No, I don't have them mixed up.  Harry is a bigger partier, but William did his share. But it's good that they are sociable and outgoing and make royalty seem more accessible.

In chapter 31, I didn't think Cynthia enjoyed Preston's company but she is captivated by all the attention she is getting and enjoys it very much.  She realizes that she is in demand and the "queen" of the social scene.

[PatH]

I agree, Lucy.  Cynthia needs attention from whatever source.

[Jonathan]

hahaha, Bellamarie Look for the spoilers in the book. There are a few. And they're all women. They're more than the driving force. They drive the action.

I can't wait for your reaction when Coxe reappears. It will turn the book around for you. Things begin to get very serious for everyone. I hope it doesn't spoil it for you to hear that there is no ending. Well, it does in a way end with the death of the author. The author of her own misfortune. Just did not leave herself enough heart to go on. And the readers can conclude from that how much of her heart went into this book. Spoilers only work on a very superficial reading of a book such as this. She has painted unforgettable scenes. And the best are yet to come. It just keeps getting more difficult to choose the hero (non-gender). I think in the end I may go with the squire's old horse out in the pasture. He looks like a survivor to me.

[Jonathan]

I just placed a hold on the DVD. Five hours! I want to see the old squire allowing his two-year-old grandson to puff on his pipe, with Aimee practically dying of a heart attack.

[bellamarie]

Holy Cow!  Jonathon more spoilers!!!!!   A 2 yr old grandson and Aimee "with" the squire.  Egads...I guess I better get reading.

It just keeps getting more difficult to choose the hero (non-gender). I think in the end I may go with the squire's old horse out in the pasture. He looks like a survivor to me.

Hilarious!!!  The horse of course!   LOLOLOLOLOL  I knew Gaskell dies unexpectedly before she completes the book....I just wonder if she knew she had health problems, if she would have carried this story on so long, when it could have been wrapped up so much sooner.  I can't wait to get to Coxe's return.....don't tell me.....I hope he is not happily married or my romantic theory is shot!  But then, it won't be the first twist and turn for me in this story.

Lucylibr,  I suppose all young college boys and girls do their share of partying at that age.  I have heard nothing to indicate he has done anything of the such since his marriage, so I think Kate and Prince George are secure while he is away.  But then you never know, do you. LOLOL  I have followed this royal family since the engagement of Princess Di and Charles and I sense William is a stable, caring, loyal family man, while Harry is still into the party mode.  I just hope the best for them all, they have suffered enough disappointment, and tragedy in their young lives. Can you tell I have a special affection for these boys?  I have an Ashton Drake Princess Di doll collection and every book about her I could get my hands on.  So I suppose I could consider myself a bit of a busy body too.  LOLOL  What is it about them that fascinated me and still does?  I just NEVER cared for Charles or Camille.  Ughh....now that is a very dowdy couple indeed.    

Ciao for now~

[JoanP]

"Cynthia needs attention from whatever source."

I agree, Pat...to a point.  I still don't think she welcomes Mr. Preston's attention.  But if there are many dance partners in attendance when they meet, I think she can easily avoid him.  I sense she is afraid of him - the "mental fever" Mr. Gibson noticed seems to back this up.  She's not a carefree young lady, enjoying the attention from all of the "boys" equally.  Jonathan, you sound as if you pity poor Preston.  I guess I can too - as long as he doesn't start threatening or bullying Cynthia to gain her affection.

While Cynthia turns into a real extrovert, Molly becomes more and more withdrawn and depressed.  Why?  It appears to be because Roger, not Osborne, is spending more time with Cynthia.  Why does this bother Molly?  She knows Osborne is married, so this should come as a relief to her, shouldn't it?

We know Clare much prefers Osborne to Roger - Osborne is the heir to the Hamley estate. Jonathan - is it a fact the Aimee and Osborne had a son?  If so, the male child is the heir  - right?  As long as Osborne can prove they are legally or "officially"  married?  Is this an issue?  What do you think it means?  Married in the Church of England? Or just married in England?

I too can't wait for you to catch up to Mr. Coxe's return, Bellamarie - don't want to give anything away until then, but will only say what happened was predictable.

[Lucylibr]

Bella: It's because of their strong family values I thought William would bring his family with him and expose them to new experiences too. Of course the baby is too young to be involved, and with all the security they require it may be just too difficult to relocate.

Now I am getting excited about the story. Luckily I have a snowy day indoors to read, and by the looks of the weather report quite a few days ahead when I won't be going out.  I have a concert ticket tonight but will not be able to attend.

[PatH]

Bellamarie, don't try to read up to that spoiler about the squire.  That's WAAAY farther along.

Miscellaneous topics:

In the part we are reading now, we know that Osborne's wife is expecting a child.  If it's a boy, he has to be legitimate to be the heir.  JoanP, I'm not sure what forms of marriage would be accepted by English law, but they would have to be prepared for the Irish cousins to contest anything that looked slipshod.  Osborne seems to have paid little attention to detail here.  The French civil marriage sounds OK, but Osborne doesn't even know where the papers are.  The marriage done by his friend in the Anglican church in Karlsrühe sounds pretty dubious.  The friend probably didn't have legal status to perform marriages in France, and no one knows if he actually filed a record of the ceremony.

The book was almost completely finished when Mrs. Gaskell died, and it seems pretty obvious how it would end.  But, given the way she keeps us guessing and shifts and changes, we can't be altogether sure.  Her publisher has summarized what Mrs. G told him, which is fairly complete.  I rather like the slight uncertainty--don't think it spoils anything.

I like Jonathan's suggestion that everyone is going to sicken and die of a broken heart.   Not Cynthia, though; she's a survivor.  If she were going to have a broken heart, it would have happened when she was a young child, and "had seen so little of her mother in the days when the little girl had craved for love and found none".

[bellamarie]

JoanP.,

I too can't wait for you to catch up to Mr. Coxe's return, Bellamarie - don't want to give anything away until then, but will only say what happened was predictable.

Well, well, well, it was inevitable Coxe would return, but .....I can NOT agree with what happens as predictable!  I am a bit disappointed, but not devastated in the direction she took tying up the Coxe part of the book.  Coxe is a successful, rich man, but come on, one look at Cynthia and he has decided all his feelings for Molly are null and void.  Oh for heaven's sake.  I truly had to crack up with Dr. Gibson telling Coxe he is welcome to reveal his feelings to Cynthia, but it will get him no where. Once again, Gibson is shattering poor Coxe's love life.  Shame on Cynthia, she is shameless knowing Coxe was falling for her and yet she encouraged him, then speaking so degrading of him.  She really does have to be the center of everyone's attention, regardless if she finds them despicable, unappealing, loathing, etc .  I loved how Dr. Gibson gave her a real talking to for her actions.  Clare and Cynthia have NO scruples or shame.  

So poor dear Molly is hopelessly, desperately in love with Roger afterall.  She tried so hard to deny her feelings, by calling it a sisterly love for him, but now that he has gone and proposed to Cynthia, and left for parts unknown, she is just heartsick.  And to sit back and see Cynthia take advantage of Roger is so hard to witness.  Molly and Dr. Gibson sure got a good dose of reality of Clare and Cynthia in these chapters.

So much happened in these chapters.  I get the clear impression by Cynthia's chat with Molly, that Preston must have bailed Clare out financially at Ashcombe, and in turn she may have promised him Cynthia's hand in marriage, so this could be the secret they are hiding.  Cynthia is repeatedly stating the marriage of her and Roger will not happen, and asks Molly, would it be so awful if she married Preston!  Why would she even entertain that thought, and bring it out in the open, if there is NO chance in the world it would happen?

I have to admit, I am very impressed with how Gaskell is beginning to bring closure, and revealing things that shows a possible direction in where she is taking this story.  Although, I will be ready to see it take many different twists and turns.....how can it not?

PatH., No fear, I never read ahead, I love the suspense of learning as we go.  The legitimacy of the marriage sure does bring a whole new light on the heir to the estate.  Roger wants to take care of this whole matter immediately, he does not want loose strings where this is concerned.  Roger has such a more logical approach to life matters.  He is a doer, while Osborne sits back just doing nothing, but moaning about his situation.  What a real disappointment he has turned out to be.  

Ciao for now~

[Lucylibr]

Bella:You have given us good insight into these last chapters by focusing on the important events.

Going back a bit, to the question about Roger's health being the reason for his academic success as much as his mental powers, I at first found this insulting to the character who appears to be the hero of the book, almost unbelievably capable and honest and responsible. In fact, Roger seems almost too good to be true, but I think everything Mrs. Gaskell says about him she believes. But the Victorians had different views about health and sickness than we have.  As someone pointed out earlier, they are pale, drawn, tired, after a walk and constantly alert to the affects of weather, diet, and activity on health. They didn't have scientific knowledge of medicine and fell back on these notions to explain vagaries of health.  I suspect they were at times just depressed or unhappy about the turn of events in their lives and used health as a way of dealing with them.  I don't think the medicine that was given was much good, but they expected it to make them feel better and so it did.  Some of it probaly had opium or alcohol in it, which is mood changing and makes one feel better.

[Lucylibr]

Another question: how does Mr. Gibson handle knowledge of his wife's character?  When he finds out that she believes Osborne's life is in danger he confronts her and demands to know where she got this knowledge and if that was the reason she began encouraging Roger's attention to Cynthia. She has seriously betrayed his trust and as husband and wife they must share the same values.  But she acts as though it is not so serious, and he realizes that she "either can't or won't see what I mean." But he must guard against such lapses in the future and accepts that he can't change the past.  In this scene he is forthright and does the best he can, but later on he is passive aggressive, sarcastic and short tempered with her and unable to forget the wrong she has done.  But what can he do?  Divorce would be very drastic and maybe not even possible.  They could separate and live apart, which I think was sometimes done in this period.  But both he and Molly put up with Mrs. Gibson and especially Molly tries to preserve harmony in the household.  Isn't that what many people still do? Molly knew long before her father what Clare was really like but said nothing for the sake of maintaining peace. Molly, like Roger, is unbelievably good and long suffering, and they do seem perfect for each other, although I have no knowledge of how the plot is resolved.

[bellamarie]

Lucylibr, I agree I think the medicine that was given to these depressed young people was opium, or some sort of mood altering, to snap them out of their melancholy moods.  They all sure are fragile people.

The whole chapter on revealing Clare's deceptive, intrusive and manipulative ways, was the straw that broke the camel's back, for Mr. Gibson.  He really has done all he could to keep the peace in his home, but after Cynthia flirting with Coxe, and accepting Roger's proposal, when he feels she is not the least bit in love or worthy of either man, was not enough, then he finds Clare has eavesdropped in on his professional conversation with Dr. Nicholl's, and used the information to her own advantage, to make sure Cynthia gets the right heir to the Hamley estate.  Mr. Gibson realizes that she and her daughter just are not honest and trustworthy, and now he must live in caution, to make sure Clare never has the opportunity to ever use his medical confidence again.  That was pretty shocking, even for me who has always seen Clare as a despicable person.  Now Molly and her father realize these two are never going to share their morals and values.  I do not ever see a divorce, Mr. Gibson will just go on living with Clare, and probably will never love her, or trust her ever again.  He will go about his life as usual, gone away from home and ignoring her pretty much when he is at home.

I agree, Molly and Roger seem perfect for each other, but why do I fear he will die from some sort of fever or disease?  Maybe I just am not trusting in Gaskell's judgement, where love is concerned.  This book has had more tragedy than happiness....instead of Jane Austen, I am feeling more of Shakespeare now. Ughhh....

Ciao for now~

[Jonathan]

How complicated can it get! This book plays havoc with the readers feelings and sympathies. I really appreciate all the insights in your posts. They are all to be pitied. Eventually it all got to be too much for the author herself.

Take, for example, the perplexed stepfather and doctor, and his conclusions about Cynthia:'She is in a mental fever of some kind, thought he to himself. She is very fascinating, but I don't quite understand her.' Cynthia is the passive coquette of the chapter heading, is she not. Can't we see a serious problem in those two words?

Of course I like Mr Preston. He's young and clever. He's a competent manager for Lord Cumnor. We hear of his 'affability, and sociability, and amiability, and a variety of other agreeable 'ilities' '. And 'he went wherever he had a chance of meeting Cynthia Kirkpatrick.'

And two pages along we read about Roger: 'It was only the thought of Cynthia that threw Roger off his balance...he went on seeking Cynthia's sweet company, listening to the music of her voice, basking in her sunshine, and finding his passion in every possible way...he knew it was folly - and yet he did it.'

But Cynthia feels miserable at times. She's not out to 'catch' anyone. She's just being herself. If anyone in the book has feelings of guilt, it's Cynthia.

[Jonathan]

'Maybe I just am not trusting in Gaskell's judgement, where love is concerned.'

I just read your glorious post, Bellamarie. Granted, Clare is a very calculating mother and wife. And she tries to do her best with Molly. As for her husband. He's never home when the tough decisions have to be made.

[bellamarie]

Jonathon,

'Clare is a very calculating mother and wife. And she tries to do her best with Molly.

I'm not so sure Clare really does try to do her best with Molly.  She does what is expected, as long as it does not in any way interfere or deny her own daughter Cynthia, of what she thinks is the "best' and then she considers Molly.  I am not saying it's wrong of her to do this, because I do believe a biological mother, will have the natural instincts to want what is best for her own child first and foremost, yet still care for, and want good for her stepchild.  IMO Clare just has a defect in her character.  In no way is it right for her to listen in on two doctors privileged, confidential, medical conversation, and use that information to her advantage to manipulate her daughter's future.  Maybe, you are correct in saying "her best," and this is all she is capable of. 

And as for: 

As for her husband. He's never home when the tough decisions have to be made.

What tough decisions has there been for Mr. Gibson to be there to help make?  Clare decides for everyone and that is that!  His job as a town doctor keeps him away, while Clare has the luxury of sitting and stitching all day, and manipulating everyone's lives.  There just is no acceptable explanation for Clare's behavior.

How complicated can it get! This book plays havoc with the readers feelings and sympathies.

I agree!  I find myself in knots trying to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, or try to have some sympathy for their situation, only for Gaskell to come up with reasons for me to conclude, they do not deserve it.  She is one enigmatic writer for sure. 

These chapters were jam packed, and I feel like I need to go back and read them once again, yet I fear I will only find myself more frustrated.  Gaskell made every effort to show the readers, Mr. Gibson and Molly how untrustworthy, calculating, manipulating, and selfish Clare and Cynthia really are.  As far as I am concerned Gaskell left no doubt or leeway for me to want to think either of them are redeemable, regardless of their reasons why they are the way they are.  Yet, where Cynthia is concerned I want to care about her. As a mother of a daughter and a grandmother of five granddaughters, one at the age I have seen her have her first infatuation, and her heart be rejected,  I want to wrap my arms around Cynthia, hug her, tell her it's okay to open her heart, even if it risks getting broken. (Which is what I have done with my sweet adorable daughter and granddaughter)  Although, IF Cynthia, knows her hand has been promised to Mr. Preston, due to him helping out Clare at Ashcombe, she may have closed her heart off for good, knowing it would not be free to be open to love anyone, especially not Preston.  AND....IF Preston has this agreement/contract with Clare, it would solidify to me, he is as despicable as Clare.

Jonathon, I know you have read ahead, so I am wondering if your loyalty to Clare, and Preston, are due to the fact you have inside knowledge, to warrant you seeing these two people in a better light?  So far, I have no reason to see them as anything other than controlling, and lacking in moral values and character.

I just may need a dose of that medicine, Dr. Gibson is handing out for melancholy, after these chapters.

Ciao for now~

[PatH]

I just may need a dose of that medicine, Dr. Gibson is handing out for melancholy, after these chapters.

LOL


Poor Mr. Gibson—such irony.  He married in part to protect Molly from Mr. Coxe and to give her a mother's good influence as she entered adulthood.  So Mr. Coxe promptly leaves, and now he realizes that "the wife he had chosen had a very different standard of conduct to that which he had upheld all his life, and had hoped to have seen inculcated in his daughter."  But it isn't high tragedy.  He was obviously attracted to Clare for her own sake too, and some of this will remain.  Mrs. G. will still keep his house running smoothly, even though not to his taste.  And Molly seems to have made her own standard of conduct, mostly based on his, and to be resistant to changing it.

I’m sorry for Mr. Coxe, too.  His author is using him for comic relief.  When he appears: “He was now rich, though still a red-haired young man.”  Mr. Gibson is touched by him, gives him a fair chance, while hoping that “Molly would not be such a goose as to lend a willing ear to a youth who could never remember the difference between apophysis and epiphysis.”  He’ll do all right, though.  He’s warmhearted and rich, and can surely find another woman to love.

[JoanP]

Earlier, you suggested Mrs. Gaskell may be writing a novel of manners, Lucy.  At the halfway point, I am inclined to agree. The humor- as in the examples PatH just described, keeps me from anticipating "high tragedy" - with pain and suffering (even death) the result.  There is a lot of illness, yes, but there are no wonder drugs, no penicillin - or serotonin at this time. Dr. Gibson seems quite competent - observant, cautious and wise.  Is Mrs. Gaskell using this character to convey her views?

 I'm just enjoying the story, as Mrs. Gaskell chooses to reveal it in - in installments, confident that she will provide surprises - couched in her dry humor, in each one - with no real disaster on the horizon.

[JoanP]

"Why is it so important to Cynthia to keep her engagement secret?"
 
It appears that the more people know, the news of the engagement will reach the person...or persons she does not want to know about it.  Can't decide if this is because she fears Mr. Preston's discovery...or if she cares for someone else, though Mrs. Driscoll goes out of her way to indicate that Cynthia is unable to care for anyone.  (How can we refer to this poor girl as a "survivor"? if there is a tragic figure here, I think it will be Cynthia - unless Mrs. Driscoll decides to redeem her at the end.)
She really doesn't see herself marrying Roger, does she?  How quickly will these two years go by?

Bellamarie, I'm unable to find the conversation in which Cynthia asks Molly about her interest in marrying Mr. Preston. You'd think I'd remember that! Can you point me to it?