Author Topic: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online  (Read 94100 times)

JoanK

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Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #320 on: August 24, 2009, 03:08:37 PM »



The Woman Behind the New Deal:
     The Life of Frances Perkins,
          FDR'S Secretary of Labor and His Moral Conscience

               by Kirstin  Downey


Links:
Frances Perkins Center
Frances Perkins, Dept. of Labor
Jane Addams
[Frances Perkins Speech

Discussion
August   l -  8    
August  9 - 15  
August 16 - 22    
August 23 - 31

Schedule
Chapters 1-9
Chapters 10-18
Chapters 19-27
Chapters 28-38


FOR CONSIDERATION


As fear rose of war, suspicions of immigrants appeared and the Immigration Service was transferred from FP’s Labor Dept. to the Justice Department.  Today it is under Homeland Security and there is still suspicion of immigrants.  What should be done to alleviate fear of illegal or legal immigrants?

FPerkins and FDRoosevelt had a very unusual relationship that was beneficial to both.  What accounted for it?  

“She did not want to admit that she thought FDR might have played a ’false role’ that day, that he had prior knowledge of the situation in Hawaii.”(pg.322)  Has this ever been proven to your knowledge?  What do you think?  

What do you think is meant by a “good war?”

It is unbelievable that a large-scale attack by an enemy of the USA could occur today.  Why?

Is war a male preserve?  

Roosevelt promoted conflict between people and agencies.  “A little rivaly is stimulating, you know.  It keeps everybody going to prove that he is a better fellow than the next man.  It keeps them honest too.” - (pg.360 The Roosevelt I Knew)  Is this a good way to govern?  Or to lead?

Truman came in the back door, so to speak.  How did it happen?

FP disclosed her anti-Catholism when she spoke against Jimmy Byrnes (pg.335).  Was there a lot of prejudice against Catholics in the US and why?

Who should have the power to decide if a president is ill and cannot perform the duties of the office?  Should FDR have been allowed to go to the Yalta Conference?  Why not send VP Truman in his place?

Could FDR’s “dream” of going to Saudi Arabia, after the war, might have been due to the fact that there was oil there?  (pg.340)  He must have known how precious that resource was to the world.

“Truman wold not have been Frances’ choice for president.” (341)  Was she snobbish?

“his (Truman) only Washington experience was as a one-term senator.”  We’ve had two presidents since then with this profile.  Could it be that no experience in Washington is an asset?

“Truman faced a daunting task.  FDR thought him so insignificant that he never bothered to share the details about the war or foreign affairs with him” (pg.346)  The presidency of the USA is one of great power and we should never allow this situation to happen again.  How can it be prevented?


Discussion Leaders:   Ella and Harold



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


JEAN: that information on women in the auto strike was fascinating. I had no idea.

And you're absolutely right about the media. I participated in a content analysis of women's magazines from 1930 through the 70s. We were looking at something else, but you couldn't miss the change. Not only did the role of women change, the intellegence level dropped: the stories were "dumbed down".

JoanK

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Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #321 on: August 24, 2009, 03:15:28 PM »
I'm fascinated by the way FDR is portrayed. He comes across as someone who had no strong convictions of his own, but is swayed by the first person who talks to him. This seems to be the way FP saw him.

I'm inclined to think the strong relationship between FDR and FP was due to her social skill. She seems to have seen him as he was, and used that, as best she could, to acheive what she thought was important.

This sounds cold and manipulative but I don't mean it to. She seems to have had a wide ability to accept people as who they were, with all their warts and pimples, and to relate to them on that level. I admire that.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #322 on: August 24, 2009, 05:41:27 PM »
Regarding women in the workforce today and, particularly, women in positions of authority in the government, Dee Dee Myers, press secretary to President Bill Clinton, just published a book called WHY WOMEN SHOULD RULE THE WORLD and she writes that although she had a position of responsibility, she did not have the authority.  She was not given that authority and, consequently, did not last long in the job; however, she had nothing but praise for Clinton.  He needed women in his White House and she had worked hard for him and was given the job which was due her; however, her pay was less than those in like positions of equal status.
When she complained of this fact, she was told there was no money in the budget and when she told her boss of a fellow who was making more but had less responsibility, her boss said - BUT HE HAS A FAMILY TO SUPPORT.

As you said, JEAN, things do not change!

JOANK:  I'm not sure that I agree altogether with the assesment of FDR in your post.  Frances wrote a book about him after he died; she admired him tremendously stating over and over that he was a very complex man.  Phrases such as "deep philosophy, humility of spirit, completely warmhearted, truly great man" are throughout the book.  "He never displayed the slightest bitterness over his misfortune," she says.




Ella Gibbons

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Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #323 on: August 24, 2009, 05:53:08 PM »
Frances Perkins, in her book on FDR, tells many stories of her relationship with FDR, but he gave her very good advice when he appointed her Industrial Commissioner of the State of New York when he was Governor.

How to handle politically minded people:  "Always ask their advice, whether you take it or not."

He told her to go ahead with her legislative programs, but he said "Keep me posted so I won't make mistakes when I don't know exactly what is going on."  He encouraged her, he was a mentor.

"There was a bond beween Roosevelt and the ordinary men and women of this country-and beyond that, between him and the ordinary men and women of the world.  He was profoundly loyal to them."

All these qualities are strange for a man who had been born to wealth, had a fine education and when young and robust was handsome, polished and charming.  I wish you could see the pictures in this book; one of him hunting in a field, one with Al Smith; the others after the polio.

JeanClark

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Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #324 on: August 24, 2009, 08:04:32 PM »
I have just finished the book, a lot to digest. FDR was very fortunate to have her on his side. She probably wouldn't havebeen elected if she had run for public office. It seems a shame that she had to struggle with money problems all of her life after working so hard and giving so much of herself, good thing that she has some generous friends that recognized her worth.It is sad that she wasn't given the respect and acknowledge that she deserved. So much for trying to enter a men's world, too bad that they were uncomfortable with her at meetings, couldn't swear and brag about their conquests. I lived in the greater Washington area for a number of years and was appallled at some of the things that went on,lost a lot of respect for the government functionaries.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #325 on: August 25, 2009, 08:45:58 AM »
WWII. Were you born?  Were you in school?  Did you learn about the war in school, in college?  What do you know?  Are you interested?  Here are a couple of questions from the book:

“Perkins did not want to admit that she thought FDR might have played a ’false role’ that day, that he had prior knowledge of the situation in Hawaii.”(pg.322)  Has this ever been proven to your knowledge?  What do you think?  

What do you think is meant by a “good war?

JEANCLARK:  Tell us a story about your life in Washington and why you lost respect for those in government?  As Don Hewitt, of 60 Minutes fame, said TELL A STORY!

HaroldArnold

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Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #326 on: August 25, 2009, 09:49:07 AM »
I had heard of Frances as Secretary of Labor.  She was firmly in my mind in that post but I certainly did not realize the extent of the influence she had exerted out side of her Labor Dept.  As noted previously in the 1930's Presidents relied much more than they do today on their Cabinet ministers as a group of advisers in the formulation of many major policy decisions.  Even so I suppose we must conclude that Frances's favored position as an adviser to FDR was unusual.  I dont think the country generally realized it..  In any case the prominence of her role came as a surprise to me.  

ANNIE

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Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #327 on: August 25, 2009, 10:56:18 AM »
Ella,
Your mention of Don Hewitt's book, "Tell Me A Story", reminds me that I wanted to ask you if you think that book would make a good discussion.
Back to FP and FDR,  I think he recognized her early on in NY when she was basically working for the voters in NY.  She put forth her ideas in such a way, that interested FDR and brought forth his enthusiasm.  She was so good at presenting her ideas to him.
I think we have heard the story of FDR's already knowing about what was going to happen in Hawaii so many times, we just take it for granted that its true. But here's a link that you might like to read:
http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=408
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

maryboree

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Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #328 on: August 25, 2009, 11:16:59 AM »
Not having read this with you, I find it interesting to read each of your thoughts on Frances Perkins' role in government.  Harold says "in any case the prominence of her role came as a surprise to me."  I imagine that it would because her name to most wasn't even recognizable throughout the years, except perhaps to those who have studied our history during those years. What I'm learning  is that no matter how smart/intelligent women are, women hardly make a dent in getting credit for their accomplishments in government roles.  I, for one, would love to see a woman president-- and SOON.  It just baffles me that in other countries of the world women have become leaders of their domain, going back to Cleopatra in B.C., and yet today in America we look upon women as not equal in that position. Sometimes I have to laugh of the stupidity of it all but it really isn't funny.  


bellamarie

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Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #329 on: August 25, 2009, 11:24:28 AM »
Ella,
Quote
There are some questions in the heading and the first one is about immigration. There were big problems during the 30's and 40's.  Are there problems with it today?  What are they?  What can be done?  Does your attitude change depending on the section of the country you live in?

Well according to some government officials they try to minimize the problems we have with illegal immigrants.  It seems they are aware of the fact we have millions here and don't really know what to do about it.  In the new purposed health reform bill it is believed to have some sort of coverage for illegals.

An interesting story I have for you.  I was talking with my sister yesterday and she told me how her son who is 37 yrs old and belongs to the Local 8 electricians union is fit to be tied.  He was laid off last year, one of many times in the past years.  He filed for his unemployment and was denied.  They informed him when they processed his claim, it showed he was currently working under his social security number.  He told them NO WAY was he employed.  As they did an extension search they found out an illegal alien had stolen his social security number and was using it employed in another state.  They supposedly cleared this up and he was able to get his unemployment.  He returned back to work a few months later.  Just last week he got laid off again.  He filed for his unemployment and once again he was denied.  Same woman was still using his social security number still working at a McDonalds in another state.  He was furious!  He has actually spoken to a person in the FBI and has been told there has been no harm done here so they have no reason to prosecute this woman.  He is furious!  They told him this is not an isolated case it is a common problem they have been finding.  He said the government is aware its a massive problem and refuses to do anything about it.

He is continuing this battle to get his unemployment check along with stopping this woman from using his social security number.  I told my sister to tell him to WRITE letters to all  his state representatives, the attorney general and contact the news stations and news papers to reveal what it happening. 

Yes, at one point in life all of our ancestors were immigrants.  They came to America to begin a better life and now we have generations after generations.  We are the melting pot of the world.  My Italian grandparents immigrated here and I am Italian, Indian and Irish.  My husband is German, Irish and Scottish.  So, I have NO issues of immigration.  I have issues with illegal immigrants.  We have laws so all citizens are protected and treated equal.  The law is, you come and apply for U.S. citizenship.  Why has the government allowed this to get so out of control?  They are putting our country at risk and now U.S. citizens are having their identity stolen by illegal immigrants.

I just wonder how Frances Perkins would have dealt with this issue back then?

I live in Ohio, so I must say I probably have not personally experienced the effects as states like Texas, California, Florida etc. the states where there are the larger problems and population of illegal or legalized immigrants.  I have no problem what so ever of any human being living in the United States, so long as they are legal and abide by our Constitution and laws.  Maybe my attitude would be different if I lived in the states that seem to be more effected.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #330 on: August 25, 2009, 11:43:55 AM »
maryboree,
    Quote
    What I'm learning  is that no matter how smart/intelligent women are, women hardly make a dent in getting credit for their accomplishments in government roles.  I, for one, would love to see a woman president-- and SOON.  It just baffles me that in other countries of the world women have become leaders of their domain, going back to Cleopatra in B.C., and yet today in America we look upon women as not equal in that position. Sometimes I have to laugh of the stupidity of it all but it really isn't funny.




    I agree with all you said.  It is and always will be a "man's world" in Washington.  Someone as intelligent and as experienced as Hillary Clinton got forced out of her campaign by the DNC's underhandedness.  She was mocked and ridiculed endlessly by the media and Barrack Obama.  When he laughed about her mentioning she went hunting as a child with her father, calling her "Annie Oakley" that was a perfect example of how women are treated when and if they become a threat of gaining any level of status or positions of power in this country.  Seems the perfect place and title for her is "Secretary".  Women like Dee Dee Myers who worked under Bill Clinton, did not give any support to Hillary.  She and her husband wrote an article that bashed Hillary.  I remember watching Dee Dee on an interview and it was deplorable.  So for her to write a book "WHY WOMEN SHOULD RULE THE WORLD" is a bit hypocritical IMO.

    Until we can put party differences aside, and women are willing to support other women, we will never see a woman President.  I agree, Maryboree, it is NOT funny at all.  We hardly heard of Frances Perkins and what she did to bring about the success of FDR's years in office.  He was for her when it worked for him.  He was silent when he decided to let her go it alone and hang in the wind.  A fair weather friend I would call his relationship with Frances.  As the saying goes, "Behind every success man, is a woman."  He got all the recognition, she got his praise.[/list]
    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden

    HaroldArnold

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    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #331 on: August 25, 2009, 12:27:10 PM »
    Regarding today's remembrance of Frances Perkins, I think a bit more than half of the 70 -90+ age group living here at Chandler remembered Frances at least as being involved in the Roosevelt Administration.  Most of these remembered that she had been Secretary of Labor.  I don't think any, my self included, remembered any detail about her service or what she had don prior to 1933. Most of the young people under 40 had no idea who she was.

    I'm trying to put together National Income Statistics probable Gross Domestic Product for the years 1925 through 1950 so we might judge the results to the programs employed to counter the depression.

    Bellamarie, I sort of liked Hillery last year.  She came out initially as a potent candidate.  Unfortunately Obama a late arrival came out with a better campaign  that somehow caught the favor of the people.  I don't think it was a male-female question at all.  The candidate that presented the better campaign won.   I think Hillery centered too much on her initial front runner position until suddenly she wasn't in first place any more.


    mabel1015j

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    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #332 on: August 25, 2009, 01:29:22 PM »
    I was born in 1941, so i didn't remember FP at the time and i don't remember when i first heard about her, but i did know that she was the first woman cabinet member probably in my teens when i knew what THE "cabinet" was.  :) Of course, my parents were huge FDR fans, so it may have come from their discussions.

    Harold - you talked about the Supreme Crt packing issue. I had always tho't that that was a huge issue and that the Court that been a huge obstacle to FDR, but Downey's story seemed to me to say that it was a minor hindrance, at first, and then he got to appoint his people.

    Question to Kristin Downey - do you know if FP got the same salary as a Cabinet member as the men?  

    I don't know how she survived financially paying for hospitalization for both her husband and her dgt. Altho, i guess the costs were not as horrendous as they would be today. My parents never had any health insurance, but going to the doc didn't cost them a day's pay. They were able to take advantage of Medicare at the end of their lives when they had the most severe illnesses.

    I agree w/ Harold about the wisdom of the campaigns of Clinton and Obama. I also agree that Clinton got some bad press as a woman. The contemporary women's movement started in the 70's and there has been quite alot  written about the treatment of women in the press. I would have tho't that newswriters and editors (altho i'm not sure there are editors anymore when i read the grammatical mistakes that are in the papers and magazines) would be eduacated to stop talking about how attractive some woman is, or what she's wearing, or other "feminine" stereotypes. We do see women in positions of authority - and yes, they often have the responsibility, but not the authority - but it is true that some women have bought into the "appearance" stereotype, or bashing other women, etc. But no group is a monolith - e.g. Sarah Palin/Hillary Clinton - and we shouldn't expect them to be. It is distressing to see women not supporting women, or worse, being verbally against each other, but i could not support Sarah Palin for any national position. I was impressed w/ how respectfully  she spoke about Hillary Clinton during the campaign, but other than that, i don't have anything that i could positively about her beyond that.
    Your posts are all wonderful. I completely agree w/ Ella on the immigration issue. We're all descended from immigrants - many see to forget that, or have a lot of myths about how their ancestors assimilated quickly and became "American" immediately upon stepping onto the dock of the the U.S. That never happend. EAch nationality has had it's clubs, had churches in which their first language was spoken, had newspapers and magazines in their first language, etc. It's almost always the second generation who assimilate and learn the language and culture. But they still are proud of their culture of origin, as they should be.
    Being legal is the issue, as Ella said.
    It's interesting how acute FP was in her assessment of Nazi Germany and France and how she was ignored when she tried to relay her opinion to the powers that be. Downey doesn't relate whether any of them acknowledged to  her "you were right."
    She gets more and more impressive to me as i read more of the book
    Bellamarie, what a terrible position your relative is in. I don't get why the justice system isn't interested in her crime.
    We have Eleanor R to thank for FDR having some understanding of what was happening w/ the common person in society. FDR said she was his eyes and ears, since he could not so easily move around the country. I think she was also his conscience in many cases, pushing him to think about what was happening for Blacks and women and Jews, etc. ...........jean

    mabel1015j

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    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #333 on: August 25, 2009, 01:46:44 PM »
    Arianna Huffington says Obama needs to learn FDR's tactics

    Click on her column on the left-hand side w/ the Obama headline.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/

    Ella Gibbons

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    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #334 on: August 25, 2009, 02:44:23 PM »
    The Woman Behindthe New Deal: The Life of Frances Perkins, FDR's Secretary of Labor and HIS MORAL CONSCIENCE.

    How so?

    Ella Gibbons

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    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #335 on: August 25, 2009, 02:46:40 PM »
    "Look at the way FDR handled the fight over Social Security. Despite stiff opposition from within his own party, he vowed to veto any legislation that undermined Social Security's core principles. Speaking of the entrenched interests arrayed against him, FDR said, "They are unanimous in their hate for me -- and I welcome their hatred."  - from Huffington's column

    Good hatred?  Is there such a thing!

    Jonathan

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    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #336 on: August 25, 2009, 03:10:46 PM »
    Like Joan, I feel I've been treated to a new perspective on FDR, thanks to Frances Perkins. Her book The Roosevelt I knew sounds like a eulogy on the recently dead president, so her comments on his character and mind in the book we're reading must come from the later oral history FP left behind. His decision making seems almost laughable as she describes it, almost disparaging. Perhaps even sexist, when she exclaims after one of FDR's decisions: THAT MAN! THAT MAN! Of cours FDR's political antennae, unlike hers, were always out.

    I like the scene that FP describes of a meeting of the cabinet members called together to consider the German invasion of her neighbors.

    Page 292. 'All the Cabinet officers convened at the White House. Many of the men were angry, uttering oaths and blasphemies about the perfidy of the Germans - a STARTLING CHANGE FROM THE GENTLEMANLY WAY THEY USUALLY SPOKE IN HER PRESENCE.' Frances recalled.'


    Jonathan

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    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #337 on: August 25, 2009, 03:18:29 PM »
    I don't know what lessons Obama could derive from the style and policies of his predecessor. It helps to have talent and brains in your cabinet. The rest seems up to the gods.

    mabel1015j

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    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #338 on: August 25, 2009, 03:36:48 PM »
    I think FDR is contiuously interesting, no matter what i learn about him - so complex that you can use amost any adjective about him, and be right at some point in his life. I think FP and ER were not his total moral conscience, as tho he had none of his own, but when he got too concerned w/ only the politics, they tended to say "what about the people involved under this policy?" That's the role of advisors no matter what their specialty - finance, law, commerce, environment, social issues - to bring their concern to the issue. FP brought the laboring person "into" the White House; ER brought the people she was learning about - the miners, the homeless, the Blacks, the women and then the soldiers in conbat.

    Wouldn't you have loved to have known all three of these people? I would!.............and i am grateful to Kristen Downey and SL, and Ella and Harold for bringing FP to my consciousness in such great detail. I'm going to lead book discussions on some presidential couples, in the Spring, at our library. I will definitely recommend this book when we are talking about FDR and ER...........................
    Just read your last post Jonathan. The writer was implying that Obama needs to mke some hard decisions and stand by them, as she thinks FDR did - maybe she needs to read more about him.  :P    She thinks Obama is not being the leader that he needs to be, that he's floating too much about what needs to be done about health care...................................The Bush admin'n was very good about having a message and everybody voicing the message, and it worked, at least in the short run. Obama seems not to know which message he wants to send on sev'l issues...........................you're right about the gods, and their seem to be so many of them in todays world..... :) ............jean

    Ella Gibbons

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    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #339 on: August 25, 2009, 06:28:27 PM »
    "I think FP and ER were not his total moral conscience, as tho he had none of his own, but when he got too concerned w/ only the politics, they tended to say "what about the people involved under this policy?" That's the role of advisors no matter what their specialty - finance, law, commerce, environment, social issues - to bring their concern to the issue." - JEAN

    That's a great post, Jean, thank you!

    HI JONATHAN!  Is it too soon to judge Obama?  Perhaps he needs a British mentor, a counterpart?  A Churchill, perhaps?  The British are still over there in Afghanistan aren't they? 

    FP thought that the two (FDR and Churchill would be stronger than either would be alone).   Would either leader go down in history without the advent of WWII?  We will never know and that is what makes history so fascinating.

    bellamarie

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    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #340 on: August 25, 2009, 06:39:34 PM »
    HaroldArnold,
    Quote
    Bellamarie, I sort of liked Hillery last year.  She came out initially as a potent candidate.  Unfortunately Obama a late arrival came out with a better campaign  that somehow caught the favor of the people.  I don't think it was a male-female question at all.  The candidate that presented the better campaign won.   I think Hillery centered too much on her initial front runner position until suddenly she wasn't in first place any more.

    With all due respect, I don't think it had anything whatsoever to do with who had the better campaign.  The DNC did some very underhanded things to place Obama as the front runner and then Obama had the media to pull him along.  It wasn't a coincidence, the media, newspapers and even magazines were in love with Obama.  Now look at how they are pulling away from him as the his favorable and job performance polls are dropping and his policies are being challenged.  They have lost their ratings, and subscriptions for being so slanted.  It was for sure a a male vs female position and it will continue to be until women stand together instead of attacking each other.  We only help the men keep us in a lower level by doing so.  IMO.  Hillary like Frances Perkins would have made a fine President, instead they took the spot beside/behind the man. 
    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden

    bellamarie

    • Posts: 4109
    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #341 on: August 25, 2009, 06:46:44 PM »
    Jean,
    Quote
    Arianna Huffington says Obama needs to learn FDR's tactics

    It's probably one of the first intelligent things I have heard from Arianna.  lol  Just kidding.  But I do agree with her.  Obama is not tough like FDR.  He is not experienced and does not like confrontation.  He takes corrective criticism as a personal attack, and then stiffens his shouders and atttacks back with his oh so cute smile.  Its not working anymore.  Now he has to prove to his supporters he was the right choice because now more than ever we could use a President like FDR.  Or... I would even be happy to have a Frances Perkins whispering in Obama's ear.  lolol
    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden

    Ella Gibbons

    • Posts: 2904
    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #342 on: August 25, 2009, 07:55:32 PM »
    Well, BELLEMARIE, if Hillary was as good as FP in her role in government, she would be whispering in Obama's ear.

    Aren't we being too quick to judge Obama?  He hasn't been in there very long and he had a heck of a lot on his plate when he took office, some very unexpected problems like the economy.  Now we are hearing good reports that we may be out of the worst of the recession.  The Dow Jones has gone up 1500 points from when he took office.  

    Yeah, he smiles.  You don't think he can be tough??  I don't think anyone can get to the top of the political field without being tough.

    Tomorrow night at 7 pm on MSNBC there is going to be a program on the Kennedy Brothers.  One of them, a young president - the youngest yet I believe - who had very little experience,  also,  is going down in history as one of most beloved.

    ANNIE

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    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #343 on: August 26, 2009, 06:38:15 AM »
    IMHO, what has happened to our political scene is not particularly admirable.  It has become more of an American Idol scene starting with the Kennedy administration.  And part of that result started with the father, Joe Kennedy, and his affair with Hollywood actress, Gloria Swanson.  Then John and Robert carried that forth with Marilyn Monroe.  Very star struck, the Kennedy men.
    "No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

    ANNIE

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    • Posts: 2977
    • Downtown Gahanna
      • SeniorLearn
    "No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

    Ella Gibbons

    • Posts: 2904
    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #345 on: August 26, 2009, 11:02:52 AM »
    No, ANN, I've never heard of that author, but that stuff about the Kennedy clan, father and son, is all old news as far as I am concerned.  

    As is reading about WWII!  For those of you who know the history of the war, its battles, their conclusions, its leaders, did you learn anything new about it?

    Anything new about Roosevelt?  What about Frances Perkins?  It must have been very difficult for her to be put on the back burner in those years of war:

    "Pearl Harbor marked an important life transition for Frances in several other important ways.....Roosevelt's call to arms forced the New Deal into the background.  Winning the war.....a male preserve......less room for a woman.....he pointedly excluded Frances.....pushed from the inner circle."

    Roosevelt stripped offices from her as he had done with the immigraation service, moving agencies from one place to another." (pg.324)

    Frances was entering her sixth decade of life.  Today she would be thinking Social Security, wouldn't she?  Medicare?

    Weren't you?

    Roosevelt was obviously very, very ill before he went to the Yalta Conference.  Why couldn't someone else go?  Could not the State Dept. have briefed a diplomat, a VP, or Secretary or State, to take his place?

    MUST OUR GOVERNMENT DEPEND ON ONE INDIVIDUAL IN TIMES OF CRISIS TO SPEAK FOR ALL OF US, TO MAKE DECISIONS THAT WILL AFFECT THE NATION FOR DECADES?

    Who can tell a president he cannot do something because he is too ill to serve?


    Ella Gibbons

    • Posts: 2904
    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #346 on: August 26, 2009, 11:12:26 AM »
    Section I of Article II: "In Case of the Removal of the President from Office, or of his Death, Resignation, or Inability to discharge the Powers and Duties of the said Office, the same shall devolve on the Vice President, and the Congress may by Law provide for the Case of Removal, Death, Resignation or Inability, both of the President and Vice President, declaring what Officer shall then act as President, and such Officer shall act accordingly, until the Disability be removed, or a President shall be elected.

    That is what our Constitution says.  The Congress has the authority.  "inability to discharge the powers and duties of said office."

    I can't ever imagine Congress exercising that authority, can you?

    By the time they appointed a committee and they studied the issue for several months, the President would no doubt be dead.

    Jonathan

    • Posts: 1697
    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #347 on: August 26, 2009, 12:17:55 PM »
    Was it a sorry end to her career?

    Page 349. 'I had a program in mind....The program is almost accomplished. Everything except health insurance, that I had on my original list and some things we have been able to do because the climate was right for social change.'

    The coming of the war changed everything. The Woman Behind the New Deal became irrelevant, and even a political liability. The New Deal issues are put on the back burner. FP's Labor Department shrivels from 7301 to 3696. Her authority erodes. Frances loses her verve, becomes dispirited, seeks solace and strength in religion, and a bit of oblivion in the bottle...thinks of herself as an 'unappreciated mother', politically speaking. (Did she try a wrong approach, a wrong image?)

    Page 327-8. 'She did not air her grievances publicly, but she raged about them in private. Her notes documented her silent fury.'

    Was her legacy of reforms a lasting one? I seemed to remember some attempt to change the welfare aspect of some of them in the Clinton administration. I've just checked the references to it  in his own book, MY LIFE. What caught my attention was Clinton's references to health coverage:

    'I told the Congress I knew it was hard to change the system. Roosevelt, Truman, Nixon, and Carter had all tried and failed. The effort virtually destroyed Truman's presidency....This happened because, for all our problems, most Americans had some kind of coverage, liked their doctors and hospitals, and knew we had a good system of health-care delivery. All those things were still true. Those who profited from the way health care was financed were spending huge sums to convince the Congress and the people that fixing what was wrong with the health-care system would destroy what it did right.' page577

    Right for some. The rest...well, I think of the conversation at a dinner table in a wilderness camp in the Adirondacks years ago...about health costs in the U.S. A professional health care person remarked that some people were going to Animal Clinics for something like an immunity vaccine.  For forty bucks instead of the four hundred charged by their doctor.  Unbelievable?

    I HAD A PROGRAM IN MIND.  Wouldn't that have made a good alternative title for Kirstin's book?

    bellamarie

    • Posts: 4109
    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #348 on: August 26, 2009, 03:44:28 PM »
    Ella, 
    Quote
    if Hillary was as good as FP in her role in government, she would be whispering in Obama's ear.

    I think Hillary as Secretary of State is whispering in Obama's ear and he in hers. Hillary, is just as important as Frances was to FDR, its just in a different position and capacity.  Hillary is knowledged in foreign affairs and Frances social affairs. And let us not forget she was beside Bill Clinton in his eight years as President giving much advice and working on health care reform.  Obama, must have trust and faith in Hillary, to appoint her to such a position, just as FDR had in Frances.  Obama acknowledged Hillary's status, intelligence, and accomplishments when he praised her on the day she stepped down and the day he appointed her Secretary of State. 

    Ella with all due respect your statement about Hillary strengthens my point, that women will never acheive the respect or position as President until women begin to support them and join with them, especially when they are more or at least as qualified as a man.

    Quote
    Now we are hearing good reports that we may be out of the worst of the recession.
     

    What the COB, and other unbiased experts refer to this slight incline is...  Double dipping, we will go a slight bit up, only to find the economy taking another dive down with inflation to follow.  The prediction is this will last another two years at the least.  Yes, Obama had a lot on his plate, but his enormous spending and failed programs so far has only made things worse.  He had no more or no less than FDR did when he took office. The figures we are seeing coming out gives me pause, and I wonder if its like when Frances Perkins exposed Hoover for fudging the figures to give the people false hope. People are still losing their jobs, the Post Office just announced they are going to give $15,000 cash incentives to 30,000 workers in the distribution centers to get them to retire or leave.  They are closing Post Offices and have put a halt to constructing new ones. 

    Quote
    You don't think he can be tough??  I don't think anyone can get to the top of the political field without being tough.

    No, as far as what he has shown, I don't think he can be tough.  I disagree you have to be tough to get to the top of the political field.  I belive you have to know and have the support of the right people.  Many presidents have been weak.  Our allies and enemies have tested him and he has not faired well, to date. Russia, Georgia, North Korea, Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc.   

    I liked JKF and Robert, but as far as Ted Kennedy I could never get over his Chapiquidick scandal. I appreciate he gave 50 yrs of service.  I thought it interesting how when Kerry was running for President, Ted  pushed to change the rules so Kerry's seat could not be taken by a Republican.  Just last week, the democrats knowing Ted was close to death, sent a letter via Ted Kennedy trying to change the rules yet again in the event of his death, so once again a Republican could not get the seat. Pretty sad in his last days of his life the DNC tried to underhandedly control the  soon to be vacancy. I found it interesting how Frances Perkins said she was not really interested in one party, what she cared the most about was whoever would support her causes and would do right by the American people.  I totally agree with her thinking.



    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden

    bellamarie

    • Posts: 4109
    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #349 on: August 26, 2009, 04:14:16 PM »
    ADOANNIE,
    Quote
    IMHO, what has happened to our political scene is not particularly admirable.  It has become more of an American Idol scene starting with the Kennedy administration.  And part of that result started with the father, Joe Kennedy, and his affair with Hollywood actress, Gloria Swanson.  Then John and Robert carried that forth with Marilyn Monroe.  Very star struck, the Kennedy men.

    I completely agree with this.  America has become star struck, they want a celebrity figure as their President.  Some don't mind they are not qualified, as long as Hollywood can rap and sing, walk the red carpet and wine and dine with them.  Its about gliz and glamour.  The Kennedys did in fact begin this trend.  Jackie became the fashion statement for all women.  JFK and his affairs, mafia connections and hollywood parties in the white house were the beginning.  I have read many books on the Kennedy's and their lives as far back as Ireland, and Joe was damned and determined to be ambassador and get one of his sons elected President.  He didn't care who he had to step on to make it happen or what laws he had to break.

    They called those the "Camelot" years.  I was young and impressionable and adored the Kennedy family.  I do respect what they have all contributed to government service and other social issues.  But.. I won't glorify, celebritize nor canonize any of them. 

    Ella, You may say it is old news, but Ted Kennedy and the DNC trying to once again change the law so they could hurry and control the vacancy is just an example of how they acheived their status back years ago and still doing it today, just like they did throughout the Kennedys entering politics. 

    May Ted and Eunice rest in peace with their family members who went before them. 
    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden

    Ella Gibbons

    • Posts: 2904
    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #350 on: August 26, 2009, 06:06:10 PM »
    Good post, JONATHAN!  You've read Clinton's book?  I haven't done that yet, it's a hefty one isn't it?  Good quote about health care and I think he is right all the way; that paragraph sums it up very well.  Last night one statistician (and they are coming out of the woodwork everywhere) gave the total of what we spend in the USA for one person's health care in one year and what Sweden (I think it was, but it could have been England, Canada, Switzerland, Germany - they all do better than we do) spends.  We spend 2/3rds more.  We don't read of people dropping over dead from lack of care in any of those countries, people in line trying to get surgery.  I haven't read of any!

    Thanks, BELLEMARIE, for your thoughts on the political scene.  Gosh, we could talk forever about politics and the rights/wrongs of it all (and maybe we could, can you think of a good book to base the discussion on?).  Free speech, isn't it grand, we just all argue and pound and get irritable, but it's for love of country.

    We have just lost the last Kennedy brother.  Decades of the Kennedys; one wonders about the tragedies of it all.  

    Wouldn't Frances have had some health insurance as an employee of the Federal Government?  Anyone know?  And wouldn't Paul, and possibly, Susan, have been able to be included on it?  She seems so burdened financially by their care.

    Has anyone here read ALICE, a biography of Alice Longworth Roosevelt, by Cordery?  I recognize a few of the people FP knew from that book; all Washingtonians during that period.  For example. Senator Borah was Alice's secret lover for years and years!  Both of them married! And she never liked Eleanor either!  Detested her.  Made fun of her and they were cousins!  But she could be very cruel.  She came from the Oyster Bay Roosevelts and they were superiors, AHA!

    Whoops, dinner time.

    JoanP

    • BooksDL
    • Posts: 10394
    • Arlington, VA
    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #351 on: August 26, 2009, 06:51:51 PM »
    Kristin, I've been away visiting the grandchildren and have just learned that you will be speaking at the National Book Festival in DC.  Let's try to get together before or after your talk.  Several of us plan to be there - most likely on Sept. 25.  We are looking forward to seeing you there.

      Members of this book club have been attending the Festival since its beginnings - I think it was the year 2000.  Here we were with David McCullough - weren't we so young!  There's another good one with Wally Lamb at the festival around here somewhere.  Will try to find it!

    SeniorLearn is a member of the Library of Congress' Center for the Book, which sponsors the Festival.  We're
    "Reading Promotion Partners" of the Center.   Back in the day we had our own tables and our members came from all over the country to talk to people about our on-line site - and books of course.  Then, when the Library of Congress experienced the same budgetary issues the rest of the country faces, our big white tent was eliminated from the Mall.  We still attend and still support our favorite authors - such as yourself, Kirstin~

     

    bellamarie

    • Posts: 4109
    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #352 on: August 26, 2009, 07:08:09 PM »
    Jonathon
    Quote
    I seemed to remember some attempt to change the welfare aspect of some of them in the Clinton administration. I've just checked the references to it  in his own book, MY LIFE. What caught my attention was Clinton's references to health coverage:

    'I told the Congress I knew it was hard to change the system. Roosevelt, Truman, Nixon, and Carter had all tried and failed. The effort virtually destroyed Truman's presidency....This happened because, for all our problems, most Americans had some kind of coverage, liked their doctors and hospitals, and knew we had a good system of health-care delivery. All those things were still true. Those who profited from the way health care was financed were spending huge sums to convince the Congress and the people that fixing what was wrong with the health-care system would destroy what it did right.' page577

    Jonathon I have his book, and found it a good read.  Bill Clinton is a very intelligent man.  The statements he made in this book I fear will be the down fall of each and every President who tries to take health care reform on.  Obama is finding that out now.  The baby boomers and the seniors are standing up and demanding to be heard.  I sense this is only the beginning of an uprising to stop this reform bill.  Fix what is broken, but leave what works alone, is what I am hearing.  No different than what Clinton said.  Americans are generous, they are willing to pay more to help those who can't afford health care, but, they are NOT willing to be bamboozled into something that burdens them, and threatens their care, or life, for the sake of party and policy.  As a Republican stated, "This could be Obama's Waterloo." No different than any predecessor, who attempted to reform health care.

    I felt a bit sad for Frances Perkins when she submitted her resignation and Eisenhower accepted it with barely any recognition of her and what she had done.  In my book it says, "On January 23, 1953, just after Eisenhower's inauguration , Perkins wrote a letter of resignation to him.  She had the letter hand-delivered to the White House but heard nothing in response.  Although she was uncertain about what she would do next, she was determined to "move out with dignity."  On the literal eve of her departure, with her suitcases packed, she finally received "a very polite letter from Mr. Eisenhower saying that he thanked me for my services and so forth and accepted my resignation."

    At the farewell dinner Truman gave, Frances  found it a very disappointing event, which failed to mark in any significant way the conclusion of two decades of government achievement by Roosevelt and his successor.  The gold plate on the tables failed to compensate for what she saw as a lost opportunity to turn the occasion into something truly memorable.  As it was, it was merely a pleasant reunion.  She lamented the fact that "the occasion just dribbled away without recognizing itself as an era which had finished."

    Perkins, whose career had begun in the classroom, spent the last 12 years of her life in academia.  Presumably she had had a change of mind since reporting to her Mount Holyoke classmates in 1909, that she had "thrown a hate" on teaching as a profession."


    Did she have a change of mind?  Did she feel defeated, lost outside of the political world?  I wonder if she truly ever was a happy person.  Resorting to drinking makes me wonder if she lived her last years of life depressed much like her daughter and husband.  I know I admire all she did and how she led the way for women to enter the political world.  If Hillary's campaign is said to have put, "18 Millions cracks in the glass ceiling", imagine how many cracks Frances Perkins would have been said to have made back then.  In FDR's words, "Bully for you!"
    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden

    bellamarie

    • Posts: 4109
    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #353 on: August 26, 2009, 07:14:05 PM »
    Ella,
    Quote
    We have just lost the last Kennedy brother.  Decades of the Kennedys; one wonders about the tragedies of it all. 


    Do not lament, we have plenty of Kennedys to aspire to great political careers if they so wish to.  It rather surprised me how people literally outright protested when Caroline Kennedy tried to enter the political field last year.  I fear this generation has NO clue who or what the Kennedy family means to us baby boomers and seniors.  I guess I can quote Frances Perkins from her farewell dinner, ""the occasion just dribbled away without recognizing itself as an era which had finished."
    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden

    bellamarie

    • Posts: 4109
    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #354 on: August 26, 2009, 07:21:28 PM »
    Ella,
    Quote
    We don't read of people dropping over dead from lack of care in any of those countries, people in line trying to get surgery.  I haven't read of any!

    With all due respect, I must tell you the reports I am hearing are contradictory to your statement.  They have been showing people who have been denied care for their illnesses and have died because of it.  The past president of the AMA in Canada was being interviewed last week and he said that ONE MILLION Canadians are waiting one year to see a specialist and ONE MILLION more are waiting one year for surgeries they need.  He said he would advise the United States to not use them as a model for health care reform.  He has NOTHING to gain one way or the other in providing us with this information. 
    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden

    bellamarie

    • Posts: 4109
    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #355 on: August 26, 2009, 07:25:22 PM »
    Ella, 
    Quote
    Thanks, BELLEMARIE, for your thoughts on the political scene.  Gosh, we could talk forever about politics and the rights/wrongs of it all (and maybe we could, can you think of a good book to base the discussion on?).  Free speech, isn't it grand, we just all argue and pound and get irritable, but it's for love of country.

    Yes indeed, it is because we ALL love our country and are passionate, just like Frances Perkins was.  Thank you for thoughts.  ;)
    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden

    HaroldArnold

    • Posts: 715
    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #356 on: August 26, 2009, 08:22:21 PM »
    On the question of Waiting in line for Health Care provided by Governments.  I frequently listen to the 30 minutes PM question  period sometimes available on Sunday evening evenings on American Cable news.  How often one hears the English PM proudly boasting that his Government has cut the waiting times for necessary cancer treatments down th 3 months.

    HaroldArnold

    • Posts: 715
    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #357 on: August 26, 2009, 08:25:49 PM »
    Regarding the overall success of Roosevelt' leadership as as the Nations President:  Over the first 2 terms, he seems to have solicited advice and often accept advice from Frances, or from other cabinet officer or other advisers. No one person knows everything, and in deciding national policy issues every President must formulate his decision based on the advice of experts.   FDR seems to have generally made good decision through which  several ensuing generations of Americans continue to benefit.
     
    Did Roosevelt’s leadership patterns change in his 3rd term during WWII?  I don’t really think so.  No doubt Military Officers were more often advisers but on domestic issues the President still went to his Cabinet.  But Major War decisions were international decisions that were a consensus of 3 sovereign Chiefs of governments.  From 1941 until 1944 many major war policy decisions seemed consistently good leading toward  final victory.  During this period Allied decision were most often the concurrence of FDR and Churchill with Stalin's general acceptance. But after 1944 as the War was approaching its final phase, FDR seemed increasingly inclined to side with Stalin rather than Churchill leading to the Iron Curtain dividing Germany into east and west components, with all the countries of Eastern Europe subject to Russian Soviet domination.  Of course by 1944 FDR was showing his age weakened by the illness that caused his death early in his 4th term. But decisions made during the late months of the War set the stage for the 45 years of Cold War that followed

    PatH

    • BooksDL
    • Posts: 10933
    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #358 on: August 26, 2009, 08:53:16 PM »
    To my great regret, I was traveling, busy with that, sometimes with limited internet access, and got behind both on the reading and the posts.  Boy, am I sorry.  I've missed being part of a really good, lively discussion.  I'm now caught up, and will feed in as much as still seems appropriate about the past stuff, plus all I can about this week's stuff.

    A small start: I guess I had just barely heard of Perkins, but my daughter definitely knew who she was.  She is a union-side labor lawyer, and will absolutely love this book.  It will fill her in on the background of her profession, and hit home about women in a man's world, and remind her (she has no illusions on this point) of the sleazy power struggles of unions even while they are doing necessary things for the workers.  I was going to give her my copy, but maybe I'd better get Kirstin to sign another one for her.

    bellamarie

    • Posts: 4109
    Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
    « Reply #359 on: August 26, 2009, 11:37:44 PM »
    JoanP, "SeniorLearn is a member of the Library of Congress' Center for the Book, which sponsors the Festival."

    How exciting!  I have had two poems published in Anthologies in the International Library of Poetry, and have been invited to the annual dinner to read my poems in Washington.  I would love to go see Kirstin in Sept.  I will have to look for SeniorLearn members if I am able to attend.  It would be nice to have names under that picture so we could all place a face with your names, some of us have not had the pleasure of being able to join your group outings, to meet you all in person. 
    Kudos for SeniorLearn!
    “What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
    __Anthony Trollope, The Warden