The description of the Elvenking's crown of berries and red leaves reminded me that it is early Autumn, and I thought of Elron's translation of the runes on Thorin's grandfather's map... that light will shine on the little keyhole to the treasure when the last light of Durin's Day will shine on it. I made a note that Durin's Day is first day of the dwarves' new year - which falls on the first day of the last moon of Autumn.
I found this illustration - the king doesn't jive with my mental image of an elf...but then...I don't know what elves look like. I wonder if Tolkien left any drawings of him. My interest centered on the crown of berries and red leaves, which tell us that the end of Autumn is near...
(http://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/thumb/e/e5/Anke_Ei%C3%9Fmann_-_Thranduil.jpg/250px-Anke_Ei%C3%9Fmann_-_Thranduil.jpg)
This is how the king was protrayed in the 1977 film of The Hobbit -
(http://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/thumb/7/77/The_Hobbit_%281977_film%29_-_Thranduil.jpg/180px-The_Hobbit_%281977_film%29_-_Thranduil.jpg)
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
November Book Club Online
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hobbit/hobbitcover.jpg) | The Hobbit turns 75 this fall, an occasion likely to cause many thousands of people to reflect with fondness on their childhood memories of the adventures of Bilbo Baggins.
Though a much loved and widely respected children’s book, this work is too often overlooked by adults who relegate it to the nursery bookshelf. "The Hobbit is a brilliantly constructed story unfolding themes that adult readers will still find compellingly relevant to the modern world: themes such as the nature of evil and the significance of human choice, or the corruptive power of greed and the ease with which good people can be drawn into destructive conflict." Corey Olsen is an Assistant Professor of English at Washington College in Maryland
Bilbo Baggins begins as a cautious and conservative hobbit, well respected and considered a pillar of the hobbit community. When he reluctantly sets out on a quest to recover the stolen treasure of a band of dwarves, he encounters dangers of all descriptions. His adventures, which figure prominently in a prophecy of the dwbarves, are like stepping stones on the inner journey Biblo must take to find his courage. Bilbo faces trials which again and again force him to look deep inside himself for the strength and resourcefulness he needs to complete the task expected of him. |
Discussion Schedule
| Ch 1 - 3 |
Nov 12-16 |
| Ch 4 - 6 |
Nov 17-21 |
| Ch 7 - 8 |
Nov 22-26 |
| Ch 9 - 12 |
Nov 27-Dec 1 |
| Ch 13 - 15 |
Dec 2-5 | Now Discussing |
| Ch 16 - 18 |
Dec 6-9 |
| Ch 19 and overall |
Dec 10-13 |
Questions for Consideration
To notice for the whole book:
Tolkien incorporated many elements of myth, legend, and fairy tale. What ones do you see? Are they effective?
The story takes place in Middle Earth. Is this our world? How is it the same or different?
The Hobbit is a prelude to The Lord of the Rings. If you are familiar with LOTR, notice which elements are present here, and what differences there are.
What different races of creatures do we meet? What is each like?
Chapter 13.
1. The dwarves are despairing, but Bilbo feels "a strange lightening of the heart". What do you think that means? What is the psychology at work in this reaction?
2. What is your opinion of Thorin throwing the responsibility of leadership in Bilbo's lap?
3. Why does Bilbo take the Arkenstone? Why doesn't he tell anyone?
4. What is the effect of gold and jewels on the heart of a dwarf?
Chapter 14.
1. What new heroic leader now emerges? What is your first impression of him?
2. Do you see another 'legendary' weapon making its appearance?
3. Why can Bard understand the thrush?
4. How appropriate is the attack on the town for a child's book? Does Tolkien manage to convey the drama without too much trauma?
5. What flaws does the town's 'Master' reveal? How does he manage to keep his position?
Chapter 15.
1. Dwarves, men and elves each want the treasure. What reason does each give? Are the claims just?
2. What hopeful outcome does the raven express from the confrontation of dwarves and men? What advice to Thorin does he see as critical to that outcome?
3. What is the situation between Thorin and his followers?
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net ); Marcie (marciei@aol.com), Babi (pmg371@aol.com), Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com )
Wow, what a lot of great ideas and comments.
Babi, I agree with your assessment of the Master, Babi. He sure seems like a politician (not in any good sense). Thanks for the link to the lore about ravens and crows. It's interesting that "In some cases these black-feathered birds are considered an omen of bad tidings, but in others they may represent a message from the Divine."
JoanP, the thrush must have some role to play but I guess we have to wait to find out. Bird symbolism is interesting. As you say, Bilbo was the only one with the perserverance to unlock the door. Elrond had shown them some hidden symbols on Thorin's map of the Lonely Mountain. The symbols are only visible at the right phase of the moon. They say that the tiny, secret side door into the Lonely Mountain will only open on Durin's Day, the last day of autumn. It seems that Bilbo has spent the day thinking about it and finally understands the clues in Thorin's map. On Durin's Day, using the key from Thorin's grandfather, Bilbo is able to open the door. LOL re the heavy, slow Bombur. Is he part of the comic relief? and/or part of the suspense...will all the group be able to make it home alive, given their weakest/slowest members?
Joan, that's a good question about effort and/or luck. Some people do not believe in luck. Does it seem to play a big role in this story?
Thanks for looking up the proverb "third time pays for all." Did Bilbo use it for the literal third time he saved the dwarves? What were the previous two events?
Great, Pat. Thanks for those two drawings of the Lonely Mountain. It helps to see those pictures.
I’m bringing this up now because it may take time to get the book. When we started this discussion, we mentioned the possibility of afterward reading Pat Murphy’s There and Back Again. This is a light-hearted Space Opera which closely follows the plot of The Hobbit, only with spaceships and the whole galaxy to journey in. It’s good sci-fi even if you haven’t read the Tolkien, but if you have, it’s really fun to see how clever she is. If anyone’s interested, we could talk about it a bit—not a formal discussion, just a few days chat.
Chat or not, it’s fun to read. It’s out of print, but some libraries have it (mine does) and Amazon has a few cheap used copies
Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=pat+murphy+there+and+back+again&sprefix=pat+mu%2Cstripbooks%2C452/)
and alibris has lots
alibris (http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?wauth=pat+murphy&browse=2&qsort=&narrow=1&wtit=there+and+back+again&wauth=&fiction=&wquery=&binding=&wpub=/)
That strange character on the cover is Gandalf.
I can't help but admit that one of my favorite,most frquently employed and useful quotes from The Hobbit is poor Bilbo's "Thag you very buch". (Sneeze!). Perhaps this is just because I have allergies and sinus problems,who knows?
I'm with you there, Lorac, I have allergies too.
I very much enjoy Tolkien's (albeit rather pointed) foreshadowing,such as "Luckily for him(Bombur) that (he was too heavy for the ropes) was not true,as you shall see."Ch.XI. It's almost gentle sarcasm- Here! Pay attention,dunderhead! Definitely irony,at least. i wonder if he lived in Middle-Earth more than this one?
Tolkien had such an effect on so many,but one author I found simply because he assisted Christopher Tolkien with publishing The Silmarillion is Guy Gavriel Kay. Try him if you haven't. Such lyrical prose!
Kay has been recommended to me before. Which one would you suggest for a start?
I read Kay's Ysabel. I had intended to read more of his books, but forgot about him. Thanks for the reminder.
Lorac, I don't have allergies but I too enjoyed Bilbo's "Thag you very buch". (Sneeze!) It makes him so endearing. I think I will enjoy the film but I rather want Bilbo to remain a "creature" in my mind rather than have an image of a human being. I know he looks like a human in the drawings too but I think of him as sort of rabbit like.
I'm glad you brought up the foreshadowing. [Luckily for him(Bombur) that (he was too heavy for the ropes) was not true, as you shall see.] I like those instances too. I think there have been one or two before that one.
The thrush is a different species than the crows and ravens...and without the
more sinister mythology. Here, he seems to be another 'friendly messenger'.
Doesn't the primary role of birds in fantasy seem to be either predators or
messengers?
I had the same reaction to Bombur as MARCIE, ie.'comic relief' character. He
seems to fit the role. And the same feeling re. Bilbo. I don't want him to look
like a human child. (Did no one consider casting a real midget in this role? We
have some excellent actors among the 'little people'.)
Gandalf? Really, PAT? It looked to me like a red-haired woman!
Good grief! Are we supposed to be finishing with Ch. 12 today? It's got to be the longest
chapter in the book and I've still got so many notes from this one chapter. Forgive me if
I take up too much time.
At last they have found the 'back door' to the dragon's lair. And would you listen to Thorin! He praises 'Mr. Baggins' for his courage, resourcefulness and "good luck far exceeding the usual allowance". Well, I concede there has been extraordinary good luck. But then Thorin goes on to say "Now is the time for him to perform the service for which he was included in our Company; now is the time for him to earn his reward."
I was glad to see Bilbo's reaction was the same as mine. 'Impatient' is what Tolkien called it. I thought it outrageous. As 'Mr. Baggins' says, he had gotten them out of two messes already, which were hardly in the original bargain, so that he had already earned some reward. But he still intends to go on with his original purpose. He is a far different person that the scatter-wit and timid hobbit who started out.
Tolkien finds here another excellent opportunity to make an important point with his young readers. "There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don't expect too much."
I think this understanding would come in most useful as the kids grow up and begin dealing with "men of the world" big business types.
Okay, I'll end with that.
I think of Bilbo as looking pretty human, not like a child, but short and plump. You can do that with a normal sized actor by camera tricks.
Yes, Babi, Gandalf is a red-haired woman with tattoos, and that isn't an eyepatch, it's an enhanced sensor. But she still is a lot like Gandalf. The dwarves are female too. Bilbo is still male.
Chapter 12 is long and full of stuff, and it can spill into tomorrow if we aren't through talking about it.
Babi, I'm glad you quoted that bit about dwarves--decent enough people if you don't expect too much. I like that a lot too.
What did Bilbo mean when he said "third time pays for all"?
I've a note in the annotated copy -
"Third time pays for all" is a medieval proverb, a notable use of which occurs in Sir Gawain and the Green knight."
The annotation says are three appearances of the proverb in The Lord of the Rings" and quotes a letter from Tolkein dated July 31, 1964 on the usage:
"It is an old alliterative saying using the word "time" ...this third occasion is the best time - the time for special effort and/or luck. It is used when a third occurrence may surpass the others and finally prove a man's worth, or a thing's."
When reading Tolkien's words, "the time for special effort and/or luck" I thought again about Bilbo's success - was it due to his special effort - or luck?
This is important. Bilbo does go down the passage to the dragon's lair. What happens when he does so? He reaches a third turning point in his journey. (the first two: 1:his reaction to being left alone in the goblin cave, dealing with Gollum, and finding pity and strength to escape without killing Gollum, and 2: managing to kill the spider all by himself, and then naming his sword, showing that at least unconsciously he accepts that he is part of the heroic tradition).
So: “It was at this point that Bilbo stopped. Going on from there was the bravest thing he ever did. The tremendous things that happened afterwards were as nothing compared to it. He fought the real battle in the tunnel alone, before he ever saw the vast danger that lay in wait.”
Bilbo has jumped another step in bravery and heroism, and is definitely proving his worth.
Luck is an important theme too, better dealt with later.
I have been struggling with the under belly of the story ever since the naming of the sword - Oh I can see how Bilbo, in order to be accepted embarked on activities admired by the Dwarfs and how he seemed to be introspective at the water's edge not participating while Thorin was claiming his ancient rights. It appears that Bilbo takes on searching out the Dragon and the next phase of waging war with the Dragon as his own 'Man' who is only struggling with his spirit, with his Tuck side versus his Baggins side.
However, where I am really personally confused is all this about the sword that seems to be agreeing with the Christian traditional concept of a 'Just War' - Bilbo and his knife/sword Sting reminds me of the Story of Roland where Bishops and priests fight along side soldiers and knights, each wielding their named swords - the Story of Roland highlights the tradition that the Christian God punishes the evil forces in the world. As a result, the sword is thought as an agent of God's will, deemed to punish evil. This tradition is alive and well in many of the romantic stories of knights slaying dragons or saving the life and the virtues of young women. Again, the knight and his sword an agent of Good over Evil.
I have a problem with this view of God who punishes evil, as if the Christian God is some Superman beyond all Supermen but still in the image of a man - how demeaning in my estimation - but since no one has ever seen God we can all have our imaginative concept. But more, who is to judge what is evil enough to warrant the use of arms - this Nation does it as if we are the superior judge of ethical behavior - we have so many quotes that to me represent a more enlightened approach to elevating children's future behavior and advancing a world view of issues having many sides and that the power of arms is not how the winner is chosen.
We have sayings like - 'One man's virtue is another man's sin' - 'One Man's Vices are Another Man's Virtues' - The realization that 'evil can infect people who seem upright', as it did Bilbo for awhile - which can lead to, 'one man's sin often becomes the occasion of another man's greater sin' - these well known quotes highlight for us the various ethical values of cultures around the world - which some would say, Bilbo is having a learning lesson while others would see his behavior as following the evil exemplified by the code of the dwarfs.
That is opening another can of worms... The dwarfs are described as calculating with ideas about the value of money; they are tricky and treacherous. Sounds like how we define a group of people who live their ethical lives differently than ourselves.
I guess it is the idea of a spiritual quest that is built on the successful handling of a weapon - no different than, Billy the Kid - Judge Roy Bean - Kit Carson - who was just? - Who represented the evil force of a Dragon? Had this story been written as a myth rather than as a story for children told in the twentieth century I would not feel so conflicted or maybe, we have come very far in just the last 50 years because we sure did not think WWII was unjust. We only really started to question the concept of a 'Just War' and wielding the power of our so called Judeo/Christian values during the Viet Nam experience. Certainly after Gandhi.
This post may not be pushing us on through Bilbo's adventure but my take on reading for discussion any book is, why read much less discuss if it does not stir interior questions. We can read fluff that entertains without devoting a month to the pearls from an author's pen.
As Pat says, we can see if we finish up Chapter 12 today or continue with this long chapter tomorrow. Thanks, Pat, for bringing up the importance again of Bilbo's heroic acts. He's someone who has stayed near home all his life and has been content with his existence... eating, sleeping, entertaining. However, he does have "Took" ancestry and he has skills that he has practiced such as throwing stones/darts, etc. accurately. Even though he is afraid, he rises to the challenges of this adventure.
LOL, Babi, Tolkien's descriptions often are not overly flattering. I laughed at his dwarf caveat ..."if you don't expect too much."
Barbara, you raise some thought-provoking points. You say "Had this story been written as a myth rather than as a story for children told in the twentieth century..." I do see The Hobbit as a myth. Everything is not to be taken literally. The "hobbit" itself is an imaginary creature. There's a short, interesting article on history of The Hobbit book at http://www.tolkien-online.com/hobbit.html
Hmm Marcie maybe I am expecting too much from Tolkien - although, he is considered such an icon of twentieth century storytelling that underscores Christian religious views.
I added the link to the article in my post, Barbara. It might respond to your question about how seriously to take the book when it says:
"Those of Tolkien’s close friends who were aware of the manuscript, including C.S. Lewis, encouraged Tolkien to submit it to a publisher, but Tolkien refused.
Why? Conjecture based on later comments of Tolkien’s was that he feared it would not be taken seriously. Tolkien understood his standing as a scholar, and perhaps believed that The Hobbit would not be seen as a useful application of his scholarly talents.
Serious scholars, after all, did not write “children’s” tales.
The Hobbit, of course, is both a “children’s tale” and something more. Tolkien drew deeply on his knowledge of ancient mythology, primarily northern (Norse) mythology, to flesh out the characters and plot. "
Perhaps the idea that The Hobbit is a myth makes it even more (or at least equally) "serious" and important a work as a fact-based story.
Marcie thanks for the link - after your post and reading the link I think I am not so much at odds with Tolkien but more at odds understanding and accepting the concept of a 'Just War.' That is a question of theology not of Tolkien and his story the Hobbit... because Tolkien's story is as engrossing a read as The Song of Roland was when I read it many years ago.
Thanks, Barbara. It's wonderful to read and discuss books that bring to mind so many different ideas and issues.
Never heard those sayings, BARB. And I really wonder if Tolkien at all intended his little
tale do be seen as a Christian allegory. While it is true we can find many small lessons
for young people here, I cannot at all see it as a "spiritual quest" built on a weapon.
I appreciate MARCIE's point that the "Hobbit" is tale that draws primarily on ancient
and northern mythology.
Now this I cannot relate to at all. Bilbo gets away from his first sighting of the dragon with a single two-handled cup. The dragon goes into a rage that is described as "only seen when rich folk that have more than they can enjoy suddenly lose something that they have long had but never before used of wanted." I cannot imagine flying into a rage over that. Annoyance, yes! Petulance, perhaps. But rage? I know there are personalities whose sense of security lies in having everyone terrified of them, and they would be in a rage if someone showed the disrespect of daring to rob them. Is that what this is?
Oh, good! Thorin has redeemed himself in my eyes. Even though they are in imminent danger, he refuses to abandon the two dwarves left to guard the supplies. He will not permit anyone to run for cover until the two dwarves, and what supplies they can grab, are towed up to safety. He is a dwarf of courage and integrity, at least. Can he surmount the dwarfs great
weakness?
I agree, Babi; this book is primarily myth and not religion. Tolkien's deeply religious outlook only appears as a kind of subtext--the underlying attitude and moral outlook.
I think that's what enraged the dragon, Babi - knowing that someone dared to set foot his sanctuary - not so much as the little cup. Though he wants that cup...
And I thought as you did that Thorin redeemed himself - showed his courage and wondered if he would now take over more of a leadership position. He is at a loss though as to what to do next. Would he have turned back had Bilbo not come up with the idea of going in to see what the dragon is doing?
Loved their conversation - in which the dragon revealed his "overwhelming" personality. He became more human, didn't he? Both Bilbo and Smaug revealed insecurities in this conversation. Smaug had a weakness for flattery, revealing his exposed underside - the left side of his chest as he shows off his diamond doublet to Bilbo. Bilbo's insecurity take root...he begins to question his leader and fellow dwarves. How on earth would they transport his share back to his hobbit hole if they are successful? Do they have any intention of sharing with him? Or worse, have they given any thought at all about planning to return with the haul?
As they talk about the treasure within, I'm wondering what Bilbo would do with spears and shields, huge goblets, heavy emerald necklaces. Was there anything mentioned that Bilbo might want to take with him? It all seems so "inappropriate" for Bag's End (I forget what his home is called.) My bet is that he won't take anything. I wonder - how big is the Arkenstone? What IS the Arkenstone? Just caught up and ready to start Chapter XIII to find out more.
ps Marcie - thank you so much for those links! I love reading about Tolkien's intentions with this magnificent tale!
Loved their conversation - in which the dragon revealed his "overwhelming" personality. He became more human, didn't he? Both Bilbo and Smaug revealed insecurities in this conversation. Smaug had a weakness for flattery, revealing his exposed underside - the left side of his chest as he shows off his diamond doublet to Bilbo. Bilbo's insecurity take root...he begins to question his leader and fellow dwarves. How on earth would they transport his share back to his hobbit hole if they are successful? Do they have any intention of sharing with him? Or worse, have they given any thought at all about planning to return with the haul?
As they talk about the treasure within, I'm wondering what Bilbo would do with spears and shields, huge goblets, heavy emerald necklaces. Was there anything mentioned that Bilbo might want to take with him? It all seems so "inappropriate" for Bag's End (I forget what his home is called.) My bet is that he won't take anything. I wonder - how big is the Arkenstone? What IS the Arkenstone? Just caught up and ready to start Chapter XIII to find out more.
Those are great points, Joan. Yes, Bilbo was trying to flatter Smaug to distract him and was able to find his weakness. Smaug seems like he knows how to undermine Bilbo too. He's skillful at making Bilbo question the dwarves.
I think (but can't remember clearly) that the Arkenstone was mentioned at the beginning of their quest as the pinacle of the dwarves treasure for which they were going to kill the dragon.
I found this info about it:
"The Arkenstone also known as the "Heart of the Mountain" of Thrain was a wondrous gem sought by Thorin Oakenshield in J. R. R. Tolkien's The Hobbit. It was discovered beneath the Lonely Mountain (Erebor) by Thorin's ancestor Thrain and shaped by the Dwarves. The Arkenstone became the family heirloom of Durin's folk, but was lost when the dragon Smaug captured the mountain from the Dwarves. "
There are some images of it at http://www.google.com/search?q=Arkenstone&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Eha&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=OKS7UN32E8bjiwLG64DQCA&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1375&bih=878&sei=O6S7ULWkAeqligLr4YFA
My book says that the name Arkenstone comes from the Anglo-Saxon eorclanstan, "precious stone", which is used in Beowulf. There are other bits from Beowulf in the book.
We're scheduled to move on to the next section today, and new questions are up, but, as always, we can talk about the old section as much as we want.
In today's local newspaper (San Jose mercury News) there was a long article called "Bay Area Hobbitats".
The author came up with many ideas of places to visit around the Bay that could remind one of places in The Hobbit.
However her main thrust is culinary and as she says:
Hobbits are small but very fond of feasting. In fact a normal day in the Shire might include breakfast, second breakfast,
elevensies, lunch, tea, dinner and supper.
She mentions many restaurants that are gearing up to serve special menus for the opening of the movie. Those are local.
However at Denny's, which is a national chain (I think) they are suggesting "Build your own Hobbit Slam.
This includes "Pumpkin,peach pancakes" and "Shire sausages".
As we get closer to tho opening day for the movie there will probably be similar articles and promotions in other parts of the U.S. There's something about the story that invites these ideas.
Do you plan on seeing The Hobbit when it comes out, Jude? I'm sure we'll be hearing more hype and seeing coming attractions for the film as we near the Dec. 14 airing date. We'll probably wait for Netflix. I wonder if real Tolkien fans will show up at the theatres in costume. That would be worth seeing!
Well sure enough, the Arkenstone shows up in the next chapter. Bilbo finds it...and takes it! Doesn't tell the other dwarves and did you notice poor Thorin looking for that particular stone and nothing else? Why do you think Bilbo took it? For himself, for his share - or did he think that it would help them fight the dragon - as the ring had proven itself to be useful?
What good is seeing all this treasure if they are helpless against Smaug when he returns? Does Bilbo have a plan? Does he still believe "where there is life, there is hope?" Is he still feeling light-hearted, upbeat, positive? Or does he despair as the dwarves seem to be doing? Actually, the dwarves seem distracted by the treasure, cramming their pockets with gems... even Bilbo is decked out in a coat of mail, a belt of pearls. He feels magnificent, but admits he must look absurd. This get-up won't do any good when Smaug returns. What's the plan? Surely Smaug will smell the dwarves as soon as he returns...
Beautiful gems, MARCIE. From the description in 'The Hobbit', I gather that it was faceted
so the smooth stones wouldn't fit. I have an image in my mind's eye, and I imagine each of
us does.
That could be great fun, JUDE, ..going out to have a 'Hobbit' meal. Hopefully, ideas from
Bilbo's pantries rather than the journey fare.
The beautiful Arkenstone. Bilbo cannot resist it. He places it in his pocket, justifying himself by deciding this is his choice for his share. But like the ring, he decides not to tell the dwarves about it just now. The Arkenstone, like the ring, seem to be key treasures in this story.
But how he can keep quiet about it when he sees how much it means to Thorin...that disturbs
me.
And Thorin, he keeps changing from the courageous king to the timid 'you do it' guy. Bilbo is ready to explore the treasure cavern, but Thorin, the supposed leader of this expedition, says that Bilbo is still the official investigator, and if he wanted to risk a light that was his affair, and they would wait in the tunnel 'for his report'. I would think these incidents would lessen him in the eyes of his followers, but perhaps this is typical dwarf behavior.
JoanP, as Babi says, Bilbo cannot resist the Arkenstone. It seems to have a similar power to the ring....calling out to be owned (or own the owner?) The book says:
Suddenly Bilbo's arm went towards it drawn by its enchantment. His small hand would not close about it, for it was a large and heavy gem; but he lifted it, shut his eyes and put it in his deepest pocket.
"Now I am a burglar indeed!" thought he. "But I suppose I must tell the dwarves about it-some time. The did say I could pick and choose my own share; and I think I would choose this, if they took all the rest!" All the same he had an uncomfortable feeling that the picking and choosing had not really been meant to include this marvellous gem, and that trouble would yet come of it.
It's true that Thorin always searched from side to side for the Arkenstone but he didn't mention it to anyone.
I'm sure we have not heard the last of it.
Jude, that's interesting that restaurants are picking up on Hobbit food. Never miss a marketing opportunity!
I hope the restaurants have plenty of mushrooms; that's a hobbit favorite.
If I don't see it before, I'll probably go see the movie with my SIL at Christmas time. I'm going to pass up the golden opportunity to see it at midnight the 13th/14th with my sci-fi book group, even though at least one of them will be in costume.
Dragon hoards acquire an evil power of attraction, but the Arkenstone seems to have already had the power of attraction. Thorin has been hoping all along to find it. Now the dwarves are arming themselves with rich armor, and Bilbo gets a little coat of mail made of mithril, the silver-steel of the elves. We'll see this coat again a generation later, in LOTR, when Frodo takes it on his quest; it proves to be very useful indeed.
Is it clear yet why Thorin wants it? Is he attracted to it the same way that Bilbo is? Or does he have another use for it? I'm guessing that Thorin knows the power of this stone, whereas Bilbo is just feeling its attraction - and sensing that it is worth taking.
Although I am reading along with you I am only minimumly participating in the discussion.
I admit that I was curious about this book.
I know that most of you really like this story. So I will ask you:
1)What type of a quest is this? Gold , precious stones , jewels? Or is there something else that I am not seeing?
Don't say Bilbo is gaining courage. That is understood in every quest story.
Overcoming the Evil Dragon?
Is that the quest?
2) What does the Dragon symbolize? Rich people who just want more riches for the sake of having them?
Why the dragon can't even brag about his wealth. He has no friends, no compatriots, no sharers in his ill gotten gains.He can't write about it or sing about it or announce it from the rooftops.
3)Are we to understand that the gold will have more meaning if and when it is returned to its true owners? Share the wealth perchance?
Are we to surmise from the story that stealing is bad especially when you don't use the wealth for anyone except yourself?
What are we to make of this long story? Is it symbolic or do people read symbols into it? Perhaps it really is "just a children's story".No more ,no less.
Perhaps it is something we haven't seen in the story yet, Jude. Up until now the dwarves have been pursuing what belonged to their fathers, and therefore to them. I still don't know what's motivating Bilbo. Could be something as simple as self-respect . Could be a mid-life crisis kind of thing - an unwillingness to admit that his days for adventure are over.
I'm thinking that when the day comes that Smaug is dead, the real story will begin. How the dwarves, the Lake people, the elves will regard the treasure in the mountain. New wealth does strange things to people.
Weren't you really shocked to see Smaug go out so early in the story. I'd been expecting a fight and dragon-slaying at the end. In case some of you have not moved on to the next chapter, I won't reveal how, or who slayed him - except to point out that it was Bilbo's discovery of Smaug's weak spot that made it possible to bring him down. Without that knowledge, that dragon would still be ravaging the Lake people and terrorizing the dwarves.
Good questions, Judy. What is the quest? For the dwarves, it's straightforward; they want to recover the treasure that was stolen from them, and re-establish their old kingdom under the mountain. For Bilbo, at first it's not a quest at all. He's merely roped into it by Gandalf and the dwarves, has no objective of his own. Does it become more? In Chapter 1 Tolkien says "--well, you will see whether he gained anything in the end."
What does anyone think, or is it too soon to say?
So while the dwarves are reveling in their treasure, looking for a safe place to hole up, and wondering where the dragon is, where is Smaug? He's off getting his revenge on the town, and coming to a bad end. Here's Tolkien's rough sketch of his last moments:
Death of Smaug (http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/File:J.R.R._Tolkien_-_Death_of_Smaug.jpg)
Maybe a bit too soon to guess at Bilbo's quest just yet, Pat. I don't think Bilbo really knows what has drawn him to this adventure- except for Gandalf's prodding. Do you think it has something to do with Gandalf's knowledge of Bilbo's ancestors? It seems that most of the characters are ftaking up their grandparents' issues, why not Bilbo? Maybe his grandmother Took?
What fun to bring this story to the screen! I'm looking forward to the new one, just to sww how it has been translated to the screen. Tolkien's vivid word descriptions serve as staging direction for the settings, don't they? ...and his own sketches and illustrations too!
I found that same sketch, Pat...by Tolkien himself. Was typing this out while you were posting~ My annotated edition contains these remarks by the author when he learns that his sketch is being considered for the cover of a paperback edition in 1966:
"I am not very happy about the use of this scrawl as a cover." Then he goes on to criticize his own sketch in notes in the left margin:
"The moon should be a crescent, it was only a few nights after the New Moon on Durin's Day."
In the bottom left corner he writes:
"Dragon should have a white naked spot where the arrow enters."
At the bottom he writes:
"Bard the Bowman should be standing after release of arrow at extreme left point of the piles."
He sounds like a movie director, doesn't he?
(http://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/8/8e/J.R.R._Tolkien_-_Death_of_Smaug.jpg)
I came across this bit of info. on the upcoming film. I've trimmed it down a bit.
The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey will be shown on a special kind of film with a
rate of 48 frames per second. To put it simply, viewers long accustomed to seeing 24 frames every second will see twice that many when they watch The Hobbit. I spoke to Peter Jackson at Comic-Con and he mentioned that it takes the eye a few minutes to adjust to the
frame rate. Having seen the entire film in 48 FPS, I know what he meant -- and my
feelings about the format are very mixed. Why would they choose to do that? ???
What does the dragon symbolize, JUDE? Just what you suggest, I imagine, only perhaps
reversed. If you are an ill-tempered creature that considers all other living things
to be food, having no friends or companions, I suppose the treasure is all you have.
Which would pretty well describe the archetypical miser. As for the dwarves, I feel
they are seeking to reclaim not only the wealth, but their ancestral heritage as well.
Well, we got the dragon attack and slaying, JOAN. Just not at the end. The slaying
of the dragon serves well to introduce the late-arriving new hero, BARD, of the line
of Dale.
Dear Bilbo. He is dressed in a beautiful suit of mithri armor, a jeweled belt and a helmet studded with jewels. His reaction? "I feel magnificent, but I expect I look rather absurd." He is so down-to-earth...no pun intended. I immediately thought of Robt. Frost: "Oh would some power the giftie gie us, to see ourselves as others see us. It would from many a blunder free us, and foolish notion."
You are asking some central questions, Jude. As Pat indicates "In Chapter 1 Tolkien says '--well, you will see whether he gained anything in the end.' " Perhaps we have to wait to see more events to discover a fuller meaning to the dragon, treasure and all involved.
JoanP, I had your same reaction. Smaug was killed sort of "behind the scenes" from the dwarves. I was surprised that they didn't have to participate in the fight...except to "flush him out" so to speak. It was Smaug's own need for "revenge" that was his undoing. And the thrush passed on the needed information about the weak spot in his underbelly.
Thanks for the picture, Pat, and the notes, Joan. Tolkien does sound like a film director.
Babi, I appreciate your analysis and I am on the same page with you regarding your comments.
Interesting about the technical aspects of the film including frame rate. All of the decisions that need to be made by the director! I found this info about the 48 frames per second in wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_rate
* 48p is a progressive format and is currently being trialed in the film industry. At twice the traditional rate of 24p, this frame rate attempts to reduce motion blur and flicker found in films. Director James Cameron stated his intention to film the two sequels to his film Avatar at a higher frame rate than 24 frames per second, in order to add a heightened sense of reality. The first film to be filmed at 48 FPS was The Hobbit, a decision made by its director Peter Jackson. At a preview screening at CinemaCon, the audience's reaction was mixed after being shown some of the film's footage at 48p, with some arguing that the feel of the footage was too lifelike (thus breaking the suspension of disbelief).
Babi
It was Robert Burns who said:
"Oh would some power the giftie gie to us,
to see ourselves as others see us.
Robert Frost said:
The woods are lovely, dark and deep
But I have promises to keep
And miles to go before I sleep.
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
November Book Club Online
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hobbit/hobbitcover.jpg) | The Hobbit turns 75 this fall, an occasion likely to cause many thousands of people to reflect with fondness on their childhood memories of the adventures of Bilbo Baggins.
Though a much loved and widely respected children’s book, this work is too often overlooked by adults who relegate it to the nursery bookshelf. "The Hobbit is a brilliantly constructed story unfolding themes that adult readers will still find compellingly relevant to the modern world: themes such as the nature of evil and the significance of human choice, or the corruptive power of greed and the ease with which good people can be drawn into destructive conflict." Corey Olsen is an Assistant Professor of English at Washington College in Maryland
Bilbo Baggins begins as a cautious and conservative hobbit, well respected and considered a pillar of the hobbit community. When he reluctantly sets out on a quest to recover the stolen treasure of a band of dwarves, he encounters dangers of all descriptions. His adventures, which figure prominently in a prophecy of the dwbarves, are like stepping stones on the inner journey Biblo must take to find his courage. Bilbo faces trials which again and again force him to look deep inside himself for the strength and resourcefulness he needs to complete the task expected of him. |
Discussion Schedule
| Ch 1 - 3 |
Nov 12-16 |
| Ch 4 - 6 |
Nov 17-21 |
| Ch 7 - 8 |
Nov 22-26 |
| Ch 9 - 12 |
Nov 27-Dec 1 |
| Ch 13 - 15 |
Dec 2-5 |
| Ch 16 - 18 |
Dec 6-9 | Now Discussing |
| Ch 19 and overall |
Dec 10-13 |
Questions for Consideration
To notice for the whole book:
Tolkien incorporated many elements of myth, legend, and fairy tale. What ones do you see? Are they effective?
The story takes place in Middle Earth. Is this our world? How is it the same or different?
The Hobbit is a prelude to The Lord of the Rings. If you are familiar with LOTR, notice which elements are present here, and what differences there are.
What different races of creatures do we meet? What is each like?
Chapter 16.
1. What plan does Bilbo carry out?
2. What are Bilbo's motives?
3. How does Gandalf react to Bilbo?
4. Is it true that defeat may glorious? If so, what makes it glorious?
Chapter 17.
1. What is Thorin's reaction to the "new tidings" brought by Bard and the Elvenking? What does he promise? Do you think he intends to keep his agreement? Do all of the dwarves agree with Thorin?
2. What happens to Bilbo?
3. After Dain and his army of dwarves arrives and the battle is about to be enjoined, what warning does Gandalf have for everyone that causes them to band together?
4. How are many of them saved? If there is a war of good against evil, who is on which side? How is the role of nature portrayed during these chapters?
5. Where is Bilbo during the fighting?
Chapter 18.
1. After the battles, what is Thorin's appraisal of Bilbo?
2. Who accompanies Bilbo on the roads home?
3. What treasures are given to Bilbo and what does he do with some of them? What parting gift did Bilbo give the Elvenking en route home? Does it seem reasonable to you? Why or why not?
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net ); Marcie (marciei@aol.com), Babi (pmg371@aol.com), Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com )
ohhh they are wings! thanks so much JoanP for posting the art work - there was a small copy in the book I am reading and I thought it was a pen point and gave up trying to figure it all out...
Jude I've been reviewing trying to nail further your question and up to where we are reading it appears to me Bilbo's adventure is simply like many of us, an adventure that is just part of living without any motive to accomplish something in particular - I think we all go through a phase in our life where something is thrown at us and we struggle with all sorts of demons to come out of a personal spiral. Part of what we do is to look at our heritage and use the examples of others in the family who we know had faced some serious life experiences - I think Bilbo looks to define himself and realized he has some Tuck heritage which helps him go forward.
I see that Thorin only had his agenda after he started the adventure and they met Elrond and so maybe something will come up for Bilbo that makes this adventure more focused as a personal quest for him -
As to the Dragon, I see him because of the early and terrible war between Dragons and Goblins, as so many soldiers when they are spiritually wounded they make up for their inner emptiness by accumulating - some accumulate women or get numb on drink or drugs or they accumulate treasure - the plunder is probably like Beorn had his dead enemy on poles in front of his house - we read how soldiers still take from their enemy as they walk through a battle area - plus, any ancient army that I ever read about were only paid in the plunder they could take with them after winning a battle. Yes, I see Smaug with human qualities.
War is usually described in heroic terms but from what I understand soldiers easily loose all normal boundaries and so, what belongs to anyone is from a culture and value system that they have had to abandon in order to stay alive followed by the struggle to not only act but believe the moral values before their personal war are still who they are.
I can see how a soldier must struggle when booty is part of the experience associated with, when what was normal did not exist. We see that, maybe not with as much treasure as booty but, retired soldiers die in old age and attic trunks opened hold helmets, flags, guns, shells, photos, and other personal affects of their enemy.
We even had that fun movie years ago Kelly's Heroes where Donald Sutherland was going behind enemy lines with his tank crew to rob the bank so they could make off with the money and not be caught by the US military. I guess that is why it was so funny - we usually associate that behavior with a hoarding monster dragon... ;)
So, while the dwarves cower in their claustrophobic tunnel, finally coming out to revel in the treasure and find a new hiding hole, great things are happening in the valley. Smaug descends on the town and tries to set everything on fire. Did you notice that he doesn't like to fly close to the lake because he knows the water can quench him? Grim-faced Bard the Bowman kills the dragon, with the help of the thrush's information.
Now comes the difficult recuperation. Notice how Bard and the Master each use their political skills. What is each one trying to do, and how successful is each?
Oh, drat! Did I do that? Of course it's Robert Burns. Frost is such a favorite of
mine, though, that the name 'Robert' seems to merge into 'Frost' all too often.
Good question, PAT. Bard doesn't really want to be mayor of that town, does he?
So he supports the Master by taking care of the wounded and sick and clearing wreckage.
But his hope is to re-establish his ancestral line at Dale. The Master, of course, though still
suspicious of Bard, definitely wants to keep his very profitable position. The Master sat where he was and "said little, unless it was to call loudly for men to bring him fire and food." And if the town cannot be salvaged, he will slip away with as much wealth as possible.
The ravens have been most helpful to the dwarves, and shown themselves reliable. The oldest of the ravens tells Thorin not to trust the master, but to listen to Bard. Then, "We would see peace once more among dwarves and men and elves after the long desolation." Surely a wonderful possibility now. But immediatly Thorin's greatest weaknesses, his love of gold and his stubbornness, flare up. He calls those approaching 'thieves' and 'the violent'. It's heartbreaking to think how one leader's faults can bring disaster for so many. Bilbo longed to leave them then, and even some of the dwarves "were moved in their hearts", too, and they muttered that they "wished things had fallen out otherwise and that they might welcome such folk as friends".
I've just started the second of the Halo Forerunner series. What you say? What? Greg Bear, the author, paid homage to Tolkien by mentioning that a character in the series, usually called a Florian, is alternatively known as a Hobbit.
This may sound a little odd, but I quite liked the character Smaug. I think it must be because in the original cartoon movie the character voice was Richard Boone.
There is a lesson in there about how greed, unfettered (in this case once Smaug was out of the way), destroys long standing friendships and alliances. Oh what rationalizations they all come up with. Those very few who are not motivated by greed, like Bard, are suspect.
Thorin wants to re-establish his kingdom under the mountain. There's a flaw in his plan--even with the military help of his relatives from Iron Mountain, he won't be able to succeed without the good will of the valley-dwellers. The dwarves never grew their own food, relying on trade with the men of Dale. They risk eventually starving, since the men won't now be willing to trade with them.
I really like the onomatopoeic names of the ravens: Carc and Roäc.
Babi, yes, I noted that not all of the dwarves wanted to follow Thorin but they didn't want to defy him. I guess they knew they would not be able to change his mind.
Frybabe, I too thought that Smaug was interesting. I thought he'd play a bigger role. He reminded me a bit of Gollum.
Pat, the treasure seems to have overpowered Thorin. He certainly wasn't thinking straight.
Those birds are interesting, aren't they? - the way they speak languages understood by certain groups, not others... I was surprised that Bilbo was able to understand old Roac...it seems he speaks "ordinary language" - not bird speech. Though he was able to understand the thrush. I guess you'd say Roac was multi-lingual... I think we'll be hearing more bird-speak in the difficult days ahead. Intermediaries seem to be needed.
PatH, will you explain Roac's name as "onomatopoeic" - I don't quite hear it...
Frybabe, I agree with what you are saying about the lesson here about unfettered greed destroying friendships and alliances. Up to this point I think we were reading an adventure story - the good dwarves on a mission to take back their family home and treasure from the evil killer- dragon. But the story is taking a turn now, don't you think?
Poor Bilbo, he thought the adventure was over once the dragon was slain, the treasure restored. If he could, he'd leave now - even forget his share. (Don't forget he's already got the Arkenstone in his pocket.)
Can you see an alliance - Bilbo, Bambur, Kili, Fili - pacifists against Thorin, as the threat of war escalates? I'll bet on Bilbo to figure out a peaceful way out of this sticky situation.
PatH, you gave me a new word to look up.
I wanted to check on when Tolkien wrote The Hobbit and what his views on war were. Four interesting things emerged: he wrote the book sometime earlier than its publication, having originally written it for his children; he was not a pacifistic, was opposed to Nazism and Stalinism, but was horrified by and critical of the excesses of war (ex: Hiroshima, anti-German propaganda); his treatment of race and racism evolved over time to a more anti-racism stance in his later writings; he loved a simple country life. The latter, I think, shows up in his descriptions of Bilbo's home and community. As far as racism in his writings, I hadn't noticed. Apparently some scholars believe that there was intentional racism, or unconscious ethnocentric bias, or latent racism in his earlier writings. Sometimes I think scholars over think things.
What a good ear you have, PatH. You're so right; Carc and Roac, if you say the
names out loud, are 'crow' sounds. I would never have noticed that!
Sometimes I think scholars over think things.
I think you're right,
FRYBABE.
It's confusing. The Elvenking, hurrying to the treasure mountain, turns aside at the plea from Bard to come to the aid of the destroyed town and people of Esgaroth. We read that "he was the lord of a good and kindly people". So, why did he imprison the dwarves when they came to him for help? It's not like they were ancient enemies. It was the dwarves who made so many of the things the elves treasured, like the mithril armor. The two races had been friendly. What did I miss?
Babi, I didn't think the dwarves came to the Elvenking for help - I remember they were caught trespassing on his land and refused to tell him why. Either it was as simple as that...or again, maybe it was GREED - maybe he suspected that they were on the way to Lonely Mountain to somehow reclaim their treasure - and wanted a share. It seems there is no trust at this time.
:D Maybe Roac's name sounds like the croaking of a very old raven?
JoanP, I think you're right that the story has taken a turn from the "adventure" of killing the dragon and reclaiming the dwarves kingdom and treasure. Now it seems it is about to be the dwarves against the men and wood elves.... over treasure. Babi, it did seem that the dwarves and elves had worked together in the past.
I'm glad that you looked up that information about Tolkien's views on war, Frybabe. In Bilbo, he does seem to want to choose another way for the groups that risks his own life to prevent war. And he does seem to cherish the country life of "nature."
Tolkien seems to hate modern, mechanized warfare. It's a criticism of the goblins that they invented "ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once", and this attitude appears more in LOTR.
He had good reason; he fought in WWI, starting with the Battle of the Somme, that monstrously mismanaged bloodbath, with 50,000 casualties on the first day alone. He managed to get his platoon to whatever their objective was, but that didn't do any good; everyone had to fall back because so few had made it. He escaped being wounded, but some months later fell very ill with trench fever, and had to be hospitalized for months.
It's a different matter when it comes to the older style legendary fighting with swords, etc. He seems to say you shouldn't fight needlessly, but should be ready to fight, and he definitely admires the glory and heroism involved. You don't see that so much here, but there's a lot of it in LOTR.
Funny how Tolkien has you wavering back and forth. I thought Thorin made a reasonable request when he asked the Lakemen and the elves to lay down their weapons so they can parley.I've a note that a parley, in military situations, is usually accompanied by a temporary truce, for the purpose of discussing terms.
It turns out that he didn't want a truce at all - didn't want to share what he thought was his - all his. I thought Bard made a better case for a share of the wealth to rebuild what Smaug has destroyed. Also, perhaps he made a bigger case regarding the portion of the hord Smaug had been stealing from them over the years.
Neither side is going to back down on this. How can there be a parley? Clearly war is unavoidable. Even Bilbo's clever maneuver of giving the Arkenstone to Bard as a bargaining chip fell on deaf ears. Thorin never intended to give up Bilbo's share even if Bard returned his precious heirloom - something he wanted more than anything in the world. He knows fellow dwarf, Dain, is on the way to fight back the lake men and the elves. Why? Are they hoping for a share too?
But what's this? The goblins are coming! The goblins are coming! Why? They are armed to the teeth! Will there be an end to those in pursuit of the treasure?
The battle of five armies is on!
Good points, Pat, about the horrors of war, especially the goblins' "ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once" and the sometimes necessary acceptance of one-on-one combat. In The Hobbit, Bilbo is trying to have everyone avoid any type of combat. He just wants peace... and to go home. He thinks that the Arkenstone will be a good parlay chip for Bard and the Elvenking. He knows how much Thorin wants that stone. He's risking a lot to bring it to the supposed "enemy" and risking alot returning to the dwarves. He could have stayed with Bard and the elves but he feels loyalty to the dwarves.
JoanP, what a lot of twists in the plot!
--The dwarves are ready to try to kill the dragon.
--Unknown to them, Bard has already killed Smaug, after the dragon has decimated a lot of the people and town.
--Thorin and the dwarves stake out a claim to the Mountain and treasure.
--The Men and wood-elves come to wait the dwarves out and get at least some of the treasure.
--Bilbo tries to negotiate a peace.
--Dain is on his way with an army of dwarves to fight for the treasure.
--It looks like there will be a big battle between the dwarves and the Men/elves.
--Now Gandolf tells them that the Goblins and wargs are coming!!!! They've learned that the dragon is dead. Now is their chance to kill off all the other creatures in their way.
--It's now the "good guys" banded together against the "evil guys."
--Yikes!
I can't imagine what part Bilbo will play in all this, now that Gandalf is on the scene. Poor Bilbo - he's fulfilled his assigned task, handed over his share, including the prized Arkenstone in his attempt at arbitration. Hasn't he earned time off? He can taste the bacon and eggs ...
What more can one little hobbit do as the five armies gather...
I just remembered - he still has that ring in his pocket...
General early morning thoughts: Shifting alliances; good vs evil, within oneself and from without; self discovery; altruism vs selfishness; warmongering vs peaceful solutions to problems. Themes within themes.
So very thankful that you are on the lookout for those general themes and implications, Fry! I confess to being so caught up in three December family birthday celebrations, that my late-night reading time is spent turning the pages, totally involved in following Tolkien's plot. :D
As I remember it, JOANP, the elves stumbled on the Elvenking's gathering in the
woods, when they were lost and hungry. The elves disappeared before the dwarves
could ask for help. They managed to find them twice more, but with the same result.
The dwarves found their home site, but one of the dwarves let his aggravation come
out in sarcasm and arrogance. Don't remember which one. I think that is what decided
the Elvenking to declare them trespassers. He had some excuse for that, imo, but I
think a couple of days in the dungeons would have been punishment enough.
"He seems to say you shouldn't fight needlessly, but should be ready to fight, and
he definitely admires the glory and heroism involved."
I think you're right, PAT, and I can sympathize. I can always admire self-sacrificing
heroism and courageous action. There's no 'glory' in slaughtering people from a safe
distance with the push of a button. With modern weapons, we are now able to destroy
mankind and the planet earth, and our precarious safety depends on our restraint in
their use. God help us!
Nothing like a deadly threat from a common enemy to bring opposing sides to agreement.
Elves, Men, and dwarves alike join their enemies in planning their defense from the goblins, wargs and wolves coming on fast. And Gandalf is with them, as always, in the nick of time. This wizard has unquestionably got more powers than he has let anyone see thus far. Will he reveal more in this crisis, I wonder?
"....defeat may be glorious." Bilbo's opinion on that "It seems very uncomfortable, not to say distressing. I wish I was well out of it." The little fellow does have a talent for understatement.
Still, it's true, isn't it, that we memorialize some defeats as glorious? I'm thinking of such as the Alamo, Thermopylae... What makes such losses 'glorious'?
Frybabe, I too appreciate your bringing those themes to our attention here. Perhaps we can all be on the lookout for others.
Babi, I think that the fact that Thorin and the other dwarves wouldn't tell the elves why they were in their forest is the main reason the elves kept them prisoners, though there seems to be fault for the impasse on both sides.
Near the end of Chapter 8, Tolkien describes the Wood-elves..."These are not wicked folk. If they have a fault, it is distrust of strangers.... They differed from the High Elves of the West, and they were more dangerous and less wise.... Still elves they were and remain, and that is Good People."
The elves found Thorin, the first of the dwarves to be captured by the spiders and they dragged him away to their king's cave/dungeons. "they did not love dwarves and thought he was an enemy.... In ancient days they had had wars with some of the dwarves whom they accused of stealing their treasure." The ancient dwarves had a different story...about not being paid for their services and only taking what was owed them.
When questioned by the elf king about his reason for being in the forest at all, Thorin "shut his mouth and would not say another word. 'Very well,' said the king. 'Take him away and keep him safe, until he feels inclined to tell the truth, even if he waits a hundred years.'"
So it looks like past misunderstandings, offenses and ill will continue to plague the Wood-elves and dwarves. Will they be able to put aside their differences if faced with a common enemy -- the terrible goblins?
When the black clouds of bats and goblins appeared, I noticed the goblins' red and black banners and immediately felt these colors meant something...
this is a repeat that was recommended we include it here in the Hobbit since they too are traveling and learning as they go...
Why We Travel - http://www.worldhum.com/features/travel-stories/why-we-travel-20081213/
Barb
Thank You so much for that wonderful article on travel!
I will pass it on to others.
When the black clouds of bats and goblins appeared, I noticed the goblins' red and black banners and immediately felt these colors meant something...
You're probably right, Joan. I haven't found info about the colors yet.
Thanks for posting that description of the wood-elves, MARCIE. I remember parts of
it, but putting it succinctly as you did was really helpful in understanding the
differences.
JOANP, I think you will find this article interesting, re. red and black banners.
http://www.infoshop.org/AnarchistFAQAppendix2
Hard-headed Thorin. He succumbed to the dwarves greatest weakness, the obsession for gold and treaure. Wiser too late, his last words to Bilbo were, "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded goal, it would be a merrier world. But sad or merry, I must leave it now. Farewell."
I found this so appropriate. They buried Thorin deep in his mountain, and Bard placed his beloved Arkenstone on his chest. And the Elvenking laid upon his tomb the sword Orcrist, which he had taken from Thorin while he was captive with them. I believe he had earned those tributes.
When the black clouds of bats and goblins appeared, I noticed the goblins' red and black banners and immediately felt these colors meant something...
They certainly meant something to Tolkien. In LOTR, they tend to be associated with evil. The army of Orcs (new name for the goblins) has black banners, and the all-seeing Eye of Sauron (who had a bit part here as the Necromancer) is red, rimmed with fire, with a black pupil. Here's a banner with the eye; it's rather tame, but based on a sketch by Tolkien.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Mordor.JRRT.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Mordor.JRRT.jpg)
I know that a black flag has always been associated with anarchy. Not long ago, someone posted here of Tolkien's war experience. My thoughts went to the German flag colors...the black, the red...and later, the gold. Going back further, I came across this article that may be of interest to those looking for a parallel to war...
Tolkien wrote in his Forward to Lord of the Rings:
"One has indeed personally to come under the shadow of war to feel fully its oppression; but as the years go by it seems now often forgotten that to be caught in youth by 1914 was no less hideous an experience than to be involved in 1939 and the following years. By 1918, all but one of my close friends were dead."
Here's the whole article...photos and everything...
J.R.R. Tolkien’s service in the British Army during World War I (http://greenbooks.theonering.net/guest/files/040102_02.html)
Babi, PatH and JoanP, thanks very much for all of the informative and interesting links in the last several posts. (Babi, the site of your link is unavailable right now; I'll check back later.) Those links help me to see more in the story. I appreciate what the author of your last link, JoanP, says about the effect of his war experiences on Tolkien's writing (that there seems to be a deep, underlying effect, though Tolkien has said that he wasn't directly writing about the war):
"Tolkien himself stated that the war had only a limited influence on his writing. However, it is also true that people are shaped by times in which they live. I think it is likely that Tolkien drew on his memories of fighting on the Western Front while writing The Lord of the Rings – perhaps because at the time he was writing it, England was again engaged in total war with Germany, a war that in many ways was the continuation of the one in which he had served. Even though Tolkien denied that his writing was based on his life, he once wrote to his son Christopher regarding his war experiences:
… I took to 'escapism': or really transforming experience into another form and symbol with Morgoth and Orcs and the Eldalie (representing beauty and grace of life and artefact) and so on; and it has stood me in good stead in many hard years since and I still draw on the conceptions then hammered out."
Now you've got me thinking of our little Hobbit - Bilbo wants nothing more than to go home, doesn't want to participate in this war - any more than Tolkien did, from what we can read of his experience in World War I. Do you notice whenever fighting/war breaks out, Bilbo seems to be knocked unconscious and when he comes to, remembers nothing of it? His own form of "escapism"? Do you think Tolkien saw himself in Bilbo - maybe without even being aware of it? That's one way to deal with war memories.
Well I just need to read further because frankly I was not enjoying this story at all - there was no nobility about it - I reviewed the first chapter where the adventure was laid out by Thorin and I realize I did not read it taking what Thorin said that seriously focusing instead on Bilbo and even Gandalf - I can see for me reading the first chapter was like a shell game - my attention was not on Thorin -
I do have an aversion to trying to take back as if there is implied ownership land or wealth lost by some family member in past generations - as an American I know I am guilty but I also know personally and within my family there were all sorts of great losses - we got through by realizing what was lost was over and to hang on kept you trapped in the past and then to realize all this with visions of wealth that so what - the one who gained the wealth is not handling it or sharing it as you would - we can say that about anything - our ownership ends when the wealth is lost regardless how it is lost -
But then using the concept of loss as a metaphysical symbol I see new struggles to understand the concept taught of a returning God to claim what was given but like when we were kids, if I am to understand the covenants and promises, it only amounts to Indian Giving. We may not have done as well as was imagined but after leaving Eden it was ours to mess up or make better and we did a bit of both.
I have read many a myth and some fantasy where there is a quest but there is something noble about the quest and even the magic is shown with character we would like to emulate - this story has a dark dankness about it with the various adventures over shadowed by a greyness - it is not a story I am enjoying but maybe when I get to where you say JoanP that Bilbo sees his home as his shining light that is his rebirth then Tolkien in my eyes will have redeemed himself. Oh I can easily imagine his imagination is the result of his WWI experience however, this is not how this story has been championed - I am now questioning if I want to see the movie -
I remember being very disappointed with the first movie of the trilogy - when I read the trilogy I saw it as an inner fight within ourselves where as, the movie made all the bad guys, so to speak, so horrible you could not identify with that kind of darkness - but here, with the Hobbit I see the quest as I would put it, ridiculous - you just do not go around claiming what someone in your family lost in the past as if the ownership is still yours and then, to put that many people through that kind of fearful experiences just for gold that a great grandfather lost regardless stolen, taken or as a result of a war - sheesh. But more, an agh and grrrr and brrrr and a few more shakes of the head.
Well Barb,
Thanks for your analysis. I agree with much of it.
This book is not my cup of tea. "Nuff said.
I want to remind you all about my special interest in Gollum. There is a two page article in this week's Time Magazine that deals with Gollum, seeing him as the dark side of this movie.
They say
"At a pivotal moment, our Hero encounters Gollum, the haggard creature from TLoTR' Though Gollum is 60 years younger in The Hobbit he is already torn between his desire to be good and his dark addiction to a certain bijou. His coooing over his "precious" is hauntingly familiar.
The rest of the article is devoted to a new cinema technique called Synthespians. Gollum , played by Andy Serkis, is referred to by him as "My Dorian Grey". The whole new technique is a way of making these fictional characters much more real. and
life like. However this technique is mainly focused on Gollum who the filmakers see as an important part of the script.
I wonder how much of the original story will remain in the movie and which parts wil be minimized or deleted.
I could see someone writing a back story on Gollum - he seems like a someone damaged during his childhood and to have him as an image in our mind's eye when we encounter the many damaged humans who cannot get it together seems appropriate -
to my dislike of the book I am reminded of this Robert H. Schuller quote;
Always look at what you have left. Never look at what you have lost.
Well onward - pages left to read...
I don't think the point of the quest for Bilbo is about helping the dwarves get back their lost treasure. I'll hold off saying more until the last chapter, though.
JoanP, that was a remarkably interesting link about Tolkien's war service. Some of the correspondence of WWI and LOTR is obvious, but I hadn't quite realized how much detail there was--the creepy Marshes of the Dead, for instance.
Do you notice whenever fighting/war breaks out, Bilbo seems to be knocked unconscious and when he comes to, remembers nothing of it? His own form of "escapism"? Do you think Tolkien saw himself in Bilbo - maybe without even being aware of it? That's one way to deal with war memories.
JoanP, good point. Since this was written for his children, I imagine he did not want to describe the horrors of war and give the children nightmares.
http://www.thehobbitblog.com/
Interesting thoughts here. As Pat says, it doesn't seem that Bilbo has been co-opted into the same quest that Thorin has. He's sort of turned things on their head by taking the Arkenstone and giving it to the "other side" in order to avoid a war. I think that Bilbo, not Thorin, is the protagonist of the story.
All that is left is the last chapter - we have Bilbo returning from his adventure - Jude did you figure out what was Bilbo's quest -
There were so many things happening around Bilbo so that for part of the time during the climactic battle he was laying on a stone knocked out and earlier he made himself invisible so that again he was not part of the goings on - does that mean the battle was not part of Bilbo's adventure - if not whose adventure was it?
Who changed during the story - coming home does Bilbo see himself differently - would he go running after some dwarfs to be a part of some unknown adventure or was he more self-contained so that the Baggins side of his personality was in the forefront - or was he totally different beyond either the Baggins or Tuck influence?
Was there a message to this story - what was Tolkien trying to say by telling this long and involved although very well brought together story?
Could you keep everyone sorted out during the battle of the five armies. What was the meaning of the battle - was it just a way to bring all the parts and groups together or did the battle provide a message to the reader.
Gold illuminates the quality of sacredness, incorruptibility, wisdom, nobility and wealth - to Christians, gold represents ambivalence as both the pure light, spiritual treasure given by Christ, triumph in adversity, incorruptibility but also, idolatry - The Golden Calf - and worldly wealth.
Seems to me that those in the story who held a claim to the gold were not very wise and many like Smaug tended toward idolatry - is the plea by the Bard for gold to compensate the Lake people and the wood-elves just that - the pull between Justice as spiritual treasure versus, Idolatry that shows itself as greed - Even Bilbo uses his gold to buy back what was more important to him than gold - his possessions. You have to give him some Kudos for using the precious stone to affect peace.
Is it a real quest or adventure when willy nilly you can appear and then disappear - you can protect yourself when you choose or are there other aspects of the story that make this a quest adventure for Bilbo. Comparing Bilbo's ability to disappear with Harry Potter's invisibility cape Harry had many other touchstones of differences that made his venture complete to the fact his parents were fighting the evil that he is dealing with during his adventure. Was Bilbo fighting evil - who was evil - was Thorin evil - how was Smaug evil - was Gollum evil - what about the Master of Laketown was he evil?
My take is that none of the characters are the protagonist - they all add bits and pieces to the adventure - we get to see other sides of them as they engage in this venture - to me it was the Trip that was the protagonist - it provided adventure - comfort - opportunity for both risk and bravery and the opportunity to use your wits, and your free will. With the many twists and turns, rivers, mountains, forests, fields it seems to me the Trip was a character that showed more change than any of the dwarfs, hobbits, wizards, goblins, elves, kings you name it.
Ooops. I thought we were going to talk about the last chapter starting tomorrow. I'll have to reread it, but in the meantime I'll get my thoughts together about the battle.
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
November Book Club Online
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hobbit/hobbitcover.jpg) | The Hobbit turns 75 this fall, an occasion likely to cause many thousands of people to reflect with fondness on their childhood memories of the adventures of Bilbo Baggins.
Though a much loved and widely respected children’s book, this work is too often overlooked by adults who relegate it to the nursery bookshelf. "The Hobbit is a brilliantly constructed story unfolding themes that adult readers will still find compellingly relevant to the modern world: themes such as the nature of evil and the significance of human choice, or the corruptive power of greed and the ease with which good people can be drawn into destructive conflict." Corey Olsen is an Assistant Professor of English at Washington College in Maryland
Bilbo Baggins begins as a cautious and conservative hobbit, well respected and considered a pillar of the hobbit community. When he reluctantly sets out on a quest to recover the stolen treasure of a band of dwarves, he encounters dangers of all descriptions. His adventures, which figure prominently in a prophecy of the dwbarves, are like stepping stones on the inner journey Biblo must take to find his courage. Bilbo faces trials which again and again force him to look deep inside himself for the strength and resourcefulness he needs to complete the task expected of him. |
Discussion Schedule
| Ch 19 and overall |
Dec 10-13 | Now Discussing |
Questions for Consideration
To notice for the whole book:
Tolkien incorporated many elements of myth, legend, and fairy tale. What ones do you see? Are they effective?
The story takes place in Middle Earth. Is this our world? How is it the same or different?
The Hobbit is a prelude to The Lord of the Rings. If you are familiar with LOTR, notice which elements are present here, and what differences there are.
What different races of creatures do we meet? What is each like?
What was Bilbo's quest?
Who changed during the story?
There seems to be a lot of luck and coincidence in this story. Is it really luck? If not, what is it?
Chapter 19.
1. As he returns home, how do the other hobbits respond to Bilbo?
2. Does Bilbo see himself differently? What's important to him?
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net ); Marcie (marciei@aol.com), Babi (pmg371@aol.com), Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com )
I see GREED as the real villain - but not clear about the protagonist here. Sometimes I hear Tolkien saying that each man has the capacity for good and evil-doing -an inner battle between choosing what we know is right - and what is irresistible. Is Bilbo Everyman?
I'm not sure if the battle is strong enough within Bilbo to make him stand out as the protagonist. As the journey nears to an end, and Bilbo nears home, I'm curious to know if he still has the ring in his pocket? Or will that be revealed in the final chapter? Perhaps that will be his treasure.
I'd like to hear more from you all about Thorain. Like Barbara, I wasn't focused on him. -until the end when he assumed a central role. Why did he choose to take back the Mountain from Smaug at this particular time in history? Was it because Smaug was posing such a danger to surrounding inhabitants and the dwarves felt compelled to stop him - and take back what was once theirs?
And then again, determined to hold the Mountain once Smaug was overcome, what made Thorain step forward and call a halt to the siege?
Off to a family gathering until tomorrow - it is fascinating to read the different reactions to the story. My 10 year old nephew will be at this party. I'm giving him a copy of the book, though I do have a back-up present if there is a problem with it...a problem with his mother's reaction. :D
First, I want to pass on to you this treasure, posted in the Library, by PEDLN.
Scroll down 3-4 rows and you will find marvelous 'Hobbit' gifts.
http://pinterest.com/akpearl/a-book-lover-s-christmas/
BARB, your interest in symbolism comes through in everything. It's as though everything means something else; that there are hidden meanings, 'spiritual' meanings, to every action. I sometimes wonder if the author could possibly have intended all that you see.
It was satisfying to read that Dain remained, the new King of the Mountain. I like to imagine, in my cheerful lapses into fantasy, to imagine such places and such beings as still there. The same with Beorn and his bear-man descendents. What would I not give to spend a spring and summer in those meadows.
Does it seem a bit much to the rest of you, that Bilbo's sense of integrity required him to make an expensive gift to the Elvenking on parting with him. Sure, he swiped some food and drink while he was there, invisibly working toward freeing his friends. But under those circumstnces, I would hardly think myself indebted to their captor.
Seems that I do see many facets of aspects of a story - however, when it comes to myth and fantasy wrapped in myth symbolism is most often the crux of the story - like going down the street and knowing the symbols for a barber shop and a gas station - you see the symbol and know what it means and what to expect. Over the years I have picked up several books listing and explaining the meaning of traditional symbols - I also practice a faith that is steeped in symbolism as are the ceremonies in most religions - as a nation we have a few, like the flag and knowing what the first Monday in October means along with some of the permanent holidays but with so many of them moving holidays now they have lost their references.
This is said to be a book about good and evil and so being observant of the exchanges between characters that show that battle of good and evil seems to be part of the read. I remember as a kid we had whole classroom discussions on if it was evil to take bare necessities - then we were talking about the character in Les Mis which we read in 8th grade and earlier there were some short stories that I no longer remember although, I believe also written by Maupassant. The topic of taking basics came up and it was decided that it was wrong - and so today, reading how Bilbo burgled food seemed reasonable and yet, back during mid-twentieth century it was considered wrong. And so with that I guess we can say that Bilbo represents both good and evil - to me he is a good one throughout.
It was Thorin who surprised me - like JoanP it never occurred what was his intent and yet, when you re-read that first chapter it is all there. Made me feel vulnerable to how often I am being fooled because I have one viewpoint and the other event that seems out of sight or beyond belief is ignored. I am thinking that is what this nation did about Global Warming - granted there were two sides to the issue and if the one side was spouting their pooh poohing of the situation hmm I guess they were like Thorin, wanting what was - that provided them with wealth - hmm more examples than at first flush reading this book -
I still felt uncomfortable with the story and feel the story was just a chance to dump a lot of unwarranted turmoil that was supposed to be under the surface for generations. As if we are our history - not taking into consideration cause and effect - most turmoil does have an immediate or still simmering cause - in this story instead of 'the devil made me do it' Tolkien seems to be saying 'my deceased great grandfather made me do it.'
Since all of you see so much in this book that I don't I keep trying to understand "THE QUEST in the book.
Well it came to me after I read an aricle in the magazine section of our newspaper. It was an interview with Marin Freeman who plays Bilbo in the movie.
He says that Peter Jackson sees Bilbo as intelligent, funny, surprising and brave. Also that"BIlbo finds himself in
situations where , either for himself or his comrades, he has to act. That is real heroism".
Now I read the account of Tolkiens wartime experience twice even before it was posted on this site. I see his experience as different than the comments made by others here.
First of all Tolkien put off joining the army till 1916 while most of his contemporaries were in from 1914. Some had already died. He spent less than a year on the front after contracting both Trench Foot and Trench Fever. He spent the rest of the war in England since he was found unfit for duty in battle. On the Front more of his friends and colleagues were dying. Tolkien spent the rest of the war doing office duties at his home headquarters. During this period Tolkiens first son was born.
I beleive that Bilbo's struggles to act and act correctly when the need arose was Tolkiens struggle.
The need for "real" action to save one's comrades was Tolkiens unfinished experience which he put to rest by writing this book which really was his first.
So many dead friends must have left a residue in Tolkiens concious that he, unlike them, survived and returned to his own bed. To assuage that guilt we have the mild and undistinguished Bilbo who is a lopsided hero but a hero never the less.
So there is the Quest that I was searching for.
hmmm interesting - I like it - not something i would have thought through and yet, it fits so well - thanks Jude.
By protagonist, I'm thinking "main character" of the story. I do see that as Bilbo, "the hobbit" of the book title. It seems to me that the book is mainly about him and his actions/reactions.
In the beginning Bilbo seems set in his ways and usually content to keep to the background. Then, he takes on the challenge of being the "burglar" among the troop of dwarves, mostly it seems to me because he felt backed into it and his "Took" side took over. During the journey, he had several opportunities to show courage, ingenuity and skill and, as Jude points out, he made the choice to take action even at the risk of his life.
I appreciate your bringing that analysis here, Jude. It makes sense to me.
interesting article about the difference between the protagonist and the main character.
http://storyfanatic.com/articles/story-structure/the-true-definition-of-a-protagonist
I thought the protagonist was the one who shows the most change - now I am thoroughly confused.
That is a little confusing.
I might have found the article less confusing if I had read or seen any of the stories he was talking about.
Deep topic for a classroom discussion, BARB. I would suppose it was intended to
help young people make moral choices. As a kid, I would have decided the same way, I'm sure. Now that I'm much older and have had time to consider more carefully, I see another point of view. In the Christian ethic, we are commanded to feed the hungry and clothe the naked. If we did so, they would not be driven to theft in order to survive. The right to life is also confirmed in our earliest documents as a nation. So now, it seems to me that the wrong, the 'evil', is most squarely on those who fail to share what we have to meet the needs of desperate fellow beings.
Oh, my. Somebody help me down off this soapbox. ::)
So now we are on the last stage of our adventure, very tired, I'm sure.
Once again, happily, we get to stay a while at Elrond's house. One could recover from most anything there, I believe. I had to smile at the elves singing a 'lullaby' under his window while he was already sleeping. And Bilbo wakes and goes to the window and informs the 'merry people', "Your lullaby would waken a drunken goblin! Yet, I thank you." I wouldn't mind that myself, especially as I could then go back to bed.
One more comment about the battle. The attack of the goblins and wargs saved the day in a way. It came just in time to stop the elves, men and dwarves from fighting each other, so even though many lives were lost, afterward the 3 peoples could co-exist peacefully.
That's a good point, Pat. The goblin attack was turned into an opportunity to work together, although many lives were lost. Lives would have been lost too, if the dwarves had fought the elves and men.
Ginny shared an interesting short article about the Tolkien manuscripts which are housed at the University of Marquette. The article is at
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/09/opinion/sunday/hobbits-in-the-heartland.html
Near the bottom of the article is a link to a lecture by a Tolkien scholar. It's fascinating and included information (about halfway through) about the 1937 version of THE HOBBIT which had very different interactions between Bilbo and Gollum. It's the 1960's version that we've been reading together, which was re-written after Tolkien wrote Lord of the Rings.
Once again, happily, we get to stay a while at Elrond's house. One could recover from most anything there, I believe. I had to smile at the elves singing a 'lullaby' under his window while he was already sleeping. And Bilbo wakes and goes to the window and informs the 'merry people', "Your lullaby would waken a drunken goblin! Yet, I thank you." I wouldn't mind that myself, especially as I could then go back to bed.
Babi, I too smiled at Bilbo's typically wry reaction. I love the humor that surrounds Bilbo's character in much of the story.
Well Pat for that you get a gold star - all that goings on during the battle - stars and medals to anyone who could sort out who was with whom and where they were heading and where they came from and what they were protecting - Holy Hannah - but you sorted it out and got something from it. Rah Rah -
I got the impression that Tolkien sees these wars as the result of ancient fights when towns were destroyed after they were plundered - do you think all this was a grudge match for the elves?
Then when Bilbo gets home he has another skirmish on his hands with the very folks who were friends and neighbors - is life being depicted as nothing but an effort to protect what you have - and live on your own keeping a safe distance from even neighbors who have another idea of how you should live?
We took the long way home from New Jersey yesterday. Got home later than planned.
We drove through The shore towns... No longer front page news...we forget those in New York/New Jersey who have lost everything...with winter coming on. The saddest are those who are simply camping in the moldy homes with no heat or electricity... Mold seems to be the biggest problem right now...piles of appliances, furniture, cabinets, insulation in front of nearly every home. Where are they taking all of this contaminated stuff? You can't just dump it in the land fill, can you? Mold and housing for those who lost everything will be a major problem for a long time to come.
My brother spoke of the tent cities for those evacuated from schools - but when we rode through the grounds of Monmouth race track, last week "home" to thousands - they were gone. Where to? Of course some of these homes are summer homes to some, but the little homes and businesses? Where can they go? What can they do? When was the last time you saw a report or an article on the aftermath of Sandy?
I appreciated the article on the difference between Protagonist and Main Character, Barb.
"The difference between the two is simple: The Main Character represents the audience’s eyes into the story, the Protagonist pursues the goal of the story...
the character who is driven to Pursue the Goal is the Protagonist."
If accepting this difference, I would conclude that Bilbo is the main character, but not the protagonist. The next question - who was the protagonist? Does there have to be one? :D Was it Thorin?
Marcie, as I was reading an article in the US Today Weekend magazine on the way home yesterday. It was mainly an article on the British actor who plays Bilbo... He says he hadn't read The Hobbit until he heard he might play the part - "I was suprised by the tone of it. I didn't think it would be as humorous as it was. I thought it might take intself a bit too seriously."
I thought that was promising. He gets it! I might want to see the movie after all - just to see his portrayal of Bilbo. He is quoted in the article -
"No real-life hero ever thinks he's heroic. Bilbo finds himself in situations where, either for himself or his comrades, he has to act. That's real heroism."
last minute details this morning - still need to run down to Fed EX - I wonder also where they all went - with Katrina we were all taking them in our homes - some for months both Here in Texas and in Northern Louisiana - many stayed so that we have all sorts of influence now in Austin as they brought with them their music adding to ours and their special foods - in summer there are these impromptu ice cream type stands - I have not tried it yet but there is an ice cream and a drink that folks from New Orleans included in their life.
As to the protagonist - I think we would have to decide what was the goal - re-reading chapter one Thorin had his goal all set - Bilbo was a come along but then behind the enterprise you had the feeling it was Gandalf running the show... Next time I check in the discussion will be over but I am anxious to see who y'all decide in the protagonist of this story...
"...had the feeling it was Gandalf running the show"
Of course he was, Barbara. What was Gandalf's role? Was he in fact the protagonist then?
He was right there with Bilbo from beginning to end every step of the way. Not interested in treasure. Refused to take any Turned down the buried gold and silver, telling Bilbo he would probably find a use for it... which we now learn, he did. Maybe we have to read on into the Lord of the Rings to learn what motivates the wizard?
What a contrast between the elves warm and joyful welcome...and Bilbo's own welcome back to the place he was born and bred. They thought he had died, he's been gone for a year. "Not everybody that said so was sorry to find the presumption wrong."
It was GREED again, wasn't it? Bilbo knows what Greed can do. This isn't too much of a surprise to him. He has learned that during the past year.
Aren't there story lines where the protagonist pursuing the goal is also the one
telling the story? And in "The Hobbit", what do you think is 'the goal'? I note that
BARB asks the same question. Many of the characters have their particular goal. But what is the author's goal?
And now, home at last! Reputation in tatters, of course. And declared dead, with relatives and neighbors coming to buy everything he owned, and the Sackville-Baggins happily making plans to move into his nice home. Upset everyone terribly by Bilbo's return.
And how must these old neighbors now appear to Bilbo, after all he has seen
and done? I can see that they no longer have as much in common. Their attitude
is certainly narrow and unfriendly...except for the children, who are enthralled.
On the whole, I find it reasonable that Bilbo would be quite content with the
comforts of his home, and the inquisitive children, and the occasional visitor.
I'm still thinking about whether I agree with the alternative definition of protagonist presented in the article but, whatever we call those characters, I do think it's interesting to figure out the goal of this story and the roles that the characters played in bringing about the goal or trying to prevent it from happening.
I am not certain,but I think Tolkien's goals for The Hobbit might have changed when he decided it was "only" a prequel to TLOTR.
I read Pat Murphy's There and Back Again. Will there be discussion?
"And now, home at last! Reputation in tatters, of course."
So true, Babi...this is not the hobbit we met before the adventure - afraid to turn away anyone from his door at any hour...respectable, predictable. He dresses more flamboyantly, now-look at those gold buttons, his bejeweled belt! He fraternizes with elves, writes songs and poetry too. His old neighbors call him "queer." Is this what Gandalf meant when he told him "Something is the matter with you. You are not the same hobbit that you were?"
I thought he had changed when he obviously didn't care what neighbors thought... His new- found confidence. Prefers to entertain elves! And that ring! He still has it in his pocket - even uses it to avoid unwanted guests!
An interesting question, Lorac. Is this the ring of the title Lord of the Ring, do you think? ? Will Bilbo be a main character in the upcoming trilogy?
I was surprised to see this drawing by the author himself at the end of this chapter in the annotated edition.
(http://corecanvas.s3.amazonaws.com/theonering-0188db0e/gallery/original/jrrt_30.jpg)
The picture surprises me too, Joan, although I like it. Somehow I saw Bilbo's hobbit hole with a lower ceiling and more stuffed with furnishing and things.... more cozy. And we talked before about this fellow not looking very hobbit like.
Well he does have those hobbit feet...
Under the drawing, there's an observation by some Tolkien enthusiasts on the discrepancy between the relative proportions of Bilbo and the door, which I found amusing:
"As drawn the hobbit would have had to stand on a chair to reach the knob."
It is a much grander hall than I had imagined too.
Oh, thanks for mentioning the Pat Murphy book, LORAC. I knew "There and Back Again" only as the subtitle of "The Hobbit". I was definitely getting confused about a possible new discussion.
I was glad to see the drawing, JOANP, as it explains how big people like Gandalf
could come in. But it does seem very strange that a small hobbit would want such
a huge place. I also noticed that he could barely reach to latch his door and would
need a ladder to wind his clock.
We close, appropriately, with a return visit from Gandolf. Who presents Tolkiens young readers with their final lesson: "You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in wide world after all!"
To which Bilbo cheerfully replies, "Thank goodness!"
Babi, I had overlooked the fact that human-sized Gandalf had no trouble in the hobbit house. I wonder if hobbits had many "tall" visitors.
The ending does provide a broader perspective on things.
Remember Bilbo hosted 13 dwarves along with Gandalf in this hole at the beginning of the story. :D
I started the final chapter hoping to find the answers to two questions. What made Gandalf think that Bilbo would be helpful to the dwarves' cause? And then the question about the ring - how did Bilbo come into its possession - and what will he do with it back at the Shire? Neither of these questions were addressed in the last chapter - but I have an Appendix in the Annotated Edition - Appendix A written by Tolkien containing the article, "The Quest of Erebor," subtitled,
"Gandalf's account of how he came to arrange the expedition to Erebor and send Bilbo with the Dwarves."
The appendix follows chapter 19. If your copy doesn't have it, I'd be glad to share what I learned.
Joan P
Interesting.
We both quoted what Peter Jackson said (My post #284. yours # 295) with different perspectives.
Fascinating that we all read this same article and story or book and see totally different things.
More so in this story than any of the others I have followed with this site for the last three or four years.
I asked myself why is this so?
Of course there is no one definitive answers but these are some possibilities.
1) Attitudes toward Science Fiction.
2) Attitudes towards Children's Literature.
3)Personal experience with the world of Elves , Hobbits, Dwarves and Dragons.
Anyone want to add other reasons?
Sorry I didn't complete The Hobbit with all of you. I hope it's still possible to read the discussion in the archives. Congrats to all of you who made the whole journey. :)
Lorac and Babi--"Are we going to discuss Pat Murphy's There and Back Again"? That depends on what anyone wants. I had suggested that it might be rewarding to read this light-hearted science fiction take-off right after reading the original. It wouldn't merit a long, detailed discussion like this, but we could do a short discussion, say a week or two, in any format people would like. It could wait until January if everyone is getting too tied up in the holidays. It's real science fiction, stands on its own if you haven't read The Hobbit. So would anyone like to do it? I'm open to suggestions as to timing and length. I'm guessing this would interest only 3 or 4 people at most, but that's enough for something short.
My post 202 in this discussion gives details of how to get the book.
Catching up on all the email that piles up when you travel - and this was in the pile that I thought was perfect as an explanation of the Hobbit -
TRAINING WITH UNCERTAINTY
Many of us prefer practices that will not cause discomfort, yet at the same time we want to be healed. A warrior accepts that we can never know what will happen to us next. We can try to control the uncontrollable by looking for security and predictability, always hoping to be comfortable and safe. But the truth is that we can never avoid uncertainty. This not knowing is part of the adventure, and it’s also what makes us afraid.
Jude, could you say a bit more about the different perspectives? I didn't see you and JoanP so far apart in your posts about Bilbo's "heroism." I do, though, see some very different perspectives here on the book.
To your list I would add:
Fascinating that we all read this same article and story or book and see totally different things.
More so in this story than any of the others I have followed with this site for the last three or four years.
I asked myself why is this so?
Of course there is no one definitive answers but these are some possibilities.
1) Attitudes toward Science Fiction.
2) Attitudes towards Children's Literature.
3)Personal experience with the world of Elves , Hobbits, Dwarves and Dragons.
Anyone want to add other reasons?
-- different perspectives on morality
-- different experiences with the spectrum of literal to figurative language
-- different views on religion
-- and, to pick up from Barbara's last post, different comfort levels with the idea of uncertainty
Pat, I just recently got the book THERE AND BACK AGAIN, and I'd love to talk about it. I've just started it.
Marcie
Thanks for adding the extra categories.
Thought of them but didn't want to overspeak my peice.
But this is another peice of paper I am writing on, now. So I will add:
1)What constitutes a good book...
2)Do Dragons exist or are they symbols of Evil or of What We Fear..
3) As children, what did we learn about sharing....
4)What we think of the use of invisibility.
Please feel free to add comments or opposing views or simply add to the list.
You have me thinking and the differences in how we read and interpret a book that comes up for me is our different life experiences and what we value - some can even share similar life experiences but value different moral choices and behavior as well as, we can innately value different ways of expressing life from music and poetry to heroic action and so we pick up different aspects of a story that shed light on what we value. I also think a good piece of literature has many layers so that we can enjoy and notice the story line from its action to its philosophical messages. That is why I think our discussions are so rich - we bring our different life experiences and values to our read and then to the discussion.
By all means, JOANP. I would love to know what Tolkien wrote about it.
Oh, JUDE. Do tell me about any 'personal experiences' with elves, etc. That one
had never occurred to me! I would be delighted to hear all about it. And then, from
your next post, I think every child who ever read about 'invisibility' was enthralled
with the idea. Such fun to imagine what we could do if we could slip about unseen.
January would be a great time for the Pat Murphy book, PAT. With my daughters help,
surely I can locate a copy by then. I definitely want to read the book.
I think BARB has summed up the question quite accurately. The differences in how
we perceive a book comes from our own experiences and our own values, and the
person we have become because of them.
JoanP, yes, please do share some of the appendix with us!
At the end of the book, Bilbo says to Gandalf:
“Then the prophesies of the old songs have turned out to be true, after a fashion?”
“Of course!” said Gandalf. “And why should not they prove true? Surely you don’t disbelieve the prophesies, because you had a hand in bringing them about yourself? You don’t really suppose, do you, that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck, just for your own benefit?”
This sort of summarizes my take on the nature of Bilbo’s quest. It’s not really about him, he’s sort of an instrument of fate.
There is too much luck and coincidence for it to be really accidental. The clues are meant to be deciphered, and people are meant to be in the right place at the right time. It’s a little push to make success more likely.
Tolkien, in what he said was the most important passage in LOTR, said that the wheel of the world was turned by the small hand because the greater was looking elsewhere, and this is what Bilbo is doing in his small way.
“Roads go ever, ever on” and Bilbo has gone on with the road for a way, then stepped off to a safe haven, leaving the road to others. He has grown in the process, as maybe all of us do when we manage to do what’s needed.
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
The Hobbit: Book & Film
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hobbit/hobbitcover.jpg) | The Hobbit turns 75 this fall, an occasion likely to cause many thousands of people to reflect with fondness on their childhood memories of the adventures of Bilbo Baggins.
Though a much loved and widely respected children’s book, this work is too often overlooked by adults who relegate it to the nursery bookshelf. "The Hobbit is a brilliantly constructed story unfolding themes that adult readers will still find compellingly relevant to the modern world: themes such as the nature of evil and the significance of human choice, or the corruptive power of greed and the ease with which good people can be drawn into destructive conflict." Corey Olsen is an Assistant Professor of English at Washington College in Maryland
Bilbo Baggins begins as a cautious and conservative hobbit, well respected and considered a pillar of the hobbit community. When he reluctantly sets out on a quest to recover the stolen treasure of a band of dwarves, he encounters dangers of all descriptions. His adventures, which figure prominently in a prophecy of the dwbarves, are like stepping stones on the inner journey Bilbo must take to find his courage. Bilbo faces trials which again and again force him to look deep inside himself for the strength and resourcefulness he needs to complete the task expected of him. |
Discussion Schedule
| Ch 19 and overall |
Dec 10-13 | Now Discussing |
Book & Film |
Dec 14-17 |
Questions for Consideration
To notice for the whole book:
Tolkien incorporated many elements of myth, legend, and fairy tale. What ones do you see? Are they effective?
The story takes place in Middle Earth. Is this our world? How is it the same or different?
The Hobbit is a prelude to The Lord of the Rings. If you are familiar with LOTR, notice which elements are present here, and what differences there are.
What different races of creatures do we meet? What is each like?
What was Bilbo's quest?
Who changed during the story?
There seems to be a lot of luck and coincidence in this story. Is it really luck? If not, what is it?
Let's also talk about adaptations of the book, including the 2012 film, The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey, directed by Peter Jackson.
Chapter 19.
1. As he returns home, how do the other hobbits respond to Bilbo?
2. Does Bilbo see himself differently? What's important to him?
Discussion Leaders: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net ); Marcie (marciei@aol.com), Babi (pmg371@aol.com), Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com )
"This sort of summarizes my take on the nature of Bilbo’s quest. It’s not really about him, he’s sort of an instrument of fate."
"...the wheel of the world was turned by the small hand because the greater was looking elsewhere, and this is what Bilbo is doing in his small way."
Exactly! Well put, PatH! In the Appendix, Tolkien expresses much the same idea regarding Bilbo's role in the tale - I'll try to be brief in summing up. Those with the appendix, please feel free to fill in gaps.
The title of Tolkien's appendix A: "Gandalf's account of how he came to arrange the expedition to Erebor and send Bilbo with the Dwarves."
Thorin was in a growing rage, wanting vengeance on the Dragon. He met Gandalf on the road and invited him to his home, seeking counsel. Gandalf had bigger concerns on his mind, mainly that Sauron had risen again and was about to declare a great war. He tells Thorin "there is s Shadow growing fast in the world." He tells him Sauron and Smaug will work together. It would be advantageous to put down Smaug before the war begins. Gandalf hadn't thought of enlisting Smaug's enemies, the dwarves before this. He had difficulty convincing Thorin that he would need more than his band of dwarves against Smaug...he'd need something unexpected.
Gandalf's plan is one of STEALTH. Dwarves are not good at this. He says he is going to suggest an absurd solution to the problem. "Take a hobbit with you."
It wasn't Gandalf's intention to paint the hobbit as a thief, a burglar, but rather one capable of "professional stealth." Thorin continued to think of the hobbit as a burglar, though Bilbo had never stolen anything.
Why did Gandalf select Bilbo? It seems that years before, Gandalf spent time with the Shire-folk...knew and liked Bilbo before his comng of age. In selecting one hobbit out of all he knew, he preferred one with "a dash of Took" - knew that Bilbo was unattached...thought that was odd, though he guessed why it was. "He had been left very well off and was his own master." But Gandalf guessed the real reason - "he wanted to remain unattached for some reason deep down, which he himself did not understand. He wanted to be free to go when the chance came, or he had made up his courage.
More difficult to convince Thorin to bring the hobbit...Gandalf stresses a hobbit's courage, shrewdness. Convinces him that a hobbit really desires to have an adventure.
Thorin remain unconvinced. Gandalf leaves him with what I took as a threat...
"Curb your pride and your greed...I do not give my love or my trust lightly, Thorin, but I am fond of this hobbit, and I wish him well. Treat him well and you have my friendship to the end of your day."
Thank you, Pat and Joan. Those explanations help alot. I like the idea of Bilbo being "unexpected." He's never gone on an adventure before. You never know what he'll do. The enemy (whoever they are) won't predict his moves either. It's like some kind of "random" chance in the universe.
I'm sensing an even deeper meaning here. Maybe there is more than random luck here. Gandalf isn't certain his plan to combat the growing force of evil in the world will succeed either - but is counting on this little hobbit -
Although Bilbo has tendencies to live a rather self- centered life, Gandalf is ready to come to his aid when it is needed - when luck seems to fail.
He didn't just enlist the hobbit with a promise of a small fortune...and then leave him to fate.
marcie your commenting on random and was it Pat who brought up Luck - both are in keeping with the Asian, especially Chinese philosophy - certainly explains many things we keep trying to show as cause and effect and then today we could apply the Chaos theory which is still an attempt at cause and effect - found this great site listing the various patterns of organization with a brief explanation of each http://faculty.washington.edu/ezent/impo.htm
Thank you so much!, JOAN. Just substituting 'professional stealth' for 'burglar'
made the choice more understandable. Gandalf knew hobbits, and believed them to
be 'shrewd'. The hobbit 'courage' was somewhat questionable in general, but he
was thinking specifically of the 'dash of Took'.
A threat? Implied, I think, yes. To say "Treat him well and you have my friendship"
does rather suggest the alternative if Bilbo was not treated well. This has been so
helpful.
The movie critics have spoken, and they don't like it. Summarizing from the Washington Post and the New York Times, it's too long, too flashy, too ponderous, too overblown, not lighthearted enough. It does have some good scenes, especially Bilbo's encounter with Gollum. And the actor who plays Bilbo is very good.
How do they pad it out? Partly with a lot of backstory, but I don't know the details. This installment takes almost three hours, and gets them just a tad beyond being rescued from the forest by the eagles.
I mean to see it anyway--it will have enough good bits in it to make it worth my while--but maybe I'll wait a few days until I go to the west coast. My SIL wants to see it with me, and that way I won't see it twice.
too ponderous, too overblown, not lighthearted enough that is what I thought of the Trilogy done by Jackson - it is difficult to read any longer with the llighthearted feel of elves and dwarfs and their merry red hats that was the stuff of story time many a young child for several decades. Also I read the Trilogy and missed reading the Hobbit but when I read it was still easy to see the story as an interior versus exterior values story. Now it is good and bad simplifying all morality.
Three hours just to get to the eagle rescue? Yes, I would say that is way too long.
Are the next two films in the trilogy to be that long? Why didn't they just make
it a 9-week TV series and be done with it?
The only way I could watch this is to get it on tape and break up the viewing sessions.
Which, of course, means I won't be seeing it any time soon.
I read the same review in the Washington Post that you did, PatH. And another that commented on the length, not lighthearted enough...for a kid. But I read comments too - on the fact that the film stayed true to the book. Interesting...perked up when I read that.
Pat, did the woman in your book group go in costume? I'm curious if many did...Not seeing photos of the crowd, just photos of Bilbo Baggins...
She wasn't in costume at the meeting, but we finished around 9:30, so she had time to change. They were going to the Uptown, so it was only a short way farther down Connecticut Ave.
In LOTR, Jackson stayed quite true to the books, though he had to cut a lot. And he did a terrific job of showing some things that I would have thought were impossible to make visual. So I'm hoping there will be plenty of worthwhile stuff among the padding. The Post reviewer complained that Jackson moved characters in from other books, specifically mentioning the Wizard Radagast. Radagast does sort of appear in The Hobbit. When Gandalf and Bilbo meet Beorn, Gandalf explains who he is by mentioning his cousin "Radagast, who lives near the Southern borders of Mirkwood". Beorn knows Radagast, "not a bad fellow, as wizards go". You wouldn't even notice him except he appears later in LOTR. I guess we'll get this unnecessary bit of backstory.
It's interesting to read all of the critic's reviews and then read the comments from people who have seen the movie. It seems that most people who respond to the critics enjoyed it. For example see, http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/reviews/ios-film-review-the-hobbit-8420225.html
I can sympathize with those remarks, MARCIE. I don't pay too much attention to
professional critics. It often seems to me they are more invested in demonstrating how
clever they are, and how superior to the common viewer. They seem to prefer the more
pretentious and vulgar offerings. There was one critic I would read, simply because
we knew that anything he panned we would like. ;)
More contrasting opinions, Babi - Critic and reader reviews...
From the Washington Post's Ann Horaday:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/gog/movies/the-hobbit-an-unexpected-journey,1209344/critic-review.html
Reader reviews:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/gog/movies/the-hobbit-an-unexpected-journey,1209344/reader-reviews.html
There was one critic I would read, simply because we knew that anything he panned we would like. ;)
LOL, Babi!
Joan, Thanks for the links to that Washington Post review and the responses. It looks like there are as many reactions to the film as there are viewers.
I know but I think that those of us who have just read the book will appreciate the details more than those who have never read it - or read it years ago.
I definitely agree, Joan.
I saw the movie, but now it's midnight. More tomorrow.
Can't wait to hear about your impressions, Pat! I saw last night that it is the #1 box office attraction of the season.
Yes, I'm eager to hear what you think, Pat....whenever you have time.
I apologise for the delay, but here's my take on the movie, which I saw with my SIL.
The bottom line is that if you want it to be like the book, you will be disappointed, but there is a lot to like.
First, the technical stuff: SIL's professional opinion--the direction was superb, the movie should have been cut by 20 minutes or more to remove irrelevant bits, and the action was way over the top. We saw it in 3D, which I have been avoiding because my eyes don't always track together. I was pleasantly surprised to find that it worked perfectly well for me. However, I don't think it adds much to the viewing experience.
Martin Freeman, who plays Bilbo, doesn't look quite like we imagine him, too thin for one, but he's very good in the part. Sir Ian McKellen does his usual good job as Gandalf, and Andy Serkis' Gollum is great--similar to LOTR, but maybe a bit more vulnerable. Thorin Oakenshield (Richard Armitage) is pictured as fiercely vengeful against the goblins, especially the one he thought he'd killed. He isn't the way I'd pictured him, but he does a good job.
The biggest flaw in the movie is the way they've beefed up the action. Battle scenes are too long, too gigantic, and too improbable. They've added some, too. The movie opens with a prologue showing how the dwarves lost their home and treasure under the mountain, including a gigantic battle with goblins. There is a long stretch involving the wizard Radagast (who is barely mentioned in the book) discovering evidence of the Necromancer and warning Gandalf, ending with an extra battle with wargs and a very improbable chase. Maybe this is going to go somewhere in the next two movies, but it's pointless here. The stone giants aren't just throwing rocks in the distance, they are the mountains, and our heroes are left standing on a small plateau just big enough to hold them. And so on and on. I shudder to think what the battle of the five armies is going to be like.
That said, when the movie sticks to the story there are many scenes which are fun, where you do get the feel of the book. It's worth seeing for those, even if big fights aren't your cup of tea.
My grands took their Dad and his biggest grrr was they never even got to the mountain - that is when the boys knew the Hobbit will be made as a 3 part trilogy.
One of my complaints about Jackson's treatment of LOTR was that he tended to blunt or trivialize the moral choices made by the characters, and he does that a bit here too. For instance, it isn't clear why Frodo doesn't kill Gollum, but instead jumps over him to escape. The riddle scene with Gollum is excellent, though.
The movie ends right after the eagles have rescued them from the wargs (very dramatic--they are plucked out of the air as they are falling out of the burning tree, which is hanging over a cliff). They are left standing on a hilltop, gazing at the mountain in the far distance.
Thanks very much, Pat, for your detailed information about the film. It sounds like it's definitely worth seeing.
Yes, worth seeing in spite of my complaints. The photography is gorgeous too.
Here's something for those who ended up having enough of hobbits and their ilk; I ran across it in the Dec. 9 New York Times:
The road goes ever on and on
And on and on, and on and on,
Hobbits and wizards and orcs and elves
Fill the books that strain the shelves.
One could be buried by tales as these
If not by the appendices.
Oh, I still love the little Hobbit. I just figure it's time to ignore all the argument about the film. My daughters saw it
yesterday and gave it a thumbs up. I'll order it when it's available on Netflix. Maybe even wait until all three parts are
available in a set! Save the long (?) wait in between.
The other two are in post-production, but won't be released until Dec. '13 and July '14. Grrr.
Yes, I still love the little hobbit too.
LOL, that's a good verse, Pat, from the NY Times.
Six months between the second and third film?! Shucks, I could die before then,
and never see #3. (Never mind pointing out the same applies to #2.) ::)