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Archives & Readers' Guides => Archives of Book Discussions => Topic started by: BooksAdmin on November 11, 2012, 08:55:45 PM

Title: Hobbit, The by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: BooksAdmin on November 11, 2012, 08:55:45 PM
 
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

 November Book Club Online
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hobbit/hobbitcover.jpg)
 The Hobbit turns 75 this fall, an occasion likely to cause many thousands of people to reflect with fondness on their childhood memories of the adventures of Bilbo Baggins.

Though a much loved and widely respected children’s book, this work is too often overlooked by adults who relegate it to the nursery bookshelf.  "The Hobbit is a brilliantly constructed story unfolding themes that adult readers will still find compellingly relevant to the modern world: themes such as the nature of evil and the significance of human choice, or the corruptive power of greed and the ease with which good people can be drawn into destructive conflict." Corey Olsen is an Assistant Professor of English at Washington College in Maryland

 Bilbo Baggins begins as a cautious and conservative hobbit, well respected and considered a pillar of the hobbit community. When he reluctantly sets out on a quest to recover the stolen treasure of a band of dwarves, he encounters dangers of all descriptions. His adventures, which figure prominently in a prophecy of the dwbarves, are like stepping stones on the inner journey Biblo must take to find his courage. Bilbo faces trials which again and again force him to look deep inside himself for the strength and resourcefulness he needs to complete the task expected of him.
Discussion Schedule
 
Ch 1 - 3 Nov 12-16
Ch 4 - 6 Nov 17-21 Now Discussing
Ch 7 - 8 Nov 22-26
Ch 9 - 12 Nov 27-Dec 1
Ch 13 - 15 Dec 2-5
Ch 16 - 18 Dec 6-9
Ch 19 and overall Dec 10-13

Questions for Consideration

To notice for the whole book:

Tolkien incorporated many elements of myth, legend, and fairy tale.  What ones do you see?  Are they effective?

The story takes place in Middle Earth.  Is this our world?  How is it the same or different?

The Hobbit is a prelude to The Lord of the Rings.  If you are familiar with LOTR, notice which elements are present here, and what differences there are.

What different races of creatures do we meet?  What is each like?

Chapter 1.

What is a Hobbit?

Why might Gandalf want to add Bilbo to the dwarves' expedition?

Chapter 2.

Trolls are big and scary.  What device does Tolkien use to make them less so for his younger readers?

Chapter 3.

Who is Elrond?

The swords that Gandalf and Thorin took from the trolls' horde are given names.  Why is this important?

Is it unbelievable luck that Elrond sees the moon letters on the only day they can be read?

The book is studded with little songs.  Do you like them?  Do they add something?

 
Discussion Leaders:    PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net ); Marcie (marciei@aol.com), Babi (pmg371@aol.com), Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com )
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 11, 2012, 09:20:54 PM
At last, we can get down to business.  There's more to the book than just a simple children's story, isn't there.  What's your reaction to it?  What strikes you most strongly?  Let's start down the Road.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 12, 2012, 03:53:57 AM
Till Later - just putting my things down to save a chair  ;)
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on November 12, 2012, 07:46:05 AM
Will be back this afternoon
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 12, 2012, 08:34:26 AM
I'm a morning person - by afternoon I'm starting to panic about all of the things I've not accomplished on my to-do list...
So will probably be in early each day.  There are so many things I look forward to hearing about from you -

I asked my granddaugher, who is 11 and her brother who is 8 if they ever read The Hobbit.  They both said they heard about the movie, but not the book.

Quote
"There's more to the book than just a simple children's story, isn't there?"


Pat, I do agree with you. But will be reading the book to see what it is that would appeal to today's children too. I read that Tolkien intended to write this story to amuse his own children.  Would it be a good gift for my grandchildren -  who both loved Harry Potter?  Do children read "The Hobbit" today - or is it primarily considered a book for  BIG PEOPLE now?  As I read the book, I'm going to try to read the story with the eyes and sensibilities of a child.  

But oh, didn't you stop in your tracks at Tolkien's definition of a "respectable" adult...who "never had any adventures or did anything unexpected."  Is that how children see us?  Do they have any way of knowing that we have something "queer" in our make-up that just cannot come to terms with an adventureless future?  I'm really looking forward to hearing how you feel about this?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: majic on November 12, 2012, 08:43:06 AM
Yes, Pat the kids will enjoy it in my opinion, but of course my opinion is that of "an adult". I did read the Harry Potter series and like those books these advance by age with volume. If they read these at the ages you say they are, then move on into the LOTR series, they will find tales also grown with a degree of sophistication as they continue to read on.
I find them all much like Gulliver's Travels or Alice in Wonderland in that there is plenty of extra meaning that one gets out of them when reading past childhood.
I'M SO EXCITED TO GET STARTED!!!
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 12, 2012, 08:59:24 AM
Couldn't help ruminate on the idea as we age we are all Hobbits - there is the one of us that we see in the mirror all wispy and white and then this other one that we know much better that we think we are who we have known since childhood and who may have aged but only to middle age.

And yes, without Mr Anderson even making the suggestion the first bit of description reminded me of the hidey-hoes in Wind in the Willows.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 12, 2012, 09:37:57 AM
 Terrific start, PAT.  We have so much to think about here. The genius it must take to write
a book that simultaneously amuses a child and fascinates an adult.

 Oh, where to begin! I can remember the first time I read it,  I was somewhat disappointed to
discover the 'hero'  was a pudgy half-pint with furry feet!  Not to mention the horror of
fourteen uninvited guests dropping in for tea...and supper...and an overnight stay with breakfast the next morning!   This time, tho',  I am prepared and enjoying every minute of it!

 Tolkien does such a terrific job of describing everything.  I have a vivid picture of Bilbo and
his cozy  little burrow.  I would have loved to visit there, tho' I imagine the furniture would be a bit small for me.  Which does make me wonder how Gandalf managed.  But then, he's a wizard, isn't he?   ;D
 
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 12, 2012, 12:52:48 PM
JoanP, I'm guessing that your 8 year old grandchild would like The Hobbit, but the 11 year old might be in the stage of being very careful not to do or read anything "childish", in which case the phrases aimed at young children will put him/her off.

Barb, good way of putting our double nature.  Bilbo's double nature is explained away by heredity: the respectable Baggins and the less respectable Took.  The Baggins side is very much in control at the start.  He even faints at the thought of a dangerous venture, and the next morning he he is firmly resolved not to go.  Yet he does go, almost as if by accident.  Why?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JudeS on November 12, 2012, 03:59:05 PM
Pat
Why does Bilbo go? you ask.
The simple answer is that every odyssey begins with the hero "going" away. There is no adventure book without  removal from safe and secure circumstances of home into the unknown.

If you wish an analysis of Bilbo's personality as to why he went- well I can't analyze him as yet since it is too early in the game. However the Elves are awaiting him. He is the "chosen" Hobbit. How flattering and exciting is that even for a rather sedentary 50 year old Hobbit who likes his creature comforts.
 Would we really want to read about "The Hobbit Who Stayed Home"?
I doubt it.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: hats on November 12, 2012, 05:26:57 PM
No JudeS, a Hobbit who goes on an adventure is far more exciting to me. A Hobbit doesn't usually like adventures. Why not? Were they highly anxious, afraid of thunder and the crack of a twig? Or is it because you don't like what you haven't experienced? Along the way I'm trying to figure out my true feelings about going on adventures. Am I brave and foolhardy or a bit of a fraidy cat?

The Hobbit's door is round instead of rectangular. Is there a reason for the circular shape?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on November 12, 2012, 05:55:06 PM
The Hobbit DOES go. To me, that is very life-affirming -- even those stick-in-the-muds like me who never do anything daring can feel a light of something else in there. that sense of the world being an adventure that we had as children doesn't completely die.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on November 12, 2012, 06:03:59 PM
I've tried to read the Hobbit several times and always gave up. It was the flood of names and geneologies that got me. Even the objects have names! For someone like me, who struggles to remember names, it seemed like an impossible struggle.

i've decided to read it differently. What I didn't see was the music of his writing. Tolkein is someone who clearly loves the sound of words. Making up names for him is like making up tunes for a musician.

I love the flow of his words. I've decided  to treat the names as part of the music, and let them flow over me. And If I get lost because I can't remember who anyone is, I have you all to lead me back on the road.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 12, 2012, 06:12:37 PM
What a great idea JoanK - to see the music in the words - I am almost wishing I had another copy of the book without all the annotations so I could read it through with the eyes of a child - may break down and get another copy.

I think we are all on an adventure - our life is an adventure - that to me is the definition of Hope - Hope is in the unknown - we hang onto Faith like a climbing rope or a buoy tied to a rope at sea while we deal with the adventure/Hope.

I do not think we love the unknown - we love what makes us feel safe, secure - what is understandable and so that says to me we love the rope that offers us that safety if we will only grab hold and we are trusting where the rope is attached which we believe to be attached to a secure location.

Round like the Round Table or the Wheel of Time - inside the house to me is how I see our interior selves and once we go through the door we are aware of our outer being in time and place. The 'chosen' one is so close to our Judea-Christian mythology - we have many who are chosen in the Bible.

Interesting we have round doors and later we know there is a ring that is featured in the story, also round.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on November 12, 2012, 07:03:37 PM
Apparently, others have noticed the similiarity of the hobbit's house to "the Wind in the Willows" Tolkien was a great admirer of "the Wind" and corresponded with the author's son. (I've lost y site).

But it looks like Bilbo's adventures will be quite different from those of rat and mole.And "the Wind" is really about the river (and the land). The land couldn't be more different so far in Hobbit: threatening and dangerous, with no sign of the river of life.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: salan on November 12, 2012, 07:47:45 PM
I am wondering if I am reading the correct book.  The front of the book says The Hobbit.  The next page says, The Hobbit, There and Back Again.  The first chapter is An Unexpected Party, the 2nd is Roast Mutton and the 3rd is A Short Rest.  Is this the book we are reading?
Sally
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 12, 2012, 08:46:15 PM
Yes, Sally, that's it, and those are the three chapters we are starting with.  You're definitely on the right page.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 12, 2012, 09:09:17 PM
About keeping names straight: one thing you don't have to do is keep the dwarves straight.  You need to remember that Thorin Oakenshield is their leader, and that's it.  Most of the others aren't really described; some are, like Fili and Kili, the young hotheads, and Bombur, the fat comic, but you still don't need to remember who's who.

Hats, I like your question about the round door.  I hadn't thought about it before, but Tolkien had reasons for most things, and I bet there's one for that.  Some ideas have been suggested, maybe we'll think of more.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on November 13, 2012, 07:48:35 AM
Several things I noted while reading the first three chapters. I didn't remember Bilbo being around fifty. Elrond is of mixed race having elves and warriors (men?) in his ancestry. I confused Rivendell with the town occupied by men. Bilbo and company are still in the information gathering stage of their journey, at least up to the end of the third chapter.

Question: Is Elrond's house just a big house the group stayed at or is it an inn of some sort. It seems to me from the description that the house is used to entertaining guests often. It is set off a little way from the rest of the elvish town.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 13, 2012, 07:51:40 AM
How are you pronouncing Thorin's name when you read it?  Does it remind you of the god of thunder in Norse mythology - pronounced  "Tor"?  Did Tolkien have him in mind when naming this dwarf leader?  He is rather intimidating and doesn't seem to have much respect for our little hobbit, does he?  The question is still before us - what does Gandalf see in Bilbo Baggins  that others don't?  Do you understand yet why the wise wizard has chosen him?  Simply because of the Took ancestry?

Hats, an interesting question - about the round green door. Perhaps it is simply to underline the fact that a hobbit is part rabbit?  The round door leads to the "rabbit hole"?
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT1uLc1foGA1QICaqLPsmVGU_zv1wGLys1d4LCFtNwQJul0cIhf)

My granddaughter asked what a "hobbit" was...which led to a conversation that the word seems to be a combination of "hominum" - "man" and rabbit - which seems to describe our Bilbo Baggins...more a little man than rabbit, but a rabbit nonetheless.  Maybe that's why Gandalf things he'd make a good burglar...his ability to penetrate walls with rabbit holes, gaining access, undetected.  I can see the appeal for a child here.

Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 13, 2012, 08:09:52 AM
Good morning, Fry.  We're posting together in real time this morning.  Elrond is another interesting character - half "elf" and half hero" of the north in his ancestry. But it seems he's more "elf" - another little person...I'm seeing him now as a host, offering his hospitality in hopes that with Gandalf as their leader, the dwarves and little burglar will be able to put down the dreaded dragons that threaten.  To say nothing of the Goblins who eat anything that comes their way.  What do you think Tolkien has in mind with these divisions?

Jude, I can't analyse why Baggins left his cozy, comfortable home to go on this perilous adventure, but I can understand it on a personal level.  I don't like to admit that I'm incapable of any more adventure in my life.  No matter how comfortable I am now, if challenged, I wouldn't be able to refuse to face the fact that I'm over the hill.  I'd accept the challenge - even though I'd be scared to death that I wouldn't know what to do.  I'm enjoying watching BB accept each challenge as it comes his way...cheer him on.  Even when he seems to be doing nothing, he's thinking of the best course of action before jumping in over his head. This part of the story appeals to me - the BIG PERSON.  Not sure what grandson would think of him - used to more decisive action from his video game heroes...


 
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: hats on November 13, 2012, 08:39:08 AM
Thank you, PatH. I wanted to ask question badly. Thought it sounded silly to ask about the shape of the door. Thanks for taking the silly feeling away. Now I wonder about the color green. Green seems like a friendly color to me. Although many people relate the color green to jealousy. Why? So much in nature is green: grass, trees, leaves, stems, etc. Good morning all.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: hats on November 13, 2012, 08:43:41 AM
Hi JoanP,

Just started reading your comment about the rabbit hole. I'm smiling. Exciting, I never would have thought....This is going to be so much fun.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on November 13, 2012, 08:54:16 AM
Quote
Do you understand yet why the wise wizard has chosen him?

I don't know about understanding, but I can speculate. Bilbo has a strong sense of risk aversion, duty, and  honesty that keeps the adventurous spirit in him from succumbing to recklessness and greed. Also, since he hasn't been on any other adventures, Bilbo hasn't formed a particular mind set or attitude towards the "people" or places he encounters.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: hats on November 13, 2012, 09:43:53 AM
Hi Frybabe,

To me Bilbo seems like a person who appreciates the talents of other people. I should say dwarves. He also likes their songs, smoke rings and I think he likes the fact that they enjoy his meal so much. Bilbo is a good servant too IMO. I thought of what Barbara wrote about "songs and music." Can't wait to read what Barbara writes about the songs and music.

I did see the word "jealous." Don't quite understand the sentence in which it's used.
Quote
As they sang the hobbit felt the love of beautiful things made by hands and by cunning and by magic moving through him, a fierce and a jealous love, the desire of the hearts of dwarves.
Would Bilbo like to be a dwarf???
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 13, 2012, 09:53:12 AM
 We must bear in mind, tho', JUDE, that for a hobbit 50 years-old is just reaching maturity. I gather he was barely an adult!

 I hadn't thought of it that way, JOANK, but you are so right. Tolkien's writing is lyrical, and I find his songs a delight. Watch for the change in tempo between, say, the song of a hobbit or elf, and those of the goblins.

  As to why Gandalf chose Bilbo, so far I can only see that for some reason he  needed a hobbit, and the Took bloodline
was the only one that might be persuaded to go.  He started right in with stirring up the little hobbit, didn't he?   A simple 'good morning' and he's demanding to know what he means.  'Good morning' is plain enough for anyone, but Gandalf lists at least three different, tho' unlikely, possibilities.  I heartily approved Bilbo's  calm response, "All of them at once",  and adding, 'and a very fine morning for a pipe of tobacco out of doors, into the bargain". 

   Gandalf then announces that he is there to find someone to share an adventure, and finding it very
difficult.  Whereupon the Hobbit explains for us just how Hobbits regard  'adventure'.  "Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!"    Bilbo's naive idea of an adventure is anything that makes you late for dinner! 
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 13, 2012, 10:05:14 AM
Hats, I don't think Bilbo would want to be a dwarf, but the song makes him feel the mindset of the dwarves.  They love the beautiful things they make, and are jealous in that they don't like to share them.  And I think you are right that the green door is about the greenness of nature.

Bilbo has a strong sense of risk aversion, duty, and  honesty that keeps the adventurous spirit in him from succumbing to recklessness and greed.
I think that in part, Gandalf chose Bilbo to be an antidote to the greed which is the dwarves' biggest fault.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: hats on November 13, 2012, 10:06:26 AM
Babi, I liked the explanation about "good morning" too. After reading further I see that Gandalf thinks Bilbo will make a fierce warrior. I can't see that part of his personality at all especially after he lets out that big scream.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: hats on November 13, 2012, 10:08:05 AM
PatH, thank you. I couldn't understand what he meant. Now with your explanation I get it. Wow, that is a hard sentence for me. Thank you again, PatH. I reread your explanation again. I understand it now. Never would have gotten it.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on November 13, 2012, 10:18:02 AM
Quote
an antidote to the greed which is the dwarves' biggest fault.

Very good point, PatH: a counterpoint to the dwarves greed. I was looking inward while you took in the bigger picture.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 13, 2012, 05:11:52 PM
Quote
 "Bilbo's naive idea of an adventure is anything that makes you late for dinner!"

That's funny, Babi. I'm looking forward to comparing this naive little hobbit to the "fierce warrior" who returns from this adventure.  Not sure I believe this will happen...but Gandalf seems to believe it.

I remember reading that Tolkien wrote this for his two children - read it aloud to them. I'm not surprised that it sounds so rhythmic.  Will try reading it aloud myself. Not just the songs... Love the image of our Annie taking turns reading it aloud with her David.  I wonder too if Tolkien wrote it out loud...

One sad little observation got my attention -
Quote
"Not that Belladonna Took ever had any adventures after she became Mrs. Bungo Baggins."
Why do you suppose he wrote that? Do you think we'll ever know? It's as if she was a prisoner in a gilded cage...
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: hats on November 14, 2012, 02:33:44 AM
I can't imagine living in a gilded cage. Anyway, I want to thank all of you for having me. I got carried away posting yesterday. Didn't mean to hog the discussion, and worse yet with a lack of knowlege about Tolkien and novel. Felt excited to see you all again. Will come in now and then to read the posts. That's enough for me at this time. Glad you're all well. Please tell Ginny hello. Miss seeing Traude's name. Friends I will never forget.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 14, 2012, 03:13:45 AM
Please Hats be chatty - we love it - we are not on Twitter where we have to count our words - we are so pleased to see you post with us again - it is like old home week - this is a fun story with lots of imagery - I laugh and worry right along with the Hobbits don't you...
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: hats on November 14, 2012, 04:18:51 AM
Oh yes, I can see them with my mind's eye. Love the clothes worn by the dwarves. Didn't one have a blue beard?? Would love to know about Norway's mythology, Thorin's name. I'll bet it's a good story. Thanks Barb and all. I'll always remember when I first came here.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on November 14, 2012, 07:14:58 AM
Quote
"Not that Belladonna Took ever had any adventures after she became Mrs. Bungo Baggins."
Why do you suppose he wrote that? Do you think we'll ever know? It's as if she was a prisoner in a gilded cage...

JoanP, perhaps it is the notion that adventures are for the young and the single. After marriage, it's time to settle down. The Hobbit was first published in 1937. I think the notion that married women stay at home and be housewives still prevailed into the 50's.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 14, 2012, 08:24:24 AM
Don't disappear, hats, you're doing exactly what makes a good discussion.  One person asks a question, somebody knows the answer, and that starts people talking.  Not everyone knows all the answers, but we all know something and contribute.  As for not having read the book before, one thing I was hoping for was that people who hadn't read the book before would discover it and come to love it as I do.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 14, 2012, 09:22:33 AM
Frybabe, it's funny about women in Tolkien's stories.  There aren't any in The Hobbit, but there are plenty in The Lord of the Rings, and they are either totally domestic types or incredibly powerful--warriors, queens, leaders of their people.  There's nothing in between.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: hats on November 14, 2012, 09:42:49 AM
I would like to read LORD OF The RINGS by Tolkien with all of you, PATH. I have a copy of the book. It's a fat one. All of the volumes under one roof. Don't dare try it along. :-[
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 14, 2012, 09:49:19 AM
  I have to agree with you there, HATS. Bilbo as a 'fierce warrior' will be a major
change, indeed. He's such a gentle, retiring fellow.  I was enchanted by Tolkien's
description of the Dwarves music.  It must have been mesmerizing.  And then, that
bewitching song.  I have to think it played a part in awakening  the 'Took' part of
Bilbo's heritage.

 That was a somewhat sad observation, JOANP. Perhaps, tho', Belladonna had her great
adventure, and was quite ready to settle into the hobbit family life. I think Bilbo
is going to feel great relief when he at last returns to his own peaceful little home.

 PATH, I think you touched on something important when you posted that women in LOTR
were either "totally domestic or incredibly powerful".  I remember reading in one
commentary that Tolkien's creations were all of a specific type. All goblins were
alike, all dwarves, all wargs, etc. It begins to seem that only humans are variable,
widely differing individuals.

   Oho!  I have found myself a new and very appropriate phrase for those times of
frustration, and I plan to adopt it for my own use. "Confusticate and bebother..." 
whatever it is.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: majic on November 14, 2012, 09:53:47 AM
HATS
I'm so glad to hear you say that you're interested in reading LOTR with everyone!! I'm new here, but I was talking to a longtime member who most of you are unaware of (my mother). We were talking about how nice it would be if this lead into the reading of the other Tolkien books. She was trying to tell me to suggest it and now you have. Wonder what everyone else thinks about it?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 14, 2012, 10:58:01 AM

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

  November Book Club Online
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hobbit/hobbitcover.jpg)
  The Hobbit turns 75 this fall, an occasion likely to cause many thousands of people to reflect with fondness on their childhood memories of the adventures of Bilbo Baggins.

Though a much loved and widely respected children’s book, this work is too often overlooked by adults who relegate it to the nursery bookshelf.  "The Hobbit is a brilliantly constructed story unfolding themes that adult readers will still find compellingly relevant to the modern world: themes such as the nature of evil and the significance of human choice, or the corruptive power of greed and the ease with which good people can be drawn into destructive conflict." Corey Olsen is an Assistant Professor of English at Washington College in Maryland

 Bilbo Baggins begins as a cautious and conservative hobbit, well respected and considered a pillar of the hobbit community. When he reluctantly sets out on a quest to recover the stolen treasure of a band of dwarves, he encounters dangers of all descriptions. His adventures, which figure prominently in a prophecy of the dwbarves, are like stepping stones on the inner journey Biblo must take to find his courage. Bilbo faces trials which again and again force him to look deep inside himself for the strength and resourcefulness he needs to complete the task expected of him.
Discussion Schedule
 
Ch 1 - 3 Nov 12-16
Ch 4 - 6 Nov 17-21 Now Discussing
Ch 7 - 8 Nov 22-26
Ch 9 - 12 Nov 27-Dec 1
Ch 13 - 15 Dec 2-5
Ch 16 - 18 Dec 6-9
Ch 19 and overall Dec 10-13

Questions for Consideration

To notice for the whole book:

Tolkien incorporated many elements of myth, legend, and fairy tale.  What ones do you see?  Are they effective?

The story takes place in Middle Earth.  Is this our world?  How is it the same or different?

The Hobbit is a prelude to The Lord of the Rings.  If you are familiar with LOTR, notice which elements are present here, and what differences there are.

What different races of creatures do we meet?  What is each like?

Chapter 4.

1. Does the thought of setting out on an adventure appeal to you?   What different purposes motivate Gandalf, the dwarves, and Bilbo?
2. Apart from a child's entertainment, do you see other purposes as Tolkien develops his story?
3.  What features of human ingenuity does Tolkien attribute to Goblins?
4. Why do you think swords are approved and romanticised in our mythology?

Chapter 5.

1.  Ah, the key element, the mysterious ring that dominated "The Lord of the Ring" trilogy. One of it's powers we discover quickly;  do you find hints of other effects of the ring?
2.  Why does Bilbo agree to the riddle contest?   Is Tolkien ridiculing any aspect of society that you can think of?
3.  What change takes place in Bilbo regarding Gollum?  What does that say about Bilbo?

Chapter 6.
1.  Why does Bilbo choose to astonish his companions with a startling re-appearance?
  Can you relate to that?   What of his decision to keep the ring a secret...for a while?
2.  What new peril from the goblins do we learn of here?
3. What new species are introduced in this chapter?

 
Discussion Leaders:    PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net ); Marcie (marciei@aol.com), Babi (pmg371@aol.com), Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com )
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 14, 2012, 11:36:25 AM
Looking in the Archives, I see we discussed The Lord of the Rings back in 2001.  That was before my time, on the old site, and only two participants (Alf and Barb) are currently on this site.  So it's not impossible to do it again.  It would be a big deal, though.  LOTR is very long, very complicated, with a cast of thousands (maybe not literally, but there are a huge number of people to keep straight).  There is a background subtext of the history of Middle Earth which has to be kept in mind.  They didn't go into as much detail as we are doing here, and it was a lower-key discussion, but it took 6 1/2 months.

We'll have to see how much interest there is.  Participants drop out, especially in a long discussion, so we need enough to last.  And we need leaders willing to commit.  We should discuss it, here and out somewhere like the Library, and see how much interest there is.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: hats on November 14, 2012, 01:38:05 PM
61/2 months?? That's a long time. I wasn't here that far back.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 14, 2012, 03:19:32 PM
Since it is three books why not do a book at a time and see how it goes - I bet one book could be done in 6 weeks and then do a 2 month hiatus while other books could be read etc.

I could not help laugh aloud with all the Hobbits coming unexpectedly - it reminded me of this country and how some are very comfortable as things have been - thank you - and now we have all these immigrants who want their own choice of food, dress, language, religion etc. so that those who are comfortable worry if the nation's larder is big enough and if all the resources will be used up taking care of the new comers that were not expected or invited - 'build a fence and arm the citizenry, the hobbits are coming the hobbits are coming - They are seeking our pale and enchanted gold...

Sounds like we need another Woody Guthrie to wake up the Took inside us so we too feel a jealous love for this land.

Are we co-conspirators - are we excellent and audacious - if life is the journey then do we shriek at the thought - do we use our time as if bursting out like a whistle of an engine coming out of a tunnel - maybe some of us will be fierce as a dragon in a pinch - but golly, is the way we express our fierceness to charge others in battle...

Well for me I do know I made some choices in the late 80s that I still do not think I was a fool for making but the adventure has challenged me and there is many a time I doubt rather than believe, get scared rather than own any fierceness. I wonder how many of us walked into some life experiences that pushed us beyond what we imagined for ourselves.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on November 14, 2012, 03:40:45 PM
The Hobbit is so obviously a caracature, I've been wondering whether Tolkien had a particular person in mind that he was caracaturing.

here's a thought: usually, the main character i such a story is either a hero, or "everyman", someone the readers can identify with. Maybe, as Don Quixote is a characature of the hero, maybe Bilbo is a characature of everyman.

the reader is supposed to identify with "everyman". I can't imagine children doing so, but maybe their parents can.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 14, 2012, 04:03:54 PM
An interesting thought, JoanK.  I agree, we can relate to "everyman" which I think Bilbo represents...but you're right about a child, who is more self-centered.  Wouldn't a child put himself (herself) in Bilbo's shoes as he reads of his frightening adventures...with the man-eating Goblins, for example?

I'm enjoying the book as a first time reader too, Hats.  Though I did read Lord of the Rings a long, long time ago, I don't think I read the Hobbit.  Jumped right into the Trilogy.  I'm enjoying your reminders of the colors and the sounds. Yes, lots of green and yellow.  I see Bilbo is wearing a green cloak - weather-stained.  Sounds like camoflage to me.  Should come in handy for what lies ahead.

So Thorin is the leader - because the map to the treasured swords belonged to his father.  He has a personal interest in the expedition, but why would Bilbo risk his life - just to save face.  Did you notice his contract even includes funeral expenses?  He doesn't crave adventure.  Something about his mother's blood - the "Took" in him is calling?

Again, I really pity Belladonna Took and her adventureless life.  She is described as  having been a "lively" girl."  She lives in this huge house.  She had one son.  Bilbo is 51 years old, we're told. Babi, where did you learn that this isn't old for a hobbit?  He seems pretty set in his ways, a confirmed bachelor, no?  He isn't married, there is no grandchild for Belladonna to dote on.  What does she do with her time?  Maybe she should have gone on the adventure.  I hope she makes an appearance in the story and we can feel better about her.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 14, 2012, 05:25:40 PM
The contract includes funeral expenses if "the matter is not otherwise arranged for".  That means if Bilbo is eaten, or washed away in a river, or otherwise unrecoverable. :(

In chapter one, Bilbo is described as "grown up, being about fifty years or so", and their age span is talked about more in Lord of the Rings.  At the opening of LOTR we meet Bilbo again; he is 111 years old.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 15, 2012, 08:35:43 AM
We only have 2 more days on this section, so we ought to add chapters 2 and 3 to our conversation.

In chapter 2, Bilbo makes his first attempt at burglary.  How successful is he?  Does he have a lot to learn?

Chapter 3 marks a new stage, where they rest, acquire new information, and ready themselves for the real wilderness and danger to come.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 15, 2012, 09:09:33 AM
Quote
"Trolls are big and scary."
 
How big?  Compared to a dwarf, say?  They're described as having heavy faces...and distinguished by the shape of their legs...though I can't imagine what those look like.  We're told that they are mostly distinguished by their language.  Does that refer to the talk about not having eaten any manflesh for a long time?  That would frighten a child...and a comparatively small hobbit too, I imagine.

 
Quote
  What device does Tolkien use to make them less so for his younger readers?


Thinking about this question...from a child's point of view now, I think that Tolkien showed that while the dwarves were intimidating, they did have a heart - Though Bilbo was caught with his hand in William's pocket, William took pity on the "poor little blighter" - and let him go!  The very fact that these three had familiar names...William, Tom, Bert make them less intimidating to a child too, more human.

Bilbo got caught, he does have a lot to learn about burglarizing.   But he didn't hesitate to approach the three "big and scarey" trolls...and attempt to carry out his task.  Did he succeed? I guess you might say he did...he's a hero - he managed to get the key to the dwarves'  treasured swords. He showed that he has nerve - and courage, though still a bit clumsy in execution.  :D


Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 15, 2012, 09:37:51 AM
 Since Lord of the Rings is actually a trilogy, a three-book discussion would be a huge
undertaking. I'm wondering whether I would be willing to commit to what would likely
be a months-long undertaking. I would heartily recommend reading it to anyone
who hasn't done so. It is marvelous.
 WOW! I see it was discussed once, and took 6 & 1/2 months! Thank you, PAT.

 JOANP, I see that PatH has already answered your question. Yes, that is where I
found it. I like your view of Bilbo...nerve and courage, just a bit clumsy.  :)

 I'm noticing things in my reading that we all can relate to, young and old.  How many times have we been hurried out the door,  muttering 'purse, tissues, keys, glasses',  only to end up on our way and exclaiming, Oh, I forgot my ______!   Thankfully, Gandalf does bring him his handkerchiefs,  and even the all-important pipe and tobacco, which he hadn't thought of at all.  But after all, Bilbo has never been a trip before.  He wouldn't know where to begin making plans.  And how many times, even on a trip we're enjoying,  have we though wistfully of our comfortable chair and home and our familiar beds?
  See what genetic heritage can get you into.  The 'Took' outlook is taking over!

   I was a bit aghast to read that the trolls had already eaten 'a village and a half' of people.  Is that
really suitable for a child?  Which of you is it that read "The Hobbit" with your grandson?  How did he react
to this sort of thing?

Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 15, 2012, 12:03:24 PM
Babi...this little band of dwarves would be nowhere without Gandalf.  I hope he stays the course.

I'm thinking of reading it with my grandson...they seem to be used to gore - man-eating dwarves won't phase them - they know it's make-believe.  Besides, the trolls are outdone by a bunch of dwarves...you almost feel sorry for them.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on November 15, 2012, 04:23:33 PM
Are the trolls scary? I have a sample of one. My grandkids came over last night. The 13 year old always brings a book with him to read -- last night he brought -- guess what -- The Hobbit!

He's almost through with it. he asked me eagerly if I'd come to the trolls yet. I told him yes, and asked if they were scary. he looked confused and said no, they're hilarious.

He's older than the children we had in mind. But still,  I think that tells us something. Maybe we aren't as good at putting ourselves in the mind of a child as we think we are.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 15, 2012, 04:29:25 PM
I have a wonderful opportunity, which I'll probably pass up.  The movie of The Hobbit opens on December 14.  My f2f sci-fi/fantasy book club meets on the 13th, and some of the members are planning to go to the midnight plus one minute show afterward, everyone invited.  At least one will be in costume.  I don't know what character she'll be; she's a gorgeous young woman, and such characters aren't in good supply in the book.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 15, 2012, 04:33:01 PM
he asked me eagerly if I'd come to the trolls yet. I told him yes, and asked if they were scary. he looked confused and said no, they're hilarious.
Exactly.  By the time it occurs to you that they eat people, you already think they're funny.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JudeS on November 15, 2012, 05:08:53 PM
Babi
You ask if certain things in The Hobbit  are"Suitable for a child?"

The Swiss developmental psychologist, philosopher and theoretician, Jean Piaget, determined the facts that all Developmental Psychology is based upon.

The ability to differentiate between reality and fiction (trolls eating villagers, for instance) is developed between the ages of seven to eight and a half in our society. The Hoobit is aimed at the nine to thirteen age range. Therefore there aren't many children of that age who would be frightened by the "scary events" in this book or in other of Tolkien's books or movies.
Most younger children would be put off by the complexity of the plot...but not all. Remember there are SOME children who at age seven are ready to enjoy this book because their development in this arena came early.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 16, 2012, 09:46:30 AM
  Interesting, JUDE.  Sounds right, too.  I can well imagine a child of 7 or 8 enjoying this
book, but I think it's too complex for younger children.  An author may intend a book for
a certain age group,  but there is no guarantee that either younger or older readers may
not read it.  If Tolkien did intend his book for the 9-13 age group, I wonder what he would
think of us old-timers thoroughly enjoying it.

   I was surprised to find the dwarves so easily captured by the three trolls?  After all, these are supposed to be a hardy,  capable crew, off to battle a dragon!   Fortunately, Gandalf returns to the rescue, but he doesn't actually use any wizardly magic.  He imitates the troll voices and plays upon their weakness...ie, their hair-trigger tempers.  Children might very
well find the whole episode funny,  but I wonder if the idea could also have been put
across that using your brain could be more effective than wielding a weapon.

  The "Last Homely House".  Strange the way I responded to that name,  from the first time I read it.  A sense of nostalgia, of loss.  There is something saddening about it, beautiful as it is. 
 So true,  that the good quiet days and the comfortable pastimes, well....there's not much to say about them.  It's the hard times and trying events that make the stories.  And I suppose that's natural enough.  There is much to think about,  much to learn,  in the bad times.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 16, 2012, 11:47:35 AM
I think you're right about the lesson of the trolls, Babi, the trolls are undone by clever exploitation of their weakness.

You're also right to feel a sense of nostalgia and loss surrounding the elves.  They are an ancient people, with a mostly tragic history, and they have a feeling of remoteness from the time they are now living in.

There is a historical background subtext to this book which wasn't available to the public until some years after The Hobbit was published.  Tolkien had been working out the material that eventually formed The Silmarillion for years, and when he came to write The Hobbit, he used this world, its history and assumptions, as his setting.  It's not necessary to know any of this subtext to enjoy The Hobbit, but I think its existence is responsible for the vividness of the setting, and the feel of some of the characters.  Elrond in particular is an ancient, powerful, and heroic figure, as hinted at in this story.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 16, 2012, 02:26:04 PM
I've been enjoying this on two levels - it is so apropos to the political divides of the day - Also, I have been thrilled reading this through the eyes of a kid. When I was about 7 or 8 and it was exciting to hear of all this adventure and gore and good guys and bad guys and to get scared where it was safe reading in bed to get scared - like being in your own little world that parents nor siblings could pester you but every sound in the house added to the scary feelings. Of course I am thinking what it was like to read before TV and when the radio was only on in the morning for Mary Margaret McBride, that my mother faithfully listened to her advise and on Saturday and Sunday evening for Inner Sanctum and Charlie McCarthy and and and. The majority of the day and evening you heard the wind, crickets, birds, field and street sounds - even the fire crackling.

I wonder if the naming of the swords plays into the story later - you can see how Tolkien writes this as if telling the story to a child when things have to add up and little happenings are embroidered into bigger events. What a great way to teach a child that some awful thing could happen if you attempt to be important like a Hobbit and lift a wallet from someone's back pocket.

The morality lessons are sublet, yet they are there and done so outrageously they are not scolding lessons. If you sympathize with the Hobbits then when Bilbo is being eaten out of house and home, as a kid you shake your head about these naughty visitors but then, he follows up with a Thank You note that re-enforces the practice to those reading the story. Brilliant.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on November 16, 2012, 03:42:10 PM
Why do the swords have names?

In a lot of myths, the swords have names: King Arthur, Wagner's ring cycle. Tolkien may be drawing on the same myths that Wagner was?

So, why? because this makes them magic objects, with lives and histories of their own? I'm a birder, and when people ask why do I care what the name of that bird is, I say "if you don't know its name, you'll never know its history."
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 16, 2012, 06:25:39 PM
So, why? because this makes them magic objects, with lives and histories of their own? I'm a birder, and when people ask why do I care what the name of that bird is, I say "if you don't know its name, you'll never know its history."
You hit the nail squarely on the head, JoanK.  They aren't necessarily magic, though they may be, but swords of legend are personalities in their own right, part of the cast of characters, so they have names.  We learn that both swords have been used to fight goblins, and Gandalf's sword, Glamdring, was the sword of a fallen king.

We'll hear more about this in the next section.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 16, 2012, 06:30:37 PM
Tolkien did indeed draw on the same myths as Wagner.  Tolkien's re-working, The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrún, was done before The Hobbit, though not published until a few years ago.  In The Lord of the Rings, Aragorn, heir to a long-abandoned throne, has the shards of Narsil, the sword of his  fallen ancestor, re-forged, and renames it Anduríl.  This is similar to the musically splendid scene in which Wagner has Siegfried re-forge his father's broken sword, and name it Nothung.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: hats on November 17, 2012, 05:45:55 AM
Hi Majic,

I'm glad to meet you. Your mother had a grand idea. I hope we do get a chance to read it together. I have been sitting back enjoying the answers to the questions and the story.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: hats on November 17, 2012, 06:23:03 AM
PatH, I really like JoanK's quote. I'm going to read it again. Seems very important to me as an individual as well as the dwarves, Bilbo and Gandalf, etc.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: hats on November 17, 2012, 06:26:46 AM
So that means their family history is very important? If so, I can identify. I believe our family history is very important. My youngest son use to listen very closely whenever I would speak about family stories. It just seemed so natural for him to listen to my words.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marjifay on November 17, 2012, 09:20:57 AM
I read two chapters of The Hobbit and sent it back to the library.  Found it boring.  Guess fantasy is just not for me.

Marj
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 17, 2012, 09:52:54 AM
 The road of adventure....and perhaps the road of life as well?  "..  most of the paths were cheats and deceptions and led nowhere or to bad ends; and most of the passes were infested by evil things and dreadful dangers."    How often do we feel that way when our children first set out on their own?
   I agree that as a child's book, Tolkien intended more than amusement and entertainment. Already he has encouraged learning new things, exploring new places, courage...and now the wisdom of listening to the advice and guidance of wiser and more seasoned heads.

   It seems to me that Tolkien is showing his views on war, here.  The 'cruel, wicked, bad-hearted' goblins are the ones who invented the many weapons of war, from hammer to instruments of torture.  "It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the w world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large nmbers of people at once..." 

  The weapons he describes as beautiful, as well as terrible,  are the magical swords whose purpose is to destroy evil beings.  How many swords appear in fantasy/mythology that 'glow'
in the presence of such beings, giving warning of their presence.
 Pity we can't arrange for weapons that are only used in defense and always slay bad guys.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: hats on November 17, 2012, 10:26:25 AM
Barbara I see Tolkien's story in the same way. I see it as a cautionary tale about life's journey which is a daily adventure. I'm never fully prepared. I remember going on vacations with the family. No matter how far in advance I packed, no matter how many notes written, I would leave something behind. Bilbo has the same experience. He has forgotten his handkerchiefs. He didn't see Gandalf's sign on the door. He didn't dust under the clock. Tolkien, I think, is writing about adventures not being a natural part of our nature. It's alright to treat ourselves gently when stuff goes wrong along the way. We're only human. I think these points or the point would help children not to become perfectionists as so many of us have become along our way through life.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 17, 2012, 10:27:38 AM
Thanks for trying, marjifay.  No book appeals to everyone.  Better luck with the next book.

I agree, hats, family history is very important.  Even if our ancestors weren't in the history books, there is inspiration in looking at those people living lives that are quietly heroic as they do their best to make a good life for themselves and their families.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: hats on November 17, 2012, 10:44:19 AM
I think the trolls are less frightening because they argue constantly. The arguments make the trolls lose track of time and where they are exactly in their plans. I think children would laugh at the silly behavior between the trolls. I also think the fact that the trolls have a weakness would make a child more comfortable with the spooky parts of the story. The trolls can become stone again and forever. So, children can see the the big, bad people aren't so strong and infallible after all.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 17, 2012, 11:58:04 AM
I like the hint that Tolkien gives us about the book toward the end of the third chapter, just when the group arrives at the Last Homely House and finds its doors flung wide:

Now it is a strange thing, but things that are good to have and days that are good to spend are soon told about, and not much to listen to; while things that are uncomfortable, palpitating, and even gruesome, may make a good tale, and take a deal of telling anyway. They stayed long in that good house, fourteen days at least, and they found it hard to leave. Bilbo would gladly have stopped there forever and ever – even supposing a wish would have taken him right back to his hobbit-hole without trouble. Yet there is little to tell about their stay.

It seems that this adventure is going to be mostly about the difficulties our group faces and how they will be tested to make them possible heroes.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: dbroomsc on November 17, 2012, 02:12:34 PM
While in our local Barnes & Noble store, I happen to come upon a book entitled "The Hobbit and Philosophy" edited by Gregory Bassham and Eric Bronson.  Since I have been enjoying reading "The Hobbit" I thought this would be an interesting supplement.  I was right.  "The Hobbit" is a book of adventure.  Bilbo has never had any adventures.  His life is content, but dull.  However, once he leaves his comfort zone, he becomes  braver, more courageous, more self-reliant and something of a hero.  In "The Hobbit and Philosophy" we are told that is true for everyone.  Once we challenge ourselves to attempt new things, travel or meet new people, etc., we too, become braver, more courageous and more self reliant.  We don't necessarily become heroes, but we do become more interesting.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on November 17, 2012, 03:18:46 PM
Hats: excellant points. We do indeed always leave something behind.

Looks like bilbo is leaving his old self behind. "the hobbit and philosophy." fascinating!
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 17, 2012, 04:12:28 PM
Looks like we are all being a bit introspective as we read of Bilbo's adventure - Great sounding book Dean - tempting but oh so many piled on my sofa and nearby tables that this fall I could not say no to regardless there are not enough hours to read them.

Interesting isn't it hats how we see some of these groups frightening and others as benign - he sure does a good job of making those who appear frightening to be silly and interesting and then, allowing the mountain to gobble them up along with the ponies  - even more interesting is how big and rough and ill-mannered is made more frightening trumping, stealing by another smaller in statue group and even more, that Bilbo would ignore his morals in order to please the dwarfs who expect him to steal. Seems to me since the stealing is said to be a mischief Tolkien could be saying "One man's glory is another man's downfall". And then he writes that Bilbo lies to protect his friends - seems reasonable when the game of life is laced with fear.

Snug at home Bilbo would not have so many temptations to betray his own values. Is that it - he is relying on the Dwarfs during his adventure and so he feels the need to please them - I shudder that courage is counted coup with an act requiring courage during the mischievous nipping of someone's possession regardless, how frightening the owner appears.

Clarissa Pinkola Estes says, "We are strong when we stand with another soul. When we stand with one another, we cannot be broken." hmm OK but then it is difficult to justify standing with a group whose moral character is drowning you into submission.

I then ask, who is this guy Gandalf that he should arrange to have a group descend on Bilbo's home in an effort to awaken Bilbo to the Tuck heritage within and arranges fellow adventurers with other values. Ah and then it hits - Gandalf has become like a concept of God - a power - not a protector or a seducer - although, I wish God did a bit more protecting but one quick look at the world and the history of the world there is/was little protection - Gandalf appears to be a sorcerer of opportunity and if a God symbol, and there is pre-destination then, he is the source of our life's adventures - This is getting so far into trying to understand how we, so easily as Bilbo, act for our best interest in spite of what we value. How common it is that we allow fear and the need to be a part of a group determine our behavior.

Ah and like the many fairytales and myths they are explorations into our inner being - our spirit.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 17, 2012, 05:15:00 PM
Walking a Mountain Path and such is the adventures of Life ---!

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/11/10/article-2060023-0EBEF4C000000578-970_634x416.jpg)
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 17, 2012, 05:15:52 PM
Building a Mountain Path

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/11/10/article-2060023-0EC097A700000578-249_634x441.jpg)
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: hats on November 17, 2012, 05:57:45 PM
The photos and posts are so yummy. I have always loved the ocean. I have dreamed of living by the ocean. Just lately I've become fascinated with mountains. Mountains are so beautiful. When I look at a mountain and think of living on a mountain, I think of peace and safety. Like going far away from the maddening crowd. Thinking of Thomas Hardy the author of Far From The Maddening Crowd. I have one problem. I am afraid of heights.

Babi I haven't gotten to the Last Homily House yet. I like the name too. Can't wait to see how it's described. Just reading your post I think of "nostalgia."

JoanK I like learning about the sword names. I never realized in most fairy tales and/or fantasy swords have names. Did Don Quixote's sword have a name? I know his horse had a name.

dean69 I like your point and can understand it. Leaving our comfort zone leads to improvement in our character. I've always heard or read it's best to face our fears. Wonder what would have happened to Bilbo and the rest of his life if he hadn't taken on the journey and remained behind his green door with the yellow knob. After Gandalf and all had gone, I think he would have felt regret for not taking the risk. Once I decide not to take a risk, the next day I alway have feelings of regret. But as people use to say "time waits for no man." As my uncle would say, "the train done gone."

Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 18, 2012, 10:12:14 AM
 I do so agree with you, HATS, that we should let our children know they don't need
to be perfect. Children who feel they have to be the best at everything are under so
much pressure. It can easily become too much.

  True, MARCIE. But I wouldn't have missed the visit for anything.  Look what the
"Last Homely House" and it's people have done for our adventurers in their 'short rest'.   
Besides good food, laughter, music, dancing and singing.  Rested, refreshed, ...'their
clothes were mended as well as their bruises, their tempers and their hopes."
The
perfect vacation we all hope for and seldom find.

 On Bilbo and stealing, we should remember that the treasure was the property of the
dwarves, who were driven out by the dragon. I cannot imagine Bilbo actually stealing
anything that belonged to someone else. As to lying to protect one's friends, I think
anyone who would betray their friends because they 'could NOT tell a lie!' has far more
serious ethical problems than lying. Like, say, self-righteousness, pride, ego.
  Loved comparing the two 'mountain path' pictures, BARB. What a difference in
attitude!
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: hats on November 18, 2012, 10:24:57 AM
Can someone show pretty swords? Didn't really understand why they are romanticized. Babi I can't see Bilbo as a thief either. He's a nice guy. What is Bilbo's weakness? I'm having trouble finding anything wrong with him. He loves his home. Keeps thinking about it.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 18, 2012, 11:56:06 AM
Hats, I was taken with your mention of Don Quixote...and the contrast between these two adventurers.  An interesting question about his sword's name.

JoanK's comment about why sword's were given names..."with lives and histories of their own, makes them magic objects." I'm trying to remember whether DON Q. of all people named his sword.  He must have.  He spent some time thinking up a name for his  horse, Rocinante...  but his sword?  Don Q. read and studied many books of past exploits.  I can't believe he didn't name his sword.  Here's a site that addresses sword's names in history.  There's even a picture of Don Q's sword...but no name.. Does anyone remember a name?

(http://medievalcollectibles.com/images/Product/medium/MA-750S.png)

If you scroll  down this page you come to a list of  Fictional Swords (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictional_swords)...the swords from The Hobbit appear on this list...

Don Quixote and Bilbo Baggins are very different sorts of adventurers.  Don Quixote lives for the adventure...even when he is returned to his home, physically unable to go on, he escapes to continue.  He is driven by the adventure.  But Bilbo?  Not your stereotypical adventurer is he?   What keeps him going? Is it survival now?   Did he have a noble purpose, worth risking his life for?   This is the same question we were asking in the early chapters.  

Dean, I'm thinking of your post -  
"I've always heard or read it's best to face our fears. Wonder what would have happened to Bilbo and the rest of his life if he hadn't taken on the journey and remained behind his green door with the yellow knob."  I'm wondering that too.  Was he a fearful hobbit up to that time, unhappy with his life?  Maybe that was it.  Maybe the purpose of the adventure was to make him appreciate the life that he had...

As he moves forward, the words, "not for the last time" recur...almost like a refrain -  

Quote
"He wished again and again for his nice bright hobbit-holl.  Not for the last time."

"He was thinking once again of his comfortable chair before the fire in his favourite sitting room in his hobbit-hole and the kettle singing. Not for the last time."


Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 18, 2012, 12:20:40 PM
Quote
"1. What different purposes motivate Gandalf, the dwarves, and Bilbo?"

It seems the dwarves want their stuff, Bilbo's purpose is still murky, at least in my mind - but Gandalf?  What motivates him?

"Gandalf appears to be a sorcerer of opportunity and if a God symbol, and there is pre-destination then, he is the source of our life's adventures."  Whoa, Barbara...there's so much to take in here.  If we're talking about pre-destination, we know that Bilbo will come through each of these adventures...... we know that, don't we?  Children listening to this story can sense that too, don't you think?  Perhaps that's why they aren't frightened, but curious to see how he will survive each hurdle, not IF.  On a broader scale, do we know that about our own destiny, at the end of our adventure.

But someone mentioned here or in the Prediscussion, Tolkien's deeply religious Catholic background - which would probably pre-clude the idea of predestination. Maybe it's too presumptive to assume that's what he's writing about here...

Gandalf as a God symbol or one of the gods of myth  is an  interesting though.  Gandalf referred to the Necromancer.  A definition of a recromancer?  Something to do with communicating with the dead?  What was that about?  This is getting interesting on a whole other level.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 18, 2012, 12:21:49 PM
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

 November Book Club Online
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hobbit/hobbitcover.jpg)
 The Hobbit turns 75 this fall, an occasion likely to cause many thousands of people to reflect with fondness on their childhood memories of the adventures of Bilbo Baggins.

Though a much loved and widely respected children’s book, this work is too often overlooked by adults who relegate it to the nursery bookshelf.  "The Hobbit is a brilliantly constructed story unfolding themes that adult readers will still find compellingly relevant to the modern world: themes such as the nature of evil and the significance of human choice, or the corruptive power of greed and the ease with which good people can be drawn into destructive conflict." Corey Olsen is an Assistant Professor of English at Washington College in Maryland

 Bilbo Baggins begins as a cautious and conservative hobbit, well respected and considered a pillar of the hobbit community. When he reluctantly sets out on a quest to recover the stolen treasure of a band of dwarves, he encounters dangers of all descriptions. His adventures, which figure prominently in a prophecy of the dwbarves, are like stepping stones on the inner journey Biblo must take to find his courage. Bilbo faces trials which again and again force him to look deep inside himself for the strength and resourcefulness he needs to complete the task expected of him.

Discussion Schedule
 
Ch 1 - 3 Nov 12-16
Ch 4 - 6 Nov 17-21 Now Discussing
Ch 7 - 8 Nov 22-26
Ch 9 - 12 Nov 27-Dec 1
Ch 13 - 15 Dec 2-5
Ch 16 - 18 Dec 6-9
Ch 19 and overall Dec 10-13

Questions for Consideration

To notice for the whole book:

Tolkien incorporated many elements of myth, legend, and fairy tale.  What ones do you see?  Are they effective?

The story takes place in Middle Earth.  Is this our world?  How is it the same or different?

The Hobbit is a prelude to The Lord of the Rings.  If you are familiar with LOTR, notice which elements are present here, and what differences there are.

What different races of creatures do we meet?  What is each like?

Chapter 4.

1. Does the thought of setting out on an adventure appeal to you?   What different purposes motivate Gandalf, the dwarves, and Bilbo?
2. Apart from a child's entertainment, do you see other purposes as Tolkien develops his story?
3.  What features of human ingenuity does Tolkien attribute to Goblins?
4. Why do you think swords are approved and romanticised in our mythology?

Chapter 5.

1.  Ah, the key element, the mysterious ring that dominated "The Lord of the Ring" trilogy. One of it's powers we discover quickly;  do you find hints of other effects of the ring?
2.  Why does Bilbo agree to the riddle contest?   Is Tolkien ridiculing any aspect of society that you can think of?
3.  What change takes place in Bilbo regarding Gollum?  What does that say about Bilbo?

Chapter 6.
1.  Why does Bilbo choose to astonish his companions with a startling re-appearance?
  Can you relate to that?   What of his decision to keep the ring a secret...for a while?
2.  What new peril from the goblins do we learn of here?
3. What new species are introduced in this chapter?

 
Discussion Leaders:    PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net ); Marcie (marciei@aol.com), Babi (pmg371@aol.com), Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com )
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on November 18, 2012, 12:35:00 PM
Fictional swords weren't the only ones that had names. Wikipedia has a list of historical swords. Some you can click on to get the history of that sword.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_historical_swords

I suppose that good swords were a treasured item to have. The names can be symbolic, and they were sometimes used as a rallying point.could it be a bit of modesty that swords often take on the attributes, skill or luck, real or imagined, of the person wielding it. So the sword becomes Wolfslayer, for instance, not the person using it.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 18, 2012, 12:51:19 PM
OK a couple of posts while I was struggling writing this - it would be so easy to go back to my hobbit hole - problem, mine is filled with questions and questions and more questions.

OK my struggle - I missed that it was the dwarfs property - need to read it again but I do not think that is what crossed the mind of Bilbo when he decided to Burgle - that is what is confusing to me to this day - as a child I remember being confused - when is it OK to lie and then, later as an adult I questioned when is it OK to Kill rather than own these sinful outrageous act are as we are taught, wrong - It seems it is OK to protect Friends but then, if we are protecting friends that makes the commandment a crazy - because as a child I saw how it was more humane to protect others - even children's book in the early 40's were about kids involvement with protecting neighbors and class mates during WWII - and so, I have always struggled - is the commandment nuts or, are we not willing to sacrifice and then, the whole issue of being subjected to power that is often a power over -

I can see most folks are saying, will you just stop all this and just accept that you protect friends and family and be done with it - but then, is that divvying up sides which we have going on in the middle east today - taking sides seems to be more important than urging justice and compassion or protecting life... sorry, it is just confusing - never could figure it out which is the better behavior - so that I feel conflicted thinking a lot of the Bible is dribble, because I cannot imagine not protecting those I love.

Here we have Bilbo protecting those he is traveling with but does not seem to have any particular affection for - only that he should do a mischief to be acceptable?

I know - get on with it - but to me this only brings up the many confusions of what is real or how much do we act to save our own skins and the skins of those we take sides with and then call it virtuous behavior so that we are back to a tribe mentality. I think of the song in South Pacific where we have to be taught and this is an innocuous children's story that is taking it for granted that the hero will protect his newly formed tribe - does Bilbo know the wallet was stolen because of the Dragon - the story sounds to me like the wallet was simply easy grabs and he wrestled with the idea of going back to warn his friends but instead chose, "a bit of good quick burgling. A really first-class and legendary burglar would at this point have picked the troll's pockets - it is nearly always worth while, if you can manage it-, pinched the very mutton off the spits, purloined the beer, and walked of without their noticing him."

Almost, an exaggerated account of how he felt when the dwarfs ate him out of house and home and then he seems to be sarcastic, as Tolkien writes a bit of satire suggesting "Others more practical but with less professional pride would perhaps have stuck a dagger into each of them before they observed it. Then the night could have been spent cheerily." Which suggests to me that burglary is the lessor of handling someone who threatens you and your friends over, attempting to murder them.

I am looking at Bilbo as 'everyman' and I am seeing he is not a pure heroic figure - is that the lesson - among men there is no purity and to look for a "good" man is simply finding one who sticks up for you or acts the lessor of two evils. Is questionable behavior only OK when it benefits those who we like - are tribes the natural order of things and all this talk of world peace is a lot of hooey.

Now we even have glorified swords - ah and such is the life of men acting fearless - is it because Gandalf is not always around we must have swords for protection. OH I know but all this only says to me that maybe we make too much of wanting a hero - maybe we are all subject to this world which we are sharing with others who are not all in our tribe - maybe ambiguity is really what it is all about and to see the ambiguity is to make it real.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JudeS on November 18, 2012, 12:51:59 PM
More about swords.
The sword was developed in the Bronze age both in England and in China.It developed from the dagger which was a well known weapon since antiquity.
The development of the sword was made possible by the development of metals such as bromze alloys of steel and the development of heat treating elements.
When iron swords replaced bronze ones, the hilts which were developed to prevent injury,became highly personalized with intricate patterns indicating ownership.

Why did swords have names? Well they were an extension of the arm of the man who owned and used them. Freud  may have considered  a sword to be the extension of another part of the anatomy.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 18, 2012, 01:03:13 PM
The story of the crack in the cave and going down into the cave caverns - reminds me that there are many tales of trolls and goblins and dwarfs in Germany and Austria - the stories often include caves that are like the salt mines - Have you been to Bad Durrnberg - they have sleds that zip you down deep into the mine where the current digging is going on - The guide explains that without re-enforcement a tunnel will gradually close in on itself so that a salt miner can tell how long ago the particular area was mined by the amount of narrowing of the tunnel. These stories of salt mine caves are common in fairytales, folklore and myths and it appears Tolkien used the concept describing his cave.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on November 18, 2012, 02:02:20 PM
BARB: " Is questionable behavior only OK when it benefits those who we like - are tribes the natural order of things and all this talk of world peace is a lot of hooey."

This is just what bathers me about stories like "the hobbit" and myths like Wagners. One set of morals for our tribe: another for "the others". this has been the source of much of the misery in the world forever.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 18, 2012, 02:06:08 PM
At least in The Hobbit the "others" are mostly pretty evil.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on November 18, 2012, 02:07:33 PM
The "others" are always pretty evil.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 18, 2012, 02:10:20 PM
And they seem to be getting worse as we move further away from Hobbitville.  What's the difference between the trolls and the goblins, though.  The trolls are man-eaters - are the goblins?  Are each of these different groups - "tribes" supposed to represent different peoples - does anyone know?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 18, 2012, 02:30:21 PM
JoanP I see this as a story basic to our values and since we really do not believe Goblins and Trolls exist any more than we really believe in a fairy as a reality they can only be symbols of exaggerated behavior.

I am beginning to see here another view of Bilbo - rather than the cute hero who is good to the core - maybe we could see him as flawed and realize him as a more realistic 'everyman' with the realization that even flawed characters can be given large tasks that it is not just the Christ or the mythological knight that is worthy of a personal adventure - but we also, with free will that allows we sometimes act in our own best interest which is not adding to peace and understanding - that we do make the 'other' seem, in their differences frightening, with questionable morals and bad behavior so that we can make room to feel our fear and act on our fears.

Seems to me in a story like this we could question and learn how we create the other in our mindseye and maybe, just maybe we will start to see how a different approach to living with major differences could be. I do not think we can nullify these differences or the folks who represent these differences and so swords to me, magic or otherwise, are simply an acceptance of our own need to protect ourselves and have an association with a tribe for protection that we will do anything to protect, even if it means labeling the 'other' as evil by pointing to their bad behavior as if it was unique.  

I am seeing the closing of the crack in the cave with Gandalf left on the other side like the banishment from paradise that is in Genesis. Now the tribes are pitted one against the other for their future - is that really what this life is all about and is taught in much that we read and in as JoanK says, the stories of opera.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on November 18, 2012, 02:47:57 PM
Quote
Freud  may have considered  a sword to be the extension of another part of the anatomy.

Jude!  :o I suspect you are right.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: hats on November 18, 2012, 02:55:08 PM
JoanP Thank you for all the information about swords. The one you showed is very handsome. I can't remember whether Don Quixote's sword had a name or not. Jude I had to laugh about what you wrote on Freud and a sword. Barb JoanK and PatHhave me putting on my thinking cap. Barbara has gone back to Genesis. I need to pay close attention. I can't really tell the difference between the trolls and goblins. The goblins seem more like pranksters?? No?? There isn't much written about the elves. Is there? Need to go reread. The way I'm hearing it from all of you The Hobbit is far more than a fantasy. I really liked the cave scene. Have been through three or four caves. I'm always fascinated with the many chambers and those dripping water shapes which  serendipitously form different shapes from the real world. Always wanted to visit Mammoth Cave.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: hats on November 18, 2012, 03:06:15 PM
No, not pranksters. I think the goblins are more like terrorist groups of our day. They like war. They have prisoners. They eat people. Their tactics are "smart and secret." It's like Tolkien is describing guerrilla warfare. Odd, the goblins hate order and prosperity. I'm trying to think what type of government hates orderliness and prosperity. I'm thinking of anarchy. Are goblins anarchists? If so, don't we have to give a name to the trolls and elves???
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 18, 2012, 03:23:25 PM
hmm I wonder hats - do we benefit by naming a group of behavior - I am thinking of what Frybabe told us about the naming of swords and wonder now if naming is a way to do the same thing - like Frybaby said, "The names can be symbolic, and they were sometimes used as a rallying point.could it be a bit of modesty that swords often take on the attributes, skill or luck, real or imagined, of the person wielding it. " - could that be saying when we give a group of behaviors a name we are saying "The names can be symbolic, and they were sometimes used as a rallying point."

I am getting my dwarfs, hobbits, trolls and Goblins easily mixed up but it seems to me when the dwarfs arrived un-expectedly, meeting at the home of Hobbit Bilbo, he offered them his hospitality and they each requested what made them comfortable which is not how we think a guest accepts a gift of hospitality. They do not even preface their request with 'if you have' or 'if it is not trouble' and so from that I take it that the dwarfs think of themselves and their common adventure by assuming that everyone nearby shares their view and will make them comfortable. Reminds me of reading The Brave Vessel and the expectation of those planted in the colony - it is easy to box ourselves in and assume everyone thinks and behaves as we do and therefore, will get on board to share all our viewpoints as well as protect the tribe.

Is that it - tribes are developed because we are boxed in and therefore assume everyone shares the same point of view - some boxing can come with group isolation and some because we are surrounded with our own tribe.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: hats on November 18, 2012, 06:37:39 PM
Barb unable to repeat your thoughts, but I get it now. Also thoroughly understand Frybabe's thoughts about the swords. Frybabe thank you for answering the very questions I had about swords. For me, this isn't the easiest novel in the world. I have to stop and really think about the character traits of the trolls, eves and goblins. I think the goblins scare me the most. Again, maybe they shouldn't frighten me. Have to read about the groups again.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 18, 2012, 07:10:49 PM
The goblins are certainly the worst creatures we've met so far.  They eat people, keeping a few back to use as slaves, who they then work to death.  They make weapons and instruments of torture, and probably invented "the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once"
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 18, 2012, 08:32:38 PM
Yes Pat, nothing more unsettling than the idea of a slow death for ourselves or anyone - not that a quick, unintended death is much better but a slow death by torture - wow. When they say slaves you do not get the impression the Goblins are simply garnishing the work energy from the life of the slaves - we draw a mind-picture the Goblins are treating the slaves with little to no care.

Goblin behavior sure beats on the scale of 'bad', arriving somewhere unannounced, expecting individual hospitality and then not cleaning up afterward.

I wonder is the reading dependent upon figuring out who is worse than whom? I guess I am thinking that would be like saying, as long as you do not behave like Goblins than it is not so bad and excusable if you behave like Dwarfs or even Trolls. It is sure easier to forgive the behavior of wee people who are at worst ill-mannered and selfish.

I am still stuck with the idea that Tolkien is saying, ordinary non-perfect people can go on adventures that have ever-lasting meaning. It will be interesting to see the role the Goblins continue to play - are they the symbol for all that is bad in humans do you think. Well they are all mixed in together to work it out in these cave chambers - institutional power struggle is the hotbed into which they descended
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: majic on November 18, 2012, 08:50:15 PM
Somewhere, Tolkien wrote once, "You have to understand the good in things to, detect the real evil."

In many fantasy stories, good and evil are expected to enter into a physical, as well as, a psychological conflict. Tolkien uses this classical theme in "The Hobbit", as he develops the struggle between the two through out his work.

In the "LOTR" the reader will find many examples of sacrificial themes. I expect that they are also present in "The Hobbit", if we look for them.

In chapter 1, it was said, "This is the story of how a Baggins had an adventure, and found himself doing and saying things altogether unexpected. He may have lost the neighbors' respect, but he gained--well, you will see whether he gained anything in the end"

Bilbo is a small creature, being a Hobbit, who makes a huge difference, before the end of the tale, not only in his life but also in "the Wide World", as Tolkien calls it in one of his other works, "Farmer Giles". Bilbo, also, makes a huge impact in literature as well.

In response to the ideas of predestination, Tolkien writes:
"You don't really suppose, do you, that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck, just for your sole benifit? You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!".

Later, Thorin’s dying words to Bilbo are, “There is more in you of good than you know…If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.”
Does this lead us to believe good will win out over evil?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Bookjunky on November 18, 2012, 09:10:09 PM
The sword discussion interested me. Yes, swords were an extension of the persons arm. Not every sword has/had a name just the best and finest swords. These swords took great craft and a long time to make. The were individually hand made by an artisan. When I think of Sting, Bilbo's small sword I remember the times it saved him and later Frodo with its special property.

May I also add that before I read Tolkien for the first time I had not been introduced to great fantasy. This book and The Lord of the Rings had an impact on my reading habits and opened up a new genre of fiction to me.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 18, 2012, 10:40:53 PM
These swords took great craft and a long time to make. The were individually hand made by an artisan.
Yes, and sword-making techniques were a matter of art and arcane knowledge; they didn't know the science behind it.  If you knew better ways of smelting to get stronger metal, the best mixes of metals to use, the most effective ways of cooling and tempering the finished weapon, how to layer and fuse different metals, your sword would be stronger, less likely to break, more able to cut into armor.  Careful design could make a sword that handled better, could be used more effectively.

These differences could be a matter of life and death in battle.  It's no wonder they admired their swords and named them.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: hats on November 19, 2012, 01:52:48 AM
Never knew so much about swords. When I read about a sword in another book, I will pay closer attention. Yes, now I have more appreciation for Fantasy fiction. I will think of Tolkien as the one who inspired my interest.
 


Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 19, 2012, 09:37:26 AM
  Oh, thank you for that link, PAT.  I've been wanting to explore that topic and there
it is!  Mythical, magical swords are apparently found in the literature of most of the
world. It's much harder to imagine applying personality to the monstrous weapons used
nowadays.

  Surely Bilbo loved his home and was quite satisfied with his life. I think it is the
changes he is seeing in himself that keeps him going. He has discovered courage he didn't
know he had, abilities that surprise him, a growing confidence in himself. That's pretty
heady stuff.
  I don't see Gandalf as a god figure. He seems more to me a symbol of the element of magic
that can come to the rescue when needed. Whether wizards, or fairy godmothers, they are
found in so many children's stories.

  BARB, doesn't the commandment you are referring to say "Thou shalt not bear false witness."?
It might be helpful to reflect on what, exactly, that is saying. And of course one should
stand up for what is right, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to work out a way of
justice and compassion for both sides. Hmm,  I think I'll do a search/study on lying in
the Bible. (The Thompson Chain Reference is wonderful for that sort of thing.)

  Okay, pardon the digression, please. I don't think there is a great difference between
goblins and trolls, just that the trolls are bigger, and meaner, and even the goblins are
afraid of them. 
 I have seldom read a description of a character that aroused more distaste and aversion than
Gollum. I can't really think of one just now.  How remarkable, that Tolkien's talent gave us, in one
story, one of the most charming of all characters, Bilbo Baggins, and one of the nastiest, Gollum.

   Naturally reading about the riddle game reminded me of childhood riddles my brother and I
learned.  I tried to think of a really hard one to offer here,  but couldn't.  Much like the two
contestants in the game here.  But why did Bilbo agree to such a contest at all?  'If I lose, you
get to eat me'!!!?  And he, at least,  considered himself bound by it. Curious, I did some exploring and found this fascinating essay.  http://www.portifex.com/BSPages/Honor.htm  Is dueling still a problem in Tolken's time?  He seems to be saying that some ideas of 'honor' are pretty dumb.

Quote
  Oh, thank you for that link, PAT.  I've been wanting to explore that topic and there
it is!  Mythical, magical swords are apparently found in the literature of most of the
world. It's much harder to imagine applying personality to the monstrous weapons used
nowadays.

  Surely Bilbo loved his home and was quite satisfied with his life. I think it is the
changes he is seeing in himself that keeps him going. He has discovered courage he didn't
know he had, abilities that surprise him, a growing confidence in himself. That's pretty
heady stuff.
  I don't see Gandalf as a god figure. He seems more to me a symbol of the element of magic
that can come to the rescue when needed. Whether wizards, or fairy godmothers, they are
found in so many children's stories.

  BARB, doesn't the commandment you are referring to say "Thou shalt not bear false witness."? It might be helpful to reflect on what, exactly, that is saying. And of course one should stand up for what is right, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to work out a way of
justice and compassion for both sides. Hmm,  I think I'll do a search/study on lying in
the Bible. (The Thompson Chain Reference is wonderful for that sort of thing.)

  Okay, pardon the digression, please. I don't think there is a great difference between
goblins and trolls, just that the trolls are bigger, and meaner, and even the goblins are
afraid of them. 
 I have seldom read a description of a character that aroused more distaste and aversion than
Gollum. I can't really think of one just now.  How remarkable, that Tolkien's talent gave us, in one story, one of the most charming of all characters, Bilbo Baggins, and one of the nastiest, Gollum.

   Naturally reading about the riddle game reminded me of childhood riddles my brother and I
learned.  I tried to think of a really hard one to offer here,  but couldn't.  Much like the two
contestants in the game here.  But why did Bilbo agree to such a contest at all?  'If I lose, you
get to eat me'!!!?  And he, at least,  considered himself bound by it. Curious, I did some exploring and found this fascinating essay.  http://www.portifex.com/BSPages/Honor.htm  Is dueling still a problem in Tolken's time?  He seems to be saying that some ideas of 'honor' are pretty dumb.

 


 


Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 19, 2012, 10:58:58 AM
It's not my link, it's Frybabe's.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 19, 2012, 11:26:26 AM
Babi, re your question why Bilbo agreed to the riddle game with Gollum despite the consequences of losing... it seems to me that he felt he had no choice. They had already started with one riddle as Gollum proposed that they "chats" a bit (as each was trying to find out more about the other). Then when Gollum commanded that they have a competition with consequences (Bilbo being eaten or Gollum showing him the way out), Bilbo didn't "dare to disagree." He already knew that he was lost and quite alone and could never find his way out without Gollum's help and he didn't know if Gollum was "fierce or hungry or a friend of the goblins."

It seems that Bilbo often is finding himself in a tight situation because he is either fearful to make a different move or, in the case of his going on the adventure in the first place, too "Tookishly" stubborn to show weakness to the dwarves.

I agree that the character of Gollum is a great invention. It's so imaginative to have  him lisping his "s's" and talking to himself as "my precious."
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 19, 2012, 12:52:25 PM
Was he lisping, Marcie...or was it more like hissing?  I counted four "s'es" in "precioussss" at one time.

But even if he was hissing,  I didn't find  Gollum as frightening as the others...although he did have an appetite for fish...and meat!  Even ate Goblins.  He was described as being very small - and alone.  Did he have a family?  Or friends?  He gave the impression of being lonely - even before Tolkien told us that he was.  I would think that children pick up on this.  

Spends his time talking to himself.  Did he really just want company? A playmate?  That seems to account for the riddle games.  I'm still puzzling over the "daisy" riddle...the one blue eye, the one green...did you understand it?   And I never would have guessed the "no legs lay on one leg...the fish on the little table one...  Gollum would have gobbled me up in no time.

The two of them seem to have had more in common than differences.  Gollum played the riddle game, needing the time to find out if Baggins was alone, more about his sword, whether he was good to eat.  And Bilbo needed to find out if there were more creatures like him, if he was hungry...and the way out.  So they played on.

I really enjoyed the last riddle...though I can see Gollum's point.  Bilbo's question wasn't really a true riddle, was it?  What did he have in his pocket?  Only three guesses.  When Gollum discovered his birthday present ring was missing, and began to suspect that  Baggins had found it and started chasing him asking what was in his pocket, the riddle was complete,  as Baggins kept answering with the right answer..."what have you lost?"  No wonder Gollum went ballistic and wanted to catch him - probably not to eat him just yet, but to get his lost ring from Baggins' pocket.  But the hobbit doesn't know this. That was really entertaining!

Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: majic on November 19, 2012, 02:41:18 PM
I agree with JoanP comments in reference to Bilbo and Gollum: "The two of them seem to have had more in common than differences."

This is undoubtedly true, because Gollum was once a Hobbit whose personality has deteriorated due to the hold that the ring now has on him. At one time, Gollum must have had many more characteristics similar to Bilbo's. I'd guess even then their characteristics must have been striking different based on their family backgrounds.

"The Took family side" having its influence over Bilbo's "Baggins family side" is mentioned frequently which points out the differences even within Bilbo himself.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 19, 2012, 04:54:10 PM
Indeed, majic, Bilbo and Gollum are somewhat akin, their similar backgrounds shown by their knowing the same riddles.  And though he is treacherous and sneaky, he is also pitiful.  Bilbo feels this when he is trying to get past him at the cave mouth.  He must fight Gollum to escape, but sees it wouldn't be fair:

"A sudden understanding, a pity mixed with horror, welled up in Bilbo's heart: a glimpse of endless unmarked days without light or hope of betterment, hard stone, cold fish, sneaking and whispering."

He can't do it, and with new-found strength leaps over Gollum instead.

We see more of this  in LOTR, where Gollum is mostly evil, but pitiable too.

I once saw a vanity license plate "GOLLUM".  I've always wondered about it.

Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 19, 2012, 05:00:46 PM
JoanP, I'm hopeless at riddles but my book explains the Daisy riddle.  The eye in the blue face is the sun in the sky, the eye in the green face is the daisy in the grass.  It also (my book says) a play on the Anglo-Saxon origin of the word daisy, which comes from "day's eye".  Tolkien couldn't always stop being a linguist.

Clever of you to catch the kinship of Bilbo and Gollum.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 19, 2012, 05:28:15 PM
JoanP, yes I think that Gollum was hissing "s's" but I couldn't think of the word to describe it :-)

Even though he wants to eat Bilbo, I too feel sorry for him. He's an interesting character. I don't think there is anything sympathetic about the trolls and goblins. Maybe it's partly because they don't really engage in conversation with anyone. They make threats, attack the dwarves and Bilbo and quarrel among themselves.

Pat, I couldn't figure out the riddles either...even the "easy" ones. It reminds me a bit of the Star Trek Next Generation episode "Darmok" when the Enterprise crew meet an alien crew whose society talks in metaphors, which rely on a shared history and experience. You can watch a few minutes of the alien language at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-wzr74d7TI
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on November 19, 2012, 07:05:25 PM
Marcie, that is my very favorite Star Trek episode. Captain Picard was telling the story of Gilgamesh. I guess even alien societies have epic myths that share common ground.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 19, 2012, 09:44:23 PM
My favorite too, Frybabe. Captain Picard at his "Renaissance Man" best. Star Trek has much in common with epics such as The Hobbit/Lord of the Rings.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 19, 2012, 10:46:44 PM
With Gollum and Bilbo both hobbits I had a flash as if symbolically they were two sides of a coin - that within us there lies a Gollum - that part of us that is kept in the dark for one reason or another- the part of us that sometimes looses hope, becomes hard and if not sneaking around we are low, sometimes even depressed so that it takes a mighty leap of the side of us that is moving forward in this life to move past our Gollum.

The comment by Gandalf about not bringing anything that are of no use reminds me of the popular saying a few years ago that - God makes no junk. And oh the webs we weave in order to be thought of with high esteem.

And yet, he is right - how can they accept Gandalf just turning up in the cave chamber with no explanation - but then all is logically explained.

I love the description of toes bruised and bent, not just bruised but, saying bent makes you smile and then a stomach that wags like an empty sack, perfect, more smiling...
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: majic on November 19, 2012, 11:19:00 PM
That's exactly the way I see it, BarbStAubrey. Bilbo and Gollum mirror the good and bad in us. Much of this is all about the struggles between good and evil.
The possession of the ring has serious effects on its owner. Hasn't it already started to change Bilbo? Why didn't he tell his friends how he got away, why did he keep the ring a secret?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: hats on November 20, 2012, 03:53:01 AM
Gollee, who knew The Hobbit would speak to our inner selves? I knew. When The Senior Bookies get a hold of a book they draw every last nugget of gold or false gold from its pages. I haven't gotten to the part about the ring. Wasn't their a worm named Smaug or something like that in these pages?? He or it creeped me out too. Trying to catch up. I've met Gollum I'm not good guessing rhymes. So Bilbo and Gollum's riddle contest just amazed me. Never could get an answer right for a riddle.
With the Goblins and Gollum and the dragon I think Tokien wanted to creep the children out a little bit. Make them want to run in a closet and shiver and shake. I think all children like creepy stories especially when their life is peaceful and secure. I can't remember my first spooky story or novel. When I became a teen, I went to see House of Ushers by Poe. It scared the daylights out of me. The Secret Garden and My Bed is a Counterpane by Robert Louis Stevenson did make me, as a child, very frightened of the idea that children could become sick. I didn't want to be the little boy in the bed with all his soldier men around him.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 20, 2012, 11:43:45 AM
Interesting - I wanted to get a better understanding of Gollum since several of us think he represents a part of each of us - the good bad concerned me because we would not want to own what is bad and so we may be isolating further a part of ourselves because we are mis-understanding and Bilbo does us a favor by pointing out the virtues so to speak of Gollum.

Gollum lives on an island in the middle of an underground lake - looking up the Traditional Symbolism in the Encyclopaedia by J.C.Cooper:

A Lake is the feminine principle often the dwelling place of magical feminine powers, (The Lady of the Lake) , the collections of receptive wisdom.

An Island is a place of isolation and loneliness but also a place of safety and refuge from the sea of chaos. There is more about enchanted Isles however I do not think Gollum's Island is especially enchanted - the location is a fantasy but not enchanted.

Wow, really interesting, get this - A Cave is the symbol of the universe, the world center; the heart; the place of union of the Self and the ego; the meeting place of the divine and the human. All dying gods and saviors are born in caves; inner esoteric knowledge; hidden knowledge, a place of initiation. The cave is also the feminine principle, the womb of Mother Earth, a place of burial and rebirth, of mystery, increase and renewal, from which man emerges and to which he returns at death in the stone sepulcher.

The Cave is closely related to the Heart as a spiritual and initiatory center of both the macrocosm and microcosm - where the mountain is the visible and external masculine principle the cave within the mountain is the feminine, hidden and closed; being part of the mountain the cave shares the axial symbolism. Initiation ceremonies most often took place in a cave symbolic of the underworld and the sepulcher where death took place prior to rebirth and illumination.

As a place of initiation it is a secret place, the entrance is hidden from the profane by a labyrinth or dangerous passage, guarded by some monster or supernatural persons, and entry could only be gained by overcoming the opposing force. Passing through the cave represents a change of state, achieved by overcoming dangerous powers. The cave is often the place of the sacred marriage between heaven and earth, body and soul, king and queen, the place of hero's games.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 20, 2012, 02:55:14 PM
 I'm still staring, wondering how a full quote of that post got reprinted in the
same post!  ???

 I had to grin at the sly insert of "The wizard, to tell the truth, never minded explaining his cleverness more than once..." ;)

    Ah, yes, MARCIE. I had forgotten that bit about needing Gollum to show him the
way out. Certainly a chance is better than no chance.  At the same time, I find
myself doubting very much that Gollum would have let Bilbo out without a search,
no matter what he promised. In this case, Bilbo's sense of honor places him at a disadvantage.
 
 You may be right, JOANP. Gollum was small, but then Bilbo wasn't very big either.
I have the impression that Gollum was quite strong, but I'm not sure just where I
got that idea. Perhaps from the heavy stones he hauled about to make his 'nest'.

 I could understand Bilbo's feelings of pity for Gollum, and even sympathize with
them. But I believe they say more about the character of Bilbo than that of Gollum.

BARB, that was a brilliant 'flash'.  Bilbo and Gollum as symbolically two sides of
a coin. I'm going to keep that thought with me as we proceed. I'm confidant it
will provide more insights into what the author is saying.

 It's hard to guess what will alarm a child. It's hard to get too scared when you
are curled up safely in bed with an adult reading with you. I guess each generation
is more sophisticated at an earlier age. Things I thought would alarm a child did
not cause my own a minute's worry.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JudeS on November 21, 2012, 12:29:46 AM
All this talk of Gollum reminded me of the original GOLEM. If he is unknown to you let me introduce you to him.

In Jewish folklore the Golem is an anthropomorphic creature created from inanimate matter.
The word golem appears first in the Bible in Psalms 139.6 as "GOLMI" or My unshaped form. Later religous books (the Mishnah) used Golem as a term for an uncultured person.

The word is used today in Hebrew for a brainless lunk. In Yiddish it became Goylem, meaning clumsy or slow.
The main disability of the Golem is its inability to speak.
As a supernatural figure The Golem was first mentioned in 16th century Prague. The story was about using him to prevent anti-semitic attacks.
in the 19th century five different books explored the Golem legend. This legend  greatly influenced the images of Frankenstein, the Sorcerers Apprentice and a figure in R.U.R, a play by Karl Capek in which the word Robot was used for the first time.
The Golem always obeys its master and so was the background for The Daleks in the early Dr Who series.(Remember "I obey!")

Today in Japanese video games the Golem has many descendents, among them Golett and Goluck.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 21, 2012, 04:04:18 AM
I know your post Jude was not meant to be funny but rather giving us another bit of historical myth and tradition that helps us fill in more of the story but Oh Oh OH I could not stop laughing "a brainless lunk"  :D :D
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on November 21, 2012, 07:07:23 AM
That is pretty neat, Jude. I had no idea.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 21, 2012, 09:15:47 AM
I wonder if Tolkien had golems in mind?  He seems more focussed on the northern myths.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 21, 2012, 09:16:08 AM
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

 November Book Club Online
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hobbit/hobbitcover.jpg)
 The Hobbit turns 75 this fall, an occasion likely to cause many thousands of people to reflect with fondness on their childhood memories of the adventures of Bilbo Baggins.

Though a much loved and widely respected children’s book, this work is too often overlooked by adults who relegate it to the nursery bookshelf.  "The Hobbit is a brilliantly constructed story unfolding themes that adult readers will still find compellingly relevant to the modern world: themes such as the nature of evil and the significance of human choice, or the corruptive power of greed and the ease with which good people can be drawn into destructive conflict." Corey Olsen is an Assistant Professor of English at Washington College in Maryland

 Bilbo Baggins begins as a cautious and conservative hobbit, well respected and considered a pillar of the hobbit community. When he reluctantly sets out on a quest to recover the stolen treasure of a band of dwarves, he encounters dangers of all descriptions. His adventures, which figure prominently in a prophecy of the dwbarves, are like stepping stones on the inner journey Biblo must take to find his courage. Bilbo faces trials which again and again force him to look deep inside himself for the strength and resourcefulness he needs to complete the task expected of him.

Discussion Schedule
 
Ch 1 - 3 Nov 12-16
Ch 4 - 6 Nov 17-21
Ch 7 - 8 Nov 22-26 Now Discussing
Ch 9 - 12 Nov 27-Dec 1
Ch 13 - 15 Dec 2-5
Ch 16 - 18 Dec 6-9
Ch 19 and overall Dec 10-13

Questions for Consideration

To notice for the whole book:

Tolkien incorporated many elements of myth, legend, and fairy tale.  What ones do you see?  Are they effective?

The story takes place in Middle Earth.  Is this our world?  How is it the same or different?

The Hobbit is a prelude to The Lord of the Rings.  If you are familiar with LOTR, notice which elements are present here, and what differences there are.

What different races of creatures do we meet?  What is each like?

Chapter 7.

The Eagles appear like Black Shadows and Gandalf describes Beorn as easily annoyed with no certainty how he will act – both are protectors – both offer hospitality around a fire – What is the difference in their fire?

Do you see those who protect us in life as scary?

In what ways is Bilbo fearful and how does he handle his fear?

Why does Beorn leave his guests for a full night till the next morning?

What is similar about Beorn and Bilbo?

What does Beorn accomplish do you think when he impales his conquests at his gate?

What is the most important advice that Beorn and Gandalf give for the journey through the Forest?

How does their advice make you feel; safe, cautious, fearful, constrained, unlocking your imagination. Does the advice make you feel adventurous, tentative, or creative?

Chapter 8.

What does the strength of the rope used to pull the boat mean to you?

What about the Deer made the dwarfs shoot their arrows? What is the message of using our resources as they used their best arrows?

What about the carrying of the sleeping Bombur remind you of today? Was it Bombur's fault that he fell in the stream?

How did Bilbo become separated from the dwarfs and how does he manage to escape the giant spider?

Can you remember a time when you acted foolhardy flush with a recent success?

What was important enough that Bilbo let the dwarfs in on the secret of the ring?

What strengths and weaknesses do the individual dwarfs show and how do they cope with the situations they encounter. Do you see yourself in any of them - how they handle themselves when captured or in battles?

 
Discussion Leaders:    PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net ); Marcie (marciei@aol.com), Babi (pmg371@aol.com), Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com )
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 21, 2012, 09:23:02 AM
This is our last day on this section, and we still have two more races to meet--the wrathful wargs and the elevated eagles.  And another cliffhanger to get out of, and a plot against humans.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 21, 2012, 09:43:44 AM
Gollum/GOLEM
That is "neat," Jude  - do you see any connection between the original Golem and Tolkien's character? Do you think Tolkien was aware of the Golem when naming Gollum?

I've a question about Gollum, ever since Barb wrote
Quote
"With Gollum and Bilbo both hobbits I had a flash as if symbolically they were two sides of a coin..."


I'm trying to follow the thought and the idea of Gollum a hobbit?  Where did that come from?  We're talking symbolicaly, right? Surely Gollum is not a dark hobbit - does not even recognize a hobbit when he sees one.  Doesn't know whether Bilbo is good to eat or not.  Tolkien doesn't let on where G. came from - just that he is very old, small and dark - "as dark as darkness."

Quote
"I don't know where he came from, nor who or what he was."  
The narrator.

For the first time, I'm wondering who is narrating the tale.  Tolkien himself, right?

Why would Bilbo decide to keep Gollum's ring?  Because he realizes that he might need it again in the future?  Perhaps he will meet Gollum again - on the way home - and make restitution?

Just a bunch of questions today - no  insights.  Sorry!
Will be back to face those Wargs...now those are the stuff of nightmares.  Must make the stuffing first so I feel I'm making progress.


Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 21, 2012, 09:48:21 AM
 Really? I'll definitely go find that verse, JUDE. I can't imagine reading a word
like 'Golmi' and not investigating it. But then, I do most of my Bible reading from
the modern translations.

   The dwarves may have been mystified, but Gandalf knows something has happened.  Bilbo isn't sure about Gandalf's remark, "What did I tell you? Mr. Baggins has more about him than you guess."Considering the 'queer look' he gave him,  Bilbo senses a possible double meaning there.
 
  On the march...dinnerless, supperless,  etc.  Poor hobbit.  I looked up sorrel, wondering how helpful that might be.  Found this:  "sorrel ..is an indigenous English plant, common, too in the greater part of Europe...  about 2 feet high, with juicy stems and leaves.."
Used, apparently, in salads and meat stews  
   Cockscomb clover:  I couldn't find it in Explorer.  Google had one, very hard to find, with a link
about five lines long.  It looks much like a yellow thistle, but without the thorns.
   Eagles with Golden crowns and collars.  Today's Golden Eagle, perhaps?

  I couldn't find a good picture of the big bees, but I saw some in my yard a couple of years
ago.  Bigger than the bumble bee,  with the coloring more vivid.  I thought they were beautiful.
Have not seen one since. I would be glad to see them again.

   Have you noticed?  All of these fantasy species are the same.  Not as other species, of course, but all goblins behave the same, all wargs all alike, trolls uniformly mean and ugly.
Apparently only humans and elves have differences, uniqueness.  I include the elves because
of the difference between the Lord of the Homely House, and the Elvenking, but that difference
by also be attributed to the human heritage of the Homely House elves.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 21, 2012, 10:04:48 AM
Hmm...Babi - there was only ONE Gollum though, as there is only one Hobbit.
Why only one Gollum, why not many?

I'm remembering something PatH posted earlier -

Quote
Gandalf chose Bilbo to be an antidote to the greed which is the dwarves' biggest fault.

Perhaps Bilbo is supposed to represent an antidote to the dark side of Gollum.  

Do you think the dwarves...or Gollum himself for that matter, will change as a result of their association with Bilbo by the end of the tale?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 21, 2012, 12:12:20 PM
Without checking the story I remember Gollum, before he lived in the cave he was described as having lived near a river or stream in a hole - it did not say specifically a hobbit hole but so far they are the only ones who live in holes and that is where I thought those who said he was also a hobbit got their information - something about Gollum having lived with his grandmother. Since Gollum and Bilbo are paired during the story it seems a symbolic relationship that resonates as the dark or as I see it the neglected and isolated aspects of Bilbo. I forgot till I wrote this - when Gollum lived in his hole he was also near water -

Found an online Dictionary of Symbols - not as complete as most books but it does show a few of the bits of we read about in the story - like Cave, and Forest, and River...
http://www.umich.edu/~umfandsf/symbolismproject/symbolism.html/

I like what Dr. Louis says in his online Symbolism in Literature
http://www.scribd.com/doc/6472314/Symbolism-in-Literature

Quote
The term, symbol, when used in literature is often a figure of speech in which a person,object, or situation represent something in addition to its literal meaning. Conventional or traditional literary symbols work in much the same way, and because they have a previously agreed upon meaning, they can be used to suggest ideas more universal than the physical aspect itself.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 21, 2012, 08:58:20 PM
Barb - it occurs that if Gollum once lived with his grandmother -in a hole, and if, in fact a hobbit - might she have been a Took? :o Just a thought...

Not sure about the symbolism of this last group of terrorists...they are simply wolves - wolves that go by a different name - Wargs.  What was Tolkien telling us with these evil-doers?  Not forgetting that the tale was written for his children - children have always been threatened by big bad wolves. To see GANDALF up a tree, not knowing what to do next - "dreadfully afraid" we're told - the only thing he could think to do was toss burning pine cones at the wolves! Tossing flaming cones -in a forest! How clever was that?

What would have become of him, the dwarves and Bilbo had the Eagles not been flying overhead at that moment and come to their rescue? It was luck, wasn't it?  Sheer luck. Come to think of it - luck plays an important part in each of these episodes - as when Bilbo came across the Gollum's ring at the very moment he would have been killed.
Is there a message here?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 21, 2012, 10:29:12 PM
hmmm yes, you are right - I wonder if she was a Took - interesting - and yes, happen chance - there is some sort of saying something about once committed providence moves and all sorts of things happen to assist you in your endeavor. I guess your life, your existence, saving your neck, is a strong enough commitment that providence moves in spades.

Too bad it does not move for everyone in life - it must be a shock to see your not going to be saved if you kept to the belief that providence would assist. Makes you think there is a flash of thought as to what the depth of commitment had to be. I kinda prefer your observation - it is just luck and we control none of it...
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 22, 2012, 01:46:28 AM
Hope you have a memorable Thanksgiving - we really are so blessed aren't we - Today we continue the journey into the Forest with Chapters 7 and 8 - those Goblins sure can bring about a lot of scary happenings - and Bilbo seems to be a poster child for the saying if it doesn't kill you it makes you stronger.

We left the story with the Eagles having landed and whisking them off to safety - now they are perched on the top of the world - again, hungry -
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 22, 2012, 10:12:27 AM
Perhaps Bilbo is supposed to represent an antidote to the dark side of Gollum.  
I think so--they are the opposite possibilities of one being.  And when Bilbo is desperate to get out of the cave, its mouth blocked by Gollum, he feels a wave of pity as he realizes what Gollum's life is like, how far he has fallen, and that except for better luck, he, Bilbo, could have come to that.  It's an important decision not to take the first step down, not to murder Gollum to escape, and that gives him the burst of strength to leap over Gollum's head and get away cleanly.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JudeS on November 22, 2012, 05:03:30 PM
Joan K
Ypu asked if I think Tolkien knew about the legend of the Golem.Of course he did. To the point that he got feedback that pointed to the idea that people saw Gollum like a GOLEM. i.e.big, lumbering and not too smart. Tolkien, in his later editions of his book made sure that he gave more exact dimensions of this creatur and more details about his character so readers wouldn't confuse the two.
As we saw so explicitly in The Tempest by WS there are lines and ideas stolen from various  other author's plays, essays, stories and novels.
To give another examples of this "borrowing trend":
In Peter Jackson's version of LOTR Gollum looks very much like Dobby of J K Rawlings Harry Potter.
In fact this whole search into Gollum began because he so much resembled Dobby that I thought my imagination was running away with me and I was seeing things that weren't there.
Now I am on Terra Firma again and all is right with the world  (sort of) on this lovely Thanksgiving day !
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 22, 2012, 07:39:05 PM
This has nothing at all to do with The Hobbit, only with golems.  Judy, are you familiar with the writer Avram Davidson?  He wrote mostly fantasy and science fiction.  One of his early short stories is The Golem.  In it, an elderly couple in Los Angeles see a grey-faced person, who walks strangely.  He tells them: "When you learn who--or rather what--I am, the flesh will melt from your bones in terror."  They manage to dismember the electronics inside him, write the correct word on his forehead, and subdue him into an automaton who will mow their lawn, all the while gossiping about their family and seemingly mostly oblivious to what they are doing.  Short and sweet and very funny.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JudeS on November 23, 2012, 03:58:42 PM
Pat
Never heard of that story. However in other stories about The Golem you have a similar scenario.
The word on The Golem's forehead is EMET in Hebrew meaning truth. If you remove the first letter (in Hebrew, Aleph) the letters that remain are "Met" which in Hebrew means DEAD.....
Spooky!
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 23, 2012, 04:34:15 PM
   True, JOANP, thankfully. One Gollum is more than enough, I would think. And
since this Gollum apparently was once a hobbit, I am happy to know he's the only
one that fell into this terrible condition.  Will Bilbo change any of the dwarves?
Hmm.  Certainly we can see Bilbo being changed. We'll just have to watch for any
real change in any of the them.
   The wargs were not the only 'terrorists'. (Good name for them. ) There are both
wargs and wolves in the story. So much seems to depend on luck in this adventure.
Do you think it was all luck?  I don't really believe much in luck.

  You see much of the same in dreaming, BARB. Dreams are full of symbolic associations,
which can vary widely in their possible meanings. A single symbol can mean different
things, depending on the circumstances of the dream and the dreamer.

  Beorn!   Well, we've all heard of werewolves,  but a werebear?   A vegetarian werebear?!  I love it!  Gandalf warns all the group, repeatedly,  that Beorn has a bad temper and they must be most careful not to offend.  Actually, I've noticed Gandalf can get pretty snappish himself.   
 I really like Beorn.  He loves his animals and loves a good story. 
 Gandalf repeated the warning "Don't leave the path".  so many times,  I find myself dreading that one of them will almost certainly leave the path.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 23, 2012, 06:18:29 PM
How is this for a Hobbit house or maybe an elf house since we are told Hobbits live in holes

(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdwwntbHLZ1qbpgzgo1_500.jpg)
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 24, 2012, 08:52:38 AM
A vegetarian werebear!  Love it.  Bilbo seems to be a vegetarian too, forced to eat mutton and rabbit  when hungry enough. (isn't Bilbo part rabbit? No wonder he doesn't like to eat rabbit!)  He'd prefer tea and toast.  Here at Beorn's he gets those twice-baked cakes and honey - much more to his liking.  Do you know what they are, those twice-baked cakes?

Don't you just KNOW they are going to leave the path, Babi?  I can't imagine an easy trek through Mirkwood, keeping to the path.  Whenever Gandalf leaves the little band, they get in trouble - no wonder they are dismayed to hear he is off again.  But he always shows up when they need him most, doesn't he?
I was thinking that Gandalf is like a guardian angel - but not sure about Beorn yet. He did go check out the Wargs and the Goblins who threaten the dwarves. But a guardian angel remains with you - doesn't leave you in danger.  

 I don't think Beorn  has much respect for the hobbit - but Gandalf still does.  In fact he's telling the dwarves that they'll be fine with Bilbo in their midst - there's more to him than meets the eye.  Do you get the feeling that Gandalf considers Bilbo their guardian? They're told that with a "tremendous slice of luck" they'll make their way through that black forest of Mirkwood.  Luck - and courage.

Gandalf thought that Bilbo was asking him if they really had to go through with it, but he was simply asking if there wasn't another way to continue without going through the dangerous Mirkwood to reach Lonely Mountain.  When Gandalf tells him he must go through "or give up his quest" - I had to stop again and think about Bilbo's "quest."  I understand the dwarves' - but still not sure what Bilbo's is.  Does Bilbo himself know?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 24, 2012, 08:57:34 AM
There it is again - the reference to the dreaded "Necromancer." Don't know why he spooks me more than any of the other goblins, wargs, etc.   I'm glad they decided to go through Mirkwood, rather than to the south where the Necromancer dwells...but afraid that we'll have to meet him somewhere along the way.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 24, 2012, 09:29:29 AM
 I love the little tree trunk house, BARB. Where did you find that?
About Bilbo's quest, it seems to me that whenever he stops to actually think about
it, he wonders what on earth he's doing there.

 A necromancer definitely appears in the LOTR trilogy; don't know if it's the same
one. Maybe he's only here to explain why Gandalf keeps disappearing when the
dwarves and Bilbo could really need him. It would have to be something important.

 I don't see Beorn as disrespectful of Bilbo.  Beorn loves his creatures, and I think he is
enjoying the little Hobbit. So long as his guests are within his realm, they are under his
protection. I think I would feel very safe with him.

Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 24, 2012, 11:47:10 AM
That's a wonderful little "tree house", Barbarba.

JoanP, yes, as Gandalf prepares to leave the group as they enter the Mirkwood forest, he tells them that Mr Baggins "has more about him than you guess, and you will find that out before long." I don't think that Bilbo himself knows his capabilities. He's never gone on an adventure to test them before. This is a huge adventure and Gandalf keeps reminding them that it's a dangerous one... life or death. Bilbo and the dwarves will discover a lot about themselves.

I also had a passing thought that Gandalf might be referencing the ring that Bilbo found when he says, Bilbo "has more about him than you guess."
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 24, 2012, 12:00:58 PM
I also had a passing thought that Gandalf might be referencing the ring that Bilbo found when he says, Bilbo "has more about him than you guess."
Gandalf certainly knows about the ring; he gave Bilbo a very queer look when Bilbo told his escape story to the dwarves without mentioning it.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 24, 2012, 03:10:57 PM
Well I am thinking a Hobbit moved in next to my house sometime this summer - and I fell into the hole -

Wednesday the guys were here from the city to trim the trees near the wires - they called at my request and said they would be here at 8:30 and sure enough the knock on the door - there are two trees that I did not want them hacking into until we could discuss alternatives - the growth on both are my only protection from a street light in front and a barn light off a neighbors house in back -

Walking in only houseshoes (learned my lesson the hard way)  down the side of the house on the deer trail with little grass since last year's sever drought - the path has tree roots exposed and calichie worked up - yep, you guessed it - down I went on my side - trying to grab a tree trunk protected me from a broken arm but a small bone in my foot is broken, a huge baseball size knot on my knee, whacked my hip that affects my spine that is again sore and probably did some nerve damage - we shall see - my shoulder is sore - blood flow into my arm and hand is challenged - what a mess for Thanksgiving - It was just that Hobbit that moved in under the live oak near the AC discharge hose so it could get water and only had to get out of the way when the deer came through.

Thank goodness as embarrassed as I felt the guy from the city was there to help me up - and thank goodness the plan for Thanksgiving was to go out to eat - and yesterday I slept and slept and slept - felt like Bombur because my plan is to take it very easy with lots of naps in hopes by Monday all is well and there will be no further need for any more ex-rays etc.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 24, 2012, 03:11:15 PM
Reading this together so far I was fascinated to see in front of our eyes the quote in action that is something about a story becoming the reader - because we bring to a story our experiences -

We have some seeing Gollum as the twin side of a 'good/bad' within Bilbo - after seeing again the Bill Moyers show with the guest that talked of our dark side in reference to his going to war I could see clearer that viewpoint. I think there are some who saw the good/bad as a metaphor for society - and then, I know I saw Gollum more as the twin side of the neglected and isolated aspects of ourselves - and then some see Gollum as a separate and unique individual rather than the symbolic twin of Bilbo and still others see in Gollum an ancient tradition of Golem - isn't it just fascinating how we each read a story from our own experience and perspective - how rich is this experience we share reading this together - love it...
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on November 24, 2012, 03:22:00 PM
Goodness, Barb: I hope you'll be alright! {{{{{{HUGS}}}}}
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 24, 2012, 03:30:28 PM
An interesting aside - we know that Tolkien incorporated Nordic, Christian and Celtic myth in his stories - seems the main Spider is in her terrible aspect a weaver of destiny and spins the thread of life from its own substance and attaches all men to it as the umbilical cord that binds them to the pattern of the world. The spider represents the world center. - the Christian view is the Spider is the devil that snares sinners and is the miser of the poor where as, mother Holda and the Norns in Scandinavian and Teutonic myth are spinners and weavers of destiny.

http://www.northernpaganism.org/shrines/holda/holdas-rituals/holdas-weaving-blessing.html


this link from the same site explains who is Holda
http://www.northernpaganism.org/shrines/holda/about.html
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 24, 2012, 03:32:03 PM
JoanK thanks - at this point all I can do is try and sleep it off - and laugh as much as possible - and such is life as we age thinking we can do what we did as recently as 5 or 10 years before... :-* :-[
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on November 24, 2012, 04:46:55 PM
I know -- it's always a shock when we suddenly realize we can't.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 24, 2012, 05:06:55 PM
A nap is calling this old Bombur but before I go I've realized - how many distinctive kinds of little people in myths and children's stories - Hobbits, dwarfs, Goblins, Elves, Fairies, Gnomes, Tom-tens, Trolls, Brownies, Hobgoblins, Bodrigis, Duergar, Loki - goodness...found this site that has lots of Fairy tale lore - http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/tfm/index.htm
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 24, 2012, 07:38:10 PM
JoanP, you are quite right to be spooked by the Necromancer.  We don't see a lot of him in The Hobbit, but he is a big part of LOTR, where he is Sauron, the evil one who is trying to rule the world, and a very nasty piece of work.

Tolkien had not yet written, or even worked out the plot, of LOTR when he wrote The Hobbit, but he had already worked out quite a lot of the earlier history of Middle Earth.  Sauron has a long earlier history of evil, defeats, and rising again.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 24, 2012, 10:43:44 PM
Barbara, I hope that you recover from your fall soon. Thanks for the links to the folklore.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 25, 2012, 02:02:34 AM
Maybe the Took house or maybe even Gollum's childhood home with his grandmother

(http://unputdownables.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/124200902195005973_5hc2ycoe_c.jpg?w=443&h=487)
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 25, 2012, 07:58:57 AM
Barbara - you are getting the best advice here- rest, sleep! You've provided us with so much to think about and talk about...don't worry about us.

PatH- I think the reason  the Necromancer spooks me is his communication with the dead... Tolkien's imagination knows few limits. He probably touches on at least one fear we each have. Those spiders...fear of heights, etc. I read through the link on folklore - didn't see Necromancer. There was so much there though.  Probably read right past it.

I wasn't aware that he did the drawings for the 1938 edition - including the cover illustration shown in the heading.
I found his illustration for Mirkwood...

(http://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/a/a4/J.R.R._Tolkien_-_Mirkwood.jpg)
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on November 25, 2012, 08:11:18 AM
Barb, I wish you a speedy recovery.

Re the little houses. I used to occasionally work on Faerie Magazine dedicated to all things fairy. It seems people put these little houses in their gardens so that traveling fairies have a place to stay overnight. I remember seeing an article or two about how to make them, where to place them in the garden, pictures of people's fairy houses and gardens, etc. Looking through their website I noticed that there are two fairy festivals held each year very near to me.

Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 25, 2012, 08:24:33 AM
It was so essential to the tale that the dwarves and Bilbo leave the path through Mirkwood, wasn't it?  Did Gandalf and Beorn know this when they warned them not to? Were the warnings their way of preparing them for the danger they were facing? I'm wondering what the moral for disobeying orders or warnings will turn out to be...

My beautiful annotated edition has this note by Tolkien in a letter to his grandson in 1966:

"Mirkwood is not an invention of mine, but a very ancient name, weighted with legendary associations. It was probably the Primitive Germanic name for the great mountainous forest regions that anciently formed a barrier to the south of the lands of Germanic expansion...especially of the boundary between Goths and Huns."
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 25, 2012, 08:32:25 AM
Good morning, Fry. You've had some fascinating work experiences!  Did you put up a little fairy house in your own garden? :)

It's difficult for me to imagine the elves had such sweet dwelling places - in Mirkwood!
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 25, 2012, 08:46:51 AM
Good morning all.

"Mirkwood is not an invention of mine, but a very ancient name, weighted with legendary associations.
This is true of a lot of the things in Tolkien.  I suspect that it adds to the effectiveness--the names and legends and characters have stood the test of time.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 25, 2012, 09:32:41 AM
 BARB, where are you finding these wonderful little make-believe houses? Any child
would be enchanted with them. Shuck, I'm enchanted with them. And thanks for the
Mirkwood illustration, too. My '37 edition is illustrated, but doesn't have that
one.  

 FRYBABE, I had no idea there was a 'faerie' following. What a charming idea. May
we hope you will attend on ot the festivals, and tell us all about it?

  Well, it really became a matter of leave the path or sit here and die, didn't it?  I may need to
take another look at that section, but I don't believe they left the path heedlessly.

  Look at the jeering names.  'Tomnoddy' and 'Attercop'.  Can't you imagine a child being tickled with those words?  I can just hear one shouting to another,  "Tomnoddy, tomnoddy!"     I'm surprised it hasn't entered the common language.   Tomnoddy, perhaps, might be related to our 'tomfool'.   With a stre-e-etch of the imaginaton,  attercop might be translated into addlepate.  How about 'lazy Lob'  and 'crazy Cob'?   What would a lob
or a cob be?  Any ideas?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 25, 2012, 10:09:30 AM
Attercop turns out to mean spider.  My book says it comes from Old English, and the OED lists it as obsolete or dialectical.  Possibly some of Tolkien's readers would recognize it.  My book also says that lob and cob mean spider.  I guess that's where cobweb comes from.

While we are on words, my book also says that Beorn is an Old English word for "man, warrior", but originally meant "bear".  Appropriate, since it's unclear which Beorn is.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JudeS on November 25, 2012, 01:59:53 PM
Joan P
Sorry that I put my answer re:The Golem to YOUR question in the name of Joan K.

Someone asked what kind of Hobbit is Gollum. He is Stoor Hobbit of the River folk who lived near Gladden Falls.

I find it somewhat weird talking about these characters as though they are real with histories, dwelling places, and appetites.
I never felt that way about the odd  creatures in "Harry Potter" or "The Chronicles of Narnia."
But in those books there were human characters to mediate the weirdness I find here.

Also someone asked who is telling the story. Tolkien is telling it in the voice of an Omnipent observer of  the events as they happen as well as of the background. This makes it, for me, more of a Fairy Tale than a novel. (A lo-o-o-ong fairy tale).
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 25, 2012, 03:13:52 PM
Yes, I see Tolkien as the narrator too, Jude - an omniscient observer who sees the whole picture, slowly unravelling the story as he entertains his own children...I can hear his voice, as if he's reading it to us.  Someone said it's best to read it out loud.  I agree with that!  

Quote
"Well, it really became a matter of leave the path or sit here and die, didn't it?"
 Babi - remember how the dwarves wanted to know how much further they had to go - and hoisted Bilbo high in the tree to see if they were almost through?  Bilbo made a mistake, misjudged, and told them there was no end in sight.  They probably would have made it safely, had they not left the path.  But look what Bilbo would have missed - the realization that he is a fiercer, bolder person than he knew...that he is capable of more than blowing smoke rings, cooking bacon and deciphering riddles...
I'm wondering if this was all part of Gandalf's plan or did he expect them to heed his warning?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: mabel1015j on November 25, 2012, 04:05:20 PM
Noticed this notation on "BlogHer" site thought you might want to take a look, or comment on her blog.

http://www.blogher.com/blogher-reads-hobbit#comments
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 25, 2012, 05:30:19 PM

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

 November Book Club Online
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hobbit/hobbitcover.jpg)
 The Hobbit turns 75 this fall, an occasion likely to cause many thousands of people to reflect with fondness on their childhood memories of the adventures of Bilbo Baggins.

Though a much loved and widely respected children’s book, this work is too often overlooked by adults who relegate it to the nursery bookshelf.  "The Hobbit is a brilliantly constructed story unfolding themes that adult readers will still find compellingly relevant to the modern world: themes such as the nature of evil and the significance of human choice, or the corruptive power of greed and the ease with which good people can be drawn into destructive conflict." Corey Olsen is an Assistant Professor of English at Washington College in Maryland

 Bilbo Baggins begins as a cautious and conservative hobbit, well respected and considered a pillar of the hobbit community. When he reluctantly sets out on a quest to recover the stolen treasure of a band of dwarves, he encounters dangers of all descriptions. His adventures, which figure prominently in a prophecy of the dwbarves, are like stepping stones on the inner journey Biblo must take to find his courage. Bilbo faces trials which again and again force him to look deep inside himself for the strength and resourcefulness he needs to complete the task expected of him.

Discussion Schedule
Ch 1 - 3 Nov 12-16
Ch 4 - 6 Nov 17-21
Ch 7 - 8 Nov 22-26
Ch 9 - 12 Nov 27-Dec 1
Ch 13 - 15 Dec 2-5 Now Discussing
Ch 16 - 18 Dec 6-9
Ch 19 and overall Dec 10-13

Questions for Consideration

To notice for the whole book:

Tolkien incorporated many elements of myth, legend, and fairy tale.  What ones do you see?  Are they effective?

The story takes place in Middle Earth.  Is this our world?  How is it the same or different?

The Hobbit is a prelude to The Lord of the Rings.  If you are familiar with LOTR, notice which elements are present here, and what differences there are.

What different races of creatures do we meet?  What is each like?

Chapter 9.

1. After the dwarves (and invisible Bilbo) have been captured by the Wood elves, why does Bilbo say "I am like a burglar that can't get away, but must go on miserably burgling the same house day after day."

2. How do the dwarves respond to Bilbo's efforts? Do you think their perceptions of Bilbo are part of Gandalf's reasons for leaving them?

3. What were some of the key steps in Bilbo and the dwarves' escape from the dungeons of the Wood elves?

Chapter 10.

1. As the group floats toward the Long Lake, Bilbo is able to see the Mountain. What are his impressions of it?

2. What does it mean that "Bilbo had come in the end by the only road that was any good"?

3. How does Thorin take charge in Lake Town?

4.  What is the reaction of the Lake Town men to the dwarves? Why? How have they learned about the possible mission of the dwarves?

5. What is the reaction of the King of the Wood elves?

Chapter 11.

1. What are some symbols of magic that appear in this chapter?

2. What else did you think was important?

Chapter 12.

1. What did Bilbo mean when he said "third time pays for all"?

2. How are the dwarves characterized?

3. Describe the "bravest thing" that Bilbo ever did.

4.  How is Smaug, the dragon, and his hoard described?

5. What did Bilbo take from Smaug and how did  he respond?

6. With the dwarves looking to Bilbo for advice and leadership every step of the way, do you see evidence of Bilbo's growing self-confidence? Development of a philosophical side?

7. What are some key events that you think important in this chapter?

 
Discussion Leaders:    PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net ); Marcie (marciei@aol.com), Babi (pmg371@aol.com), Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com )

Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 25, 2012, 05:43:37 PM
Thanks for the blog, mabel1015j.  I think I'll at least lurk.

Judy, it seems to me that the fairy story aspect gets particularly intense in Chapter 8 (flies and spiders), and not always to good effect.  We start out with two common fairy story elements--the spectral hunt, and the river of forgetfulness.  They both add to the creepy feeling of the woods, but seem kind of irrelevant to the story.  The elves' disappearing feast is another fairy story bit, but it is totally relevant, since it lures them from the path, and the elves capture Thorin.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 25, 2012, 07:09:27 PM
I thought for sure I would find more explanation as to why warriors display trophy fashion their conquests - is it to scare away the enemy or what - so far all I find is it is a practice that goes back to Homer and it is a problem among troops in Afghanistan.

Quote
In Homer's epics, warriors always tried to bring home the armour and weapons of opponents they killed, while their late foes' comrades would try to retrieve them. Thus in The Iliad there is a big fight for the arms of Patroclus, which is ultimately won by Hector. The Odyssey mentions the dispute between Ajax and Odysseus for the right to Achilles' arms, after the two had brought Achilles' body back to the Greek camp after Achilles' death.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 25, 2012, 09:00:23 PM
JoanP, I love that illustration of Mirkwood, (only it doesn't look scary to me). The description and the atmosphere in the book make it VERY scary and oppressive. Yes, Bilbo didn't recognize that the tree he climbed was in a kind of valley so that there was no way to see above and beyond the trees that surrounded it. You are right that the mistake gave him the opportunity to show how resourceful and courageous  he could be. It's nice to find out that he has skills that we haven't been told about (such as throwing rocks with great accuracy!)

Babi, The attercop and Tomnoddy song is so much fun.

Pat, I appreciate your explaining the meaning of some of those words. They are fun on their own but it's interesting that they have greater significance than their sound.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 26, 2012, 07:53:26 AM
Hats, are you still traveling along with us?  How was your Thanksgiving?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 26, 2012, 07:59:04 AM
But look what Bilbo would have missed - the realization that he is a fiercer, bolder person than he knew...that he is capable of more than blowing smoke rings, cooking bacon and deciphering riddles...
I'm glad you brought this up, JoanP.  The battle with the spider is an important turning point for Bilbo, and we should talk about it some.

Someone said it's best to read it out loud.  I agree with that! 
That was JoanK.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 26, 2012, 10:07:28 AM
 How neat, PAT. I didn't find either word in my dictionary, and my book doesn't
have that helpful note. Cobweb... Now I'm trying to think of any 'lob' connection
to spiders.

 I hadn't thought of it before, JUDE, but the human characters are very few in
this book, aren't they? I was thinking, at one point, that this might be a
characteristic of 'middle earth'.  There is a reference to an earlier, more
glorious, era. So I find myself noticing references that might have survived to
a later earth. Animals, plants, etc. that still survive.

 Ah, yes, thank you, JOANP. I knew there was something. And of course, it had to
happen so the story could develop as it did. So that Bilbo could develop as he
did. I really think Gandalf wanted them to stay on the path. He had no reason
to think they could survive leaving it.

  Oh, dear, JEAN. I can't imagine Bilbo, or the character in black in the rear that I
take to be Thorin, to look at all like that. Where is Bilbo's little round belly?
And standing next to Gandalf, the 'dwarf' is much too tall. I hope this isn't
going to distract me from enjoying the film.

   
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 26, 2012, 10:44:38 AM
Babi, I had the same reaction both to the blog picture and the New Zealand Air film.  The hobbits look too skinny and tall, and so do the dwarfs.  We'll have to hope for the best.  Jackson did very well in LOTR.  You can make actors look shorter with camera tricks.  The actor who played the dwarf Gimli (he's the son of the Gloin who is in this book) is actually pretty tall--I've seen him elsewhere.  And Gollum is very well done.  He is described inconsistently in the books, but the movie figure fits the most common description.

Ooops, JoanP, I mixed up credits.  JoanK said how rhythmical the writing was, but you suggested reading it aloud.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 26, 2012, 10:48:04 AM
Babi, yes, it's often that characters I imagine in a book are not like the actors cast in a film but sometimes, I'm able to accept them and enjoy the film version too. An interesting cast for the film.... Martin Freeman (Dr. Watson in BBC's "Sherlock Holmes") as Bilbo and Benedict Cumberbatch (Sherlock) as Smaug, the dragon.

Pat, yes, I think that it is worth spending some more time on the fight with the spiders. It's Bilbo's first opportunity to display life-or-death bravery when the great spider tries to tie him up and Bilbo fights him off and kills him with his sword. It's also the event that causes Bilbo to name his sword.

"The spider lay dead beside him, and his sword-blade was stained black. Somehow the killing of the giant spider, all alone by himself in the dark without the help of the wizard or the dwarves or anyone else, made a great difference to Mr. Baggins. He felt a different person, and much fiercer and bolder in spite of an empty stomach, as he wiped his sword on the grass and put it back into its empty sheath. 'I will give you a name,' he said to it, 'and I will call you Sting.'"

Even in the description, we get some of Tolkien's good sense of  humor with his references to Bilbo's empty stomach. I guess hobbits are always thinking of food.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 26, 2012, 10:55:21 AM
But, they go hand in hand, don't they?  You can  hear the rhythm in the writing when you read it out loud... It's almost begging to be read aloud.

Marcie, that's funny - Tolkien's own illustration of Mirkwood doesn't seem as forbidding as his description did in the writing.  I think it was the oppressive silence that impressed me most...the silence on the path, with the rumbling, rustling noises in the darkness off the path.  Did you notice when they left the path, the growth was all tangled with the thick webs, that made it difficult to move around...but the path had been miraculously free of those webs.  Did that puzzle you?  Made me wonder who had prepared the path for the dwarves...or who was protecting them, as long as they stayed on the path, of course.

The dwarves left the path because they were starving.  Bilbo was starving too...I noticed he followed the dwarves when they left it.  Not sure he would have done that if the decision had been left up to him.  At this point, the dwarves don't have respect for his opinion.  But after his courage and valor fighting the spiders, everything has changed. 

I was thinking he was going to tell the dwarves about the ring...but he really didn't do that, did he?

Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 26, 2012, 11:33:22 AM
JoanP, yes, it seems that like the area where the Wood-elves had their feasts, the path has some magic about it that keeps the spiders and other bad things away.

The dwarves do seem to know about the ring now. After Bilbo cuts them all down from their cocoons in the tree, he has to disappear in order to save them all. "In the end Bilbo could think of no plan except to let the dwarves into the secret of his ring. He was rather sorry about it but it could not be helped. [my note: the ring seems to be exerting its power over him in that Bilbo is sorry to have to tell them about it]. 'I am going to disappear,' he said. I shall draw the spiders off, if I can...." It was difficult to get them to understand, what with their dizzy heads, and the shouts, and the whacking of sticks and the throwing of stones; but at last Bilbo felt he could delay no longer-- the spiders were drawing their circle ever closer. He suddenly slipped on his ring and, to the great astonishment of the dwarves he vanished."

After the spiders finally give up the chase, the dwarves respect for Bilbo had grown immensely. "Knowing the truth about the vanishing did not lessen their opinion of Bilbo at all; for they saw that he had some wits, as well as luck and a magic ring-- and all three are very useful possessions."
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 26, 2012, 01:00:59 PM
I wonder Marcie do you think the path represents the straight and narrow as in how we are advised to live our life - it appears only by being adventurous and getting off the path are there encounters that allowed Bilbo personal growth and so all the advise about staying on the path along with the safety the path afforded is baffling.

And yes JoanP the graphic of the forest does not seem scary - a beautifully done typical 1930s illustration of trees and roots - however, I remember seeing one of my first movies in 1938 with my mother and kid sister - we saw Snow White and there were times we were crying so hard my mother had to take us out of the viewing area and then when we returned anytime we thought it would be scary we hid our faces in my mothers arms. Where as today I do not see the youngest child of 2 or 3 showing any signs of being frightened by the witch  or Snow White being lost in the forest. And so it may be the illustration in the 1930s appeared scary to children that today we see as a lovely ink drawing.

If the spiders represent destiny than how lovely - Bilbo would have fought his destiny and come out a fiercer and bolder Bilbo rather than the homebody content to sit by his cottage and smoke his pipe - this is the first encounter we do not hear him talk about his longing for home. They sure are a hungry lot - for just about every encounter they are soooo hungry.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 26, 2012, 05:22:20 PM
I'm glad JoanP found that Mirkwood illustration; I didn't have a lot of luck finding illustrations to post.  Tolkien did a number of illustrations for his books, and the Hobbit ones are supposed to be his best.  They are all somewhat stylized, like the book cover and Mirkwood, but they give us a notion of how Tolkien saw things.  Beorn's hall looks like a Norse mead-hall; it could have come straight out of Beowulf.  Unfortunately, he didn't draw the characters much.  The only drawing of Bilbo is so tiny that you can't make much of it.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 26, 2012, 09:04:24 PM
Barbara, it's possible that the path is the "straight and narrow." As the narrator said before, he's not going to describe what happens in much detail when all is going well (if they stay on the path). It's only when "adventure" happens that we get to hear the story!

Is this the tiny Bilbo drawn by Tolkien, Pat? http://www.bodleianshop.co.uk/bilbo-woke-up-with-the-early-sun-in-his-eyes-poster.html

The eagle is large but Bilbo is miniscule. You can enlarge it a bit by holding your mouse over the picture.

Here is another illustration by Tolkien... of Bilbo's  home: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/sep/21/bilbo-baggins-75th-anniversary

Wow, did you read this? "Only a small selection of the hundreds of drawings done by Tolkien were included in the original edition of The Hobbit, and although the artwork, held by the Tolkien estate, has since been published in a special edition book – with a sneak peak on the Guardian website (http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/gallery/2011/oct/24/hobbit-tolkien-in-pictures) – it has never received widespread publication."

Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 26, 2012, 10:41:57 PM
That one with the eagle is the one I referred to.  With the zoom, you can actually see Bilbo.  The one of his home is new to me, and shows him quite clearly.  Thanks, Marcie.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 27, 2012, 02:18:51 AM
We're moving now to chapters 9-12 but we can continue to talk about anything in previous chapters. The "adventure" part of the adventure has started in the last chapter and now we're in for more. Bilbo and his relationship with the dwarves is changing.

After the dwarves (and invisible Bilbo) have been captured by the Wood elves, why does Bilbo say "I am like a burglar that can't get away, but must go on miserably burgling the same house day after day."
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 27, 2012, 08:56:57 AM
Can you imagine what it was like to have Tolkien as a father - spinning such bedtime yarns as these?  The boys must have had wild dreams - and nightmares!  I imagine the drawings came later when the tales were published.

Bilbo may have discovered that he is bolder than he thought...found his courage - but is he happy?   He can't leave the dwarves, so in a sense, he's captive too.  He needs to burgle the elf house for food, day after day, which he was able to do - as Mr. Invisibility.
He's regretting that they didn't heed Beorn's advice - and Gandalf's - wishes they had never left the path- the straight and narrow.  Not only is he alone, the only one not captured by the Wood elves...but he is struck with the realization that if anything was to happen...he would have to do it - "alone and unaided."  It's lonely being responsible, having every one rely on you.  Gandalf would recognize this feeling.

I notice he's wishing himself back by the fireside in his hobbit hole again, Marcie.

About that ring...I have to say that I was surprised that the dwarves showed so little interest in the little ring when Bilbo told them about it.  They were smithies.. dwarves probably crafted this ring at one time, don't you think?  I can't believe that he actually showed them the ring...but did explain to the dwarves that he was able to become invisible because he found something that made this possible.  Does his courage rely on the ring?  On the ring alone?  What if he loses it?  Or gives it to Thorin?  Would he then lose the respect of the other dwarves?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 27, 2012, 09:10:22 AM
The description of the Elvenking's crown of berries and red leaves reminded me that it is early Autumn, and I thought of Elron's translation of the runes on Thorin's grandfather's map...  that light will shine on the little keyhole to the treasure when the last light of Durin's Day will shine on it.  I made a note that Durin's Day is first day of the dwarves' new year - which falls on the first day of the last moon of Autumn.  

I found this illustration - the king doesn't jive with my mental image of an elf...but then...I don't know what elves look like.  I wonder if Tolkien left any drawings of him.  My interest centered on the crown of berries and red leaves, which tell us that the end of Autumn is near...

(http://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/thumb/e/e5/Anke_Ei%C3%9Fmann_-_Thranduil.jpg/250px-Anke_Ei%C3%9Fmann_-_Thranduil.jpg)

This is how the king was protrayed in the 1977 film of The Hobbit -

(http://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/thumb/7/77/The_Hobbit_%281977_film%29_-_Thranduil.jpg/180px-The_Hobbit_%281977_film%29_-_Thranduil.jpg)
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 27, 2012, 09:54:46 AM
 MARCIE, I think that genius for understatement is one of the things I enjoy
most about Tolkien's humor. "..they saw that he had some wits, as well as luck and
a magic ring-- and all three are very useful possessions." 
'Useful', indeed!

 The 'straight and narrow' is a very basic tenet in raising the young. I can readily
believe Tolkien intended it as one of his 'lessons'. But it's also a basic with
the young that they are going to stray off the path on occasion, and learn the
lesson the hard way. So I don't see it as baffling, BARB.

 I'm must say I didn't care for the illustration of Bilbo. (The one in his home) It
does not seem to me to fit the written description of him. What happened to the fat
stomach, the feet covered with curly brown hair, and the long brown fingers?

JOANP, the first illustration fits my romantic ideas of elves much better than the
second. There are two very different versions of the mythology of elves. Tolkien is
presenting one of them. The other version presents them as small, troublesome tricksters,
more like my idea of gremlins.

  Well, here are the dwarves, captives again!  I would say that Balin certainly needs to learn a bit of diplomacy, particularly if one is under arrest in someone else's country!   Still, in my ideal, elves are supposed to be wise.  I was surprised when the Elvenking did not accept the rather obvious fact that the dwarves did NOT attack them, but were simply tired, hungry and  seeking aid.  Elves are supposed to offer these things.  So different from Elrond's welcome.
    Each one in a separate cell.  That's 12 cells, right?  Doesn't that seem like a rather large dungeon for a community of wood-elves?  ( You can see that I have a great many pre-conceptions of how elves are supposed to behave. )

 
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 27, 2012, 10:44:48 AM
It looks like we each have our own conceptions of elves and dwarves.... and wizards too, I suspect. (I kept thinking that Gandalf should have more power than he showed. Why couldn't he make all of the wolves disappear or turn them to stone or something when he and the dwarves were caught up in the trees)?

Babi, I get the feeling that dwarves don't have a very good reputation among the Wood-elves. The elves think of them as thiefs. The dwarves don't explain why they are in the Wood-elves territory. In fact, they do plan to burgle the dragon's lair, though the dwarves do believe that much of that property belonged to them in the first place.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 27, 2012, 11:36:18 AM
The first elf picture fits my notion of their looks.  Elves are more fully described in LOTR, and they aren't little, they're tall and graceful, mostly with dark hair and grey eyes, though some have golden hair.

I just found a site with a lot of Tolkien's pictures.

http://www.theonering.com/galleries/professional-artists/g23/the-elven-king-apos-s-gate-j-r-r-tolkien (http://www.theonering.com/galleries/professional-artists/g23/the-elven-king-apos-s-gate-j-r-r-tolkien)

This puts you in the middle.  You can see the rest with "previous image" and "next image" at the bottom of the pictures, but if you go too far, you get pictures by other artists.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on November 27, 2012, 03:34:19 PM
They're starting to show promos for "The Hobbit" on TV here. Boy, I sure hope the acting is better in the rest of the movie than in the promo. I wouldn't wait with bated breath for this one!
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 27, 2012, 07:15:49 PM
ah such a handsome elfin king in the first picture - not just his face but his presence and the crown of berries and the embroidery on his shirt - just wonderful.

And yes, I do find it baffling - because we know that wisdom and becoming an effective adult happens by having adventures rather than staying on the straight and narrow - the straight and narrow pleases adults when you are a child but does not prepare you to be creative or use your wits - the boy / girls thing again, where we are delighted telling stories of boys who waver off the straight and narrow and sharing all their exploits but we still show disapproval when girls go into the forests.

It annoys me to no end with someone is taking off on a trip and folks say, be safe or be careful rather than, have a great trip or we know you'll have a great trip, or even, practice your best wits, let us know when you arrive, we want to hear all about it, if you get stuck just call.

I am seeing the ring like a talisman or like carrying an emblem that reminds you of your strength as some folks carry a medal or a rosary or they wear a signet ring from the school they graduated - not just in pride but it represents something they either accomplished or a connection to their faith - I think the ring may be Bilbo's talisman that reminds him of his first act of courage leaping over Gollum as well as its magic properties. And like all our personal talisman's they are of little interest to others because they cannot tap into the feelings of what the talisman represents. And so I am thinking the elves have their own issues and worries and as long as Bilbo can help that is all that matters.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JudeS on November 27, 2012, 07:39:54 PM
Barb
You are so good and positive and approving in your opinion of Bilbo I feel really bad disagreeing. But I will..just a bit.

You compare the Invisibility Ring to a class ring or a medal or a rosary. These are symbolic items.  The Ring that Bilbo found and hasn't told anyone about, does actual activity. It is a ring that makes you invisible . This is analagous to the invisibility cloak in Harry Potter. These items have serious magical powers . They are not symbolic items carried for comfort or as a reminder of strength.
The fact that he hasn't shared this powerful item with anyone shows something about his character too. All is not as simple as it seems. What it shows is still not clear. I am not sure that Bilbo's other name is" perfection" or "braveheart".
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 27, 2012, 07:46:03 PM
JoanK, I know what  you mean about the trailer for The Hobbit film. It doesn't exactly suck me into the world of Bilbo the way the book has but I do think (hope) that I'll enjoy it...likely on DVD since I don't go to the movies much.

Thanks for the link to the Tolkien pictures site, Pat. I love his drawings.

Barbara, that's an interesting idea about the ring being, at least in part, a talisman for Bilbo. Jude, you bring up some good points, especially about the character of Bilbo in relation to the ring. The ring does seem to have serious magic in the power it holds over the possessor of the ring. Who/what is possessing whom? Could the ring turn Bilbo into another Gollum?

At this point in the adventure, though, the ring seems to be crucial to the safety of Bilbo and possibly his freedom and that of the dwarves.  Bilbo is in the dungeon of the Wood elves and able to go about somewhat freely while being sure not to cast a shadow or make noise or bump into anyone.  He's spending some of his time exploring and locating all of the dwarves. How are the dwarves responding to Bilbo's efforts?



Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 27, 2012, 08:16:52 PM
ah so magic - yep, I believed when I was a kid - in some ways still believe - yep, every year we put out our shoes with some hay and a carrot along with our note and - what do you know - our shoes, that we wore everyday became the thing that brought magic and so we cried and cried when it was time to get new shoes - ok you are all smiling now - this is all said in flighty, smiley, irony laced with childhood memories - but with a smattering of truth -

For years when I travel I always wear my lucky shirt and no plane crashes or auto accidents in aaaalll these years as I take my annual trek to North Carolina - yep, and the one time I taped up the front door so the wind would not blow it open while I was gone is the only time someone took the boxes I had delivered and arrived before I got home - that is a Fung shui -

Yep, I believe - a talisman can be magic as long as we think it is magic and watch that no one sees our shadow or hears us or of course sees us - we can move like the wind just like the mice when they get into the garage - never do see them but oh you can smell them - hmmm wonder if Bilbo has a distinct hobbit scent...  ::)  ;)  :)
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 28, 2012, 09:55:28 AM
 MARCIE, I'm firmly convinced that Gandalf does have more power than he is revealing.
But like a wise man, he prefers to keep some surprises in store for times of need.
I strongly suspect that he was throwing fire, while at the same time secretly
calling for the eagles.
   You have a point; the dwarves really should have given a sound reason for being
there at all. Balin's big mouth probably had a lot to do with the treatment they
received.

 Thanks for that link, PAT. My edition had the first two illustrations, but not the
'Mountain King's Gate". Impressive. It enabled me to picture how the dwarves set up
their defenses.

 All the same, BARB, how would you feel if you got many  more wounds than you needed
to, because your elders never warned you?  I once said to my Dad that "I want to make
my own mistakes."  He replied, "You'll make plenty. Let me keep you from a few."

 
Quote
How are the dwarves responding to Bilbo's efforts?
  Typically, I would say, MARCIE.
Complaining, as usual. Some resentment and mockery thrown in.   I wonder that Bilbo
doesn't just leave the dwarves, with their constant complaining.  It's their mission,
after all. Bilbo keeps bailing them out of trouble, and they keep complaining about how
he does it. After a 'thank you', of course,  and  a 'your servant, sir'. I was so pleased when Bilbo finally said, "Very well!  Come along back to your  nice cells, and I will lock you all in again,  and you can sit there comfortably and think of a better plan - .."
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 28, 2012, 10:02:50 AM
Nearly all of the illustrations we're seeing by Tolkien are landscapes, aren't they?  Very few of the dwarves, elves, hobbits.  It's almost as if he's providing the stage, but leaving the characters to the imagination of the reader.  I did find this one hobbit drawing - trying to figure out if it is a drawing of Bilbo by Tolkien himself, or just included in the newly released book - The Art of the Hobbit - The line drawing does suggest Tolkien's style, doesn't it?

(http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OB-UR544_bilbo_DV_20120921182240.jpg) http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2012/09/22/j-r-r-tolkiens-illustrations-for-the-hobbit-slideshow/
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 28, 2012, 10:19:10 AM
Quote
"I wonder that Bilbo doesn't just leave the dwarves, with their constant complaining."

 Babi, do you really think that Bilbo has that much courage, even with the magic ring, to leave the dwarves in the Wood elves' prison cells and go off on his own? Or too  much of a sense of responsibility to leave them?  Pretty clever the way he gave them a choice...either get in those barrels and float out of the prison...or go back to their cells.  He knew they'd have to follow his plan. Let's add this cleverness to the growing list of his new-found abilities.

Barb - I'm going to have to go with the "magic" theory.  He became invisible when wearing that ring.  That can't be explained by anything other than magic...or can it?  The confidence and realization of his abilities are due to his own courage in the face of impossible odds.  The ring has come in handy in tight situations...but I don't see him relying on it.

I've a map - Thorin's father's map - in the front of my paperback.  The places on the map are familiar - it seems they are nearing the Lonely Mountain.  I'm wondering if by going through the Elf king's property they haven't saved time.  What was the original plan had they followed the path through Mirkwood? Was the plan to go around it?  Notice the air getting chillier now.  Must be coming through Autumn, don't you think?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 28, 2012, 10:56:02 AM
I'm glad you mentioned the map, JoanP.  I like Tolkien's drawings very much, but I have issues with his maps.  They often aren't very clear, they're geographically unlikely, and the reproductions in some books are fuzzy, making it harder to make sense of them.  Thror's map doesn't look muddy, but when you try to match it up with the other map, you realize that it's pointing a different way; north is at the left, and east is at the top of the map.  (Tolkien said somewhere that he was following the dwarfish convention.)  And although there is a hand pointing to the back door, it's not clear exactly what the hand is pointing to.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 28, 2012, 12:07:00 PM
Babi, it seems that the dwarves are automatically going to Bilbo for a plan and a way out of the dungeons. He's become their leader, although that doesn't stop them, as you say, from complaining.

JoanP and PatH, I'll have to take another look at the map. I can read street maps but I admit that I am geographically challenged. I always tend to turn in the opposite direction from where I parked my car or I want to get on the freeway going north if I am unfamiliar with the city when I am supposed to go south.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 29, 2012, 09:39:29 AM
 Ah, good. In this illustration I can see the little rounded tummy. More hair on the legs
than the feet, tho'.  The face simply seems too ordinarily human. I have such a vivid
picture in my mind of Bilbo, and I prefer it to this one.

 That same quandary was in my mind, JOANP. If Bilbo did decide to go home, how could he
make it alone?  :-\

 PATH, seeing it's all fantasy, I suppose 'geographically unlikely' could be acceptable.
I did find it a bit exasperating, trying to figure out the movements of men, elves, etc.
as they closed in on the mountain. I think that first map could be a sort of guideline to
the different places, scenes,etc. that Tolkien planned to develop in his tale. A sort of
rough sketch.

 The dwarves are relying more on Bilbo, MARCIE. It seems to me most of the dwarves are
followers. Good fighters, ready to follow orders, etc.  Fully exercising the soldiers
right to gripe. But not up to planning strategy. Thorin should be their 'general', but
that doesn't seem to be his strong suit. Perhaps we should think of him as 'the king'
in need of a good general...like Gandalf. Or now, Bilbo.

  In any case, they do get away and arrive alive, if somewhat battered and half-drowned, at
the lake town.   Ah, another warm reception,  with food, comfort, fresh clothes and comfortable beds.  Rest and restoration.  The mayor things it's all a con,  but the majority of the citizens think this is the wonderful fulfillment of a legend.  And who knows...if the dwarves really do slay a dragon and bring out treasure, the mayor will be sure he gets a good share of it.  For the first time,  our adventurers are dealing with the species mankind.  Actually,  the over-all reaction sounds quite believable.


   
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 29, 2012, 09:41:54 AM
This may be way too big to post.  Clearly the dwarves...and Bilbo...are nearing the Lonely Mountain...as the leaves have fallen, the air gets chillier and autumn comes to an end...

(http://corecanvas.s3.amazonaws.com/theonering-0188db0e/gallery/original/thorins_map.jpg)
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 29, 2012, 10:07:05 AM
"What does it mean that "Bilbo had come in the end by the only road that was any good"?

Wasn't their imprisonment in the Elvenking's castle fortunate, after all?  Was it just luck that Bilbo had found the only way out ...the river, the only road not flooded.    That water is cold!  The little hobbit is soaking wet the whole way, not packed in straw as the dwarves were.  Couldn't you feel it?  That took more than courage...it took fortitude!  How would the dwarves have been freed from those crates if Bilbo had not been free to to get them out?  
At first I thought that Gandalf had something to do with their survival, but now we learn that he has just been informed of the flooded pathways - and is on his way to help.  Won't he be surprised when he learns that Bilbo has managed to get them on the way to the Lonely Mountain in time for Durin's Day?

Were you proud of Thorin as he stormed into the Master's feast and announced his ancestry, Babi?  Not that the Master fully believed him.  Both the Master of Men and the Elvenking have adapted a wait-see attitude.

So they are ready to move on - to slay the dragon...unarmed still?  Marcie, do you think the dwarves will continue to go to Bilbo for a plan?  Is he still their learder or will they now look to Thorin for leadership?

Things are looking good for the dwarves' quest. Remember that Bilbo still has the ring in his possession...and "Sting" hidden in his pants.  Oh, and Gandalf on the way too...

Do you think the revelation that  Fili and Kili are Thorin's first cousins will be important?  Do you suppose the other ten dwarves are also related?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 29, 2012, 10:42:38 AM
Babi and JoanP, it seems to me too that the dwarves rely on Bilbo, the planner and decision maker while, as you say Babi, "fully exercising the soldiers right to gripe." They've entrusted themselves to Bilbo because of the good judgement and courage that he's shown so far, as well as good luck and magic.

JoanP, it seems that even Gandalf and Beorn didn't know the conditions of the eastern edge of the elf road, due to recent floods and earthquakes. It seems to be sheer luck that Bilbo brought the dwarves, in barrels, on the only road (the river) that was open.

Joan, I too thought it a nice change that Thorin announced himself and his group with such command at the Master's feast. It looks like when it comes to his ancestry, property and traditions, Thorin is in his "element." As you indicate, the Master thinks it's a con but many of the townspeople believe that the old songs about the river turning to gold with the return of the dwarves. It's possible that all of the dwarves are related. I'm not sure yet of the significance of the relationships, except that Thorin is the son of Thráin II, the King of Durin's Folk in their exile from Erebor, and the grandson of King Thrór.

The group now sets out on the last stage of their journey which takes them to the Mountain and the doorstep of the dragon's lair. What is the atmosphere of the Desolation of the Dragon? What are some of the symbols of magic  you noticed in this section?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 29, 2012, 11:36:07 PM
It looks like we may have lost a few of us dwarves along the path.    ;) We're getting to the exciting part of finally meeting the dragon! Are you still catching up with the reading? Are we going too fast?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 30, 2012, 09:27:45 AM
Thorin announcing his ancestry was a very dramatic scene, JOAN. The master, a true
politician, is all smiles, inward cynicism, and a resolve to profit from the situation
one way or another.  Oh, I do hope we see him eventually get his 'come-uppance'. Were
Fili and Kili cousins?  I was thinking they were nephews. Either way, they would be
doubly bound and loyal to Thorin.

  What about the associations made with ravens and crows, MARCIE?  The crows are
associated with gloomy thoughts.  The ravens are praised as messengers.  The crows, like
buzzards, follow armies to feast on the dead.  Wouldn't ravens do the same?  Both birds
appear in various traditions.
  This looks like a good summary on the subject:  http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/othermagicspells/p/The-Magic-Of-Crows-And-Ravens.htm
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 30, 2012, 10:21:12 AM
Still reading Marcie...early part of Chapter XII. Can't believe we're going inside to meet the Dragon.  I'm guessing that he won't be home when the dwarves get inside.

Thorin introduced  Kili and Fili as sons of his father's daughter.  So you're right, Babi - they would be Thorin's nephews then.  I noticed that Thorin selected them to reconnoiter - along with Balin, who had been in this place with him  before.  Also noticed that Bilbo wasn't asked, he just went along with them.  Was it  assumed that he would go with Thorin?

Bilbo is the only one with spirit as they go deeper into the gloom. He studies the Thorin's map.   He's the one who makes them continue to search for the door when the dwarves are ready to turn back.  And when they find the door - with no keyhole, the others give up when their tools break into pieces as they try to break it down.

So how did they finally break down the wall?  Was magic really involved?  Or was it Bilbo's perseverence, sitting on the doorstep thinking, watching the setting sun and the rays of the rising moon shining on the keyhole?

And what did the thrush who ate snails have to do with it?  Is a thrush a crow or a raven, Babi?  What does his presence mean here?

ps More than once, I find myself wondering why Bombur was included in this company.  He is really a handicap, isn't he?
 
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on November 30, 2012, 10:37:59 AM
Quote
What did Bilbo mean when he said "third time pays for all"?

I've a note in the annotated copy -

"Third time pays for all" is a medieval proverb, a notable use of which occurs in Sir Gawain and the Green knight."

The annotation says are three appearances of the proverb in The Lord of the Rings" and quotes a letter from Tolkein dated July 31, 1964 on the usage:

"It is an old alliterative saying using the word "time" ...this third occasion is the best time - the time for special effort and/or luck.  It is used when a third occurrence may surpass the others and finally prove a man's worth, or a thing's."

When reading Tolkien's words, "the time for special effort and/or luck" I thought again about Bilbo's success - was it due to his special effort - or luck?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 30, 2012, 11:05:43 AM
I found a good drawing of the Lonely Mountain that elaborates the map JoanP posted, showing the Back Door clearly, and the camps the party made.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Back_Door (http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Back_Door)

And this is the set of drawings we already have, but going directly to the Front Door picture to make it easy to compare.

http://www.theonering.com/galleries/professional-artists/g23/the-lonely-mountain-j-r-r-tolkien (http://www.theonering.com/galleries/professional-artists/g23/the-lonely-mountain-j-r-r-tolkien)
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 30, 2012, 11:05:59 AM

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

  November Book Club Online
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hobbit/hobbitcover.jpg)
  The Hobbit turns 75 this fall, an occasion likely to cause many thousands of people to reflect with fondness on their childhood memories of the adventures of Bilbo Baggins.

Though a much loved and widely respected children’s book, this work is too often overlooked by adults who relegate it to the nursery bookshelf.  "The Hobbit is a brilliantly constructed story unfolding themes that adult readers will still find compellingly relevant to the modern world: themes such as the nature of evil and the significance of human choice, or the corruptive power of greed and the ease with which good people can be drawn into destructive conflict." Corey Olsen is an Assistant Professor of English at Washington College in Maryland

 Bilbo Baggins begins as a cautious and conservative hobbit, well respected and considered a pillar of the hobbit community. When he reluctantly sets out on a quest to recover the stolen treasure of a band of dwarves, he encounters dangers of all descriptions. His adventures, which figure prominently in a prophecy of the dwbarves, are like stepping stones on the inner journey Biblo must take to find his courage. Bilbo faces trials which again and again force him to look deep inside himself for the strength and resourcefulness he needs to complete the task expected of him.

Discussion Schedule
Ch 1 - 3 Nov 12-16
Ch 4 - 6 Nov 17-21
Ch 7 - 8 Nov 22-26
Ch 9 - 12 Nov 27-Dec 1
Ch 13 - 15 Dec 2-5 Now Discussing
Ch 16 - 18 Dec 6-9
Ch 19 and overall Dec 10-13

Questions for Consideration

To notice for the whole book:

Tolkien incorporated many elements of myth, legend, and fairy tale.  What ones do you see?  Are they effective?

The story takes place in Middle Earth.  Is this our world?  How is it the same or different?

The Hobbit is a prelude to The Lord of the Rings.  If you are familiar with LOTR, notice which elements are present here, and what differences there are.

What different races of creatures do we meet?  What is each like?

Chapter 13.

1. The dwarves are despairing, but Bilbo feels "a strange lightening of the heart".  What do you think that means?  What is the psychology at work in this reaction?

 2. What is your opinion of Thorin throwing the responsibility of leadership in Bilbo's lap?

3. Why does Bilbo take the Arkenstone?  Why doesn't he tell anyone?

4. What is the effect of gold and jewels on the heart of a dwarf?


Chapter 14.

1. What new heroic leader now emerges?  What is your first impression of him?

2. Do you see another 'legendary' weapon making its appearance?

3. Why can Bard understand the thrush?
 
4. How appropriate is the attack on the town for a child's book? Does Tolkien manage to convey the drama without too much trauma?

5. What flaws does the town's 'Master' reveal? How does he manage to keep his position?


Chapter 15.

1. Dwarves, men and elves each want the treasure.  What reason does each give?  Are the claims just?

2. What hopeful outcome does the raven express from the confrontation of dwarves and men? What advice to Thorin does he see as critical to that outcome?

3. What is the situation between Thorin and his followers?



 
Discussion Leaders:    PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net ); Marcie (marciei@aol.com), Babi (pmg371@aol.com), Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com )

Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on November 30, 2012, 11:56:51 AM
Wow, what a lot of great ideas and comments.

Babi, I agree with  your assessment of the Master, Babi. He sure seems like a politician (not in any good sense). Thanks for the link to the lore about ravens and crows. It's interesting that "In some cases these black-feathered birds are considered an omen of bad tidings, but in others they may represent a message from the Divine."

JoanP,  the thrush must have some role to play but I guess we have to wait to find out. Bird symbolism is interesting.  As you say, Bilbo was the only one with the perserverance to unlock the door. Elrond had shown them some hidden symbols on Thorin's map of the Lonely Mountain. The symbols are only visible at the right phase of the moon. They say that the tiny, secret side door into the Lonely Mountain will only open on Durin's Day, the last day of autumn. It seems that Bilbo has spent the day thinking about it and finally understands the clues in Thorin's map. On Durin's Day, using the key from Thorin's grandfather, Bilbo is able to open the door. LOL re the heavy, slow Bombur. Is he part of the comic relief? and/or part of the suspense...will all the group be able to make it home alive, given their weakest/slowest members?

Joan, that's a good question about effort and/or luck. Some people do not believe in luck. Does it seem to play a big role in this story?

Thanks for looking up the proverb  "third time pays for all." Did Bilbo use it for the literal third time he saved the dwarves? What were the previous two events?

Great, Pat. Thanks for those two drawings of the Lonely Mountain. It helps to see those pictures.

Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 30, 2012, 01:27:24 PM
I’m bringing this up now because it may take time to get the book.  When we started this discussion, we mentioned the possibility of afterward reading Pat Murphy’s There and Back Again.  This is a light-hearted Space Opera which closely follows the plot of The Hobbit, only with spaceships and the whole galaxy to journey in.  It’s good sci-fi even if you haven’t read the Tolkien, but if you have, it’s really fun to see how clever she is.  If anyone’s interested, we could talk about it a bit—not a formal discussion, just a few days chat.

Chat or not, it’s fun to read.  It’s out of print, but some libraries have it (mine does) and Amazon has  a few cheap used copies

Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=pat+murphy+there+and+back+again&sprefix=pat+mu%2Cstripbooks%2C452/)

and alibris has lots

alibris (http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?wauth=pat+murphy&browse=2&qsort=&narrow=1&wtit=there+and+back+again&wauth=&fiction=&wquery=&binding=&wpub=/)

That strange character on the cover is Gandalf.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Lorac625 on November 30, 2012, 02:39:23 PM
I can't help but admit that one of my favorite,most frquently employed and useful quotes from The Hobbit is poor Bilbo's "Thag you very buch". (Sneeze!). Perhaps this is just because I have allergies and sinus problems,who knows?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 30, 2012, 02:57:08 PM
I'm with you there, Lorac, I have allergies too.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Lorac625 on November 30, 2012, 02:59:16 PM
I very much enjoy Tolkien's (albeit rather pointed) foreshadowing,such as "Luckily for him(Bombur) that (he was too heavy for the ropes) was not true,as you shall see."Ch.XI. It's almost gentle sarcasm- Here!  Pay attention,dunderhead!  Definitely irony,at least.  i wonder if he lived in Middle-Earth more than this one?

Tolkien had such an effect on so many,but one author I found simply because he assisted Christopher Tolkien with publishing The Silmarillion is  Guy Gavriel Kay.   Try him if you haven't.  Such lyrical prose!
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 30, 2012, 03:41:14 PM
Kay has been recommended to me before.  Which one would you suggest for a start?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on November 30, 2012, 05:25:31 PM
I read Kay's Ysabel. I had intended to read more of his books, but forgot about him. Thanks for the reminder.

Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 01, 2012, 12:48:39 AM
Lorac, I don't have allergies but I too enjoyed Bilbo's "Thag you very buch". (Sneeze!) It makes him so endearing. I think I will enjoy the film but I rather want Bilbo to remain a "creature" in my mind rather than have an image of a human being. I know he looks like a human in the drawings too but I think of him as sort of rabbit like.

I'm glad you brought up the foreshadowing. [Luckily for him(Bombur) that (he was too heavy for the ropes) was not true, as you shall see.] I like those instances too. I think there have been one or two before that one.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on December 01, 2012, 09:55:01 AM
 The thrush is a different species than the crows and ravens...and without the
more sinister mythology. Here, he seems to be another 'friendly messenger'.
Doesn't the primary role of birds in fantasy seem to be either predators or
messengers?
  I had the same reaction to Bombur as MARCIE, ie.'comic relief' character. He
seems to fit the role. And the same feeling re. Bilbo. I don't want him to look
like a human child. (Did no one consider casting a real midget in this role? We
have some excellent actors among the 'little people'.)

 Gandalf? Really, PAT? It looked to me like a red-haired woman!
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on December 01, 2012, 10:02:43 AM
 Good grief!  Are we supposed to be finishing with Ch. 12 today?  It's got to be the longest
chapter in the book and I've still got so many notes from this one chapter. Forgive me if
I take up too much time.
 
   At last they have found the 'back door' to the dragon's lair.  And would you listen to Thorin!  He praises 'Mr. Baggins' for his courage, resourcefulness and "good luck far exceeding the usual allowance".    Well,  I concede there has been extraordinary good luck.  But then Thorin goes on to say "Now is the time for him to perform the service for which he was included in our Company; now is the time for him to earn his reward."
  I was glad to see Bilbo's reaction was the same as mine.  'Impatient'  is what Tolkien called it.  I thought it outrageous.  As 'Mr. Baggins' says,  he had gotten them out of two messes already, which were hardly in the original bargain, so that he had already earned some reward.  But  he still intends to go on with his original purpose.  He is a far different person that the scatter-wit and timid hobbit who started out.

    Tolkien finds here another excellent opportunity to make an important point with his young readers. "There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don't expect too much."
  I think this understanding would come in most useful as the kids grow up and begin dealing with "men of the world"  big business types.

 Okay, I'll end with that.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 01, 2012, 10:59:16 AM
I think of Bilbo as looking pretty human, not like a child, but short and plump.  You can do that with a normal sized actor by camera tricks.

Yes, Babi, Gandalf is a red-haired woman with tattoos, and that isn't an eyepatch, it's an enhanced sensor.  But she still is a lot like Gandalf.  The dwarves are female too.  Bilbo is still male.

Chapter 12 is long and full of stuff, and it can spill into tomorrow if we aren't through talking about it.

Babi, I'm glad you quoted that bit about dwarves--decent enough people if you don't expect too much.  I like that a lot too.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 01, 2012, 08:09:48 PM
Quote
What did Bilbo mean when he said "third time pays for all"?

I've a note in the annotated copy -

"Third time pays for all" is a medieval proverb, a notable use of which occurs in Sir Gawain and the Green knight."

The annotation says are three appearances of the proverb in The Lord of the Rings" and quotes a letter from Tolkein dated July 31, 1964 on the usage:

"It is an old alliterative saying using the word "time" ...this third occasion is the best time - the time for special effort and/or luck.  It is used when a third occurrence may surpass the others and finally prove a man's worth, or a thing's."

When reading Tolkien's words, "the time for special effort and/or luck" I thought again about Bilbo's success - was it due to his special effort - or luck?
This is important.  Bilbo does go down the passage to the dragon's lair.  What happens when he does so?  He reaches a third turning point in his journey.  (the first two: 1:his reaction to being left alone in the goblin cave, dealing with Gollum, and finding pity and strength to escape without killing Gollum, and 2: managing to kill the spider all by himself, and then naming his sword, showing that at least unconsciously he accepts that he is part of the heroic tradition).

So: “It was at this point that Bilbo stopped.  Going on from there was the bravest thing he ever did.  The tremendous things that happened afterwards were as nothing compared to it.  He fought the real battle in the tunnel alone, before he ever saw the vast danger that lay in wait.”

Bilbo has jumped another step in bravery and heroism, and is definitely proving his worth.

Luck is an important theme too, better dealt with later.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on December 01, 2012, 10:13:15 PM
I have been struggling with the under belly of the story ever since the naming of the sword - Oh I can see how Bilbo, in order to be accepted embarked on activities admired by the Dwarfs and how he seemed to be introspective at the water's edge not participating while Thorin was claiming his ancient rights. It appears that Bilbo takes on searching out the Dragon and the next phase of waging war with the Dragon as his own 'Man' who is only struggling with his spirit, with his Tuck side versus his Baggins side.

However, where I am really personally confused is all this about the sword that seems to be agreeing with the Christian traditional concept of a 'Just War' - Bilbo and his knife/sword Sting reminds me of the Story of Roland where Bishops and priests fight along side soldiers and knights, each wielding their named swords - the Story of Roland highlights the tradition that the Christian God punishes the evil forces in the world. As a result, the sword is thought as an agent of God's will, deemed to punish evil. This tradition is alive and well in many of the romantic stories of knights slaying dragons or saving the life and the virtues of young women. Again, the knight and his sword an agent of Good over Evil.

I have a problem with this view of God who punishes evil, as if the Christian God is some Superman beyond all Supermen but still in the image of a man - how demeaning in my estimation - but since no one has ever seen God we can all have our imaginative concept. But more, who is to judge what is evil enough to warrant the use of arms - this Nation does it as if we are the superior judge of ethical behavior - we have so many quotes that to me represent a more enlightened approach to elevating children's future behavior and advancing a world view of issues having many sides and that the power of arms is not how the winner is chosen.

We have sayings like - 'One man's virtue is another man's sin' - 'One Man's Vices are Another Man's Virtues' - The realization that 'evil can infect people who seem upright', as it did Bilbo for awhile - which can lead to,  'one man's sin often becomes the occasion of another man's greater sin' - these well known quotes highlight for us the various ethical values of cultures around the world - which some would say, Bilbo is having a learning lesson while others would see his behavior as following the evil exemplified by the code of the dwarfs.

That is opening another can of worms... The dwarfs are described as calculating with ideas about the value of money; they are tricky and  treacherous. Sounds like how we define a group of people who live their ethical lives differently than ourselves.

I guess it is the idea of a spiritual quest that is built on the successful handling of a weapon - no different than, Billy the Kid - Judge Roy Bean - Kit Carson - who was just? - Who represented the evil force of a Dragon? Had this story been written as a myth rather than as a story for children told in the twentieth century I would not feel so conflicted or maybe, we have come very far in just the last 50 years because we sure did not think WWII was unjust. We only really started to question the concept of a 'Just War' and wielding the power of our so called Judeo/Christian values during the Viet Nam experience. Certainly after Gandhi.

This post may not be pushing us on through Bilbo's adventure but my take on reading for discussion any book is, why read much less discuss if it does not stir interior questions. We can read fluff that entertains without devoting a month to the pearls from an author's pen.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 01, 2012, 10:19:11 PM
As Pat says, we can see if we finish up Chapter 12 today or continue with this long chapter tomorrow. Thanks, Pat, for bringing up the importance again of Bilbo's heroic acts. He's someone who has stayed near home all his life and has been content with his existence... eating, sleeping, entertaining. However, he does have "Took" ancestry and he has skills that he has practiced such as throwing stones/darts, etc. accurately. Even though he is afraid, he rises to the challenges of this adventure.

LOL, Babi, Tolkien's descriptions often are not overly flattering. I laughed at his dwarf caveat ..."if you don't expect too much."

Barbara, you raise some thought-provoking points. You say "Had this story been written as a myth rather than as a story for children told in the twentieth century..." I do see The Hobbit as a myth. Everything is not to be taken literally. The "hobbit" itself is an imaginary creature. There's a short, interesting article on history of The Hobbit book at http://www.tolkien-online.com/hobbit.html
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on December 01, 2012, 10:23:11 PM
Hmm Marcie maybe I am expecting too much from Tolkien - although, he is considered such an icon of twentieth century storytelling that underscores Christian religious views.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 01, 2012, 10:34:21 PM
I added the link to the article in my post, Barbara. It might respond to your question about how seriously to take the book when it says:

"Those of Tolkien’s close friends who were aware of the manuscript, including C.S. Lewis, encouraged Tolkien to submit it to a publisher, but Tolkien refused.

Why? Conjecture based on later comments of Tolkien’s was that he feared it would not be taken seriously. Tolkien understood his standing as a scholar, and perhaps believed that The Hobbit would not be seen as a useful application of his scholarly talents.

Serious scholars, after all, did not write “children’s” tales.

The Hobbit, of course, is both a “children’s tale” and something more. Tolkien drew deeply on his knowledge of ancient mythology, primarily northern (Norse) mythology, to flesh out the characters and plot. "

Perhaps the idea that The Hobbit is a myth makes it even more (or at least equally) "serious" and important a work as a fact-based story.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on December 01, 2012, 11:27:13 PM
Marcie thanks for the link - after your post and reading the link I think I am not so much at odds with Tolkien but more at odds understanding and accepting the concept of a 'Just War.' That is a question of theology not of Tolkien and his story the Hobbit... because Tolkien's story is as engrossing a read as The Song of Roland was when I read it many years ago.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 01, 2012, 11:35:48 PM
Thanks, Barbara. It's wonderful to read and discuss books that bring to mind so many different ideas and issues.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on December 02, 2012, 09:43:52 AM
 Never heard those sayings, BARB. And I really wonder if Tolkien at all intended his little
tale do be seen as a Christian allegory.  While it is true we can find many small lessons
for young people here, I cannot at all see it as a "spiritual quest" built on a weapon.
I appreciate MARCIE's point that the "Hobbit" is tale that draws primarily on ancient
and northern mythology.

 Now this I cannot relate to at all.   Bilbo gets away from his first sighting of the dragon with a single two-handled cup.  The dragon goes into a rage that is described as "only seen when rich folk that have more than they can enjoy suddenly lose something that they have long had but never before used of wanted."   I cannot imagine flying into a rage over that.   Annoyance, yes! Petulance, perhaps.  But rage?   I know there are personalities whose sense of security lies in having everyone terrified of them,  and they would be in a rage if someone showed the disrespect of daring to rob them. Is that what this is?
 
  Oh, good!  Thorin has redeemed himself in my eyes.  Even though they are in imminent danger,  he refuses to abandon the two dwarves left to guard the supplies.  He will not permit anyone to run for  cover until the two dwarves, and what supplies they can grab,  are towed up to safety.  He is a dwarf of courage and integrity, at least.  Can he surmount the dwarfs great
weakness?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 02, 2012, 10:01:59 AM
I agree, Babi; this book is primarily myth and not religion.  Tolkien's deeply religious outlook only appears as a kind of subtext--the underlying attitude and moral outlook.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 02, 2012, 12:26:22 PM
 I think that's what enraged the dragon, Babi - knowing that someone dared to set foot his sanctuary - not so much as the little cup.  Though he wants that cup...
And I thought as you did that Thorin redeemed himself - showed his courage and wondered if he would now take over more of a  leadership position.  He is at a loss though as to what to do next.  Would he have turned back had Bilbo not come up with the idea of going in to see what the dragon is doing?

Loved their conversation - in which the dragon revealed his "overwhelming" personality.  He became more human, didn't he?  Both Bilbo and Smaug revealed insecurities in this conversation.  Smaug had a weakness for flattery, revealing his exposed underside - the left side of his chest as he shows off his diamond doublet to Bilbo.  Bilbo's insecurity take root...he begins to question his leader and fellow dwarves.  How on earth would they transport his share back to his hobbit hole if they are successful?  Do they have any intention of sharing with him?  Or worse, have they given any thought at all about planning to return with the haul? 

As they talk about the treasure within, I'm wondering what Bilbo would do with spears and shields, huge goblets, heavy emerald necklaces.  Was there anything mentioned that Bilbo might want to take with him?  It all seems  so "inappropriate" for Bag's End  (I forget what his home is called.)  My bet is that he won't take anything.  I wonder - how big is the Arkenstone?  What IS the Arkenstone?  Just caught up and ready to start Chapter XIII to find out more.

ps Marcie - thank you so much for those links!  I love reading about Tolkien's intentions with this magnificent tale!
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 02, 2012, 01:48:38 PM
Loved their conversation - in which the dragon revealed his "overwhelming" personality.  He became more human, didn't he?  Both Bilbo and Smaug revealed insecurities in this conversation.  Smaug had a weakness for flattery, revealing his exposed underside - the left side of his chest as he shows off his diamond doublet to Bilbo.  Bilbo's insecurity take root...he begins to question his leader and fellow dwarves.  How on earth would they transport his share back to his hobbit hole if they are successful?  Do they have any intention of sharing with him?  Or worse, have they given any thought at all about planning to return with the haul?  

As they talk about the treasure within, I'm wondering what Bilbo would do with spears and shields, huge goblets, heavy emerald necklaces.  Was there anything mentioned that Bilbo might want to take with him?  It all seems  so "inappropriate" for Bag's End  (I forget what his home is called.)  My bet is that he won't take anything.  I wonder - how big is the Arkenstone?  What IS the Arkenstone?  Just caught up and ready to start Chapter XIII to find out more.

Those are great points, Joan. Yes, Bilbo was trying to flatter Smaug to distract him and was able to find his weakness. Smaug seems like he knows how to undermine Bilbo too. He's skillful at making Bilbo question the dwarves.

I think (but can't remember clearly) that the Arkenstone was mentioned at the beginning of their quest as the pinacle of the dwarves treasure for which they were going to kill the dragon.

I found this info about it:
"The Arkenstone also known as the "Heart of the Mountain" of Thrain was a wondrous gem sought by Thorin Oakenshield in J. R. R. Tolkien's The Hobbit. It was discovered beneath the Lonely Mountain (Erebor) by Thorin's ancestor Thrain and shaped by the Dwarves. The Arkenstone became the family heirloom of Durin's folk, but was lost when the dragon Smaug captured the mountain from the Dwarves. "

There are some images of it at http://www.google.com/search?q=Arkenstone&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Eha&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=OKS7UN32E8bjiwLG64DQCA&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1375&bih=878&sei=O6S7ULWkAeqligLr4YFA
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 02, 2012, 02:38:16 PM
My book says that the name Arkenstone comes from the Anglo-Saxon eorclanstan, "precious stone", which is used in Beowulf.  There are other bits from Beowulf in the book.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 02, 2012, 02:40:51 PM
We're scheduled to move on to the next section today, and new questions are up, but, as always, we can talk about the old section as much as we want.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JudeS on December 03, 2012, 01:49:42 AM
In today's local newspaper (San Jose mercury News)  there was a long article called "Bay Area Hobbitats".
The author came up with many ideas of places to visit around the Bay that could remind one of places in The Hobbit.
However her main thrust is culinary and as she says:
Hobbits are small but very fond of feasting. In fact a normal day in the Shire might include breakfast, second breakfast,
elevensies, lunch, tea, dinner and supper.
She mentions many restaurants that are gearing up to serve special menus for the opening of the movie. Those are local.
However at Denny's, which is a national chain (I think)  they are suggesting "Build your own Hobbit Slam.
This includes "Pumpkin,peach pancakes" and "Shire sausages".
 
As we get closer to tho opening day for the movie there will probably be similar articles and promotions in other parts of the U.S. There's something about the story that invites these ideas.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 03, 2012, 09:00:26 AM
Do you plan on seeing The Hobbit when it comes out, Jude?  I'm sure we'll be hearing more hype and seeing coming attractions for the film as we near the Dec. 14 airing date.  We'll probably wait for Netflix.  I wonder if real Tolkien fans will show up at the theatres in costume.  That would be worth seeing!

Well sure enough, the Arkenstone shows up in the next chapter.  Bilbo finds it...and takes it!  Doesn't tell the other dwarves and did you notice poor Thorin looking for that particular stone and nothing else?  Why do you think Bilbo took it?  For himself, for his share - or did he think that it would help them fight the dragon - as the ring had proven itself to be useful?  

What good is seeing all this treasure if they are helpless against Smaug when he returns?  Does Bilbo have a plan?  Does he still believe "where there is life, there is hope?"  Is he still feeling light-hearted, upbeat, positive? Or does he despair as the dwarves seem to be doing?  Actually, the dwarves seem distracted by the treasure, cramming their pockets with gems... even Bilbo is decked out in a coat of mail, a belt of pearls.  He feels magnificent, but admits he must look absurd.  This get-up won't do any good when Smaug returns.  What's the plan?  Surely Smaug will smell the dwarves as soon as he returns...

Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on December 03, 2012, 09:48:10 AM
Beautiful gems, MARCIE. From the description in 'The Hobbit', I gather that it was faceted
so the smooth stones wouldn't fit. I have an image in my mind's eye, and I imagine each of
us does.
  That could be great fun, JUDE, ..going out to have a 'Hobbit' meal. Hopefully, ideas from
Bilbo's pantries rather than the journey fare.

 The beautiful Arkenstone.  Bilbo cannot resist it. He places it in his pocket,  justifying himself by deciding this is his choice for his share.  But like the ring, he decides not to tell the dwarves about it just now.  The Arkenstone, like the ring, seem to be key treasures in this story.
But how he can keep quiet about it when he sees how much it means to Thorin...that disturbs
me. 

  And Thorin, he keeps changing from the courageous king to the timid 'you do it' guy.  Bilbo is ready to explore the treasure cavern, but Thorin, the supposed leader of this expedition,  says that Bilbo is still the official investigator, and if he wanted to risk a light that was his affair, and they would wait in the tunnel 'for his report'.   I would think these incidents would lessen him in the eyes of his followers, but perhaps this is typical dwarf behavior.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 03, 2012, 10:32:52 AM
JoanP, as Babi says, Bilbo cannot resist the Arkenstone. It seems to have a similar power to the ring....calling out to be owned (or own the owner?) The book says:

Suddenly Bilbo's arm went towards it drawn by its enchantment. His small hand would  not close about it, for it was a large and heavy gem; but he lifted it, shut his eyes and put it in his deepest pocket.

"Now I am a burglar indeed!" thought he. "But I suppose I must tell the dwarves about it-some time. The did say I could pick and choose my own share; and I think I would choose this, if they took all the rest!" All the same he had an uncomfortable feeling that the picking and choosing had not really been meant to include this marvellous gem, and that trouble would yet come of it.


It's true that Thorin always searched from side to side for the Arkenstone but he didn't mention it to anyone.

I'm sure we have not heard the last of it.

Jude, that's interesting that restaurants are picking up on Hobbit food. Never miss a marketing opportunity!
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 03, 2012, 10:50:41 AM
I hope the restaurants have plenty of mushrooms; that's a hobbit favorite.

If I don't see it before, I'll probably go see the movie with my SIL at Christmas time.  I'm going to pass up the golden opportunity to see it at midnight the 13th/14th with my sci-fi book group, even though at least one of them will be in costume.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 03, 2012, 11:06:56 AM
Dragon hoards acquire an evil power of attraction, but the Arkenstone seems to have already had the power of attraction.  Thorin has been hoping all along to find it.  Now the dwarves are arming themselves with rich armor, and Bilbo gets a little coat of mail made of mithril, the silver-steel of the elves.  We'll see this coat again a generation later, in LOTR, when Frodo takes it on his quest; it proves to be very useful indeed.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 03, 2012, 11:17:12 AM
Is it clear yet why Thorin wants it?  Is he attracted to it the same way that Bilbo is?  Or does he have another use for it?   I'm guessing that Thorin knows the power of this stone, whereas Bilbo is just feeling its attraction - and sensing that it is worth taking.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JudeS on December 03, 2012, 07:21:01 PM
Although I am reading along with you I am only minimumly participating in the discussion.
I admit that I was curious about this book.
I know that most of you really like this story. So I will ask you:
1)What type of a quest is this? Gold , precious stones , jewels? Or is there something else that I am not seeing?
Don't say Bilbo is gaining courage. That is understood in every quest story.
Overcoming the Evil Dragon?
Is that the quest?
2) What does the Dragon symbolize? Rich people who just want more riches for the sake of having them?
Why the dragon can't even brag about his wealth. He has no friends, no compatriots, no sharers in his ill gotten gains.He can't write about it or sing about it or announce it from the rooftops.
3)Are we to understand that the gold will have more meaning if and when it is returned to its true owners? Share the wealth perchance?
Are we to surmise from the story that stealing is bad especially when you don't use the wealth for anyone except yourself?

What are we to make of this long story?  Is it symbolic or do people read symbols into it? Perhaps it really is "just a children's story".No more ,no less.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 03, 2012, 08:38:58 PM
Perhaps it is something we haven't seen in the story yet, Jude.  Up until now the dwarves have been pursuing what belonged to their fathers, and therefore to them.  I still don't know what's motivating Bilbo.  Could be something as simple as self-respect . Could be a mid-life crisis kind of thing - an unwillingness to admit that his days for adventure are over.

I'm thinking that when the day comes that Smaug is dead, the real story will begin. How the dwarves, the Lake people, the elves will regard the treasure in the mountain.  New wealth  does strange things to people.

Weren't you really shocked to see Smaug go out so early in the story. I'd been expecting a fight and dragon-slaying at the end. In case some of you have not moved on to the next chapter, I won't reveal how,  or who slayed him - except to point out that it was Bilbo's discovery of Smaug's weak spot that made it possible to bring him down.  Without that knowledge, that dragon would still be ravaging the Lake people and terrorizing the dwarves.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 03, 2012, 09:26:22 PM
Good questions, Judy.  What is the quest?  For the dwarves, it's straightforward; they want to recover the treasure that was stolen from them, and re-establish their old kingdom under the mountain.  For Bilbo, at first it's not a quest at all.  He's merely roped into it by Gandalf and the dwarves, has no objective of his own.  Does it become more?  In Chapter 1 Tolkien says "--well, you will see whether he gained anything in the end."

What does anyone think, or is it too soon to say?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 04, 2012, 08:56:14 AM
So while the dwarves are reveling in their treasure, looking for a safe place to hole up, and wondering where the dragon is, where is Smaug?  He's off getting his revenge on the town, and coming to a bad end.  Here's Tolkien's rough sketch of his last moments:

Death of Smaug (http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/File:J.R.R._Tolkien_-_Death_of_Smaug.jpg)
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 04, 2012, 09:05:47 AM
Maybe a bit too soon to guess at Bilbo's quest just yet, Pat.  I don't think Bilbo really knows what has drawn him to this adventure- except for Gandalf's prodding.  Do you think it has something to do with Gandalf's knowledge of Bilbo's ancestors?  It seems that most of the characters are ftaking up their grandparents' issues, why not Bilbo?  Maybe his grandmother Took?

What fun to bring this story to the screen!  I'm looking forward to the new one, just to sww how it has been translated to the screen.  Tolkien's vivid word descriptions serve as staging direction for the settings, don't they? ...and his own sketches and illustrations too!

I found that same sketch, Pat...by Tolkien himself.  Was typing this out while you were posting~  My annotated edition contains these remarks by the author when he learns that his sketch is being considered for the cover of a paperback edition in 1966:

"I am not very happy about the use of this scrawl as a cover."  Then he goes on to criticize his own sketch in notes in the left margin:
"The moon should be a crescent, it was only a few nights after the New Moon on Durin's Day."

In the bottom left corner he writes:
"Dragon should have a white naked spot where the arrow enters."

At the bottom he writes:
"Bard the Bowman should be standing after release of arrow at extreme left point of the piles."

He sounds like a movie director, doesn't he?

(http://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/8/8e/J.R.R._Tolkien_-_Death_of_Smaug.jpg)
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on December 04, 2012, 09:26:27 AM
  I came across this bit of info. on the upcoming film. I've trimmed it down a bit.
 The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey will be shown on a special kind of film with a
rate of 48 frames per second. To put it simply, viewers long accustomed to seeing 24 frames every second will see twice that many when they watch The Hobbit.  I spoke to Peter Jackson at Comic-Con and he mentioned that it takes the eye a few minutes to adjust to the
frame rate. Having seen the entire film in 48 FPS, I know what he meant -- and my
feelings about the format are very mixed.
  Why would they choose to do that?  ???

 What does the dragon symbolize, JUDE? Just what you suggest, I imagine, only perhaps
reversed. If you are an ill-tempered creature that considers all other living things
to be food, having no friends or companions, I suppose the treasure is all you have.
Which would pretty well describe the archetypical miser.  As for the dwarves, I feel
they are seeking to reclaim not only the wealth, but their ancestral heritage as well.

 Well, we got the dragon attack and slaying, JOAN. Just not at the end. The slaying
of the dragon serves well to introduce the late-arriving new hero, BARD, of the line
of Dale.

 Dear Bilbo.  He is dressed in a beautiful suit of mithri armor,  a jeweled belt and a helmet studded with jewels. His reaction?  "I feel magnificent, but I expect I look rather absurd."    He is so down-to-earth...no pun intended.  I immediately thought of Robt. Frost: "Oh would some power the giftie gie us, to see ourselves as others see us.  It would from many a blunder free us, and foolish notion."

Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 04, 2012, 11:29:38 AM
You are asking some central questions, Jude. As Pat indicates "In Chapter 1 Tolkien says '--well, you will see whether he gained anything in the end.' " Perhaps we have to wait to see more events to discover a fuller meaning to the dragon, treasure and all involved.

JoanP, I had your same reaction. Smaug was killed sort of "behind the scenes" from the dwarves. I was surprised that they didn't have to participate in the fight...except to "flush him out" so to speak. It was Smaug's own need for "revenge" that was his undoing. And the thrush passed on the needed information about the weak spot in his underbelly.

Thanks for the picture, Pat, and the notes, Joan. Tolkien does sound like a film director.

Babi, I appreciate your analysis and I am on the same page with you regarding your comments.

Interesting about the technical aspects of the film including frame rate. All of the decisions that need to be made by the director! I found this info about the 48 frames per second in wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_rate

    * 48p is a progressive format and is currently being trialed in the film industry. At twice the traditional rate of 24p, this frame rate attempts to reduce motion blur and flicker found in films. Director James Cameron stated his intention to film the two sequels to his film Avatar at a higher frame rate than 24 frames per second, in order to add a heightened sense of reality. The first film to be filmed at 48 FPS was The Hobbit, a decision made by its director Peter Jackson. At a preview screening at CinemaCon, the audience's reaction was mixed after being shown some of the film's footage at 48p, with some arguing that the feel of the footage was too lifelike (thus breaking the suspension of disbelief).
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JudeS on December 05, 2012, 12:20:50 AM
Babi
It was Robert Burns who said:

"Oh would some power the giftie gie to us,
    to see ourselves as others see us.

Robert Frost said:

The woods are lovely, dark and deep
But I have promises to keep
And miles to go before I sleep.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on December 05, 2012, 02:29:56 AM

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

 November Book Club Online
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hobbit/hobbitcover.jpg)
 The Hobbit turns 75 this fall, an occasion likely to cause many thousands of people to reflect with fondness on their childhood memories of the adventures of Bilbo Baggins.

Though a much loved and widely respected children’s book, this work is too often overlooked by adults who relegate it to the nursery bookshelf.  "The Hobbit is a brilliantly constructed story unfolding themes that adult readers will still find compellingly relevant to the modern world: themes such as the nature of evil and the significance of human choice, or the corruptive power of greed and the ease with which good people can be drawn into destructive conflict." Corey Olsen is an Assistant Professor of English at Washington College in Maryland

 Bilbo Baggins begins as a cautious and conservative hobbit, well respected and considered a pillar of the hobbit community. When he reluctantly sets out on a quest to recover the stolen treasure of a band of dwarves, he encounters dangers of all descriptions. His adventures, which figure prominently in a prophecy of the dwbarves, are like stepping stones on the inner journey Biblo must take to find his courage. Bilbo faces trials which again and again force him to look deep inside himself for the strength and resourcefulness he needs to complete the task expected of him.

Discussion Schedule
Ch 1 - 3 Nov 12-16
Ch 4 - 6 Nov 17-21
Ch 7 - 8 Nov 22-26
Ch 9 - 12 Nov 27-Dec 1
Ch 13 - 15 Dec 2-5
Ch 16 - 18 Dec 6-9 Now Discussing
Ch 19 and overall Dec 10-13

Questions for Consideration

To notice for the whole book:

Tolkien incorporated many elements of myth, legend, and fairy tale.  What ones do you see?  Are they effective?

The story takes place in Middle Earth.  Is this our world?  How is it the same or different?

The Hobbit is a prelude to The Lord of the Rings.  If you are familiar with LOTR, notice which elements are present here, and what differences there are.

What different races of creatures do we meet?  What is each like?

Chapter 16.

1. What plan does Bilbo carry out?

2. What are Bilbo's motives?

3. How does Gandalf react to Bilbo?

4. Is it true that defeat may glorious? If so, what makes it glorious?

Chapter 17.

1. What is Thorin's reaction to the "new tidings" brought by Bard and the Elvenking? What does he promise? Do you think he intends to keep his agreement? Do all of the dwarves agree with Thorin?

2. What happens to Bilbo?

3. After Dain and his army of dwarves arrives and the battle is about to be enjoined, what warning does Gandalf have for everyone that causes them to band together?

4. How are many of them saved? If there is a war of good against evil, who is on which side? How is the role of nature portrayed during these chapters?

5. Where is Bilbo during the fighting?

Chapter 18.

1. After the battles, what is Thorin's appraisal of Bilbo?

2. Who accompanies Bilbo on the roads  home?

3. What treasures are given to Bilbo and what does he do with some of them?  What parting gift did Bilbo give the Elvenking en route home? Does it seem reasonable to you?  Why or why not?

 
Discussion Leaders:    PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net ); Marcie (marciei@aol.com), Babi (pmg371@aol.com), Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com )



ohhh they are wings! thanks so much JoanP for posting the art work - there was a small copy in the book I am reading and I thought it was a pen point and gave up trying to figure it all out...

Jude I've been reviewing trying to nail further your question and up to where we are reading it appears to me Bilbo's adventure is simply like many of us, an adventure that is just part of living without any motive to accomplish something in particular - I think we all go through a phase in our life where something is thrown at us and we struggle with all sorts of demons to come out of a personal spiral. Part of what we do is to look at our heritage and use the examples of others in the family who we know had faced some serious life experiences - I think Bilbo looks to define himself and realized he has some Tuck heritage which helps him go forward.

I see that Thorin only had his agenda after he started the adventure and they met Elrond and so maybe something will come up for Bilbo that makes this adventure more focused as a personal quest for him -

As to the Dragon, I see him because of the early and terrible war between Dragons and Goblins, as so many soldiers when they are spiritually wounded they make up for their inner emptiness by accumulating - some accumulate women or get numb on drink or drugs or they accumulate treasure - the plunder is probably like Beorn had his dead enemy on poles in front of his house - we read how soldiers still take from their enemy as they walk through a battle area - plus, any ancient army that I ever read about were only paid in the plunder they could take with them after winning a battle. Yes, I see Smaug with human qualities.

War is usually described in heroic terms but from what I understand soldiers easily loose all normal boundaries and so, what belongs to anyone is from a culture and value system that they have had to abandon in order to stay alive followed by the struggle to not only act but believe the moral values before their personal war are still who they are.

I can see how a soldier must struggle when booty is part of the experience associated with, when what was normal did not exist. We see that, maybe not with as much treasure as booty but, retired soldiers die in old age and attic trunks opened hold helmets, flags, guns, shells, photos, and other personal affects of their enemy.

We even had that fun movie years ago Kelly's Heroes where Donald Sutherland was going behind enemy lines with his tank crew to rob the bank so they could make off with the money and not be caught by the US military. I guess that is why it was so funny - we usually associate that behavior with a hoarding monster dragon...  ;)
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 05, 2012, 01:26:58 PM
So, while the dwarves cower in their claustrophobic tunnel, finally coming out to revel in the treasure and find a new hiding hole, great things are happening in the valley.  Smaug descends on the town and tries to set everything on fire.  Did you notice that he doesn't like to fly close to the lake because he knows the water can quench him?  Grim-faced Bard the Bowman kills the dragon, with the help of the thrush's information.

Now comes the difficult recuperation.  Notice how Bard and the Master each use their political skills.  What is each one trying to do, and how successful is each?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on December 05, 2012, 03:19:07 PM
Oh, drat! Did I do that?  Of course it's Robert Burns. Frost is such a favorite of
mine, though, that the name 'Robert' seems to merge into 'Frost' all too often.

 Good question, PAT. Bard doesn't really want to be mayor of that town, does he?
So he supports the Master by taking care of the wounded and sick and clearing wreckage.
But his hope is to re-establish his ancestral line at Dale. The Master, of course, though still
suspicious of Bard, definitely wants to keep his very profitable position. The Master sat where he was and "said little, unless it was to call loudly for men to bring him fire and food." And if the town cannot be salvaged, he will slip away with as much wealth as possible.

   The ravens have been most helpful to the dwarves, and shown themselves reliable.   The oldest of the ravens tells Thorin not to trust the master, but to listen to Bard.  Then, "We would see peace once more among dwarves and men and elves after the long desolation."  Surely a wonderful possibility now.  But immediatly Thorin's greatest weaknesses, his love of gold and his stubbornness, flare up.  He calls those approaching 'thieves' and 'the violent'.   It's heartbreaking to think how one leader's faults can bring disaster for so many.    Bilbo longed to leave them then, and even some of the dwarves "were moved in their hearts", too,  and they muttered that  they "wished things  had fallen out otherwise and that they might welcome such folk as friends".
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on December 05, 2012, 04:01:51 PM
I've just started the second of the Halo Forerunner series. What you say? What? Greg Bear, the author, paid homage to Tolkien by mentioning that a character in the series, usually called a Florian, is alternatively known as a Hobbit.

This may sound a little odd, but I quite liked the character Smaug. I think it must be because in the original cartoon movie the character voice was Richard Boone.

There is a lesson in there about how greed, unfettered (in this case once Smaug was out of the way), destroys long standing friendships and alliances. Oh what rationalizations they all come up with. Those very few who are not motivated by greed, like Bard, are suspect.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 05, 2012, 05:53:42 PM
Thorin wants to re-establish his kingdom under the mountain.  There's a flaw in his plan--even with the military help of his relatives from Iron Mountain, he won't be able to succeed without the good will of the valley-dwellers.  The dwarves never grew their own food, relying on trade with the men of Dale.  They risk eventually starving, since the men won't now be willing to trade with them.

I really like the onomatopoeic names of the ravens: Carc and Roäc.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 05, 2012, 08:18:48 PM
Babi, yes, I noted that not all of the dwarves wanted to follow Thorin but they didn't want to defy him. I guess they knew they would not be able to change his mind.

Frybabe, I too thought that Smaug was interesting. I thought he'd play a bigger role. He reminded me a bit of Gollum.

Pat, the treasure seems to have overpowered Thorin. He certainly wasn't thinking straight.

Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 05, 2012, 10:12:04 PM
Those birds are interesting, aren't they? - the way they speak languages understood by certain groups, not others...  I was surprised that Bilbo was able to understand old Roac...it seems he speaks "ordinary language" - not bird speech.  Though he was able to understand the thrush.  I guess you'd say Roac was multi-lingual... I think we'll be hearing more bird-speak in the difficult days ahead. Intermediaries  seem to be needed.

PatH, will you explain Roac's name as "onomatopoeic" - I don't quite hear it...
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 06, 2012, 06:22:29 AM

Frybabe, I agree with what you are saying about the lesson here about unfettered greed destroying friendships and alliances.  Up to this point I think we were reading an adventure story - the good dwarves on a mission to take back their family home and treasure from the evil killer- dragon.  But the story is taking a turn now,  don't you think?

Poor Bilbo, he thought the adventure was over once the dragon was slain, the treasure restored. If he could, he'd leave now - even forget his share. (Don't forget he's already got the Arkenstone in his pocket.)

Can you see an alliance - Bilbo, Bambur, Kili, Fili - pacifists against Thorin, as the threat of war escalates?  I'll bet on Bilbo to figure out a  peaceful way out of this sticky situation.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on December 06, 2012, 07:19:31 AM
PatH, you gave me a new word to look up.

I wanted to check on when Tolkien wrote The Hobbit and what his views on war were. Four interesting things emerged: he wrote the book sometime earlier than its publication, having originally written it for his children; he was not a pacifistic, was opposed to Nazism and Stalinism, but was horrified by and critical of the excesses of war (ex: Hiroshima, anti-German propaganda); his treatment of race and racism evolved over time to a more anti-racism stance in his later writings; he loved a simple country life. The latter, I think, shows up in his descriptions of Bilbo's home and community. As far as racism in his writings, I hadn't noticed. Apparently some scholars believe that there was intentional racism, or unconscious ethnocentric bias, or latent racism in his earlier writings. Sometimes I think scholars over think things.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on December 06, 2012, 09:10:04 AM
  What a good ear you have, PatH. You're so right; Carc and Roac, if you say the
names out loud, are 'crow' sounds. I would never have noticed that!

 
Quote
Sometimes I think scholars over think things.
I think you're right,
FRYBABE.

    It's confusing.  The Elvenking, hurrying to the treasure mountain, turns aside at the plea from Bard to come to the aid of the destroyed town and people of Esgaroth.   We read that "he was the lord of a good and kindly people".    So, why did he imprison the dwarves when they came to him for help?  It's not like they were ancient enemies.  It was the dwarves who made so many of the things the elves treasured, like the mithril armor. The two races had been friendly.   What did I miss?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 06, 2012, 09:24:11 AM
Babi, I didn't think the dwarves came to the Elvenking for help - I remember they were caught trespassing on his land and refused to tell him why.  Either it was as simple as that...or again, maybe it was GREED - maybe he suspected that they were on the way to Lonely Mountain to somehow reclaim their treasure - and wanted a share.  It seems there is no trust at this time.

 :D Maybe Roac's name sounds like the croaking of a very old raven?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 06, 2012, 10:30:20 AM
JoanP, I think you're right that the story has taken a turn from the "adventure" of killing the  dragon and reclaiming the dwarves kingdom and treasure. Now it seems it is about to be the dwarves against the men and wood elves.... over treasure.  Babi, it did seem that the dwarves and elves had worked together in the past.

I'm glad that you looked up that information about Tolkien's views on war, Frybabe. In Bilbo, he does seem to want to choose another way for the groups that risks his own life to prevent war. And he does seem to cherish the country life of "nature."
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 06, 2012, 01:55:29 PM
Tolkien seems to hate modern, mechanized warfare.  It's a criticism of the goblins that they invented "ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once", and this attitude appears more in LOTR.

He had good reason; he fought in WWI, starting with the Battle of the Somme, that monstrously mismanaged bloodbath, with 50,000 casualties on the first day alone.  He managed to get his platoon to whatever their objective was, but that didn't do any good; everyone had to fall back because so few had made it.  He escaped being wounded, but some months later fell very ill with trench fever, and had to be hospitalized for months.

It's a different matter when it comes to the older style legendary fighting with swords, etc.  He seems to say you shouldn't fight needlessly, but should be ready to fight, and he definitely admires the glory and heroism involved.  You don't see that so much here, but there's a lot of it in LOTR.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 06, 2012, 08:29:57 PM
Funny how Tolkien has you wavering back and forth. I thought Thorin made a reasonable request when he asked the Lakemen and the elves to lay down their weapons so they can parley.I've a note that a parley, in military situations, is usually accompanied by a temporary truce, for the purpose of discussing terms.

It turns out that he didn't want a truce at all - didn't want to share what he thought was his - all his.  I thought Bard made a better case for a share of the wealth to rebuild what Smaug has destroyed. Also, perhaps he made a bigger case regarding the portion of the hord Smaug had been stealing from them over the years.

Neither side is going to back down on this. How can there be a parley? Clearly war is unavoidable.  Even Bilbo's clever maneuver of giving the Arkenstone to Bard as a bargaining chip fell on deaf ears.  Thorin never intended to give up Bilbo's share even if Bard returned his precious heirloom - something he wanted more than anything in the world.  He knows fellow dwarf, Dain, is on the way to fight back the lake men and the elves. Why? Are they hoping for a share too?

But what's this?  The goblins are coming!  The goblins are coming!  Why?  They are armed to the teeth! Will there be an end to those in pursuit of the treasure?

The battle of five armies is on!
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 06, 2012, 09:01:29 PM
Good points, Pat, about the horrors of war, especially the goblins' "ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once" and the sometimes necessary acceptance of one-on-one combat. In The Hobbit, Bilbo is trying to have everyone avoid any type of combat. He just wants peace... and to go home. He thinks that the Arkenstone will be a good parlay chip for Bard and the Elvenking. He knows how much Thorin wants that stone. He's risking a lot to bring it to the supposed "enemy" and risking alot returning to the dwarves. He could have stayed with Bard and the elves but he feels loyalty to the dwarves.

JoanP, what a lot of twists in the plot!
--The dwarves are ready to try to kill the dragon.
--Unknown to them, Bard has already killed Smaug, after the dragon has decimated a lot of the people and town.
--Thorin and the dwarves stake out a claim to the Mountain and treasure.
--The Men and wood-elves come to wait the dwarves out and get at least some of the treasure.
--Bilbo tries to negotiate a peace.
--Dain is on his way with an army of dwarves to fight for the treasure.
--It looks like there will be a big battle between the dwarves and the Men/elves.
--Now Gandolf tells them that the Goblins and wargs are coming!!!! They've learned that the dragon is dead. Now is their chance to kill off all the other creatures in their way.
--It's now the "good guys" banded together against the "evil guys."
--Yikes!
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 06, 2012, 09:36:58 PM
I can't imagine what part Bilbo will play  in all this, now that Gandalf is on the scene. Poor Bilbo - he's fulfilled his assigned task, handed over his share, including the prized Arkenstone in his attempt at arbitration. Hasn't he earned time off?  He can taste the bacon and eggs ...
What more can one little hobbit do as the five armies gather...
I just remembered - he still has that ring in his pocket...
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on December 07, 2012, 08:12:32 AM
General early morning thoughts: Shifting alliances; good vs evil, within oneself and from without; self discovery; altruism vs selfishness; warmongering vs peaceful solutions to problems. Themes within themes.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 07, 2012, 08:44:14 AM
So very thankful that you are on the lookout for those general themes and implications, Fry! I confess to being so caught up in three December family birthday celebrations, that my late-night reading time is spent turning the pages, totally involved in following Tolkien's plot.  :D
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on December 07, 2012, 09:24:17 AM
 As I remember it, JOANP,  the elves stumbled on the Elvenking's gathering in the
woods, when they were lost and hungry. The elves disappeared before the dwarves
could ask for help. They managed to find them twice more, but with the same result.
The dwarves found their home site, but one of the dwarves let his aggravation come
out in sarcasm and arrogance. Don't remember which one. I think that is what decided
the Elvenking to declare them trespassers. He had some excuse for that, imo, but I
think a couple of days in the dungeons would have been punishment enough.

 
Quote
"He seems to say you shouldn't fight needlessly, but should be ready to fight, and
he definitely admires the glory and heroism involved."
  I think you're right, PAT, and I can sympathize. I can always admire self-sacrificing
heroism and courageous action. There's no 'glory' in slaughtering people from a safe
distance with the push of a button. With modern weapons, we are now able to destroy
mankind and the planet earth, and our precarious safety depends on our restraint in
their use.  God help us!

     Nothing like a deadly threat from a common enemy to bring opposing sides to agreement.
Elves, Men, and dwarves alike  join their enemies in planning their defense from the goblins, wargs and wolves coming on fast.   And Gandalf is with them,  as always, in the nick of time. This wizard has unquestionably got more powers than he has let anyone see thus far.  Will he reveal more in this crisis, I wonder?

  "....defeat may be glorious."   Bilbo's opinion on that  "It seems very uncomfortable, not to say distressing. I wish I was well out of it."    The little fellow does have a talent for understatement.
  Still, it's true, isn't it,  that we memorialize some defeats as glorious?  I'm thinking of such as the Alamo, Thermopylae...    What makes such losses 'glorious'?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 07, 2012, 11:08:00 AM
Frybabe, I too appreciate your bringing those themes to our attention  here. Perhaps we can all be on the lookout for others.

Babi, I think that the fact that Thorin and the other dwarves wouldn't tell the elves why they were in their forest is the main reason the elves kept them prisoners, though there seems to be fault for the impasse on both sides.

 Near the end of Chapter 8, Tolkien describes the Wood-elves..."These are not wicked folk. If they have a fault, it is distrust of strangers.... They differed from the High Elves of the West, and they were more dangerous and less wise.... Still elves they were and remain, and that is Good People."

The elves found Thorin, the first of the dwarves to be captured by the spiders and they dragged him away to their king's cave/dungeons. "they did not love dwarves and thought he was an enemy.... In ancient days they had had wars with some of the dwarves whom they accused of stealing their treasure." The ancient dwarves had a different story...about not being paid for their services and only taking what was owed them.

When questioned by the elf king about his reason for being in the forest at all, Thorin "shut his mouth and would  not say another word. 'Very well,' said the king. 'Take him away and keep him safe, until he feels inclined to tell the truth, even if he waits a hundred years.'"

So it looks like past misunderstandings, offenses and ill will continue to plague the Wood-elves and dwarves. Will they be able to put aside their differences if faced with a common enemy -- the terrible goblins?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 07, 2012, 04:12:50 PM
When the black clouds of bats and goblins appeared, I noticed the goblins' red and black banners and immediately felt these colors meant something...
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on December 07, 2012, 05:22:30 PM
this is a repeat that was recommended we include it here in the Hobbit since they too are traveling and learning as they go...

Why We Travel - http://www.worldhum.com/features/travel-stories/why-we-travel-20081213/
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JudeS on December 08, 2012, 12:40:32 AM
Barb
Thank You so much for that wonderful article on travel!
I will pass it on to others.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 08, 2012, 01:07:05 AM
When the black clouds of bats and goblins appeared, I noticed the goblins' red and black banners and immediately felt these colors meant something...

You're probably right, Joan. I haven't found info about the colors yet.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on December 08, 2012, 09:26:10 AM
 Thanks for posting that description of the wood-elves, MARCIE. I remember parts of
it, but putting it succinctly as you did was really helpful in understanding the
differences.

 JOANP, I think you will find this article interesting, re. red and black banners.
http://www.infoshop.org/AnarchistFAQAppendix2

 Hard-headed Thorin.  He succumbed to the dwarves greatest weakness,  the obsession for gold and treaure.   Wiser too late,  his last words to Bilbo  were, "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded goal, it would be a merrier world. But sad or merry,  I must leave it now.  Farewell."   
 I found this so appropriate. They buried Thorin deep in his mountain, and Bard placed his beloved Arkenstone on his chest.  And the Elvenking laid upon his tomb the sword Orcrist, which he had taken from Thorin while he was captive with them.   I believe he had earned those tributes.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 08, 2012, 10:04:01 AM
When the black clouds of bats and goblins appeared, I noticed the goblins' red and black banners and immediately felt these colors meant something...
They certainly meant something to Tolkien.  In LOTR, they tend to be associated with evil.  The army of Orcs (new name for the goblins) has black banners, and the all-seeing Eye of Sauron (who had a bit part here as the Necromancer) is red, rimmed with fire, with a black pupil.  Here's a banner with the eye; it's rather tame, but based on a sketch by Tolkien.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Mordor.JRRT.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Mordor.JRRT.jpg)
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 08, 2012, 10:53:23 AM
I know that a black flag has always been associated with anarchy.  Not long ago, someone posted here of Tolkien's war experience.  My thoughts went to the German flag colors...the black, the red...and later,  the gold.  Going back further, I came across this article that may be of interest to those looking for a parallel to war...
Tolkien wrote in his Forward to Lord of the Rings:

"One has indeed personally to come under the shadow of war to feel fully its oppression; but as the years go by it seems now often forgotten that to be caught in youth by 1914 was no less hideous an experience than to be involved in 1939 and the following years. By 1918, all but one of my close friends were dead."

Here's the whole article...photos and everything...
J.R.R. Tolkien’s service in the British Army during World War I (http://greenbooks.theonering.net/guest/files/040102_02.html)
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 08, 2012, 11:45:10 AM
Babi, PatH and JoanP, thanks very much for all of the informative and interesting links in the last several posts. (Babi, the site of your link is unavailable right now; I'll check back later.)  Those links help me to see more in the story. I appreciate what the author of your last link, JoanP, says about the effect of his war experiences on Tolkien's writing (that there seems to be a deep, underlying effect, though Tolkien has said that he wasn't directly writing about the war):

"Tolkien himself stated that the war had only a limited influence on his writing. However, it is also true that people are shaped by times in which they live. I think it is likely that Tolkien drew on his memories of fighting on the Western Front while writing The Lord of the Rings – perhaps because at the time he was writing it, England was again engaged in total war with Germany, a war that in many ways was the continuation of the one in which he had served. Even though Tolkien denied that his writing was based on his life, he once wrote to his son Christopher regarding his war experiences:

    … I took to 'escapism': or really transforming experience into another form and symbol with Morgoth and Orcs and the Eldalie (representing beauty and grace of life and artefact) and so on; and it has stood me in good stead in many hard years since and I still draw on the conceptions then hammered out."
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 08, 2012, 01:13:00 PM
Now you've got me thinking of our little Hobbit - Bilbo wants nothing more than to go home, doesn't want to participate in this war - any more than Tolkien did, from what we can read of his experience in World War I.  Do you notice whenever fighting/war breaks out, Bilbo seems to be knocked unconscious and when he comes to, remembers nothing of it?  His own form of "escapism"?  Do you think Tolkien saw himself in Bilbo - maybe without even being aware of it?   That's one way to deal with war memories.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on December 08, 2012, 03:25:31 PM
Well I just need to read further because frankly I was not enjoying this story at all - there was no nobility about it - I reviewed the first chapter where the adventure was laid out by Thorin and I realize I did not read it taking what Thorin said that seriously focusing instead on Bilbo and even Gandalf - I can see for me reading the first chapter was like a shell game - my attention was not on Thorin -

I do have an aversion to trying to take back as if there is implied ownership land or wealth lost by some family member in past generations - as an American I know I am guilty but I also know personally and within my family there were all sorts of great losses - we got through by realizing what was lost was over and to hang on kept you trapped in the past and then to realize all this with visions of wealth that so what - the one who gained the wealth is not handling it or sharing it as you would - we can say that about anything - our ownership ends when the wealth is lost regardless how it is lost -

But then using the concept of loss as a metaphysical symbol I see new struggles to understand the concept taught of a returning God to claim what was given but like when we were kids, if I am to understand the covenants and promises, it only amounts to Indian Giving. We may not have done as well as was imagined but after leaving Eden it was ours to mess up or make better and we did a bit of both.

I have read many a myth and some fantasy where there is a quest but there is something noble about the quest and even the magic is shown with character we would like to emulate - this story has a dark dankness about it with the various adventures over shadowed by a greyness - it is not a story I am enjoying but maybe when I get to where you say JoanP that Bilbo sees his home as his shining light that is his rebirth then Tolkien in my eyes will have redeemed himself. Oh I can easily imagine his imagination is the result of his WWI experience however, this is not how this story has been championed - I am now questioning if I want to see the movie -

I remember being very disappointed with the first movie of the trilogy - when I read the trilogy I saw it as an inner fight within ourselves where as, the movie made all the bad guys, so to speak, so horrible you could not identify with that kind of darkness - but here, with the Hobbit I see the quest as I would put it, ridiculous - you just do not go around claiming what someone in your family lost in the past as if the ownership is still yours and then, to put that many people through that kind of fearful experiences just for gold that a great grandfather lost regardless stolen, taken or as a result of a war - sheesh.  But more, an agh and grrrr and brrrr and a few more shakes of the head.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JudeS on December 08, 2012, 04:06:01 PM
Well Barb,
Thanks for your analysis. I agree with much of it.
This book is not my cup of tea. "Nuff said.

 I want to remind you all about my special interest in Gollum. There is a two page article in this week's Time Magazine that deals with Gollum, seeing him as the dark side of this movie.
They say
"At a pivotal moment, our Hero encounters Gollum, the haggard creature from TLoTR' Though Gollum is 60 years younger in  The Hobbit  he is already torn between  his desire to be good and his dark addiction to a certain bijou. His coooing over  his "precious" is hauntingly familiar.
The rest of the article is devoted to a new cinema technique called Synthespians. Gollum , played by Andy Serkis, is referred to by him as "My Dorian Grey". The whole new technique is a way of making these fictional characters much more real. and
life like. However this technique is mainly focused on Gollum who the filmakers see as an important part of the script.

I wonder how much of the original story will remain in the movie and which parts wil be minimized or deleted.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on December 08, 2012, 04:16:55 PM
I could see someone writing a back story on Gollum - he seems like a someone damaged during his childhood and to have him as an image in our mind's eye when we encounter the many damaged humans who cannot get it together seems appropriate -

to my dislike of the book I am reminded of this Robert H. Schuller quote;
Always look at what you have left. Never look at what you have lost.

Well onward - pages left to read...
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 08, 2012, 04:48:22 PM
I don't think the point of the quest for Bilbo is about helping the dwarves get back their lost treasure.  I'll hold off saying more until the last chapter, though.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 08, 2012, 05:19:18 PM
JoanP, that was a remarkably interesting link about Tolkien's war service.  Some of the correspondence of WWI and LOTR is obvious, but I hadn't quite realized how much detail there was--the creepy Marshes of the Dead, for instance.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on December 08, 2012, 05:20:45 PM
Quote
Do you notice whenever fighting/war breaks out, Bilbo seems to be knocked unconscious and when he comes to, remembers nothing of it? His own form of "escapism"?  Do you think Tolkien saw himself in Bilbo - maybe without even being aware of it? That's one way to deal with war memories.  

JoanP, good point. Since this was written for his children, I imagine he did not want to describe the horrors of war and give the children nightmares.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on December 08, 2012, 05:48:59 PM
http://www.thehobbitblog.com/
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 09, 2012, 01:01:02 AM
Interesting thoughts here. As Pat says, it doesn't seem that Bilbo has been co-opted into the same quest that Thorin has. He's sort of turned things on their  head by taking the Arkenstone and giving it to the "other side" in order to avoid a war. I think that Bilbo, not Thorin, is the protagonist of the story.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on December 09, 2012, 02:26:04 AM
All that is left is the last chapter - we have Bilbo returning from his adventure - Jude did you figure out what was Bilbo's quest -

There were so many things happening around Bilbo so that for part of the time during the climactic battle he was laying on a stone knocked out and earlier he made himself invisible so that again he was not part of the goings on - does that mean the battle was not part of Bilbo's adventure - if not whose adventure was it?

Who changed during the story - coming home does Bilbo see himself differently - would he go running after some dwarfs to be a part of some unknown adventure or was he more self-contained so that the Baggins side of his personality was in the forefront - or was he totally different beyond either the Baggins or Tuck influence?

Was there a message to this story - what was Tolkien trying to say by telling this long and involved although very well brought together story?

Could you keep everyone sorted out during the battle of the five armies. What was the meaning of the battle - was it just a way to bring all the parts and groups together or did the battle provide a message to the reader.

Gold illuminates the quality of sacredness, incorruptibility, wisdom, nobility and wealth - to Christians, gold represents ambivalence as both the pure light, spiritual treasure given by Christ, triumph in adversity, incorruptibility but also, idolatry - The Golden Calf - and worldly wealth.

Seems to me that those in the story who held a claim to the gold were not very wise and many like Smaug tended toward idolatry - is the plea by the Bard for gold to compensate the Lake people and the wood-elves just that - the pull between Justice as spiritual treasure versus, Idolatry that shows itself as greed - Even Bilbo uses his gold to buy back what was more important to him than gold - his possessions. You have to give him some Kudos for using the precious stone to affect peace.

Is it a real quest or adventure when willy nilly you can appear and then disappear - you can protect yourself when you choose or are there other aspects of the story that make this a quest adventure for Bilbo. Comparing Bilbo's ability to disappear with Harry Potter's invisibility cape Harry had many other touchstones of differences that made his venture complete to the fact his parents were fighting the evil that he is dealing with during his adventure. Was Bilbo fighting evil - who was evil - was Thorin evil - how was Smaug evil - was Gollum evil - what about the Master of Laketown was he evil?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on December 09, 2012, 02:26:43 AM
My take is that none of the characters are the protagonist - they all add bits and pieces to the adventure - we get to see other sides of them as they engage in this venture - to me it was the Trip that was the protagonist - it provided adventure - comfort - opportunity for both risk and bravery and the opportunity to use your wits, and your free will. With the many twists and turns, rivers, mountains, forests, fields it seems to me the Trip was a character that showed more change than any of the dwarfs, hobbits, wizards, goblins, elves, kings you name it.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 09, 2012, 08:20:22 AM
Ooops.  I thought we were going to talk about the last chapter starting tomorrow.  I'll have to reread it, but in the meantime I'll get my thoughts together about the battle.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 09, 2012, 08:29:43 AM

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

 November Book Club Online
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hobbit/hobbitcover.jpg)
 The Hobbit turns 75 this fall, an occasion likely to cause many thousands of people to reflect with fondness on their childhood memories of the adventures of Bilbo Baggins.

Though a much loved and widely respected children’s book, this work is too often overlooked by adults who relegate it to the nursery bookshelf.  "The Hobbit is a brilliantly constructed story unfolding themes that adult readers will still find compellingly relevant to the modern world: themes such as the nature of evil and the significance of human choice, or the corruptive power of greed and the ease with which good people can be drawn into destructive conflict." Corey Olsen is an Assistant Professor of English at Washington College in Maryland

 Bilbo Baggins begins as a cautious and conservative hobbit, well respected and considered a pillar of the hobbit community. When he reluctantly sets out on a quest to recover the stolen treasure of a band of dwarves, he encounters dangers of all descriptions. His adventures, which figure prominently in a prophecy of the dwbarves, are like stepping stones on the inner journey Biblo must take to find his courage. Bilbo faces trials which again and again force him to look deep inside himself for the strength and resourcefulness he needs to complete the task expected of him.

Discussion Schedule
Ch 19 and overall Dec 10-13 Now Discussing

Questions for Consideration

To notice for the whole book:

Tolkien incorporated many elements of myth, legend, and fairy tale.  What ones do you see?  Are they effective?

The story takes place in Middle Earth.  Is this our world?  How is it the same or different?

The Hobbit is a prelude to The Lord of the Rings.  If you are familiar with LOTR, notice which elements are present here, and what differences there are.

What different races of creatures do we meet?  What is each like?

What was Bilbo's quest?

Who changed during the story?

There seems to be a lot of luck and coincidence in this story.  Is it really luck? If not, what is it?

Chapter 19.

1. As he returns home, how do the other hobbits respond to Bilbo?

2. Does Bilbo see himself differently? What's important to him?

 
Discussion Leaders:    PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net ); Marcie (marciei@aol.com), Babi (pmg371@aol.com), Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com )


Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 09, 2012, 08:34:26 AM
I see GREED as the real villain  - but not clear about the protagonist here.  Sometimes I  hear Tolkien saying that each man has the capacity for good and evil-doing  -an inner battle between choosing what we know is right - and what is irresistible. Is Bilbo Everyman?
  I'm not sure if the battle is strong enough within Bilbo to make him stand out as the protagonist.  As the journey nears to an end, and Bilbo nears home, I'm curious to know if he still has the ring in his pocket?  Or will that be revealed in the final chapter?  Perhaps that will be his treasure.
 
I'd like to hear more from you all about Thorain. Like Barbara, I wasn't focused on him. -until the end when he assumed a central role. Why did he choose to take back the Mountain from Smaug at this particular time in history?  Was it because Smaug was posing such a danger to surrounding inhabitants and the dwarves felt compelled to stop him - and take back what was once theirs?
  
And then again, determined to hold the Mountain once Smaug was overcome, what made  Thorain step forward and call a halt to the siege? 

Off to a family gathering until tomorrow - it is fascinating to read the different reactions to the story.  My 10 year old nephew will be at this party. I'm giving him a copy of the book, though I do have a back-up present if there is a problem with it...a problem with his mother's reaction. :D
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on December 09, 2012, 09:43:59 AM
First, I want to pass on to you this treasure, posted in the Library, by PEDLN.
Scroll down 3-4 rows and you will find marvelous 'Hobbit' gifts.
http://pinterest.com/akpearl/a-book-lover-s-christmas/

 BARB, your interest in symbolism comes through in everything. It's as though everything means something else; that there are hidden meanings, 'spiritual' meanings, to every action. I sometimes wonder if the author could possibly have intended all that you see.

 It was satisfying to read that Dain remained,  the new King of the Mountain.  I like to imagine, in my cheerful lapses into fantasy,  to imagine such places and such beings as still there.  The same with Beorn and his bear-man descendents.  What would I not give to spend a spring and summer in those meadows. 

 Does it seem a bit much to the rest of you, that Bilbo's sense of integrity required him to make an expensive gift to the Elvenking on parting with him.  Sure,  he swiped some food and drink while he was there, invisibly working toward freeing his friends.  But under those circumstnces,  I would hardly think myself indebted to their captor.


Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on December 09, 2012, 12:15:20 PM
Seems that I do see many facets of aspects of a story - however, when it comes to myth and fantasy wrapped in myth symbolism is most often the crux of the story - like going down the street and knowing the symbols for a barber shop and a gas station - you see the symbol and know what it means and what to expect. Over the years I have picked up several books listing and explaining the meaning of traditional symbols - I also practice a faith that is steeped in symbolism as are the ceremonies in most religions - as a nation we have a few, like the flag and knowing what the first Monday in October means along with some of the permanent holidays but with so many of them moving holidays now they have lost their references.

This is said to be a book about good and evil and so being observant of the exchanges between characters that show that battle of good and evil seems to be part of the read. I remember as a kid we had whole classroom discussions on if it was evil to take bare necessities - then we were talking about the character in Les Mis which we read in 8th grade and earlier there were some short stories that I no longer remember although, I believe also written by Maupassant. The topic of taking basics came up and it was decided that it was wrong - and so today, reading how Bilbo burgled food seemed reasonable and yet, back during mid-twentieth century it was considered wrong. And so with that I guess we can say that Bilbo represents both good and evil - to me he is a good one throughout.

It was Thorin who surprised me - like JoanP it never occurred what was his intent and yet, when you re-read that first chapter it is all there. Made me feel vulnerable to how often I am being fooled because I have one viewpoint and the other event that seems out of sight or beyond belief is ignored. I am thinking that is what this nation did about Global Warming - granted there were two sides to the issue and if the one side was spouting their pooh poohing of the situation hmm I guess they were like Thorin, wanting what was - that provided them with wealth - hmm more examples than at first flush reading this book -

I still felt uncomfortable with the story and feel the story was just a chance to dump a lot of unwarranted  turmoil that was supposed to be under the surface for generations. As if we are our history - not taking into consideration cause and effect - most turmoil does have an immediate or still simmering cause - in this story instead of 'the devil made me do it' Tolkien seems to be saying 'my deceased great grandfather made me do it.'
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JudeS on December 09, 2012, 01:00:22 PM
Since all of you see so much in this book that I don't I keep trying to understand "THE QUEST in the book.
Well it came to me after I read an aricle in the magazine section of our newspaper. It was an interview with Marin Freeman who plays Bilbo in the movie.
He says that  Peter Jackson sees Bilbo as intelligent, funny, surprising and brave. Also that"BIlbo finds himself in
situations where , either for himself or his comrades, he has to act. That is real heroism".

Now I read the account of Tolkiens wartime experience twice even before  it was posted on this site. I see his experience as different than the comments made by others here.
First of all Tolkien put off joining the army till 1916 while most of his contemporaries were in from 1914. Some had already died. He  spent less than a year on the front after contracting  both Trench Foot and Trench Fever. He spent the rest of the war in England  since he was found unfit for duty in battle. On the Front  more of his friends and colleagues were dying. Tolkien spent the rest of the war doing office duties at his home headquarters. During this period Tolkiens first son was born.
I beleive that Bilbo's struggles to act and act correctly when the need arose was Tolkiens struggle.
The need for "real" action to save one's comrades was Tolkiens unfinished experience which he put to rest by writing this book which really was his first.
 So many dead friends must have left a residue in Tolkiens concious that he, unlike them, survived and returned to his own bed. To assuage that guilt we have the mild and undistinguished Bilbo who is a lopsided hero but a hero never the less.

So there is the Quest that I was searching for.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on December 09, 2012, 01:52:10 PM
hmmm interesting - I like it - not something i would have thought through and yet, it fits so well - thanks Jude.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 10, 2012, 12:01:57 AM
By protagonist, I'm thinking "main character" of the story. I do see that as Bilbo, "the hobbit" of the book title. It seems to me that the book is mainly about him and his actions/reactions.

 In the beginning Bilbo seems set in his ways and usually content to keep to the background. Then, he takes on the challenge of being the "burglar" among the troop of dwarves, mostly it seems to me because he felt backed into it and his "Took" side took over. During the journey, he had several opportunities to show courage, ingenuity and skill and, as Jude points out, he made the choice to take action even at the risk of his life.

I appreciate your bringing that analysis  here, Jude. It makes sense to me.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on December 10, 2012, 12:18:31 AM
interesting article about the difference between the protagonist and the main character.

http://storyfanatic.com/articles/story-structure/the-true-definition-of-a-protagonist

I thought the protagonist was the one who shows the most change - now I am thoroughly confused.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Frybabe on December 10, 2012, 08:26:47 AM
That is a little confusing.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 10, 2012, 09:06:10 AM
I might have found the article less confusing if I had read or seen any of the stories he was talking about.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on December 10, 2012, 09:52:20 AM
 Deep topic for a classroom discussion, BARB. I would suppose it was intended to
help young people make moral choices. As a kid, I would have decided the same way, I'm sure. Now that I'm much older and have had time to consider more carefully, I see another point of view. In the Christian ethic, we are commanded to feed the hungry and clothe the naked. If we did so, they would not be driven to theft in order to survive. The right to life is also confirmed in our earliest documents as a nation. So now, it seems to me that the wrong, the 'evil', is most squarely on those who fail to share what we have to meet the needs of desperate fellow beings.
  Oh, my. Somebody help me down off this soapbox.  ::)

  So now we are on the last stage of our adventure, very tired, I'm sure.
  Once again, happily, we get to stay a while at Elrond's house.  One could recover from most anything there, I believe.   I had to smile at the elves singing a 'lullaby'  under his window while he was already sleeping.  And Bilbo wakes and goes to the window and informs the 'merry people', "Your lullaby would waken a drunken goblin!  Yet, I thank you."   I wouldn't mind that myself, especially as I could then go back to bed. 
 
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 10, 2012, 10:07:41 AM
One more comment about the battle.  The attack of the goblins and wargs saved the day in a way.  It came just in time to stop the elves, men and dwarves from fighting each other, so even though many lives were lost, afterward the 3 peoples could co-exist peacefully.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 10, 2012, 10:43:32 AM
That's a good point, Pat. The goblin attack was turned into an opportunity to work together, although many lives were lost. Lives would have been lost too, if the dwarves had fought the elves and men.

Ginny shared an interesting short article about the Tolkien manuscripts which are housed at the University of Marquette. The article is at
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/09/opinion/sunday/hobbits-in-the-heartland.html

Near the bottom of the article is a link to a lecture by a Tolkien scholar. It's fascinating and included information (about halfway through) about the 1937 version of THE HOBBIT which had very different interactions between Bilbo and Gollum. It's the 1960's version that we've been reading together, which was re-written after Tolkien wrote Lord of the Rings.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 10, 2012, 10:46:19 AM
  Once again, happily, we get to stay a while at Elrond's house.  One could recover from most anything there, I believe.   I had to smile at the elves singing a 'lullaby'  under his window while he was already sleeping.  And Bilbo wakes and goes to the window and informs the 'merry people', "Your lullaby would waken a drunken goblin!  Yet, I thank you."   I wouldn't mind that myself, especially as I could then go back to bed. 

Babi, I too smiled at Bilbo's typically wry reaction. I love the humor that surrounds Bilbo's character in much of the story.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on December 10, 2012, 03:34:11 PM
Well Pat for that you get a gold star - all that goings on during the battle - stars and medals to anyone who could sort out who was with whom and where they were heading and where they came from and what they were protecting - Holy Hannah - but you sorted it out and got something from it. Rah Rah -

I got the impression that Tolkien sees these wars as the result of ancient fights when towns were destroyed after they were plundered - do you think all this was a grudge match for the elves?

Then when Bilbo gets home he has another skirmish on his hands with the very folks who were friends and neighbors - is life being depicted as nothing but an effort to protect what you have - and live on your own keeping a safe distance from even neighbors who have another idea of how you should live?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 11, 2012, 08:54:45 AM
We took the long way home from New Jersey yesterday.  Got home later than planned.

We drove  through The shore towns... No longer front page news...we forget those in New York/New Jersey who have lost everything...with winter coming on.  The saddest are those who are simply camping in the moldy homes with no heat or electricity... Mold seems to be the biggest problem right now...piles of appliances, furniture, cabinets, insulation in front of nearly every home. Where are they taking all of this contaminated stuff?  You can't just dump it in the land fill, can you?  Mold and housing for those who lost everything will be a major problem for a long time to come.

  My brother spoke of the tent cities for those evacuated from schools - but when we rode through the grounds of Monmouth race track, last week "home" to thousands - they were gone.  Where to?  Of course some of these homes are summer homes to some, but the little homes and businesses?  Where can they go?  What can they do?  When was the last time you saw a report or an article on the aftermath of Sandy? 
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 11, 2012, 09:10:12 AM
I appreciated the article on the difference between  Protagonist and Main Character, Barb.

Quote
"The difference between the two is simple: The Main Character represents the audience’s eyes into the story, the Protagonist pursues the goal of the story...
the character who is driven to Pursue the Goal is the Protagonist."

If accepting this difference, I would conclude that Bilbo is the main character, but not the protagonist.  The next question - who was the protagonist?  Does there have to be one? :D  Was it Thorin?

Marcie, as I was reading an article in the US Today Weekend magazine on the way home yesterday.  It was mainly an article on the British actor who plays Bilbo...  He says he hadn't read The Hobbit until he heard he might play the part - "I was suprised by the tone of it. I didn't think it would be as humorous as it was.  I thought it might take intself a bit too seriously."
I thought that was promising.  He gets it!  I might want to see the movie after all - just to see his portrayal of Bilbo.  He is quoted in the article -
"No real-life hero ever thinks he's heroic.  Bilbo finds himself in situations where, either for himself or his comrades, he has to act.  That's real heroism."
  
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on December 11, 2012, 09:36:16 AM
last minute details this morning - still need to run down to Fed EX - I wonder also where they all went - with Katrina we were all taking them in our homes - some for months both Here in Texas and in Northern Louisiana - many stayed so that we have all sorts of influence now in Austin as they brought with them their music adding to ours and their special foods - in summer there are these impromptu ice cream type stands - I have not tried it yet but there is an ice cream and a drink that folks from New Orleans included in their life.

As to the protagonist - I think we would have to decide what was the goal - re-reading chapter one Thorin had his goal all set - Bilbo was a come along but then behind the enterprise you had the feeling it was Gandalf running the show... Next time I check in the discussion will be over but I am anxious to see who y'all decide in the protagonist of this story...
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 11, 2012, 10:08:17 AM
Quote
"...had the feeling it was Gandalf running the show"
 Of course he was, Barbara.  What was Gandalf's role?  Was he in fact  the protagonist then?

He was right there with Bilbo from beginning to end every step of the way.  Not interested in treasure.  Refused to take any  Turned down the buried gold and silver, telling Bilbo he would probably find a use for it... which we now learn, he did.  Maybe we have to read on into the Lord of the Rings to learn what motivates the wizard?

What a contrast between the elves warm and joyful welcome...and Bilbo's own welcome back to the place he was born and bred.  They thought he had died, he's been gone for a year.  
Quote
"Not everybody that said so was sorry to find the presumption wrong."  
It was GREED again, wasn't it?  Bilbo knows what Greed can do.  This isn't too much of a surprise to him. He has learned that during the past year.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on December 11, 2012, 10:10:11 AM
Aren't there story lines where the protagonist pursuing the goal is also the one
telling the story?  And in "The Hobbit", what do you think is 'the goal'? I note that
BARB asks the same question.  Many of the characters have their particular goal. But what is the author's goal?

 And now, home at last! Reputation in tatters, of course.  And declared dead, with relatives and neighbors coming to buy everything he owned, and the Sackville-Baggins happily making plans to move into his nice home.  Upset everyone terribly by Bilbo's return.
  And how must these old neighbors now appear to Bilbo, after all he has seen
and done?  I can see that they no longer have as much in common. Their attitude
is certainly narrow and unfriendly...except for the children, who are enthralled.
On the whole, I find it reasonable that Bilbo would be quite content with the
comforts of his home, and the inquisitive children, and the occasional visitor.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 11, 2012, 10:41:19 AM
I'm still thinking about whether I agree with the alternative definition of protagonist presented in the article but, whatever we call those characters, I do think it's interesting to figure out the goal of this story and the roles that the characters played in bringing about the goal or trying to prevent it from happening.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Lorac625 on December 11, 2012, 01:40:19 PM
I am not certain,but I think Tolkien's goals for The Hobbit might have changed when he decided it was "only" a prequel to TLOTR.
   I read Pat Murphy's  There and Back Again.  Will there be discussion?
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 11, 2012, 07:42:51 PM
Quote
"And now, home at last! Reputation in tatters, of course."
So true, Babi...this is not the hobbit we met before the adventure - afraid to turn away anyone from his door at any hour...respectable, predictable. He dresses more flamboyantly, now-look at those gold buttons, his bejeweled belt!  He fraternizes with elves, writes songs and poetry too.  His old neighbors call him "queer." Is this what Gandalf meant when he told him "Something is the matter with you. You are not the same hobbit that you were?"  

I thought he had changed when he obviously didn't care what neighbors thought... His new- found confidence. Prefers to entertain elves! And that ring! He still has it in his pocket - even uses it to avoid unwanted guests!  

An interesting question, Lorac. Is this the ring of the title Lord of the Ring, do you think? ? Will Bilbo be a main character in the upcoming trilogy?

Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 11, 2012, 07:49:42 PM
I was surprised to see this drawing by the author himself at the end of this chapter in the annotated edition.
(http://corecanvas.s3.amazonaws.com/theonering-0188db0e/gallery/original/jrrt_30.jpg)
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 11, 2012, 09:09:40 PM
The picture surprises me too, Joan, although I like it. Somehow I saw Bilbo's hobbit hole with a lower ceiling and more stuffed with furnishing and things.... more cozy. And we talked before about this fellow not looking very hobbit like.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 11, 2012, 10:17:33 PM
Well he does have those hobbit feet...

Under the drawing, there's an observation by some Tolkien enthusiasts on the discrepancy between the relative proportions of Bilbo and the door, which I found amusing:
"As drawn the hobbit would have had to stand on a chair to reach the knob."

It is a much grander hall than I had imagined too.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on December 12, 2012, 10:13:02 AM
Oh, thanks for mentioning the Pat Murphy book, LORAC.  I knew "There and Back Again" only as the subtitle of "The Hobbit".  I was definitely getting confused about a possible new discussion.

  I was glad to see the drawing, JOANP, as it explains how big people like Gandalf
could come in. But it does seem very strange that a small hobbit would want such
a huge place. I also noticed that he could barely reach to latch his door and would
need a ladder to wind his clock.

 We close,  appropriately, with a return visit from Gandolf.   Who presents Tolkiens young readers with their final lesson:  "You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in wide world after all!"
  To which Bilbo cheerfully replies, "Thank goodness!"
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 12, 2012, 11:12:33 AM
Babi, I had overlooked the fact that human-sized Gandalf had no trouble in the hobbit house. I wonder if hobbits had many "tall" visitors.

The ending does provide a broader perspective on things.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 12, 2012, 04:30:34 PM
Remember Bilbo hosted 13 dwarves along with Gandalf in this hole at the beginning of the story. :D

I started the final chapter hoping to find the answers to two questions.  What made Gandalf think that Bilbo would be helpful to the dwarves' cause?  And then the question about the ring - how did Bilbo come into its possession - and what will he do with it back at the Shire?  Neither of these questions were addressed in the last chapter - but I have an Appendix in the Annotated Edition -  Appendix A written by Tolkien containing the article, "The Quest of Erebor," subtitled,
"Gandalf's account of how he came to arrange the expedition to Erebor and send Bilbo with the Dwarves."

The appendix follows chapter 19.  If your copy doesn't have it, I'd be glad to share what I learned.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JudeS on December 12, 2012, 04:42:16 PM
Joan P
Interesting.
We both quoted what Peter Jackson said (My post #284. yours # 295) with different perspectives.

Fascinating that we all read this same article and story or book and see totally different things.
More so in this story than any of the others I have followed with this site for the last three or four years.

I asked myself why is this so?
Of course there is no one definitive answers but these are some possibilities.
1) Attitudes toward Science Fiction.
2) Attitudes towards Children's Literature.
3)Personal experience with the world of Elves , Hobbits, Dwarves and Dragons.

Anyone want to add other reasons?


Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: hats on December 12, 2012, 04:46:50 PM
Sorry I didn't complete The Hobbit with all of you. I hope it's still possible to read the discussion in the archives. Congrats to all of you who made the whole journey. :)
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 12, 2012, 04:56:52 PM
Lorac and Babi--"Are we going to discuss Pat Murphy's There and Back Again"?  That depends on what anyone wants.  I had suggested that it might be rewarding to read this light-hearted science fiction take-off right after reading the original.  It wouldn't merit a long, detailed discussion like this, but we could do a short discussion, say a week or two, in any format people would like.  It could wait until January if everyone is getting too tied up in the holidays.  It's real science fiction, stands on its own if you haven't read The Hobbit.  So would anyone like to do it? I'm open to suggestions as to timing and length.  I'm guessing this would interest only 3 or 4 people at most, but that's enough for something short.

My post 202 in this discussion gives details of how to get the book.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on December 12, 2012, 07:42:58 PM
Catching up on all the email that piles up when you travel - and this was in the pile that I thought was perfect as an explanation of the Hobbit -

TRAINING WITH UNCERTAINTY

Many of us prefer practices that will not cause discomfort, yet at the same time we want to be healed. A warrior accepts that we can never know what will happen to us next. We can try to control the uncontrollable by looking for security and predictability, always hoping to be comfortable and safe. But the truth is that we can never avoid uncertainty. This not knowing is part of the adventure, and it’s also what makes us afraid.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 12, 2012, 09:39:28 PM
Jude, could you say a bit more about the different perspectives? I didn't see you and JoanP so far apart in your posts about Bilbo's "heroism." I do, though, see some very different perspectives here on the book.

To  your list I would add:

Fascinating that we all read this same article and story or book and see totally different things.
More so in this story than any of the others I have followed with this site for the last three or four years.

I asked myself why is this so?
Of course there is no one definitive answers but these are some possibilities.
1) Attitudes toward Science Fiction.
2) Attitudes towards Children's Literature.
3)Personal experience with the world of Elves , Hobbits, Dwarves and Dragons.

Anyone want to add other reasons?

-- different perspectives on morality
-- different experiences with the spectrum of literal to figurative language
-- different views on religion
-- and, to pick up from Barbara's last post, different comfort levels with the idea of uncertainty
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 12, 2012, 09:40:57 PM
Pat, I just recently got the book THERE AND BACK AGAIN, and I'd love to talk about it. I've just started it.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JudeS on December 12, 2012, 10:54:12 PM
Marcie
Thanks for adding the extra categories.
Thought of them but didn't want to overspeak my peice.
But this is another peice of paper I am writing on, now. So I will add:

1)What constitutes a good book...
2)Do Dragons exist or are they symbols of Evil or of What We Fear..
3) As children, what did we learn about sharing....
4)What we think of the use of invisibility.

Please feel free to add comments or opposing views or simply add to the list.

Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on December 13, 2012, 02:32:18 AM
You have me thinking and the differences in how we read and interpret a book that comes up for me is our different life experiences and what we value - some can even share similar life experiences but value different moral choices and behavior as well as, we can innately value different ways of expressing life from music and poetry to heroic action and so we pick up different aspects of a story that shed light on what we value. I also think a good piece of literature has many layers so that we can enjoy and notice the story line from its action to its philosophical messages. That is why I think our discussions are so rich - we bring our different life experiences and values to our read and then to the discussion.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on December 13, 2012, 09:54:48 AM
 By all means, JOANP. I would love to know what Tolkien wrote about it.

 Oh, JUDE. Do tell me about any 'personal experiences' with elves, etc. That one
 had never occurred to me! I would be delighted to hear all about it.  And then, from
your next post, I think every child who ever read about 'invisibility' was enthralled
with the idea. Such fun to imagine what we could do if we could slip about unseen.

 January would be a great time for the Pat Murphy book, PAT. With my daughters help,
surely I can locate a copy by then. I definitely want to read the book.

 I think BARB has summed up the question quite accurately. The differences in how
we perceive a book comes from our own experiences and our own values, and the
person we have become because of them.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 13, 2012, 10:36:41 AM
JoanP, yes, please do share some of the appendix with us!
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 13, 2012, 01:38:50 PM
At the end of the book, Bilbo says to Gandalf:

“Then the prophesies of the old songs have turned out to be true, after a fashion?”

“Of course!” said Gandalf.  “And why should not they prove true?  Surely you don’t disbelieve the prophesies, because you had a hand in bringing them about yourself?  You don’t really suppose, do you, that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck, just for your own benefit?”

This sort of summarizes my take on the nature of Bilbo’s quest.  It’s not really about him, he’s sort of an instrument of fate. 

There is too much luck and coincidence for it to be really accidental.  The clues are meant to be deciphered, and people are meant to be in the right place at the right time.  It’s a little push to make success more likely.

Tolkien, in what he said was the most important passage in LOTR, said that the wheel of the world was turned by the small hand because the greater was looking elsewhere, and this is what Bilbo is doing in his small way.

“Roads go ever, ever on” and Bilbo has gone on with the road for a way, then stepped off to a safe haven, leaving the road to others.  He has grown in the process, as maybe all of us do when we manage to do what’s needed.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 13, 2012, 01:39:06 PM

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

 The Hobbit: Book & Film
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/hobbit/hobbitcover.jpg)
 The Hobbit turns 75 this fall, an occasion likely to cause many thousands of people to reflect with fondness on their childhood memories of the adventures of Bilbo Baggins.

Though a much loved and widely respected children’s book, this work is too often overlooked by adults who relegate it to the nursery bookshelf.  "The Hobbit is a brilliantly constructed story unfolding themes that adult readers will still find compellingly relevant to the modern world: themes such as the nature of evil and the significance of human choice, or the corruptive power of greed and the ease with which good people can be drawn into destructive conflict." Corey Olsen is an Assistant Professor of English at Washington College in Maryland

 Bilbo Baggins begins as a cautious and conservative hobbit, well respected and considered a pillar of the hobbit community. When he reluctantly sets out on a quest to recover the stolen treasure of a band of dwarves, he encounters dangers of all descriptions. His adventures, which figure prominently in a prophecy of the dwbarves, are like stepping stones on the inner journey Bilbo must take to find his courage. Bilbo faces trials which again and again force him to look deep inside himself for the strength and resourcefulness he needs to complete the task expected of him.

Discussion Schedule
Ch 19 and overall Dec 10-13 Now Discussing
Book & Film Dec 14-17

Questions for Consideration

To notice for the whole book:

Tolkien incorporated many elements of myth, legend, and fairy tale.  What ones do you see?  Are they effective?

The story takes place in Middle Earth.  Is this our world?  How is it the same or different?

The Hobbit is a prelude to The Lord of the Rings.  If you are familiar with LOTR, notice which elements are present here, and what differences there are.

What different races of creatures do we meet?  What is each like?

What was Bilbo's quest?

Who changed during the story?

There seems to be a lot of luck and coincidence in this story.  Is it really luck? If not, what is it?

Let's also talk about adaptations of the book, including the 2012 film, The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey, directed by Peter Jackson.

Chapter 19.

1. As he returns home, how do the other hobbits respond to Bilbo?

2. Does Bilbo see himself differently? What's important to him?

 
Discussion Leaders:    PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net ); Marcie (marciei@aol.com), Babi (pmg371@aol.com), Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com )

Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 13, 2012, 06:35:31 PM
Quote
"This sort of summarizes my take on the nature of Bilbo’s quest.  It’s not really about him, he’s sort of an instrument of fate."  

"...the wheel of the world was turned by the small hand because the greater was looking elsewhere, and this is what Bilbo is doing in his small way."

Exactly!  Well put, PatH!  In the Appendix, Tolkien expresses much the same idea regarding Bilbo's role in the tale - I'll try to be brief in summing up.  Those with the appendix, please feel free to fill in gaps.

The title of Tolkien's appendix A:  "Gandalf's account of how he came to arrange the expedition to Erebor and send Bilbo with the Dwarves."

Thorin was in a growing rage, wanting vengeance on the Dragon.  He met Gandalf on the road and invited him to his home, seeking counsel.  Gandalf had bigger concerns on his mind, mainly that Sauron had risen again and was about to declare a great war. He tells Thorin "there is s Shadow growing fast in the world." He tells him Sauron and Smaug will work together.  It would be advantageous to put down Smaug before the war begins.  Gandalf hadn't thought of enlisting Smaug's enemies, the dwarves before this. He had difficulty convincing Thorin that he would need more than his band of dwarves against Smaug...he'd need something unexpected.

Gandalf's plan is one of STEALTH.  Dwarves are not good at this.  He says he is going to suggest an absurd solution to the problem. "Take a hobbit with you."
It wasn't Gandalf's intention to paint the hobbit as a thief, a burglar, but rather one capable of "professional stealth."  Thorin continued to think of the hobbit as a burglar, though Bilbo had never stolen anything.

Why did Gandalf select Bilbo?  It seems that  years before, Gandalf spent time with  the Shire-folk...knew and liked Bilbo before his comng of age.  In selecting one hobbit out of all he knew, he preferred one with "a dash of Took" - knew that Bilbo was unattached...thought that was odd, though he guessed why it was.  "He had been left very well off and was his own master." But Gandalf guessed the real reason - "he wanted to remain unattached for some reason deep down, which he himself did not understand.  He wanted to be free to go when the chance came, or he had made up his courage.

More difficult to convince Thorin to bring the hobbit...Gandalf stresses a hobbit's courage, shrewdness. Convinces him that a hobbit really desires to have an adventure.

Thorin remain unconvinced. Gandalf leaves him with what I took as a threat...
"Curb your pride and your greed...I do not give my love or my trust lightly, Thorin, but I am fond of this hobbit, and I wish him well.  Treat him well and you have  my friendship to the end of your day."



Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 14, 2012, 12:01:32 AM
Thank you, Pat and Joan. Those explanations help alot. I like the idea of Bilbo being "unexpected." He's never gone on an adventure before. You never know what he'll do. The enemy (whoever they are) won't predict his moves either. It's like some kind of "random" chance in the universe.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 14, 2012, 07:48:37 AM
 I'm sensing an even deeper meaning here. Maybe there is more than random luck here.  Gandalf isn't certain his plan to combat the growing force of evil in the world will succeed either - but is counting on this little hobbit -
Although Bilbo has tendencies to live a rather self- centered life, Gandalf is ready to come to his aid when it is needed - when luck seems to fail.
He didn't just enlist the hobbit with a promise of a small fortune...and then leave him to fate.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on December 14, 2012, 08:11:02 AM
marcie your commenting on random and was it Pat who brought up Luck - both are in keeping with the Asian, especially Chinese philosophy - certainly explains many things we keep trying to show as cause and effect and then today we could apply the Chaos theory which is still an attempt at cause and effect  - found this great site listing the various patterns of organization with a brief explanation of each  http://faculty.washington.edu/ezent/impo.htm
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on December 14, 2012, 09:47:21 AM
Thank you so much!, JOAN. Just substituting 'professional stealth' for 'burglar'
made the choice more understandable. Gandalf knew hobbits, and believed them to
be 'shrewd'. The hobbit 'courage' was somewhat questionable in general, but he
was thinking specifically of the 'dash of Took'.
  A threat? Implied, I think, yes. To say "Treat him well and you have my friendship"
does rather suggest the alternative if Bilbo was not treated well. This has been so
helpful.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 15, 2012, 10:45:58 AM
The movie critics have spoken, and they don't like it.  Summarizing from the Washington Post and the New York Times, it's too long, too flashy, too ponderous, too overblown, not lighthearted enough.  It does have some good scenes, especially Bilbo's encounter with Gollum.  And the actor who plays Bilbo is very good.

How do they pad it out?  Partly with a lot of backstory, but I don't know the details.  This installment takes almost three hours, and gets them just a tad beyond being rescued from the forest by the eagles.

I mean to see it anyway--it will have enough good bits in it to make it worth my while--but maybe I'll wait a few days until I go to the west coast.  My SIL wants to see it with me, and that way I won't see it twice.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on December 15, 2012, 12:39:06 PM
too ponderous, too overblown, not lighthearted enough that is what I thought of the Trilogy done by Jackson - it is difficult to read any longer with the llighthearted feel of elves and dwarfs and their merry red hats that was the stuff of story time many a young child for several decades. Also I read the Trilogy and missed reading the Hobbit but when I read it was still easy to see the story as an interior versus exterior values story.  Now it is good and bad simplifying all morality.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on December 16, 2012, 08:36:19 AM
Three hours just to get to the eagle rescue? Yes, I would say that is way too long.
Are the next two films in the trilogy to be that long?  Why didn't they just make
it a 9-week TV series and be done with it? 
  The only way I could watch this is to get it on tape and break up the viewing sessions.
Which, of course, means I won't be seeing it any time soon.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 16, 2012, 01:54:32 PM
I read the same review in the Washington Post that you did, PatH.  And another that commented on the length, not lighthearted enough...for a kid.  But I read comments too -  on the fact that the film stayed true to the book.  Interesting...perked up when I read that.

Pat, did the woman in your book group go in costume?  I'm curious if many did...Not seeing photos of the crowd, just photos of Bilbo Baggins...
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 16, 2012, 04:04:08 PM
She wasn't in costume at the meeting, but we finished around 9:30, so she had time to change.  They were going to the Uptown, so it was only a short way farther down Connecticut Ave.

In LOTR, Jackson stayed quite true to the  books, though he had to cut a lot.  And he did a terrific job of showing some things that I would have thought were impossible to make visual.  So I'm hoping there will be plenty of worthwhile stuff among the padding.  The Post reviewer complained that Jackson moved characters in from other books, specifically mentioning the Wizard Radagast.  Radagast does sort of appear in The Hobbit.  When Gandalf and Bilbo meet Beorn, Gandalf explains who he is by mentioning his cousin "Radagast, who lives near the Southern borders of Mirkwood".  Beorn knows Radagast, "not a bad fellow, as wizards go".  You wouldn't even notice him except he appears later in LOTR.  I guess we'll get this unnecessary bit of backstory.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 16, 2012, 04:24:52 PM
It's interesting to read all of the critic's reviews and then read the comments from people who have seen the movie. It seems that  most people who respond to the critics enjoyed it. For example see, http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/reviews/ios-film-review-the-hobbit-8420225.html
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on December 17, 2012, 08:07:51 AM
 I can sympathize with those remarks, MARCIE.  I don't pay too much attention to
professional critics.  It often seems to me they are more invested in demonstrating how
clever they are, and how superior to the common viewer.  They seem to prefer the more
pretentious and vulgar offerings.  There was one critic I would read, simply because
we knew that anything he panned we would like.  ;)
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 17, 2012, 08:28:27 AM
More contrasting opinions, Babi - Critic and reader reviews...

From the Washington Post's Ann Horaday:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/gog/movies/the-hobbit-an-unexpected-journey,1209344/critic-review.html


Reader reviews:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/gog/movies/the-hobbit-an-unexpected-journey,1209344/reader-reviews.html
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 17, 2012, 11:22:36 AM
   There was one critic I would read, simply because we knew that anything he panned we would like.  ;)

LOL, Babi!

Joan, Thanks for the links to that Washington Post review and the responses. It looks like there are as many reactions to the film as there are viewers.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 17, 2012, 11:42:14 AM
I know but I think that those of us who have just read the book will appreciate the details more than those who have never read it - or read it years ago.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 17, 2012, 08:59:13 PM
I definitely agree, Joan.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 24, 2012, 03:10:21 AM
I saw the movie, but now it's midnight.  More tomorrow.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: JoanP on December 24, 2012, 04:46:21 AM
Can't wait to hear about your impressions, Pat!  I saw last night that it is the #1 box office attraction of the  season.  
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 24, 2012, 02:31:56 PM
Yes, I'm eager to hear what you think, Pat....whenever you have time.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 29, 2012, 02:10:05 PM
I apologise for the delay, but here's my take on the movie, which I saw with my SIL.
 
The bottom line is that if you want it to be like the book, you will be disappointed, but there is a lot to like.

First, the technical stuff: SIL's professional opinion--the direction was superb, the movie should have been cut by 20 minutes or more to remove irrelevant bits, and the action was way over the top.  We saw it in 3D, which  I have been avoiding because my eyes don't always track together.  I was pleasantly surprised to find that it worked perfectly well for me.  However, I don't think it adds much to the viewing experience.

Martin Freeman, who plays Bilbo, doesn't look quite like we imagine him, too thin for one, but he's very good in the part.  Sir Ian McKellen  does his usual good job as Gandalf, and Andy Serkis' Gollum is great--similar to LOTR, but maybe a bit more vulnerable.  Thorin Oakenshield (Richard Armitage) is pictured as fiercely vengeful against the goblins, especially the one he thought he'd killed.  He isn't the way I'd pictured him, but he does a good job.  

The biggest flaw in the movie is the way they've beefed up the action.  Battle scenes are too long, too gigantic, and too improbable.  They've added some, too.  The movie opens with a prologue showing how the dwarves lost their home and treasure under the mountain, including a gigantic battle with goblins.  There is a long stretch involving the wizard Radagast (who is barely mentioned in the book) discovering evidence of the Necromancer and warning Gandalf, ending with an extra battle with wargs and a very improbable chase.  Maybe this is going to go somewhere in the next two movies, but it's pointless here.  The stone giants aren't just throwing rocks in the distance, they are the mountains, and our heroes are left standing on a small plateau just big enough to hold them.  And so on and on.  I shudder to think what the battle of the five armies is going to be like.

That said, when the movie sticks to the story there are many scenes which are fun, where you do get the feel of the book.  It's worth seeing for those, even if big fights aren't your cup of tea.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: BarbStAubrey on December 29, 2012, 02:36:07 PM
My grands took their Dad and his biggest grrr was they never even got to the mountain - that is when the boys knew the Hobbit will be made as a 3 part trilogy.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 29, 2012, 02:39:25 PM
One of my complaints about Jackson's treatment of LOTR was that he tended to blunt or trivialize the moral choices made by the characters, and he does that a bit here too.  For instance, it isn't clear why Frodo doesn't kill Gollum, but instead jumps over him to escape.  The riddle scene with Gollum is excellent, though.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 29, 2012, 02:49:11 PM
The movie ends right after the eagles have rescued them from the wargs (very dramatic--they are plucked out of the air as they are falling out of the burning tree, which is hanging over a cliff).  They are left standing on a hilltop, gazing at the mountain in the far distance.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 29, 2012, 03:11:09 PM
Thanks very much, Pat, for your detailed information about the film. It sounds like it's definitely worth seeing.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 29, 2012, 04:16:40 PM
Yes, worth seeing in spite of my complaints.  The photography is gorgeous too.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 30, 2012, 03:14:06 PM
Here's something for those who ended up having enough of hobbits and their ilk; I ran across it in the Dec. 9 New York Times:

The road goes ever on and on
And on and on, and on and on,
Hobbits and wizards and orcs and elves
Fill the books that strain the shelves.
One could be buried by tales as these
If not by the appendices.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on December 31, 2012, 08:49:21 AM
 Oh, I still love the little Hobbit.  I just figure it's time to ignore all the argument about the film.  My daughters saw it
yesterday and gave it a thumbs up.  I'll order it when it's available on Netflix. Maybe even wait until all three parts are
available in a set!  Save the long (?) wait in between.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 31, 2012, 09:33:56 AM
The other two are in post-production, but won't be released until Dec. '13 and July '14.  Grrr.

Yes, I still love the little hobbit too.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: marcie on December 31, 2012, 11:14:44 AM
LOL, that's a good verse, Pat, from the NY Times.
Title: Re: The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on January 01, 2013, 08:59:45 AM
Six months between the second and third film?!  Shucks, I could die before then,
and never see #3. (Never mind pointing out the same applies to #2.)  ::)