Hobbit, The by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

 November Book Club Online

The Hobbit turns 75 this fall, an occasion likely to cause many thousands of people to reflect with fondness on their childhood memories of the adventures of Bilbo Baggins. Though a much loved and widely respected children’s book, this work is too often overlooked by adults who relegate it to the nursery bookshelf.  "The Hobbit is a brilliantly constructed story unfolding themes that adult readers will still find compellingly relevant to the modern world: themes such as the nature of evil and the significance of human choice, or the corruptive power of greed and the ease with which good people can be drawn into destructive conflict." Corey Olsen is an Assistant Professor of English at Washington College in Maryland  Bilbo Baggins begins as a cautious and conservative hobbit, well respected and considered a pillar of the hobbit community. When he reluctantly sets out on a quest to recover the stolen treasure of a band of dwarves, he encounters dangers of all descriptions. His adventures, which figure prominently in a prophecy of the dwbarves, are like stepping stones on the inner journey Biblo must take to find his courage. Bilbo faces trials which again and again force him to look deep inside himself for the strength and resourcefulness he needs to complete the task expected of him.

Discussion Schedule

 

Ch 1 - 3	Nov 12-16
Ch 4 - 6	Nov 17-21	Now Discussing
Ch 7 - 8	Nov 22-26
Ch 9 - 12	Nov 27-Dec 1
Ch 13 - 15	Dec 2-5
Ch 16 - 18	Dec 6-9
Ch 19 and overall	Dec 10-13

Questions for Consideration

To notice for the whole book:

Tolkien incorporated many elements of myth, legend, and fairy tale.  What ones do you see?  Are they effective?

The story takes place in Middle Earth.  Is this our world?  How is it the same or different?

The Hobbit is a prelude to The Lord of the Rings.  If you are familiar with LOTR, notice which elements are present here, and what differences there are.

What different races of creatures do we meet?  What is each like?

Chapter 4.

1. Does the thought of setting out on an adventure appeal to you?   What different purposes motivate Gandalf, the dwarves, and Bilbo?
2. Apart from a child's entertainment, do you see other purposes as Tolkien develops his story?
3.  What features of human ingenuity does Tolkien attribute to Goblins?
4. Why do you think swords are approved and romanticised in our mythology?

Chapter 5.

1.  Ah, the key element, the mysterious ring that dominated "The Lord of the Ring" trilogy. One of it's powers we discover quickly;  do you find hints of other effects of the ring?
2.  Why does Bilbo agree to the riddle contest?   Is Tolkien ridiculing any aspect of society that you can think of?
3.  What change takes place in Bilbo regarding Gollum?  What does that say about Bilbo?

Chapter 6.
1.  Why does Bilbo choose to astonish his companions with a startling re-appearance?
  Can you relate to that?   What of his decision to keep the ring a secret...for a while?
2.  What new peril from the goblins do we learn of here?
3. What new species are introduced in this chapter?

 

Discussion Leaders:  PatH; Marcie, Babi , Barbara

[Frybabe]

Fictional swords weren't the only ones that had names. Wikipedia has a list of historical swords. Some you can click on to get the history of that sword.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_historical_swords

I suppose that good swords were a treasured item to have. The names can be symbolic, and they were sometimes used as a rallying point.could it be a bit of modesty that swords often take on the attributes, skill or luck, real or imagined, of the person wielding it. So the sword becomes Wolfslayer, for instance, not the person using it.

[BarbStAubrey]

OK a couple of posts while I was struggling writing this - it would be so easy to go back to my hobbit hole - problem, mine is filled with questions and questions and more questions.

OK my struggle - I missed that it was the dwarfs property - need to read it again but I do not think that is what crossed the mind of Bilbo when he decided to Burgle - that is what is confusing to me to this day - as a child I remember being confused - when is it OK to lie and then, later as an adult I questioned when is it OK to Kill rather than own these sinful outrageous act are as we are taught, wrong - It seems it is OK to protect Friends but then, if we are protecting friends that makes the commandment a crazy - because as a child I saw how it was more humane to protect others - even children's book in the early 40's were about kids involvement with protecting neighbors and class mates during WWII - and so, I have always struggled - is the commandment nuts or, are we not willing to sacrifice and then, the whole issue of being subjected to power that is often a power over -

I can see most folks are saying, will you just stop all this and just accept that you protect friends and family and be done with it - but then, is that divvying up sides which we have going on in the middle east today - taking sides seems to be more important than urging justice and compassion or protecting life... sorry, it is just confusing - never could figure it out which is the better behavior - so that I feel conflicted thinking a lot of the Bible is dribble, because I cannot imagine not protecting those I love.

Here we have Bilbo protecting those he is traveling with but does not seem to have any particular affection for - only that he should do a mischief to be acceptable?

I know - get on with it - but to me this only brings up the many confusions of what is real or how much do we act to save our own skins and the skins of those we take sides with and then call it virtuous behavior so that we are back to a tribe mentality. I think of the song in South Pacific where we have to be taught and this is an innocuous children's story that is taking it for granted that the hero will protect his newly formed tribe - does Bilbo know the wallet was stolen because of the Dragon - the story sounds to me like the wallet was simply easy grabs and he wrestled with the idea of going back to warn his friends but instead chose, "a bit of good quick burgling. A really first-class and legendary burglar would at this point have picked the troll's pockets - it is nearly always worth while, if you can manage it-, pinched the very mutton off the spits, purloined the beer, and walked of without their noticing him."

Almost, an exaggerated account of how he felt when the dwarfs ate him out of house and home and then he seems to be sarcastic, as Tolkien writes a bit of satire suggesting "Others more practical but with less professional pride would perhaps have stuck a dagger into each of them before they observed it. Then the night could have been spent cheerily." Which suggests to me that burglary is the lessor of handling someone who threatens you and your friends over, attempting to murder them.

I am looking at Bilbo as 'everyman' and I am seeing he is not a pure heroic figure - is that the lesson - among men there is no purity and to look for a "good" man is simply finding one who sticks up for you or acts the lessor of two evils. Is questionable behavior only OK when it benefits those who we like - are tribes the natural order of things and all this talk of world peace is a lot of hooey.

Now we even have glorified swords - ah and such is the life of men acting fearless - is it because Gandalf is not always around we must have swords for protection. OH I know but all this only says to me that maybe we make too much of wanting a hero - maybe we are all subject to this world which we are sharing with others who are not all in our tribe - maybe ambiguity is really what it is all about and to see the ambiguity is to make it real.

[JudeS]

More about swords.
The sword was developed in the Bronze age both in England and in China.It developed from the dagger which was a well known weapon since antiquity.
The development of the sword was made possible by the development of metals such as bromze alloys of steel and the development of heat treating elements.
When iron swords replaced bronze ones, the hilts which were developed to prevent injury,became highly personalized with intricate patterns indicating ownership.

Why did swords have names? Well they were an extension of the arm of the man who owned and used them. Freud  may have considered  a sword to be the extension of another part of the anatomy.

[BarbStAubrey]

The story of the crack in the cave and going down into the cave caverns - reminds me that there are many tales of trolls and goblins and dwarfs in Germany and Austria - the stories often include caves that are like the salt mines - Have you been to Bad Durrnberg - they have sleds that zip you down deep into the mine where the current digging is going on - The guide explains that without re-enforcement a tunnel will gradually close in on itself so that a salt miner can tell how long ago the particular area was mined by the amount of narrowing of the tunnel. These stories of salt mine caves are common in fairytales, folklore and myths and it appears Tolkien used the concept describing his cave.

[JoanK]

BARB: " Is questionable behavior only OK when it benefits those who we like - are tribes the natural order of things and all this talk of world peace is a lot of hooey."

This is just what bathers me about stories like "the hobbit" and myths like Wagners. One set of morals for our tribe: another for "the others". this has been the source of much of the misery in the world forever.

[PatH]

At least in The Hobbit the "others" are mostly pretty evil.

[JoanK]

The "others" are always pretty evil.

[JoanP]

And they seem to be getting worse as we move further away from Hobbitville.  What's the difference between the trolls and the goblins, though.  The trolls are man-eaters - are the goblins?  Are each of these different groups - "tribes" supposed to represent different peoples - does anyone know?

[BarbStAubrey]

JoanP I see this as a story basic to our values and since we really do not believe Goblins and Trolls exist any more than we really believe in a fairy as a reality they can only be symbols of exaggerated behavior.

I am beginning to see here another view of Bilbo - rather than the cute hero who is good to the core - maybe we could see him as flawed and realize him as a more realistic 'everyman' with the realization that even flawed characters can be given large tasks that it is not just the Christ or the mythological knight that is worthy of a personal adventure - but we also, with free will that allows we sometimes act in our own best interest which is not adding to peace and understanding - that we do make the 'other' seem, in their differences frightening, with questionable morals and bad behavior so that we can make room to feel our fear and act on our fears.

Seems to me in a story like this we could question and learn how we create the other in our mindseye and maybe, just maybe we will start to see how a different approach to living with major differences could be. I do not think we can nullify these differences or the folks who represent these differences and so swords to me, magic or otherwise, are simply an acceptance of our own need to protect ourselves and have an association with a tribe for protection that we will do anything to protect, even if it means labeling the 'other' as evil by pointing to their bad behavior as if it was unique.  

I am seeing the closing of the crack in the cave with Gandalf left on the other side like the banishment from paradise that is in Genesis. Now the tribes are pitted one against the other for their future - is that really what this life is all about and is taught in much that we read and in as JoanK says, the stories of opera.

[Frybabe]

Freud  may have considered  a sword to be the extension of another part of the anatomy.

Jude!  I suspect you are right.

[hats]

JoanP Thank you for all the information about swords. The one you showed is very handsome. I can't remember whether Don Quixote's sword had a name or not. Jude I had to laugh about what you wrote on Freud and a sword. Barb JoanK and PatHhave me putting on my thinking cap. Barbara has gone back to Genesis. I need to pay close attention. I can't really tell the difference between the trolls and goblins. The goblins seem more like pranksters?? No?? There isn't much written about the elves. Is there? Need to go reread. The way I'm hearing it from all of you The Hobbit is far more than a fantasy. I really liked the cave scene. Have been through three or four caves. I'm always fascinated with the many chambers and those dripping water shapes which  serendipitously form different shapes from the real world. Always wanted to visit Mammoth Cave.

[hats]

No, not pranksters. I think the goblins are more like terrorist groups of our day. They like war. They have prisoners. They eat people. Their tactics are "smart and secret." It's like Tolkien is describing guerrilla warfare. Odd, the goblins hate order and prosperity. I'm trying to think what type of government hates orderliness and prosperity. I'm thinking of anarchy. Are goblins anarchists? If so, don't we have to give a name to the trolls and elves???

[BarbStAubrey]

hmm I wonder hats - do we benefit by naming a group of behavior - I am thinking of what Frybabe told us about the naming of swords and wonder now if naming is a way to do the same thing - like Frybaby said, "The names can be symbolic, and they were sometimes used as a rallying point.could it be a bit of modesty that swords often take on the attributes, skill or luck, real or imagined, of the person wielding it. " - could that be saying when we give a group of behaviors a name we are saying "The names can be symbolic, and they were sometimes used as a rallying point."

I am getting my dwarfs, hobbits, trolls and Goblins easily mixed up but it seems to me when the dwarfs arrived un-expectedly, meeting at the home of Hobbit Bilbo, he offered them his hospitality and they each requested what made them comfortable which is not how we think a guest accepts a gift of hospitality. They do not even preface their request with 'if you have' or 'if it is not trouble' and so from that I take it that the dwarfs think of themselves and their common adventure by assuming that everyone nearby shares their view and will make them comfortable. Reminds me of reading The Brave Vessel and the expectation of those planted in the colony - it is easy to box ourselves in and assume everyone thinks and behaves as we do and therefore, will get on board to share all our viewpoints as well as protect the tribe.

Is that it - tribes are developed because we are boxed in and therefore assume everyone shares the same point of view - some boxing can come with group isolation and some because we are surrounded with our own tribe.

[hats]

Barb unable to repeat your thoughts, but I get it now. Also thoroughly understand Frybabe's thoughts about the swords. Frybabe thank you for answering the very questions I had about swords. For me, this isn't the easiest novel in the world. I have to stop and really think about the character traits of the trolls, eves and goblins. I think the goblins scare me the most. Again, maybe they shouldn't frighten me. Have to read about the groups again.

[PatH]

The goblins are certainly the worst creatures we've met so far.  They eat people, keeping a few back to use as slaves, who they then work to death.  They make weapons and instruments of torture, and probably invented "the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once"

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes Pat, nothing more unsettling than the idea of a slow death for ourselves or anyone - not that a quick, unintended death is much better but a slow death by torture - wow. When they say slaves you do not get the impression the Goblins are simply garnishing the work energy from the life of the slaves - we draw a mind-picture the Goblins are treating the slaves with little to no care.

Goblin behavior sure beats on the scale of 'bad', arriving somewhere unannounced, expecting individual hospitality and then not cleaning up afterward.

I wonder is the reading dependent upon figuring out who is worse than whom? I guess I am thinking that would be like saying, as long as you do not behave like Goblins than it is not so bad and excusable if you behave like Dwarfs or even Trolls. It is sure easier to forgive the behavior of wee people who are at worst ill-mannered and selfish.

I am still stuck with the idea that Tolkien is saying, ordinary non-perfect people can go on adventures that have ever-lasting meaning. It will be interesting to see the role the Goblins continue to play - are they the symbol for all that is bad in humans do you think. Well they are all mixed in together to work it out in these cave chambers - institutional power struggle is the hotbed into which they descended

[majic]

Somewhere, Tolkien wrote once, "You have to understand the good in things to, detect the real evil."

In many fantasy stories, good and evil are expected to enter into a physical, as well as, a psychological conflict. Tolkien uses this classical theme in "The Hobbit", as he develops the struggle between the two through out his work.

In the "LOTR" the reader will find many examples of sacrificial themes. I expect that they are also present in "The Hobbit", if we look for them.

In chapter 1, it was said, "This is the story of how a Baggins had an adventure, and found himself doing and saying things altogether unexpected. He may have lost the neighbors' respect, but he gained--well, you will see whether he gained anything in the end"

Bilbo is a small creature, being a Hobbit, who makes a huge difference, before the end of the tale, not only in his life but also in "the Wide World", as Tolkien calls it in one of his other works, "Farmer Giles". Bilbo, also, makes a huge impact in literature as well.

In response to the ideas of predestination, Tolkien writes:
"You don't really suppose, do you, that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck, just for your sole benifit? You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!".

Later, Thorin’s dying words to Bilbo are, “There is more in you of good than you know…If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.”
Does this lead us to believe good will win out over evil?

[Bookjunky]

The sword discussion interested me. Yes, swords were an extension of the persons arm. Not every sword has/had a name just the best and finest swords. These swords took great craft and a long time to make. The were individually hand made by an artisan. When I think of Sting, Bilbo's small sword I remember the times it saved him and later Frodo with its special property.

May I also add that before I read Tolkien for the first time I had not been introduced to great fantasy. This book and The Lord of the Rings had an impact on my reading habits and opened up a new genre of fiction to me.

[PatH]

These swords took great craft and a long time to make. The were individually hand made by an artisan.

Yes, and sword-making techniques were a matter of art and arcane knowledge; they didn't know the science behind it.  If you knew better ways of smelting to get stronger metal, the best mixes of metals to use, the most effective ways of cooling and tempering the finished weapon, how to layer and fuse different metals, your sword would be stronger, less likely to break, more able to cut into armor.  Careful design could make a sword that handled better, could be used more effectively.

These differences could be a matter of life and death in battle.  It's no wonder they admired their swords and named them.

[hats]

Never knew so much about swords. When I read about a sword in another book, I will pay closer attention. Yes, now I have more appreciation for Fantasy fiction. I will think of Tolkien as the one who inspired my interest.
 

[Babi]

  Oh, thank you for that link, PAT.  I've been wanting to explore that topic and there
it is!  Mythical, magical swords are apparently found in the literature of most of the
world. It's much harder to imagine applying personality to the monstrous weapons used
nowadays.

  Surely Bilbo loved his home and was quite satisfied with his life. I think it is the
changes he is seeing in himself that keeps him going. He has discovered courage he didn't
know he had, abilities that surprise him, a growing confidence in himself. That's pretty
heady stuff.
  I don't see Gandalf as a god figure. He seems more to me a symbol of the element of magic
that can come to the rescue when needed. Whether wizards, or fairy godmothers, they are
found in so many children's stories.

  BARB, doesn't the commandment you are referring to say "Thou shalt not bear false witness."?
It might be helpful to reflect on what, exactly, that is saying. And of course one should
stand up for what is right, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to work out a way of
justice and compassion for both sides. Hmm,  I think I'll do a search/study on lying in
the Bible. (The Thompson Chain Reference is wonderful for that sort of thing.)

  Okay, pardon the digression, please. I don't think there is a great difference between
goblins and trolls, just that the trolls are bigger, and meaner, and even the goblins are
afraid of them. 
 I have seldom read a description of a character that aroused more distaste and aversion than
Gollum. I can't really think of one just now.  How remarkable, that Tolkien's talent gave us, in one
story, one of the most charming of all characters, Bilbo Baggins, and one of the nastiest, Gollum.

   Naturally reading about the riddle game reminded me of childhood riddles my brother and I
learned.  I tried to think of a really hard one to offer here,  but couldn't.  Much like the two
contestants in the game here.  But why did Bilbo agree to such a contest at all?  'If I lose, you
get to eat me'!!!?  And he, at least,  considered himself bound by it. Curious, I did some exploring and found this fascinating essay.  http://www.portifex.com/BSPages/Honor.htm  Is dueling still a problem in Tolken's time?  He seems to be saying that some ideas of 'honor' are pretty dumb.

  Oh, thank you for that link, PAT.  I've been wanting to explore that topic and there
it is!  Mythical, magical swords are apparently found in the literature of most of the
world. It's much harder to imagine applying personality to the monstrous weapons used
nowadays.

  Surely Bilbo loved his home and was quite satisfied with his life. I think it is the
changes he is seeing in himself that keeps him going. He has discovered courage he didn't
know he had, abilities that surprise him, a growing confidence in himself. That's pretty
heady stuff.
  I don't see Gandalf as a god figure. He seems more to me a symbol of the element of magic
that can come to the rescue when needed. Whether wizards, or fairy godmothers, they are
found in so many children's stories.

  BARB, doesn't the commandment you are referring to say "Thou shalt not bear false witness."? It might be helpful to reflect on what, exactly, that is saying. And of course one should stand up for what is right, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to work out a way of
justice and compassion for both sides. Hmm,  I think I'll do a search/study on lying in
the Bible. (The Thompson Chain Reference is wonderful for that sort of thing.)

  Okay, pardon the digression, please. I don't think there is a great difference between
goblins and trolls, just that the trolls are bigger, and meaner, and even the goblins are
afraid of them. 
 I have seldom read a description of a character that aroused more distaste and aversion than
Gollum. I can't really think of one just now.  How remarkable, that Tolkien's talent gave us, in one story, one of the most charming of all characters, Bilbo Baggins, and one of the nastiest, Gollum.

   Naturally reading about the riddle game reminded me of childhood riddles my brother and I
learned.  I tried to think of a really hard one to offer here,  but couldn't.  Much like the two
contestants in the game here.  But why did Bilbo agree to such a contest at all?  'If I lose, you
get to eat me'!!!?  And he, at least,  considered himself bound by it. Curious, I did some exploring and found this fascinating essay.  http://www.portifex.com/BSPages/Honor.htm  Is dueling still a problem in Tolken's time?  He seems to be saying that some ideas of 'honor' are pretty dumb.

 


 

[PatH]

It's not my link, it's Frybabe's.

[marcie]

Babi, re your question why Bilbo agreed to the riddle game with Gollum despite the consequences of losing... it seems to me that he felt he had no choice. They had already started with one riddle as Gollum proposed that they "chats" a bit (as each was trying to find out more about the other). Then when Gollum commanded that they have a competition with consequences (Bilbo being eaten or Gollum showing him the way out), Bilbo didn't "dare to disagree." He already knew that he was lost and quite alone and could never find his way out without Gollum's help and he didn't know if Gollum was "fierce or hungry or a friend of the goblins."

It seems that Bilbo often is finding himself in a tight situation because he is either fearful to make a different move or, in the case of his going on the adventure in the first place, too "Tookishly" stubborn to show weakness to the dwarves.

I agree that the character of Gollum is a great invention. It's so imaginative to have  him lisping his "s's" and talking to himself as "my precious."

[JoanP]

Was he lisping, Marcie...or was it more like hissing?  I counted four "s'es" in "precioussss" at one time.

But even if he was hissing,  I didn't find  Gollum as frightening as the others...although he did have an appetite for fish...and meat!  Even ate Goblins.  He was described as being very small - and alone.  Did he have a family?  Or friends?  He gave the impression of being lonely - even before Tolkien told us that he was.  I would think that children pick up on this.  

Spends his time talking to himself.  Did he really just want company? A playmate?  That seems to account for the riddle games.  I'm still puzzling over the "daisy" riddle...the one blue eye, the one green...did you understand it?   And I never would have guessed the "no legs lay on one leg...the fish on the little table one...  Gollum would have gobbled me up in no time.

The two of them seem to have had more in common than differences.  Gollum played the riddle game, needing the time to find out if Baggins was alone, more about his sword, whether he was good to eat.  And Bilbo needed to find out if there were more creatures like him, if he was hungry...and the way out.  So they played on.

I really enjoyed the last riddle...though I can see Gollum's point.  Bilbo's question wasn't really a true riddle, was it?  What did he have in his pocket?  Only three guesses.  When Gollum discovered his birthday present ring was missing, and began to suspect that  Baggins had found it and started chasing him asking what was in his pocket, the riddle was complete,  as Baggins kept answering with the right answer..."what have you lost?"  No wonder Gollum went ballistic and wanted to catch him - probably not to eat him just yet, but to get his lost ring from Baggins' pocket.  But the hobbit doesn't know this. That was really entertaining!

[majic]

I agree with JoanP comments in reference to Bilbo and Gollum: "The two of them seem to have had more in common than differences."

This is undoubtedly true, because Gollum was once a Hobbit whose personality has deteriorated due to the hold that the ring now has on him. At one time, Gollum must have had many more characteristics similar to Bilbo's. I'd guess even then their characteristics must have been striking different based on their family backgrounds.

"The Took family side" having its influence over Bilbo's "Baggins family side" is mentioned frequently which points out the differences even within Bilbo himself.

[PatH]

Indeed, majic, Bilbo and Gollum are somewhat akin, their similar backgrounds shown by their knowing the same riddles.  And though he is treacherous and sneaky, he is also pitiful.  Bilbo feels this when he is trying to get past him at the cave mouth.  He must fight Gollum to escape, but sees it wouldn't be fair:

"A sudden understanding, a pity mixed with horror, welled up in Bilbo's heart: a glimpse of endless unmarked days without light or hope of betterment, hard stone, cold fish, sneaking and whispering."

He can't do it, and with new-found strength leaps over Gollum instead.

We see more of this  in LOTR, where Gollum is mostly evil, but pitiable too.

I once saw a vanity license plate "GOLLUM".  I've always wondered about it.

[PatH]

JoanP, I'm hopeless at riddles but my book explains the Daisy riddle.  The eye in the blue face is the sun in the sky, the eye in the green face is the daisy in the grass.  It also (my book says) a play on the Anglo-Saxon origin of the word daisy, which comes from "day's eye".  Tolkien couldn't always stop being a linguist.

Clever of you to catch the kinship of Bilbo and Gollum.

[marcie]

JoanP, yes I think that Gollum was hissing "s's" but I couldn't think of the word to describe it :-)

Even though he wants to eat Bilbo, I too feel sorry for him. He's an interesting character. I don't think there is anything sympathetic about the trolls and goblins. Maybe it's partly because they don't really engage in conversation with anyone. They make threats, attack the dwarves and Bilbo and quarrel among themselves.

Pat, I couldn't figure out the riddles either...even the "easy" ones. It reminds me a bit of the Star Trek Next Generation episode "Darmok" when the Enterprise crew meet an alien crew whose society talks in metaphors, which rely on a shared history and experience. You can watch a few minutes of the alien language at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-wzr74d7TI

[Frybabe]

Marcie, that is my very favorite Star Trek episode. Captain Picard was telling the story of Gilgamesh. I guess even alien societies have epic myths that share common ground.

[marcie]

My favorite too, Frybabe. Captain Picard at his "Renaissance Man" best. Star Trek has much in common with epics such as The Hobbit/Lord of the Rings.

[BarbStAubrey]

With Gollum and Bilbo both hobbits I had a flash as if symbolically they were two sides of a coin - that within us there lies a Gollum - that part of us that is kept in the dark for one reason or another- the part of us that sometimes looses hope, becomes hard and if not sneaking around we are low, sometimes even depressed so that it takes a mighty leap of the side of us that is moving forward in this life to move past our Gollum.

The comment by Gandalf about not bringing anything that are of no use reminds me of the popular saying a few years ago that - God makes no junk. And oh the webs we weave in order to be thought of with high esteem.

And yet, he is right - how can they accept Gandalf just turning up in the cave chamber with no explanation - but then all is logically explained.

I love the description of toes bruised and bent, not just bruised but, saying bent makes you smile and then a stomach that wags like an empty sack, perfect, more smiling...

[majic]

That's exactly the way I see it, BarbStAubrey. Bilbo and Gollum mirror the good and bad in us. Much of this is all about the struggles between good and evil.
The possession of the ring has serious effects on its owner. Hasn't it already started to change Bilbo? Why didn't he tell his friends how he got away, why did he keep the ring a secret?

[hats]

Gollee, who knew The Hobbit would speak to our inner selves? I knew. When The Senior Bookies get a hold of a book they draw every last nugget of gold or false gold from its pages. I haven't gotten to the part about the ring. Wasn't their a worm named Smaug or something like that in these pages?? He or it creeped me out too. Trying to catch up. I've met Gollum I'm not good guessing rhymes. So Bilbo and Gollum's riddle contest just amazed me. Never could get an answer right for a riddle.
With the Goblins and Gollum and the dragon I think Tokien wanted to creep the children out a little bit. Make them want to run in a closet and shiver and shake. I think all children like creepy stories especially when their life is peaceful and secure. I can't remember my first spooky story or novel. When I became a teen, I went to see House of Ushers by Poe. It scared the daylights out of me. The Secret Garden and My Bed is a Counterpane by Robert Louis Stevenson did make me, as a child, very frightened of the idea that children could become sick. I didn't want to be the little boy in the bed with all his soldier men around him.

[BarbStAubrey]

Interesting - I wanted to get a better understanding of Gollum since several of us think he represents a part of each of us - the good bad concerned me because we would not want to own what is bad and so we may be isolating further a part of ourselves because we are mis-understanding and Bilbo does us a favor by pointing out the virtues so to speak of Gollum.

Gollum lives on an island in the middle of an underground lake - looking up the Traditional Symbolism in the Encyclopaedia by J.C.Cooper:

A Lake is the feminine principle often the dwelling place of magical feminine powers, (The Lady of the Lake) , the collections of receptive wisdom.

An Island is a place of isolation and loneliness but also a place of safety and refuge from the sea of chaos. There is more about enchanted Isles however I do not think Gollum's Island is especially enchanted - the location is a fantasy but not enchanted.

Wow, really interesting, get this - A Cave is the symbol of the universe, the world center; the heart; the place of union of the Self and the ego; the meeting place of the divine and the human. All dying gods and saviors are born in caves; inner esoteric knowledge; hidden knowledge, a place of initiation. The cave is also the feminine principle, the womb of Mother Earth, a place of burial and rebirth, of mystery, increase and renewal, from which man emerges and to which he returns at death in the stone sepulcher.

The Cave is closely related to the Heart as a spiritual and initiatory center of both the macrocosm and microcosm - where the mountain is the visible and external masculine principle the cave within the mountain is the feminine, hidden and closed; being part of the mountain the cave shares the axial symbolism. Initiation ceremonies most often took place in a cave symbolic of the underworld and the sepulcher where death took place prior to rebirth and illumination.

As a place of initiation it is a secret place, the entrance is hidden from the profane by a labyrinth or dangerous passage, guarded by some monster or supernatural persons, and entry could only be gained by overcoming the opposing force. Passing through the cave represents a change of state, achieved by overcoming dangerous powers. The cave is often the place of the sacred marriage between heaven and earth, body and soul, king and queen, the place of hero's games.

[Babi]

 I'm still staring, wondering how a full quote of that post got reprinted in the
same post! 

 I had to grin at the sly insert of "The wizard, to tell the truth, never minded explaining his cleverness more than once..."

    Ah, yes, MARCIE. I had forgotten that bit about needing Gollum to show him the
way out. Certainly a chance is better than no chance.  At the same time, I find
myself doubting very much that Gollum would have let Bilbo out without a search,
no matter what he promised. In this case, Bilbo's sense of honor places him at a disadvantage.
 
 You may be right, JOANP. Gollum was small, but then Bilbo wasn't very big either.
I have the impression that Gollum was quite strong, but I'm not sure just where I
got that idea. Perhaps from the heavy stones he hauled about to make his 'nest'.

 I could understand Bilbo's feelings of pity for Gollum, and even sympathize with
them. But I believe they say more about the character of Bilbo than that of Gollum.

BARB, that was a brilliant 'flash'.  Bilbo and Gollum as symbolically two sides of
a coin. I'm going to keep that thought with me as we proceed. I'm confidant it
will provide more insights into what the author is saying.

 It's hard to guess what will alarm a child. It's hard to get too scared when you
are curled up safely in bed with an adult reading with you. I guess each generation
is more sophisticated at an earlier age. Things I thought would alarm a child did
not cause my own a minute's worry.

[JudeS]

All this talk of Gollum reminded me of the original GOLEM. If he is unknown to you let me introduce you to him.

In Jewish folklore the Golem is an anthropomorphic creature created from inanimate matter.
The word golem appears first in the Bible in Psalms 139.6 as "GOLMI" or My unshaped form. Later religous books (the Mishnah) used Golem as a term for an uncultured person.

The word is used today in Hebrew for a brainless lunk. In Yiddish it became Goylem, meaning clumsy or slow.
The main disability of the Golem is its inability to speak.
As a supernatural figure The Golem was first mentioned in 16th century Prague. The story was about using him to prevent anti-semitic attacks.
in the 19th century five different books explored the Golem legend. This legend  greatly influenced the images of Frankenstein, the Sorcerers Apprentice and a figure in R.U.R, a play by Karl Capek in which the word Robot was used for the first time.
The Golem always obeys its master and so was the background for The Daleks in the early Dr Who series.(Remember "I obey!")

Today in Japanese video games the Golem has many descendents, among them Golett and Goluck.

[BarbStAubrey]

I know your post Jude was not meant to be funny but rather giving us another bit of historical myth and tradition that helps us fill in more of the story but Oh Oh OH I could not stop laughing "a brainless lunk" 

[Frybabe]

That is pretty neat, Jude. I had no idea.

[PatH]

I wonder if Tolkien had golems in mind?  He seems more focussed on the northern myths.