Hobbit, The by J.R.R. Tolkien Book & Film ~ November/December Book Club Online

[PatH]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

  November Book Club Online

The Hobbit turns 75 this fall, an occasion likely to cause many thousands of people to reflect with fondness on their childhood memories of the adventures of Bilbo Baggins. Though a much loved and widely respected children’s book, this work is too often overlooked by adults who relegate it to the nursery bookshelf.  "The Hobbit is a brilliantly constructed story unfolding themes that adult readers will still find compellingly relevant to the modern world: themes such as the nature of evil and the significance of human choice, or the corruptive power of greed and the ease with which good people can be drawn into destructive conflict." Corey Olsen is an Assistant Professor of English at Washington College in Maryland  Bilbo Baggins begins as a cautious and conservative hobbit, well respected and considered a pillar of the hobbit community. When he reluctantly sets out on a quest to recover the stolen treasure of a band of dwarves, he encounters dangers of all descriptions. His adventures, which figure prominently in a prophecy of the dwbarves, are like stepping stones on the inner journey Biblo must take to find his courage. Bilbo faces trials which again and again force him to look deep inside himself for the strength and resourcefulness he needs to complete the task expected of him.

Discussion Schedule

Ch 1 - 3	Nov 12-16
Ch 4 - 6	Nov 17-21
Ch 7 - 8	Nov 22-26
Ch 9 - 12	Nov 27-Dec 1
Ch 13 - 15	Dec 2-5	Now Discussing
Ch 16 - 18	Dec 6-9
Ch 19 and overall	Dec 10-13

Questions for Consideration

To notice for the whole book:

Tolkien incorporated many elements of myth, legend, and fairy tale.  What ones do you see?  Are they effective?

The story takes place in Middle Earth.  Is this our world?  How is it the same or different?

The Hobbit is a prelude to The Lord of the Rings.  If you are familiar with LOTR, notice which elements are present here, and what differences there are.

What different races of creatures do we meet?  What is each like?

Chapter 13.

1. The dwarves are despairing, but Bilbo feels "a strange lightening of the heart".  What do you think that means?  What is the psychology at work in this reaction?

 2. What is your opinion of Thorin throwing the responsibility of leadership in Bilbo's lap?

3. Why does Bilbo take the Arkenstone?  Why doesn't he tell anyone?

4. What is the effect of gold and jewels on the heart of a dwarf?


Chapter 14.

1. What new heroic leader now emerges?  What is your first impression of him?

2. Do you see another 'legendary' weapon making its appearance?

3. Why can Bard understand the thrush?
 
4. How appropriate is the attack on the town for a child's book? Does Tolkien manage to convey the drama without too much trauma?

5. What flaws does the town's 'Master' reveal? How does he manage to keep his position?


Chapter 15.

1. Dwarves, men and elves each want the treasure.  What reason does each give?  Are the claims just?

2. What hopeful outcome does the raven express from the confrontation of dwarves and men? What advice to Thorin does he see as critical to that outcome?

3. What is the situation between Thorin and his followers?



 

Discussion Leaders:  PatH; Marcie, Babi , Barbara

[marcie]

Wow, what a lot of great ideas and comments.

Babi, I agree with  your assessment of the Master, Babi. He sure seems like a politician (not in any good sense). Thanks for the link to the lore about ravens and crows. It's interesting that "In some cases these black-feathered birds are considered an omen of bad tidings, but in others they may represent a message from the Divine."

JoanP,  the thrush must have some role to play but I guess we have to wait to find out. Bird symbolism is interesting.  As you say, Bilbo was the only one with the perserverance to unlock the door. Elrond had shown them some hidden symbols on Thorin's map of the Lonely Mountain. The symbols are only visible at the right phase of the moon. They say that the tiny, secret side door into the Lonely Mountain will only open on Durin's Day, the last day of autumn. It seems that Bilbo has spent the day thinking about it and finally understands the clues in Thorin's map. On Durin's Day, using the key from Thorin's grandfather, Bilbo is able to open the door. LOL re the heavy, slow Bombur. Is he part of the comic relief? and/or part of the suspense...will all the group be able to make it home alive, given their weakest/slowest members?

Joan, that's a good question about effort and/or luck. Some people do not believe in luck. Does it seem to play a big role in this story?

Thanks for looking up the proverb  "third time pays for all." Did Bilbo use it for the literal third time he saved the dwarves? What were the previous two events?

Great, Pat. Thanks for those two drawings of the Lonely Mountain. It helps to see those pictures.

[PatH]

I’m bringing this up now because it may take time to get the book.  When we started this discussion, we mentioned the possibility of afterward reading Pat Murphy’s There and Back Again.  This is a light-hearted Space Opera which closely follows the plot of The Hobbit, only with spaceships and the whole galaxy to journey in.  It’s good sci-fi even if you haven’t read the Tolkien, but if you have, it’s really fun to see how clever she is.  If anyone’s interested, we could talk about it a bit—not a formal discussion, just a few days chat.

Chat or not, it’s fun to read.  It’s out of print, but some libraries have it (mine does) and Amazon has  a few cheap used copies

Amazon

and alibris has lots

alibris

That strange character on the cover is Gandalf.

[Lorac625]

I can't help but admit that one of my favorite,most frquently employed and useful quotes from The Hobbit is poor Bilbo's "Thag you very buch". (Sneeze!). Perhaps this is just because I have allergies and sinus problems,who knows?

[PatH]

I'm with you there, Lorac, I have allergies too.

[Lorac625]

I very much enjoy Tolkien's (albeit rather pointed) foreshadowing,such as "Luckily for him(Bombur) that (he was too heavy for the ropes) was not true,as you shall see."Ch.XI. It's almost gentle sarcasm- Here!  Pay attention,dunderhead!  Definitely irony,at least.  i wonder if he lived in Middle-Earth more than this one?

Tolkien had such an effect on so many,but one author I found simply because he assisted Christopher Tolkien with publishing The Silmarillion is  Guy Gavriel Kay.   Try him if you haven't.  Such lyrical prose!

[PatH]

Kay has been recommended to me before.  Which one would you suggest for a start?

[Frybabe]

I read Kay's Ysabel. I had intended to read more of his books, but forgot about him. Thanks for the reminder.

[marcie]

Lorac, I don't have allergies but I too enjoyed Bilbo's "Thag you very buch". (Sneeze!) It makes him so endearing. I think I will enjoy the film but I rather want Bilbo to remain a "creature" in my mind rather than have an image of a human being. I know he looks like a human in the drawings too but I think of him as sort of rabbit like.

I'm glad you brought up the foreshadowing. [Luckily for him(Bombur) that (he was too heavy for the ropes) was not true, as you shall see.] I like those instances too. I think there have been one or two before that one.

[Babi]

 The thrush is a different species than the crows and ravens...and without the
more sinister mythology. Here, he seems to be another 'friendly messenger'.
Doesn't the primary role of birds in fantasy seem to be either predators or
messengers?
  I had the same reaction to Bombur as MARCIE, ie.'comic relief' character. He
seems to fit the role. And the same feeling re. Bilbo. I don't want him to look
like a human child. (Did no one consider casting a real midget in this role? We
have some excellent actors among the 'little people'.)

 Gandalf? Really, PAT? It looked to me like a red-haired woman!

[Babi]

 Good grief!  Are we supposed to be finishing with Ch. 12 today?  It's got to be the longest
chapter in the book and I've still got so many notes from this one chapter. Forgive me if
I take up too much time.
 
   At last they have found the 'back door' to the dragon's lair.  And would you listen to Thorin!  He praises 'Mr. Baggins' for his courage, resourcefulness and "good luck far exceeding the usual allowance".    Well,  I concede there has been extraordinary good luck.  But then Thorin goes on to say "Now is the time for him to perform the service for which he was included in our Company; now is the time for him to earn his reward."
  I was glad to see Bilbo's reaction was the same as mine.  'Impatient'  is what Tolkien called it.  I thought it outrageous.  As 'Mr. Baggins' says,  he had gotten them out of two messes already, which were hardly in the original bargain, so that he had already earned some reward.  But  he still intends to go on with his original purpose.  He is a far different person that the scatter-wit and timid hobbit who started out.

    Tolkien finds here another excellent opportunity to make an important point with his young readers. "There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don't expect too much."
  I think this understanding would come in most useful as the kids grow up and begin dealing with "men of the world"  big business types.

 Okay, I'll end with that.

[PatH]

I think of Bilbo as looking pretty human, not like a child, but short and plump.  You can do that with a normal sized actor by camera tricks.

Yes, Babi, Gandalf is a red-haired woman with tattoos, and that isn't an eyepatch, it's an enhanced sensor.  But she still is a lot like Gandalf.  The dwarves are female too.  Bilbo is still male.

Chapter 12 is long and full of stuff, and it can spill into tomorrow if we aren't through talking about it.

Babi, I'm glad you quoted that bit about dwarves--decent enough people if you don't expect too much.  I like that a lot too.

[PatH]

What did Bilbo mean when he said "third time pays for all"?

I've a note in the annotated copy -

"Third time pays for all" is a medieval proverb, a notable use of which occurs in Sir Gawain and the Green knight."

The annotation says are three appearances of the proverb in The Lord of the Rings" and quotes a letter from Tolkein dated July 31, 1964 on the usage:

"It is an old alliterative saying using the word "time" ...this third occasion is the best time - the time for special effort and/or luck.  It is used when a third occurrence may surpass the others and finally prove a man's worth, or a thing's."

When reading Tolkien's words, "the time for special effort and/or luck" I thought again about Bilbo's success - was it due to his special effort - or luck?

This is important.  Bilbo does go down the passage to the dragon's lair.  What happens when he does so?  He reaches a third turning point in his journey.  (the first two: 1:his reaction to being left alone in the goblin cave, dealing with Gollum, and finding pity and strength to escape without killing Gollum, and 2: managing to kill the spider all by himself, and then naming his sword, showing that at least unconsciously he accepts that he is part of the heroic tradition).

So: “It was at this point that Bilbo stopped.  Going on from there was the bravest thing he ever did.  The tremendous things that happened afterwards were as nothing compared to it.  He fought the real battle in the tunnel alone, before he ever saw the vast danger that lay in wait.”

Bilbo has jumped another step in bravery and heroism, and is definitely proving his worth.

Luck is an important theme too, better dealt with later.

[BarbStAubrey]

I have been struggling with the under belly of the story ever since the naming of the sword - Oh I can see how Bilbo, in order to be accepted embarked on activities admired by the Dwarfs and how he seemed to be introspective at the water's edge not participating while Thorin was claiming his ancient rights. It appears that Bilbo takes on searching out the Dragon and the next phase of waging war with the Dragon as his own 'Man' who is only struggling with his spirit, with his Tuck side versus his Baggins side.

However, where I am really personally confused is all this about the sword that seems to be agreeing with the Christian traditional concept of a 'Just War' - Bilbo and his knife/sword Sting reminds me of the Story of Roland where Bishops and priests fight along side soldiers and knights, each wielding their named swords - the Story of Roland highlights the tradition that the Christian God punishes the evil forces in the world. As a result, the sword is thought as an agent of God's will, deemed to punish evil. This tradition is alive and well in many of the romantic stories of knights slaying dragons or saving the life and the virtues of young women. Again, the knight and his sword an agent of Good over Evil.

I have a problem with this view of God who punishes evil, as if the Christian God is some Superman beyond all Supermen but still in the image of a man - how demeaning in my estimation - but since no one has ever seen God we can all have our imaginative concept. But more, who is to judge what is evil enough to warrant the use of arms - this Nation does it as if we are the superior judge of ethical behavior - we have so many quotes that to me represent a more enlightened approach to elevating children's future behavior and advancing a world view of issues having many sides and that the power of arms is not how the winner is chosen.

We have sayings like - 'One man's virtue is another man's sin' - 'One Man's Vices are Another Man's Virtues' - The realization that 'evil can infect people who seem upright', as it did Bilbo for awhile - which can lead to,  'one man's sin often becomes the occasion of another man's greater sin' - these well known quotes highlight for us the various ethical values of cultures around the world - which some would say, Bilbo is having a learning lesson while others would see his behavior as following the evil exemplified by the code of the dwarfs.

That is opening another can of worms... The dwarfs are described as calculating with ideas about the value of money; they are tricky and  treacherous. Sounds like how we define a group of people who live their ethical lives differently than ourselves.

I guess it is the idea of a spiritual quest that is built on the successful handling of a weapon - no different than, Billy the Kid - Judge Roy Bean - Kit Carson - who was just? - Who represented the evil force of a Dragon? Had this story been written as a myth rather than as a story for children told in the twentieth century I would not feel so conflicted or maybe, we have come very far in just the last 50 years because we sure did not think WWII was unjust. We only really started to question the concept of a 'Just War' and wielding the power of our so called Judeo/Christian values during the Viet Nam experience. Certainly after Gandhi.

This post may not be pushing us on through Bilbo's adventure but my take on reading for discussion any book is, why read much less discuss if it does not stir interior questions. We can read fluff that entertains without devoting a month to the pearls from an author's pen.

[marcie]

As Pat says, we can see if we finish up Chapter 12 today or continue with this long chapter tomorrow. Thanks, Pat, for bringing up the importance again of Bilbo's heroic acts. He's someone who has stayed near home all his life and has been content with his existence... eating, sleeping, entertaining. However, he does have "Took" ancestry and he has skills that he has practiced such as throwing stones/darts, etc. accurately. Even though he is afraid, he rises to the challenges of this adventure.

LOL, Babi, Tolkien's descriptions often are not overly flattering. I laughed at his dwarf caveat ..."if you don't expect too much."

Barbara, you raise some thought-provoking points. You say "Had this story been written as a myth rather than as a story for children told in the twentieth century..." I do see The Hobbit as a myth. Everything is not to be taken literally. The "hobbit" itself is an imaginary creature. There's a short, interesting article on history of The Hobbit book at http://www.tolkien-online.com/hobbit.html

[BarbStAubrey]

Hmm Marcie maybe I am expecting too much from Tolkien - although, he is considered such an icon of twentieth century storytelling that underscores Christian religious views.

[marcie]

I added the link to the article in my post, Barbara. It might respond to your question about how seriously to take the book when it says:

"Those of Tolkien’s close friends who were aware of the manuscript, including C.S. Lewis, encouraged Tolkien to submit it to a publisher, but Tolkien refused.

Why? Conjecture based on later comments of Tolkien’s was that he feared it would not be taken seriously. Tolkien understood his standing as a scholar, and perhaps believed that The Hobbit would not be seen as a useful application of his scholarly talents.

Serious scholars, after all, did not write “children’s” tales.

The Hobbit, of course, is both a “children’s tale” and something more. Tolkien drew deeply on his knowledge of ancient mythology, primarily northern (Norse) mythology, to flesh out the characters and plot. "

Perhaps the idea that The Hobbit is a myth makes it even more (or at least equally) "serious" and important a work as a fact-based story.

[BarbStAubrey]

Marcie thanks for the link - after your post and reading the link I think I am not so much at odds with Tolkien but more at odds understanding and accepting the concept of a 'Just War.' That is a question of theology not of Tolkien and his story the Hobbit... because Tolkien's story is as engrossing a read as The Song of Roland was when I read it many years ago.

[marcie]

Thanks, Barbara. It's wonderful to read and discuss books that bring to mind so many different ideas and issues.

[Babi]

 Never heard those sayings, BARB. And I really wonder if Tolkien at all intended his little
tale do be seen as a Christian allegory.  While it is true we can find many small lessons
for young people here, I cannot at all see it as a "spiritual quest" built on a weapon.
I appreciate MARCIE's point that the "Hobbit" is tale that draws primarily on ancient
and northern mythology.

 Now this I cannot relate to at all.   Bilbo gets away from his first sighting of the dragon with a single two-handled cup.  The dragon goes into a rage that is described as "only seen when rich folk that have more than they can enjoy suddenly lose something that they have long had but never before used of wanted."   I cannot imagine flying into a rage over that.   Annoyance, yes! Petulance, perhaps.  But rage?   I know there are personalities whose sense of security lies in having everyone terrified of them,  and they would be in a rage if someone showed the disrespect of daring to rob them. Is that what this is?
 
  Oh, good!  Thorin has redeemed himself in my eyes.  Even though they are in imminent danger,  he refuses to abandon the two dwarves left to guard the supplies.  He will not permit anyone to run for  cover until the two dwarves, and what supplies they can grab,  are towed up to safety.  He is a dwarf of courage and integrity, at least.  Can he surmount the dwarfs great
weakness?

[PatH]

I agree, Babi; this book is primarily myth and not religion.  Tolkien's deeply religious outlook only appears as a kind of subtext--the underlying attitude and moral outlook.

[JoanP]

 I think that's what enraged the dragon, Babi - knowing that someone dared to set foot his sanctuary - not so much as the little cup.  Though he wants that cup...
And I thought as you did that Thorin redeemed himself - showed his courage and wondered if he would now take over more of a  leadership position.  He is at a loss though as to what to do next.  Would he have turned back had Bilbo not come up with the idea of going in to see what the dragon is doing?

Loved their conversation - in which the dragon revealed his "overwhelming" personality.  He became more human, didn't he?  Both Bilbo and Smaug revealed insecurities in this conversation.  Smaug had a weakness for flattery, revealing his exposed underside - the left side of his chest as he shows off his diamond doublet to Bilbo.  Bilbo's insecurity take root...he begins to question his leader and fellow dwarves.  How on earth would they transport his share back to his hobbit hole if they are successful?  Do they have any intention of sharing with him?  Or worse, have they given any thought at all about planning to return with the haul? 

As they talk about the treasure within, I'm wondering what Bilbo would do with spears and shields, huge goblets, heavy emerald necklaces.  Was there anything mentioned that Bilbo might want to take with him?  It all seems  so "inappropriate" for Bag's End  (I forget what his home is called.)  My bet is that he won't take anything.  I wonder - how big is the Arkenstone?  What IS the Arkenstone?  Just caught up and ready to start Chapter XIII to find out more.

ps Marcie - thank you so much for those links!  I love reading about Tolkien's intentions with this magnificent tale!

[marcie]

Loved their conversation - in which the dragon revealed his "overwhelming" personality.  He became more human, didn't he?  Both Bilbo and Smaug revealed insecurities in this conversation.  Smaug had a weakness for flattery, revealing his exposed underside - the left side of his chest as he shows off his diamond doublet to Bilbo.  Bilbo's insecurity take root...he begins to question his leader and fellow dwarves.  How on earth would they transport his share back to his hobbit hole if they are successful?  Do they have any intention of sharing with him?  Or worse, have they given any thought at all about planning to return with the haul?  

As they talk about the treasure within, I'm wondering what Bilbo would do with spears and shields, huge goblets, heavy emerald necklaces.  Was there anything mentioned that Bilbo might want to take with him?  It all seems  so "inappropriate" for Bag's End  (I forget what his home is called.)  My bet is that he won't take anything.  I wonder - how big is the Arkenstone?  What IS the Arkenstone?  Just caught up and ready to start Chapter XIII to find out more.

Those are great points, Joan. Yes, Bilbo was trying to flatter Smaug to distract him and was able to find his weakness. Smaug seems like he knows how to undermine Bilbo too. He's skillful at making Bilbo question the dwarves.

I think (but can't remember clearly) that the Arkenstone was mentioned at the beginning of their quest as the pinacle of the dwarves treasure for which they were going to kill the dragon.

I found this info about it:
"The Arkenstone also known as the "Heart of the Mountain" of Thrain was a wondrous gem sought by Thorin Oakenshield in J. R. R. Tolkien's The Hobbit. It was discovered beneath the Lonely Mountain (Erebor) by Thorin's ancestor Thrain and shaped by the Dwarves. The Arkenstone became the family heirloom of Durin's folk, but was lost when the dragon Smaug captured the mountain from the Dwarves. "

There are some images of it at http://www.google.com/search?q=Arkenstone&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Eha&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=OKS7UN32E8bjiwLG64DQCA&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1375&bih=878&sei=O6S7ULWkAeqligLr4YFA

[PatH]

My book says that the name Arkenstone comes from the Anglo-Saxon eorclanstan, "precious stone", which is used in Beowulf.  There are other bits from Beowulf in the book.

[PatH]

We're scheduled to move on to the next section today, and new questions are up, but, as always, we can talk about the old section as much as we want.

[JudeS]

In today's local newspaper (San Jose mercury News)  there was a long article called "Bay Area Hobbitats".
The author came up with many ideas of places to visit around the Bay that could remind one of places in The Hobbit.
However her main thrust is culinary and as she says:
Hobbits are small but very fond of feasting. In fact a normal day in the Shire might include breakfast, second breakfast,
elevensies, lunch, tea, dinner and supper.
She mentions many restaurants that are gearing up to serve special menus for the opening of the movie. Those are local.
However at Denny's, which is a national chain (I think)  they are suggesting "Build your own Hobbit Slam.
This includes "Pumpkin,peach pancakes" and "Shire sausages".
 
As we get closer to tho opening day for the movie there will probably be similar articles and promotions in other parts of the U.S. There's something about the story that invites these ideas.

[JoanP]

Do you plan on seeing The Hobbit when it comes out, Jude?  I'm sure we'll be hearing more hype and seeing coming attractions for the film as we near the Dec. 14 airing date.  We'll probably wait for Netflix.  I wonder if real Tolkien fans will show up at the theatres in costume.  That would be worth seeing!

Well sure enough, the Arkenstone shows up in the next chapter.  Bilbo finds it...and takes it!  Doesn't tell the other dwarves and did you notice poor Thorin looking for that particular stone and nothing else?  Why do you think Bilbo took it?  For himself, for his share - or did he think that it would help them fight the dragon - as the ring had proven itself to be useful?  

What good is seeing all this treasure if they are helpless against Smaug when he returns?  Does Bilbo have a plan?  Does he still believe "where there is life, there is hope?"  Is he still feeling light-hearted, upbeat, positive? Or does he despair as the dwarves seem to be doing?  Actually, the dwarves seem distracted by the treasure, cramming their pockets with gems... even Bilbo is decked out in a coat of mail, a belt of pearls.  He feels magnificent, but admits he must look absurd.  This get-up won't do any good when Smaug returns.  What's the plan?  Surely Smaug will smell the dwarves as soon as he returns...

[Babi]

Beautiful gems, MARCIE. From the description in 'The Hobbit', I gather that it was faceted
so the smooth stones wouldn't fit. I have an image in my mind's eye, and I imagine each of
us does.
  That could be great fun, JUDE, ..going out to have a 'Hobbit' meal. Hopefully, ideas from
Bilbo's pantries rather than the journey fare.

 The beautiful Arkenstone.  Bilbo cannot resist it. He places it in his pocket,  justifying himself by deciding this is his choice for his share.  But like the ring, he decides not to tell the dwarves about it just now.  The Arkenstone, like the ring, seem to be key treasures in this story.
But how he can keep quiet about it when he sees how much it means to Thorin...that disturbs
me. 

  And Thorin, he keeps changing from the courageous king to the timid 'you do it' guy.  Bilbo is ready to explore the treasure cavern, but Thorin, the supposed leader of this expedition,  says that Bilbo is still the official investigator, and if he wanted to risk a light that was his affair, and they would wait in the tunnel 'for his report'.   I would think these incidents would lessen him in the eyes of his followers, but perhaps this is typical dwarf behavior.

[marcie]

JoanP, as Babi says, Bilbo cannot resist the Arkenstone. It seems to have a similar power to the ring....calling out to be owned (or own the owner?) The book says:

Suddenly Bilbo's arm went towards it drawn by its enchantment. His small hand would  not close about it, for it was a large and heavy gem; but he lifted it, shut his eyes and put it in his deepest pocket.

"Now I am a burglar indeed!" thought he. "But I suppose I must tell the dwarves about it-some time. The did say I could pick and choose my own share; and I think I would choose this, if they took all the rest!" All the same he had an uncomfortable feeling that the picking and choosing had not really been meant to include this marvellous gem, and that trouble would yet come of it.

It's true that Thorin always searched from side to side for the Arkenstone but he didn't mention it to anyone.

I'm sure we have not heard the last of it.

Jude, that's interesting that restaurants are picking up on Hobbit food. Never miss a marketing opportunity!

[PatH]

I hope the restaurants have plenty of mushrooms; that's a hobbit favorite.

If I don't see it before, I'll probably go see the movie with my SIL at Christmas time.  I'm going to pass up the golden opportunity to see it at midnight the 13th/14th with my sci-fi book group, even though at least one of them will be in costume.

[PatH]

Dragon hoards acquire an evil power of attraction, but the Arkenstone seems to have already had the power of attraction.  Thorin has been hoping all along to find it.  Now the dwarves are arming themselves with rich armor, and Bilbo gets a little coat of mail made of mithril, the silver-steel of the elves.  We'll see this coat again a generation later, in LOTR, when Frodo takes it on his quest; it proves to be very useful indeed.

[JoanP]

Is it clear yet why Thorin wants it?  Is he attracted to it the same way that Bilbo is?  Or does he have another use for it?   I'm guessing that Thorin knows the power of this stone, whereas Bilbo is just feeling its attraction - and sensing that it is worth taking.

[JudeS]

Although I am reading along with you I am only minimumly participating in the discussion.
I admit that I was curious about this book.
I know that most of you really like this story. So I will ask you:
1)What type of a quest is this? Gold , precious stones , jewels? Or is there something else that I am not seeing?
Don't say Bilbo is gaining courage. That is understood in every quest story.
Overcoming the Evil Dragon?
Is that the quest?
2) What does the Dragon symbolize? Rich people who just want more riches for the sake of having them?
Why the dragon can't even brag about his wealth. He has no friends, no compatriots, no sharers in his ill gotten gains.He can't write about it or sing about it or announce it from the rooftops.
3)Are we to understand that the gold will have more meaning if and when it is returned to its true owners? Share the wealth perchance?
Are we to surmise from the story that stealing is bad especially when you don't use the wealth for anyone except yourself?

What are we to make of this long story?  Is it symbolic or do people read symbols into it? Perhaps it really is "just a children's story".No more ,no less.

[JoanP]

Perhaps it is something we haven't seen in the story yet, Jude.  Up until now the dwarves have been pursuing what belonged to their fathers, and therefore to them.  I still don't know what's motivating Bilbo.  Could be something as simple as self-respect . Could be a mid-life crisis kind of thing - an unwillingness to admit that his days for adventure are over.

I'm thinking that when the day comes that Smaug is dead, the real story will begin. How the dwarves, the Lake people, the elves will regard the treasure in the mountain.  New wealth  does strange things to people.

Weren't you really shocked to see Smaug go out so early in the story. I'd been expecting a fight and dragon-slaying at the end. In case some of you have not moved on to the next chapter, I won't reveal how,  or who slayed him - except to point out that it was Bilbo's discovery of Smaug's weak spot that made it possible to bring him down.  Without that knowledge, that dragon would still be ravaging the Lake people and terrorizing the dwarves.

[PatH]

Good questions, Judy.  What is the quest?  For the dwarves, it's straightforward; they want to recover the treasure that was stolen from them, and re-establish their old kingdom under the mountain.  For Bilbo, at first it's not a quest at all.  He's merely roped into it by Gandalf and the dwarves, has no objective of his own.  Does it become more?  In Chapter 1 Tolkien says "--well, you will see whether he gained anything in the end."

What does anyone think, or is it too soon to say?

[PatH]

So while the dwarves are reveling in their treasure, looking for a safe place to hole up, and wondering where the dragon is, where is Smaug?  He's off getting his revenge on the town, and coming to a bad end.  Here's Tolkien's rough sketch of his last moments:

Death of Smaug

[JoanP]

Maybe a bit too soon to guess at Bilbo's quest just yet, Pat.  I don't think Bilbo really knows what has drawn him to this adventure- except for Gandalf's prodding.  Do you think it has something to do with Gandalf's knowledge of Bilbo's ancestors?  It seems that most of the characters are ftaking up their grandparents' issues, why not Bilbo?  Maybe his grandmother Took?

What fun to bring this story to the screen!  I'm looking forward to the new one, just to sww how it has been translated to the screen.  Tolkien's vivid word descriptions serve as staging direction for the settings, don't they? ...and his own sketches and illustrations too!

I found that same sketch, Pat...by Tolkien himself.  Was typing this out while you were posting~  My annotated edition contains these remarks by the author when he learns that his sketch is being considered for the cover of a paperback edition in 1966:

"I am not very happy about the use of this scrawl as a cover."  Then he goes on to criticize his own sketch in notes in the left margin:
"The moon should be a crescent, it was only a few nights after the New Moon on Durin's Day."

In the bottom left corner he writes:
"Dragon should have a white naked spot where the arrow enters."

At the bottom he writes:
"Bard the Bowman should be standing after release of arrow at extreme left point of the piles."

He sounds like a movie director, doesn't he?

[Babi]

  I came across this bit of info. on the upcoming film. I've trimmed it down a bit.
 The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey will be shown on a special kind of film with a
rate of 48 frames per second. To put it simply, viewers long accustomed to seeing 24 frames every second will see twice that many when they watch The Hobbit.  I spoke to Peter Jackson at Comic-Con and he mentioned that it takes the eye a few minutes to adjust to the
frame rate. Having seen the entire film in 48 FPS, I know what he meant -- and my
feelings about the format are very mixed.  Why would they choose to do that? 

 What does the dragon symbolize, JUDE? Just what you suggest, I imagine, only perhaps
reversed. If you are an ill-tempered creature that considers all other living things
to be food, having no friends or companions, I suppose the treasure is all you have.
Which would pretty well describe the archetypical miser.  As for the dwarves, I feel
they are seeking to reclaim not only the wealth, but their ancestral heritage as well.

 Well, we got the dragon attack and slaying, JOAN. Just not at the end. The slaying
of the dragon serves well to introduce the late-arriving new hero, BARD, of the line
of Dale.

 Dear Bilbo.  He is dressed in a beautiful suit of mithri armor,  a jeweled belt and a helmet studded with jewels. His reaction?  "I feel magnificent, but I expect I look rather absurd."    He is so down-to-earth...no pun intended.  I immediately thought of Robt. Frost: "Oh would some power the giftie gie us, to see ourselves as others see us.  It would from many a blunder free us, and foolish notion."

[marcie]

You are asking some central questions, Jude. As Pat indicates "In Chapter 1 Tolkien says '--well, you will see whether he gained anything in the end.' " Perhaps we have to wait to see more events to discover a fuller meaning to the dragon, treasure and all involved.

JoanP, I had your same reaction. Smaug was killed sort of "behind the scenes" from the dwarves. I was surprised that they didn't have to participate in the fight...except to "flush him out" so to speak. It was Smaug's own need for "revenge" that was his undoing. And the thrush passed on the needed information about the weak spot in his underbelly.

Thanks for the picture, Pat, and the notes, Joan. Tolkien does sound like a film director.

Babi, I appreciate your analysis and I am on the same page with you regarding your comments.

Interesting about the technical aspects of the film including frame rate. All of the decisions that need to be made by the director! I found this info about the 48 frames per second in wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_rate

    * 48p is a progressive format and is currently being trialed in the film industry. At twice the traditional rate of 24p, this frame rate attempts to reduce motion blur and flicker found in films. Director James Cameron stated his intention to film the two sequels to his film Avatar at a higher frame rate than 24 frames per second, in order to add a heightened sense of reality. The first film to be filmed at 48 FPS was The Hobbit, a decision made by its director Peter Jackson. At a preview screening at CinemaCon, the audience's reaction was mixed after being shown some of the film's footage at 48p, with some arguing that the feel of the footage was too lifelike (thus breaking the suspension of disbelief).

[JudeS]

Babi
It was Robert Burns who said:

"Oh would some power the giftie gie to us,
    to see ourselves as others see us.

Robert Frost said:

The woods are lovely, dark and deep
But I have promises to keep
And miles to go before I sleep.