Fairy Tales & Their Tellers~From the Beast to the Blonde~August Book Club Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

 

On Fairytales & Their Tellers ~  August  Book Club Online

 
 Source Books:
* From the Beast to the Blonde by Marina Warner  
* The Uses of Enchantment: The Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales by Bruno Bettelheim

Marina Warner's  From the Beast to the Blonde ... is a fascinating and  comprehensive study of the changing  cultural context of fairy tales and the people who tell them.  The first storytellers were women, grannies and nursemaids - until men like Charles Perrault, the Brothers Grimm, and Hans Christian Andersen started writing down and rewriting the women's stories.  Warner's interpretations show us how the real-life themes in these famous stories evolved: rivalry and hatred between women ("Cinderella" and "The Sleeping Beauty") and the ways of men and marriage ("Bluebeard.") Warner's book is huge.  We will regard it as a source to help interpret the stories  and plan to concentrate on the second half of Warner's book, in which she provides a sampling of the tales and demonstrates adult themes, such as the rivalry and hatred among women - and the association of blondness in the heroine with desirability and preciousness.

Bruno Bettelheim's book, The Uses of Enchantment: The Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales   may be more readily available.  It concentrates more on the psychology behind the fairytales and how important they are to a child's development, the way he perceives himself and the world. The author makes a case that fairytales are more important to a child's formation than any other form of children's lit. If you are unable to get your hands on either of these two books, not to worry.   The fairy tales themselves are readily accessible and those with  Warner's book can share the commentary.

For Your Consideration

1. As an educator and  therapist, why do you think  Bruno Bettelheim found fairy tales more rewarding  than any other children's stories in helping severely disturbed children?

2. Why does he think that fairy tales are  more important than ever  to a child's development today?  Do you agree?

3. Why does explaining a fairy tale  destroy the story's enchantment?  Have you ever done this when reading to a child?

4.  What do you think Bettelheim  means  when he says the fairy tale must be told in its "original form?"  Did you wonder what he considers the "original form" of a fairy tale?

5. Let's consider and compare the print versions of Little Red Riding,  as these are the ones to which  Bettelhiem seems to refer.   Which of these two versions of Little Red Riding Hood would you prefer to read to a child?   Little Red Riding Hood   (Charles Perrault - 1697)  or Little Red Cap   (Brothers Grimm - 1812) ?

6. Why do you think Bettelheim discounts Perrault's version of the story?

7.  Charles Perrault  brings these tales to the drawing room of the elite and wows them.  What is his background?  Is he a writer?  Is he a member of the aristocracy in France?

8. How has Perrault tamed the oral tale,
"The Story of Grandmother"   ,  on which he based his own "Little Red Riding Hood" -   

[Related Links:
Andrew Lang's Colour Fairy Books; Sur La Lune Annotated Fairy Tales ; A Roundtable Discussion: "How Fairy Tales Cast Their Spell"   ; Little Red Riding Hood   (Charles Perrault - 1697); Little Red Riding Hood   (Brothers Grimm - 1812); Little Red Cap (Brothers Grimm - second version see end )


 

Discussion Leader:  JoanP with JoanR, Guest DL

[JoanP]

Hello JoanG - just in time - happy to have you with us. Welcome !

I am sitting here at my computer getting some fairy tale links together for tomorrow.  You will do just fine, there is so much online.  
I'll ask Lindsay about joining us.  Right now she is collecting those little fairy books...has about 100 of them.  She loves fairies.  I think she is one.   Not sure about fairy tales.  

Marcie, look what I found while looking for something else -  Maria Tatar's The Hard Facts of the Brothers Grimm - seems to be the whole book online.  I'll put it in the new heading for tomorrow.  There's some good information here...

[marcie]

Thanks for locating that book by Maria Tatar, JoanP. A lot of the book is available but it looks like not all of it. I saw this notice after a few pages were skipped. "Many of the books you can preview on Google Books are still in copyright, and are displayed with the permission of publishers and authors. You can browse these "limited preview" titles just as you would in a bookstore, but you won't be able to see more pages than the copyright holder has made available. When you've accessed the maximum number of pages allowed for a book, any remaining pages will be omitted from your preview. You can order full copies of any book using the "Get this book" links to the side of the preview page."

[adichie]

Hi!  This is last minute - but I would like to join in the discussion too!

[JoanP]

Well, no, it's never the last minute, Adichie!  I just came in to put the new billboard up  above to prepare for tomorrow's discussion.  You are the first one here! Welcome!

Marcie, that's too bad about the incomplete Tatar book - it looked interesting.  Were you able to get her other book from the library?

Since the last posts you all were discussing Bettelheim - (and how you prefer Warner:D)  I thought we'd better start with Bettelheim, because we will probably be spending lots more time with Warner.

Bettelheim appears to speak only about the written fairy tales, beginning in the 17th century.  He speaks of their importance to a child's development - and which ones he finds most valuable.  Let's talk about the importance of the fairy tale this week - as he sees it - and the elements of LITTLE RED RIDING HOOD that he finds significant.  There are links to Charles Perrault's and the Brothers Grimm in the heading.  The Brothers Grimnm's version was included in Andrew Lang's Blue Fairy Book.

If you find observations about Little Red Riding Hood in Warner's Beast/Blonde, please feel free to share with us...but next week we will go into the oral sources for these tales, the myths and also the folklore.  Let's start slowly and pick up steam as we become more familiar with  the elements of the tale.
Some fairly shocking things I never thought of.  I'm going to ask 8 yr. old granddaugher to read both versions of Little Red Riding Hood and asked her which she preferred.  I'm almost afraid to ask her WHY after reading what Bettelheim had to say about that1

Welcome everyone - this is going to be FUN!

[marcie]

Hi, everyone. I too think that this topic is going to be fun and that I'm going to learn alot about fairy tales which I've always loved. (I hope I still love them when we're done!!   )

The book, "Enchanted hunters: the power of stories in childhood" by Maria Tatar, that I requested from an inter-library loan is on its way. I've also requested one of her other books that you just mentioned, JoanP, "The hard facts of the Grimms' fairy tales."  I thought I'd take at least a peek at them. I'll let  you all know what I find when I have time to look at them.

I'll read the two versions of Little Red Riding Hood and be back tomorrow.

[marcie]

JoanP, since you found I Tatar book, I thought I'd look for Bettleheim's book for those who don't have it.

At least some of Bettleheim's thoughts about Little Red Riding Hood are available here in "The Uses of Enchantment":
   
http://books.google.com/books?id=qTbBAYVv_KkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=uses+of+enchantment&source=bl&ots=kjYCm28O4o&sig=t8WIO472zaSq_WvpXauW1OrOSCg&hl=en&ei=aelUTOmjEoacsQO4ucXZAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CDMQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false

Scroll down just a little bit to the table of contents and click on Little Red Riding Hood.

[JoanR]

Hi!  I've also requested "Enchanted Hunters" on ILL.  While looking it up I discovered that Maria Tatar has done a few other books on fairy tales.  Our library system has her "Annotated Hans Christian Andersen" which she also translated - I read somewhere that Andersen often suffers from poor translations since a lot of his humor and sublety is lost in that way.  I've asked for that book too. 
Our local library has her "Off with Their Heads: fairy tales and the culture of childhood"  - I can get that tomorrow.
There's so much out there!!  A big subject!
 I've borrowed Iona and Peter Opie's "The Classic Fairy Tales" gorgeously illustrated with many of the old pictures.  This book contains 24 of the best-known fairy tales as they were first presented in English.  There is a long general introduction and they also introduce each tale with some of its history.  I liked the book so much that I poked about on the internet for a reasonable used copy, found one on ABEbooks. Yay!  I just hope it's in decent shape.

This is making Latin suffer from neglect !!  I'll be in trouble!!

[JoanK]

ADICHIE: WELCOME, WELCOME. You're never too late in these discussions, just pull up a seat and join right in. Check out our other discussions too, by hitting the arrow following "jump to" at the bottom of the page.

I don't have any fairytale books, but I'll follow and stick my two cents in once and a while.

[JoanP]

 
JoanR, can't you get Little Red Riding Hood in Latin?  That might help.

Marcie, thank you for the link to Bettelheim's book - that will help those who were unable to get a library copy.

 JoanK - start with  Perrault's Little Red Riding Hood and Grimm's "Little Red Cap" - links to these stories are in the heading.  I'd like to hear what you think of each of these tales.  Be sure to read the second Grimms' version, where they tack on the tale of another wolf who approaches Little Red on a later date...

Charles Perrault fascinates me.  He brings these tales to the drawing room of the elite and wows them.  What is his background?  Is he a writer?  Is he a member of the aristocracy in France?  It's 1697.  How's your history - who is on the throne?

[kidsal]

Believe Grimm's Little Red Riding Hood would be more suitable for children as has a rather happy ending.  Not to sure a young child would understand the Moral at end of Perrault's version.

[JudeS]

I did some reading about Perrault.
He indeed comes from an aristocratic and successful family. His brother designed the original Louvre.  he had a very successful career in Government and in the Arts.  At age 47 he married a 19 year old and they had four children (a girl and three boys) before she died, just six years after they married.
    At age 67 his career in govt. ended and he decided to collect and publish his children's favorite fairy tales. This effort, like all his others, was extremely successful.  He published the book under the name of his youngest son.
   It seems that Louis the xiv was on the throne for most of Perraults career.  Among the most famous writers of the time were Racine and Madame La Fayette.  The reigning philosophy of the time, according to the article, was "Encyclopedic Humanism" and the main goal of writers was thought to be  "to please and to educate".

 This is not an in depth analysis of the times but a brief survey that may provide the information needed for our main subject.
There are inumerable articles on Perrault on Google for those wanting a more detailed view of the man and his times.

[JoanK]

"Believe Grimm's Little Red Riding Hood would be more suitable for children as has a rather happy ending".

More or less by accident, I once went to a meeting of a folk tale group. One woman used to tell fairy stories at a local library, and said that she always gave them happy endings. But one man claimed that the tragic endings were important to children (He didn't really say why). I guess that's what we'll be talking about.

[JoanR]

I've just been browsing through Maria Tatar's "Off with Their Heads" and see that she is pretty critical of a lot that Bettelheim says.  One example: "Much as Bettelheim sees himself as the advocate of children in his effort to sanctify their literature by purging it of the evils of adult interpretation (an impossible task since children's literature is produced by adults), his efforts misfire when it comes to fairy tales.  ..... they none the less remain the creation of adults."  pg.78

Early peasant oral versions of Red Riding Hood were very violent with racy episodes and sensational events.  In Perrault and Grimm, we have a cautionary tale - don't stray from the path and don't speak to strangers! In some versions, Little Red Riding Hood & the grandmother are saved but in others they are consumed by the wolf.  I suppose it depends on how strong one wants to make his admonition!

[lindsayp]

I liked Little Red Cap by Brothers Grimm.
 
The little girl learned a few things.
 
 * Don't listen to wolves
 
 * Don't be distracted
 
 *Stay on the trail.
 
 L.A.P

[JoanP]

Here's my girl,   Meanma's precious granddaughter -   Lindsay is 8 years old - well, almost 9 ~  she's got a birthday coming up - real soon!  I asked her which of the two tales she preferred...
  
Lindsay - you give great reasons for preferring the Grimm Brothers'  "Little Red Cap."  She learned some valuable lessons...She was rescued and had a second chance.  
There is actually a second version the Grimms wrote - In that one, Little Red Cap goes out again and shows that she learned those lessons -  Here's the second version - see the end -   Little Red Cap (Brothers Grimm - second version see end )

In the first version of "Little Red Riding Hood" - the wolf eats her up - and the poor grandmother too - and that's the end of the story.  Charles Perrault does write a moral at the end...but Little Red didn't learn anything at all.  The wolf ate her - She's gone. No second chances.

Did you notice the doting grandmother at the beginning of the story? Sounds like she was spoiling that girl something fierce.  Does that sound familiar?  Did you wonder why Little Red was sent into the woods alone when there were wolves in there?

[JoanP]

You know what I just noticed?  The link in the heading to Perrault's tale is the version Andrew Lang collected for his Blue Fairy Book.  It doesn't include
the Moral he later tacked on to the end of the story!  I wonder why not.  I guess I ought to change the link from Andrew Lang's to the later version with the moral -

Moral: Children, especially attractive, well bred young ladies, should never talk to strangers, for if they should do so, they may well provide dinner for a wolf. I say "wolf," but there are various kinds of wolves. There are also those who are charming, quiet, polite, unassuming, complacent, and sweet, who pursue young women at home and in the streets. And unfortunately, it is these gentle wolves who are the most dangerous ones of all.

Yes, I remember that Bettelheim was very critical of Perrault's attachment - his point was that the moral talked down to the child and took away from the child his/her own interpretation of the story, which Bettelheim considered so important to the child's development.

Kidsal, you were right - Lindsay preferred Grimm - but not for the reasons I thought she might, she doesn't mention the happy ending.   She felt the little girl in the story learned her lesson.  There was no mention of what she, herself had learned - on a subconscious level.

[JoanP]

Jude, thanks for filling us in on Charles Perrault's status in society.  I think my next question is going to be - where did the oral fairy tales come from?  Don't you wonder what they were like? Were they the early peasant versions JoanR describes?   I'll bet he had to tone them down for the salons.
  JoanR - there were a few others who wrote down the oral tales at the same time Perrault was writing his.  I think it would be interesting to compare what they wrote with Perrault's, don't you.  Let's hunt some up!

[JudeS]

This might be fun fo you all.  Perraults moral of the Red Ridinghood storywritten in French rhyme) translated into English:

 Moral
Young children, so we closely see
Pretty girls, especially,
Innocent of all life's dangers
Shouldn't stop and chat with strangers.
If this simple advice beats them
Its no surprise if a wolf eats them.

And this warning take,I beg:
Not every wolf runs on four legs.
The tongue of a smooth skinned creature
May mask a rough and wolfish nature.
These quiet types, for all their charm
Can be the cause of the worse harm.

[roshanarose]

This spot looks like fun.  May I join in when I have something to say?

As I was reading about the Brothers Grimm, I was reminded of being totally shocked as a small girl by the illustration of a horse's head hanging on a wall in a village.  As I have always loved horses this terrible pic has always stayed in my memory.  Or maybe it was Hans Christian Andersen's story.

Was there a Pink Fairy Book also?  I remember reading some Persian fairy tales when I was small.  Lots of flying horses, carpets and such.  Can't remember the name of the book though.

My ex mother-in-law, in her wisdom, threw away some of my very precious childhood books, when she was in one of her frenzied clean-up modes, one of which was an original copy of "Pookie"; "I had Two Ponies" and a magnificent illuminated copy of a book my grandparents had brought over from England.  Cassell's History of England.  I was devastated  by their loss and felt I had lost a part of my being.

At a certain age, about eight as I recall, I discovered "Myths and Heroes" by Gustav Schwab and my real passion in life was developed.  All things Greek.  Has there ever been a discussion about Greek Myths? 

[adichie]

I have been thinking about this issue of whether adults should aid children in understanding the moral of a fairy tale - or whether the fairy tale should just be presented to a child and the child left to a absorb/understand it in any way he or she does.

I remember reading Little Red Riding Hood (the Grimm brothers version) when I was young - as far as I can remember I just took it as a good story with a villain, a heroine, some suspense.  I never thought about what it meant - I don't remember ever taking any lesson from the story.  It touched me emotionally - I was scared for Red Riding Hood - I was worried about the grandmother - I was fearful of the wolf.  But I'm not sure I got any life lesson out of it.  Maybe I was just dense. 

I am wondering what other people's experience of the story when they were young was. 

[marcie]

Welcome, Lindsay.  I'm so glad that you joined us. Your grandmother told us that you like fairy stories and have a lot of them. I think that the first fairy I learned about was Tinker Bell from Peter Pan. I don't know if your fairies are like her.

Thank you for telling us which Little Red Riding Hood or Little Red Cap story you liked and what things Little Red Cap learned from her meeting with the wolf. You must be a good reader.
----------

I'm still reading the Bettleheim section on Little Red Riding Hood (I seem to only be able to read a little at a time). I'll post more when I've finished.

[ursamajor]

In the days of my youth a predatory male was referred to as a wolf - as in wolf whistle.  I seem to envision mine wearing a WW II soldier's uniform.  I don't remember having fairy tales read to me, although I am sure they were; I read so early and so often that my own experience overlays any memory of the stories.

 I do remember being read to from "Pilgrim's Progress" and the ensuing nightmares about the valley of the shadow of death.  I think my mother had to read it for a class and thought I would not comprehend enough to be frightened by it.  Mistaken assumption.

[JoanR]

The only thing that I remember being read to me was a Raggedy Ann story because I had the doll.  I learned to read before school - actually from the "funny papers" - suddenly one Sunday, "Biff, bang, pow!" became real!  That's a very vivid memory!  Then I read every thing I could get hold of - fairy tales especially. " The Goose Girl", the story Roshanarose refers to, just about broke my heart and still is upsetting.

An early reader will read a lot of things that are beyond his comprehension but I sure understood  the goose girl's loss of her horse!

[JoanP]

Good morning, Roshanarose!  We are happy to have you join in this fascinating discussion.  Welcome!

There are some links in the heading that may be of help during the discussion - and also some topics we are presently considering - though it is not necessary to stick to those questions...
You asked a question about the PINK Fairy books - in the heading there is a link to Andrew Lang's collection of colour Fairy Books.  If you click on that - you will see the coloured Fairy Book covers.  Did your ex- MIL discard your pink fairy book?  When you click the pink book cover, you will see the Table of Contents - and then thanks to the wonders of the Internet, you can read the stories online!  Here's the link that is found in the heading of this discussion: Andrew Lang's Colour Fairy Books



 

[JoanP]

An early reader will read a lot of things that are beyond his comprehension

JoanR, I think I remember that as one of Bettelheim's points...that a child lets go by the things  s/he doesn't understand or notice because s/he isn't ready to handle certain issues at that particular stage of development.  Should the adult point out and explain these things to a child?   I was interested to see that Lindsay picked up on the cautionary message of the story - that the little girl learned her lesson, but not clear that she picked up on what Perrault was saying.  Andrew Lang's blue book story that I asked her to read did not include the admonition to little girls.  I conclude that he(Perrault)  thought the message might be lost on the readers of the tale - so felt compelled to add the admonition where it had not existed before.  (Still smiling at the translation Jude brought in yesterday - a clear message of what happens to those who don't heed the warning! )

I'm just noticing some things now that I never paid attention to before - I guess I've reached the stage in my own development where I pick up on the doting grandmother who can't do enough for the littlle granddaughter.  Did you notice in Perrault where he says Little Red's mother loved the little girl - but not as much as the grandmother did.  That jumped right out of the page at me!  

I'm thinking of the illustrated childern's books of Fairy Tales...have always loved Doré - I came across this link -     Perrault's Tale with Doré's illustrations and couldn't help but thing that such graphic illustrations would bring some things to a child's attention that might not have been apparent when reading the story.  Do you think these illustrations influenced a child's understanding of what s/he was reading?

 I'm wondering if you think that  illustrations might interfere with the child's own imaginery picture of what that wolf looks like - of Little Red's gullibility?

[dbroomsc]

My interest in fairy tales has been rekindled.  As a child I remember the stories of "Cinderella," "The Three Little Pigs," "Goldilocks and the Three Bears," etc.  But the story I remember most was "Little Red Riding Hood," the version where the woodman comes to the rescue.  How satisfying it was for me to know that no matter what the problem was, help was on the way.  As I became older, I realized that that was not always the case.  Help was not always on the way.  I learned that I was in charge of my own help, thus my own life.  Therefore, I find the second ending of Grimm's "Little Red Riding Hood" having more meaning for me.

[ursamajor]

I have been thinking of Bettelheim's comments on different endings and the effect on a child.  For hundreds of years these tales were told by different storytellers without being written down.  It stands to reason that the stories were different every time they were told - oral tradition is just like that.  Different storytellers would always present a somewhat different version from each other.  This would account for the differences between Little Red Riding Hood and Little Red Cap.

I heard an Alaskan professional storyteller, Jack Dalton, tell the creation story of his Yupik tribe.  He talked about the necessity of having permission from the previous story teller to tell the story, and was rather miffed about a picture book illustrating the story for sale in Alaska; the producers "didn't have permission".  The tribal stories he tells have a lot in common with fairy tales.

[Gumtree]

Ursamajor - Your comment about the Alaskan storyteller and their creation stories put me in mind of our Australian Aboriginals and their stories of the 'Dreamtime' (creation myths etc).  The 'elders' of the tribes pass on the stories to the next generation of whom only the chosen are permitted to tell some of the stories. And yes, there are some similarities between some of the 'Dreamtime' stories and the fairy tale.

[Gumtree]

JoanK - As usual I've been lurking - this is such an interesting topic. I can't get the Warner book readily and doubt if there is any fairytale book in the house apart from Perrault's 'Mother Goose Stories' so wasn't going to participate but then out of curiosity I checked out Red Riding Hood in the header - I think that was my undoing.

The story I know from childhood is the one where the woodsman comes along and saves the day - but what really got my attention was that I scrolled down the page to read different versions and was surprised to see one there under the heading Lower Lusatia -

Lower Lusatia has more meaning for me than for most folk as DH's family emigrated from there to Australia in the 1850s. Strange to realise that we heard the same Red Riding Hood story in our childhood as did generations of DH's family in Lusatia.

The source for the Lusatian version is shown as from A.H Wratislaw with notes indicating Wratislaw's belief in RRH being a lunar legend with RRH as the moon wandering who is intercepted by the wolf (an eclipse) which tries to swallow the moon. The moon aka RRH is then rescued by the sun (the archer - ie woodsman). I find the combination of Greek, Norse, Slavonic and German myths and folklore so interesting -  wish there was time enough to explore all these avenues.

I guess I'll keep lurking if I may. 

[straudetwo]

Welome, Gumtree !

JoanP,  Marina Warner's  beautifully illustrated book is a treasure one longs to have and hold, and turn to again and again.  I read it in June  and have just reordered it  from the library for this discussion.

The author deals first with The Tellers (Part One, Chapters 1-12), continues with The Tales (Part Two, Chapters 13-22), and added a Conclusion.  

She starts with the earliest figures and symbols: the Sybil in the Cunnean cave,  enchantresses from classical mythologiy,  biblical figures in various guises according to different traditions in different parts of the world (e.g. Saint Anne, he Queen of Sheba).

Gossip and transmission by word of mouth  establshed and carried forward the tradition until Charles Perrault, whom you mentioned,  collected and brought out The Tales of Mother Goose, well before the Brothers Grimm wrote theirs.

Warner points out that there is a dark side to some tales (very different from Disney's romanticized, "sanitized" versions), representative of all human traits, some anything but pretty - in short,  the human condition.

I have not read anything by Bruno Bettelheim,   only about alleged controversies laer in his life.  

[JoanP]

Dean69  - you and Charles Dickens with your love for Little Red Riding Hood!  
Dickens called Little Red Riding Hood his first love. "I should have known perfect bliss," he claimed if he had been able to marry her.   What do you think he meant by that?  He never got over his first love?

I loved your own coming of age story.  Both Bettelheim and Warner look at that hunter as a protective father figure.  But  for every little girl reading the tale, he won't always be there for her.  She must learn to protect herself.  An important message from the tale, isn't it?  One I don't think the young will bring away from the story.

[JoanP]

Ursa - I'd been wondering  why Bettelheim warned that we read the tale to the child exactly as it was written.  Was he referring to Grimms' version - or Perrault's? Now I'm thinking that perhaps he meant we must  read the story exactly as written - but DON'T tell the tale yourself - no oral storytelling on your own.  Do you think that's what he meant?

As you say,  "for hundreds of years these tales were told by different storytellers without being written down.   Different storytellers would always present a somewhat different version from each other."  Bettelheim would understand that Alaskan storyteller of the Yupik tirbe...

I spent the better part of an hour trying to find the other versions of Red Riding Hood that were popular in the salons in the 17th century.  Without success!  I was certain I had read  Madame d’Aulnoy's Red Riding Hood.  I guess it was her Cinderella, which we should get to next week.  While searching for her Red Riding Hood, I learned that she  predated Charles Perrault, who is usually credited with having written down the first fairytales.    D’Aulnoy was famous   for the stories she told in her Parisian salon beginning in 1685 . . . Perrault, who moved in the same social circles, would have known these tales quite well. Maybe he wrote them down first...  His niece Marie-Jeanne L'Heritier was also writing Fairy Tales shortly after her uncle wrote them down.  There is a version of her Cinderella available too.  It was Madame d'Aulnoy who first coined the term, "contes des fees" - fairy tales.

[roshanarose]

Fortunately, my MIL did not throw out all my books.  My ex and I were in transit and couldn't pack all the books in the car, so we left some under his bed at his home and instructed MIL we would be coming back for them.  End of story.....  Though, it still hurts.

It has been fascinating reading your takes on fairy stories.  "The Goose Girl" - yes, you are right that was the name.  As I said I can't remember its author, but that picture haunts me still, and not helped by a similar scene in "The Godfather".  Just too awful.

GumtreeI managed to order a copy of the book you seek through www.fishpond.com.au.  I ordered a 2nd hand version which costs $22.00 in paperback.  The new book was c.$45.00.  www.abebooks.com also have it - the cheapest being $32.60 + $8.50 postage.

When I think about Little Red Riding Hood, I always think of that song "Hey There Little Red Riding Hood.  You sure are looking good.  Walking through those spooky old woods alone" and so on.

[JoanP]

Gum - is that you lurking  there in the spooky woods?  So happy you're here.  Can promise to put links to all the stories we are discussing - knowing that  the Warner book is a problematic in the antipodes...

Can you relate the difference between the Grimm version and the one from Lower Lusatia  (where is Lusatia?)   I too find the myths and folklore behind the tales fascinating...we do have some time to consider them - maybe we'll even decide that we would like to revisit some of them in another discussion.

Traudee, you're fortunate to be able to get the Warner book back again.  You're right, it is a treasure.  Warner goes into the myths and the folklore, as you say. We're nearly ready to go into the oral storytelling  behind Perrault's Little Red Riding Hood.  
 
As you say,   there is a dark side to these tales...and we are about to consider that.  For those who have Warner's book - or Bettelheim's book, you are probably seeing those issues  now.  We're nearly ready to talk about some of those shocking stories...which, as Traudee pointed out are "anything but pretty - but in short, the human condition."

Roshanarose, I can imagine how that hurt.  I remember losing several cartons of treasured books during a move many years ago.  The superintendent in our building thought the boxes in the hallway were to be discarded - and by the time I got to him to ask if he saw them, he had emptied the boxes into the furnace!   You never really forget something like that.  I'm glad you'll have Marina Warner's book back on your shelf.  It contains much of the kind of information that you are interested in...

[JudeS]

As many of you may know Bettleheim has been "defrocked" because of his false, misleading and cruel theory re: "Refrigerator Mothers" causing Autism in their children.

The ideas he suggests re Little Red Riding Hood in his book may have some nuggets of truth among the dozens of thoughts and ideas he espouses as the "ultimate truth" about this fairy tale and its effects on children.

I would take it all with many grains of salt.  Bettelheim is a Freudian who thinks his Freudian interpretation is more Freudian than Freud himself.  B is always too sure of himself and often views himself and his ideas as the ultimate and only truth.

Having been at lectures with this man and having met him personally I can say he accepted no idea that may have any different  outcome than the one he suggested.
He put down people that dared to ask leading questions regarding his theories and never, ever  accepted that he could be wrong. He may take what may be a little segment of truth and blow it out of proportion to what it was worth originally.

I am not denying that his book has some worth but only that one has to be careful not to swallow the chaff with the wheat.

[JoanP]

Oho...Jude, thank you so much!  Just  now I was reading some of Bettelheim's  interpretations of the Little Red Riding Hood tale - and wondering how much of it was accepted, how much was his own...

  Before I read your post, I was thinking it would be interesting to compare the two, Perrault's and Grimm's - before going
backwards to look at the oral tale Perrault is said to have used as his source.  Maybe Bettelheim was using the pre-Perrault tale to reach some of these conclusions...(more Freudian than Freud himself?!)

Jude, as one in the know, will you fill us in on the "Refridgerator Mamas"  ...causing Autism?

[JoanP]

This can get complicated.  Let's do this - let's read the tale that seems to be recognized by those in the know as the translation that was the source material for Perrault' tale.  After that we can consider Bettelheim's interpretation and explanation -

 I'm not at all sure in what form Perrault heard this version of the story.  He could not have heard this from his children!
HOLD ON TO YOUR LITTLE RED CAPS - it's quite a story!
 
"This is the  version which, according to Paul Delarue, was the source material for the Perrault tale. The translation here is from Delarue via Jack Zipes from his "Trials and Tribulations of Little Red Riding Hood" -
  

"The Story of Grandmother"  Perrault's probable source -

[marcie]

JudeS, I too appreciate your posting that information about Bettleheim from your own professional and personal experience. I thought that some of the things that he said in his book made sense. For example, at the end of Part One in the section "On the Telling of Fairy Stories," he said "Telling is preferable to reading because it permits greater flexibility.... Slavishly sticking to the way a fairy story is printed robs it of much of its value. The telling of the story to a child, to be most effective, has to be an interpersonal event, shaped by those who participate in it. There is no getting around the possibility that this also contains some pitfalls. A parent not attuned to his child, or too beholden to what goes own in his own unconscious, may choose to tell fairy tales on the basis of his needs--rather than those of the child. . ."

That seems very open to understanding an individual child and tailoring a story a bit to the particular needs and interests of the child at a particular time.

Bettleheim seems like he was a very imaginative person and, likely, his telling of stories to children was entertaining and supportive. However, his descriptions of what the story "really means" --according to Freud--was too much for me. His Freudian interpretation of almost every single detail in the Little Red Riding Hood or Little Red Cap stories seems to me so over the top, they became almost funny to me, especially in light of recent thoughts about Freud. A 2006 Newsweek article called Freud "history’s most debunked doctor." http://www.newsweek.com/2006/03/26/freud-in-our-midst.html

[JoanP]

Marcie, I'm so glad you brought our attention to the last pages of Part One in Bettelheim's book - "On the Telling of Fairy Stories."  I had the opposite impression from reading the Introduction in which he wrote the stories should be told as they were written.  That the child would pick up on the points he was ready to deal with - and the parent or the teller was admonished not to explain anything more to a child than he/she was ready to understand...at his stage of development.  (I remember wondering which version of the story he was talking about when he said that - concluded it must have been Grimm's.)  That all made sense to me and I accepted it.
So I was quite surprised to read in  this section that "a fairy tale should be told rather than read."  It seems to me that a parent or the teller of the tale would have greater input into which parts of the tale is told to the child...  Doesn't that seem to be the opposite of what he said in the Intro?  I feel that a combination of reading and conversation with the child would be a better way to go.  But I'm not Bruno Bettelheim!

I had to smile when he wrote-
"The loving grandmother who tells the tale to a child who, sitting on her lap, listens to it enraptured, will communicate something very different than a parent who, bored by the story, reads it to several children of quite different ages out of a sense of duty."

It will be interseting to read what Marina Warner thinks of Bettelheim's Freudian interepretations ...but first, am interested to hear what you thought of the oral tale on which Perrault is said to have based his written version of the story -  
"The Story of Grandmother"