Little Bee by Chris Cleave ~ January Bookclub Online

[deems 2]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

January Book Club Online  "Little Bee" by Chris Cleave Little Bee, or The Other Hand, as it was called when it was published in Great Britain in 2008, has captured the attention of millions of readers and elicited a wide range of reactions from shock and outrage to praise for the portrayal of the two main characters, whose personal lives become inextricably intertwined. In view of the publishers' request not to reveal too much of the plot too soon, we have foregone the customary questions in favor of presenting background information that may be useful. As always, we invite your comments and insights in the course of the discussion.

Facts: *Nigeria gained independence from British rule on October 1, 1960.  Around that time oil was discovered in the Niger delta, raising the hope that a post-colonial backwater country could rise to international prominence, radically improve its economy to better the health and education of its citizens. *Today Nigeria is the eighth largest exporter of crude oil with billions of dollars in oil revenues annually. The Nigerian government and the oil companies have benefited, but the Nigerian people are still among the poorest in the world.  Only 40% of the total population have access to electricity. Life expectancy is less than 46 years; infant mortality in the first year after birth alarmingly high.  There is environmental damage in the mining area and ongoing unrest in the country. Oil, blessing or curse? *The "Black Hill Immigratio Removal Center" in the book is fictitious, like the characters. However, holding places, safe havens  for foreign nationals, have existed in Britain since the Immigration Act of 1971 introduced "detention centres', as they were called,  to impose restrictions on their movements. The government immigration policy was tightened in 2002 in the wake of concern over increasing  numbers of asylum seekers. Today there are ten immigration removal centers in England and Wales, all run for profit by private companies at taxpayers' expense.

Reading Schedule

January 2,   Chapters One to Three, pages 1-85
January 9,   Chapters Four and Five, pages 86-149
January 16,  Chapters Six to Nine, pages 150-231
January 23, Chapter Ten, pages 232-266
January 30-31,  Conclusions  

Discussion Leaders:  Traude and Andy

I'm sorry.  I meant odd as in curious.  We have four women leaving the detention center after having been there for some two years more or less.  And yet everyone is waiting quietly in line.  I found that curious.  Not untrue, just curious.  

It is a poignant scene to me because they must have been crazy to get out.  (I get stir crazy if I stay inside for a day.)  But they had been inside long enough to know better than to call attention to themselves.  No one is there to help them leave.  They have nowhere to go.  They do not know where they are.  They have nothing to say to the cab company.  And gradually, we the readers begin to understand this.  It is probably the slowest escape scene I have ever witnessed.  And the longer it takes, the more intense it becomes.  In a very calm way.  Until finally, Little Bee has to be pushed across the threshold.

I don't really think they were actually calm.  I think that they appeared to be calm.  Because they had to.  Because they could not speak.  Because they were numb.  One of these women will kill herself within 24 hours.

[rosemarykaye]

Alf - just a small point.  Sarah is not upper class, she is upper middle class - they are quite different.  Having lived amongst the upper class estate owners of Deeside for some years, I am sure that an upper class Sarah would have dealt with things in a different way, with no introspection at all - the ones I knew were always immensely confident and never doubted their own actions or interpretation of things for one second.

Also, they would never have gone on holiday to Nigeria!  They would have villas in Tuscany or France, with trips to the Carribean thrown in every so often.  (When Anna was small she was at the local country primary school with some of the children of these families - one of them was taken out of school during term time for a family trip, and was told to make a diary of the trip as her homework.  It duly appeared, complete with the First Class menu from Concorde  .)

Sorry, not meaning to be pedantic,

Rosemary

[Babi]

 Hi, Olle; glad to meet you. You bring out a good point about the
difference in writing styles between Little Bee and Sarah pointing
up the gap between the two worlds. I hadn't thought of it that way
but you are quite right; it does.

  I agree, ALF, it would be nice if Sarah could resolve Charlie's
fears by 'enveloping him in maternal concern'. But Sarah, much as
she loves Charlie, is also part of the strain and tension that has
been surrounding the child for the past two years. He loves her, but
I don't think he can entirely relax his guard with her. Maybe I'm
making too much of it; I hope the latter part of the book will make
it clearer.

Little Bee says ‘A story is a powerful thing in my country.” I
think that must be true of all cultures where word of mouth is the primary means of preserving a history and culture.  I found this bit
about the stories of Nigeria.
. Oral literature ranges from the proverbs and dilemma tales of the common people to elaborate stories memorized and performed by professional praise-singers attached to royal courts. (The Nigerian Embassy, Moscow)
  When Little Bee tells Sarah all that has happened to her, she is carrying
on the story-telling tradition of her country.

[bookad]

I got so involved with the book, I finished it yesterday.  It just propelled me thru....and I needed to know......further!

When I read I'm afraid unless very poorly written, I just go with the flow and go with what is being written feeling the story, becoming involved, losing myself in the pages

I remember hearing that Inuit people have many different words for 'snow' or 'ice' and their culture sees much more than a mere --snowflake--so would "Little Bee" and her descriptions which are so poetical be a result of their culture and story telling ....but I love the way she puts things into words giving a picture of i.e. the sky, a much richer impression ...is it just indigenous peoples who are able to present their speech to give such richness!!!  I'm envious.

Deb

[JudeS]

Hi
I'm a week late (and a penny short?) in coming in to the discussion. We returned from cold rainy Long Beach and San Diego CA. visiting son and family, both of us very ill. My husband with Bronchitis and asthma and I with pneumonia.So our only focus the last week was visiting the Dr., getting anti-biotic shots, taking anti-biotics by mouth and oodles of cough syrup, cough drops and other delights.
Luckily I read the book before the trip. I enjoyed it very much.It held me from start to finish.
Today I read all the posts.I must say as a Child Therapist that in my opinion Sara is what is known as a "Good enough" parent". i.e. a parent that gives their child enough to encourage the healthy growth and development of their  personality without too much interference. At the same time she is allowing the child to grow she is providing enough of a safety net for the child to know that he is loved and appreciated.  A secure and independent  personality will follow.

Andrew's death is the touchstone around which our characters circle in the first chapters. Reactions of children to death of a parent are as variable as the number of those who parents die.  One reaction does not fit all.  I think the author shows the correct reaction for Charlie. Like Batman, real but not really real. He exists but not in our world. Using the allegory ofBatman was an inspired choice by the author brought about by observing his own child live that fantasy with a living parent and imagining how the child would react if he the father\author died.







 

[bellamarie]

Jude- I so agree with you on your statement,"Reactions of children to death of a parent are as variable as the number of those who parents die.  One reaction does not fit all."  I just watched a movie tonight called The Boys Are Back with Clive Owen, (he sure is easy on the eyes) ooops back to the topic, anyway...it was about him losing his wife suddenly to cancer and they shared a young son about five yrs old.  It made me think of Charlie and how he is preoccupied with his Batman, the boy in the movie had a toy and as the father tried talking to him about his mother dying he just kept playing with his toy.  The grandmother started to tell him to stop and the father said, Don't let him be, he finds comfort in his toy and he has just lost his mother."  So as I said before and I think we almost all agree....Batman is Charlie's security blanket so to speak.  

Now for Sarah, I now understand her aloofness to the death of her husband.  How on earth did I miss the fact she has been carrying on an affair behind Andrew's back.  I'm beginnig to think my Nook is not as good as a real book!!!  I have to blame it on using the Nook, I could not possibly be me dozing off while reading.  LOL

Andy~I like how you mention everyone seems to be battling the baddies.  
Rosemary~ I agree the elite would not choose Nigeria as a vacation spot when they can come home and name drop about Tuscany or Venice etc.  Oh how I would like to know what it would be like to be amongst the elite...lolol Nah...I'll be happy with Sandusky Ohio's Great Wolf Lodge with the grnkids.  Italy is over rated...coming from a decedant of Italy, imagine that.  All joking aside, I would love to see my heritage homeland.  And yes, bellamarie is perfectly okay to call me, my Italian father was determined I have an Italian name so my first name is Annabella and middle name is Marie so it was easy to use bellamarie for my screen name.  I love knowing my Daddy chose my name since he was killed when I was barely two years old and I have no memory of him.  Oh how my Mom and siblings kept him alive as though I knew him myself growing up.  Something I'm not so sure Sarah will be doing for poor Charlie.

Deems~ A catfight.....oh how I love a jokester!!!!! We are a group of many opinions thats what I love about SeniorLearn, we can respectfully disagree, or agree to disagree whichever.

Okay its very late for me so off to bed I go, will be back as soon as I finish assigned chapters.

Ciao for now~

[nolvikarn]

You are all ways ahead of me, but I'll try to keep up with you.
I have had the same reflection about LilBees too adult thinking. It s a bit annoying but understandable if the author wants to made us look behind the circumstances that has led us to the actual situation.
I say us. Because I think Mr. Cleaver wants to say that we are all accessory in what's happening. Even if we are silent, live our lives and minding our own business.
That insight has come to Sarah and although she knows that she can't do anything about the situation in Nigeria, she can help one single person. That is a great step for her and she also realize that her position as an editor have a small chance to make other women look at "the real world". They/she don't look on Nigeria as a country in civil war, just as a sandy, sunny beach where you can relax.

Lawrence is a typical civil servant, who follows the regulations. He is doing his job and that is. A conflict between compassion and moral courage.
I have no aspects on her infidelity. Her marriage was over and Andrew had given up everything.

In Gothenburgs forbidden "Red district" you can find many Nigerian girls. Victims of trafficking.
In Sweden it is forbidden to by sex - not not sell it!
Strange country.
Olle

[Ella Gibbons]

Are we ready to take on the next three chapters? 

[Babi]

  It's kind of you to excuse Sarah, OLLE.  As you say, "Her marriage was over and Andrew had given up everything."  Still, that affair began
before the incident in Nigeria.  I'm not so generous in my opinion of her
infidelity.

   On story-telling, if you pan down on this link, you will find a Nigerian story of  a tortoise and a hare, but quite a different one from ours. It includes  elements of  another well-known  children’s tale.  I suspect the origins of “Uncle Remus" were Nigerian. http://www.uni.edu/gai/Nigeria/Lessons/Storytelling.html


 

[ALF43]

Babi- thank you for that link to the Nigerian story created as a way of making sense of natural events in the world.  I always felt that story telling was a wonderful art and a means to teach values and moral lessons.  Is it a dying art today?
OLLe- I can understand why some of these girls end up involved in the "sex trafficking rings."  They have no money, no place to live and no means to support themselves.  Can you explain to me who or what Gothenburgs is?

In Gothenburgs forbidden "Red district" you can find many Nigerian girls. Victims of trafficking.  

Ella-  Yes, let us move into chapters 4 and 5, where things are made a bit clearer with Sarah and Little Bee's narrative, as they account for their chance meeting on the beach in Nigeria.
 These two chapters are filled with unbridled greed (oil) and corruption proving them difficult to read and comprehend without revulsion at the horrors humans inflict upon their fellow man.  

[ALF43]

In memory of your daddy, Bella-  -  I like that name best- so Bella you will always be (to me.)
Losing your dad when you were so young is heart breaking.
 

Oh how my Mom and siblings kept him alive as though I knew him myself growing up.  Something I'm not so sure Sarah will be doing for poor Charlie.

No, but our Little Bee is a real story teller.  Like your family she acknowledges and recounts stories of Nkiruka any chance that she gets, whether silently or in the revelation of what happened to them before and after their encounter on the beach.

[ALF43]

 Sarah's defenses are at last broken down as she numbly and calmly reevaluates her life with and without Andrew.  Tearless, she "searches" for a physical sign of Andrew's death and wonders how will she cope?  She rubs violently at her eyes to prove to the mourners she had cared for Andrew.

Andrew was "absolutely unbearable sometimes but he was always so sensible."
That's a hell of a way to remember your husband isn't it?  yikes

Amen to Cleave's statement:  We don't have a grown up language for grief. 
How painfully well most of us have all learned that fact.

[salan]

Okay, I read the next two chapters and had nightmares!  I'll not read this book at night again.  Little Bee's story was very painful to me.  Olle, I have no problem with Little Bee's adult thinking.  She was forced to grow up rapidly on that beach in order to survive and she is a survivalist!  I love her and her story telling and the ways she imagines she would tell things to people back in her village.  I am still undecided about Sarah, but admire the fact that she accepts responsibility for taking LB in.  That couldn't have been an easy choice.

I don't see what the big deal about Charlie dressing in his power suit is.  He is just a child and his suit gives him "power", and don't we all need something  in our lives to give us power??  For a couple of years (about the same age, Charlie is), my grandson wanted to wear his Spiderman suit everywhere.  I think he went through a couple of sizes before he out-grew the need.  If you recall, he was wearing this suit even before his father killed himself.

I have a question.  How did Little Bee learn to read English?  I got the impression that her village was very primitive and there was no mention of school or teachers.  Yet, when she was stowed away on the boat to England, the captain gave her a book to read and she read it.  So....??

I think I will probably go on and read ahead.  I find that by trying to follow the schedule; the book is losing momentum for me.
Sally

[straudetwo]

Hello, everyone!

Today marks the end of our first week we've s;pent together in this discussion. Many thanks to all who joined us. Links are always valuable in providing highlights and additional information. Thank you,  Babi.

I've been offline all day, concerned about my SIL and waiting for word. Forgive me for being late catching up.

First  to Ella's, # 200.  Yes, as per the schedule,  let's go on to Chapters 4 an 5, and pick up anything  hat's unresolved and undiscussed in Chapter 3 or needs attention.

Deems 2,  Oh yes, I do agree that the girls, waiting for the cab, were not calm and collected, merely appeared to be so. According to their tradition, they had their backs turned to the approaching vehicle and spoke in whispers -- and those were obviously LB and Yevette,

Babi and Olle, my chosen field is foreign languages and linguistics. and I do  agree that there's a discernible distinction in the speech of LB on one hand, and Sarah on the other. It is clear in sentences like "The girls in my village, they would ..." , where the personal pronoun 'they' is really unnecessary. (I'll search for a quote.)

Jumping ahead to a later post, Nigeria's official language is English.  There are more than 250 ethnic tribes in the country, all with their own dialects,  and a handful of those are "recognized" alongside English.  One of those is [b]Ibo[/b] or Igbo, and that was LB's dialect.No doubt, she had a special ability,  which empowered her (remember how the the taxi company man said  on the phone "You don't sound like the others ...")/ At that time she had no "handle"on specific terms or idiomatic phrases, andhow could she.

Deb, brava for finishing the book. That is my own habit - as long as we stay within limits set by a DL. Thea second paragraph of your post is eminently worth quoting, and I wish I could but, alas, my technical skills are limited    I'll try later.

Jude, good to see you and welcome. I'm glad you felt well enough to post and hope you and your husband will fully recover soon.  Of course you're right about Charlie. As a child educator you have so much more insight than the rest of us.

Olle,  I'm so glad you are with us.  None of us really are quite sure about Sarah at this point. But there are other clues to pick up from the rest of Chapter 3 which may throw more light on important things.

May I say that I have a personal connection with Sweden. I taught myself to read and my first source was my father's newspaper, which carried a daily serial about a Sedish detective. I remember that -gatan was the equivalent of street.  Many years later I took my 5- year-old son back to Europe for an extended visit with TWA and a leg with SAS.  Before going south, we first visited friends in England, then Denmark, then got ourselves to Malmö - it was charming but too short.  Of course, that was long before the magnificent Öresund bridge that unites Denmark and Sweden was built.

Bellamarie, like you, I firmly believe that family traditions and heritage is worth being cherished and should be. After all, there is a continuum.

Just noticed, I haven't got to Sally's post.  Sorry. Will do that tomorrow,.

[Babi]

  SALLY, as Traude says, English was an official language in Nigeria, tho' I
doubt the villagers spoke it very well. It was while in detention that Little Bee
learned to speak it so well. One of the older 'girls' had told her that to make it in
England she either had to speak well or look good. With her terrible memories of what
happened to girls who looked good, she chose to learn English perfectly.

   As was noted somewhere, Nigeria and the British govt. both deny any 'oil war' took
place. I went looking for news reports on the subject and the official story is that
disaffected Nigerians had attacked oil installations. Frankly, I don't know what to
believe.

  One last note from the first three chapters.  After LB has reached London she writes of
 all it’s crowds and how she reacted.  “…when you have lost everyone, you never lose the habit of looking……  “Every face I see I am looking for them in it.”  This is so real.
  My mother died when I was 13.  She had been in the hospital for a while before she died and my brother and I were not allowed to see her. (She had polio.) Dad  decided we could not see her at the funeral; he wanted us to remember her as she had been.   So for years afterward, even tho’ I understood she was dead, I would find myself looking for her in crowds. Strange,
isn't it?

[pedln]

Babi, I agree.  There’s a lot out there on abuses, but it is hard to know who to believe.  Here are a few links.

Drill and Kill

The Nigerian government has turned a blind eye to the people's suffering, but instead has been ready, willing and able to aid western oil companies by brutally repressing those who would dare stand up for their basic human rights

Oil bandits

Blood and Oil

Rosemary, have you seen this – a BBC2 film with johdi May and Naomie Harris – political thriller set in the Niger Delta of Nigeria.

[rosemarykaye]

Hi pedln,

No I haven't seen it.  I did talk to my husband about the book (he hasn't read it).  he worked in the oil industry for 20 years (he's now moved into renewable energy), and his view is that Nigerian society is extremely violent.  It is certainly well known to be one of the worst postings, and hardly any families go - the men go by themselves if they have to.  I also know someone who is soon to finish a posting there - his wife went with him as their children are grown up and away.  She told me that no-one ever took a ground floor apartment, as they were likely to be "ramroaded" by trucks whose occupants would then ransack the house.  Westerners have to have a lot of security there. 

Whether the violence stems from the British or the Nigerians is hard for me to say - but oil has been found in other places without such atrocities being carried out.  Even here in Scotland there is quite a lot of resentment about the fact that all the oil is in the North Sea, but all the revenue goes to Westminster - Aberdeen Council receives less funding from central government than any other Scottish city - this has not led to physical violence, but then the oil is under the sea, not under people's villages, and although people up here were not rich before oil was found, they were not destitute either, and many have made money out of the oil industry - eg house prices rose dramatically and many farmers were able to sell off their steadings for conversion, etc.  My husband's view is that this is just the way Nigerian society is, but I have no way of knowing if that is correct.

Rosemary

[straudetwo]

I've just managed to lose a  very long post, Arrrrrrrggggg

It was a response to the last posts and the points raised therein.;  I was all set,  and then hit a button that destroyed an hour's work. Apologies.

Back this evening.

[Ella Gibbons]

I would imagine that the resentment, the violence, toward foreigners is long standing although the oil situation adds a tremendous pressue, an additional robbing a country of its precious resources.  Hasn't the "white man" done this to all of Africa and other countries over the years; although it is true that the country is ripe with corruption at the top thus allowing the robbery as PEDLIN posted.

Andrew's suicide is understandable, don't you agree?  He was robbed of all dignity and self respect on that beach in Africa, his manhood (for lack of a better word) was destroyed when Sarah was able to cut off her finger.  How could he live with that?  Plus he felt he was losing her love. 

Gosh, wouldn't divorce have been an answer?  I don't know.

Before Africa, Andrew wrote:

"In our small garden I have made a wild place to remind me of chaos.  Our modern lives are too ordered, too antiseptic."

Sad.

[salan]

Babi, I understand about Little Bee speaking English.  What I am wondering is how she learned to read English.  On the boat over, the captain gave her a book to read and she did.  How did she have access to reading in her village and who taught her???
Sally

[ALF43]

Sorry I've deserted today, I hurt my back in aerobics and have been on couch with heating pad all day.  It's Bill's birthday to top it off.  I will be in tomorrow. 
Traude- write all of your post on "notebook" or microsoft  word before copying it in "reply.'

[straudetwo]

Sally,  since English was the official language of Nigeria,  we can safely assume that LB and her girlfriends had a basic instruction in English, even as the daily chatter was carried on in the native dialect - Ibo,, as it turns out.  On the cargo ship LB was invisible in every sense of he word.  Only in the Detention Center did she have access to books and newspapers and really got a feel for the language. Her interest and gift for observation helped a great deal.

As she tells it, LB had a hard time in the Center at first. Plagued by nightmares and screaming, she was in the medical wing for at least 100 days, where she conceived all those possible ways to kill herself, if confronted by "the men" again. Even after that, she tells us in a flashback, she could not let go.

It puzzled her that some English words have two meanings and, sure enough, exactly that tripped her up when she spoke to the cab driver (Chapter 3).  He was offended and, driving off  
alone without the girls, muttered "Don't they teach you monkeys any manners in the jungle?" Oh my!

Ella,  I agree,  it's sad. But people anywhere tend to look at strangers, and especially  foreigners, with care, suspicion, sometimes fear, and worse.  There's a word for it : xenophobia.

Babi,  we really don't know whether there was an 'oil war' or what kind of power struggle twas happening.  The author did not "go there"--- probably for good reason. His focus may well be elsewhere, and we'll get to that soon.

Pedln, thank you for the links. As I've said before, they are invaluable. As for the question of whom to believe, who has the answer ? My own routine is to keep u p with the foreign press, in the original language; after all that keeps me "in practice".

Rosemary,  your post reminded me that several years ago I was in an internet site where other languages wee spoken.  There was a German group and the conversation was pleasant.  There was a couple from Nigeria, the wife did the posting.  One partner was Austrian, the other Swiss, their children were in boarding school in Europe.  

No one asked what they did for a living because that's simply not done. But before long it became clear that oil was was their business. They lived in a compound and took frequent trips home.  The site closed, and my Apple gave up at about the same time, and the memory died with it.  A bit of sadness  -but life goes on.

[straudetwo]

Andy , we posted within a second of each other!
 
Sorry to hear you got hurt at aerobics.  Just rest and get well. It's late in the day but please say Happy Birthday to Bill for me.

I have a few more comments on Chapter 3 tomorrow, with luck before I leave for a twice postponed appointment at the eye doctor's -- urgent by now. This time I have someone to take me there and bring me back, courtesy of the local Council on Aging.  All these years I've driven there, but last time I was nearly blind and felt guilty for being a menace on the road. Not again!

Take good care !

[bellamarie]

Well I finally found the time to read the assigned chapters 4 & 5, and they were very enlightening.  I must say Sarah truly becomes more understandable and likeable once you see and feel her emotions and her act of bravery.  I like how Cleave eases us into the friendship the two of them are forming.  Little Bee seems to have a way with Charlie and knows just when to step in and help when Sarah finds herself unable to.  


Babi~ No, I don't think you looking for your mother in the faces of others after her death was strange at all.  I too found myself seeing and searching in others faces for my mother after she passed on.  When my Mom was dying she was in the hospital from early Feb to March 22 and I spent every single day there beside her bed.  I promised her no matter what she would never be alone.  My children did not get a chance to see her in those last weeks and I think it was best since the last time they spent with her she was smiling and joking with them at her house.  So their last memories of their grandma are happy ones.  Its funny how Sarah was on auto pilot and called Andrew's phone when she got the call from the nursery.  That so reminded me of the days after my Mom was gone how I would wake up and feel disoriented being home in my own bed and not in the hospital lounge.  It takes awhile for your mind to readjust to the loss of a loved one.  

So it is finally revealed what happened to Nkiruka and that she indeed is dead.  I was amazed at the strength of Nkiruka clinging to her faith.  I can only imagine what comfort it provided her while she was being raped and killed. How sad these two chapters are, yet at the end of chapter five I have hope for Sarah, Little Bee and Charlie.

I can't allow myself to comment on the oil war, government involvement etc.  Just this past summer we had that horrible oil spill in the gulf and it seemed like our government had a hard time coming out and demand BP to take accountability and act faster.  Seems it was reported this was a disaster in the making and could have been prevented had they not wanted to cut cost and save money.  I have lost so much confidence in governments that I personally just can't tolerate discussing how our's and other countries government cover up and deny their actions for the sake of oil/money/power.

Andy~ I hope you are feeling better soon.  I joined the YMCA a week ago and went to work out and after doing the treadmill I decided to approach what I now call the "killer Machine" the eliptical.  For three days I could barely walk,the pain was unbearable.  But now I am up and ready to tackle it again....lolol  My thoughts are with you. 

Ciao for now~

[Babi]

   I know the feeling, TRUADE, tho' I've never had an hour's work destroyed. My sympathies.

  There is no question the 'white man' has a long an inglorious history of enriching
himself at the expense of others, ELLA. However, I believe in most cases the ruling
governments of Africa are really bad about the 'in' tribes trying to take it all
with little regard for the rest of the country. There seems as yet little sense of
themselves as the people of a nation; the tribe still seems to be the primary unit.

  About Little Bee's reading, SALLY, I don't remember any specific explanation.
As I recall, reading the book on the ship was a struggle for her but she had little
else to do and persevered.

 (aerobics, ALF? Gee, you still do that? MARIE, do approach the 'killer machine'
with caution. Obviously it's using a different set of muscles than you're used to.)

  We are getting better insights into Sarah.  “Because this is the thing., with being lovers.  It’s not like being married. To remain in the game, one has to be considerate. One has to acknowledge a certain right-to-life of the other.”    ??  I would have said that was true of marrige also.
  As a widow….”It’s the way people will always look at me now, I suppose,  as a foreigner in this country of my heart that I should never have come to.”   She is a proud woman; she finds pity hard to endure.  (It's a beautiful line, tho'; a bow to the author.)

[ALF43]

 Good morning all, I am up and taking nourishment.   
Unfortunately, the desire to eat is one thing that never leaves me.  Yes, Babi, I still do aerobics and tai chi, sometimes deep water aerobics, BUT the problem is, I wanted to take off ALL of those lbs. that I gained over the holidays off, in one week, so I pushed it.
I'll just back off for a couple of days and stay with my "bed buddy" heating pad.

Bella- I am pleased to read that you found the next two chapters enlightening.  We have lost many readers due to the explanation of what horrors LBee and her sister endured under the corruption and mismanagement of Nigeria.  They not only institutionalized its people, like Little Bee, but they managed to institutionalize democracy.
Now, they claim Nigeria’s economy is one of the fastest growing in the world and is the second largest in Africa. Nigeria has the highest population of all African countries and is the eighth most populous in the world.
Unfathomable that such Herculean atrocities could have produced growth, isn't it?

[ALF43]

WAVE OF VIOLENCE- from a Jan. 06, 2011 article.

Nigeria has been shaken by violence in recent weeks, including a New Year's eve bomb blast on the edge of an army barracks in Abuja a week after a series of blasts and subsequent clashes killed 80 in the central city of Jos.
Homemade bombs hit a political rally in Bayelsa state, next to Delta, on December 29 and there are fears that the oil region could flare up again ahead of the April polls.
Jonathan is the first Nigerian president from the Ijaw ethnic group, the largest in the Niger Delta, and his failure to win the ruling party primaries next week or the April polls could trigger unrest in his home region.

Traude- I understand your reluctance in putting trust in the oil companies.  Will there ever be peace?

[straudetwo]

Hello,
The eye exam is over but the long-lasting effect of the dilating drops is just now lifting, too slowly.
There's only so much I can do, and a shut-eye is really my only option at this time.

I feel terrible about being inactive  abd therefore send instead a link to the mp of Africa.

http[://www.africaguide.afmap.htom/

he map is interesting anad very helpful because the countries are identified in colors.
What this map does NOT show is the heartbreaking, tempting closeness to the European continent -- a distance which thousands of Africans have crossed, looking for a better life.
Truly a modern migration.

Will be looking for proer geographic info, and be back when I can see again.

[ALF43]

We will be right here Traude.   I hope that we get some of our posters back and see if they can get past all of these atrocities, as LittleBee has done.

What's with this Lawrence guy in this story?  So he's a lover- big deal that he "has to get used to" Sarah's list of problems.
Babi-  

“Because this is the thing., with being lovers.  It’s not like being married. To remain in the game, one has to be considerate. One has to acknowledge a certain right-to-life of the other.”    Huh??  I would have said that was true of marrige also.

Reading that, I too felt she should afforded Andrew that same courtesy.

[Ella Gibbons]

ALF, speaking of atrocities, America is just as guilty.  We have assassinated several of our excellent leaders in the past fifty years; the two Kennedy brothers, Martin Luther King.  President Reagan was shot at, others I cannot remember and, now again, a young, lovely member of Congress! 

Violence in America, one doesn't necessarily have to travel much further afield to find it. 

Of course, it's in literature, it's in Africa, it's in evil people everywhere! 

One of themes in this book, to me, is the relationships - between Sarah and Bee, of course.  Between Sarah and Andrew, between Sarah and her little boy. 

[bellamarie]

Ella~ Yes indeed we need to only look outside our back door so to speak to witness the violence and injustice right here in our own country.  The tragedy in Arizona is being overshadowed by the politics surrounding it and I think it is so very sad our government and media can not take the time to STOP the rethoric long enough to mourn the deaths of these six innocent people.  A few seconds of silence, and then back to blaming and pointing fingers at individuals and tv and radio shows for the sick act this person committed. 

When I think of the cults that rape the very young females and make them submissive to their brainwashing it reminds me a bit of the detention center Little Bee was in.  Its just a different form of captivity.

I so agree with you that this story seems to be so much about Sarah and Little Bee's friendship.  

Andy~ As horrific as the truths are as to what happened on the beach, it brought such a new light to Sarah as a person.  Before knowing of her heroic act and her true care and concern for Little Bee and her older sister, I was thinking of Sarah as a self centered, highly intelligent, business, no nonsense woman and adulterer.  These two chapters let her become vulnerable, sympathetic, and a bit  multidimensional.  I'm anxious to see where this story goes, I'm not going any where.  You take it easy, I sense with all your motivation and activity those lbs will be gone before spring arrives.

Babi~I don't give up easily, I will indeed approach that killer machine and in a few weeks I will conquer it!

Traude~ Good luck with them drops.

Ciao for now~

[rosemarykaye]

Good morning,

I have just whizzed through chapters 4 & 5 before getting up - nearly had a panic attack when saw it was 7.39am and Madeleine still in bed! 

These chapters are better then the first three, in that they do round people out a bit.  Lawrence is, IMO, a complete pain in the neck, who thinks he's cool with all his "I wasn't up to a "proper" job" nonsense.  Being a naive innocent  - at least by these people's standards - I have no idea if they would have got it on (as I believe the saying once was) right there in his office, but it does seem a bit incredible to me - we don't even see him locking the door!  Lawrence is a shallow, self-interested man, and at that point Sarah is equally self-interested; she's bored with her marriage, she feels dominated by her husband, so instead of widening her career or her other interests, she starts an affair with the first man she comes across.  The Home Office is of course the government department that makes decisions about asylum seekers, etc - I can't remember if this becomes useful to the plot later on, or whether it is some sort of metaphor - will have to wait and see (at least my sieve like brain means I won't give anything away!)

The story of what happened on the beach is of course terrible; my problem with it is that I just find the plot devices so creaky - honestly, a Times journalist would never have gone to any part of Nigeria on holiday - "we thought our destination was not in the trouble zone" - they didn't even bother to make sure?  The place is patrolled by armed guards and they think it's just for show?  I see that one of the reviewers on Amazon has said that the exchange of the finger for the child just would not have happened - the killers would have just killed them all - why not?

When Little Bee tells Sarah what happened, she says "It isn't your fault" - and to a certain extent she is right.  What happened to Andrew and Sarah is their fault, but what happened to the girls is not - at least not directly (by which I mean that it is only their fault in that they are Westerners).  Sarah now thinks she can do something to help Little Bee - again, she is still living in the "we are from the UK and therefore we are untouchable" mode that she and Andrew displayed on the beach.  Because she works for a magazine and has contacts, she immediately assumes that she can protect Little Bee; again, I find this hard to believe, as our newspapers are always running stories about refugees and asylum seekers being repatriated.  Sometimes a whole community, or a church, etc, opposes the deportation and battles with the Home Office - they very rarely win.  How can Sarah be so well educated and professional and not know any of this?

As for Charlie, I can't help it!!  I find him one of the most unconvincing children in literature, although his scene at the nursery is more realistic - esp the nursery woman banging on about her "policies".

One last thing - would anyone with a pre-school child still have an open pond in their garden in modern England?  Is that meant to be a signpost for Sarah's negligence, or just local detail?  The people I know with young children are manic about ponds (and prob with good reason as children have drowned in them).  When I was a child, one of my friends had a stream at the bottom of her garden, in which we played unsupervised and very happily, but I bet that wouldn't happen now.

Well, I am sticking with you on this book - though maybe you wish I wasn't? 

R

[Babi]

Ah, ALF, it's a terrible thing, but the pounds never come off as
fast as they went on. So unfair.

 Take your time, TRAUDE. We all know how these things go. Plans
are made with no guarantees against future disarrangement. Your
health is the most important thing.

 Personally, ROSEMARY, I'm very glad you're sticking with us.  It's so
helpful having the viewpoint of someone much closer to the scene and
the people represented in Little Bee.  I thought Sarah's influence would
be helpful to Little Bee. Your post made it clear that she is being overly
optimistic.  Which, of course, worries me for LB.
  Remember the gray flag?  LB’s image of a flag for refugees was so poignant and perfect.   A gray rag of any kind, tied to a
Broom handle.  What could better convey the sense of  hopelessness ,  helplessness and poverty?  I am fervently hoping this book ends on a
better note than her return to that.


 

[Ella Gibbons]

Good afternoon to all of you!

Yes, do stay, Rosemary!

ALF, I have a lb problem too - the holidays; my sister staying with me - we gorged outselves a bit.  We were penny stupid and pound foolish.   I'm trying to be hungry.

But must a book be so real, the characters doing the "conventional" thing.  Going on holiday to Tuscany, wouldn't that be boring?  Sarah wanted something different for her vacation, Andrew seemed to go along.  I'll have to check the book, wasn't he the journalist; one that should be abreast of violence here and there.

And, Rosemary, of course, you are right, why didn't the Nigerian men shoot them all on the beach?  Could have been they wanted to torture one of them, see how they could take it or maybe the soldiers were coming?  Who knows?  But the story leads us into the characterization doesn't it?  Sarah, for all her selfishness and total irresponsibility at times, was courageous on the beach.  She got herself and her husband out of that situation.  I would not have done it, I would have froze in terror!  End of story.


Babi, I was conscious of the gray, LB's gray,  in the book also, but she keeps remembering the see-through plastic bag with the yellow inside; perhaps that is symbolic of hope for her, sunshine.

[ALF43]

Ella-

Violence in America, one doesn't necessarily have to travel much further afield to find it.

Yes, I can not disagree with your assessment of atrocities being global.
Like pain it is all encompassing.
Pain is  distributed to each of our characters in this story, isn't it?   
Charlie witnesses his first taste of pain losing a parent and soiling his batman costume in “gray mud” after searching for his father, in the grave.   
Babi- reminded us of the hopelessness of gray.

Remember the gray flag?  LB’s image of a flag for refugees was so poignant and perfect.   A gray rag of any kind, tied to a Broom handle.  What could better convey the sense of  hopelessness ,  helplessness and poverty?

 
Sarah- now alone, frantic and hopelessly saddened by the death of her husband who slowly suffered the agony of depression to the point of suicide; and our protagonist, LittleBee, now an orphan, whose entire family was wiped out by greed and corruption.
Physical and mental agony of  these characters is heart-wrenching and yet while being tormented with their individual pain they choose to bind together.

[ALF43]

I agree Rosemary that these chapters do round the characters out a bit.  Lawrence is an ass- said and accepted!
You ask:

The exchange of the finger for the child just would not have happened - the killers would have just killed them all - why not?

I need to research that a bit.  I remember reading it and thinking the "general", once an engineer (wasn't he?)  had a stroke of humanity wash over him and decided instead of killing them on the beach he would play with them.  He wanted that middle finger from Andrew because all of his life "the white man had been giving him the finger."  It's a play on words here, I think.

I love different viewpoints but I truly can not answer nor explain the "pond" business in the story.  I don't know anything about gardens nor ponds in England.  Gay where are you??  She'll be in to enlighten us, I hope.

Remember, this was a FREEBIE when they chose Nigeria.  Fools, I agree but hey- what the hey?  It's free.

[bellamarie]

My problem with the scene on the beach is how Andrew seemed to think he could act arrogant looking down the sharp blade of a machete, on foreign soil.  I kept asking myself what person in there right mind would even think of challenging a pack of ruthless soldiers on a deserted beach?  The entire conversation between Andrew and the guard insisting they go back to the compound for their own safety frustrated me.  "The white man said."Oh don't give us the big performance.  Just tell us how much you want.  Come on.  My wife is sick to the gills of being cooped up in that f---in compound.  What will you take to let us go for a walk on our own?  One dollar?" Then they go on and on about the money amount.  I found myself going...REALLY? Then Andrew says, "I have my editor telling me what's best for me fifty-one weeks of the year.  I didn't come here to have anyone edit my holiday."  

The entire beach scene seemed a bit contrite to me.  Sarah deciding to cut off her finger was heroic and yet her character prior to this is so uncharacteristic of her actions then.  I feel the author has got me going back and forth where Sarah is concerned.  

The entire conversation with Lawrence makes no sense to me.  Its like let's throw in an affair to show the marriage was on shaky grounds, yet she tells Andrew on the beach "I love you, Andrew.  I'm pleased we came away. I'm so sorry I let you down.  It won't happen again."  "Really.  I don't love Lawrence. How could I?  Let's make a fresh start."  Yet, when she talks to Lawrence its as if she is clingy and he is the one who is not in it for anything but an affair.   To be perfectly honest I am struggling with attaching  myself to any of the characters except for Charlie.  I have raised three children, (two sons) and was in education for K-Jr High for 15 yrs prior to owning my in-home day care for 12 yrs, for me the author is right on target where Charlie is concerned.  
It's the adults in the story I am finding hard to believe. I keep hearing my friend saying, "It's only a book Marie, it's only a book."

Ciao for now~  

[serenesheila]

I have been in bed with the flu for 8 days.  As a result, I am in the middle of chapter 3.  It is difficult to concentrate.  Tonight, I spent catching uip with the posts.  But, I stopped reading at Jude's post of January 8th.  I will resume reading the posts once I have read chapters 3 & 4.

The first 2 1/2 chapters were a bit confusing for me, too.  I found chapter one the more confusing.  It took me a while to become comfortable with LB's way of speaking.  I had not realized that English is the primary language of Nigeria.  Reading all of your posts, has helped me to better understand what I have read.

Sheila

[rosemarykaye]

Sheila - get well soon  .  Lots of people here have been ill over the holidays, such a shame.  I do hope you are feeling better.

Bellamarie - I agree with all you say about the beach scene, and I also understand what you say about Charlie - I have only got experience of my own and my friends' children, and it is some years now since I had a 4 year old, so thank you for your insight into that.  What do you think about the pond?  Parents here are paranoid about them (even my parents covered in the pond in their garden when I was born - and that was a LONG time ago!).

Alf43 - you are right, I had forgotten that bit about the leader being an engineer who had studied in the UK.  I'm sure the finger thing is a play on words, I just wasn't convinced that it would actually have happened (but then, as we've discussed elsewhere, the plot - such as it is - in the Ladies of Covington books wouldn't have happened either (sadly), and I don't have too many problems with that, so maybe I should just stop being so cynical  - I think it's just that I find Cleave's tone awfully preachy at times.

I still don't think any sane current affairs journalist would have taken a holiday, even a free one, in Nigeria.  Certainly no-one from an oil-based community like ours would have, but maybe I am just too used to Aberdeen?

Rosemary

[bookad]

I think people act/react in all sorts of unrealistic ways --the soldiers on the beach could have been tired of  their duties of killing ....??were they Nigerians, I thought they were...were there underlying empathise for their kind, but money speaks and then these English people with their pompous behaviour...lets see what guts they are made of  might be his thoughts

-while I was in Brownsville, there were some horrible things going on in Metamoros, Mexico just 5 miles away...yet I was hearing of people still going to Garcia's for entertainment (just a 2 minute walk into Mexico from the custom's bridge), or to Progreso, Mexico despite the fact there is a soldier with machine gun standing behind sandbags up to his waist just as you enter the city---the young man, who chose to waive his inner caution, even with his wife trying to dissuade him and they chose to zip across the river to see a submerged church for something to do, at the cost of his life (this was drug cartel patrolled area,  just inside the Mexico border)--I believe we get caught up in the it would/could never happen to me-- syndrome-----but I think if a guard came up to me with a machine gun on his shoulder I would not try to dispute his suggestions,after all it is his country

Deb