Author Topic: Classics Book Club, The  (Read 492781 times)

Babi

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #760 on: March 02, 2011, 08:46:43 AM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.



Now reading:


March 4---Book IV: Helen, Proteus and the Trojan Horse  


The procession of the Trojan Horse
Giovanni Domenico Tiepolo
National Gallery



The Abduction of Helen
Guido Reni (1575 - 1642)

  
Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny  


The Trojan Horse
Raoul Lefevre
1464

Useful Links:

1. Critical Analysis: Free SparkNotes background and analysis  on the Odyssey
2. Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:
3. Initial Points to Watch For: submitted by JudeS
4. Maps:
Map of the  Voyages of Odysseus
Map of Voyages in order
Map of Stops Numbered
Our Map Showing Place Names in the Odyssey

Paris leads Helen away
Attic red figure kylix
Makron
480 BC
Antikenmuseen, Berlin



The Horse entering the city of Troy
Unattributed
Early 17th century


   
Off the cuff? I think Penelope is 'in charge' in Ithaca. But
being a woman, she can't arm herslf and her servants and drive off the suitors. She must use tactics women have always used against the more dangerous male...subtlety, deception, feminine wiles.
  Having her deception re. the weaving discovered is going to seriously
jeopardize her defenses.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #761 on: March 02, 2011, 03:12:52 PM »
So there are two "mentors"? Hmmm. I'll have to check The Iliad.

And the geography of the trip  to Sparta is wrong? Not too surprising. It's hard for us to appreciate howlittle it was possible to know about geography then.

bookad

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #762 on: March 02, 2011, 03:47:27 PM »
question:
is the feast for Poseidon first paragraph ch 3 the same feast as in chapter 1?  ....and I find it interesting how much sacrifice it will take to make the him happy.....' there are 9 settlements each with 500 holdings, and each holding must sacrifice 9 bulls' !!!

a number of times the use of 'but' instead of 'and'

E. V. Rieu--But the men lifted he heifer's head from the trodden earth and held it up while the captain Peisistratus cut its throat.

I have found this a number of times thru this translation, the use of 'but' where it feels they mean 'and', but is like a pause or sudden switch of direction...but the words lead in the direction the talk was taking

I'm wondering why the translation would be that way....the translation to our english would lead a 'and' to be inserted; but did the Greeks feel each bit of talk even with same subject matter was another thread of thought, hence the 'but'

Deb

To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #763 on: March 02, 2011, 03:54:38 PM »
 ;)  :D  ;) the translator just did not use word - word keeps telling me to change my 'but' to However or Nevertheless --
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #764 on: March 02, 2011, 06:21:05 PM »
word keeps telling me to change my 'but' to However or Nevertheless


Barbara :)

Deb, good question. I can't find the first sacrifice of Poseidon, was it in Ithaca? And the second one in Pylos with Nestor? I found the sacrifices hard to get by but they sure did practice them, the Ara Pacis in Rome is full of bulls and horns, etc.



E. V. Rieu--But the men lifted he heifer's head from the trodden earth and held it up while the captain Peisistratus cut its throat.


This is line 498 (453 in Murray)  in book III, Lombardo has "Then the men...."

Our new Dr. Murray has it on line 453, and he also has Then the men...

Butler has "then they" and really Butler is quite hard to read in these scenes, you'd think Bacchantes were jumping round in an orgy or something.

So maybe that's a Rieu-ism? What do the rest of  you have?

I really like the way we can compare translations by the line numbers,  it makes it fun and easy to literally get on the same page.


____________________________________

Ginny,   reading the familiar story in English has been a wonderful experience so far.  I greatly enjoy the Lombardo translation. It is melodic and flows beautifully.  

I am glad you like it,  Traude, I like it, too. I agree, it appears Mentor was left behind and  is actually IN Ithaca, is that what you all get, he was left behind as tutor and he's AT the suitors meeting or at least he  is in Lombardo,  (244, 224 in Murray) "Then up rose Mentor..." so he's there, giving a  speech.

Then Athena appears as Mentor to go on the trip with Telemachus,
She looked like Mentor now..." Book 2, Lombardo 425....Murray 400...

So for travel she looks like Mentor but he's back with  Penelope, is this what you all get?

But now Babi asks:
Is this some sort of godly
'occupation' of a mortal?


I'm thinking not. I'm thinking this is not old Mentor but just  a....hmmmmm....what do you all think? Not old Mentor possessed but  a new "person" who looks like him.

___________________________________
Roshanna Rose:

Geographically, Pylos is closer to Ithaca than Sparta by ship.  Sparta is not a port and is quite a long way inland.  So visiting Pylos first would just be easier.

In reality Sparta sits in very rugged terrain and it is doubtful that there was a road in the Bronze Age.

This journey is an impossible one. Telemachus and Pisistratus would have been obliged to drive over the Taygetus range, over which there has never yet been a road for wheeled vehicles. It is plain therefore that the audience for whom the "Odyssey" was written was one that would be unlikely to know anything about the topography of the Peloponnese, so that the writer might take what liberties he chose.


What a fabulous fact! Thank you for bringing it here and the link, who knew? I ran immediately to the maps in the heading and stopped short at "Delos" being the first stop on the map till I realized (DUH) that the maps show Odysseus's journey, not that of  Telemachus, we've got two sailors here.

Neato!

hahaha Murray #3 or is it #4? hahaha: I suspect it must be Ginny's old friend Tension--this time among the suitors.  He's a very popular character in this book I think, so far he beats love all to pieces. :)


I am bemused with all the Murrays in Classics and elsewhere, Gum, that's pretty amazing. I love the names of some of these classicists too, Augustus is a fitting name for a baby who will grow up to be a great translator of Greek.

Barbara, what a provocative  statement! I've thought of it ever since I saw it!

Holy Hannah are we going to revisit Luther and try for the definitive decision on free will versus predestination as ordained this time by the gods rather than by "the" God of Abraham??!!??

This blew me away. Is the situation we have here the same thing? Free will? Predestination? Gods squabbling and quarreling, taking sides, being spiteful,  playing dice for men's souls figuratively  and literally taking things in their own hands, appearing  in person to make sure what they want is done?

Let's discuss this. How do you all see these "gods?"  This is what I wanted to talk about earlier.  Achilles for instance knew he would not come out alive, he'd been told so. So what choice did he have? He did make some. What feeling do you get so far conveyed in this about the relationship of the ancient Greeks to the gods?

JoanK, I love this:


" Whether the weak link or the heavy load is called the cause of the chain breaking always depends on which one you'd rather fix."


Choice again. CHOICE for Penelope, choice for  Telemachus, choice for Odysseus?  We don't know, he's not on stage. Maybe instead of asking who is in charge of the palace we should ask who has the most choices here and what do they do with them?

Those maps in the heading are not good enough for inland stuff, but I've got one I'll put here and we can see the old place names more clearly. Since Odysseus went to so many  places, you have to back way off, let's get one closer up. Hold on.

What,  by the way, did the great Greek sailors use as navigational equipment?







ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #765 on: March 02, 2011, 06:43:26 PM »
Nothing like a few good maps to confuse the issue!

Here is Ithaca, to the left, in red. It's on an island.  Sparta here is in green and is  inland and as  Roshannarose said, there's a major mountain range between it and Ithaca. Troy (Illium) is in blue in Turkey up there towards Constantinople.





Missing is Pylos. If somebody can make this out, where would we put it on our map above which we can edit?

There's THIS one (I know we found it before but now there appears ...well...look....



OK now there's Pylos and it appears Nestor's Palace is NOT in Pylos? It's up the coast a bit? See it in red?

Where should we put Pylos on the black and white map? Down there in that kind of dog leg thing to the left of Sparta?

bookad

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #766 on: March 02, 2011, 09:07:03 PM »
Ginny--book 1 from my copy R.V. Rieu
Quote
   Poseidon, however, was now gone on a visit to the distant Ethiopians, the furthest outposts of mankind, half of whom live where the Sun goes down, and half where he rises.  He had gone to accept a sacrifice of bulls and rams, and there he sat and enjoyed the pleasures of the feast. Meanwhile the rest of the gods had assembled in the palace of Olympian Zeus, and the father of Men and gods opened a discussion among them.

Athene uses this meeting that is without the presence of Poseidon to bring up the fact of Odysseus needing some help to return to his home and loved ones.

chapter 3 giving feast to Poseidon is in Pylos where the sacrifices were being offered; guess i answered my own question--they couldn't have been the same place could they!!??

**by the way my edition of R. V. Rieuis translated in paragraphs; and i use my edition of Lattimorewhich has lines numbered to keep track by correlating more or less in the Rieu edition so i can refer back and forth

such an interesting discussion-is this how it was in college or university when taking Homer studies??  I can't imagine trying to read this book without all the insight, and 'come on you can do it' from everyone!!

Deb________________________
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #767 on: March 02, 2011, 09:44:54 PM »
Ginny - I got out the modern day map I used on my trip in 2004.  It has archaeological sites marked on it.  A microscope would help!

OK - So if you draw a straight line from Sparta to the extreme west coast, then go south, approximately two thirds down you have the location of Pylos.  Have a look at a big map of modern day Greece to make my instructions clearer.  My map doesn't have a kilometre scale but I am guessing that Pylos is only about 30km from the bottom of that little peninsula (more like a protuberance) that is located in the Ionian Sea.

The sea voyage from Ithaca to Pylos would be a lovely journey today (dependent on Poseidon's mood, of course).

Even today the east coast of Lakonia (Sparta) is barely inhabited.  It would be fabulous to go there.  A part of Greece rarely visited by tourists.  If you check Sparta out on a big map you can see why, apart from their legendary fighting ability, no one much bothered them, even in Sparti the city.  

It is quite surprising when you see how close Crete is to the southernmost point of the Peloponnese.  The trip would probably not have been so arduous, as far as distance is concerned, for the Mycenaeans who would have gone through Sparta, assuming Menelaus was still king of Sparta.  Agamemnon and his army would have been able to pass freely through to Crete.  (This is conjecture on my behalf)Agamemnon and his soldiers were the people who were instrumental in bringing about the downfall of the Minoan empire.  The final straw for Crete would have been the tsunami caused by the volcanic eruption on Thera.  The tsunami and volcanic dust would have wrought havoc on Crete, and is supposed to have had the same effect on many areas of southern Greece.  Thera is also called Thira in some ancient texts, but nowadays is called Santorini.  The most beautiful island I have ever visited 8)

Nice detailed link of the area.  Pylos is named Pilos on this map.  Click on map to enlarge.

www.greeklandscapes.com/images/maps/greecemaps/gr_tc_01.jpg
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

Dana

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #768 on: March 02, 2011, 11:43:25 PM »
....regarding the use of "but " or "and"
Greek uses the conjuctions "men" and "de" very often, meaning "on the one hand", "on the other hand" .  They are often untranslateable or redundant to English.  "de" can be translated "and", or "but".  
In the example quoted "men" and "de" are in fact used.....on the one hand men (guys that is !) held up the heifer's head, on the other hand P. cut her throat.  In translating you could miss then out, or use either "and" or "but".  Fitzgerald uses "but".....he seems to be emphasising the contrast between the heifer's actually being dead (her "spirit failed") BUT they  held her up as if still alive

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #769 on: March 03, 2011, 01:31:19 AM »
ah so - thanks Dana - what a great boon to us to have those of you who know Greek to share your knowledge - seriously - this is a wonderful addition - interesting how sentence structure in translation can be altered so easily -

When it comes to symbolism my trusty J.C.Cooper An Illustrated... says - Sacrifice: the restoration of primordial unity, reuniting that which is scattered in manifestation. As all creation implies sacrifice it is the death-life, birth and rebirth cycle, so that sacrifice is equated with creation, and identifies man with aspects of the cosmos.

Human sacrifice implied a atonement for hubris, the overweening pride of man, and a blood offering to the gods. Kings were sacrificed ritually as they were regarded as the bringers of fertility to the land as initiating irrigation works which brought the fertilizing and life-giving water. When the king's fertility waned the land and the people also suffered, hence his sacrifice to the Earth Mother Goddess to restore virility in the new king. The sacrifice took place at the death of the old year, the time of the twelve days of chaos before the rebirth of the sun and the new year.

Later a substitute or scapegoat was offered in place of the king. In animal sacrifice the head represents the dawn, the eye the sun, the breath the wind, the back the sky, the belly the air, the under-belly the earth. In sacrifice the sacrificer and the sacrificed became one with each other an the universe, microcosm and macrocosm meet and attain unity.

The Ram Virility; the masculine generative force; creative energy; procreative power; hence its association with sun and sky gods as the renewal of solar energy. Greek: Sacred to Zeus/Sabazios as the ram god; fertility; generative power. Sacred to Dionysos as generator; the ram of Mendes was sacred to Pan In Cyprus the ram was associated with Aphrodite.

The  spiral of the ram's horns is used as a thunder symbol and can be connected with both sun gods and moon goddesses. The ram is pre-eminently a sacrificial animal.

Blood   The life principle; strength, the rejuvenating force, hence blood sacrifice. The red, solar energy. Greek  Drinking blood is usually symbolic of enmity, but it can also absorb the power of the foe and so render him harmless after death.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

kidsal

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #770 on: March 03, 2011, 03:37:48 AM »
Navigation:  Line 269, Book IV discusses the use of the stars for navitgation.  They also probably stayed close to shore much of the time.

rosemarykaye

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #771 on: March 03, 2011, 05:59:43 AM »
Kidsal - you've probably told us before, but which canem are we cave-ing?  Just wondered   :)

Rosemary

Babi

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #772 on: March 03, 2011, 08:39:58 AM »
 Homer does give a nod to the difficulty of the geography. He
writes that the duo "by vales and sharp ravines in Lakedaimon
the travellers drove..."  After looking at the map GINNY found
for us, I considered that the trip only took two days. I wonder
if the site of Menelaos beautiful home was simply in the foothills
at the beginning of those mountains, but still a part of Sparta?

 I think one thing we should remember about these mass sacrifices
is that only a part of the beef went on the altar. The rest was
roasted to feed the celebrating crowd.  Think 'holiday' and
'barbecue'.
     I hadn't noticed the 'but' vs. 'and', BOOKAD. In this
particular case I assumed there was some religious significance
to keeping the heifer's head from touching the earth during the
sacrifice. I'll have to keep my eyes open to the 'but/and' usage.

  Another reference to 'minstrel', this time to a "holy minstrel".  Anybody know what a 'holy minstrel' is?

 The the big surprise for me, in Book Four, is that Helen is back home
with Menelaus and enjoying all the privileges of her position. I really had
no clear idea what happened to Helen after the fall of Troy, but I didn't
really expect her husband to welcome her home. 
  But then I learned that Helen is supposed to be a daughter of Zeus.
Well, that would put the matter in a different light, wouldn't it?  I imagine
a man would put up with a good deal to remain Zeus' son-in-law!  Even
Helen herself describes her actions of the past as "the wanton that I was".
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #773 on: March 03, 2011, 09:05:04 AM »
Barb - I wear a a Greek torc with rams' head as the finials.  I bought it in Olympia.  It is a beautiful piece of hand made jewellery 18kt gold.  It is a bracelet, not a neckpiece.  The ram does have a great deal of significance to the Greeks it is true.  I was told when I bought my torc/torque that the ram's head was the symbol of power.  It is also the symbol of Jason and the Argonauts search for the Golden Fleece.  Later in Greece is was the symbol of the battering ram, and its terrible force.  If you know anything about Keltic customs and religion you will know that the torc was only worn by those who were kings and/aristocracy.  I didn't buy it for its historical significance, byut for its beauty and personal appeal.  Greece and the Keltoi have a connection through the supposed fact that Aeneas settled in England after the sack of Troy.  There is a slight problem with the dating, but it is worth a look/search, although many writers/chroniclers say it is all hearsay. 

The spiral has been an integral part of Greek art since the Bronze Age. 

My link for the map seems to have gone awry.  My advice is to just go to www.greeklandscapes.com  and find your way around the site.
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #774 on: March 03, 2011, 09:06:22 AM »
Deb, thank you. I found it.   Poseidon, however, was now gone on a visit to the distant Ethiopians, the furthest outposts of mankind, half of whom live where the Sun goes down, and half where he rises.  He had gone to accept a sacrifice of bulls and rams, and there he sat and enjoyed the pleasures of the feast.

I agree with you,  I think this is in two separate places, I wonder why this is mentioned. They do credit Homer with these gods, at least he and Hesiod are the earliest mention of them, so it's fascinating to see what was thought.


such an interesting discussion-is this how it was in college or university when taking Homer studies??  I can't imagine trying to read this book without all the insight, and 'come on you can do it' from everyone!!


I am so glad you are enjoying this, I think we're in the hardest part, like jumping into a frozen stream in January, so much to get used to, fast! But once there and the background, thanks to the excellent participants here, explained (or as well as anybody could), why it's clear sailing from now on.

I want to understand in this next bit how Helen could simply go off and enjoy self. Can't wait for Friday, I love reading something  which so influences our lives today, and which, in addition, has  some depth and meat on it in cheerful company.


such an interesting discussion-is this how it was in college or university when taking Homer studies??


I don't know! Speaking personally, I honestly don't recall reading the Odyssey in college!!  I didn't take  Greek. I felt odd  and somewhat defensive about it for years, but at the time (and now)   Latin Majors actually had all they could do to do the Latin, much less  dabble in Greek. There are actually enough Latin courses required  to choke a horse and more than fulfill a requirement. I actually looked recently out of curiosity at the requirements now for a Latin major. ( I am wiling to bet less then 1 % of those currently teaching Latin anywhere are  Latin majors).  I already had 8 years of French, so the second language was no issue.  

The Latin Major then and now might have been  as scarce as hen's teeth, but the Classics  Major was much more common, he did a little Latin and Greek and related culture and history, AND archaeology.  I used to think of this major,  dismissively, as  "Jack of all Trades, Master of None," how ignorant I was!  I'd now love a course in ancient Archaeology!!!!  Or Greek. You can never know enough!   Barbara Patla, our former Greek Instructor,  now unfortunately  deceased,  said with Athenaze anybody can teach themselves Ancient Greek; someday I hope to have the time to give it a whirl. In my old age, as Cicero said.

But I did take Greek Literature in Translation which was required,  and remember none of it. Do any of you have any experience in Homer courses in college? Either in the original or in translation?

___________________

RR:
It is quite surprising when you see how close Crete is to the southernmost point of the Peloponnese.  The trip would probably not have been so arduous, as far as distance is concerned, for the Mycenaeans who would have gone through Sparta, assuming Menelaus was still king of Sparta.  Agamemnon and his army would have been able to pass freely through to Crete.  (This is conjecture on my behalf

I was actually shocked when we took a ferry to Crete to find out this same thing: how close it was and how NOT far from Africa Crete was! I made all kinds of plans, wonderful trip.

I can't get the map to show in your link, is there another one? I want to fix our map to show all the places! Thank you for it.

________
Dana, I agree with Barbara, it's so helpful  to have people here who can read ancient  Greek! Thank you for that explanation of the and/ but thing. Everything I have says "then."

_______________
Barbara, these are good points!

As all creation implies sacrifice it is the death-life, birth and rebirth cycle, so that sacrifice is equated with creation, and identifies man with aspects of the cosmos.

Human sacrifice implied a atonement for hubris, the overweening pride of man, and a blood offering to the gods.
The hubris or pride of mortals is a BIG theme in the ancient Greek gods, I wonder why, offhand? Why that one trait particularly?


Blood   The life principle; strength, the rejuvenating force, hence blood sacrifice. The red, solar energy. Greek  Drinking blood is usually symbolic of enmity, but it can also absorb the power of the foe and so render him harmless after death.



This last one explains why the Romans thought that the ghosts of the dead preferred blood to drink and why they brought wine (I guess as a symbolic blood)  to the tombs, even had shunts so they could pour it in. This Roman tradition of gathering at the tombs and eating dinners, etc.,  is still followed today actually in the Dia de los Meurtos, in Mexico, Day of the Dead, in which the family gathers at the grave site,  bringing flowers and feasts,  just like the Romans did 2000 years ago.

We know that the Romans by the time of the Empire did not actually believe in the gods, either the Greek or the Roman adaptations (due to the antics?) but followed the rituals out of a sort of superstition. Exactly like Wang Lung in The Good Earth. And the ritual had to be followed exactly, lest some god become offended and bring bad stuff on the person involved. Do you all know the story of the Romann Admiral and the Sacred Birds?

Just yesterday I was reading about the Lombards, and their early ancestors the Langobardi, who had literally a Mother Nature, Mother Earth,  goddess they dragged out for ceremonies on her altar which was covered with cloth, wheeled her out, only the priests could approach.  While she was out, happiness and peace  reigned, but when it was time to put her back in for war, she had to be washed in the river and her cloths washed,  (have no idea what she looked like) and those who washed her were put to death. It's no surprise that the Lombards were distinguished as Tacitus says, by fewness in number. hahaha

Homer is writing of the very beginnings of religious beliefs among the Greeks. It's fascinating! But I don't think we should sell the ancients short here and consider them some kind of cave men, in any aspect, even emerging from the Dark Ages. I was just reading last night about the invention of the Odometer, for Pete's sake!

One last day before we leap into Book IV, what thoughts are you sitting there pondering? Share them! Is your translation holding up or holding your interest? Can you make anything at all out of it? hahahaa




ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #775 on: March 03, 2011, 09:08:27 AM »
Wow, we're all posting together, more later, my 4 year old grandson  says hurry hurry there's a fire in New York City he needs to put out!

Later, what interesting posts!!!

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #776 on: March 03, 2011, 10:14:07 AM »
 
The spiral has been an integral part of Greek art since the Bronze Age.  

My link for the map seems to have gone awry.  My advice is to just go to www.greeklandscapes.com  and find your way around the site.
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #777 on: March 03, 2011, 10:16:05 AM »
Ginny - Oooops.  Sorry, I meant only to quote the last lines in my previous post. :-[
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

ginny

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #778 on: March 03, 2011, 10:27:45 AM »
Right, I did see your correction, thank you,  but we were posting together. We're now completing a huge art mural but I'll be back tonight when little John is gone.

Frybabe

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #779 on: March 03, 2011, 01:15:34 PM »
Just a note to say I am still following along (barely). School work and Mom are taking a lot of my time right now.

I don't recall if anyone reading the Pope translation mentioned it, but I noticed that Pope used Minerva, Athena and Pallas at different times in the text. I didn't pay a whole lot of attention before, but I am going to try and note when the different names are used to see if it has to do with the context of that particular scene.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #780 on: March 03, 2011, 01:57:05 PM »
OK roshanarose I fixed your quote post for  you - hope it is closer to what  you intended. - if not I can go back and re-enter what you originally included.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanR

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #781 on: March 03, 2011, 03:03:49 PM »
I'm still here! Completely in awe of all the erudite posts!  What a wonderful way to read this great epic.

For some reason I was determined to find Gerenia on a map.  My copy of Long's Classical Atlas (pub.1856 but in very good shape) listed it in the index with its latitude and longitude - still hard to see since it's tiny, but I did find it!  I also looked in Google for Nestor of Gerenia and found references including one on - of all things - Facebook!  What? What? I looked and Nestor does indeed have a Facebook page! Athena is listed as one of his friends!

By the way, I am also a Murray! Until I married a Roberts, but I've kept the Murray as my middle name.  I didn't major in Classics  but I did take a seminar in Classical Literary Criticism which I hugely enjoyed.

My antique atlas was published on Murray Street.  Connections galore!

JoanK

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #782 on: March 03, 2011, 03:22:23 PM »
I see the question of "free will" a little differently. I see these Greeks as people desperately trying to understand the universe and to get some control over it (as do all peoples). Their explanation is that the things they don't understand are caused by "gods", so the only means they have of control is to appease the gods, get them on their side.

So they sacrifice to the gods. But it doesn't work! The storms still rage! So the sacrifice wasn't big enough! More bulls. And more. Even a daughter or two!

If it still doesn't work, they look for another explanation. The gods are angry. Someone did something to make the god angry. But i've done everything to get him/her on my side, and it didn't work. It must be a different god. There must be two gods quarrelling. I can have one on my side, but not both. So we get more gods and more quarrels.

So the gods cause everything. but humans cause everything, too because they keep doing things that make the gods angry. Humans have free will in this belief, but only to either make the gods happy or make them angry. And if they're caught in the middle between two gods they're stuck. Or if their fathers made a god angry. They can only keep piling on more and more bulls and hope for the best.

bookad

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #783 on: March 03, 2011, 04:33:04 PM »
wow! Joan I love the way you put it...about the Gods
amazing, I feel like I can visualize it now...makes sense

thank you
Deb
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

Jonathan

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #784 on: March 03, 2011, 05:18:35 PM »
'the gods are angry...keep piling on more and more bulls and hope for the best'

Joan, what a wonderful, hilarious post. It's making believers out of us. So, was the ODYSSEY meant as a gospel? Or as an exposé of those gods on Olympus.

rosemarykaye

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #785 on: March 03, 2011, 05:34:40 PM »
Yes Joan, I agree - brilliant post.  I can just picture them piling on those bulls.  Makes me think of Asterix & Obelisk (I know they weren't Greek, but all the same).

Rosemary

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #786 on: March 03, 2011, 06:09:55 PM »
Joan great - I love it - the hubris of man - we want everything the way we want it and if our own efforts cannot control nature and each other its got to be gods or the furies or witches or diabolo, or the dragon or fairies or the angles or or or - and sacrifice we do to appease what we think is causing or stopping us from what we want. Oh my....

Maybe its time to switch from exploring the issue of free will versus predestination on to absolute (control) verses ambiguity.  ;)

Great post Joan...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JudeS

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #787 on: March 03, 2011, 07:21:14 PM »
When I read of Telemachus and the servant girl bathing him and rubbing him with oil I wondered if that is a euphemism for something else ?
Again in Chap. four we read Helen's words ,talking of Odysseus :""But after I bathed him and, rubbed him down with oils".
This after she talks about his beauty. What do othes think or is it only me with a dirty mind?
What was the attitude towards sex among the well bred in Greece of the time? Anybody knowledgable? Did the Gods and Humans mix in this way?
Is this subject fit for a Senior learn discussion? If not, please excuse the intrusion .

PatH

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #788 on: March 03, 2011, 08:34:11 PM »
JoanK, I'm laughing too--funny, but still a perfect precis.

Rosemary, I'm glad to see another Asterix fan here.  Hmmm--maybe if we add some wild boars to the sacrifice it'll work.

Dana

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #789 on: March 03, 2011, 08:42:07 PM »
Regarding the sacrifice issue....I just started reading "The Bull from the Sea" and was interested that the first big issue in it is the sacrifice of the best, leading stallion, and it immediately reminded me of the Roman custom of sacrificing the October horse, the champion, best, horse who won the October race, and that reminded me of Colleen McCullough's title for one of her Julius Caesar series, "The October Horse"--I guess she saw JC's murder as a kind of sacrifice of the best man they had, (although they did it out of jealousy and rage at his ambition, or perhaps just his superiority and the fact he wanted to change the status quo.)

  I guess the ancients sacrificed the best.... the king, the best horse, whatever, as the most valuable thing they could give up to the gods in order to obtain their favour, kind of like leaving gold jewelery at shrines....maybe......

In reading my post of-course it occurred to me that the crucifixion is the ultimate sacrifice of the son of god.  I remember all that now, in The Golden Bough....has anyone read it, what a book....Barb, have you? I bet you'd love it, if you haven't.

roshanarose

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #790 on: March 03, 2011, 10:08:25 PM »
Jude - It is rather a sensuous notion, I agree.  I know that the ancient Olympians used to rub themselves down with oil to get the dust and dirt off after competing using a hand device invented for that purpose.  Homer often describes Telemachus as 'god-like' so his presence would no doubt cause some titillation among the people in Sparti.  

The hand device looks a bit like the one they use on racehorses in modern times after a race.  The horse is hosed down, has a roll and then this device is used to get all the dirt off.  I will try to find the word ??? for the Greek device.

Thanks Barb for fixing up that quote for me.  Some days my knowledge of the cyber world disappears into the ether.  Well, probably, most days :(

I found this relating to perfumed oil in Ancient Greece

Perfume was also integral to cleanliness, and used in elaborate bathing rituals by both men and women. It was used so widespread that the philosopher Socrates openly disliked and dismissed its usage claiming it made a free man indistinguishable from a slave. Athletes used perfume after exercise for medicinal purposes in the form of balms and unguent oils. This is an early recognition of the possible therapeutic and healing properties that are reminiscent of attitudes towards aromatherapy and aromacology in modern times. Hospitality also required an abundance of perfume as guest`s feet were washed and anointed on being seated. Some wines were also perfumed according to works by Appicius, in the hope that they had medicinal properties

www.articlesbase.com/education-articles/perfume-in-ancient-greece

Bathing during the Ancient Olympics
www.olympics.org.uk
Olympic Fact Sheet 1
p.4

Because they were not covered by clothing, athletes
took great care to protect their skin. Before starting
the day’s training or competition, athletes would rub
their body with olive oil then dust themselves with
fine sand. This helped to regulate their body
temperature and protect them from the sun. After
competing, athletes would scrape off the sweat, oil
and sand with a curved tool called a strigil. Then they
would be washed using water and a sponge.


Strigil was the word I was trying to remember.
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

Dana

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #791 on: March 03, 2011, 10:29:25 PM »
strigil is the word.    My understanding is that it was a courtesy to a guest to be oiled and/bathed by slaves/servants.  Human nature being what it is, I expect one thing could lead to another and no doubt you could choose your sex of slave too.  I know the Spartans are supposed to have no shame re the body, so even women/girls exercised naked, as men did at the Olympic games and so on.  It would not be the norm for Helen to oil down Odysseus, so if she did it she must have taken over the role from a slave girl--which fits in with her character as a bold, flirtatious and sexy lady--but what's so lovely is her saying it to everyone, with Menelaus right there!!  It paints a evocative picture of what she was like (and is one reason I find Menelaus to be a weak kind of guy).  He does retaliate by calling her bluff after she says she had repented "long ago", by pointing out how she tried to help the trojans by imitating the Greeks wives....
whether O. succumbed to her charms, or whether the story it true is up in the air for me.  I like to think that's how Homer wanted it.....

kidsal

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #792 on: March 04, 2011, 04:28:16 AM »
JoanR:  If you give us the latitude and longitude of Gerednia we can find it on Google Earth.

ginny

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Book IV, Helen at last, but is she what we thought?
« Reply #793 on: March 04, 2011, 06:30:35 AM »
hahaha What super posts! Joan K, I love what you did there, absolutely love it,  it captures completely how I would feel anyway, caught up in  trying to appease the gods.

RR that was a beautiful site and maps, I'll put one up later, and we can compare Pylos, I may have the wrong one, can't stop staring at the maps, they are beautiful.  (They do say, did you all know, that the first thing to go in Alzheimer's is the ability to read maps, I'm a dead woman) hahaa


There seems to be another geographic question in Book IV we need to address. Yes PLEASE let's get
Gerenia or however it's spelled, Murray #V , haha if you'll give the coordinates.

I thought Jonathan had a great question: So, was the ODYSSEY meant as a gospel? Or as an exposé of those gods on Olympus.

Maybe both? What a good point!

The Oxford Companion to Classical Literature says of the Greeks and their religion:

Quote
The Greeks would have agreed with the historian Herodotus that it  was the poets Homer and Hesiod who gave the gods their names and settled their ritual. The gods in Homer are the twelve Olympians who constitute a divine family of which the individual members are strongly characterized, they are essentially human in their behavior and motivated by human desires, but differ from men in their power and in their immortality.

The Greeks did not have a  word for "religion." Eusebeia (piety) is the word that comes closest to the idea. Piety lay in the performance of traditional rituals and in the observance of traditional modes of restrained behavior and thought expressed in the Delphic maxims. Performance of cult had little to do with men's ideas about god....State gods were important for the safety of the city and were not to be interfered with....

There was no organization remotely comparable with the Christian church, no dogma and no firmly asserted connection between religion and morality, linked to an afterlife (except for the mystery religions).  But certainly divine attitudes shown in Homer's Odyssey and Hesiod's Works and Days provided a basis for morality; by the 4th century Zeus was regarded as the upholder of justice, and for the philosophers it was self-evident that god must be good. The religious awe with which  the gods were regarded is apparent in  Greek art as well as literature.

The old gods and the old myths finally lost their vitality among the educated classes in the Hellenistic age, with the disappearance of the city state, though the simple cults of the peasantry survived. Among the educated the old religion was replaced, in so far as it was replaced at all, by philosophical systems, notably the Stoic and Epicurean.
 

So it appears Homer more or less invented the Greek gods and shows in the Odyssey how they are to be venerated.

Good point Jude S and Dana, I thought the same,  something not quite right there, I agree with JudeS, very erotic,  and I agree with Dana,  Helen is no slave girl, is she? She is, in fact, a goddess herself.   She was the one born of Zeus and Leda and the swan, talk about your grade A porn, and actually
Quote
she and her brothers were   worshiped  as important deities  in Sparta, but  in the literary tradition, starting with Homer,  she is the entirely human wife of King Menelaus, of Sparta, the younger brother of Agamemnon, who is married to Helen's sister Clytemnestra.
(OCCL)

So Helen herself is the daughter of a god. This mingling of gods and men  continues all over the myths of Antiquity, (think Aeneas, Hercules, Achilles, you name the hero, he's not only godLIKE he's related genetically TO the gods).  This is one super reason why Julius Caesar traced his ancestry back to Aeneas, the son of a goddess.

As the "face that launched a thousand ships," (who said that?) Helen  now appears back home with her husband.

Let's start Book IV,  I absolutely LOVED Book IV, did you? Just loved it. I sat down to read it yesterday while the baby who insisted in watching a DVD on machines sat next to me, and I don't know who was the more entranced. :) Didn't last long enough.

PROTEUS! I absolutely love the shape shifting Proteus, love it!! Pirates of the Caribbean, Transformers, nobody has a patch on 3000 year old Homer. But let's do Helen first!

 After all this build up and Brad Pitt movies, how did you envision Helen? What have we actually  got? How is she like what you thought and how is she different?

The Temple U Questions on Helen run like this:

Book 4

124-34 T. and Pisistratus are welcomed at Sparta (Lacedaemon) by Menelaus and Helen, who recognize T.'s resemblance to his father. They all cry in grief over old memories, and Helen puts a soothing drug in their wine. Note the two stories told by Menelaus and Helen (note the importance of story-telling in general). What more do we learn about O. and about Agamemnon? Do you see any pattern in the accounts of the heroes as they return from Troy? Is Helen as you expect her to be? Is there anything strange about her marriage? Compare Sparta to Ithaca.

134-43  Do M and H deserve the happy afterlife Proteus predicts? In general, so you see any signs that Telemachus is maturing?

144-152 T is persuaded to stay in Sparta. The scene changes to Ithaca where the suitors plot to ambush T. en route home. Penelope is upset, but Athena cheers her with a dream. The ambush is laid. How many days are we into the story at this point? Try to keep track of this. We won't be seeing T again for a while.


 Let's start with talking about Helen. How do you visualize her?  Did you imagine her as  blond or brunette? You must have an idea in your mind's eye, or do you? The art on her is astounding, I guess it's hard to depict ethereal beauty. Do we have a movie star or beauty today who seems to be what you'd think Helen was?

Does this do it for you?





Helen
Dante Gabriel Rossetti (1828 - 1882
)


How DO you see Helen? And how do you read her going to Troy? The art through the ages on this is amazing. Some have her taken off forcefully, some have her tripping happily along with her child reaching out in vain, how do YOU interpret how she went to Troy?

What surprises you about Helen in Book IV? Anything?

What's this business about the Trojan Horse and what she did?

In short, what do you make of our Helen here?

YOU'RE the reader, and in you the story lives again if only for a brief moment, what's  YOUR judgment of Helen?



rosemarykaye

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #794 on: March 04, 2011, 06:47:53 AM »
Ginny, I think it was Telly Savalas...... ;D

I imagine Helen as a tanned blonde beauty (though maybe blonde isn't very Greek?).  I am trying to think of someone famous like her but so far I can't.  Maybe the sort of women you see in spas - and who look like they practically live there!

Rosemary

rosemarykaye

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #795 on: March 04, 2011, 06:50:21 AM »
PS - I have just googled "the face that launched a thousand ships" and was told that it was first said by a character in Dr Faustus by Christopher Marlowe.  He apparently referred to Helen as "Helen of Greece".

R

Mippy

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #796 on: March 04, 2011, 07:10:52 AM »
Thanks for the reference, Rosemary!   Here's a link, so that everyone call recall the Marlowe play, in which the so-called hero, Dr. Faustus, searches for, among other matters, the most beautiful woman who ever lived:

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathCulture/4-14.html
 
The Spark Notes link tells how Faustus calls up Helen of Troy, before his own death.

http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/doctorfaustus/summary.html
quot libros, quam breve tempus

JoanR

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #797 on: March 04, 2011, 08:06:49 AM »
Ginny - Gerenia is: Lat. 36.46 and Long.  22.9.  It's on the western coast of the piece of Messenia that sticks farthest down into the sea. That's a bay there called the Messeniaeus Sinus (!!) Love that name.  I hope this helps with your map.  Remember mine is a very old one, sprinkled with archaic names.

By the way, the Pompeii exhibit has opened in NYC and will be there through Sept.5.  I'll put a link to the NYT article in the Classics site.

Babi

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #798 on: March 04, 2011, 09:26:02 AM »
 From what I recall of images I've seen of ancient earth/nature/
fertility goddesses, is that they were all rather stumpy, with
prominent breastsm abdomens and hips. Not at all attractive. By the
time the Greek Cybele appeared, the image was full-bodied, but
pleasantly so.

  Part of the King's responsibility was the protection of his
people. The fact that he would be, if necessary, the ultimate
sacrifice was the reason he had so many privileges and a more
pleasant life. How many of them actually made that sacrifice is
problematic. Many died in battle, of course, but I don't really
recall one who actually gave himself up for sacrifice to appease
the gods on behalf of his people. So all this may have been an
astute political maneuver on the part of their majesties.

 I find a curious thing in my translation.  Menelaos, speaking of his
love for his friend Odysseus, concludes with the line, "But God himself must have been envious, to batter the bruised man so that he alone should fail in his return."
  This is the only time I have seen the singular "God" used.  Am I to
assume that this is a reference to Zeus?  In all other instances, the
god is identified by name.

  Helen does have a way of saying contradictory things, doesn't she.
One time she refers to her 'wanton' past;  later she blames in all on
Aphrodite,  who "drew me away from my dear fatherland, forsaking all".
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

bookad

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Re: The Classics Book Club
« Reply #799 on: March 04, 2011, 12:10:33 PM »
I feel Helen was two faced and am surprised that her family would be happy to have her back.
she blames Aphrodite for her leaving her husband and going to Troy
Quote
my heart had changed by now and was for going back home again, and I grieved for the madness that Aphrodite bestowed when she led me there away from my own dear country, forsaking my own daughter, my bedchamber, and my husband.
line 261Lattimore

are they thinking this is a joke --history could have been changed, and this book would not be as long
line 277-Lattimore
Quote
Then you came there, Helen; you will have been moved by some divine spirit who wished to grant glory to the Trojans...Three times you walked around the hollow ambush, feeling it, and you called out naming them by name,...and made your voice sound like the voice of the wife of each of the Argives
I cannot believe they are talking so lightly about this situation, or so it seems to me....

I am not feeling too keen on Helen at this point.  How would one redeem themself after such actions!!!

Deb
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.