Classics Book Club, The

[PatH]

 
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Now reading:

April 22-----Book  XI:  Hades  

Odysseus and his companions enter Hades
Fresco from a house in Rome
1 BC
Vatican Library, Rome

Odysseus and Elpenor
Attic red figure pelike
c. 475 BC

  

Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny  

Odysseus consults the shade of Tiresias
Lucanian red figure calyx krater
4th century BC

Useful Links:

1. Critical Analysis: Free SparkNotes background and analysis  on the Odyssey
2. Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:
3. Initial Points to Watch For: submitted by JudeS
4. Maps:
Map of the  Voyages of Odysseus
Map of Voyages in order
Map of Stops Numbered
Our Map Showing Place Names in the Odyssey

Odysseus seeks out other famous dead men
17th century etching
Theodor van Thulden (1606 - 1669)

Thank you, PatH

[PatH]

I personally think that a thorough knowledge of the Greek gods and goddesses is essential in understanding Homer.

I was lucky in having a grade school education that gave me a reasonable background in mythology, so at least I'm familiar with the cast of characters.  For background and some details, I've also been consulting a book recommended to me by a friend, Edith Hamilton's Mythology.  It's written simply, as though for young people, but it gives a good overall summary of most of the myths.  The disadvantage is that she synthesizes the stories from different sources, so it's not always possible to tell what comes from where, even though there is a preface to each section telling the sources.  But she truly loves the whole body of work, and it shows in her descriptions, often amusingly.  examples:

Cupid and Psyche--"This story is told only by Apulius, a Latin writer of the second century A. D.  It is a prettily told tale, after the manner of Ovid.  The writer is entertained by what he writes; he believes none of it."

Events leading up to the Trojan war, not described in the Iliad, after describing her major sources: "...adding a few details, such as the tale of Oenone, from the prose-writer Apollodorus, who wrote probably in the first or second century A. D.  He is usually very uninteresting, but in treating the events leading up to the Iliad, he was apparently inspired by touching so great a subject and he is less dull than in almost any other part of his book."

[kidsal]

Who were these people?
TYRO was a Thessalian princess who fell in love with the river Enipeus. As she was sitting by the banks of the river, Poseidon approached her in the guise of the river-god and seduced her. She bore him twin sons, Pelias and Neleus, which she exposed in the wilderness to die. There they were found and rescued by passing herdsmen who raised them as their own. Tyro's father Salmoneus later married her to his brother Kretheus, King of Iolkos, and she bore him three sons – Aeson, Pheres and Amythaon. Upon reaching manhood the sons of Poseidon returned to their mother, and seized control of their uncle's Kretheus' kingdom. They also slew his second wife Sidero, who had been mistreating Tyro.
ALCMENE was the mother of Hercules and the wife of Amphitryon, but the night she conceived Hercules and his twin brother Iphicles, Alcmene mated with both Zeus, who had disguised himself as her husband, and Amphitryon. As a result, Zeus was Hercules' father, but Amphitryon was the father of Iphicles.
EPICASTE was the daughter of Menoeceus, and wife of Laius, by whom she became the mother of Oedipus, whom she afterwards unwittingly married. She is more commonly called Jocaste.
CHLORIS  was married Neleus and become queen in Pylos. They had several sons including Nestor, Alastor and Chromius and a daughter Pero. Chloris also had a son, Periclymenus while married to Neleus, though by some accounts Periclymenus's father was Poseidon (who was himself Neleus's father). Poseidon gave Periclymenus the ability to transform into any animal. Other children include Taurus, Asterius, Pylaon, Deimachus, Eurybius, Phrasius, Eurymenes, Evagoras and Epilaus.
IPHIMEDEIA was the daughter of Triopas, who in his turn was the son of Poseidon and Canace. Iphimedeia was married to Aloeus, but fell desperately in love with her grandfather, and would walk up and down the beach to get him to come to her.   She bore twins: Otus and Ephialtes.  The twins grew bigger and stronger, and finally were so huge they even worried the gods. They managed to capture Ares and put him in chains, and threatened they would instigate war on the gods.  The son of Zeus killed them when they were youths.
PHAEDRA was the daughter of Minos and Pasiphaë, wife of Theseus and the mother of Demophon of Athens and Acamas.  Though married to Theseus, Phaedra fell in love with Hippolytus, Theseus' son born by either Hippolyta, queen of the Amazons, or Antiope, her sister.   In one story Theseus killed his son and Phaedra committed suicide.
PROCRIS  was the daughter of the Athenian king Erechtheus and the wife of the hero Cephalus (Kefalos). The ancient authors give us a romantic story with a tragic ending about this beautiful couple. Their troubles began when the goddess of dawn Eos fell in love with Cephalus and abducted him to the end of the world.  According to one version of this myth, Cephalus wanted to go back to his wife and Eos said she would let him, if he agreed to one condition: he had to return to his wife in the image of another person, to make sure that she would stay faithful to her spouse. So Cephalus visited Procris -- who did not know that he was her husband -- and she did not want to hear any of his proposals. Cephalus then tried to bribe her with golden jewelry and at very moment Procris hesitated, Eos changed Cephalus back into his original form. Procris immediately recognized her husband and she was so ashamed of herself that she ran away. She went to live in the mountains with the nymphs attending the goddess Artemis. After some time Cephalus managed to locate Procris and brought her back home, taking along with her the gifts of Artemis -- a hound which never failed to catch his prey and a magical dart that never missed its mark.
ARIADNE was the immortal wife of the wine-god Dionysos. There were several versions of her story. In one, Ariadne, the daughter of King Minos of Krete, assisted Theseus in his quest to slay the Minotaur, and then fled with him aboard his ship. However, when they landed on the island of Naxos, Theseus abandoned her as she was sleeping. It was here that the god Dionysos discovered her and made her his wife. Some say that she was later slain by Artemis at Dia.
MAIRA (or Maera) was the nymph of the dog-star Seirios whose rising in conjunction with the sun brought on the scorching heat of midsummer. Like the Pleiades and Hyades, Maira was a starry daughter of the Titan Atlas. She married a mortal king, the Arkadian Tegeates.
CLYMENE was the Titan goddess of renown, fame and infamy. She was one of the elder Okeanides, wife of the Titan Iapetos, mother of the Titanes Prometheus and Atlas and the ancestress of all mankind. Like the Titan-wives she was probably an earth-goddess, her name bringing to mind "Klymenos," a common euphemistic title of the god Haides.  CLYMENE  was also named Asia, and in this guise portrayed as the eponymous goddess of the region of Anatolia (i.e. Asia Minor). It should be noted that it was only later that geographers applied this name to the continent.
ERIPHYLE was the daughter of Talaus, the mother of Alcmaeon,  and the wife of Amphiaraus. Eriphyle persuaded Amphiaraus to take part in the Seven Against Thebes raid, though he knew he would die. She had been persuaded by Polynices, who offered her the necklace of Harmonia for her assistance. Amphiaraus asked his sons Alcmaeon and Amphilochus to avenge his death, and Alcmaeon killed his mother after Amphiaraus died.
None of these women were faithful wives.  Did it make O wonder about Penelope?

[kidsal]

The Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh. There is a house where people sit in darkness; dust is their food and clay their meat. They are clothed like birds with wings for covering, they see no light, they sit in darkness.  Source of Homer's Cimmerian's?

Why are Tiresias and Alcinous in Hades?  Have they died since Telemachus visited them?

[Babi]

 I had to drag myself away from that link, BARB. It does indeed put events in better
perspective.
  Another one of those coincidences.  Last night the SCi/Fy channel was showing...guess what...
"Odyssey"!!   It is a four hour show, which squeezes the war with Troy into a brief introductory
segment.  Agamemnon and Menelaus show up to drag Odysseus off to war the same day
Telemachus was born. I decided I'd rather stick with the book.   

[JoanK]

BARB: I watched part of that show: it was really scary. But the way both the people and the forests recovered was heartening.

Is everyone in the path of disaster all right?

[ginny]

Wow what great posts and links.

Thank you for saving the heading space, PatH.. I am so glad to see your analysis of the Edith Hamilton Mythology. I never understood why people tended to go on and on about her, (I like Bulfinch better) but you've managed to nail it.  I am interested in your quote about Apuleius Cupid and Psyche--The writer is entertained by what he writes; he believes none of it." What an odd thing to say about a fairy tale embedded in a story, the only extant Latin novel,  of a man who becomes literally an ass, a donkey.

I thought you made a good point with this:   He's a mythic hero, and I'm standing back and watching.  Later on we'll see a different side of him, a contrast to Achilles.



This later on stuff seems to be important. One major question is: does Odysseus grow as a person as the Odyssey progresses? It will be interesting to see how we all answer that one at the end.


Sandy Rose, what a good point on the Rieu translation: . Page XXII says remember 9 thru 12, "O is telling the story at this point: no one will steal his limelight."   And it says this is probably why the crew seems to be rather colorless

Now there's something that never occurred to me.. It's possible the rather colorless or flat  nature of the crew (I was surprised to see Eurylochus stepping up to the plate), may be intentional. To make O look since he is the one talking, more hero like. Good point!

Frybabe, I didn't know that about Freud and the UFO's, thank you for bringing that here.

RR thank you for that link, it's a great resource. I think you are right on the question of how are we different from the ancient Greeks in citing religion (at least for most of us),  and  in saying religious differences are still a major concern.  There do seem to me to be some comparisons between some of the Greek gods and the Hindu gods of India today  (who themselves are quite ancient).

Jude I liked your comparison of Harry Potter and Kon Tiki when comparing the Odyssey to both.  That's very good.

Babi I am not seeing many male chuckles here, it could be my translation.

I guess what I AM seeing is  where do we draw the line of the "willing suspension of disbelief?"

Do we accept a giant who eats men? Do we accept that Circe turned O's men into pigs?  Then if we accept the pigs, why do we quibble about whether or not she had power over him in the manner of sleeping with him? Where do we draw the line and why?

I think it's interesting what we choose to accept and what we think is bogus or an excuse. But how can we not apply our own critical minds to the text? Where do we draw the line?


Joan K, great points on the nature of the emotions of Greek men then and modern man.  I loved that, the differences explain the culture.

Sally, loved that on Patton.  I had thought he did send scouts but it appears he took two companies.  You asked why did Hermes care?  Hermes is only the messenger so far as I know. I don't think he does care.

Deb that book sounds wonderful! I really think it's great how many auxiliary books and websites everybody is reading. We can't help but be the richer for it.

Barbara that is a fascinating site, thank you. It IS interesting to contemplate the whole time line,  in relation to the others of the world.

Babi,  isn't it amazing how once you start reading something it appears everywhere: loved the  the SiFi channel and the Odyssey and the new issue of Time which came Saturday,  has as a cover story: What if There's no Hell?

And here O is about to go to Hades himself!

It seems everywhere you turn there's a reference to the Odyssey, and we've had some super ones brought here. Heck, I just heard this morning again that the police were looking for a black Odyssey hahaha. But in all these references, since we're lucky enough to be reading it for ourselves, what are we actually taking OUT of our experience in reading the original Odyssey?

If somebody asked you what you were getting from it, what would you say?


 Super discussion! I need to break this up.

[ginny]

Sally, what questions you ask!  That huge page of women and then:  None of these women were faithful wives.  Did it make O wonder about Penelope?

I don't know why it wouldn't, if he knew of them. Yet he did laugh over the tale of Mars and Hephaestus and the unfaithful Venus, which sort of shows a man without worries.  Still.

Does O know at this point about Agamemnon's fate?


And then this one: Why are Tiresias and Alcinous in Hades?  Have they died since Telemachus visited them?

Man o man now THAT'S close reading. I didn't even catch that.   I've only got Tiresias there, but I didn't notice him at all till you mentioned it, got caught up in the death heads my text has.  I don't have Alcinous. He's telling this story to Alcinous, right?

 
When did we last see Tiresias?  I can't remember.  And where?

And more strangeness: at  the very end of 10 O says that  Circe had gone ahead and tethered a ram and a black ewe (wonder why black is the only color to give Tiresias? )...

"She had passed us by
Without our ever noticing.  Who could see
A god on the move against the god's will?"

Here Circe is once and for all  identified as a goddess.

But she's not the only one.

SandyRose asked:


And my question is why is O called the favorite of Zeus??  yet always complaining about his woes brought on by Zuess ??  Perhaps I forget it is O telling this and has to blame someone.

I did not know the answer to that, apparently I need to read a little more closely, because just today it's jumping out all over me:

Somewhere around line 508:   (BUT Fagles does not have this! He has "royal son")

"Son of Laertes in the line of Zeus."


Huh? Odysseus is in the family of Zeus?

This is repeated again in 527.

And again in line 442 of Book 10:

" With you back, Zeus- born, it is just as if
 we had returned to our native  Ithaca."

Now call me crazy (and of course we do remember who is telling this story) but here not only a goddess but his own crew seem to feel he's related to Zeus?

Is this the first time we've seen this? I feel as if I've been asleep at the switch here. That would account for a lot of things. Is he just....what? Hallucinating? Sort of bragging? Making grandiose statements?

This is getting exciting, it really is. We get to go down into Hades  where Pulto and Proserpina (for 6 months) live, and she apparently has taken her job seriously while she's there:


"To consult the ghost of Theban Tiresias  (around 509)
The blind prophet, whose mind is still strong.
To him alone  Persephone has granted
Intelligence even after his death.
The rest of the dead are flitting shadows."

Wow.  And we get to meet them all as they "loom" (Lombardo) as shades. I can't wait.

And then there's a ritual.  And the River Styx.  I don't see Charon tho.   What are the feeble death heads? What does your translation have for this? It's somewhere around line 555 or so. Note they have to be kept from the blood. The Romans (I don't know about the Greeks) believed the favored drink of the dead was blood, that's why they brought wine (a substitute) to the graves for the dead on special occasions.

Now Elpenor, a young man, as they are getting ready to cast off, falls off the  roof, drunk, and breaks his neck and goes down to Hades. Why?

Seems kind of anticlimactic?

Why do they need to consult Tiresias, it says "He will tell you the route and how long it will take
For you to reach home over the teeming deep."

Does O not know the way home?  I'm getting lost in the length of the journey again with all these flashbacks.

Since he stayed with Circe a year, (how long with Calypso...was it 10 years?)  and how long with Nausicaa, do you think  there anything we can deduce from the length of times spent as to his feelings on each (or should we be asking about the power of each?)


I'm trying to make a list of modern values that we can see in this so far.

Loyalty
Honor?
Faithfulness? (Penelope)
Bravery? Or foolhardiness as SandyRose said. We need to keep our own lists, so we can see if he changes any at the end.

I have more questions than answers at this point!  Super discussion, just super!

[Frybabe]

Rosehannarose, I must have been asleep when I read your post. Just reread it. Max Muller I have heard about, but don't know anything about him. Karl Kerenyi is not familiar to me at all. Will look them up.

Ginny, Freud? Good heavens no. Jung, Karl Jung. On the whole, I am not a Freud fan, but his work on defense mechanisms was interesting.

[ginny]

oops! Must have been a Freudian slip! hjahahaha I wondered as I typed it, thought it was sort of a strange combination, it was. hahahah Sorry!

[PatH]

JoanK and I have a long acquaintance with the story of Circe.  When we were in grade school we used to write plays, probably more distinguished for their enthusiasm than their literary quality.  One of these was about Circe.  We disagreed about whether it should be serious or a comedy, and the compromise was that it would be a straightforward telling of the story, but the obligatory Greek chorus would consist of animals, men Circe had already changed.  They stood around making wisecracks like "don't drink that stuff--you'll be sorry", and saying "I told you so".

[ginny]

Shriek!! hahahahaa Oh my goodness aren't you CLEVER!! And you did this as children? Just reading it made ME want to do it, maybe I'm having a fifth childhood! I bet we could write one now. hahahaa

THAT is priceless!  hahahaaa

[roshanarose]

Frybabe - If I have helped you with your slumber, I am happy!!!    I thought that line was so sweet.  

Sal - I also enjoyed reading your post about those gods and mortals.  Many of those names (preOlympian I think) were unknown to me, but I did recognise one very famous hero.  Re your First para.

There they were found and rescued by passing herdsmen who raised them as their own. Tyro's father Salmoneus later married her to his brother Kretheus, King of Iolkos, and she bore him three sons – Aeson, Pheres and Amythaon. Upon reaching manhood the sons of Poseidon returned to their mother, and seized control of their uncle's Kretheus' kingdom. They also slew his second wife Sidero, who had been mistreating Tyro.

Aeson is Greek for Jason of Argonauts fame.  I think his exploits predated those of Odysseus.  I will attempt to find out.

Language Trivia : the end of the word Argonauts, i.e. -nauts, mean sailor/s in both Modern and Ancient Greek.  In a modern sense it was used in the Space Race. e.g. astronaut + star traveller; and cosmonaut means world/sky traveller (cosmos has several meanings in Greek - it can mean "the whole world (as in people) knows about it" or as it does in cosmonaut "world, universe.  

As for Odysseus and Zeus being related, maybe we can take that back to the explanation that if in the world of heroes children were born whose mortal father could not be identified, he/she was conveniently explained as being parented by a god.  Even Alexander thought he was a child of a god.  He believed this because Phillip treated his wife, Alexander's mother, badly and Alexander grew to dislike him intensely.

[Frybabe]

PatH What a riot that must have been.

[kidsal]

Perhaps Elpenor is in Hades because he was not buried -- important to him that O go back and give him a burial.

[ginny]

This "son of " thing will drive you nuts.

I thought Aeson was Jason's father.

And Laertes is Odysseus's father. I wonder if we can find out anything about Laertes and his own father? Reminds me of an old commercial for Petri wine featured in the old WWII Sherlock Holmes series on radio: from Father to Son, from Father to Son.

Very interesting history, that one had. The Petris turned into Italian Swiss Colony.

[ginny]

Sally, that makes sense on  Elpenor, we'll have to watch (I can't remember the rest of it except the end) and see if you're right! Otherwise it seems such a waste.

I am not sure what more we could ask of Odysseus, really, when you think of it. Yes in the Iliad he was a braggart, I guess, I seem to remember him pointing out,  Donald Trump like, his successes at outwitting Ajax and how he should have had the credit. I am not seeing a lot of this here, strangely enough?

He seems strangely modest,  actually. He's sitting in the ashes, he's being a supplicant, the only time he does get riled up is when one of the young bucks challenges him, I think anybody of a certain age can relate to that.

He wants to go home to his  wife and child, it's been...well how long NOW is it? 11 years? so far?  He's long past "presumed dead," and he's wanting to get back home. Talk about  George Clooney in the movie Up int he Air, now there's another modern Odysseus,  I wonder if the current sex with no attachments is any different than what's happening here?

If you were to consider the entire story a metaphor (PatH gave me this idea with her play with Joan K) and try to stage it in 2011,  I keep wondering how O would come across?

You'd have to change some of the challenges. You could not have a giant eating men, or a woman turning men into pigs, it's fun to contemplate what you WOULD have, tho. I mean what the modern expression might be for seeing your men turn into pigs or the walls crawling?

Either way he keeps meeting the challenges and coming out on top, but he's losing men and when he gets to Alcinous to whom he's telling all this, he's down to one ship and one man: him,   is that right?  The Laestrygonians got all the ships but his? The flashbacks are confusing me. He's got men at  Circe's, he's got enough to divide them into two packs of 11 each.  And now after 11 years? of effort he gets to go to Hell...er Hades. This 11 has got to be one of the best books of the entire thing, except for the end.

Are we caught up enough to go on to it? For...Friday?

He doesn't seem to question that he needs to ask Tiresias the way home. I wonder why Circe could  not provide him that information?

If he needed it.  Maybe she didn't want to? Maybe she hoped HE would never come out either?

And once again his MEN seem to see a clearer course and beg him to leave Circe so he goes and asks. Ok she says!! Does this mean he could have gone all this time and it's more him (Babi!) than her?

Sally we need to thank you, I had not read ahead and did not realize what you did, that's a great glossary to some of  those O will meet in Hades,  I've actually copied it out, thank you (in addition to being a great question you've asked).


I would say if we were putting on a performance of the Odyssey  in 2011, using modern metaphors,  I would not put it on as the Coen brothers did in O Brother Where Art Thou (tho you have to admit they were very clever, VERY) but I wonder if the challenges could be done with less...physical drama (nobody eating anybody or running from the police but still having challenges) and more psychological stuff?

I guess I'm trying to ask if our modern heroes face dangers similar to, if not more than, O did? Or not?  Can this be an allegory of sorts, I wonder idly, charmed by the idea of PatH and Joan K doing a play on Circe?

What do you think? About this or anything else?

[BarbStAubrey]

I wonder if today this story represents more a homecoming journey in the mind after war and it could be why so many returning from Iraq are reading the Odyssey.- so that rather than being blown hither and yon and confronting monsters in real life it is a case of confronting the feelings not allowed during war but stay unexplored and must be traversed in order to have a full homecoming. 

[JoanK]

BARB: AN EXCELLANT IDEA!

[JudeS]

When talking of Mythic heros we are forgetting Penelope who has raised her son on her own (O. left shortly after his birth) and keeps the home fires burning (so to speak).
Penelopes name lives on as a symbol of marital faithfulness. So here is some more info on this very symbolic personage.

Her name comes fromthe Greek "pene" (weft) and "ops' (face) which is the appropriate title for a cunning weaver  who for many years keeps weaving and unravelling her husband's shroud.
Penelope is recognized in Greek and Roman paintings and staues by her seated pose, by her reflective gesture of learning, her hand on her cheek and by her protectively crossed knees, reflecting her long chastity.  It is an unusual pose not found representing other figures. Some believe that this is not an action entertained by an ordinary mortal, but is the contemplated pose or act of a Goddess.

The Penelopiad is a book by Margaret Atwood retelling the Odyssey from Penelope's point of view.

[roshanarose]

Ginny - I stand corrected Aeson was Jason's father.  Normally the famed Jason is called Aeson in Greek texts for the simple reason that there is no other way his name can be transcribed from Greek to English, ie there is no "J" letter/sound in the Greek alphabet.

Still pondering O's relationship with Zeus.  I have done a few searches regarding this, and can't find the connection anywhere.  Can anyone help to clear this up?

[JudeS]

Roshanarose
I did a search and this is what I came up with -but be patient it is convaluted a bit.
ZZeus was once married to Metis a daughter of Ocean who was renown for her wisdom. When Metis became pregnant Zeus was warned that a son, born to Metis would usurp his throne. So Z. swallowed Metis. In time he was overcome with a splitting headache and called for help from Hephaestus the Craftsman god. H. cleaved Z.s forehead with an axe and Athena sprang forth fully armed.
One may read into this that the mythmakers wished to show that the male skygod gave birth to Athena as if to say "Who needs a woman to bring forth new life?"
Over time Athena fought with Poseidon over who would be the Patron Saint of Athens. She won this difficult struggle. She befriended Odysseus because of his defense of Athens.
Another theory or addition is that she is the Mother Goddess and eternal being. Odysseus was one of her select mortal companions. By helping him she showed her matenal qualities. She unifiesthe strength of humanity with Natural forces thus
bridging the gap between matriachal and patriarchial types and create a balance in the natural cycle of life.
So the answer to Odysseus and Zeus's relationship can only be told by understanding the bond between Athena and Zeus.
I hope this helps to answer your question.










 

[ginny]

Oh excellent tie in, Jude! Well done!

Barbara, what a neat hypothesis, I love it. And of course we have the Achilles in Vietnam: Combat Trauma and the Undoing of Character by Dr. Jonathan Shay who ALSO wrote: Odysseus in America: Combat Trauma and the Trials of Homecoming. That second book might make an interesting parallel here, actually. I haven't read it, have any of you?

And he wrote exactly on what you have described. And more.  We once had Dr. Shay agree to come in and discuss the Achilles book in our book discussions, but we could not get up enough people to read it!!! And had to cancel it. Shortly thereafter I was happy to see  he received a very prestigious award for his work in Traumatic Stress Syndrome.  It's entirely possible with this cape over the head and weeping that's exactly what O is experiencing, he's actually really been through it, hasn't he?

Roshanarose, that's interesting on Aeson in ancient Greek.  Latin does not have the j either but substitutes the I as in Iason  or Jason, which changes character when followed by a vowel. The Latin  Argonautica by Valerius Flaccus, which is a couple of hundred years later and  derivative of the Greek  Argonautica, (the only surviving Greek text of the story of Jason and the Argonauts  by  Apollonius of Rhodes), often confuses Latin students who keep seeing the word Aesonis, and translating it "Aeson," in the somewhat adapted version we use. Last year one of the students exclaimed  "who IS this Aeson, and why is he here?" It's irritating to find it peppered throughout  the text. Kind of like "son of Laertes" is here for Odysseus.

But in  Latin  the" is" on the end of the word Aesonis means "of Aeson," and is the same type of  thing we're seeing here, "son of Laertes," (Odysseus).  In the case of "Aesonis," in Latin  means "son of Aeson, " or Iason. (Jason). 


How is the greeting "yasou" in  modern Greek spelled? (My Greek consists of conversational Greek with the owner of a small eatery locally. Lovely man.)

[ginny]

In reading Jude's post I was somewhat surprised to see the meaning of Penelope, and when you combine that with Odysseus, the man of constant sorrow, as the modern song goes, the whole thing could easily be seen (bit of an extrapolation) as a metaphor, the entire set of characters symbolic, which is a pretty strong thing to be 3000 years old. In that context then Elpenor must also stand for something. He's not been buried properly, we know what a trauma that was in the Iliad, when Patroculus is dissed in that way.

IF all these characters are symbolic a dream did Roshannarose say some time back? I hope I've attributed that correctly, we've had so many fine ideas and comments,  if not and it was YOUR idea, please correct me,  then we CAN apply it today.

I mean those thinking of the promiscuity, have you ever watched 5 minutes of Jersey Shore? (How would you as a civilization like to be remembered by future generations? by the Odyssey or by Jersey Shore tapes? hahaha)

It iS the culture now.

 I can't help noticing SOME  parallels here between Ron and Odysseus actually. He holds Sammi to a higher standard than he has and is devastated by her not having been faithful to HIM. Of course they have not been married...how long must O and Penelope have been married at this point? He's 20 years getting home, T must be at least 20? Must he?

Following this theory, of all the challenges so far which O has faced, which one seems to have been the worst for him? And which the best in his point of view?

[Babi]

Does this mean he could have gone all this time and it's more him (Babi!) than her?

I have no idea, GINNY. 'Homer' is distressingly vague on this point. He seems intent on
making this trip home incredibly long, and manages to toss in year-long stays with no
real justification or explanation. Artistic license, I suppose.

 I echo JOANK, BARB. That is a really terrific thought, very apt. So many of our returning
warriors are having a very hard time of it.

[bookad]

roshanarose-really enjoy it when learning roots of words, like your sailor thing...meshes us with the source

and with your comment about Gods siring children without a father...why couldn't this have been peoples thoughts for years instead of the illegitimate horrible label that just was hurtful and a stupid human folly
from reply 1252



Deb

[BarbStAubrey]

Just a note on the reading of Odyssey by vets - there is a city library just south of Lakeland Airforce base in San Antonio that has had a Thursday night discussion group on the Odyssey for over a year now - I almost drove down but then realized it would be filled with vets and I felt like I would be horning in on their healing and discovery -

Near as I can tell from what I hear there is after a bit of time a seductiveness to being on the front line so that they never really drop it when they are on rotation if they know they are going back and almost feel they would rather not have had the time back in the States. Then, because of how differently we look at marriage today as compared to ancient and even courtly love as well as, church marriage up till the very early 1980s, the guilt for the attachment they feel toward their unit and fighting on the front line, especially for young Dads becomes a homecoming issue.

After reading The Art of Courtly Love by Andreas Capellanus and Charles J. Reid's Power over the Body, Equality in the Family, Rights and Domestic Relations in Medieval Canon Law it was easy to understand that Odysseus would not have had such guilt with a  very different view of marriage which would not have been based in love -

This story is reminding me though of a persistent nightmare when we are trying to solve something and each night a new twist with something preventing us from solving the issue comes along and we wake up in a panic. It is like all these events are simply exercises for Odysseus to use his craftiness to solve only to be thwarted again by another kerfuffle. A new email advertisement could be '21 ways to avoid roadblocks to success.' 

[BarbStAubrey]

Deb as I  understand it the awfulness that was and in some cases still is attached to children born out of wedlock has to do with progeny and the law. Remember Jane Austin's Sense and Sensibility how after the father dies they were forced out of the estate and by the good graces of a relative of the mother they had a humble home to move into with a meager allowance. She was not legally married and although on his deathbed he asked that she be cared for, legally she had no rights.

There may be the odd story here and there of a 'bastard' child making good as an adult but mostly because of not just the family wealth but the importance of the family name - everything was done in what we call a 'good ol'boy' way - as an adult the chances of being part of the great unwashed was greater and so the concept of bringing into the world one more child who would fill up the poor-houses or lay about on streets and lanes unemployable was a blight to society. Here my knee jerk reaction comes in but here goes - as usual the guy who thinks with another part of his anatomy than his brain is never blamed it is the product of his 'indiscretion' that is blamed.

[PatH]

I wonder if today this story represents more a homecoming journey in the mind after war and it could be why so many returning from Iraq are reading the Odyssey.- so that rather than being blown hither and yon and confronting monsters in real life it is a case of confronting the feelings not allowed during war but stay unexplored and must be traversed in order to have a full homecoming. 

Barb, I think that's brilliant.  That puts a whole different feel to the whole story.  And it fits in perfectly with the ending, where Odysseus' reunion with Penelope isn't quite smooth. 

Even if the Greeks didn't consciously know what we do now about stress in battle, a lot of the old myths describe psychological truths so accurately they can't be beat.

[PatH]

Remember Jane Austin's Sense and Sensibility how after the father dies they were forced out of the estate and by the good graces of a relative of the mother they had a humble home to move into with a meager allowance. She was not legally married and although on his deathbed he asked that she be cared for, legally she had no rights.

As the resident Jane Austin fanatic, I have to defend Mrs. Henry Dashwood, mother of the heroines of Sense and Sensibility.  She was legally married.  The inheritance problem was the result of a sloppy will, plus the untimely death of the heir who might have set things right.

[ginny]

Wow wow,  Wow, I just finished 11!  Talk about excitement.

We're going to try for 11 Friday, right?

Man o man there they all are!

I wonder if there's a reason for the order they come out.




I've got a million questions!

PatH: And it fits in perfectly with the ending, where Odysseus' reunion with Penelope isn't quite smooth.   I think we may be about to see another reason why in Chapter 11.

'Homer' is distressingly vague on this point. He seems intent on
making this trip home incredibly long,

That's a good point, Babi, wonder why, particularly? 20 years is a lOOONG time, could he not have accomplished the same thing in 10?

Or is it 20? I am thinking it's 20.

- there is a city library just south of Lakeland Airforce base in San Antonio that has had a Thursday night discussion group on the Odyssey for over a year now THAT is interesting, Barbara!  I'd sure like to hear some of their thoughts on this, wouldn't you? But as you say it might interfere with their own process. I wish they were online.

I am loving the far ranging discussion here and all the interesting things brought to the table.

[bookad]

JudeS--after reading your post about Penelopiad by Margaret Atwood, found my local library had a copy...have read the first 3 chapter today and thinking this may change my impressions of Penelope who up to now has seemed like an insipid character...it sure gives her more dimension and I am enjoying that

was trying to figure out if we were already into chapter 11 but your last post cleared that up for me Ginny....guess its not a question anymore
Deb

[JudeS]

Will be out fot the next four days. House full of guests. Will rejoin you on Monday if I have the energy.
Don't have too much fun while I'm gone.

[Frybabe]

Have a lovely holiday weekend Jude.

Ginny, Sisyphus is sure getting a workout. Here is a wonderful quote I ran across on the first page of P. J. O'Rourke's book, The Bachelor Home Companion which shows a picture of the author pushing a rock uphill.   

"Camus had it all wrong about the myth of Sisyphus - it's not symbolic of life, just housekeeping."

[roshanarose]

Ginny said:
IF all these characters are symbolic a dream did Roshannarose say some time back? I hope I've attributed that correctly, we've had so many fine ideas and comments,  if not and it was YOUR idea, please correct me,  then we CAN apply it today.

In reply he may have been eating asphodels, white waxy sort of flowers.  These flowers still grow in Greece and are used in MG to symbolise death and mourning.  I wonder if these flowers are similar to datura which is definitely hallucinogenic?  Think about how many times O encountrers "drugs" on his journey.  Helen gives him and Menelaus a soothing drink to relax them; Circe (Kirke) gives his men drugs that cause metamorphosis.  He didn't partake of the fruit of the jujube tree, but some of his men did.  I read somewhere that perhaps the soporific effect of the jujube (lotus) may have been because a very potent drink had been made through a similar process to that whis is now used for Sake, ie fermentation.

Also, Ginny, I noted that he seemed to have dreamt the whole Nausicaa story.  It was certainly surreal.

In Greek Yas sou is Γεία σου which roughly means Your (informal) Health.

Jude:  Thanks for the explanation about Zeus and O, it kind of makes sense in a very Greek way

[ginny]

Jude, we'll miss you, have a great time this weekend!

Thank you  Roshanarose  for that Yas sou is Γεία! In retrospect it appears that "George" was a great teacher. You have a point too on the drugs flowing throughout the tale so far,  asphodel!  The vision of Achilles moving through asphodel in Book 11,  elated at the news of his son,  is just fabulous. I love Book 11.

 hahaha Frybabe, that sure is true of my house. hahaaha

PatH, I  liked this: a lot of the old myths describe psychological truths so accurately they can't be beat.  I wonder if that's why people read them in part, and then are shocked to learn they were people, too? Some of them, of  course seem more like "us," whoever "we" are, and some don't.  I wonder what psychological truths we see in Book 11?


We're seeing O in his battle armor I think,  up until now, his "hero" suit, sort of a shield, and I think it's deliberate, even when he's crying he's not particularly approachable to us, there's  more there being hidden. Sort of like an onion,  Homer keeps peeling back the layers, contrasting now with flashbacks and then and it's hard really to get a grip on who he is.


Book 11 just blew me away, what in our literature or experience does it recall to you? (I have to start now, we're to have awful storms tomorrow)..

I keep thinking of A Christmas Carol. When the Ghost of Marley directs Scrooge to the window to look at the souls lamenting and here Odysseus is, plunged right into the middle of them.

Why do you think  Book 11 is in this story? What has it to do, really, with the adventure so far?

He's come ostensibly to see Tiresias, the seer, (I now understand the one in O Brother Where Art Thou better, they took it a lot from this). But Tiresias is more than a MapQuest, he'll say what's to happen.

It's a strange order they're coming out  in? Can we make anything of the order in which they come forward? I bet you anything Dante took his circles of Hell from this.

 And there's his mother, now I did think that was poignant, and we hear more about his father,too. So now we know what Laertes is doing off there in the mountains. Sounds like O is questioning Penelope's faithfulness just  a little?

He also gets advice from Agamemnon, wasn't that something? I actually felt a chill when Agamemnon began coming forward.  And then ALL of them! How exciting this must have been to hear 3000 years ago when these people were so well known!

Then came the ghost of Achilles, son of Peleus
And those of Patroclus and peerless Antilochus
And Ajax, who surpassed all the Danaans,
except Achilles, in looks and build.

I loved Achilles:

Don't try to sell me on death, Odysseus.
I'd rather be a hired hand back up on earth,
Slaving away for some poor dirt farmer,
Then lord it over all these withered dead.
But tell me about that boy of mine...

Loved that. This is just so fabulous, whoever he lets drink can speak the truth, whoever he won't let drink will fade back again.

I am confused on two things, maybe you all have a clearer picture of this.

Elpenor comes first:

First to come was the ghost of Elpenor,
Whose body still lay in Circe's hall.

And he says

Now I beg you...
When you put the gloom of Hades behind you
And beach your ship on the Isle of Aeaea
As I know you will, remember me, my lord.
Do not leave me unburied, unmourned (Sally was right)..

So O agrees he'll do that for him.

How is he going to do that? He's left... he's left Circe and is in Hades? He's not going BACK is he?

Also I was most confused on Heracles. Greek art is full of his apotheosis, his rise to sit with the gods, one of the few semi mortals  make that great  honor. But here it's:

His phantom that is, for Heracles himself
Feasts with the gods and has as his wife
Beautiful Hebe, daughter of great Zeus...

This image for some reason really confused me. O's mother has already told him what they are made of, what they consist of there and how they became what they are upon death (wasn't that SOMETHING about the soul?)_so why does Hercules have a separate phantom?

And he's pretty scary.  I don't understand the phantom thing, or why he came out? What did you get out of his words which "beat down on me like dark wings?"

I tell you, you'd have to go a long way to beat this chapter, and was that actually O talking to Agamemnon who talks about being persecuted by Zeus (somewhere around 435) , the "house of Atreus from the beginning,
Through the will of women."

!!!

THIS is a chapter!! What with  the little boy in USA Today, today's paper,  talking about Heaven,  and Time Magazine saying What if There's No Hell this week,  this is a perfect time to read this and isn't it absolutely splendid!

What struck YOU about this book?

[Frybabe]

What's with Achilles? Did he change his mind once he got to Hades? Isn't he the one who, given the choice, chose a short life but lasting fame over living a long, ordinary, forgettable life? Now he gripes.

Ajax. Why wouldn't he speak to Odysseus? I am afraid I skipped through most of the chapter. I wasn't following Pope too well. I am going back and trying it again. I must have been tired the first time. The Christmas Carol image is helping, believe it or not, to grasp the action better.

[Babi]

Why do you think  Book 11 is in this story? What has it to do, really, with the adventure so far?

 GINNY, I saw your question, and what sprang to my mind was that song from "A Funny
Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum".  "Something for Everyone!"   Homer..singular or
plural...is a minstrel entertaining the crowd.  And who doesn't like a good ghost story?

[JoanK]

BABI: good point. And it's a way to get in a lot of stories about a lot of different people. Including the umpteenth telling of the Agamemmnon/Clytemnestra story. This makes me think that again that the Odyssey is definitely a melding together of different sources. I THINK this version of Ag's death is slightly different from an earlier one (although I couldn't ind the referance).

FRY: you're working a lot harder than I am by reading Pope. His poetry on top of homer's. Is it worth it? Do you also want to look at a modern version?

GINNY: "Don't try to sell me on death" Lombardo has Achilles saying. I find these passages in non-poetic language in Lombardo somewhat jarring. But when Lombardo was with us in the Iliad discussion, he said that they are very true to the spirit of the original. Homer's greek is not high flown and poetical, but very down-to-earth. What do you all think?

[JoanK]

And what do you think of this version of life after death. Did this become part of the Greek religion? How depressing!