Author Topic: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1  (Read 87529 times)

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2011, 10:31:48 PM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.


Major Pettigrew's Last Stand  by Helen Simonson

April Book Club Online  

"When Major Pettigrew, a retired British army major in a small English village, embarks on an unexpected friendship with the widowed Mrs. Ali, who runs the local shop, trouble erupts to disturb the bucolic serenity of the village and of the Major’s carefully regimented life.
 
"As the Major and Mrs. Ali discover just how much they have in common, including an educated background and a shared love of books, they must struggle to understand what it means to belong and how far the obligations of family and tradition can be set aside for personal freedom. Meanwhile, the village itself, lost in its petty prejudices and traditions, may not see its own destruction coming."  New York Times  (best seller)

"...a wry and witty love story set in a little English village where small town prejudices, and race and religious intolerances are alive and well. With gentle insight, the author captures the thrill of falling in love after 60 and the disruption romance can introduce into a well-settled life."

Discussion Schedule:

April 1-7 ~ Chapters 1-6
April 8 - April 15 ~ Chapters 7-12
(E-readers ~ Last lines in Chapter 6:
 ..."his sandwich seemed as appetizing  now as two rubber mats filled with horsehair.  He pushed the plate away and signaled Tom to bring another lager.")
 
*****
Some Topics for Consideration
April 1-7~ Chapters 1 - 6

1.  Some of you have commented on H. Simonson's beautiful writing.  What is it about her writing style that you find so pleasing?

2. How do their differences make the Major and Mrs. Ali an unlikely pair?  What is their common attraction?

3. What do the Churchills represent to the Major so that he struggles with Marjorie’s legal claim to the guns? What in the Major’s mind, would he be selling if the guns were sold to the highest bidder?

4. There are differences in how families keep or dispose of their departed loved one's possessions. How did you or your family members make the choice? How did you feel using something your loved one held as special?

5 What are the Major's feelings for his son?  Do you think he's fair in his interpretation of Roger's motives and actions?

6. What sort of subtle prejudices or stereotyping do you find in these opening chapters?




   
  Discussion Leaders:  Barbara & JoanP

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2011, 10:33:21 PM »
Missed that - sure sounds like you've nailed the dates Callie - wow...so it is a current story.  Stop to think some of the characteristics of the younger set like Roger would not have fit an earlier time  but now thanks to you Callie we really have it dated.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Gumtree

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #42 on: April 03, 2011, 04:48:09 AM »
I'm caught up with the six chapters too - stayed up late last night to read them so everything hasn't really settled in my mind quite yet.

The time frame seems to be contemporary but now and then I found a few things which seemed somewhat 'dated' - can't think what exactly.

The Major is a trifle set in his ways as perhaps an ex military man cum English master would be. He expects people to make concessions to his way of thinking and he thinks people should come to him - Mrs Ali for instance 'had not called in to check on him'  Despite his self proclaimed 'good manners' he himself had been ill-mannered toward Mrs Ali by accepting the ride home from the funeral with Roger when she was already there waiting for him - yet still he expects her to call on him...

The Major is drawn as being a trifle 'old fashioned' to me. One of my brothers was a military man of rank who despite being around ten years older than the Major was much more 'with it' as far as the modern world goes.  The book mentions Pettigrew being born in Lahore to a military man of the Raj but I didn't notice where Pettigrew had served during his service. I doubt it would have been in India as he wouldn't have graduated from military college until around 1960. My brother graduated in 1952 so I can't help but compare his and the Major's service careers. I'm trying to think of which arenas  the British army was involved in during Pettigrew's time - does anyone know?

The guns are interesting and appear to be a focal point of the story - they are an obsession with the Major.
Churchill guns are real - this is from the E.J Churchill Gunmakers website:

Quote
E.J.Churchill Gun makers

The E. J. Churchill Gunmakers have been synonymous with fine hand made English shotguns for over 100 years, today E. J. Churchill Gunmakers still uphold these qualities throughout its range of the very best hand built guns and rifles.

The newest addition to our portfolio is the E. J. Churchill Continental range, a collection of elegant, reliable side by side shotguns built to our specification by our Spanish partner.

These guns have all the attributes of a traditional English shotgun at an affordable price.


Young Roger seems to be somewhat of a trial to his father. I think he is not all bad but seems to be immature and still trying to find himself. He is easily influenced by others - their lifestyle and what they have is perfect to him and he wants it too as long as it is expensive and perhaps trendy. Perhaps he will grow during the story.

We have no compunction in rabbit hunting in Australia - rabbits were introduced into this country in order for bored Englishmen in the colony to have a little hunting - they overran the entire continent and have had to be destroyed. We are still dealing with the problem today.
Kangaroos are also sometimes in plague proportions. Farmers and graziers go 'roo shooting at night to cull the numbers but at least the 'roos have a sporting chance though once they get caught in the truck's spotlight they are usually a frozen target.

I would never have connected Lord Dagenham being called 'Double D' by Ferguson as having anything to do with 'Dallas' but can't see where the 'Double' comes into it. Dagenham is not a Duke but one of the 'landed gentry' and impoverished at that whom the Major hopes to 'talk up' to the rank of an Earl for Marjorie's benefit in the hope of getting his hands on the other gun.     
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

Steph

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2011, 06:20:10 AM »
I loved the picture of the houses all in different colors.. If you visit
Charleston, you possibly can remember their rainbow row as well. I just envisioned villages in England as being thatche and plain colors.
I like the Major.. maybe because I am 73.. He does allow himself to be bullied by the village women, No idea why.. I am not so hidebound as he is, but I do have some things that I wince at with my own children.. They are late 40's, but still seem to regard tshirts as ok for anything.. Sigh.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

JudeS

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2011, 02:26:07 PM »
I have read the book and enjoyed it greatly.  I thought at first it might be "fuddy-duddy" but as I went along it was a very modern and charming novel. In fact I would call it touching.
Both my parents were English and I sometimes think i relate better to English thought patterns than to American ones.

However one of your questions caught my interest. What happened to the British army from 1960 to 2000?
 (the probable time of the Major's service).I looked it up and here is a summary:
Today the British army is the third largest in Europe. British troops are deployed in Kosovo,Cyprus, Afghanistan and Germany. Though the British Raj is no more the army continued to fight Colonial wars in Aden, Cyprus,Kenya and Malaya. In 1982 they recaptured the Falkland Islands from Argentina. Probably the biggest force was deployed in N.Ireland to support the Republican paramilitary groups. Some 50,00 troops fought in the first Gulf War.

My questions to the author are: "Where did she picture the majority of his service took place?" And secondly "How did his service influence his personality?"

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2011, 02:40:39 PM »
Like you Steph I think of rural Britain with earth tone homes, especially a house described as having a thatched roof - but then in the story wasn't it the solicitor's - no the accountant's office that was in the strawberry colored building.

Jude the book almost sounds as if he was in India as well, but that was his father - let's see the Major - hmmm maybe the Falklands - remember a few years ago and Britain was fighting for the Falkland Island's off South America - and wasn't the British army in both Korea and war in the Balkans - and what about South Africa or was that all South African troops. Of course he could have been serving and never leave - oh wait a  minute - maybe Ireland - but anyhow, he could have never left Britain and still served as a Major.

Gum I think the talk of killing wildlife is something those who live next to or in the middle of nature see differently - Please folks, even hunting bunnies it really is so humane - you have no idea what it is like - we are going through it here in Austin and it is horrible - nightmares are frequent and every night-sound is jarring.

Please, the hunters, regardless how macho and insensitive they sound is soooo much better compared to when there is no longer hunting in the area.  We have upset the balance of nature - even the ranches and farms upset the balance. What we have done by building in a pristine area, bringing livestock into new range, enlarging our cities and town is as cruel to most animals as all the stories of forced breeding we read about that is the destruction of female dogs and cats.

Few communities wants the deer and they try all sorts of techniques to think that by not feeding them they will go away - they don't - we have lovely lawns where years ago there was scrub land - important - when land is used for another purpose it disrupts the area that a group of animals call home - many animals, especially white tail deer only have a range of a couple of miles - therefore, herds were naturally separate.

Because an area was disrupted that herd moves into the area of another herd providing more does/hinds for breeding - plus the biggie - when a herd or flock or any wild animal grouping is under stress there is a biological fact - they reproduce more litters, fawns etc. and more numbers for each birth. Once there is a spike in the size of the herds we have more grazing and many more bushes, trees, etc. that were never touched before are eaten. Another concern - you know the story - large animals are like 2 year olds that dart or run across the road with no concern.

Rabbits are also pushed into new areas already occupied - remember the movie Watership Down - only there is no peaceful community on top of the hill - folks do not like that the plants surrounding their homes are eaten to the root and at night you can hardly step out the front door without tripping over a rabbit.

Here in Austin up till about 20 to 25 years ago it was natural for a member of the family to shoot an animal as the family's meat - in season or out it was a wink of the eye we all knew about and a deer was taken or a wild turkey or a few of those rabbits - the hunters are no longer and shooting a gun in town is no longer safe.  Oh a few young people take down an animal now and then at night with a bow and arrow but not enough to make a dent in the over population that came about with more lawns for forage and more stress multiplying the numbers. More births weaken the animals with a weak strain, an imitation of its wild state then animals are subject to disease that can affect us.  

Even using the land for ranching alters the balance mostly again, stress leads to more births. Multiple births decimates the land so that it is less than scrub land within a short few years.

And so removal - ha - that is where visions of Dachau take over - where there is a large concentration of animals attempted is a sweep using nets, with panicked animals scrambling for their life, banging into rocks and scraping themselves on the streets so they are bloody only to escape for one more night. Then the shooting starts - using a silencer with men chasing animals in and out of every nook and corner till for instance a herd of deer are down from over 70 to less than 20 which is what the area can support and still have healthy animals.

As to the rabbits that is ohhh - when they are netted bullets are not wasted so that these guys are carrying by their hind legs 10 or more at a time tossing them into the bed of a pickup into a nightly mound.

And so, unless everyone thinks once we move into an area that gives us the power and rights to get rid of all the wild animals then please regard hunters as caring for wildlife - they are the only predators for some of the animals - few of  us want coyotes racing through our neighborhoods eating all the dogs and cats that are out at night just to keep a natural predator for the wildlife - and so we have to take responsibility for the disruption we cause. Leaving them alone to multiply - biology takes over and we are responsible for cruelty to female animals.

Yes, I know a soapbox - but it is a brutal experience to witness that is far worse than a hunter bagging a few animals each season- with many hunters the population of wildlife is kept to what is healthy for the land, the strain and ourselves. If nothing else hunters save us the cost of  foundation plants and fewer risks of auto accidents.

I do agree that any animal sport can be taken too far - just as we learned of chicken fighting and dog fighting some animal hunts pander to ego rather than to the responsibility we all carry because we share a world with wild life.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2011, 02:48:48 PM »
Sorry folks - I just had to get it out there - you have no idea the horror that is when we think animals are better off  not hunted - I will honestly say no more...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanP

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #47 on: April 03, 2011, 04:32:56 PM »
Gum, so glad you've caught up.  This discussion is moving so fast!  You and Jude ask what I sense to be an important question regarding where the Major had served in the military. -  What do we know at this point?  The Major's father received those treasued guns from the hands of the Maharajah.  "An Indian prince honorable enough to reward a British officer's courageous service in the hours when all around were howling for British eviction."

As you have pointed out, the story seems to focus on keeping those guns...while the rest of the family seems to be howling for the money that can be gotten for them.

We have this story, and then we have the Pakistani presence in England.  Can anyone fill in the possible connection? Rosemary has explained that there are many Pakistani shops and businesses throughout England - on every street corner.  Do we know when they came to England?

Jude, do you suspect that the Major had an unpleasant experience while in service, which would explain why he wants to hold on to the old English traditions? 

Will put  your questions for Helen Simonson in the heading right now.

JoanP

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #48 on: April 03, 2011, 04:39:00 PM »
Steph, we're going down to Charleston in two weeks.  Will watch for the colored houses.  I remember them in Savannah - also, Cape May - in New Jersey.

And speaking of New Jersey - what did you think of the American industrialist, Frank Ferguson?  Is Lord Dagenham really his friend?  Frank - "Double F" seems quite familiar with him - choosing to disregard "His Lordship," in favor of "Double D."  I don't think this had anything to do with Dallas, though.  Didn't it slip, just once in these opening chapters that his first name started with a D?  Hence "Double D?"

Back later this evening...some interesting comments made today about how touching you are finding the story.  Me too.  I'll share my favorite incident...and wonder if it got to you too.

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #49 on: April 03, 2011, 06:56:06 PM »
Wow - found this great site for the Kipling Society that includes this page of Kipling for Soldiers - The page includes links to some of his stories.

And here is a link to the Kipling society of Australia
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #50 on: April 03, 2011, 07:00:38 PM »
Here is a blog with the list of every character named in the book Character list: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand Looks like you nailed it Joan on Frank Ferguson, a rich American from N.J.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #51 on: April 03, 2011, 07:06:41 PM »
Great info Jude - how quickly these wars go by and yet, they seem to be a greater part of life than we realize.

Quote
Today the British army is the third largest in Europe. British troops are deployed in Kosovo, Cyprus, Afghanistan and Germany. Though the British Raj is no more the army continued to fight Colonial wars in Aden, Cyprus,Kenya and Malaya. In 1982 they recaptured the Falkland Islands from Argentina. Probably the biggest force was deployed in N.Ireland to support the Republican paramilitary groups. Some 50,00 troops fought in the first Gulf War
.

This web site does not seem to be complete however it does add some more history to the Sussex Regiment
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #52 on: April 03, 2011, 07:21:05 PM »
I don't think I have ever had a samosa - looking to find out what they were here is a recipe -  potatoes  hmmm.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Gumtree

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #53 on: April 03, 2011, 09:01:26 PM »
The blog listing all the characters still doesn't enlighten us as to why Lord Dagenham is 'Double D' - it just refers to him as Lord Dagenham - lord of the village. So we're still in the dark on that one.

Jude: thanks for the info concerning the British Army's deployments during the Major's likely service. The later deployments would probably be after his time - He would have retired probably in his early 40s - sometime around early1980's by my reckoning if he is 68 when the story opens in 200?  Pettigrew then spent some time as a schoolmaster after he retired from the army -  It's not vitally important but just interested me. 
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

JudeS

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #54 on: April 03, 2011, 09:40:39 PM »
Gumtree
Somehow what you wrote loosened something in my brain. If the major only spent 20 to 25 years in the army and then became a schoolmaster then he is holding onto those Churchill guns to fill a hole in his own self esteem. Perhaps his career, as opposed to his fathers career, was a bit dowdy?
His son certainly didn't follow in his military footsteps. He looks upon the guns not as a family heirllom but as a source of cash. Oh, how Britain has changed in the last hundred years. Perhaps that is one of the points of the novel. Intended, or not intended goal? Ask the author.
America, especially where I live in the heart of Silicon valley is full to overflowing with Indian and Pakistan engineers and their families,including their old folks. There is one elderly gentleman dressed in native garb, including his head gear, who, when he catches me gardening, stands and talks and points in his native tongue.I don't understand a word but do smile and nod.Most of the older folks around here have not adopted the American way of dressing so very often we see colorful costumes (actually clothes) going by.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #55 on: April 03, 2011, 11:00:59 PM »
owww good point Jude
Quote
Perhaps his career, as opposed to his fathers career, was a bit dowdy? His son certainly didn't follow in his military footsteps.

Gumtree someone will figure it out - the double D - the advantage of a group read...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanP

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #56 on: April 03, 2011, 11:36:37 PM »
Jude, I think you and Gum answered you own question about the effect of the Major's military service on his personaity.  As you point out, he did not have the same stellar military success his father had had  - no one presented him with anything like the Churchills in gratitude for his bravery.  Shall I leave the question in the queue for the author, or are you satisfied with your conclusion?  You and Gum make quite a pair!

There were a number of references to the casual use of first names...something the British did not do, but the Americans think nothing of.  Roger's girlfriend, Sandy - remember her?  The one with those  "scimitar legs"  and that short skirt?  She called the Major "Ernest" when they first met. (He winced at that, do you remember?  What  do your children's friends - and spouses call you? I'm curious?)

Then of course there is Frank Ferguson, calling Lord Dagenham Double D.  Since you aren't satisfied with my idea that "Double F" (Frank Ferguson) is referring to his friend as "Double D" because those are his initials - and I  admit I've paged through the book looking for mention of Lord Dagenham's first name without success -  I've added that to the list of questions for the author.)

The one that really gets me is the Major who continues to call his friend Mrs. Ali, "Mrs.Ali" - Do you think he will ever as her to "tutoyer"? - that's French for using the familiar pronouns instead of the more formal "vous"  How long will it be before he calls her by her first name?  Will she remain Mrs. Ali throughout?  Maybe Frank Ferguson will call her by her first name?  Or Sandy with the scimitar legs?

JoanP

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #57 on: April 03, 2011, 11:45:20 PM »
Barbara,while paging through the chapters looking for the Dagenham name, I came across those samosas you mentioned.  Mrs. Ali keeps a plate of them on the counter in her shop..  Do you think one would find them in any Pakistani shop - or is this her specialty.  They look yummy!

"These stuffed savory pastries are a traditional Indian favorite. Lamb meat and spices are cooked together to create a mouthwatering filling for the easy to make dough. The recipe may seem complex, but it's actually fairly simple"

I'll leave the "roly polys" for someone else to look up.  Remember them?  Tom serves them in the club on Fridays only...what's your guess?

Gumtree

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #58 on: April 04, 2011, 05:17:03 AM »
Roly Poly Pudding - They used to be very popular in Britain and I believe they were standard boarding school fare. My mother made them occasionally during the war. They're not exactly health food.

You need  a suet crust pastry and your favourite jam (jelly to you) - just roll out the pastry, spread the jam in the centre leaving an edge around the margin - wet the edges of pastry with water and then roll it up and pinch the edges together. Put it in a floured cloth and boil in a large saucepan of water for about 1-1/2 to 2 hours. Serve with custard, or cream.

You can use other fillings like golden syrup, even honey or fruit - apples with a few raisins are nice.
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

Gumtree

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #59 on: April 04, 2011, 05:42:59 AM »
I agree that the Major did not have a stellar military career - after all he did only achieve the rank of Major. OK but fairly pedestrian - the rank of a full Colonel or Brigadier would indicate he had had a successful active career.

First Names are de rigeur in Australia - I can't think of many who call me Mrs. these days.  My children have long called me by my Christian name and as they grew up they started to introduce me to their friends that way - I rather like it except when a 15 year old in the pharmacy or somewhere addresses me by my first name -I'm getting cranky nowadays.

The Major calls Mrs Ali by that name because he is a formal sort of guy - he thinks of her as Mrs Ali too - at least for the moment. 

There are many Indian and Pakistani folk living in Australia - some have assimilated, some not - some wear traditional clothing - some are very westernised in that respect. They all maintain the cultural values of their own country and will dress traditionally on their special days. It is the ones born and educated here who break away and become westernised.
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #60 on: April 04, 2011, 09:19:22 AM »
This article is interesting regarding Pakistanis in England:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Pakistanis

And this paragraph:

"British Pakistanis have the second highest relative poverty rate in Britain, ahead of only British Bangladeshis, though some have established highly successful businesses. A large number of British Pakistanis are self-employed, with a significant proportion working as taxi drivers or in family-run businesses in the retail sector" - Wikipedia

I believe Mrs. Ali's husband was a very patient, nice fellow, unlike the nephew,  and the two of them, husband and wife, ran the shop together.  Perhaps the  nephew needs a wife, but then where would Mrs. Ali go.  She doesn't want to live with her relatives and become a babysitter.


BarbStAubrey

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #61 on: April 04, 2011, 12:05:15 PM »
Gumtree I was fine reading along the recipe for the Roly poly - dough spread with jam till  you after it is rolled it is boiled :o - now that I didn't expect - deep fried - maybe, or baked but my goodness boiled - I guess when they are lifted from the boiling water they look more like a giant dumpling -  the taste I imagined hmm not so sure now.

First names have taken on a life haven't they - we were brought up to call close friends of my parents as Aunt or Uncle before the first name - it was a bit of a shock to hear my daughter no longer call me Mom - now she goes back and forth between Mom and Barbara.

I notice their friends often calling me grandma since my relationship with my grandboys is so front and center and they have children the same age and are the children are all good friends.

The Major comes across to me as someone who lives by form - his mannerisms I do not even think are based on respect for the person as much as respect for form.

Ella interesting that the poverty level is so low among the Pakistanis - I guess it takes a couple of generations to build - from what I understand they left everything behind when the big switch happened between Packston and India. Generations of living in the same house and if  you were on a piece of land working the same land for generations so that there was no housing expense in the budget and now all of a sudden they were starting from scratch.  Of course we are used to seeing that phenomenon here in the states as each wave of immigrants start with nothing and it takes a couple of generations of hard work with self denial to give the next generation the leg up till they are in the mainstream..

Thanks Ella for the link - most helpful...

How about the books that Mrs. Ali arranged to have available to her from the library - wow - even the Major's choice of reading material is not shabby.  Have you read any of the authors and titles mentioned?
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

CallieOK

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #62 on: April 04, 2011, 01:31:35 PM »
I noticed that the Major isn't reading any current books, though.
His wife has been gone for six years and it seems to me that he sort of "faded into the woodwork" when she was no longer a reason for him to "socialize" in the village.

So typical that the village ladies are still trying to get him and Grace together.  Why do so many, especially those who are "coupled", think that anyone who isn't...should be?  This especially seems to apply to those who used to be part of a couple.

Question 6 asked about subtle prejudices.  The one that jumped out at me was the local ladies (finally) going into the Ali's store but never including her in any village events - and referring to them as "our Pakistanis".

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #63 on: April 04, 2011, 05:06:27 PM »
Callie don't you love it "our" Pakistanis - nothing sublet about the village ladies is there. Grace comes across as a nice person who could even soften the Major's right angles.

Alec seems quite the cut-up - teasing the ladies in committee that he is an Indian, and yet, in a typical man's way asking after him while they were playing golf.

This story, although recent in time is reminding me of the Mapp and Lucia series by Benson that Ginny introduced us to years ago. Maybe, because village life does not change that much.

Some years ago I found and purchased a series of  Mapp and Lucia on video tape and while reading Major Pettigrew's Last Stand I often see the characters as those in Mapp and Lucia. The golf, the ladies in committee, the Major's decorum, even the local grocery except in the 1920s and 30s there was not yet an influx of Pakistani immigration that started with the division of Pakistan and India with mostly religious leanings determining which nation would be home.

When you read, do you make a mental picture of the characters?  If you do, how are you envisioning the look of the Major and some of the other characters?
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

salan

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #64 on: April 04, 2011, 05:52:23 PM »
Callie, Skipping a tiny bit ahead, in chapt. 8 the major says that "It was one of the things he had to look out for, living alone--it was important to keep up standards, to not let things become fuzzy around the edges."  I think this pretty much describes the major.  Perhaps his years in the military re-enforced his idea of the importance of keeping up his standards. 

I loved the Major's thoughts on his son when he stated that he wondered how he featured in his son''s calendar.  He imagined himself flagged with a small yellow sticky note-important but not time sensitive, perhaps.  I love this book and the author's way of expressing thoughts.  She paints vivid characters. 

Sally

serenesheila

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #65 on: April 04, 2011, 06:26:51 PM »
I remember thinking about giving up early in our book, when I read it the first time.  I am so very happy that I continued to read.  IMO, our author paints pictures with the words she uses. 

I love the major, and Mrs. Ali.  The only character so far that I dislike is Roger's girlfriend.  When she presumed to call the Major, by his first name, she turned me off.  I can't imagine calling anyone 30 years my senior, by their first name when first meeting them.  I am stuned that Roger finds her attractive.

I find the major kind, sensitive, and lonely.  Mrs. Ali is intelligent, gentle and lonely, too.  They both are widowed, lov books, and find much to talk about with each other.  They both enjoy most of the traditions in their lives. 

Roger suffers from too much hubris.  Material things are very important to hiim.  Both f his parents seem more down to earth.  I think that both Roger, and Mrs. Ali's nephew are cut from the same cloth.

Sheila

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #66 on: April 04, 2011, 06:37:51 PM »
You had me chuckling again Sally - it was such a great phrase wasn't it -
Quote
flagged with a small yellow sticky note-important but not time sensitive,

Interesting Sheila,
Quote
I think that both Roger, and Mrs. Ali's nephew are cut from the same cloth.
Hadn't thought of that - they are both full of themselves aren't they - and they both have definite ideas how the older generation they believe they are responsible for should act to benefit their viewpoint - how else do you see the similarity?
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanP

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #67 on: April 04, 2011, 08:06:32 PM »
Quote
"IMO, our author paints pictures with the words she uses."
 Sheila, I was just thinking along those same lines.  The strength of the author's writing is in the details, don't you think?   I am overwhelmed with the sum total of the details. The words, the metaphors - each page chock full of word pictures used to show us the characters, not only how they look, but their inner thoughts and prejudices.

It seems that everyone is guilty of racial stereotyping one way or another.  Not surprising, feelings are hurt, no matter how assimilated the society has become.  I think Helen S. gets it just right.

"There are many Indian and Pakistani folk living in Australia - some have assimilated, some have not."  Gum, your comment reminded me of the description of the new lawyer in the Tewkesbury law firm.  Mortimer Teale - what a snake!  He is a low type...H.S. wastes no time letting us know how she sees him - through the details:
"People said he was from London, which they mentioned with a twist of the lips as if London were the back alleys of Calcutta or some notorious penal colony, like Australia."
Do you resent Australia's portrayal in a negative light, Gum?  


This morning I had to call HP for continuing computer problems.  This fellow needed to take control of my computer to find out why the "SLEEP"  mode kept coming back on. To give him control, I had to fill out the permission screen.  One of the boxes that needed selecting was HIS location.  He told me to select "PK" from the list.  I asked him if he was in Pakistan.  His quick reply was "NO!"  Then after a pause, he added, I'm in India.  Clearly he was not happy with my question.  Clearly this is still a sensitive area, after all these years since  Partition.

JoanP

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #68 on: April 04, 2011, 08:32:14 PM »
Thanks for that article, Ella.  With the low poverty level among the Pakistanis, it is natural to assume that the educational level is low too, isn't it?  And then it follows they are illiterate.  That would be the stereotype, but certainly it is not true of Mrs. Ali.  The woman speaks 6 languages!  Her father was an academic and read extensively. And so does she.  The village ladies don't see this.  Roger doesn't see this.  They just see  a "Pakistani" and  the stereotype that goes with it.

Callie, I think our Major reads - he just prefers to reread his old leather bound books to library books - Wordsworth, Samuel Johnson, Kipling.

Barbara asks how we "see"  the characters.  I'm guessing that because the author supplies so much detail that we are all seeing pretty much the same characters- what do you think?  The Major looks "old" - probably older than his age.  Come on, 68 isn't that old!  But he is painted as much older, perhaps ill, can't  move at times. What do you think is wrong with him?  Mrs. Ali is vigorous, a fast driver, a fast walker, smooth, tight skin.  I can see how the Major would be attracted to her - more so than he is to Grace, but really don't know what she sees in him.

I see him unhappy,   cranky -  woebegone.  Sad. This is  understandable - he has just lost his brother.  And yet, paradoxically, he "felt their was no more fulfilling work than to make Mrs. Ali laugh."   A delightful thought!  I mean think about it - is there anyone in your life who feels  the most important thing in life is to make you happy?  Make you laugh?


Gumtree

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #69 on: April 05, 2011, 02:44:48 AM »
Quote
"People said he was from London, which they mentioned with a twist of the lips as if London were the back alleys of Calcutta or some notorious penal colony, like Australia."
Do you resent Australia's portrayal in a negative light, Gum?
 

JoanP   'Resent' is perhaps too strong a word. I must say I was certainly surprised as I read those words. Transportation of convicts to the Australian colonies ended in 1868.  Self governance was granted in 1890. Then our colonial past ended, once and for all, more than a century ago with the proclamation by Queen Victoria that the colonies of Australia would be federated as a nation and known as The Commonwealth of Australia on 1 January 1901.

Nonetheless, even within Australia, the stigma of the convict past endured until recent times -say the last 30-40 years as genealogists uncovered their ancestors' history and historians began to include the convicts in mainstream history. In the main, they find stories of courage, determination and resourcefulness though there are also those whom one wouldn't want to own but overall the convict contribution to the  early development of Australia is immeasurable. The early free settlers would have starved to death but for the convicts and their work.
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rosemarykaye

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #70 on: April 05, 2011, 03:42:38 AM »
Hello - an internet connection has sprung up from somewhere, not sure how long it will last as it is definitely not "mine"!  I am typing this standing in the kitchen, the flat is first floor (I think in the US that is 2nd) and usually we can see right across to the hills of Fife, but today they are all shrouded in mist.  So all I can see are the rooftops and tenements of the New Town, which is in fact a great view in its own right.

I am sorry to say that the feeling about Australia being a land full of convicts still lives on in the older generation here - my mother has been very embarrassingly heard to say "well, Australians are all descended from convicts" - this when one of her very best friends is a lovely Australian lady from a much higher social strata than my mother.  However, I don't think anyone younger than my mother would have these thoughts (she is in her 80s) - they wouldn't even occur to my generation or my children's. The same is true of Pakistanis - mother used to have a Pakistani neighbour about whom she would never have said a bad word, but "Pakistanis" in general is a different thing for many people - as everywhere, it is the uneducated who hang on to these ideas, convinced that any immigrant is taking their jobs/houses/women, and unfortunately inflamed by the rhetoric (if it can be graced with that word) of the BNP and their like.  These things always get worse in difficult economic times.  Having said that, my former boss, who was not uneducated, but had never left the city in which he was born, had very similar opinions, always preceded by the standard disclaimer "I'm not racist but...".

The irony of it all is that my mother has never moved more than 3 miles from where she was born in London, which in her opinion is perfect, but - as shown in the quote about Mortimer Teale - people living outside London usually have a very dim view of it.  Up here in Scotland there is huge resentment about the way that so much power is centralised down there, and a strong feeling that David Cameron and his ilk have not the faintest idea about life outside the capital.  Similarly, friends living in Cornwall think everyone from London is a "grockle" - someone who comes down to the West Country, buys a second home, walks around in a Barbour and Hunter wellies, and pretends to be a Country Person for 2 weeks.  My beloved Wendy Webber books satirise the second home owners mercilessly, and show just what the real locals think of them.

Joan P - I think the only "person" whose mission in life was to make me laugh was my late lamented Golden Retriever!  he was a complete clown and loved rolling around on his back with his legs in the air, or running round in circles chasing is tail.  I am back living with my 2 Siamese again now, and whilst I love them devotedly, and they are often very funny, like all cats everything they do is for their own comfort or entertainment, I am just the facilitator  :)  I can't think of a single family member whose only interest is to make me happy - can anyone?   I can well understand Mrs Ali's attraction to the major on that basis alone - he wants to please her, he is interested in her, he makes few demands and doesn't expect her to change.  Wonderful!  Can I have his number?   ;)

That's a great point, Sheila, about the similarities between Roger and Mrs Ali's nephew, - but I still don't think either of them is a bad person.  They are just young, and the young have all these convictions that, in later years, we usually soften up about.  There is a mug you an get here with the inscription "Better ask your teenagers' opinion now, while they still know everything"!

I also don't think Roger's girlfriend is a bad person - but I have read the whole book, so I will keep quiet, as I think my view of her changed later in the story.

Incidentally, going back to the Pakistani issue - we had a huge wave of immigration here in the 1970s (I think it was then), when the dictator Idi Amin expelled all of the British Asians from Uganda.  I am not sure if they were Pakistanis or not, but that's when lots of them arrived here.  i think prior to that our largest immigrant population was probably from the Carribean - lots of West Indians arrived here in the 1950s and 1960s, they were very badly treated indeed and refused entry to many places.  Now of course they are several generations down the line, and even my mother's generation more or less accepts them.  I think, however, that people from Jamaica, Barbados, etc integrated much more easily - maybe the religious differences were not so great or something, I'm not sure.  However, we did see in Little Bee how badly unauthorised immigrants from anywhere but "successful" countries (ie the USA and Western Europe) can be treated - the girl from Jamaica suffered just as much as Little Bee.

Better stop now before my internet luck runs out,

Rosemary

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #71 on: April 05, 2011, 04:15:27 AM »
Interesting isn't it Gumtree how stereotypes hang on and on and on...

Ahh Rosemary, you posted as I was searching for these links - I am so glad you bring to us the view from up close - and  yes, Roger's girl does turn out not to be a bad sort doesn't she - rather nice in fact - but then Roger isn't a  total loss either is he - well all that is to come but it does relieve tension about these two knowing they do change from the view we have of them in these first chapters.

Forgot about 'Idi Amin' - history goes by so fast that we easily forget some of the damage as communities of people adapt to the changes.

PBS had a series that included Judy Dench called "As Time Goes By" - older couple who find each other after a lifetime lived after the loss of a letter from Korea when they were young and in love. Included in the series Lionel Hardcastle (Geoffrey Palmer) is given by his father the family home and there are a few shows devoted to just that - folks who drive the locals to annoyed silence as they prance around in disrespect of them and the traditions of the community.

Here is a link to some UK Salwar Kameez the type of dress worn by Mrs. Ali.

This photo is to me wonderful - there is Roger closest to the vehicle in his Barbour jacket - not sure that any of these fellows fit my picture of the Major - in this picture they are standing too casually and I picture the major in a casual shoulders down stance but feet apart standing with his gun crooked in his arm wearing a jacket with sleeves. Lunch break on Private Estate
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Gumtree

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #72 on: April 05, 2011, 04:18:26 AM »
 I've had trouble getting in to this site this afternoon and lost part of my post - I meant to add this -

 I see Simonsen's comment as uncalled for as is the reference to Calcutta. I think she could have made the same point by using a large and overcrowded but unnamed city and penal colonies in general (there have been many), rather than the specific reference to Calcutta and Australia. I think it a pity her editors were not more stringent there.

 But of course, Australians are well used to being denigrated and seen in a negative light both personally and as a nation. Rosemary's comment here is very apropos:

Quote
am sorry to say that the feeling about Australia being a land full of convicts still lives on in the older generation here - my mother has been very embarrassingly heard to say "well, Australians are all descended from convicts

I shouldn't say it but those words are sometimes said, albeit tongue in cheek, by Australians about their fellows and often referring to those who live in Sydney where the highest concentration of convicts were and where some of the less desirable attributes of convict ancestors are sometimes evident among the politicians.

 It's OK when we're talking among ourselves. But not so Ok when writers and commentators around the world often use Australia and Australians to describe what they see as the worst of our western civilisation whereas in fact, it is a well kept secret that we and our country are the best.  :D

Simonsen shows us yet again that these sentiments have not yet died among folk younger than Rosemary's mother.

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Gumtree

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #73 on: April 05, 2011, 04:23:22 AM »
We're posting together Barbara - yes I can see Roger but not the Major - In my mind Pettigrew is physically more like David Niven but without the sense of humour.
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BarbStAubrey

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #74 on: April 05, 2011, 04:45:21 AM »
Gumtree  ;) we American  have to live with a cartoon of the author's version of the Rich American Businessman in Real Estate - Real Estate yet - satin's business - most feel Real Estate is the most awful where all folks are snookered -  well that will all come - it is hard to stay within the boundaries of these first few chapters once you have read the book but we must - only to say Helen Simonson seems to have taken the broad approach to most of her characters with comments that remind us more of a 1920s or 30s setting  -

David Niven huh  :-*
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Gumtree

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #75 on: April 05, 2011, 10:51:03 AM »
Barbara - upon reflection that wouldn't be Roger - he doesn't hunt does he? I think it must be Ferguson. One of the others older men must be Lord Dagenham - the tweedy jackey on the left for him.

A mature David Niven  :D
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pedln

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #76 on: April 05, 2011, 02:07:50 PM »
Barbara, that’s a wonderful picture.  I love it, but don’t see the Major – all the men are too “portly” to be the Major.  I like the comparison to David Niven.  The Major is slendor, shorter than Roger, and has a mustache, and somewhere his hair was referred to as “brisly.”  Perhaps similar to a crew cut?

My brother has always been interested in guns, even belonged to the “Rifle Club” when he was in high school.  (Can you imagine such a thing nowadays?)  So I asked him about the Churchills.  He didn’t know much about them, but had this to say about British shooting with an explanation about why the “pair”  is important.  If he’s using any stereotypes, I apologize for him.

Quote
As I understand it, the British "sportman" would stand still in a field while a bunch of "bush-beaters" would walk towards the "sportman" and flush out the birds who would then fly up and away from the "beaters" and towards the "sportman" who would then proceed to shoot the birds. Since the shotgun (which was always double-barreled) held only two shells, the "sportman" could only fire twice. He would then hand the spent shotgun to his "loader," who would then hand him another fully loaded shotgun. The "sportman" would continue shooting, practically uninterupted, with that shotgun and then -- well you get the picture.
 
That's why those shotguns were made in "matched pairs." Remember, this type of "hunting" started in the 19th century or earlier. Today, of course, with self-loading semiautomatic shotguns -- well, who knows.


ginny

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #77 on: April 05, 2011, 02:49:52 PM »
That's interesting, Pedln. Here's a pair of Purdey Shotguns at $120,000 to give some idea of the price, and 9 others  from cnn.com's money:

 http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/fortune/0801/gallery.collectorguns.fortune/index.html

In looking for a pair of Churchills  I found this on the Sotheby's page which I thought was interesting:


Quote
Significant items that have passed through his hands include many guns built for Royalty including HRH. The Duke Of Windsor's pair of 16-bore Purdey guns and the Pair of 12-bore Churchill guns that he acquired within days of first meting Wallis Simpson

http://www.sothebys.com/app/live/dept/DepartmentGlobal.jsp?dept_id=52


So these appear to be high end collector's items. I have found some  old pairs of Churchills but so far they refuse to divulge the price or the auction information unless I register.  

Frybabe

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #78 on: April 05, 2011, 04:58:59 PM »
Quote
My brother has always been interested in guns, even belonged to the “Rifle Club” when he was in high school.  (Can you imagine such a thing nowadays?)

I saw a news clip just this morning about a Dish Satellite shop owner in Montana(?) who is giving away a gun (or a $50 coupon for pizza, apparently good at any Pizza joint in town) with certain Dish Network packages. His business is booming. Where he is, says he, the high schools have even been known to hold gun raffles. Radio Shack Corporate is taking a dim view of his sale and has asked him to stop the offer. He did not recommend the offer be duplicated in certain states/cities.

JoanP

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Re: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1
« Reply #79 on: April 05, 2011, 05:50:56 PM »
I'm going to go back and reread that section more carefully.  How did the Major come to promise he'd bring the pair with him to the shoot?  Who brought up Bertie's gun? Was it Lord Dagenham, trying to impress the American?

Great pictures, Ginny.  And we see that the pair are worth so much more than just the one.  

Pedln, the bird hunting sounds almost as bad as the duck hunting.  Except Lord DD trained those ducks, since they were ducklings, to come to his whistle.  They trusted him.  That's worse than the "beaters" directing the birds to the path of the hunters.

Let's think about some questions for Helen Simonson on Monday.  I would be interested to hear about where she learned about the  Churchills and her feelings on this type of hunting. I know Barbara has some questions about the guns too.   If you will post questions right here, I'll get them into the link in the heading..will add a few more right now...

You do know that Helen will be here at 11am EDT on Monday, the 11th, right?  Do you think you can be here?  Hope so.