Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson - April 1

[JoanP]

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Major Pettigrew's Last Stand  by Helen Simonson

April Book Club Online  

"When Major Pettigrew, a retired British army major in a small English village, embarks on an unexpected friendship with the widowed Mrs. Ali, who runs the local shop, trouble erupts to disturb the bucolic serenity of the village and of the Major’s carefully regimented life.   "As the Major and Mrs. Ali discover just how much they have in common, including an educated background and a shared love of books, they must struggle to understand what it means to belong and how far the obligations of family and tradition can be set aside for personal freedom. Meanwhile, the village itself, lost in its petty prejudices and traditions, may not see its own destruction coming."  New York Times   (best seller) "...a wry and witty love story set in a little English village where small town prejudices, and race and religious intolerances are alive and well. With gentle insight, the author captures the thrill of falling in love after 60 and the disruption romance can introduce into a well-settled life."

Discussion Schedule:

April 1-7 ~ Chapters 1-6]
April 8 - April 15 ~ Chapters 7-12

(E-readers ~ Last lines in Chapter 12:
 ..."he could not help but register a certain sense of exhilaration at having thrust himself into the heart of Mrs. Ali's life in such an extraordinary manner.  He was tempted to celebrate his own boldness with a large glass of Scotch."

*****

Some Topics for Consideration
April 8-15 ~ Chapters 7-12

1. The two  guns look nothing  like a pair."   What does the condition of Bertie's gun say about what they meant to him?  Would you say that Bertie and the Major's son, Roger,  share the same disregard for the history of the Churchills?

2. Is it accurate to say that Mrs. Ali  admires the Major's "Englishness," his house, his books, while he admires her for herself, apart from her Pakistani heritage?

3.  "One begins to accept, at a certain age, that one has already made all the friends to which one is entitled."  Do you find this to be true?  Can you share examples of the grief and loneliness that seem to permeate these pages?  

4. How many times have you noticed the Major unfavorably comparing Grace with Mrs. Ali?   Why is Mrs. Ali happy to have been asked to help with the dance at the club?  Why does this upset the Major?

5.  Why does the Major feel sorry for the doctor's wife, Saadia Khan?  Did you feel any sympathy towards her?  What moved the Major to invite Mrs. Ali to attend the dance as his guest?

6.  Is Mrs. Augerspier sharper than she appears to be - or is she another old woman about to be taken advantage of by the younger man?  Do you have any idea why Roger is interested in this house or the furniture?

7. What has caused  the ladies to change the theme of the dance from the Mughal to the Maharajah to focus  on the Major's father's service in India? What do you think of Roger in the role of Colonel Pettigrew?

8.  How will the Major adapt to the changes that are coming to the undisturbed peace of the village? Do you see a change in him already?  How does  Amina's appearance on the scene signal change?  

Related Links:
 SeniorLearn's Questions for Helen Simonson;    NPR's Interview with the Author;  Churchill Rifles - "World's Finest" ;    Churchill Method: Rules of Shooting;

  

 Discussion Leaders:  Barbara & JoanP

[BarbStAubrey]

That is quite the price attached to the value of those guns Ginny - my word...and the Duke Of Windsor - what did you think of his and Wallis Simpson's portrayal in the King's Speech?

Frybabe what a difference in gum culture according to where you live - I remember one summer at Girl Scout camp a guy wondered into camp from the river who was canoing "at Night!!!" after midnight - Thank goodness the Director and 2 other councilors had guns in their tent that where trained on him with a camp full of young girls till the Sheriff could arrive from the other side of the county - it took him over an hour to get to us. That was a silent and tense hour.  Frybabe, you bring back memories - my sister and I belonged to a gun club when we were high school age - we did learn how to carry and shoot safely and all the protocol of walking in a field with a gun.   Two years later she was a postulant with the Dominicans.  

Joan I will clean up my question and leave it with your - I'm just back - always there is a fluff up just before you leave so I was tied up this afternoon.

[JoanP]

I think it is important to note that the Major is well aware of the value of the pair - around  100,000 pounds he says (that is about $160,000)  He knows this, but has no interest or intention of selling them.  Wants to keep them in the family, give them to Roger to leave to his children.  Wonder what Sandy would think of that?  (Who said she thought Sandy was "nice"?  Really?  I'd like to know what you are seeing that I don't...)

[BarbStAubrey]

Joan she cleans up...

[rosemarykaye]

Re the bird shooting - in Scotland it is well known that the pheasants (who are reared in coops, then on the estate) are well fed so that they can only fly low, to make sure that the wealthy Londoners (etc) who come up to shoot them don't miss. 

My friend lives in the west of Scotland, where the shooting is mainly grouse - many local people, including her own children, work as beaters during the season - it is hard work as you are ploughing through heather all day, but it is well paid, especially for an impecunious student.

Dogs - usually labs - accompany the shoot to retrieve the game.  The dogs are generally kept by the gamekeeper and live outside the house in kennels.

All the person who is paying has to do is take the loaded gun from the loader, point and shoot. 

There will be a huge picnic lunch brought along by the estate, which will be eaten from the back of the inevitable Landrover, and will certainly bear no resemblance to school packed lunches   

The estates make a great deal of money out of these events, together with the fishing (- although these days they also run lots of other money making events, like weddings).  Because of this the pheasants have to be protected at all costs - something that we used to find mildly annoying, as for several months in spring all dogs have to be kept on leads so that the baby pheasants are not disturbed - then a short while later they are shot at by fat businessmen   .

Rosemary

[Gumtree]

Mrs Ali seems just perfect - but we need to remember we are only seeing her from the Major's perspective. I guess that goes for everyone else in the story too! Are the Major's observations on the other characters reliable? I see him as being biassed on some issues.

The Major seems to be enamoured of Sir Edmund Hillary who together with the Sherpa Tensing was the first to reach the summit of Mt. Everest.
There are already a couple of mentions of Hillary in the book - one where Pettigrew takes out the jumper Roger had given him as a gift and tells us that in return he had given Roger 'a waxed cotton rain hat from Liberty and a rather smart leather edition of Sir Edmund Hillary's account of Everest' '

The other Hillary reference was in regard to a small staircase 'which loomed as steep and impassable as Everest's Hillary Steps - The Hillary Step is well known and again, Hillary and Tensing Norgay were the first to climb it:

The Hillary Step from NOVA Everest website

The most famous physical feature on Everest, the Hillary Step, at 28,750 feet, is a 40-foot spur of snow and ice. First climbed in 1953 by Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay, the Hillary Step is the last obstacle barring access to the gently angled summit slopes. Modern-day climbers use a fixed rope up here to ascend the Hillary Step. We marvel at Hillary and Tenzing Norgay's achievement in climbing this impressive mountaineering obstacle without fixed ropes and using what is now considered primitive ice climbing equipment

I've been trying to get the link to the photo but can't get it to work.

the Major would have only been in his mid teens in 1953 when Everest was finally climbed so I guess it's not surprising that it has captured his imagination. Wikipedia alone has around 80 books listed about these two mountaineers.

[Steph]

Off at elder hostel. But I finished the book on the iPad. on the naming. My sons friends call me mrs. I am not overfomd of being called by my first name by children. But it is better than HON or LOV by sn
Rangers.

[rosemarykaye]

My mother always used to bridle at being called "Dear" by bus drivers, etc.  And now it is happening to me   .  My children always call me Mum.  Young children call their mothers Mummy, but only the aristocracy (or those who aspire to it) continue this practice in adulthood.  My cousins were allowed to call their parents by their Christian names (this was in the 1960s/70s) - my parents were scandalised (cousins were allowed to do a lot of things that I wasn't!).

Rosemary

[JoanP]

That's it, Gum!  

Mrs Ali seems just perfect - but we need to remember we are only seeing her from the Major's perspective. I guess that goes for everyone else in the story too! Are the Major's observations on the other characters reliable? I see him as being biassed on some issues

We've already seen Roger in a negative light, and Mrs. Ali can do no wrong.  Her dress, her appearance, her ability to say the right thing at the right moment, willingness to make him comfortable, even if it means going out of her way.   Too accomodating!  Makes you wonder why, doesn't it?

As Gum points out, this is how the Major sees her. The Major is our narrator, our unreliable narrator.  I suppose we are each "unreliable narrators"  of our own stories.

[JoanP]

I too noticed the references to Sir Edmund Hillary.  Thank you for the providing the time frame, Gum.  Sir Hillary's feat captured the imagination of the teen age boy.  Sir Hillary was his hero.  How does he compare with his father, I wonder? 

I can't find the Nova web site with the photo of Mt. Everest, Gum,  but here's another I did find.  If we look at the photo and realize the enormity of Sir Hillary's accomplishment, we can understand the impression it made on young Pettigrew.
I'm curious how this hero-worship will tie into the story... Do you have any ideas?  H. Simonson builds her story on the details.  None seem to be throw-aways.  Since she mentions Sir Hillary's conquest more than once, it has to be there for a purpose, don't you think?

[JoanP]

Rosemary, thank you for explaining how grouse hunting, bird hunting continues to sustain an estate.  When you refer to the "estate", you are talking about the property of a rich man with the beaters, the villagers working for him and the hunters paying for the privilige of shooting the birds or ducks or whatever.   This is a way to maintain the estate, then.  The Major has a date to hunt on Lord Dagenham's estate with wealthy businessmen.  I hardly think they pay Lord DD for a day at the hunt, but wonder what he gets out of it.  Are there many estates left in England (or Scotland) today - that are self-supporting?

How does the Major, an army man,  feel about this form of hunting?

[JoanP]

Stephanie, I was beginning to feel in the minority, regarding the first-name calling -by the young.  My own boys call me "Mom" - and their children various forms of "Grandma"  (Meanma the four in NC call me.  My boys' friends always refer to me as Mrs. Pearson...never first name.  The daughters-in-law have trouble with this.  I have asked them to call me either by my first name - or as MomP, rather than Mrs. Pearson - (since that's their name too.)  One of them cannot call me by my first name - and Mom didn't come easily to her either.  For a while there she didn't call me anything - until her first child was born - then she started calling me "grandma."  Another one started calling me "Mommy" right off the bat - even before she married my son.  I won't say how I felt about that.  Another one started calling me by my first name, until she noticed that my son called her parents Mr. and Mrs....and so she stopped calling me by my first name.  I don't think she really knows what to call me at this point.  As I write this, I can see that I probably haven't expressed my preferences clearly enough to them, have I?
I sign emails and cards MomP....

[rosemarykaye]

Joan - there are several estates on Deeside that are run in this way,with the heriditary family still living in the big house, the children being sent away to boarding school.  Glen Tanar, Kincardine, Finzean (pronounced Finggan!), Dunecht (not on Deeside but nearby), all come to mind. 

http://www.glentanar.co.uk/the_estate.html

http://www.kincardinecastle.com/kincardineestate/aboutus.html

http://www.finzean.com/


The area is very feudal and I had never come across anything like it before I moved there.  Most of the village houses are still owned by the laird, and many of the villagers would be working for him, although some would have their own employment and just rent from him.

There would also still be big working estates in northern England - Yorkshire, etc - but I don't know anything about how they are run.  I agree, Lord Dagenham would not be charging the people on his shoot - I suppose his motivation is partly networking and partly showing off.

Rosemary

[JoanP]

Oh wow, I would love to spend a holiday at those cottages at Glentanar!  Am I to understand that to keep up the estate, they are rented out?  That would make sense.  

I read in the link you provided that the Farquharson family  has owned that land for sixteen generations!  "Their Finzean Estate extends over several thousand acres, encompassing farmland, moorland and forestry. The land is managed by the Farquharsons as an integrated family business, with an interest in conservation and the preservation of a viable community."

It is difficult to understand how any one family could keep up such estates, castles, land these days - unless of course, they are the royal family. You write that  "most of the village houses are still owned by the laird."  A Laird like  Lord Dagenham?  How does he keep his estate we have to wonder.  You write " that his motivation is partly networking and partly showing off."  Let's talk about the networking aspect.  Clearly he did not intend to invite the Major to the upcoming hunting party.  He never invited the locals.  He only invited wealthy business men.
How do the wealthy businessmen help him?  What good does networking with them to?

[salan]

We lived in Louisiana for 9 yrs when my daughter was small.  Her friends always called me "Miss Sally".  I kind of liked that.  Less formal than Mrs., but still respectful.  I think that Miss if front of a first name is a southern tradition.

From the book, I got the impression that Double D was hoping to do business with the rich American; thus the hunt and inviting Major to come with his guns.  Lord D wanted to impress Ferguson.

I think the Major felt like the guns should not have been separated; and that he, as the oldest (and a military man) should have inherited both of them.  His brother did not value them.  In earlier times, entire  estates went to the oldest son.  That kept the "name" and the estates intact.

JoanP--I don't think Mrs. Ali was too accommodating.  That was her upbringing and part of her culture--polite and accommodating to males!
Sally

[rosemarykaye]

Sally (Miss Sally! - I love that) - I think you are right, the whole estate did pass to the oldest son.  The second son went into the army or into Holy Orders.  I think this was mentioned in Brideshead Revisted, wasn't it?  Bridie gets the estate, and Sebastian leads a largely pointless existence until near the end of the book.

Rosemary

[CallieOK]

Poor Major - having to endure the women's Annual Dance committee in the Golf Club. (Chapter 6) This part reminds me of the musical number from "Music Man", when all the "ladies" sing "Pick a little, talk a little, cheep cheep cheep" while wearing hats with feathers that bobble like chicken crests.  And Helen Simonson does use the word "clucking" to describe the Village Ladies in Chapter 1.

Since Nancy's death, I think the Major has become a stuffy old fuddy-duddy.
 
From Chapter 5:
"It was the sixties and (Nancy) was young and thought love meant living on baked beans and the moral directives of folk music. ...She made him laugh, too. She made him sneak off his base to see her. She made him wear improbable shirts and bright socks off duty."

However, I wonder if Nancy had changed after their marriage?
From Chapter 1:   "(Nancy) had been fond of her books and of little chamber concerts in village churches."Had he turned her into his idea of a "proper" wife - or is he just remembering those qualities the way he wants to?

Now she's been gone for six years - and he's right back to the way he was before Nancy came into his life - until Mrs. Ali comes along.

From Chapter 1:  "(Nancy) had left him alone to endure the blunt tweedy concerns of the other women of their acquaintance.  (Mrs. Ali) was a butterfly to their scuffle of pigeons."  

[JoanP]

Miss Sally!  That is very interesting.  My son has lived in TN and now NC.  They have four little children.  When the neighboring children come to play, they all call my DIL, "Miss Mandy" and what sounds funny to me, they call my son, "Mr. Adam." I have some questions about this.  If I were not their grandmother, would they call me, "Miss Joan"?  Does anyone know the answer to this?  If it is a sign of respect...hey, perhaps my DILs would like to call me that - Miss Joan.  Please, someone from the South, let me know?  Is Miss + First name used with people of a certain age?
Let's take that a step further.  If Roger's Sandy had been from the South, would she be correct to call the Major, "Mister Ernest"?

*****
Hmmm, I'm wondering what sort of business would the Laird be able to do with the rich American - also from New Jersey.  Wasn't he in Real Estate?

*****
I do remember the Major saying that he would be lying if he said he had not been upset when his father left the guns, one to each son.  He felt they BOTH should have been left to him.  So the gripe is not really with his brother and his family, but with his own father....

*****

I don't think Mrs. Ali was too accommodating.  That was her upbringing and part of her culture--polite and accommodating to males!

You're probably right, Miss Sally, but she's every man's dream come true, isn't she? Accommodating!

[JoanP]

Callie, I'm so glad you brought up Nancy.  I've just been thinking about her - wondering  how she brought up such a fuddy duddy of a son!  And now that you mention it, how did  this free-spirited Nancy turn into the "proper wife" attending chamber music concerts at the village church?  Something doesn't make sense here.  Maybe you're on to something - the Major as the unreliable narrator - with a selective memory.

Oh ho...the dance at the club and the tweedy concerns of the ladies of the village.  Just  love the description of them as clucking pigeons, though I'm mixing metaphors.  Do pigeons cluck?  I think we're going to have fun with the Mughal-themed dance - though I'm not certain what the Mughal Empire was.  Are you?  I think of them as Indians.  The Major was born in India, but Mrs. Ali comes from a Pakistani family.  Can anyone fill in here?

I'm wondering about Ms. Simonson's connection to Indian/Pakistani history.  Shall we ask her?

 

[CallieOK]

Joan,  The first time someone called me "Miss Callie", I thought 'WHAT??  I'm not old enough to be a "Miss____!"  Think of "Miss Daisy" (as in the movie "Driving...") and "Miss Ellie" from the t v show 'Dallas'.

I hear many Day Care leaders called "Miss (First Name)" at The History Center - but not school teachers.

When I laughingly told my son that his newly graduated high school friend/classmate had called me by my first name, my son threatened to find him and punch him in the nose.   I thought it was just a way of "feeling his oats" and was funny.  However, I don't remember that he did it again.

I'd like to read Ms Simonson's comments on Indian/Pakistani relations, too.

[pedln]

I'm wondering about Ms. Simonson's connection to Indian/Pakistani history.  Shall we ask her?

Absolutely.  And we might ask her if she had to do much research for her book -- about the guns, and the Mughal Empire, etc.

Re: on the names.  My in-laws lived on St. Croix, Virgin Islands, and when I went there for the first time in the 1950's they probably weren't any older than my kids are now -- forty something.  Among their friends and contemporaries was a much older couple, native islanders, born there, parents of one of the other couples, and everyone in my in-laws group called them Aunt Annie and Uncle Malcolm.  It was much less formal than Mr and Mrs, but also a form of respect.

I'm thinking about Bertie again, and I'm thinking he had some resentments, especially after he and Marjorie had spent the little that was in his trust funds.  I don't doubt that Bertie expressed some of these resentments to Marjorie and that may be why she doesn't show much warmth towards the Major.  I wonder if anyone ever called him Ernie.

[salan]

"Miss" in front of a first name denotes a certain kind of familiarity.  If you were friends with the parents of children; then the children called you "Miss" Sally, etc.  Teachers were never referred to by first names, but day care leaders frequently were.  Children usually referred to older adults (grandparents of friends, etc) as Mrs.--unless the adult requested otherwise.

Simonson states "It's an unexpected part of being British that, no matter the rhetoric, we maintain an enduring sense of connection to the Indian subcontinent."  Is that still true today??
Sally

[rosemarykaye]

Yes, I think it is true - at least as far down as my generation, but not sure about my children's - theirs is a very different world.  We still have absolutely thousands of Indian restaurants, and some survey someone did showed that our most favourite take away is chicken korma or something (it's not mine).

  I don't know if other countries have so many "curry houses" as they would be referred to in the UK.  And of course they vary hugely from town to town - Aberdeen, with only a very small Indian population, still has quite a few curry houses, but they are fairly mainstream.  If, however, you go somewhere like Bradford or Birmingham, both of which have huge Indian (and Pakistani) populations, you find much more variety - from simple establishments where the food is eaten with chapatis and no cutlery, to very up market restaurants indeed.  When I was a young child, the only Indian restaurant I knew about was Veereswamy's in Regent Street - we would never in a million years have gone there, (a) because it was "foreign" and (b) because it was probably very expensive, but I believe it was popular and quite upmarket.  Nowadays London must have zillions of Indian and Pakistani restaurants.  Unfortunately it has become the tradition for groups of drunken men to end a evening of pub crawling in a curry house - showing off to their friends how hot they can take their curry, no doubt before depositing it back onto the street later on.  They are often extremely rude to the restaurant staff, which does not make for good cross-cultural relations.

I would love to go on one of the many train holidays across India that are advertised in our press.  Unfortunately husband is not keen.

Rosemary

[JoanP]

Sally, I'm a close relation to my daughter-in-law, right?  Is it all right to ask her to call me "Miss Joan" - like Miss Daisy, Miss Ellie, as Callie suggests? I think I like it.   "Auntie Joan" won't due and I've already told her not to call me "Mrs. Pearson."  Although in an emergency, I bet she'd call me that...

Pedln, I can't even see his mother calling little Ernest, "Ernie" - and yet everyone calls Bertie by the familiar.  Is it a sign of disrespect.  Do you understand that Bertie didn't serve in the military?  Do you wonder why not?

[pedln]

JoanP, what do your other DILs call you?  Wouldn't you want them all to call you the same?

[JoanP]

Well, one calls me "Grandma" - didn't call me anything until her first child was born.  Another called me "Mommy" until her first child started calling me "Meanma" and now all those kids call me that.  And Will isn't married...living in London.  Hope he doesn't find a bride over there - and never come home.  Selfish of me, I know.


Those aregood questions. I'll go add them to the list now.


Pedln: we might ask her if she had to do much research for her book -- about the guns, and the Mughal Empire, etc.
Callie: A question about Ms. Simonson's connection to Indian/Pakistani history. 
Joan:  Any personal first hand knowledge or experience or all from research?

 I hope you are all able to make it here at 11 am EST on the 11th when Helen Simonson comes in.  I'm thinking if you are here you can post your own question to her...(or ask a new one.)  I'll let you know ahead of time what you asked if you've forgotten.
Since Barbara's not here, I'll ask her question for her.  If anyone else can't make it, I'll do the same.  But you must admit, it would be better if the questions come from different sources of those present in the discussion...rather than to see them all come from me!

Can we do a little homework today...each one find a little bit of information on the Mughal Empire?  I think we'd understand the story better if we knew what we were reading about?

Sally asks if It's still true today that "an unexpected part of being British that, no matter the rhetoric, we maintain an enduring sense of connection to the Indian subcontinent."
- Rosemary, the information on the Indian restaurants is invaluable.  Starting tomorrow we're going to go inside the Taj Mahal Take-out and experience some real Indian cooking.  We'll be considering chapters 7-12 this coming week.  Here's a very basic question - is there a difference been Indian and Pakistani restaurants?  Was this asked before - and I've forgotten?  I vaguely remember the question coming up in the Prediscussion.  I remember having a meal in an Indian restaurant in London - asking for nan - bread, and then a refill, thinking it was free with the meal...very, very expensive nan it was!

 I wasn't going to bring this in here, but when you mention a train holiday across India, I just have to say that my youngest, who lives in London these days, is being sent to India for ten days in May by his company.  Not by train, but it's India!

He's been on the BBC a number of times as an energy specialist, talking about the future of nuclear energy.  I'm going to leave a link here to his Interview on the Bloomberg Financial report last week.   (Of course you don't have to listen to it but_I'm so proud of him because he remained calm in the interview, even though he was in a room by himself with the camera, the Interviewer at another site, shouting questions in his ear, questions he did not know in advance would be asked.  Here it is...from his proud mama.
 
http://www.bloomberg.com/video/67800832

[CallieOK]

Joan, Proud Mamas are certainly entitled to share such interesting experiences!

How long does Helen Simonson plan to be with us on Monday?   It may be hard to type/send questions and read all the comments at the same time.

I chuckled all the way through the Major's experience at the Taj Mahal Take-Out.  Bless his heart; his world is certainly changing!!

[salan]

JoanP, have you ever told your dil what to call you?  My father in law never told me what to call him.  I was not comfortable calling him "Dad", and Mr. seemed too formal.  I just waited until we had a child and then I referred to him as Grandaddy.  I remember wishing he would tell me what to call him.  I think Miss Joan would be fine, also Mama Joan or Mother Joan (depending on what your son calls you).  Anyway, just tell her what you prefer.  She'll probably be glad you did.

The major stated that after his brother died..."his grief was sharper than in the past few days.  He had forgotten that grief does not decline in a straight line or along a slow curve.  Instead, it was almost ss if his body contained a big pile of garden rubbish full both of heavy lumps of dirt & sharp thorny brush that would stab him when he least expected it."  I lost my husband 2 year ago and there are days when my grief hits me like this.  It made me wonder whether Simonson had experienced the loss of someone close. 

Sally

[CallieOK]

I must be more informal than most of you.  I called my mil by her first name (as did her sil) and my dils call me by my first name.  I have jokingly threatened to cause bodily harm if anyone refers to me as "Mother (first name)"!
The dil who is the mother of my grandchildren chose what they would call me.  She was so fond of her friend's grandmother that she wanted me to be called the same thing.  It's not what I might have chosen but I wouldn't have changed or questioned her decision for the world.
We all chuckle when my son says, "Mom" and we both answer.

[JoanP]

Callie, I'd take "Mom"...I did talk to my first daughter in law that, Sally - but she thought her own mother might be hurt.  Her own mother lived quite a distance away and DIL was living in our house, while working when  my son was away at school.  She couldn't say "Joan" either.  I suggested we come up with our own name...Milly (for mother in law) and then my favorite - Phoebe...for no special reason.  She tried that, but it just didn't set well after a while.  To this day, she doesn't call me anything...except "Grandma"...

I'm still thinking about Bertie and the Major.  Bertie and Ernest...

Look here, look what I found -

The Mughal Empire  was an empire that at its greatest territorial extent ruled parts of Afghanistan, Balochistan and most of the Indian Subcontinent between 1526 and 1857. The empire was founded by the Mongol leader Babur in 1526, when he defeated Ibrahim Lodi, the last of the Afghan Lodi Sultans at the First Battle of Panipat, where they used gunpowder for the first time in India. The Mughal Empire is known as a “gunpowder empire.” The word "Mughal" is the Indo-Aryan version of "Mongol." Babur was a descendant of Chingis Khan. The Mughals retained aspects of Mongal culture well into the sixteenth century, such as the arrangement of tents around the royal camp during military maneuvers.

Will be back in the morning...

[JoanP]

The major stated that after his brother died..."his grief was sharper than in the past few days.  He had forgotten that grief does not decline in a straight line or along a slow curve.  Instead, it was almost ss if his body contained a big pile of garden rubbish full both of heavy lumps of dirt & sharp thorny brush that would stab him when he least expected it."  I lost my husband 2 year ago and there are days when my grief hits me like this.  It made me wonder whether Simonson had experienced the loss of someone close. Sally

The author certainly expressed those feelings well, as if she has experienced such loss and grief, first hand, Sally notices that.  Also lonelieness - the emptiness - how does she put it, "lonely in the world."

Today we move forward to examine chapters 7 - 12.  Lots of movement in the story now.  Will be back soon to hear what you have to say.

[MaryPage]

My home town, once quite small and now quite large, is tucked away in the beautiful soft hills and blue mountains of the Valley of Virginia, also known as The Shenandoah.  I do not live there anymore, and that is alright, as there is now no one there for me.

I grew up calling the older generation "Miss."  My two best friends were the daughters of my mama's best friends.  I called their mothers "Miss Rachel" and "Miss Caroline."  They called my mama "Miss Evelyn."

I have no idea where this comes from.  We were also raised to say:  "Yes Ma'am" and "No Ma'am."  Living elsewhere as a young married adult, I heard some women disparage this title using as demeaning to the person who was using it.  Me?  I asked myself in astonishment.  Me demeaned?

Nope.  Never could figure the whole tradition;  but I can tell you it is Southern and was the same wherever I traveled and visited in other states in the South.  I never understood there was anything but perfection in it until I encountered disdain for it when I was older and elsewhere.

I like looking back.  The town is not the same.  Everyone I knew is dead and gone.  I would give anything to be a girlchild again and for five or ten minutes sashay up our main street from my house to the post office to pick up the family mail.  I'd greet each person met with a "Good Morning, Miss Ida!  And how are you today?"  Changing the name as called for, of course.

[pedln]

I'm in the midst of this week's selection.  Well, it does sound like there had been lots of conversations about inheritance at the house of Bertie before he died.  And perhaps a bit of a break between the brothers.  It sounds like the Major wanted to see more of Bertie and family, than they wanted to see of him.

But I was amused by the Major's fast talking with Marjorie and Jemima (we know what she wants and why).  At least now, he's the bird in the hand.

[Laura]

Looking at the big picture, I am struck by three things regarding the characters in the book. 

First they seem to be very stereotypical.  Frankly, I have found this aspect of the book to be a disappointment. 

Second, they are in marked contrast to each other.  For example, the older generation contrasts with the younger generation.  The English are contrasted with the Pakistanis and the Americans.  The men are contrasted with the women. 

Third, the characters are interacting and having relationships with people who are outside the comfort zones of those around them.  For instance, Roger seems uncomfortable with his father’s relationship with Mrs. Ali.  Major is uncomfortable with Roger’s relationship with his girlfriend.  Mrs. Ali’s nephew seems uncomfortable with her interactions with customers.

I do think the story is enjoyable, but I would like to see some more depth from these characters.

[Laura]

The question I have for the author concerns things that happen at the end of the book.  Is there a way to ask such a question with a spoiler alert of some sort or should we limit ourselves to the first 12 chapters and general questions?

[JoanP]

The question I have for the author concerns things that happen at the end of the book.  Is there a way to ask such a question with a spoiler alert of some sort or should we limit ourselves to the first 12 chapters and general questions?

Laura, that's a good question.  We don't know how many will actually be here in the discussion at 11am EDT on Monday.  We might not have much time to spend on each question if there is a crowd and the questions folks have been asking really don't go to the end of the book.  I think we need to address those questions first.  

On the other hand, we don't want to miss asking her your question.  You do ask such good questions - Does the question itself contain a spoiler?

Tomorrow I plan to send H.S. the list of questions asked so far (you can see them under "Related Links"  in the heading here.)  How about I ask her what she thinks?  The best scenario would be if she would write an answer to your question and email it to me to put in the discussion at the end of the discussion?
Can we talk about this some more?  What do you all think?  And if you have finished the book, are there questions you would like to  see answered by the author that cover the second half of the book, not the first?

[JoanP]

I like looking back.  The town is not the same.  

 Mary Page, you know things have changed , but still you like looking back, remembering the good things.  Is this selective memory, do you think?  Do you remember the bad things that happened in that town - Or just the pleasant ones?

I'm wondering if the author remembers what it's like living in a small town, or at least a town that has changed much from when she was a child.  The Major is experiencing change in his town - and he's never left it!  That's even harder than going away and coming back looking for the old days.

Laura, yes there are lots of stereotypes here, aren't there?  Most of them the Major's?  We've already concluded that this is his story - the village and its inhabitants are seen through his eyes.  Is it natural that this would lead to stereotyping?  It's the way he sees the world.   Would you say it's true that stereotyping is more typical in a small village like this, more so  than in a big city like London?  Maybe it's not the H.S's stereotyping  that you  find disappointing, but the fact that stereotyping goes on at all in this  little town?

And those contrasts that you mention, ...do they all emphasize the change that is going on in the village - and beyond?  In society in general -  Generational, Gender, Racial...  Everything in flux.  How is the Major to keep up with the world?  Will he have to change too?

[JoanP]

Pedln, the issue of inheritance - the oldest child son inheriting everything.  That's something else that  is changing.  How do you feel about it?  Time for a change?
Of course Bertie's gun never did come with the directive for the family to hand it back to the Major if Bertie were to die first.  Will the Major have to come to terms with this?  Doesn't it seem as if he already has?  He's not concentrating on getting the gun back, so much as getting the gun from Marjorie for the hunt.  Restoring it first, of course.  This will not be easy - because brother Bertie did not take care of the old gun.  Do you see a parallel between the Major fast-talking Marjorie and Jemima into letting him take the gun to the hunt - and Roger fast-talking Mrs. Augerspier into selling him the house.  Why do you think he wants this house so badly?  Would you?

[MaryPage]

JoanP, at age 82 (well, next month), with everyone I knew gone and the town changed so much, I, of course, remember both the good and the bad things that happened.  But the things that happened are not at all important to me.  I do not wish to go back to the things that happened.  I do not wish to relive my life.  I want to see all of my dear, dear family members once again, and all of the folks who peopled that town.  Selective memory?  I don't think so.  Any author, of course, would be forced to use selective memory in choosing what to write about and what to leave out.  But my yearning memory is of the people I took for granted.  How I would love to see them all for just 60 seconds and throw my arms out as though to embrace them all and shout:  "I loved you!  I love you!  I remember you and I am thankful you were in my life!  I miss you all!"

That is what I mean.  Not an "Our Town" experience at all.  Just an ordinary me and them one.

[JoanP]

Wouldn't it be grand to get even a glimpse of those loved ones, Mary Page?  What you're describing sounds like what I think of as  heaven.

I'm not sure the Major is yearning to return to the past - yearning to see his father, even his wife.  He seems to have moved on, if one can ever really move on.  He's really feeling the loss of his younger brother - which is surprising because it seems these brothers haven't been that close for quite a while.  Is it the guns?  Does the Major resent the fact that his father left one to each of them?  Or is it the fact that the home went to the first son - to Ernest and Bertie resented that?  Or maybe it is Bertie's family that feels bitter about the fact that the older one gets the bulk of the family inheritance?
The Major seems to be the only one grieving for Bertie.  Is this another example of an "unreliable narrator"?  This is the Major's view of the situation, isn't it?